Mini 1252 - My Not So Humble Abode - Game Over

[Scumhunter]

vote: weirdbeard

That beard is heinous. I saw it in the signup thread and was like OH DEAR GOD.

[Scumhunter]

Posting becuase I don't want to be prodded/replaced. This game is currently #2 on my MS to-do list and should be getting to it in the next day or two.

[Scumhunter]

reads incoming this afternoon.

unvote

[Scumhunter]

Town reads (from strongest to weakest): Dash, weirdbeard, Palmar
Lean town: Protector, Sirbastion, Palmar, TSG
Null: bvoigt, 2birds
Lean scum: Edgerobin, Johhog, Draken
Scum reads (from strongest to weakest): none that are very strong yet

Assorted quick thoughts:

Interactions between Edge/2birds early on looked like potential scum distancing with each other. Just seemed a bit unnatural.

Palmar dropping in to casually place a serious vote seemed very town to me early

TSGRaaize was pretty overdefensive at points, not sure it is a scum tell though. He's prob town.

Protector is probably town but could be dangerous as scum.

Johhog pinged my scumdar when he said it doesn't defeat the purpose to announce you are starting a bandwagon. Or maybe its just that I disagree with that sentiment strongly. Not really seeing why people are calling him town. I'm pretty suspicious in general of him not jsut because of that one ping.

Draken's L-1 vote on weird was bad. He attempted to explain his intent. Not sure if I buy it. Going into this post I thought he'd be my vote, but if he's town I feel he could be an easy ML target for scum...

This feels right to me:

vote Edgerobin

It takes time to do that last post you did with all the quotes. What was actually said in it? Not much of value. You say you have a gut scumread on Draken, but want to focus on 2birds vs palmar instead? Can you explaikn your gut scumread on Draken? If Draken is town (pretty big if) your post reads to me as trying to casually mention that you would support his lynch if that wagon grows and it certainly could do to Draken's L-1 vote. Oh and another thing is the mention of hydra disagreements felt off to me. Having played as a hydra before, when I disagree with my other head I'm making sure that my opinion is known both in our QT and in thread. I don't get the feeling that your hydra disagreement is really a significant impetus in your reads at this stage, although maybe its because I'm just an intense person to hydra with sometimes. Anyways, yea hope this explains what I'm thinking right now.

Any questions on my reads, please ask. Sorry to have been inactive. Might have bit off more games than I can chew, busy IRL, etc. I should be on later tonight to dedicate some more time to this game.

[Scumhunter]

Sir Bastion, I'm a notorious d1 lurker. I strive to post something meaningful by page 10. GREAT SUCCESS. But yea, I should be much more active from this point out. If I'm not it will be because of being busy IRL, at which point I'd ask for a replacement.

[Scumhunter]

Im a terribad lurker!

[Scumhunter]

I'm really useless this game. Someone engage me. I trust teh pony. Tell me what to do.

[Scumhunter]

in b4 johman's vote on weirdbear was distancing

[Scumhunter]

I have a compelling argument right here: Let's lynch the other lurker not me! We both can't be town!
^^

Thomith, I apologize for not being more active. I replaced out of a game that was about to start to give myself a more manageable game count (3) right now. If I continue to suck balls, and veg out for 4 days at a time go ahead and replace me, although yea for your sake I'll try to avoid it. I generally struggle to get involved day 1. Bleh.

[Scumhunter]

Dash, I do want SGR to answer your questions and your suspicion on him is definitely noted. As for if I'm willing to vote him right now. Hmm. Draken's L-1 vote was pretty scummzy so early in the game although I can think of some town motivated factors that could make someone do that.

[Scumhunter]

unvote, vote TSGRaaize

Trust in the pony.

TSGR in your #32, you said the feel Draken gives you is town, but then you list him as 3rd scummiest and you've had your vote on him since before that post and still to this point. What's up with that? :3

[Scumhunter]

2birds, I can start to troll if you want <3. I generally take the game seriously (even when trolling I try to win).

Good vig targets:

Palmar [ ]
Johman [x]

[Scumhunter]

Pony for president. All sheep da pony?

[Scumhunter]

I said I supported a Johman vig over a Palmar vig mostly because I think Palmar is town, but Johman is still a suspect of mine.

Beck is pinging my scumdar a bit lately. Not really sure I can explain why exactly right now. Maybe its just that I disagree and I don't think its rolefishing to ask for a claim. If anything scum probably wouldn't ask for a claim for fear of it looking scummy, particularly at L-2/L-3. The motivation for asking for a claim here looks to me strongly like wanting Draken to claim to know if we need to move this wagon elsewhere while we still have time.

As for what possible town motivation Draken could have for voting someone to L-1 so quickly. Well, a lot of times I see town prs vote fast d1 to try and rush it to night so that they don't out themselves and get an investigation in. That's what I noticed earlier with Draken's L-1 vote as a possiblity but didn't think it was really wise to explain it at that time.

[Scumhunter]

Eh. I support a full claim from Draken and we can go from there.

[Scumhunter]

Draken, you need to fully claim your role. No one hammer yet please.

[Scumhunter]

Hell, can we not lynch draken, its giving me a bad feeling -___-

[Scumhunter]

Lets Lynch TSGR. TSGR, your last post is overexplaining your stance and leaving your options open to potentially ML Draken in the future imo. No me gusta

@Pony, what happened to the lynch TSGR plan? I'm not liking some of the ponies nor the case on the 2birds wagon, particularly edge + beck (evil ponies imo)

Weirdbeard, thats one hell of a flip in your opinion of Draken. You were to the point of saying you wouldn't believe him no matter his claim to a strong town gut read O.o Was his generic VT claim that convincing?

Somewaht important side note: 3rd parties like serial killers just love to talk about the possibility of a vig on day 1.

[Scumhunter]

Gut reactions aren't dumb. Draken is probably town. I still prefer TSGR lynch > 2birds.

[Scumhunter]

TSGR wagon is where the cool ponies are.

[Scumhunter]

weridbeard, you are all over the place. Not saying it makes you scum necessarily. Just sayin.

[Scumhunter]

Alright RBD, hop on the TSGR wagon then? Or are you just distancing from him with no intent to actually follow through with a lynch?

[Scumhunter]

Godamnit, guys, I'm still rereading, its hard to keep up, but I'm not gonna rush it so I avoid the bw on me.

Unvote, as has been said, a lynch on me won't mean shit, and most of you guys admitted there's nothing legitimately scummy on me,

only the fact I have done nothing

, which will eventually be fixed when I finally finish rereading.

Urgh

Bolded is for emphasis. We have 3 days to deadline. Where have you been lately? Why aren't you contributing at the stage of the day where we are trying to achieve a lynch?

Your excuse posts also hint at a strong desire to not be lynched and an attempt to dismiss the case
"this lynch won't mean shit"
"you guys admitted there's nothing legitimately scummy on me"

I do think your lurkerness could definitely be consistent with lurker scum as your posts have a bit of an indignation of "this is a bad lynch" where as a townie would be like "welp, it makes sense that people are voting me since I've been doing jack-squat lately".

I like this wagon.

[Scumhunter]

weird, its not about lurking in general being a scumtell because its not necessarily. What I do want to know is why TSGR is doing nothing at this particular stage of the game.

Also, its terrible logic to say "I'm not voting so and so for doing "x" (x being something that you consider bad + scummzy) because other people are also doing it. The fact that other players are lurking/not doing enough doesn't detract from the actions TSGR is doing and I expect better of him tbh.

[Scumhunter]

We have 2 days til deadline and are nowhere near a lynch. Let's go people.

[Scumhunter]

I agree with teh pony's #738.

[Scumhunter]

How are you obvious town tsgr?

[Scumhunter]

The insistence on claiming VT is something that you wouldn't do, in the very post that you claim VT, is not really a good argument to me tsgr =/. It shows that a VT claim should mean the person claiming is more likely to be town from your experiences. And that by claiming that to be the case you are pleading people to unvote you. And well, scum's job is to get votes off of them and onto town. I'm just saying what you decided to claim here really isn't conclusive evidence that you aren't lying particularly if you are a competent player.

Also, what makes a VT claim a town tell quite often is the person's attitude who claims it. VT's often have a fk it I don't care attitude just lynch me, which, (when sincere) that attitude has plenty of lazy town motivation and no scum motivation behind it. Your attitude doesn't match the "lol i dont give a @#$! I'm a vt lol lynch me" attitude that VT's give off when they are about to be lynched. I can't tell if its because you actually care about the game like you should (a rarity on here unfortunately) or because you have a more vested interested in not being lynched (aka being scum).

[Scumhunter]

@TSGR,

Also, what I know is that a fairly consistent scumtell for me is that I claim to be "obvious" town early in games when there is no basis for people to trust me. I have used that line a number of times as scum early on in forum games off-site and I've gotten nailed pretty hard for it each time. If you can give me a convincing argument to why you are "obv town" (or just town in general) and why I should view you as such I'd be willing to switch.

We need to get someone with teh hammer ready. We can't NL. Deadline is in less than a day here.

Who is going to be around who can hammer this lynch before the deadline? NL is pretty much the worstoutcome for us here.

[Scumhunter]

Ehhhhh, Wellp. Fuck.

@2birds, I'd say policy lynching anything or gathering suspects today just based on a lynch wagon yesterday is bad news bears. I'd keeper more of an open mind as to who could be scum really. Why are Beck/shinki/bvoigt "above the line for you"

@Beck, I don't really buy into the one of the counterwagons had to be on scum theory. There are times when multiple wagons are town and times when multiple wagons are scum. I wouldn't read too much into stuff like that.

@SirB, why do you say 2birds "quick hammered". It was 33 pages in and what less than a day to deadline?? I don't see that as a quickhammer whatsoever, plus what difference does it make if you are the one hammering or he is? I find that whole accusation pretty odd to be honest and defenitely could be scumbuddies distancing. Not saying it is, just it seemed odd to me.

Sorry TSGR

[Scumhunter]

eh what, whats all the talk with claims, no one has claimed anything ya? I do think that if masons exist it would be wise for them to claim today for 2 clears. Yes, it lines up clears for the scum to kill, but there is probably some sort of protective role and it also would establish a town alliance for us to rally around to try and make the best use of each of our lynches. Sometimes claiming isn't a bad thing. Mass claim is actually one of the most underutilized town weapons on here. Not suggesting mass claim right now, but tomorrow it definitely should be at least a consideration.

Just realized I voted 2 townies day 1, go me! =/

This game does need a bit of a kickstart tbh. I don't know how exactly to do it, but I'm having a hard time getting engaged here/knowing where to go exactly.

Hai bvoigt. We haven't interacted at all this game. Why is that? Do you care if I'm scum or not. I just realized you were called obv town by someone and I don't think I've really considered your alignment all that hard this game. Why is that? Are you slipping under the radar somehow or am I failing at reading. Probably a bit of both. tldr, what do you think of me? HAI.

[Scumhunter]

This game. I don't even...I want to contribute, but I don't really have much to say except, I have no f'n clue. I need to draw scum more often or something, my town game has been meh lately -___-

Pony, I have no clue what those things mean. What do you think they mean? If you don't know what they mean why are you bringing them up? Are they worth discussing?

Delta, I r interested in your opinion replacing in here.

[Scumhunter]

Apparently I forgot the voting part of sheeping.

unvote
Vote Scumhunter

To snipe a few points before SB gets there -

Quite a few times looking back, Scumhunter kept bumping me back to the TSGR wagon, without actually doing much pushing of it himself, just getting me to do the work.

Also im waiting for that "D2 upkick in content" still.

Is this a "I think this pony is scum vote" or a "wtf why is this pony contributing more vote"?

[Scumhunter]

I'm not intentionally laying low. I just don't know who is scum and I'm having a hard time jumping in here. I know that sounds like the type of excuse a scumlord would make, but welp, thats the way it is =/

[Scumhunter]

Palmar, self-voting is retarded.

[Scumhunter]

Scumhunter. Can we get a good post from you listing who your top 2 scum reads are and why?

I feel like I can't read you at all.

Yes and soon. I've been due for a big reread/trying to figure this game out and have been putting it off.

[Scumhunter]

Palmar, is that a serious claim? If you are town, I don't want to lynch you, so if you are faking, please say so, I still won't want to lynch you. I don't believe you are a cop with a guilty on Johman one iota though.

[Scumhunter]

Johman, what are your thoughts on Palmar?

[Scumhunter]

Ya, I think he's town. I also believe you and 2b1s are both town at first glance. Massive post coming...tonight? deadline is coming so i need to get my ass in gear here. I'm suspicious of bvoigt but i need to really reread to see if i still feel that way later.

[Scumhunter]

Palmar is definitely town

. Faking a guilty as scum when he himself is not in danger of being lynched has no scum motivation. He

really, really

wants Johman lynched. Scum really want to lynch town, but not any one town so specifically and certainly not with the desperation of a fake claim like that.

Draken's play fits for a town power role would play. Maybe I'm overestimating my town read on him (initially had him as strongest town read after Palmar) because of that fact, when he could easily be just soft-claiming a pr as scum (which would make plenty of sense as well). I like how he has gut town reads in 902, but I disagree with his reads there. One to keep an eye on.

2birds1stone is also for sure town. The way I see it at least one of 2b1s and Johman has to be town. And I really can't envision a Johman-town/2b1s-scum scenario. Scum-2b1s would have no reason to out himself as town-Johman's neighbor. It's a dream scenario for a scum neighbor for your town neighbor partner to be lynched without claiming as you can then claim your role as needed later and be considered semi-clear.

Beck is probs town. I agree with his reads and his questions towards people (myself included). His confusion about why Johman wouldn't claim his actual is very legit.

Reads:
Town (Strongest ---> Weakest): Palmar, 2birds1stone, Beck, Draken
Lean Town: SirB, Pony
Null/Undecided: Delta, weirdbeard
Scum Reads: (Strongest ---> Weakest): Johman, bvoigt

I will continue posting reads on everyone throughout the day here. I'm at work on Saturday , but I should have my full reads up in the coming hours here + a full response to your points on me SirB.

vote: Johman

[Scumhunter]

How about you just tell me how I'm wrong?

[Scumhunter]

SirB, can I just say your point by point cases on everyone yesterday were really hard to read and not that helpful to me =/. I do like the effort you are putting into your cases and it definitely reads as sincere to me.

-I do think its more important to appear town to fellow townies than to find scum. I prefer to find scum through PoE through gaining strong town reads, however, if I feel strongly about one lynch option over another I certainly will push for it.
-I do get fosed for "obv town slips" In Newbie 1103: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17472, I take a lot of heat for my first post in the game for saying "here's to hoping for a town win". I was town that game and I do try and emphasize my town mindset through all my play so that others can more easily view me as town. I can see how that could be interpreted as a scum-motivation to convince others you are town, but its the way I play and it works out fine most of the time I'd say.
-viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17934&user_select=15473 this game you linked as my scum game, I was town.
-http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=17276 This actually is my only scum game on here for reference.

Any other questions feel free to ask me.

[Scumhunter]

I fail at links:
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=17934
^Town game where you think I'm scum.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=17276
^Actual scum game

[Scumhunter]

Johman, I just can't comprehend why you, as town, wouldn't claim your actual role there? Especially, since another player can confirm your claim??

Fixed so it is easier to see who was posting.
Thomith.

[Scumhunter]

That Jaguar picture always makes me hungry. Hungry for ponies. Hungry for lynching scum ponies that is.

[Scumhunter]

After reviewing her play, I suppose teh pony is probably town. Ponys #14 would be slightly incriminating if Johman were to flip scum: "Johman is almost for sure town. The case against him is horrible. Honestly guys it makes no freaking sense, if Johman is scum this is like the definiton of somepony getting lucky with a null tell. "
2nd part of that could be a bailout clause if Johman were to flip scum, so that she doesn't look bad. Overall, I don't suspect teh pony that much. However, I have been having a hard time finding scum this game, which often means that the most-active/pro-town looking players end up being scum from my experience. RBD would be an excellent check by an investigative role if we are lucky enough to have a cop in the game.

Shinki was suspicious to me right before she replaced out but I backed off pursuing that more once delta replaced in. For a player replacing in, Delta doesn't have that many opinions/suspicions. Usually when I replace into a game, I come in fresh with a bunch of ideas that no one has mentioned before. Not seeing it from this slot and no me gusta. Lean-scum on this slot.

Weirdbeard I'm leaning town on. He has posted a lot and nothing jumps out at me as omg blatantly scummy. I found myself disagreeing with some of his logic/reads early on and I think that was making me more suspicious of him than is warranted. Not at all confident in this read, mostly because I think weirdbeard is probably a good enough player to appear pretty protown as scum and I've never played with him before.

[Scumhunter]

I have always found that I have a harder time explaining my scum reads than my town reads. As for bvoigt, its mostly a gut thing as his play has the appearance of being protown. He has been active and it looks like he is trying to find scum. I don’t know it could be that I’m not familiar with his play style but the tone of a lot of his posts seem almost unnecessarily accusatory to appear helpful. For example, in #6 “You were intentionally fencesitting there?” Blehhhhhhhhh. I don’t know I can see bvoigt being town also here. It also made me suspicious that he hadn’t mentioned my slot at all. Eh, I know I was I pretty inactive but no comments at all about my slot -___-. It made me feel like he didn’t care to find out my alignment (i.e. that he already knows I’m town). Probably looking into this too much.

Johman’s aggressiveness early to being fosed for something as small as saying “Bandwagon Go!” read to me like a potential scumlord raging at having spotlight on them for an asinine reason. Later on in Johmans #48 he mentions that its extremely easy to fake the reactions of a frustrated townsperson, which I was just thinking that maybe his pissed offness at being fosed for bad reasons was just a smokescreen of his true intent. Oh and scum love to discuss the night kill and what it means because well, it’s a natural topic for them to discuss at the beginning of day phases without feeling out of place. The biggest thing though, and the thing I can’t get over, is why Johman would claim VT here, with a confirmable role. Makes like 0 sense man. Wut is this? Why???

Oh and I found waht I was wrong about. Draken claimed VT. Forgot that. Ehhh, Draken could be scumlord?
Anyways, after reading bvoigt again, I feel a little less suspicious of him. My gut is twinging though. Mehhh.

Preferred lynches right now: [Delta, Johman].
Lynches I'd consider [bvoigt, Draken (really need to reread him again me thinks)]

Go figure the day I'm active, no one else is online -___-

[Scumhunter]

pony, what do you make of Johman's vt claim? also what do you think of delta?

[Scumhunter]

Wutt? Why wouldn't you claim your role. I guess it goes for either alignment. But you have a confirmable role against someone who has a vendetta against you and you are at L-1. Yea I guess its just a poor choice more than anything. I guess scum would have ample motivation to get votes off them, but still more info here would be good.

Why is a delta lynch not preferred? What has delta done to change your mind?

[Scumhunter]

unvote, vote Deltawave

[Scumhunter]

I'm not sure we have time to coordinate a mass-claim today, and I definitely don't see how you have "basically claimed" already pony. I think it might be wise to save the mass claim for tomorrow tbh.

[Scumhunter]

Shinki was suspicious to me right before she replaced out but I backed off pursuing that more once delta replaced in. For a player replacing in, Delta doesn't have that many opinions/suspicions. Usually when I replace into a game, I come in fresh with a bunch of ideas that no one has mentioned before. Not seeing it from this slot and no me gusta. Lean-scum on this slot.

[Scumhunter]

I'm not saying you are 100% scum. Why haven't you contributed a lot of content/who do you think is scum?

[Scumhunter]

Why?

[Scumhunter]

wut u mean delta? how could a bg know that johman is scum>?

[Scumhunter]

RIP Pony

[Scumhunter]

Oh shit. This does mean 2b1s is scum here right? Before we make any more hasty decisions based on mechanics, I do want to see what 2b1s has to say though.

2b1s, how do you explain johman flipping goon here?

[Scumhunter]

vote 2birds1stone

lol we lynch 2scum1gambit.

Hey Sir B, look at my iso #11 and tell me you still suspect me

[Scumhunter]

unvote

for the sake of cautiousness and because we have plenty of time to double check ourselves here.

[Scumhunter]

i honestly forgot about the whole neighbor fiasco/didn't really consider what the flip meant til I read your post. My sole thought process about this game was slight bitterness over the bodyguard lynch and anger at myself for going along with it without really poring through the ruleset/asking the mod. I think this game would be more fun if ANY claim were allowed.

[Scumhunter]

Neither can I, lets just wait to see what he has to say though.

[Scumhunter]

Let's not discuss too much ideas of how 2bird could be town until he responds himself. Otherwise we could be doing the work for scum in thinking up far-fetched explanations.

[Scumhunter]

If you had claimed neighborizer instead of neighbors, I may have considered believing you 2b1s. As such, I personally read the wiki this time and combined with the mod's comments about neighbors flipping as neighbors, I just can't see how you can be town here. =/

vote: 2birds1stone

Hammer time.

[Scumhunter]

Eh. Potentially. There is no protective role left most likely. I'd think we probably have some sort of investigative role. They should use their discretion as to whether to claim or not tomorrow. Obviously claim if any guilty. Or if you can clear 2 townies it would make sense also imo.

[Scumhunter]

Mass claim would most likely result in all VT claims and one PR claim.

[Scumhunter]

Watcher isn't really investigative. I'd expect us to have a tracker/cop/gunsmith/something out there.

[Scumhunter]

Welp. I'm considering if we should No Lynch today. There is likely 1 scum left and I doubt we have a doctor....so if we narrow it down by one we would have better odds while still keeping our mislynch. I can't imagine there being 4 scum in this game right? Still looking at bvoigt as my top suspect right now.

[Scumhunter]

yes we have a ML today but we also have a ML tomorrow, with the benefit of a smaller suspect pool due to someone dying.

If we do have a town RB/JK. I believe they should claim today with who they roleblocked/jailkept last night because that person would be clear and then we should lynch today.

I will compile a case on bvoigt when I can. Beck, I think you are town. Why are you suspicious of me?

[Scumhunter]

I don't think we should continue the claim. If there is a town roleblocker or jailkeeper, they should claim though. Any town power role that can clear at least one other player should claim today. Otherwise, I still think nolynch is best.

bvoigt, I don't buy the "scum has to be off the wagon" theory. 7 people is a lot to achieve a lynch. I don't think it would be unheard of for 3 scum to be on the wagon there. I do want to take a closer look at weirdbeard though.

Pre-reread my suspect list looks something like this:
1.bvoigt
2.weirdbeard
3.draken
4.beck
5. palmar

I think we should stop mass claiming and just NL. If a town power role has something useful (an innocent is useful) than they can come forward and we lynch today.

[Scumhunter]

Alright then, don't agree with this but whatever.

I'm a VT. Any reason you wanted me to claim next specifically weird?

[Scumhunter]

Alright, well, I'm leaning toward believing weird's claim. I probably would have outted my guilty on Johman immediately, but meh. I also wouldn't consider bvoigt clear because with 2 goon flips scum have to have SOME power role. A godfather is certainly a possibility. weird, does your JOAT-power set contain a jailkeep/roleblock power? If so, you should definitely be using that tonight and announcing who you are using it before the end of phase.

[Scumhunter]

oh tracker investigation. nvm bvoigt is practically clear.

[Scumhunter]

I just find it odd they have 2 townie roles that can kill...

setup wifom. omg we ahve 1-shot vig claim and JOAT claim with vig in power set, no way can it be legit.

I've seen a setup with a 1-shot tracker and a full tracker before. Made the mistake of viewing them as ccs and it led to 2 town lynches.
i really don't see how weird can be lying here based on pure balancing of setup. lol there go my 2 top suspects, both confirmed town pretty much XD

[Scumhunter]

@Palmar. don't you think it was odd that 2b1s and Johman were both scum? I couldn't anticipate that scum would try a suicidal claim like that. Oh and I was very much in support of Johman-scum since early on from what I recall.

In retrospect, it kind of makes sense that bvoigt is town because even though I have been hammering on him as my top suspect he has been keeping his cool and not worrying about it too much.

I'm also of the opinion that Beck is town, but next item in the docket for this game is to review [Beck, Draken, Palmar] in depth with interactions to wagons/scumlords. If I had to take a guess right now I'd say Draken is scum, but thats before I review all the evidence.

@weird, do you have a JK/RB in your power set? What is your power set exactly? Do you still have actions that you can use tonight?

[Scumhunter]

Hi monk <3 u

[Scumhunter]

Well, seeing as you are pretty much confirmed town what I'm saying is I can see how your reactions were towniesh (aka coming from a townie). I feel like scum tend to get mad about being fosed more often while town focus on explaining themselves and you did the latter/remained calm. Hindsight is 20/20 etc.

I wouldn't completely rule Palmar out. This game is next on the docket for me in terms of a massive reread although idk if that's happening tonight. It may. I remember the last time I read through I missed Draken's VT claim and I had been thinking he was town because I had thought he was soft claiming PR d1 to get votes off him. I'm going to focus on the Draken wagon/other scum's reaction to it.

And sure, make a case on me. I'll be here to answer for what I've done.

[Scumhunter]

Oh, and I absolutely agree that we should lynch today now fwiw.

[Scumhunter]

Just because it wouldn't be optimal to bus like that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Plus, I found Palmar's pushes on Johman to be pretty over the top to the point that I couldn't fully comprehend why he was pushing on him so hard (and that's coming from someone who thought Johman was scum). Playing the devil's advocate here mostly but just saying.

[Scumhunter]

It would work well, but would Palmar think to use that strategy? Maybe. Probably not though. The one thing about his cop claim was that it was very obviously not believable. Anyone with half a brain cell could work out that he was not a cop when he claimed it there.

@weirdbeard, do you have any other powers you can still use, speficially a jailkeeping/roleblocking ability?

Commencing reread and probably will post in an hour or so.

[Scumhunter]

Completed my readthrough. I'm taking weird's claim to be legit and thus him and bvoigt as clears. Town is missing significant power if weird is lying and a JOAT fits that bill perfectly. That leaves 3 suspects for me.

Palmar:
I don't think I really realized how hard he was pushing on Johman. His iso was actually pretty freaking lolzy. The one thing I will say is that while he was just push, push, pushing, I wouldn't underestimate this fellow. He is clearly a competent player. I've seen people bus that hard before. The single most compelling argument I have for Palmar town is actually 2birds quote right before he was hammered. To a degree, 2birds is right, Palmar's initial vote on Johman was based on little reasoning.

Palmar, you were lucky. Having a fight with someone and then deciding they're scum does not qualify as scumhunting.

If this were an epic bus by Palmar, would 2birds be crafty enough to say something like this that points out Palmar's initial weak vote on Johman? When their entire hope is Palmar surviving due to epic town cred? I don't know. I think not. I think its way more likely that 2birds is just somewhat bitter about Palmar essentially spamming "lynch Johman" (granted he later provided some good points) and it resulting in both scum being lynched. I think Palmar is town, but I wouldn't underestimate him. He seems like a smart fellow and I believe he's capable of being scum here although the evidence makes me think he's town.

Beck:
Also think he's town (yes that's bad news for you Draken). I really liked how early in the game he was trying to diffuse shit cases over winks and it seemed like he has been trying to keep town on task throughout the game. Examples include pressuring lurkers (myself included) into participating more and asking pointed questions about people's intents. His case on 2b1s early really didn't read to me like distancing/bussing. He was repeatedly trying to draw attention to 2b1s for legitimate reasons. I think he's town too. If we lynch Draken today like I want to and he were to flip town, I'd probably shit a brick trying to figure out between Palmar and Beck. While shitting that brick, I'd probably be lynched. Well, that leaves....

Johman read? Basically, nullish. If I had to say, leaning town. Not really based on anything solid unfortunately. See end of post.

I'mma gonna take a step back and look again.

Weird, your vote onto Palmar was odd, your vote on 2bird was much less odd, your vote on Johman is not so much odd but I don't agree with the reasons.
If using the term WIFOM incorrectly were a scum tell, then we had 80% scum in my last game...

But anyway I can't justify my vote on you right now. UNVOTE:

I'm going to make me a list of players and see if I can sort out some reads. Hopefully sometime in the next 24 hours.

Draken gives Johman a nullish read. Johman's #23, #28, and #29 read as distancing without the intent of actually lynching draken and he later reciprocates Draken's null read with a null-scum read on Draken.

Sorry guys, was out all yesterday, funnily enough gaming like 2bird said he was.

Day 1 is hard, cause 'all' you have to go on is what people have said. This is in contrast to later days when someone has actually died, and you can look at the interactions of players with the recently deceased.
I get torn between wanting day 1 to end quickly and wanting to actually have it long enough to produce the interactions that can be looked at day 2 and onwards.

Can someone well me what happened from post 361 to 364 just up this page a bit? I'm rather confused on that...

@2bird,

Yes, my fence-sitting on policy lynches was intentional, I thought I would build up a wagon, and I thought that scum would feel obliged to take advantage of such an easy wagon. Unfortunately, only two people called me out on it.

Are you suggesting you fence-sat to attract a wagon on yourself? To catch scum?
Not sure I follow how this could be a good idea.

I might be out on a limb here, but the way Draken is talking here, it shows an awareness of looking at interactions from the day 1 lynch to determine suspects for day 2. It wasn't the first time he mentioned this either that the d1 flip would help with d2. Now that certainly is true after all so there is nothing inherently wrong with saying that. What I wonder though is that scum are in the mindset of getting town lynched day 1 and then incriminating other town based on that flip to try and lynch them day 2, etc. I wonder if that was Draken's thought process here and it was spilling over into the thread.

I wouldn't say it's exactly 'fine' to just attack the ones attacking yourself.

I'd like to pop in and say I think Johman is actually town based off his response to RBD asking if he was mason with 2bird.
Do tell me if I'm completely off my rocker for this conclusion.

In the mean time here's a list of town and towny (less confident) reads:
Town:
RBD
Johman

Towny:
Basty

Gut Town (absolutely nothing but gut):
bvoigt
scumhunter

This is pretty much another way of saying I think scum is probably within 2bird, Beck, Weird, Shinki, and Palmar, who are all null or worse reads.

I find this post odd because it doesn't clarify between "null or worse reads". There is a huge freaking difference between a null read and a "worse", aka scum read and I would have expected a townie to clarify which reads are worse and why at least to some extent.

Vote: Draken

My town reads on Beck and Palmar are pretty strong. Gun to my head who is scum if Draken were somehow confirmed town, I'd probably say Palmar, but that's mostly because I think he could be trickier than he appears if he wanted to be and I'm reasonably confident in my vote right now. If you are town Draken, feel free to point out how I'm wrong/try and change my mind.

[Scumhunter]

I don't necessarily agree with your assessment of Draken and I definitely don't think what he says is irrelevant at this stage.

[Scumhunter]

Hai Draken. I saw you say the 2b1s comment that I quoted about Palmar doesn't mean that much with regards to it being evidence for Palmar-town. That may be a valid point, but do you care to say anything about my suspicions on you?

[Scumhunter]

Beck, if Weirdbeard has a JK/roleblocking power, he should announce so he can clear another player tonight by announcing before the end of day phase who he is using it on to clear them from suspicion tongiht. If scum choose to not kill we gain an additional mislynch...!

I can respond to the rest when I get a chance here.

[Scumhunter]

fuck i just typed up a full reply and it got deleted .ill have to do it again tonight because im at work adn cant spend the time right nwo. i will say that beck's vote on me has me even more confident that draken is the correct lynch, because scum beck would have no reason not to jump aboard the draken wagon right now.

[Scumhunter]

-Sheeping RBD? Guilty as charged. Buddying isn't just a scum strategy, ya know. Townies need to establish trust with each other and if I have a strong town reads I certainly will try and buddy them. RBD buddied me by saying that if I followed her vote she wouldn't let me get lynched. A mini-town alliance persay.
-I saw Palmar as protown due to his succinctness day 1. Scum, particularly on day 1, are often overly fencesitty/apologetic even when presenting aggressive cases. Palmar wasn't messing around and his posts read as very sincere.
-Sure, getting a scum partner vigged would garner quite a bit of town cred. The downside, however, is taht one of your partners has been vigged. The way I see it, I'd have to be able to directly garner at least 2 later MLs to make that trade off be worth it. Of course, as scum I wouldn't know if there would either be a vig in the game or if they would take my advice, but nevertheless I think you are overthinking this one.
-Yes, I thought Draken's play fit a town PR. I wanted him to claim precisely because if he claimed VT I was going to be fine with hsi lynch. I either didn't see him claim d1/wasn't aware enough of the game to really process what that should mean to me. This is evidenced by a massive catchup post I did taht didn't acknowledge Draken's VT claim =/ Once the wagon on him dissipated, I still was thinking he could be a town power role, so I decided not to perss him further and wait til the next day.
-I wanted TSGR lynched. RBD was uniformly town. In order to get my top suspect lynched I thought the best way to go about that would be to get the top townie on the wagon with me. I achieved my goal. TSGR unfortunately flipped town. I am familiar was TSGR from another site and the reason I thought he was scum was because he is a competent player and I wasn't buying his excuses for inactivity and his indignation at being voted. I have the tendency as scum to call myself "obv town" when its not justified and his attitude reminded me of that.

-I need to reinforce this. If weirdbeard has a JK/RB role he absolutely need to both claim it and who he would use it on tonight. I know weird has said he is out, but given his paly this game I don't completely trust he will use his role optimally, no offense intended whatsoever. It's just that if you were to haev a RB/JK power it would essentialyl give us either another investigation/another check which is very useful for obvious reasons,

[Scumhunter]

Oh and Palmar, I don't think I've made many "good" calls this game. Not one of my best town performances for sure but oh well, it happens sometimes...and if scum hadn't literally given us 2/3 their team for nothing I have the feeling I'd still be lost/failing.

[Scumhunter]

Draken (2): Palmar, Scumhunter
Scumhunter (1): Beck
Palmar (1): Draken

Not voting (2): weirdbeard, bvoigt

^if i recall correctly

[Scumhunter]

Actually bvoigt is voting me also.

[Scumhunter]

To make sure that if he does have that ability he claims it so that we can use it. JOAT generally have some sort of protective role I would think, but I'm no expert on the matter. The upside of gaining an additional mislynch/clear is well worth the hassle even if its annoying. I'm just making sure we utilize everything at our disposal and if you want to say its scum-motivated rolefishing go right ahead but at least explain what benefit I would get as scum from this fishing, because that seems like a lazy accusation to me.

I'd certainly consider switching my vote if you can explain how Beck or Palmar are more likely to be scum than you.

Yup, this is me. I apologize =/

[Scumhunter]

Dem VTs run this town.

[Scumhunter]

Draken, I'm not particularly interested in what Edgerobin thought at this point as he died night 1 and it is now day 4. What do

you

think?

@bvoigt, I'm fine with a hammer whenever as I'm pretty confident we are right.

[Scumhunter]

Draken, that's really really not why I'm voting you. I think Beck and Palmar are town. That leaves you. You are appealing to emotion right now and that's not going to work to get votes off. Present a case. I'd be more than happy to respond to 100000 reasons for why you think I'm scum if you want. Saying "SH or Palmar" is scum without expanding upon that isn't going to help. If you want to write up all the reasons you think I'm scum based on my behavior go right ahead. I'd just ask that you don't reference any one else's opinions other than your own about me.

[Scumhunter]

hi clears, do you have any input?

[Scumhunter]

-___-. If you are town Draken, you shouldn't have given up...

[Scumhunter]

Looks like someone is out to make me look suspicious here.

[Scumhunter]

despite weirdbeard not dying, I can't see him being scum here just based on the setup...Beck or Palmar, one of you have fooled me. =/

[Scumhunter]

Beck, are you a scumlord? =/

The reason I said "I think you are town" at that point was to emphasize that my response to you wasn't an attack on you at all hoping that you would listen to what I said more with that understanding. Sure, it's buddying, but its buddying with the intention of clarifying my stance on things so that people I think are town (at that point anyways) will listen more to what I have to say..

As for Palmar, I don't really understand your rage right now, and it could be faked (not saying it is, saying it could be). I've been known to rage very hard from time to time, but I don't see Draken's play as so "lol idiotic" enough to be rage inducting. I don't see why you would be raging and giving up. You have been harping on how people play bad etc. and your attitude on mylo/lylo has been a "fuck it" mindset which really doesn't jive well with someone who is so concerned with good town play. I can see you just tunneling in this fuck the world mindset because its been working well for you this game if you are scum. Buckle down, if you are town, we can win this.

I very much think we should NL today. It has to be like at least 95% that weird is telling the truth here, but we lose nothing by NLing really. Weird can still participate in what should be a lengthy discussion today and go from there. It's better to be 100% sure someone is town than 95% someone is town.

As for who is scum, I don't know...I will say it pings me the wrong way Beck, when you say "but what has scumhunter done anything good?" What do you mean by "good"? I've participated in the game, said who I thought was scum or that I wasn't sure and have overall been completely honest about my intent at every point in the game. Past that what can a townie do? To me, "Good", implies looking good, aka people not thinking you are scum which is an attribute of what scum think of when they are talking about towniness as opposed to what townies think about in terms of what = towniness, which is people's motivations for their actions...

Palmar, why do you consider Beck clear? That is pretty retarded.

Weirdbeard, Palmar's vote on you is a ploy of some sort. I don't know if he's town or he's scum, but he's competent enough to know that you are very unlikely scum here. I can see two possible motivations for his vote on you...If he's town, he hopes to catch Beck or I out to see if one of us would go after you and fos you when you are pretty obv town here given just the setup mechanics. As scum, it would be a ploy to look like misguided town and/or angry town which would fit well with his "angry" attitude since the start of the game.

tldr, scum is Palmar or Beck. =/ =/ =/.

[Scumhunter]

Palmar, why is Beck clear?

[Scumhunter]

Palmar, what have I done that has been "retarded"? How weird played his role is irrelevant to the task at hand...which is finding the last scum. No point in talking more about it right now.

And Beck doing "the least retarded things" is why he's CLEAR to you??? If I'm saying someone is "clear" on a mylo/lylo situation there sure as hell be better evidence than that Palmar.

[Scumhunter]

~50% chance Palmar is scum. Maybe slightly more. I'm heavily conflicted because I thought both Palmar and Beck were very likely (90%) town yesterday. The main thing that has me leaning ever so slightly on Palmar scum is that his play is erratic and hard to understand his motivations at times.

[Scumhunter]

Palmar, how about instead of insulting people, you answer my question...Why do you consider Beck clear?

[Scumhunter]

Well then Palmar, aren't you a beacon of helpfulness. Since you can't come up with a reason why you consider one of the two plausible suspects (Me and Beck) from your pov to be "clear", I'm just going to assume you are scum talking out of your ass until you prove otherwise.

[Scumhunter]

weird, but Palmar's cop claim was not believed by anyone even for an instant. I don't think anyone believed Palmar was cop ever. I don't see why logically a scum would claim cop with a guilty on a partner, but Palmar's play has been far from logical for much of the game. I get why you'd think he's town but at the same time at some point we need to expect him to use some logic.

What really is confusing me here is that Palmar has spend the majority of the game insulting the play of others and calling it bad. Combine that with a refusal to answer simple questions like "why do you consider one of your suspects" clear and there is a ridiculously large disconnect between his stated desire for us to "play better" and his own play which has been downright putrid at times if he is town

[Scumhunter]

Alright, well one of Beck/Palmar is officially scum now. If I do end up getting lynched I'll just say Beck better be scum because if we let Palmar win as scum here after the way he's played I'm going to vomit.

Beck I find your reasoning for voting me to pretty weak here =/ Gah. I'm going to reread the game in its entirety this evening and post my thoughts.

[Scumhunter]

Weird, I'm on my phone. Can you tell me what your abilities were and who you used them on?

Not sure I can find it on my phone right now.

Why did you want to know this. I don't see how that's relevant at all if you think I'm scum...

-"Blatant Buddying": I've explained how this makes plenty of sense as town. Town buddy town all the time. It's called gathering trust and forming a town alliance. I've also explained how my "buddying" to you was for the purpose of reinforcing the tone of my posts.
-"Lack of scumhunting": I disagree. I was unsure of myself day 1, but since I've been doing my best to find scum.
-"Process of elimination": Sure. I don't see how you have eliminated Palmar as a suspect though.

I disagree that Palmar deserves the win as scum. Scum never deserve to win unless town lets them.

@Beck/Palmar, one of you is town and terribly wrong about me. One of you needs to wake the fuck up before we lose this game.

[Scumhunter]

Thanksgiving had me busy and I'm working 10 hours today and tomorrow.. =/

Palmar, that's a shit atttitude if you are town. At least flesh out the reasons you think I'm mafia so I can show you why you are wrong. What is most infuriating is that both you and Beck have mutual town reads on each other but haven't really explained WHY nor explained reasons for why I'm scum...One of you is a lazy townie and it will cost us the game. And Palmar, if you are town, just notice that for all the bitching you do, I'm the one willing to try and not get frustrated when it counts the most.

[Scumhunter]

Beck, can you explain again to me why Palmar is town?
Palmar, can you explain again to me why Beck is town?

[Scumhunter]

Beck, I'm not trying to be accusatory whatsoever. I'm trying to figure out who is scum. Either you or Palmar are terribly wrong town though. Even if you've explained it already can you give me like the 3 top things of why Palmar is town, it would be much appreciated:
-
-
-

[Scumhunter]

And I mean, I've responded to why you are saying I'm scum...so...

[Scumhunter]

Beck, you need to do better. If you are town its not "oh well gg to Palmar" its "oh well bad game to Beck". Don't give up and say "oh well gg" if I'm wrong. You should be fighting to the very end with an OPEN MIND. Town fail so hard at this game because they tunnel. I've been guilty of it a time or two When you get the time, I'd like you to explain why exactly Palmar is town. I wanted Johman dead for much of the game too so that doesn't really distinguish Palmar and me...Yes, please do link it when you get a chance. Both scum have flipped goon, which means the last scum role is likely some sort of a power role. It's not out of the realm of possibilities that Palmar (as a godfather/some strong powerrole) decided to bus both of his partners.

Palmar, are you still participating in this game? Is there any way you are going to change your vote? Any possibility that you will consider you are just dead wrong if you are town? Please don't just say fuck it and vote...

[Scumhunter]

Palmar, I just read your iso. The only mention of why you view Beck as town at any point is in your #73 when you describe him as "clueless" townie like at multiple points this game...Any other reasons you think he's town? You've been calling him consistently town all game, can you back that up with some reasoning?

[Scumhunter]

Iso'd both of the potential scumlords. Think Palmar is scum probably. Beck has at least been consistent of his fos on me. I'll post a mega case soon. I'm feeling lazy and just got uncharted 3.

[Scumhunter]

Palmar, of course I want to convince whichever one of you is town. The trouble is knowing which one of you that is. At this point, convincing either of you would give town a better chance at winning then what we are looking at right now...I'm not about "building cases", I'm about hunting scum. As the day goes on, I am more and more confident you are the scumlord though.

The ONLY thing you've said for why Beck is town the entire game is that he has been "clueless townielike all game". Well I suppose you did say him asking Johman to be replaced d1 is a towntell and the more I think about that one, you are probably right. A scumlord legitimately asking the mod to replace a partner for his attitude in thread is not something that most people would do. But aside from those two things you haven't given any other reasons for why Beck is town or more importantly

ANY reason whatsoever for why I'm scum.

Ok, now lets look at your last several comments about me Bolded things for emphasis.

Scumhunter has been pretty useless throughout the game,

he's thrown around a few bad reads

, and he really pushed the idea johman and 2b1s couldn't be scum together... strange. But he also suggested Johman gets vigged.

I'm inclined to agree with Scumhunter, mostly because I'm not sure how much of a risk-taker he is, but generally advocating a vigilante shot on a teammate is a bad strategy as mafia. And when it's done, it's usually done in the form of including the fellow mafia in a list of good vigilante targets, instead of calling directly for a vigi shot on the teammate.

I agree with this completely. You were aware of this yesterday. How is this any less valid right now?

The simple explanation is that scumhunter actually posted johman as a sole vigilante target. He has also

made several good calls

throughout the game, and while just like almost everyone else in this game he's been

as much a hinderance as help

, I am more confident with killing Draken. Especially after draken's few last posts.

How does "throwing around several bad reads" mesh with "making several good calls this game" and "being as much a hindrance as a help" go along with any logical train of thought. What you think of me changes with what you need to use me for. Yesterday you posted the reasons I was town to make sure I didn't think too hard about the Draken lynch and now you need the lynch bait I'm it because well looking back Beck has consistently suspected me all game.

Scumhunter hasn't actually done anything particularly bad.

Well duh. I'm town.

--------

I need to reinforce this. If weirdbeard has a JK/RB role he absolutely need to both claim it and who he would use it on tonight. I know weird has said he is out, but given his paly this game I don't completely trust he will use his role optimally, no offense intended whatsoever. It's just that if you were to haev a RB/JK power it would essentialyl give us either another investigation/another check which is very useful for obvious reasons.

^This post by me is so townie it hurts. Read it. Think about it. Weirdbeard has been known to play his power role somewhat unconventionally and tbh suboptimally. There would be absolutely no reason for me to point this out to weird and give us a chance at an extra ML/investigation as scum. As scum, there would be no reason not to just let weirdbeard sit around with whatever power roles he may or may not have and kill him. And there is no way that scum would know what power set weird might have so the negative utility of this move for scum is immense and almost impossible to explain from a scum perspective in my opinion.

^This argument is pretty compelling for why I'm town.

Also, I realize that in a way this is somewhat wifomy, but mafia is retarded for not killing weird last night. There is no way to know that he was telling the truth about being out of power roles or that he can't use the same powers again. I would have killed weird 100% last night, but that's just me and I know you can't take my word on that.

vote: Palmar

[Scumhunter]

He has stayed away from mislynches? He voted Draken and now me...

It's the not exploring any other avenue that is bad bad bad. Iso him again. Ctrl + F "Beck" and Ctrl + F "Scumhunter" Once you've read all the evidence or lack there of for either of his reads on either of us ask yourself if it makes for a townie to be so "sure" you are town Beck and so "sure" I'm scum without presenting a firm case. It's funny because you accuse me of buddying, but he's the one who has actually been lol scumlord buddying you all game!

[Scumhunter]

Palmar, you still haven't responded to either of the following in detail:
-Why am I scum?
-Why is Beck town?

You have said only a few words the entire game to either of those ends. Are you really this bad as scum that you can't up with a case? Or are you just terrible town! Would be ironic given how much you have bitched at other people this game. I'm still absolutely willing to consider you could be town and avoid this fail-ament if you are town and want to put marginal effort in here...

[Scumhunter]

How is asking for an inactive player to be replaced "cheating"?

[Scumhunter]

weird, I need you to be active... The fuck is going on in here?

[Scumhunter]

gracias monk.

[Scumhunter]

Scumhunter, you made an incorrect play by attempting to keep both your options open. Additionally, you're making an incorrect play by somehow deducing that I am scum despite being probably the most pro-town player in the game.

So, I'm fine with lynching you regardless of your alignment, I already explained that because more than 1 townie have made incorrect plays in lylo, the game is very hard to play. But you've just made two additional incorrect plays on the last day. So I don't actually care.

Palmar, what is weirdbeard doing right now? Keeping his options open. He doesn't know for sure who is scum. You keep trying to misrepresent my intentions and its either putrid town play (like literally THE WORST) or its probably better explained by you being scum.

@weird, look how Palmar has NO explanation for his read on either me or Beck. There are points in this game where Palmar is definitely capable of/uses solid logic about people's alignment. It's not that he's just moronic town, he's better than that as many of his posts show.

If Palmar, wins this game it will be to an immense amount of unbridaled aggression which as scum is a deadly weapon. You should be able to look past that...

[Scumhunter]

Weird, yes, Palmar made good cases on scum. His pushes the last 2 days have been on Draken and me though who are both town. It's called bussing early on for town credit. Read Palmar in iso.

Look at all his mentions of Beck and me this game.

There is absolutely no reason given by him to fos me over Beck and he's given no reason for why. Like literally he absolutely fucking refuses to give any reasoning because he knows there is none. He's capable of making cases. He's capable of thinking things through and using logic. He can't right now because he's smart enough to know there is no logical reason to suspect me over Beck! Both you and Beck fos me, he's sitting pretty so he won't.

To reinforce this again:

I need to reinforce this. If weirdbeard has a JK/RB role he absolutely need to both claim it and who he would use it on tonight. I know weird has said he is out, but given his paly this game I don't completely trust he will use his role optimally, no offense intended whatsoever. It's just that if you were to haev a RB/JK power it would essentialyl give us either another investigation/another check which is very useful for obvious reasons.

^This post by me is so townie it hurts. Read it. Think about it. Weirdbeard has been known to play his power role somewhat unconventionally and tbh suboptimally. There would be absolutely no reason for me to point this out to weird and give us a chance at an extra ML/investigation as scum. As scum, there would be no reason not to just let weirdbeard sit around with whatever power roles he may or may not have and kill him. And there is no way that scum would know what power set weird might have so the negative utility of this move for scum is immense and almost impossible to explain from a scum perspective in my opinion.

Weird, can you explain why I would ever, ever, ever do this as scum. I was trying to help you use your role optimally to the point where we would gain an extra ML from it. Give me one reason why I would ever make the quoted post, because that makes me pretty fucking obv town.

It's incredibly frustrating to be lynched as town, but even more so by a player who bitches the entire game about how "bad" town is, insults all of us, presents no case on lylo, refuses to give reasoning, demonstrates clear ability to think logically early in the game, even gives multiple reasons for why I'm town earlier, ignores all of those now and votes me without giving reasoning and 2 not just 1 townies completely ignore it and lynch me anyways. I mean its fucking bullshit really if you can't see that. Voting scum does not equate to auto town credit (or at least it shouldn't). It's the thought process about people's votes that show their alignment. Palmar is not a moron. He's not an agitated bad townie. He has made some really good posts and cases earlier on. The fact that his play has devolved into the fuck you I'm not providing any reasons for his vote is NOT a noob town tell whatsoever. It's indicative of him being scum and wanting to push a lynch knowing your guys are predisposed to suspect me for whatever reasons you do. I mean weirdbeard, if you aren't going to change your mind, do me a favor and hammer now. At least think about the bolded part above though, there is no fucking way I'd say that as scum. You do realize how you having an extra role would have ='d an extra investigation/mislynch right? And you do realize as scum I'd have no way to know you were out of powers right? So can you explain why I would ever ever say that as scum?

[Scumhunter]

Your posts bussing your partners were logically sound. Of course, you knew your partners alignments so you could see how they were fucking up. Your posts voting me have absolutely no logic.

CARE TO EXPLAIN WHY IM SCUM AND WHY BECK IS TOWN??????? FOR THE ONE MILLIONTH TIME? OH HERP DERP I CANT BECAUSE IM SCUM.

WEIRD, BECK WAKE THE FUCK UP. PALMAR GAVE REASONS FOR WHY IM TOWN YESTERDAY AND IS NOW BACKING OFF THAT WITHOUT ANY EXPLANATION. FOR FUCKS SAKE.

[Scumhunter]

weird, why would I try to optimize your use of your power role as scum? Why would I suggest that the vig shoot Johman specifically? Those actions make no sense for a scumlord. Not to mention I haven't done anything scummy I don't think?? Why do you think I'm scum. All 3 of you say, yea SH is probably scum, but none of you have really explained why. Actually, Beck did, but I responded to his accusations. His fos on me has been consistent allbeit terribly wrong.

I get the arrogant attitude Palmar is doing. I've been known to be an asshole from time to time. However, if I'm talking all that shit, I would be presenting actual cases. It doesn't mesh and I KNOW he is capable of solid logical play. The fact he is capable of that but not showing that today = he is the scumlord.

[Scumhunter]

I'm actually going to go through and show a compilation of competent Palmar vs no-case scum/moronic town Palmar to show that he is capable of reasoning and that his play today is not that.

Also Beck, same ? goes to you that I'm asking weirdbeard, why in the bloody hell would I try to get weird to optimize his role to get us an extra ML/investigation as scum. Like literally no chance in hell I do that as scum. Weirdbeard had already been known to play his pr unstandardly/unoptimally. Like literally no chance in hell I'd ever make that post as scum. Like zero chance. Nada. Zilch. Do you disagree?

[Scumhunter]

First off, he echoes a comment about about bear, which isn't scummy in itself, what's interesting is that when put in context of everything else he has posted it becomes obvious it's basically non-content probably posted in order to just say something.

In addition, if you announce that your vote is to start a bandwagon, or to put pressure, you have defeated the purpose. This sucks if you're town, but it's good if you're mafia because you don't actually want people to follow your lead if you're mafia unless you're a really strong player. He's basically just throwing away responsibility with this unnecessary addition.

He then writes what appears to be a big post, but it contains jokes, a silly image, and in the end there is no content in this post. The interesting thing is that this is actually a bandwagon he's joining. It's not really a problem, joining good bandwagon is always a good idea if you're town, what's troubling is that he feels the need to rehash points already made about Protector to make it look less like jumping a bandwagon. Overall I think the posting by him is generally cautious although he tries to hide it behind jokes, and I think it reeks of how I'd expect mafia to play.

Those are my main reasons.

This is a competent, well reasoned post for why Johman is scum on day 1 from Palmar.

I know I insulted TSGRaaize's EpicMafia tendencies earlier, but that last post was somewhat reasonable, though everyone has a natural bias towards posts which suggest them town (or maybe that's just me). I would go as far as to call him town, but I have something to add about him at the end of this post

Enough has happened since my last post that I'm having to re-evaluate some reads, but I'll finish talking about Johman. Last time I posted, I labelled him null-scum, but I'm not so sure now on rereading his ISO, and reading Rainbowdash's argument against the wagon on him. His defence is humourous yet logical, I like that. I also like his DP.

Also Weirdbeard, now you're just wagoning for the sake of wagoning. You didn't even respond to my points on why Palmar's case is crap.

Funnily enough, I hadn't really noticed Weirdbeard. This was my first clue that I'm not reading this game as well as I could, sorry about that guys, I'mma spend the first day of the holidays familiarising myself with the game. Anyway, I ISO'd him, and I found two things I don't like. One was this, and I will cover the other thing at the end of this post.

I still like Protector and Rainbowdash. In fact, I'm considering leaving my girlfriend for Rainbowdash.

I have nothing to say about Sir Bastion as of yet. I'mma analyse his posts tomorrow though. I love holidays so much.

PALMAR! Scum. You remember how I left judgement on TSGRaaize and Weirdbeard dangling? Well, after Palmar posted what I would consider a fairly weak case, they both sheeped it immediately. Quite literally immediately, post #54 contains the case, #55 contains TSGRaaize's vote, and #57 has Weirdbeard's vote. Palmar/TSGRaaize/Weirdbeard scumteam anyone?

Vote: Palmar

, and I'mma get myself a coffee.

I find it extremely hard to differentiate bad town play from scum play. You never know if people are being intentionally stupid or accidentally stupid. Because I don't actually know anyone in this game, I'm just going to assume you aren't terrible, and thus you're scum.

You actually believe that you have a case for figuring out three scum based on one post? The first half of your post seems quite logical, I agree that RBD should not be considered for the lynch today. I'm not as convinced Protector is town, but while I agree with him I can only assume he's agreeing because he reads the thread and achieves the same conclusions as I do.

The case against Johman isn't particularly weak, but it's not the best case in town anymore, not after this gem of a post from you.

I would like to single out his justification of the vote on me in his post:

PALMAR! Scum. You remember how I left judgement on TSGRaaize and Weirdbeard dangling? Well, after Palmar posted what I would consider a fairly weak case, they both sheeped it immediately. Quite literally immediately, post #54 contains the case, #55 contains TSGRaaize's vote, and #57 has Weirdbeard's vote. Palmar/TSGRaaize/Weirdbeard scumteam anyone?

Do you notice something weird. He calls my case weak, which is fine, I can't force people to agree with me. But that doesn't seem to be the reason he sticks his vote on me.

2birds1stone is voting for me based on the actions of two other players, not based on my own actions.

This is completely unacceptable and it's either terrible town play, or much more likely, scum play. I may look like a weak target being new on this site but I have played mafia before. I don't know the exact motivation for this attack of his, but it's not logical. I just want to re-iterate how absurd it is to attack me based on how other people react to a case brought forward by me.

I will be voting 2birds1stone for this, as it's bad logic. I believe he's being maliciously ignorant.

Vote: 2birds1stone

This is also a competent post, although its interesting how he backs off of Johman a bit here.

You're approaching it from the wrong side.

Mafia has to force themselves to be wrong in order to win the game. There is no such thing as being right as mafia, because the only way you're right is if you try to bus your teammates or vote for yourself, the former I doubt mafia would do on day 1, although I don't know how people play here, and the latter is obviously retarded.

I have no problem with people being wrong, I've already seen plenty of things that I don't agree with in this thread, and undoubtedly there are things others don't agree with me on. It's not about being wrong, it's about

HOW

you become wrong.

2birds1stone uses logic which is clearly false. I'd actually not have had a problem with it if he accused one of the people that followed my vote for bandwagoning a bad case, because that's logical. It is not necessarily right, but at least it can be supported through logic. Voting me because two people followed my vote is however straight up bad logic, thus he has become wrong in an extremely mafia-favoured way.

This is another good post. Mafia do have to FORCE themselves to be wrong, aka, what Palmar is doing today with his fos on me. Dude. Just look at these first 3 posts. Palmar is a legit smart, talented player. His reasoning on why both of his buddies are scum is spot on. I called Palmar town day 1. I liked his play. His logic. Etc. There are more posts like this that show that he's a smart enough cookie to use logic and play well. In fact day 1, he even talks about how important it is to use logic. Oh and he says "how unlikely it is that scum would bus both teammates day 1" as he is doing it! Anyways, the point of posting these 3 posts is to compare it to Palmar's late game posts. Which I will do with my next post. His reasoning and bussing early gained him tons of town credit even from me. Now lets compare that to the case on me/Beck that he gives. I'm going to quote every single thing he says about Beck/Me going into the day...

[Scumhunter]

I disagree, personally. Asking if I have a jailkeep ability is arguably just setting up WIFOM. I already get the whole Palmar reasoning vs. Palmar bitching thing, so you don't need to go over that again. Hell, I just posted up a case on why Palmar could be scum.

I think YOU could be scum cause of constant fence-sitting more than anything else. I believe neutrality is a scum tell and you've played that way all game.

You are so, so wrong about the first part. What scum motivation is there to gain from the setup wifom? How is that wifom in the first place? I was asking you about your role to help you use it better. What the fuck do you think I was doing? As scum, I'd be killing you 1000% of the time and I wouldn't give a fuck about your abilities. If you had a jailkeep role I sure as hell wouldn't want you announcing in thread who you would use it on as that = an extra investigation/ML. Plain and simple. There is NO benefit for scum to do that and all the world to gain for to say that as town. I mean I just can't understand how you don't see that. Like. Honestly. It's freaking obv. Beck, read this. Jesus.

Fence-sitting is one thing. Trying to figure out who is scum is something completely different. I always try to keep an open mind as to who might be scum. Towns #1 downfall in forum games is tunneling. It kills more games than anything else. So yes, my play is cautious, but thats a whole different thing than fencesitting. If I strongly think someone is mafia I will do everything in my power to get them lynched. I pushed the TSGR wagon hard day 1. I was wrong, but I sure as hell wasn't fencesitting.

[Scumhunter]

Weird, but that gains town an additional mislynch. Going into the night after we lynched Draken there were 5 people and 1 scum left. If scum were to no kill, that would give us an additional mislynch!

The people alive were
Weird: JOAT
bvoigt: clear
Me/Palmar/Beck: suspects.

If scum no kills, we still have 2 chances to get scum instead of 1.
If scum kills and you announce your roleblock target, when a kill goes through the roleblocked person becomes clear, essentially acting like another investigation for us! Think through it slowly if you have to...

Weirdbeard announces he's roleblocking SH.
Scum, whoever it is, decides to no kill.
That leaves the 5 of us alive with 2 chances to catch scum.

Weirbeard announces he's roleblocking SH.
Palmar chooses to kill you that night.
Your announcing in thread that you were roleblocking me clears me. While we don't have a ML (we don't have one now anyways), what we do have is an additional clear.

Result: If you were to have a RB power and announced it in thread it would result in either an additional ML for town or an additional clear. There is no other possible outcome. That's what I was trying to show you. And yea, thats pretty freaking townie if you ask me.

[Scumhunter]

Why is bvoigt scum?

because I said so

I find myself as scum I have a hard time creating cases on people I want to lynch. But at the same time I have no problem coming up with a natural case on my scumbuddies if I need to bus them. It's hard to as Palmar said himself, to "force yourself to be wrong".

Fuck it I've made up my mind.

Beck is probably town, for one he tried to get Johman replaced on day 1, and he has also been a bit clueless townielike throughout the game

Weirdbeard claimed a role that makes no sense for him to claim as scum, it kinda fits, but would also mean RBD didn't shoot anyone n2? That's weird, but assuming bvoigt isn't scum either and thus cleared by wb's claim.

This leaves Scumhunter and Draken

Scumhunter has been pretty useless throughout the game, he's thrown around a few bad reads, and he really pushed the idea johman and 2b1s couldn't be scum together... strange. But he also suggested Johman gets vigged.

Draken is another strange one, very hard to read, but he did on multiple occasions try to get 2b1s lynched. I need to read better over all their posts to figure it out.

This is the closest Palmar has ever come to explaining reads on Beck and me. Now compare that with the deep analytical scumtells he caught on to about 2b1s and Draken in the early game. They are so immensely different. One is a valid case on a scumlord, the other is a shallow appeal to lead town based on previous town cred. He can't come up with a case, because there is none and he knows it. He's having a hard time forcing himself to be wrong.

I'm inclined to agree with Scumhunter, mostly because I'm not sure how much of a risk-taker he is, but generally advocating a vigilante shot on a teammate is a bad strategy as mafia. And when it's done, it's usually done in the form of including the fellow mafia in a list of good vigilante targets, instead of calling directly for a vigi shot on the teammate.

I need to re-read Draken at least once more, but I agree that Beck is unlikely to be scum

Yes, this is a good post and good reasoning as to why I'm town. Palmar shows and reinforces good logic, but only when that logic is true and meets his ends. At this point it was fine to call me town as we were lynching Draken yesterday and he was fine with that.

ok then.

Vote: Weirdbeard

Reasons:

a) I don't care if I win anymore, I just want to punish people who are bad.

b) Weirdbeard has a guilty claim on Johman on day 2, yet he doesn't do jack shit about it

c) I think RBD shot Johman, not WB.

So, with all the evidence on the table, I have concluded that Weirdbeard is actually terrible at mafia, and thus he must be lynched.

This is post is lol bad. a) Palmar clearly cares about winning so that first part is a lie and an attempt to seem nonchalant about the game to appear like the random voting newb town persona he has been trying to establish. He is a smart cookie. Weird's claim almost had to be real due to the setup.

So you don't beleive his claim?

You think 1 shot vig and bodyguard/watcher only is enough vs 3 mafia?

You sott if have to beleive his claim or you are actually a PR that you kept hidden.

I think scumhunter is scum, not weird.

I think 1shot vigilante and bodyguard/watcher is borderline overpowered in a 13 man game with 3 mafia. But as you can maybe tell, I'm used to playing with better towns.

This post is an absolute joke. Palmar is competent enough 1-shot vigilante and bodyguard/watcher is borderline overpowered? lol k. he doesn't believe that.

I still think you're clear. It's sad we wasted 2 days on stupid shit, because we would've had more time before lylo if people just listened to me in the first place.

If you're scum then my hat goes off to you for a game well played.

Which leaves WB and Scumhunter, so it's basically lylo, between the two.

I wanna see what scumhunter has to say. I have no interest in what WB has to say because on him it's all about the claim. It's just a matter of trying to figure out if he's terrible or scum.

The "I still think you are clear is in reference to Beck, although literally every comment he has made about Beck's alignment is previously quoted in this post, aka next to nothing..

The thing is.

WB claims an incorrect play.

Scumhunter hasn't actually done anything particularly bad.

If we don't lynch WB we're at best rewarding terrible play, and at worst losing because we're too stubborn to punish people for playing badly.

Yup I haven't done anything bad as in I'm not scum.

fuck it then

Vote scumhunter

Brilliant. weird + beck, please tell me you can see the contrast between this subset of posts and Palmar's early game posts. "Fuck it" "Vote scumhunter". Really? And you still think I'm scum??

Because beck's play, despite however bad it may have been at times, he has voted for countless townies, back on day 1 he said something like "I'm gonna vote this townie, but 2b1s is not off the hook", which I found really weird at the time, and now that we know 2b1s is scum, is actually bad.

And yet, given that, he has done the least retarded things of you all.

What are these retarded things I have done? I thought I hadn't done anything all that bad. He JUST SAID I hadn't done anything all taht bad. And now Beck is town because he's done the least retarded things? Weird, you have his number with the arrogant scum insulting town to try and get their way. This is the closest thing in the ENTIRE thread that resembles anything close to an attempt at a justification for his town read on Beck.

I have no interest in discussing it further.

I ask Palmar why is Beck town and why am I scum since he hasn't mentioned any logic in regards to either. Contrast this attitude with his attitude day 1 providing copious valid cases on the scumlords. Now this attitude would make sense if he truly didn't care about the game and really had said "fuck it" but do to his continued activity, his posts every now and then with the sole purpose of getting me lynched, its apparent that he does in fact still very much case about the game. For someone who cares about the game it wouldn't be hard at all to make a couple of posts explaining specifically why Beck is town or specifically why I'm scum.

Do you even care which one of you convince scumhunter?

When you're the suspect in lylo, the worst possible play as scum or town, is to attempt to keep both options open. You sit down, and decide on one of the other possibilities and build a case. Now you're just coming across as desperately trying to convince one of us, which is incorrect play no matter your alignment. I don't care if you're scum, but I hate you if you're town.

I'm glad scumhunter took my advice and settled on one of us to convince.

I'm also glad you decided I was gonna be your target of choice, means I don't have to deal with the headache.

I have popcorn, let's see what happens.

No, as I said, if we lynch you I'm perfectly happy with the result, no matter what it is.

If Beck is the scum, I will not care as I consider his post on day 1 about asking for a replacement cheating.
If WB is the scum, I don't care, because he should have been autolynched for making the wrong play, as I have stated numerous times.

So, that leaves you!

Scumhunter, you made an incorrect play by attempting to keep both your options open. Additionally, you're making an incorrect play by somehow deducing that I am scum despite being probably the most pro-town player in the game.

So, I'm fine with lynching you regardless of your alignment, I already explained that because more than 1 townie have made incorrect plays in lylo, the game is very hard to play. But you've just made two additional incorrect plays on the last day. So I don't actually care.

I don't need any arguments. The fact you're incorrectly accusing me of being scum is enough.

It should be painfully obivous, pro-tip: The people who try to kill mafia tend to not be mafia.

Didn't you just say I'm scum?

If so, that's actually incompatible with your me "thinking logically" and "make some really good posts". Because none of the posts I've made are worth anything if I already knew their alignment, and none of the posts I've made can be good if I'm scum. So either I have been thinking logically and made some really good posts, or I've been bussing my ass off the entire game. It can't be both.

I lump these posts together because they are his response to me asking him to post reasons for his reads. Keep in mind. I'm a townie. I don't magically know everyone's alignment. Going into today I had thought both Palmar and Beck were town. I was trying to figure it out. I was asking for his reads, his logic, that he had clearly shown he was able to produce as evidenced by his early game play. Analyze his intent behind these posts. They are all to keep me down. Keep the pressure on me. Hope for a hammer soon, etc. He's not presenting any evidence just using that arrogant attitude to keep you and Beck from looking back and realizing there is no case on me...

[Scumhunter]

Alright, I see your point. It's townie, sure, but on it's own it's not enough to sway me. Plus you must have realised it was pretty unlikely for me to have another ability to use anyway. 3 abilities for a JOAT appeared to be the standard, according to the wiki. I'll concede that it's not WIFOM though. Can you point me to anywhere outside of day 1 where you've made a cohesive case on another player?

I didn't read the JOAT wiki. I've never been a JOAT, nor have I read the wiki for the role and even if I had it would still be stupidly risky to bring that up on the chance you did have more power. To what end? To use it as evidence I'm town later? Pfft. That's paranoia. Take a step back from all this for a second. You are giving yourself reasons as to why your read could still be correct as opposed to looking at the evidence as a whole. It would be retarded for me to do that as scum. You are previously in the mindset I'm scum so you are giving yourself reasons for why your read is correct. =/

I produced a case on Draken yesterday. I iso'd all 3 of the suspects yesterday and made a case on Draken. I also did push on TSGR day 1. Here is the link to my case on Draken yesterday: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p3588674

I'm not arguing this has been my best game. I've had games where I've nailed all the scum on d1 or d2. This wasn't one of those games. I did have my eye on Johman early, but I misread Palmar completely up til today and was having a hard time finding scum. Fencesitting is such an overused term. Many, many times throughout this game I've stated in thread that I wasn't confident about my scum reads, that I was having a hard time getting involved in the game, or figuring out who is scum. That makes tons of sense and all my posts support each other that that is a valid mindset that I've been in for the whole game.

Beck, read all these posts I'm making too, you need to change your mind too. If you are scum, then LOL. I think Palmar is the scum and I would puke if he wins here as scum given his absolute defiance and shitty assholish attitude. If Beck is scum, I wouldn't care as much although I do want to win. Seriously, you won't regret it if you believe me here =/

[Scumhunter]

Beck, why would it matter who he uses it on, if I kill him the next night and no one ever knows. Like why would scum give a fuck who he is using it on, if he is just going to die anyways during the night phase. If I'm the last scum and he uses it on me I'd be fucked regardless. The point was to give us the immense benefit of having a ML/extra investigation. That is an immense immense benefit.

[Scumhunter]

And the scum motivation is still completely non-existant.

[Scumhunter]

Beck + weird, you guys can get this right I know you can. Just look at the difference in the quality of Palmar's cases on his scumbuddies with the quality of his cases on town. The difference is obvobvobvobv. Look at the two samples of his posts I provided. Scum can bus naturally, but they can't naturally come up with good cases on townies. Its much more difficult!

You won't regret if you believe me here. I know that's a lame aTe, but yea, if you want to win the game you kind of can't vote me ya know? I like winning. Let's win! Winning is fun! It's better than not winning! It's much better than losing to Palmar! Let's make Palmar lose and then we win! Yay! Happy times! We can celebrate with teh pony in the post game. Completely serious right now. Believe me just because. Even if you don't, take a chance, you won't regret it. /end aTe.