Open 159 - Lovers Mafia - Game over before 823

[Korts]

unvote

I still hold that camn's logic is bullshit, and whether or not she claims to "believe" in tells, ultimately the points she brings are supposed to be tells of alignment either way, because if they aren't, they're of no use to scumhunting.

SpyreX makes a reasonable case for Haylen feigning incompetency. I agree, having interacted with Haylen extensively, that she has better abilities than she wants us to believe. For whatever reason, she seems to be hiding behind her join date.

The 'Appealing to Authority' as you so nicely put it, is actually something my History teacher taught me at college on how to form arguments, and I think I would rather listen to somebody who has a PhD in that sort of thing rather than you. It is not an attempt at distancing from a mislynch, at all.

Uh, Haylen, that's stupid. The guy may have a PhD, but he doesn't play mafia, as far as I know. In this game we look for people trying to hide behind others' words, and you do exactly that, laying the blame for the content and structure of your arguments on out-of-game influences.

If you want to play properly, stop being so absurdly stubborn and accept that there are some people who know theory better than you. Appeal to authority is a classic scumtell full stop. Learn to think and decide for yourself.

Yeah, I don't agree with a bunch of stuff she's said, but I think she's reacting to pressure the way town would.

I am interested in a Korts lynch.
Also.. I agree with the above statement.

lulwut? You've been constantly grilling her. If you think she's reacting in a pro-town fashion, why do you keep at it?

I'm amused by camn committing a similar thing as I did with my Kmd vote. And I see her point about it being suspicious now.

Incog makes very valid points against camn.

re: your 247 reply to Incog's second question, you haven't addressed why you originally agree with Incog. Are you now claiming that you didn't see Haylen's responses as townly, after all?

re: your reply to Incog's first question in 247: this comment is pretty suspicious. Are you admitting to being lynch happy? If you expect Incog/me to be scum, why do you want

Haylen

lynched?

vote: camn

for the record, I think Haylen is town and just sloppy at theory. Haylen: holding back is bad play. You shouldn't downplay your abilities; holding your cards close to your chest doesn't refer to showing your abilities, it refers to showing your information.

[Haylen]

I agree, having interacted with Haylen extensively, that she has better abilities than she wants us to believe.

Really? what makes you say that?

And my teacher may not play mafia but she taught me how to form arguments, which are needed in mafia. Also, I thought the original problem was that I was using Tar as an example, he's a mafia player so why am I not allowed to use his ideas to help me form arguments?

I agree with you that camn's logic has been bad. And I would be happy either a kmd or camn lynch.

Camn

Of course you don't like the way I'm playing, I'm onto you and kmd. I am playing here exactly as I did in Cretin's, I am quite concerned that you can't see that considering you thought I was town for the first part of that game.

I have decided I am not going to write a really long rant like I did in cretin's because the majority of the stuff I wrote in there was silly. I need to be more responsible and play well now, if one of the newbie's i'm ICing decides to read this game and sees that as an example of how to play, then I will have failed as an IC and there will be loads of newbies thinking that's ok to do. So I now have to be sensible and play how I should've been playing from the start cause ICing is a big responsibility and I don't want to mess it up in any way possible including if they may be watching my other games to learn.

I am now going to make an attempt at writing a good analysis post.

[camn]

Are you now claiming that you didn't see Haylen's responses as townly, after all?

No, I do.. but it is a gradient. They aren't quite town ENOUGH.
Plus.. like when I said "Korts needed pressure" earlier... Haylen needs pressure. EVERYONE needs pressure at some point so we can gain information.
I think that goes to something of my underlying D-1 philosophy.
-Im not good at D1.
-I don't make good cases
-I rarely find scum.
I use Day 1 to build a lot of info on a lot of players, so that I can be more effective later on.
Can you show me the scum-motivation behind playing this way?

Are you admitting to being lynch happy? If you expect Incog/me to be scum, why do you want

Haylen

lynched?

a) Yes, I am a bloodthirsty whore.
b) If I am WRONG about Haylen, I would love for one of you guys to do something exceedingly scummy, expose your true nature to us all...so that we would win.... obv. I can afford to be wrong if it means a town win!

@ Haylen:
I don't really Meta much.
You know how you played in Cretins.
You know Incog and I are here.
thus, hypo-scum-you would obv imitate your play as town in cretins.
THUS, your meta defense is null and void.

What do you think about Kort's comments in 250?

[Korts]

Really? what makes you say that?

Scumchat theory debates, mostly, and your attitude.

And my teacher may not play mafia but she taught me how to form arguments, which are needed in mafia. Also, I thought the original problem was that I was using Tar as an example, he's a mafia player so why am I not allowed to use his ideas to help me form arguments?

Your teachers taught you how to use arguments in a rational environment. In this game, though, people have incentive to suspect and lynch each other for the smallest of tells, therefore you need a different approach than in a healthy RL debate.

You may use Tar's ideas, but don't hide behind his name when people don't agree with you. Use only ideas that you understand well enough to defend against attacks, and use only ideas that you

yourself

believe to be valid. Don't say things just because well-established players have said them before you.

b) If I am WRONG about Haylen, I would love for one of you guys to do something exceedingly scummy, expose your true nature to us all...so that we would win.... obv. I can afford to be wrong if it means a town win!

But since you suspect Haylen enough to have her lynched, why would hammering her be "something exceedingly scummy" in your eyes? Does Haylentown flipping town validate the otherwise worthless point against the hammering player?

No, I do.. but it is a gradient. They aren't quite town ENOUGH.
Plus.. like when I said "Korts needed pressure" earlier... Haylen needs pressure. EVERYONE needs pressure at some point so we can gain information.
I think that goes to something of my underlying D-1 philosophy.
-Im not good at D1.
-I don't make good cases
-I rarely find scum.
I use Day 1 to build a lot of info on a lot of players, so that I can be more effective later on.
Can you show me the scum-motivation behind playing this way?

It's not the overall play that has scum motivation, camn. Don't misrepresent the argument. The point was that you quoted Incog saying that Haylen's responses showed that she is town, and you said that you agreed with the sentiment. Then you went on to attack her again and again and again. The inconsistency is glaring, yet all you explain it with is that you only meant "more town than before". Why didn't you say so when quoting Incog? You quoted someone outright saying that Haylen is town, and you explicitly said that you agree full stop. That's all there is to it.

[camn]

You quoted someone outright saying that Haylen is town, and you explicitly said that you agree full stop. That's all there is to it.

Here.. I'll repost the exchange so that you can get it right.
I meant exactly what I said.
If you read carefully, you can see Incog isn't "outright saying" she is town.
I think Incog chose that line very carefully, so as to be accurate. He tends to do that.
And regardless of his meaning.. I agree with what was WRITTEN.

Yeah, I don't agree with a bunch of stuff she's said, but I think she's reacting to pressure the way town would.

I am interested in a Korts lynch.
Also.. I agree with the above statement.

But since you suspect Haylen enough to have her lynched, why would hammering her be "something exceedingly scummy" in your eyes?

I think it is clear that if Incog totally changed his tune and unexpectedly hammered.. that would be scummy, don't you? SO, to avoid your misrep.. it was the "concocting a case against Haylen" that I was particularly hoping to see. THAT would be the scummy part.

Your skimming is hurting your game, I think!
Or are you intentionally misunderstanding what I write?

What does the fact that I haven't suggest to you though?

It gives us all info for later on. Your position on Haylen is clear. I think this is a good thing, no?

PS.. why did Korts unvot ME, then re-vote ME in post 250?

[Haylen]

If my meta defense is null and void here, then surely yours is too.

I said I'm playing exactly the same as I did in Cretins

You said you suck at Day One ect and like to get information from players in every game.

How is this different?

In fact, you decribed your playstyle and then said my meta is null and void in the same post. Bit hypocritical, dont you think?

[Korts]

I am not skimming, camn. I read and interpret. You're right on your first point, Incog didn't call Haylen town, granted--he called her town in other posts. I probably confused the quote with other, clearer statements of alignment.

I think it is clear that if Incog totally changed his tune and unexpectedly hammered.. that would be scummy, don't you? SO, to avoid your misrep.. it was the "concocting a case against Haylen" that I was particularly hoping to see. THAT would be the scummy part.

Now you talk exclusively of Incog, when earlier you appeared to say that you hoped Incog

or I

would hammer. Would it be scummy if I made a plausible case against Haylen and hammered? Or were you specifically fishing for a hammer from Incog? (i hate the fact that "you" can be plural and singular as well. Your original post is 247, replying to Incog. Please clarify.)

[Korts]

EBWOP: hit submit instead of preview

PS.. why did Korts unvot ME, then re-vote ME in post 250?

Ehh, senility mostly. I unvoted because I had nothing more than a bad gut feeling; when I revoted you, I only remembered that I had unvoted, not the who of it, nor did I particularly care to think or look, since I had unvoted and it had little relevance.

Haylen 255 makes a fair point.

[camn]

In fact, you decribed your playstyle and then said my meta is null and void in the same post. Bit hypocritical, dont you think?

I am not using it as a defense.So no, I don't think that.
The difference is I am trying to clarify whay I am doing.
You are trying to 'prove' you are town because you did it as town once before.

My point is this:

If anyone knows their own town meta.. then they play to it. As scum or town.
You can't say "Oh look, I am playing like I always do as town".. that doesn't mean anything.

And I don't think I am saying that about myself at all.
But I don't think YOU(haylen) are actually trying to push towards clarity in this game. I think you are pushing the game towards LACK-of-clarity.. which would be of benefit only to scum.

@ Korts: it depends on the case you concocted And it depends on if you and he are scum, or if you and HER are scum, or if HE and SHE are!
You and incog could react to Haylen being at L-1 very differently, I think.... funny thing is, you have reacted the SAME.
I don't know what that means yet.. but someday we will!

[Haylen]

Why would I push the game towards lack of clarity? that is no way for town to win? I think you've gone on the defensive because you're being accused of being scum. In cretin's you reacted the same way there when me and Random called you out on it, as you did here on the first page when told you're scum.

In your last post you managed infer that everybody except yourself and Kmd are scum. What does that mean? Scum buddies?

I am not using my meta to prove I am town. Meta shouldn't be used as a full case. And I disagree with what you said about you not using it as a defense.

Explain how I am pushing towards lack of clarity? I've stated my case on kmd and some people believe me.

Why do you think I'm scum, camn? I'd be interested to know.

[Incognito]

Hmm. Korts reacting to Haylen's L-1 in a similar manner to how I did suggests to me that if Korts is scum, he would be likely scum with Haylen and Haylen only. I don't think he'd avoid this opportunity to hammer a hypo-Haylentown especially when he previously mentioned that he could possibly see her as scum. If Haylen's town, I think both scum would have to be on the wagon already at this point.

Yeah, I don't agree with a bunch of stuff she's said, but I think she's reacting to pressure the way town would.

Also.. I agree with the above statement.

No, I do.. but it is a gradient. They aren't quite town ENOUGH.

But I don't think YOU(haylen) are actually trying to push towards clarity in this game. I think you are pushing the game towards LACK-of-clarity.. which would be of benefit only to scum.

You're walking an extremely thin line in each of the above quotes, and I simply don't like it. It seems almost as if you can't decide on whether you want to consider her scummy or town-ish.

Also, your argument about "knowing one's meta and having the ability to play to it" doesn't really hold much weight -- I'm pretty sure that you personally are aware of how you appear to others when you're town, but you simply aren't as able to do the same as scum, which is why you've previously mentioned to me that you hate being scum so much. There are plenty of other players who are also aware of certain tells and certain tendencies they have as town but they too simply aren't able to emulate their town selves either.

By making these statements though, are you acknowledging that you do find Haylen's play here similar to her play in cr3t1n's?

[camn]

In your last post you managed infer that everybody except yourself and Kmd are scum.

You first.
Back up this statement, if you can.

This is a fine example of how you are pushing the game toward confusion.
You say stuff like that, that has little basis in reality, with no backup at all.

@ Incog..
I CERTAINLY know how to play to my town-meta
I don't really think she is playing the same.
And I don't like that she is using that game as her defense for this game...

That said, I admit it.. I am not convinced she is town OR scum.
But I get a scummier read from her than from You, KMD or Spyrex.
The real question is is she scummier than Korts... which is no question at all.. since we only need to lynch one scum

That said, I am probably going to let the isssue lie for a couple days.. I need to hear more from KMD and Spyrex.

[camn]

EBWOP

If Haylen's town, I think both scum would have to be on the wagon already at this point.

See.. THIS is what I am looking for.

We need a lynch today that gives us that kind of information, if they happen to flip town.
I don't know if Haylen is it or not.. but If we could be in a 5-person game with the town split in two, and both scum on one side... I sense a win.

[SpyreX]

Fine a summary of the things I've questioned you about:

1.) The "I'm metaing SpyreX" and then repeated use of me in a connection with your fight with KMD.
2.) The appeal to authority to push a case on KMD based on "tunnelling".
3.) The "I'm new" defense for mistakes
---3.a) The denial of the above.
4.) Meta as a defense for your actions via KMD.
5.) Meta as a defense for your actions via Camn.
6.) The KMD "scumslip" when in this game what he said is 120% accurate.
7.) The self-vote early enough to allow you to slide by and gain "town cred".
8.) The "spyrexspyrex" explosion as an attempt to build a strawman out of what I was saying to attack.
9.) Your massive amount of qualitative language in regards to KMD.
10.) Accusing me of lurking when I posted on the same page.

However I've got a new serious business question:

@Camn:

Just cuz a hypo-scum-haylen has yet to fold doesn't mean she won't!
And my not agreeing with her statements AS YET outweighs my town-reaction-read.

Am I getting MORE convinced she is scum? Not really. Am I SATISFIED as to her townieness? Not at all.
Thus, my vote stands.

That said, I admit it.. I am not convinced she is town OR scum.
But I get a scummier read from her than from You, KMD or Spyrex.

That is quite the change in opinion in a short amount of posting.

@Incog / Camn:

You have postulated that both the scum are now in the group of (Camn, KMD, SpyreX).

Camn has agreed to this as being useful information which means that the only logical pairing would be SpyreX / KMD in camn's mind.

However, I would have been willing to hammer KMD. In fact, I still would given the amount of lurking and no answer to my questions about his weird stance on "clearing townies".

So, I'm going to lay this out:

There is a scum between KMD and Haylen. However, I'd eat all the hats if they are scum together.

I'm leaning real hard at a Haylen/Korts team. It could be Haylen/Incog but Incog is the only zoom zoom town I see thus far.

If its KMD it HAS to be KMD/Camn.

[Incognito]

I wouldn't mind seeing some responses from Haylen in regard to the issues SpyreX mentioned above.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

262 from camn bugs me. A lot. For a number of reasons:

1)

Like SpyreX mentioned above, I got the sense that he would have been willing to hammer Kmd when he reached L-1 earlier. From a hypo-camntown perspective, if she agrees with what I've written about a poss-Haylentown and the scum being within the three people currently voting for her, then she'd be thinking the scum is Kmd/SpyreX... but how could she possibly think that given SpyreX's actions and her own comments about BOTH SpyreX and Kmd (she's said she thinks they're both town)?

2)

It's odd to me that camn has been

simultaneously

labeling me as scum but then agreeing with so many things I have to say.

3)

In 262, camn seems all too willing to lynch a townie just to "gain information for the next Day". Perhaps I'm an overachiever, but I want to lynch scum right here, right now. No Lovers Mafia game has ever had a scum lynch on Day 1, and I think it'd be way cool to be the first.

So camn, whatcha think of Kmd's current lurking situation?

[Kmd4390]

You earnt the scumpoint here because since either you, nor Incog told me it wasn't a scumtell in cr3t1n's, but are now. Therefore, you are lying.

a) I was scum in Cr3t1ns.... why would I want to help you?

Wait, so Haylen is using something Camn said before as scum as a reason why Camn's contradicting statement here is a lie? Why is Haylen still alive?

from my point of view we could lynch any of {Korts, camn, and Kmd} Today and if that doesn't win us the game, we could lynch either one of the other two Tomorrow.

I'd be fine with lynching Korts. I wouldn't follow with lynching myself (obviously) or Camn the next day though.

So camn, whatcha think of Kmd's current lurking situation?

You mean my site-wide V/LA from Thursday night to now?

This was my weekend:
Thursday night-worked from around 10PM until 6:40AM on Friday
Friday- worked 9AM to 2:30PM (didn't go home between 6:40 and 9AM because it's a 30 min drive and not worth the gas). Came home to sneak some sleep in. Woke up and left for work around 10PM with no time to eat/shower.
Saturday-Out of work at 6:30. Posted in a few games and left for a concert which I got to work from (didn't go home because I was late) at about 12:30 AM (was scheduled to work at 10PM).
Sunday-Out of work at about 6:30. Came home for real sleep for once. Stayed asleep until 8PM because I was so exausted. Then I had to work 45 minutes away from home at 10PM, so I went there.
Monday-Out of work at 6. Home around 7. Online around 7:30. Still here catching up on games. Plan on sleeping, but have to leave my house in about 7 hours.

^Damn, I was busy.

[camn]

1)

...From a hypo-camntown perspective, if she agrees with what I've written about a poss-Haylentown and the scum being within the three people currently voting for her......

Gosh this is a game of the finer points!
I want a lynch that

splits the scum into one group or another.

I, like I said, am unsure if Haylen is it.. but IF she IS.. I would bet the scum are in the OUT-group.
This is not a typical game.. a single mislynch is not that important to the scum, cuz they
a) get no nightkill
b) cannot afford to lose any scum.

The fact that you AND korts have already touched on the theory that hypo-scum EITHEROFYOU would have already hammered.... (implying, of course, you are town).. this seems WIFOM-erific to me. Your coordinated movements remind me that daytalk exists
Of course.. ALL OF THIS we should be talking about AFTER THE FACT.. but you guys are squeezing it out of me.

2)

It's odd to me that camn has been

simultaneously

labeling me as scum but then agreeing with so many things I have to say.

As if that has never happened to you before.

3)

Perhaps I'm an overachiever, but I want to lynch scum right here, right now.

I'd like to lynch scum. But if we miss, I wanna tie it up Day 2.
Besides... You ARE an overachiever, and have answered your own question:

No Lovers Mafia game has ever had a scum lynch on Day 1, ...

So camn, whatcha think of Kmd's current lurking situation?

I noticed he was on V/LA. Didn't you?

[Haylen]

camn, you managed to infer everyone except for yourself and kmd were scum with this:

@ Korts: it depends on the case you concocted Smile And it depends on if you and he are scum, or if you and HER are scum, or if HE and SHE are!
You and incog could react to Haylen being at L-1 very differently, I think.... funny thing is, you have reacted the SAME.

Admittedly I did forget that Spyrex is in the game, which means he should post HERE more. But you have still infered that 3/5ths of the players in this game (with you excuded) are scum in that quote. Do you deny?

I fail to see how this goes to show how I am apparently trying to lead the town towards lack of clarity. Everything I have said can be proven. I would like to contradict your statement that nothing I say serves a basis in reality, by saying that is pure crap.

You know how to play your town meta? Then why are you reacting similarly here as when you were attacked in cretins by myself and random?

Why am I scummier than Spyrex? Why am I scummy at all?

Why are you leaving the issue? Worried you're going to say something that will add to the list of scummy things you have said?

And again with the lynches for purely informatical purposes, they will generally lack credibility here due to the fact EVERYONE needs to be on a wagon for somebody to be lynched. What if one of the scum isn't on the wagon? What happens then? This is another thing you have said that makes me believe you are scum. Tomorrow will be lylo if we mislynch and we can't risk lynching somebody for purely informatical purposes. That's just silly.

If we could be in a 5-person game with the town split in two, and both scum on one side... I sense a win.

Um, yeah, a win for the scum. We are not lynching somebody just to get information. And the scum on both sides, as you are implying, then could just confuse everybody and cause disclarity. This could also be seen as a scumslip because it may be an insight into what you and your partner are planning.

1.) The "I'm metaing SpyreX" and then repeated use of me in a connection with your fight with KMD.

misrepresentation. I explained why I mentioned that I am metaing you. And I also explained that I've never tried to make out there's a connection between us. There are very few people on the site who i'll allow it to appear we have a connection.

2.) The appeal to authority to push a case on KMD based on "tunnelling".

I was not appealing to authority. To form arguments I was taught you use the P.E.E format. Point. Example. Explain. To explain things you are supposed to use other people's ideas to support your own.

3.) The "I'm new" defense for mistakes

I've never done this[/]
---3.a) The denial of the above.

Of course I'm going to deny it if I haven't done it. And I'm not a newbie anymore.

4.) Meta as a defense for your actions via KMD.

please explain

5.) Meta as a defense for your actions via Camn.

again, please explain. I do not understand what you mean

6.) The KMD "scumslip" when in this game what he said is 120% accurate.

It really hasn't been accurate. I have explained that a lot of the things he has said is wrong. Where are you getting these statistics from? Nothing can be 120% accurate, you can have something that has been enlarged by 120% though...

7.) The self-vote early enough to allow you to slide by and gain "town cred".

The self vote was due to frustration and will never happen again. Self voting is silly.

8.) The "spyrexspyrex" explosion as an attempt to build a strawman out of what I was saying to attack.

The spyrexspyrexspyrex thing was also due to frustration. Might I suggest you actually read into things and trying to decide whether I am lying or not before you accuse me of being scum. After all, that is what scumhunting is all about. If you actually looked into it, you'd find you're wrong and I'm not scum.

9.) Your massive amount of qualitative language in regards to KMD.

That was an example of how something would be written as an essay. It was hypothetical. And I am not totally sure that he is scum, therefore I cannot say that I am.
10.) Accusing me of lurking when I posted on the same page.

*blink* you posted on the same page after I accused you of lurking. And I was more infering the fact that you had responses to questions that should be answered, and you spent ages posting in other games and reading GD/MD before posting here.

Bolded is mine.

[SpyreX]

Grrr I hate quote blocks like that:

1.) You mentioned me specifically. That is the issue. Camn's wiki says "don't bother to meta me" yet there was no "I'm going to meta deal with it Camn." You fostered a link that shouldn't and doesn't exist. This was augmented in your arguments with KMD unnecessarily.

2.) If that is true that doesn't change that inherent in that plan there is an appeal to authority - especially in a subjective enviornment like this. What does Tar have to do with anything except be an outside source to look back on if you are wrong?

3.) See the end of your post 14, mid post 20, post 51.

4 & 5.) Any reference to "see I did this in X game." I'm not going to hunt them all down. Which leads us to:

6.) It is an undeniable fact that every town player has to be on a wagon to lynch scum in this setup. A function of that would be being able to convince other said town members of your case. This is not the case in normal games sans-lylo. Thus, when KMD said you have to be able to persuade town members it is a true statement* and I have no idea how it can be portrayed as a scumslip.

*This does not mean that KMD is town, but the statement is still factual.

7.) AtE

8.) AtE

9.) Hypothetical qualitative language is still qualitative language and if that is the essay form of what you were saying it is implied in your statements.

10.) ... I what? See post 153. THEN see post 162. Your little snipe didn't make sense then and this is just simply mind blowing.

[Haylen]

Um. None of that was appealling to emotion.

[SpyreX]

All that and that is what you have to say?

"I was just frustrated that was totally not a scum maneuver / attempt to setup a gigantic strawman" IS an AtE.

[camn]

But you have still infered that 3/5ths of the players in this game (with you excuded) are scum in that quote. Do you deny?

Not at all. I admit THAT. (not what you initially claimed )
I don't think it is any secret that I think there are 2 scum in 3 players.. those being you, Incog and Korts.

---------

You "forgot" that Spyrex was playing?

--------------

OH, And I am going to keep doing this until you tighten up your game:

I would like to contradict your statement that

nothing I say serves a basis in reality

, by saying that is pure crap.

Cite the bold please.
Where did I say that "

NOTHING

Haylen says has any basis in reality"?
I try and go through the trouble to express myself in a clear and specific manner...... how can I do it better?
I must be being unclear.. or maybe you are intentionally misquoting me?

[Haylen]

At that time that is all I could say. You see, Spyrex, unfortunately when you are sharing a laptop with another person and that other person wants to use the laptop, you may find yourself in the situation where you can't answer a post fully. Find out facts before you criticise, kthanx.

1) I never mentioned camn with the meta thing because camn already knows that I like to meta. I could link you to a series of posts in Cretin's in which I used it loads if you like. And I already know what camn's wiki says. I mentioned you specifically because I was aiming a point at you, your wiki suggests very strong feelings about meta so I was putting across the point that I'm going do it whether you like it or not.

What do you mean by 'it was augmented in your arguements with Kmd'? Everything (with the exception of a few posts) I say necessarilly, I don't pull up loads of crap out of nowhere.

2) It is true. Nobody can make up P.E.E, other synonyms for it are P.E.G.E.X. which means exactly the same thing. I don't plan on looking back on Tar because I know I'm right, and I was using his standard tells to support my idea. Is it not necessary to reference where you have gotton your information?

3) Cant you post links?

post 14 - Not me using being unexperienced as an excuse to make mistakes. Somebody wanted an explanation and I gave it.

post 20 - Again, it's an explanation.

post 51 - Um...I actually said I wasn't a newbie anymore and invited you to attack me for all the mistakes I make.

Now tell me, in which of these posts did I actually use it as a defence for doing something scummy? Your point is invalid.

I dont understand your 4/5/6th points.

I disagree with you, that is not an appeal to emotion. I would show you what a real one was but I learnt my lesson with that.

My little snipe? You are really beginning to get on my nerves now. I don't snipe. Not in my nature. Look at the amount of time between those posts, and explain why you were lurking around the site.

[Haylen]

camn

I did indeed forget that Spyrex was playing. I am scatterbrained, and he hadn't posted in a while.

Keep doing what until I tighten up my game?

You say stuff like that, that has little basis in reality, with no backup at all.

Yer...maybe you didn't say that...I'm half asleep, took me ages to find your actually quite and that was after sing Cntl+F . No, the misquoting was not intentional, I just thought I could remember it without quoting it. Sorry, i shall not be so lazy next time.

[Incognito]

Kmd and camn: I wasn't really using Kmd's recent inactivity as a point against him; I was just trying to figure out why camn, a known lurker-hunter, was making a conscious effort to ignore a "lurker". I'd have liked it if camn responded to my question before Kmd did to see if she

really

would have responded with "Kmd is V/LA, duh!" as her excuse, but what can you do?

-~-~-~-~

I hope camn's slipperyness isn't going unnoticed:

EBWOP

If Haylen's town, I think both scum would have to be on the wagon already at this point.

See.. THIS is what I am looking for.

We need a lynch today that gives us that kind of information, if they happen to flip town.
I don't know if Haylen is it or not.. but If we could be in a 5-person game with the town split in two, and both scum on one side... I sense a win.

The above is pretty obvious agreement with the quoted statement made by me. And then we get the following:

I want a lynch that

splits the scum into one group or another.

I, like I said, am unsure if Haylen is it.. but IF she IS.. I would bet the scum are in the OUT-group.

Suddenly camn claims she believes the scum would be in the

out

-group (meaning Korts and I) as opposed to SpyreX and Kmd who I'm guessing were her so-called "in-group" when she clearly agreed with my statement in 262.

I wish I was a day-vig.