Mini 1230 Xylbot is normal i swear.

[Hikari Link]

Hikari replaces brother yama

That's Hikari Link. Please don't call me Hikari. Read my signature for some alternatives.

[Hikari Link]

I should be able to catch up and post before I go to bed tonight.

[Hikari Link]

I'm moving, so once I get things situated, I will post. It should be either tomorrow or Saturday. Sorry for the delay.

[Hikari Link]

Posted Tuesday:

I should be able to catch up and post before I go to bed tonight.

Posted Thursday:

I'm moving, so once I get things situated, I will post. It should be either tomorrow or Saturday. Sorry for the delay.

So an absentee has been replaced with another absentee. Nice...

Not an absentee, it just is going to take a while. My first post is going to take about 6 straight hours to do, which I haven't had to set aside for this game yet. I'll be able to start on that tonight in about two hours.

[Hikari Link]

I have no internet sorry. i would love to post, hell id love to write some uni papers as well but both of those are nearly impossible right now.

So what's the current deadline?

[Hikari Link]

Jeses Christ, there are a lot of new members in this game. I finally I'm all caught up and ready to do this thing. I'll start out with my reads.

BBmolla

: Null-town. His post are a bit infrequent and short and he hasn't really done much to set himself apart or contribute to the town. He gives a bit of a town vibe, but at the same time, he could be lurker scum.

benoni

: Town. His avatar reminds me of a Klansman for some reason... I'm not sure if there is any significance to voting for Bub but not brothers earlier on, but since brothers wasn't scum, I can't see any. Post #275 pretty much solidified in my mind that he's town. It's just solid csework that seems like genuine scumhunting.

Bub Bidderskins

: Scum. One of the things that many have praised as a townie action, making cases for people being town, is one of the things that has me the most worried about him. It's just good scum play to do that kind of stuff, because it cements town reads and gains you friends. It is a very subtle version of buddying. Scum know who is town, so if they pick a couple people and decide to protect them subtly, then hey eliminate people from their mislynch pool, but if they can survive until LyLo with those people, then they have an easy win. That said, it could just as easily be town motivated, but for starters, the way he's posted this game just vibes scummy to me, but also, I don't think his defenses are as solid as he makes them out to be. I mean, that whole thing with GNR's "town-slip" seems like horse shit to me. If anything, I'd call it a null tell, leaning scum playing ignorant. To me it's akin to saying "oh shit" when the Cop is night killed; town could say it, but it feels more like something scum trying to look town would say.

DTMaster

: Null. Needs a replacement, since he hasn't posted in over 2 weeks. His posts are mostly incomprehensible and barely worth my time to read.

Frogsterking

: Scum. Post #45 makes no sense to me as a case. He doesn't actually do a lot of casework when he votes, so it's not easy to see any of his reasoning and he certainly doesn't strike me as having town motivation. I also don't like Bub's adamant defense of him or vice versa, though it seems strange that they would so openly watch out for each other as scum buddies. Not to say that they aren't, because I fully think that they are.

Guy_Named_Riggs

: Scum-lean. He's defensive, which I've gone on record before is not scummy in and of itself and I hold to that, but coupled with his general lack of scumhunting and his constant mantra of "I'm town" and "why do you suspect me?" I'm sort of leaning scum. At the same time, he gives off a new-town vibe, s it's only a minor scum read.

Jackal711/Nikanor

: Null. Jackal's done nothing but answer the RQS questions and Nikanor... why do they both have cat-themed avatars? Anyway, distractions aside, Nikanor has not really done anything this game either.

Lobstermania

: Null. Man, there are a lot of inactive people in this game.

Lowell

: Null. There needs to be more elaborations from him. Never found out why he voted Bub in Post #51 and I can't really tell where his head is at right now.

Smear

: Scum-lean. What can I say that hasn't already been said by benoni? Mot much.

Subcomfreak

: Town. The main reason aside from just generally good posting is his vote and continued pressure on Bub. Too many people have been letting Bub get by for too long with virtually no scrutiny and I've personally had enough of it. The only thing that has me concerned is his ridiculously strong suspicion of Brothers. But I'm willing to accept that sometimes people are just wrong.

VOTE: Frogsterking

I want to say that's L-1 and I personally endorse a hammer, since we have a claim from him.

And my answers to the RVS questions are

1. This is my 6th game on this site (7th counting my hydra). I've got abut 3 games under my belt on another site.

2. Really depends on the situation. If they are unlikely to get lynched otherwise and/or I think I can WIFOM my way out of death, then I'd likely claim. Otherwise, I'd try to push the lynch more casually and get it done to survive another day.

If anyone has any questions for me, feel free to ask. I should be fairly active now.

[Hikari Link]

VOTE: Frogsterking

I am convinced at this point that he is scum based on a reread.

I will try to post a more detailed analysis later. Annoying to type long posts on my phone.

Also want to apologize for limited activity. I was unexpectedly out of town this weekend with very limited net access.

Well thankfully that wasn't actually the hammer, since Subcomfreak's vote is currently on me. I really hate when people claim they will explain themselves near the end of a day, because then they have an excuse when they don't have to.

UNVOTE: Frogsterking

I'm willing to wait, but I want to hear what you have to say before we have this lynch.

[Hikari Link]

@link, you betcha I have a strond suspicion of brothers. Ohh wait aren't you that guy? Yeah, that would naturally be what you would say wouldn't it? Most of your reads are pretty good. I could go onto the frog wagon if you needed another vote. Quite frankly, we need the flips.

Yes, it would be what I'd say. The fact that you are an alt means I'd expect you to have seen town who have replaced out before when under pressure. It's really not a scum tell. I'll look up some examples later on, but off the top of my head, I remember Captain Corporal in Newbie 1119. It's in my wiki.

Link is in Brother's slot if I remember correctly. I think he's off to a pretty awful start.

VOTE: Frogsterking

I want to say that's L-1 and I personally endorse a hammer, since we have a claim from him.

Well thankfully that wasn't actually the hammer, since Subcomfreak's vote is currently on me. I really hate when people claim they will explain themselves near the end of a day, because then they have an excuse when they don't have to.

UNVOTE: Frogsterking

I'm willing to wait, but I want to hear what you have to say before we have this lynch.

Really?

I want to say that's L-1 and I personally endorse a hammer

Well thankfully that wasn't actually the hammer

Really?

Oh, I'm sorry. Maybe you didn't read this post.

VOTE: Frogsterking

I am convinced at this point that he is scum based on a reread.

I will try to post a more detailed analysis later. Annoying to type long posts on my phone.

Also want to apologize for limited activity. I was unexpectedly out of town this weekend with very limited net access.

I'm not in the business of letting people promise content, then weasel out of it because the day ends.

[Hikari Link]

Deadline will go 1 week after i find a replacement, and if it enters night before then night wont end tell the last replacement. i have 2 essays to write and will votecount after im done that.

We need 2 replacements. For Lobstermania and DTMaster.

[Hikari Link]

Bleh I don't have time for this. Had a long post ready that took 2 hours to prepare then my computer crashes.

Vote: Frogsterking, Smear

Claim:

Town Double Voter

Wait, why did you just do that? Serious question.Why the fuck would claim when there was zero pressure?

There's really no point in asking until we get a vote count. Since it is probably true, it seems like incredibly stupid claim, but there's really not much to be done about it at this point. At this point my theory is either freakish incompetence or ridiculous laziness. His join date is so recent as to imply incredible newbiness, while the only justification I can think of aside from that is that he was just too damn lazy to justify any of his analysis and wanted easy towncred.

@HL, yup, Ihave seen town do it, but I have also seen scum do it. I don't put too much stock into that, but I think he needs the lynch. Frog is also pretty good, he would be me forth. read.

And I still don't see the reasoning.Even before I realized I was his replacement on page 5, he pretty obviously read as newb town.

hmmm... maybe I have played with HL before... Yes, I think I have. Not 100% though.

Simple test for that. Look at my wiki. Have you been in one of the listed games? If no, we haven't played together.

[Hikari Link]

ggogo town or whatever

If Frog isn't dead then he seriously just townslipped.

I have no idea how you could even remotely believe that as town.

Hnestly, at this point I could go either way between Bub and Frogster. Frogster could just be very terrible newb town that Bub is trying to protect and buddy to gain his trust though, but at this point I really can't see any reasoning for Bub's play that isn't scum motivated.

VOTE: Bub Bidderskins

@

Jackal

: You are aware that just because you have claimed and proven that you are the Double Voter doesn't mean that you are now excused from posting content, right? You could still be a scum Double Voter, I think and as a claimed PR, it's also your job to become as useful as possible in scumhunting. Unclaimed, you have a bit of a pass because you may not want to draw too much attention to yourself and be night killed, but once you claim, that is no longer an issue and it means you need to get to work.

[Hikari Link]

^thanks for the bus.

Frogster, I'm not sure if you are directing this at me or bb, but read my post. You are number four on my scum list. And being number four on my scum list isn't a half bad lynch... Bub should eat rope over frog though. Then it will most likly be smears turn. Then on d-3 we can lynch HL.

You're case against me is still utter shit and the order you have is really not likely to happen. I'm still okay with a Frogster lynch today, but I'd rather have a Bub lynch as well so on this point we are in agreement. What does everyone else think about Bub?

[Hikari Link]

okay, if/when bub flips scum I will have to do a major iso read to see his stances on everybody. Because quote frankly, I think that we could gain some really powerful association tells from him.

You are still on the wrong account.

[Hikari Link]

Who the hell is Cooldog

Obviously Subcomfreak.

[Hikari Link]

Who the hell is Cooldog

Obviously Subcomfreak.

damn, is my meta not that strong all of a sudden?

I think the only person who honestly gives a shit about your meta is you. I honestly don't think hiding your meta is that big of a deal anyway, honestly. If you play every game as though you are a VT up until the moment you claim or get outted as scum, then you honestly shouldn't have a problem. And then you don't need to keep creating alts every time you establish a meta for yourself or accidentally out your alt. That's just my two cents.

[Hikari Link]

I don't see why we don't just kill Bub and Smear today. We aren't likely to get another chance at a double lynch due to Jackal's claim and it's our best chance at taking out two scum at once. Bub and Frogster would be alright too, I don't really care.

[Hikari Link]

I am town vigilante.

Hrm.

Not sure what to think about this.

Should we test the claim? Or do you guys just think it's a fake claim?

It's not that hard to test, honestly. If he survives the night and nobody extra dies, it means that his claim is either fake or he's been roleblocked. At that point, we can discuss the merits of lynching him versus letting him live versus lynching him. So right now I think that we need to look at Bub more closely. I'm going to build my case tomorrow in all likelihood unless I come up on some free time today. He's scum and he's got to go.

[Hikari Link]

Vig claim is easily testable. Smear, kill benoi tonight please.

@Bub I'm a bit curious why you keep reaffirming that Frog is town. Could you explain this read to me?

In regards to Smear, I'd be fine with voting him, however I feel Frog is scummier atm.

Frog is town because he's so obnoxious and blatantly anti-town. Being flaboyantly anti-town is a town-tell, especially since he's not experienced enough to pull some crap like that as scum.

That's bullshit and you know it. He could just as easily be so bad at being scum that he doesn't even realize he's being anti-town. And being experienced or not does not determine whether or not a person call pull a gambit like that. It's shit like this that makes me think you are scum. Your shit tells smell and now I gotta check your meta to see whether this is how you usually play it or if it's just how you play it as scum.

[Hikari Link]

Bub ISO gona have to wait for Friday. Gotta wake up early and I'll be gone all day tomorrow.

[Hikari Link]

A cursory glance at Bub's meta doesn't seem to turn up anything. If he's defended others before in anything akin t he manner he is now, I haven't seen it. For everyone's convenience, this is ever instance of him defending another player (unless I missed something):

Spoiler:

Hello everyone!

I'd like to ask everyone a few questions just know of everyone's experience and philosophy. Now this isn't required, but I'd appreciate it and it'll help me read you earlier.

1 -

Experience

- What is your prior experience with Mafia? How many games have you played at Mafiascum? How many games have you played elsewhere?
2 -

Philosophy

- If you were a cop and got a guilty on night one, would you out the guilty that day(not knowing if there is any protection of course) or would you try to get the other scum before outing?

I'll give my philosophy after I see some of yours.

1: I have participated in a total of 18 games on-site, including replacement games and games I played as a hydra. I don't have any off-site experience worth mentioning.
2: Out right at the start. You've got confirmed scum, and it's very rare for a cop to catch more than one scum. Catching one scum is actually already above average.

Also, Nikanor and Smear are town. Nikanor was the first to confirm and goofed around in the confirmation stage a lot. Scum don't goof around in the game thread in confirmation stage; they goof around in the scumtalk thread. Smear's questions come from a town perspective.

The wagon on Smear is weak, but it's just as likely town getting a bandwagon going as it is scum pushing a weak wagon. However, I don't like Lowell's vote:

[quote="

vote smear

found one.

Is this a serious vote or a random vote?

vote: Lowell[/quote]

Brothers, inconsistent-looking scumhunting won't win you town points and it won't catch scum either.

Unvote; Vote: benoi

This looks like scum coaching. Why say "it won't earn you town points"? That just seems odd. And also, there is nothing backing it up. No vote. No FoS. Not even a push. Just a very weak, veiled threat with nothing behind it.

BTW, Lowell looks town right now. It seems like his positions are coming from a townish perspective, and while he is Lowell, he seems to be trying to find scum. Also, I seriously doubt that scum would admit to their own OMGUS vote.

I did a iso of Riggs, and I found out what I suspected: that he's town. He town slipped in #65 (iso #2)

Do we even know how many mafia members there are in this game?

This is screaming noob-town so hard it makes my eyes hurt. If he were mafia, he would never ask that question. Since he's town, I'll bet there are scum on that wagon.

Smear's vote on him looks kind of lazy, and then he backs off of it later in response to pressure. I don't like it. Benoi's vote is in a convenient spot. It looks like he expressed some weak suspision on riggs earlier, but waited for Subcomfreak to get on board before voting for riggs himself. That interaction, and Subcomfreak admitting that his vote is lazy, makes me lean town on Subbers.

Also, this is the most pro-town I have ever seen Lowell play. Ever.

Bro, scum can pretend to be town. In the game of Mafia, the scum often adopt the strategy of avoiding detection by pretending to be town. I know it's hard to understand, since it's such a clever and tricky strategy, but bear with me.

Yeah, but not noob scum in that way. There is no way that a player with only a couple of games worth of experience would pull

that

off as scum.

Yeah, Frogster's definately town. I really don't like how that wagon built up. Smear is suspect. I don't like the position of Subcomfreak's vote, but the shamelessness of it makes me again lean town on him. Lobster can also be scum, but I don't comfortable putting pressure on a dead slot.

Oh, and Benoi is still being totally useless to the town. Why is the wagon on the obvtown guy and not the obvscum guy?

Frog is an anti-town townie. Case in point:

Hey u guys r supposed to lynch the mafia lmao

When scum are pressured, they do not respond with "LOL lynch da mafia." At frogster's level of expertise, they tend to freak out.

And yes, I do have a scumread on benoi as well as lobster. I wish lobster would post more, though.

?

You can go 1. ... e5

I usually go 1. ... c6

This makes no sense.
What does e5, e4, and c6 have to do with anything?

It's a chess game that needs to stop right now. Seriously people, we need to focus back on the game now that we've got some replacements.

@MOD: Any chance of a vote count in the near future?

@Subcomfreak:

The reason why I think Benoi is scum is as follows:

1. He made repeated weak attacks against brothers without ever voting for him early in the game.
2. Despite this, he OMGUSed me with no problem.
3. Conviently placed vote on Riggs only after the wagon got bigger (even though he weakly attacked Riggs before the wagon was big)
4. Persisted in the idea that Riggs could be scum even after Riggs' town-slip was revealed, showing how he didn't want to concede a confirmed town player to the town.


Overall, I think it's a pretty strong case. At least stronger than the frogster one.

ggogo town or whatever

If Frog isn't dead then he seriously just townslipped.

Vig claim is easily testable. Smear, kill benoi tonight please.

@Bub I'm a bit curious why you keep reaffirming that Frog is town. Could you explain this read to me?

In regards to Smear, I'd be fine with voting him, however I feel Frog is scummier atm.

Frog is town because he's so obnoxious and blatantly anti-town. Being flaboyantly anti-town is a town-tell, especially since he's not experienced enough to pull some crap like that as scum.

I'm not going to lynch town, and frogster's town.

What's extremely suspicious to me is how Bub is willing to defend someone at the drop of a hat for vaguely explained reasons.

BBmolla: Asked some fairly standard RQS questions, so he must be town.

Nikanor: Dicked around pre-game, so he must be town.

Lowell: "Positions are coming from a townish perspective" and admitted to OMGUS, so he must be town.

Riggs: "Town slipped" which is an even more bullshit reason for something than a scum slip. A town slip makes no sense because scum can pick there words in such a way that they look town. It's easy and extremely basic for scum to play dumb so it looks like they have no idea what they are doing. And the fact that he uses this as a case against benoni and goes as far as to call Riggs confirmed town based solely on this "slip" is fucking laughable.

Frogster: "Definitely town" for unexplained reason in #219, which he then goes on to explain are because he didn't freak out when people were voting him. The problem with this is that newb town are just as likely to freak the fuck out when they are being voted for if that is there inclination. I remember in my first game ever, I got voted for some random reason and I just brushed it off, but then it turned into a wagon because I didn't defend my self and I started freaking the fuck out and trying to defend myself as best as possible. The point of this story is that there's nothing inherently town about being nonchalant when people are voting you.

Also, again with the town slip bullshit. Saying "gogo town" at L-1 is 1. not a slip and 2. not even a towntell. It's in line with his general attitude of not giving a fuck, but apathy is not a towntell.

Subcomfreak: Town because he shamelessly cast a lazy vote? Nothing about that is remotely town.

benoni: Bub has a really sweet setup here. On one hand, benoni is one of his major targets, on the other hand, he's created some flip-flop room by making statements such as "despite me attacking him constanty he still thinks I'm town, which makes me think he's honestly trying to find scum rather than defend himself, although that could go either way" so that he can call him town now, but still get back on him if the winds start blowing in that direction. And by setting up the theory that is Smear is town, benoni is scum and vice versa, he can jump on the wagon tomorrow should one be lynched today.

As I hope you can all see, many of these town proclamations are half-cocked and far stronger than they have any right to be. And I use the word 'proclamation' rather than 'read' because a read implies certain things. For starters, it's typically backed up by some legitimate reasoning. And the reads aren't made with such force. It's not particularly in the town's best interest to speak in such absolutes over such paltry reasons.

What's more, proclaiming other players as town is not an inherently town action. There's plenty of trust to be gained by calling people town rather than calling them scum. It's a great way to manipulate people and get them to trust you. You know you are town and having someone out there who has your back feels comforting, but it just luls you into a false sense of security. Buddying is dangerous.

[Hikari Link]

^wanna bet everybody that he says is town actually is town?

unvtote, vote: bub

If I'm not already.

Also, on the meta thing... I have hydred 2 games with bub. I know how he plays. This is consistent with his scum mentality. Not necessarily his specific moves, but with the general way he thinks when he plays scum. He does want to commit unless he gets a good lynch prospect, which is exactly what we are seeing here.

All votes need to go on Bub and then Smear needs to publicize his vig target. Then we all need to get down on our knees and pray for a doc save... Wait,

@smear, how many shots you got?

I wouldn't be willing to bet that Bub was telling the truth on his own. First of all, Frogster continues to look independently scummy, especially with his current frantic defense of Bub. Second, I am not sure he's do it that way because if his plan backfired, he'd easily get his team lynched. From a scum perspective, it's good to get at least one buddy some towncred too and the fact that he's naming so many people town means that we can't possibly determine who is one of his buddies in there.

Regarding Smear

: There's no reason to make it a public target. Doing so is just more likely to get us screwed. There are many more bad scenario's if we get him to make a public shot rather than a private shot. Public decisions are better for things like Doctor or Jailkeeper. Aggressive roles like Cop or Vig can be sabotaged more easily if the target is known. They could kill and roleblock him if it's scum he is targeting or they could take it that direction even if it is town so that we think it's scum. They could kill the same person. It's arguably a waste of a kill, but when only one kill goes through, we are less inclined to trust him and so he can be mislynched more easily. They could simply roleblock him and keep him alive and kill someone else, though admittedly, they could do so even if his target isn't public. By leaving it on him to decide, we cut down scum responsiveness, which is a plus. And he shouldn't claim his number of shots either. If he has less shots, it makes him less of a threat and he'll be less likely to be targeted when it would be better if he was and if he has no limit, it will make him a higher priority when he shouldn't be. One shot also means that they can let him shoot once without them shooting and from then on they can kill while he looks bad or vice cersa, he can be scum hiding behind the fact that he can't shoot anymore.

Also, I'm just putting it out there, but I think I'm likely the kill target tonight. I'd normally be content in my towniness that I would likely have Doc protection or at least that there would be the threat of Doc protection and so the mafia wouldn't come for me, but in this situation, I've got a few problems.

1. I replaced into a slot people think is scum.
2. We have two claimed town PRs that are more likely to get protection.
3. We've got a Vig claim who could also potentially shoot me.
4. I'm about to get scum lynched, probably.

@

Everyone

: So in case I do die, I've got a couple things to say:

Frogster should probably be lynched soon. He seems like scum who thinks trolling is a valid strategy to stay alive.

Don't trust CooLDoG/Subcomfreak. His interaction with Bub could be a bus for massive towncred. Don't dismiss anybody, because you never know when they are just amazing scum. Something seems off about his play, including him riding Jackal for his reason for claiming when at this point, it doesn't matter because it's true. It was dumb as shit to do, but there's really no reason to dwell on it. Also, I don't care for the way he's handled the Smear claim. It could be that I just have a different way of handling the claim, but the fact that so many negative things could happen based on what he's requested of Smear makes me more than a bit wary.

Don't quick-lynch Smear just because there is no night kill. Scum will try to set up any mislynch they can and constantly blocking Smear, if they've got a Roleblocker, is a great way to take away trust. Give him two or three days to get a shot off before you lynch him. And it should go without saying that there should be no counter-claim. If there is a real Vig, fucking shoot Smear.

Main reason I'm saying this stuff is because I have no idea where the vote count is.

Remember not to hammer until he has claimed. I think for the sake of safety, it's better if we get him at L-2 with two people expressing intent to vote him, so that as scum he can't self-hammer and as a PR, scum can't quick-hammer after his claim. My theory right now is that scum Bub is more likely to claim PR while to town Bub is more likely to claim VT with the sad irony being that we should lynch in the situation where he's more likely to be town and let him live in the situation where he's more likely to be scum.

[Hikari Link]

Ohh one thing before I get to my real post. HL, I'm currently going through the normal game review process and because of that I had to look on the wiki page as to what roles I could include in my game. X-shot vigs are not allowed in mini norms, thus he can kill as many people as nights that he is alive. I answered my own question by looking back at that page.

You are either lying or you can't read very well.

Closed Normal Games should satisfy the following rules:
The game should have at least one Mafia or Werewolf group (of at least two members). A second anti-town group can be given a separate Mafia family name, or can be a Werewolf group. There should be no more than two mafia/werewolf factions, and no more than one Serial Killer.
The game must contain at least one Vanilla Townie (allowed names include: Townie, Vanilla Townie, Innocent Townsperson, Citizen). A sample Role PM for the Vanilla Townie must be included in the rules post.
Mechanics which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
Those affecting a role's alignment (no Cults).
Anything which significantly affects the core mechanic of majority/plurality lynches (no Kingmaker, for example).
Anything resolving with a random element, with the exception of missed night choices. It must be included in the public ruleset if you are resolving night choices in this way.
Post Restrictions (other than those included in the ruleset, such as "No quoting your Role PM").
Lying to the players, including False Role Reveals and "Scum Masons".
Night action redirection (no Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, or Redirector).
Alignments other than Mafia/Werewolf, Pro-Town, and Serial Killer (no Survivor, Lyncher, or Jester).

Roles which are explicitly Normal include:

Vanilla Townie, Sane Cop, Doctor,

Vigilante

, Roleblocker, Mason, Innocent Child, Jailkeeper, Tracker, Watcher, Gunsmith, Miller, Bodyguard, Role Cop, Doublevoter, Hider, Neighbor, Neighborizer, Jack of All Trades, Serial Killer, Mafia Goon, Mafia Traitor, Mafia Godfather, Mafia Framer, Mafia-aligned versions of above roles

Modifiers which are explicitly Normal include:

Even/Odd Night, Non-Consecutive Night,

X-Shot

, Bulletproof, Neighbor, Compulsive, Macho, Weak, Backup (with or without primary role present)
Roles which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
Non-Sane Cop, Blank Vig, Non-Sane or Quack Doctor, Janitor, Survivor, Lyncher, Cultist, Jester, Mafia Mason, Bus Driver, Lightning Rod, Nexus, Redirector.
Modifiers which are explicitly Non-Normal include:
N/A
Normal Games may use any amount of approved roles (so long as there is at least one Vanilla Townie) in conjunction with approved modifiers.
New/variant roles may be included in limited number (no more than 1 in a Mini, 2 in a Large), and should be based on the usual role mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Blocking, Voting, Enabling and Communication.
Games which are otherwise Normal may still be more suited to a different Queue. For example, a game with a large number of Doctors may be better run as an Open Game (after review in the Open Discussion Thread) or as a "Hospital" Themed Game.
Prior to running, all Normal Games are subject to a mandatory review for normalcy and balance by the Normal Game Review Group. To learn more about this process, visit this page.

I've seen that fucking page far too often at this point to not know that.

[Hikari Link]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bub

Seeing what people have said, and also the huge push on Frog being a beacon of towniness, which I don't see, leads me to this vote.

What a surprise you follow the trend yet again?

Do you happen to have a chain saw. This is noted for a future time.

There are mafia on Dub's wagon

As well as this. Any given wagon on town that goes to lynch will have some scum on it. That is a fact, you can quote me on it. Who are the scum on his wagon anyway? BB for sure, but who else. I noticed the plural.

HL/smear. This is where I disagree with common practice in dealing with vigs. While normally I do think that the vig should not say his target, I personally think that with a scummy player claiming vig it is best that he goes public with his target. If he doesn't it closes the door on directing the very likely possibility of an sk. Now to try to out guess the mod here, but I would not be entirely unsurprised if there was one. Lazy (no offense, I am being objective) and noobish mods tend to have SKs, for better or for worse. Who doesn't want the thrill of a very swingy set-up? I personally want a public target for at least the first night. I don't want to deal with bullshit doc saves and other crap that a town player might do at random.

Directing him doesn't make it any less possible that he's an SK, so that point is moot and even if he is an SK, I'm really not afraid of him. He'll probably de before LyLo and if not, the town can play it by ear. If it's obvious that there is an SK or Vig, I'd rather let him live and if there has never been an additional night kill and he is alive, then it's probably best to kill him. My thought process there is I'd rather see an SK win than Mafia, because I like an underdog.

HL on him wanting the doc.

First off, never direct docs to yourself if you do not have a power role and there is a claimed one. Much less two. Even though I think that you could actually be town (as much as I fucking hate to say it) we need to have someone on at least one of the PRs. The possibility of an infinite shot vig is to important to lose to wifom.

I didn't. Not directly anyway. I actually kind of stated the opposite. What I did was make it seem like I'd be a likely target so that I could plant the idea in the mind of the Mafia that targeting me is a good idea and subtlety direct the Doc in my direction so that we'd have a chance to avoid a kill altogether. And if not, perhaps the Mafia would see through that and n not come after me. Or they would target me and a PR would survive. I have no particular problem dying when it's necessary, but I think at this point a sharp mind is more important than a power role, so keeping myself around is advantageous. Also, you don't really know whether or not I'm a PR who was trying to hint that he needs protection. Scum points for not just keeping your mouth shut about it.

second, as scum I would flip the coin 9/10 if I have a vig shooting tonight and someone wanting doc protection. I would slam my kill on that 2x voter faster than the mod can open the QT for night talk. I'm being serious...

And I fully expect that as well and I was sort of hoping the Doc would see that option too, coupled with the fact that the Vig could end up being hard to confirm, but as usual, you have said something that was really better off not being said. I was trying to make it seem like the Doc options were between the three of us, so that the Doc would choose one of the threwe and so that scum would either follow suit and hopefully pick wrong or pick up on the danger and go for a safer side kill.

@HL CooLDoG thing.

Ohh, don't worry I am amazing at scum. My town play does still lack a little . I want to know why jakle thought it necessary to claim. Why did he keep dodging? For me the issue kept building the longer he refused to answer the question. I have also explained why I want the vig to claim. Yes this is very much counter to the generally accept way of dealing with a vig claim. But guess what, that is how I would personally handle a vig claim in an ideal world where I am god over all the cute animals. But you are right, Don't trust anybody. I have been screwed over many times by sticking too strongly to town reads. Once bub hits the rope and we get some good replacements (we are getting those now, woop woop) we really need to get into hard core scum hunting. Mostly dealing with association tells to bub.

Bub association is just about useless. He's defended too many people to decipher who is town and who isn't based on that alone. And he was widely accepted as town enough so that it's entirely justifiable to stick to a town read on him. Aside from that, I don't really care what your feelings on why the Vig should call his shot are, because I think they are bad. Nothing you've said on the subject has been particularly sound in the logic department.

ninja edit: wait... I could put a 1-shot vig in my game. THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING. [/joke]. Honestly, I thought you could not put x-shots in a mini norm. for real. But, you activat4d my trap card: hahahaha!,

Vigilante (town; very common; 4+ players): You can kill other players. Actions: kill

So I wasn't wrong. But I honsetly did not think you could put an x-shot in a norm game.

I don't see the point of the link, I'm more concerned with the fact that you tried to perpetuate an unlimited shot Vig after I said that such a Vig is a bigger target for scum and that we don't want him as a target. Whether or not that was poor town play or scum trying to orchestrate events I don't really know, but everything you do is filling me with distrust for you and should I die, others should scrutinize you closely. Hell, even if I live, they should, but while I'm alive, I'll always be round to point it out.

@

Town

: Don't take my death at night as indication one way or the other of CooLDoG's alignment. It could just as easily be mafia trying to implicate him as it could be him trying to get rid of a threat. Look at the content of his actions to judge him.

[Hikari Link]

^don't try to say that you don't want the doc protect.

I didn't say that I don't want it, I said I didn't directly ask for it and that you fucked things up by mentioning it.

Also, I'm just putting it out there, but I think I'm likely the kill target tonight. I'd normally be content in my towniness that I would likely have Doc protection or at least that there would be the threat of Doc protection and so the mafia wouldn't come for me

So you are the likely target but don't protect me? Is that what you are trying to say? If you are the most likley target than you should be protected... Also, why would scum kill a scummy slot?

No, I already fully explained my aim at the time, so don't try to twist it. And the reason they'd kill me is because, the slot is becoming less scummy as I post. I have a tendency to have that affect, because I'm a very pro-town player and I realize that. In addition, I also realize that I am a very useful player and a scum flip from Bub makes me a very dangerous player to them. As I said, a sharp mind is sometimes better than a power role. What good is a PR if you can't put it to use properly, not to say that the current claimed PRs can't put their powers to use properly, just that I think I'm an overall more useful player.

[Hikari Link]

^doesn't get it. http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... Version.29 try that there. I actually don't like tar at all, but this can actually apply if bub flips scum.

@hl, so this was all some elaborate night action directing scheme? Okay, I'm glad I broke that up. Don't try to direct night actions when your slot was scummy as hell before you came into the game.

more bub votes plox

I'll attempt to direct whatever night actions I choose and I really don't care how you feel about that.

[Hikari Link]

^fine, you go ahead and do that. So directing the vig is not okay... but directing the doc to you is fine. Okay... I wouldn't suggest the PRs to listen to him, but hay, whatever.

Actually, directing the Doctor directly is not particularly helpful at this point, which is why I wasn't trying to do that.Indirectly directing the Doctor and by extension, the Mafia, was the way to go, but that tie is long gone. Directing the Vig isn't even always a bad idea, it's just a bad idea right now.

[Hikari Link]

Hikari do you think I'm Town now

I think you're Town so you and we can be Town buddies

Don't call me Hikari, bro. I don't think you are town. I think you are scum desperate to have people think you are town because you are in trouble. But we're lynching Bub today, so it's not relevant. If you are town, you have until tomorrow to start scumhunting and prove it.

Wait do you people actually use wiki tells on this site. lol...

No, not generally, but it works on noobs like you .

@benoi, yeah he hasn't done this before. But his mentality is the same as his scum mentality is. He is just trying to get town cred when they flip town. He is currently crashing and burning.

Ohhh yeah, So link, you weren't directing the doc in your post...

Scum

vig should kill you for that...

I'm not going to keep repeating myself. You know good and well what I was trying to do. Stop bullshiting me like I did anything that was wrong. I'll do whatever I think is right for a town win.

Hikari ur wrong my behaviour is in my meta. GNR can confirm

While I would say, did not see this coming, frog does play like this, even if it's annoying. I haven't played with him enough to know if that's how he plays as town, or just overall. The only other game I was in with him, he was town.

There's no scum meta to compare it to, so the information is completely moot.

since when do people get away with saying "hey guys, I bet I'm the scumkill tonight" and us playing along?

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "playing along" or what I'm "getting away with".

[Hikari Link]

VOTE: Hikari

Care to offer up a reason? Or is it just to spite me? Considering you need what I asked you not to do, I'd wager that's the reason.

[Hikari Link]

UNVOTE: Hikari

it was a reaction test. You passed

Are you trying to test how many times you can call me Hikari without pissing me off? Because I really don't see what else you could hope to accomplish by voting me and then unvoting me.

[Hikari Link]

Guys. We have just won the game. Lets go ahead and lynch already.

The scum are with 90% certainty
bub
frog
brothers/HL (not there is someone named hiraki on the site other than HL)

game ove guys. Its been fun. Long deadlines made this possible... Now lets get to lynching.

It's not over by a long shot. We'll see how Bub fips and then Frogster and from there we'll see who scum is. My money right now is on you, but we'll see what happens in time. You really should state your case on me so I can prove how wrong you are. My understanding at this point is that brothers replaced out (which is not a scumtell, by the way) and I think that I tried to influence the Doctor, which again isn't even remotely a scumtell. There is nothing wrong with directing PRs as long as you do it right.

[Hikari Link]

@Mod:

DTMaster still needs replacement too. He hasn't posted in a month.

[Hikari Link]

@Mod

: Is Jackal being replaced or did he decide to stay in?

@HowardRoark: The day ended before I had a chance to read and respond to your question. Lowell is dead, Jackal is most likely town, and the other two nulls are still lacking in the post department, I believe.

@Smear & Jackal/Jackal's Replacement: Just because you guys are claimed PRs doesn't mean that you can get by without contributing. If anything, it's more important because we need to be sure that you aren't scum.

My current memory of this game is pretty vague, the only thing I can remember is Frogster being scummy and not trusting CooLDoG. I also believe that Smear claimed Vig. I'm going to reread the game over the course of this weekend, but we need to get our shit together, because I feel our activity level has been far too low.

What I'd like to see from everyone is their current reads with clearly defined reasoning for said reads. Hopefully, this will be the first step towards getting the situation under control. I may revise my reads as I see fit, but I don't think much changed between my reads and the lynch.

We also need to discuss what to do about Smear. I find it unlikely that he targeted Lowell and that scum did as well, meaning that if his claim is true, we've got ourselves a Roleblocer on our hands. The other possibility is that he's lying. My current stance is that we keep him alive for now. I'd suggest saving his lynch for as long as possible in hopes of hitting a Roleblocker, as Mafia are more likely to kill him if we hit the Roleblocker. However, we will probably need to take him out before we reach LyLo if we don't get the Roleblocker, because in LyLo, a Vig is useless and we probably don't want to gamble the game on that.

[Hikari Link]

@mod

- With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

@hikari

- your post makes me very uncomfortable. You are making a lot of assumptions without asking a basic question:

@Smear

- did you target somebody last night and if so, who?

That's a question that I felt didn't need asking. I assume a claimed Vig who was unable to get a kill off will explain every detail of his nighttime escapades. What possible scum motivation is there for leaving other options out?

EBWOP - Hikari Link

I generally don't read signatures, but just got to the post in the game where you replaced and asked not to be called Hikari. Considered leaving it just to see how you respond to the conflict, but I don't want to misinterpret genuine frustration.

It would have amounted to me saying something like "please read my signature" or "please don't call me Hikari" and me just being slightly annoyed with you, so thank you for correcting it.

Hikari automatically jumped to a role blocker conclusion.

But you can see why at this point.

Also, I'm just putting it out there, but I think I'm likely the kill target tonight. I'd normally be content in my towniness that I would likely have Doc protection or at least that there would be the threat of Doc protection and so the mafia wouldn't come for me, but in this situation, I've got a few problems.

This is just absolutely horrible. Why would you have been a target if your predecessor was a scum read for many players? Why would you be a target with 2 town PRs claimed?

Three reasons. First, I always assume myself to be a scum target, because I view myself as a legitimate threat to mafia. Second, I expected my public image to turn around with the lynch of Bub, but him flipping town sort of threw a wrench in that plan. And as we saw with the death of Lowell, the concern I had wasn't unfounded. Third, I had become one of the more active and vocal players, which is dangerous in a game filled with inactive players. It becomes much harder to coast like that.

OK, so game read is done. This is going to be a tough one because there is a lot of questionable play going on. Here is my current list of reads. Anybody not included is null either due to inactivity or too close to middle of the road to be worth discussing for me ATM.

If it's not too much trouble, I'd like to hear about the middle of the road guys. The lack of content guys obviously need no explanation, but with the middle of the road guys, at least we'll have a frame of reference should your view shift on them and if there was anything strange you picked up about them, it might be worth noting

Brothers / HL

- Getting a scummy vibe of some key odd posts (call for double voter to lynch 2 players, stating they will be nightkilled). Had an early kind of town read on brothers and the brothers / subcom back and forth is a little hard to gauge.

I'm curious how you can construe wanting to lynch the two scummiest players as "odd". I sort of got the impression that was the point of a Double-Voter who can split is vote. It seems pretty useless to me otherwise. As for stating I wouldbe night killed, that's not completely accurate, but I'm sure you were probably just being brief. I simply stated the possibility that I would be killed, based on the current state of the game.

Frog

- also seeming scummy, but discounting some due to playstyle. I guess my frustration here is that they should have been lynched after they claimed a non PR at deadline. The fact that the wagon changed SO quickly onto bub has the feeling that he is mafia and mafia (subcom) took an opportunity to quicklynch someone else. HL says they are fine with frog getting hammered, then takes first chance to vote someone else.

We weren't at the deadline anymore, so there was no reason to go for the most convenient lynch. I also, seem to recall wanting to lynch both of them, so the point where I was trying to change wagons to save my partner doesn't really hold up. And actually, that wasn't the first chance to vote someone else. Jackal presented the first chance for that by trying to jump in on a quick-hammer, which he has a really bad fucking habit of doing apparently. He could honestly end up being a hindrance to the town with the extra vote, so that means now we have to keep any wagon that he isn't on at L-3.

smear

Only 1 game on site. fake claiming vig? nah. Case against him would need to be solid. Yesterday's case against him was kind of weak.

He's got an Epic Mafia background though, so a fake claim isn't out of the question. And he could just get a grasp of the game very quickly. I don't generally like dismissing someone based on lack of experience.

Guy_named_riggs

gets my newbtown read for the day. I don't know why players (Frog/sub/benoni/BB) jumped on him. Sure he hasn't been the best scumhunter, but nothing he did screams 'scum' and his play matches his completed newbie game. Look how he actually believes the dayvig non-claim from DTM and then rationalizes he must be scum because the person didn't lie so the claim was fake. Is newb-mafia making that post? No. If they believed the dayvig claim, they would do their best to not annoy them by voting them and getting attention.

See above comment regarding experience.

[Hikari Link]

@HL

Not going to quote battle, but will give answers to your key points:

1. I don't see the point in mentioning a player I have no read on. You have a frame of reference if I mention them later and say scummy, you can go back and see I had no read on them earlier. Not sure why you are asking me to add filler. To me it seems like you are maybe asking directly about benoni, or you didn't see that my non-reads are just 2 inactive players and benoni. I guess I can go ahead and indulge that request (maybe next time ask me directly - what do you think about benoni?). I have some issues with their style, but haven't seen much solid content I can wrap any thoughts around. Only instance in my head that sticks out is at one point they were questioned about why they weren't voting a player, then they voted them (think it was on brothers). I made a note that I didn't like that post (#106).

Actually, no, I didn't see who they were and had no idea benoni was your only null due to not being able to get a fix on him. Since I haven't reread the game yet and t has been so long, I don't really remember what the player list looks like right now. The reason I asked was two-fold. First, it's to see where your head is now. I like to have regular reads from everyone so I can see how their game progresses to see if it seems like a natural progression or if it just contrived. Second, if there is something that seems off to you, even if it is relatively small, it could still be worthwhile to bring it up to the town, in case they have noticed other things about the person too that you may have missed or so they now have information that they may have missed and so they can make a more informed decision.

2. I understand the whole end of the day was a mess and I wasn't in the flow of the game. The double lynch thing irked me. Even if I think 2 people are scummy, I would prefer to lynch one, re-evaluate, then lynch the other. Killing both at the same time would require 100% confidence both were scum. The frog thing was just weird. Everybody seemed to think he was scum. He claimed blue. Bub made a comment about thinking he towntold post lynch (even though lynched hadn't gone through) and the speed at which people dropped off frog and jumped on bub seemed really off. Again, I have the advantage of knowing he was town while reading, but I didn't see anything that would have made me consider him a top suspect.

I don't need 100% confidence two people are scum to lynch them both. The way I see it, its a way to increase the likelihood that they are scum. If they are a heavy scum read and I think that they are likely to get lynched later in the game anyway, I think it's better to kill them both at the same time, because even if they are both mislynches, at least we don't also have an extra day wasted and a night kill in the middle, so in a way, it balances out.

3. Yes Smear has EM experience, as do I. Even on EM, vig is a bad claim. Also, setups are open there and when you fake claim there are direct motives there. You expect a cc and often you claim a role like cop or doc if you are fishing for roles.

But there are direct motives here too, in this case not being lynched. I'd honestly call Vig a pretty solid claim for scum. More than Cop, definitely. For one thing, I think that if the set up isn't open, a Vig is more unlikely to be counter-claimed. Also, they can proceed to use the Roleblocked excuse from that point forward or the excuse that they hit the same person as Mafia. On top of that, they can use the excuse that Mafia aren't Nigh killing them later in the game even after the Roleblocker dies (if one even exists) by claiming that Mafia might want them to mess up and take out town. And the worst part is, it could all be true. An early Vig claim from town is extremely bad for the player, but extremely useful for a scum player.

4. I don't dismiss inexperience, but I think I am getting a better feel for reading new players and I get a very new town sense from riggs. The biggest flaw I see is they give players town reads just for posting lists that seem like they have content in them.

But scum can imitate that type of feel. All it takes is that right type of player. I've said from the moment that I started playing Mafia that my strategy as scum would be to play the game exactly as if I were town so that no contradictions or strange motivations appear in my play. I think that if anything, newer players can be more dangerous as scum, because if they are playing with this sentiment, it's harder to catch and there is no meta to look back on for them to see that.

5. As for your vig assumptions, I already backed off that in my follow up post. I have moved it to the null box.

I realize that you did, but that does not mean that everyone else saw the reasoning there.

[Hikari Link]

As a side note, those players stating they will reread need to do so. It wasn't that hard of a read, though I don't run over every post with a fine tooth comb. If you already read it once, it should be easy to refresh your memory and start expressing some opinions. More important is that we get a new active discussion going.

I actually find rereading to be much harder. It's kind of boring when you already sort of know what happened, particularly when your mind remembers having read stuff. And this game is even worse, because the replacements sort of start to run together. I'll still get the reread done for the end of the weekend though.

To jump start it, tell me who you had your vote on to end the day and why you voted them. Do you feel the same about them now after two town players have been revealed? Do you feel Bub was lynched because mafia pushed that way or did town turn on him and mafia just quietly sheeped along?

My vote was on Bub, so obviously I don't feel the same way about him, but I do feel that given the situation over again, I'd probably be similarly suspicious. The strength of his town reads in relation to the strength of his cases that they were town was disproportionate in my book. You're question for me really comes down to whether or not I think CooLDoG is scum or if I think that they quietly sheeped the wagon. This is the main thing I plan to look at in my reread. I've already expressed suspicion of CooLDoG, but I also want to see how everybody else who jumped on the wagon looks.

[Hikari Link]

Link,
I have to agree with the reread thing. It gets boring going back through it.

@MOD IS THE PLAYER LIST UP TO DATE?

I'm going to wait to reanalyze till i get the player list

I wouldn't wait. You should do it while you have free time, since the player list isn't going to change what has already happened and also because it's impossible to tell if everyone is going to return anyway. We shouldn't waste time getting discussion rolling.

[Hikari Link]

Okay then..
We assume 3 scum
which equates to
3 scum and 8 townies
...and only 3 people are actively playing right now...
not cool

I think it is safe to assume RandomActs, BBmolla, and CooLDoG are still in this thing and will be at least partially active. That gives us 6 players.

[Hikari Link]

player list is up to date.
sorry yes it is 6 to lynch

And what about Jackal? Did he say he'd be staying in the game?

[Hikari Link]

@Mod

: ^ See above post.

[Hikari Link]

@Jackal: Why did you hammer before we could get a claim from Bub? What if he had been Cop?

[Hikari Link]

1.) It doesn't Like I said, set up peculation

2.) Don't know

3.) clear? none. Although, I think that link, smear, and you are town. But not clear town reads.

1. So why ask me specifically? For the record, my stance is don't worry about the SK until all of the Mafia are dead and given a choice between letting an SK and letting Mafia win as a townie, I'd chose SK 100% of the time (unless the SK is a dick) because I prefer an underdog.

I'm not going to sit back and wait, but I'm also not jumping right into it. I would prefer to wait till people actually posted before I continue.

Don't. There's absolutely no reason for that. There is already 20 pages of content in this game and we need to get it moving again. You can't just sit back with that mentality if you hope to have any chance of winning.

!vote abandon game

I see where you are coming from here, but I'm going to have to disagree. Maybe I'm just not a quitter, but I think this game is completely salvageable.We've shit something of a speed bump, but it can turn around once we start getting activity again. I'm personally going to be rereading and posting before I go to bed today and I'd encourage others to do the same as time permits.

[Hikari Link]

Rereading right now.

@Mod

: It occurs to me that you didn't send PMs when the Day started up again. That might help to get some of the stragglers back.

[Hikari Link]

Going to bed. I'll finish my reread tomorrow.

[Hikari Link]

Reread complete. That was actually extremely eye-opening for me and I'm quite surprised. I'll go down the line with my new reads now.

BBmolla

: Scum. HowardRoark's case was really good. Looking back on his votes, they definitely seem suspect to me. Truth be told, I think all of his votes have been on town in addition to him just wagon-hopping.

benoni

: Town. My reread doesn't change things much. His early game softball with my predecessor before finally laying into him hard reads to me as him trying to be lenient with with a new player, before finally losing his patience with all of his waffling about. Posts like this and this also really do it for me, because its the same type of logic I use, sound and cautious. And again I point to the Smear case. At this juncture, I believe Smear is town, but the logic presented there still stands as solid.

bionicchop2/DTMaster

: Town. DTMaster was nearly useless as far as I'm concerned, but bionicchop has been of far more use. He's asking legitimate questions of me, as opposed to how Mafia are more likely to tunnel and twist words. He legitimately seems like he's trying to get to the bottom of things.

CooLDoG/Subcomfreak

: Scum-lean. He's been on my slot almost all game for some half-assed reasons. In addition, he's been doing little but coasting on the "found scum team, gg" thing since yesterday. One of his 4 suspects has flipped town, another is a claimed PR, the third I know to be town, and the fourth I currently suspect to be town. Seems to me he was trying to set up multiple lynches he could use to coast through the game on so that he wouldn't have to fake scumhunt anymore. I'm willing to admit that there may be some bias against him because he's attacking me, but I don't think so, because it's more the manner he's doing it in than anything else. In particular yesterday with the Doctor, I felt it was an attempt to twist the situation against me rather than actually trying to call what I did scummy, particularly since there was nothing about it that was scummy. I also don't like his obsession with Jackal's claim. It was a dumb claim, I admit, but what's done is done and his harping on it and making threats against Jackal because of it reads to me as trying to get a mislynch on a PR.

Frogsterking

: Town-lean. Sad to say I think I was wrong about this guy, but on the reread, there were a couple of things that really stuck out to me. Posts like these are actually not bad and he was one of the first to pick up on BBmolla being shady and in his own way, he has been trying to push on GNR for a while now, though not very successfully. I was so focused on his bad logic being scummy that I didn't stop to think that he could just have bad logic without being scum. I mean, if he really was scum, he had every chance to jump on the Bub wagon too, but he constantly supported Bub. Plain and simple, I was wrong about him.

Guy_Named_Riggs

: Scum-lean. I get the idea that he is feigning ignorance at some points. To date, he has asked what a miller is, how many mafia there re, and he put forward that DTMaster might be a Day Vig in the same post that he voted him. The third thing is the part that has me most suspicious. Why even mention it when he is obviously not the Day Vig at that point and furthermore, it is slightly suspect to me that he knows what a DAy Vig is, but not a Miller. It's not a huge thing, but it is nonetheless something that doesn't sit well with me. Aside from that, just wanting to sort of hang back until discussion starts up again is kind of null. It could be newb-town motivated or scum motivated. Either way, we need

EVERYBODY

to contribute as much as possible.

Jackal711/Nikanor

: Town. I don't think that he's a scum PR and his claim is obviously true. He could end up being useful, because as log as he is alive, MyLo will be delayed. I look forward to seeing more activity from him, as near-confirmed town.

HowardRoark/Mega

: Town-lean. I honestly didn't even know his slot existed for like the first half of the game and he didn't get into it until near the end of Day 1, so there isn't a lot to go on, but what he does have so far looks really good to me. He came into the game pushing people with personalized questions for every person, which seems like genuine scumhunting instead of cookie cutter scumhunting you see from lazy town and scum. Also, his concise and logical BBmolla case seems like legitimate scumhunting.

RandomActs/Lobstermania

: Null-scum. Still remains mostly null, but there is a tinge of scuminess there in that he jumped on the Bub wagon, which was town, almost right off the bat, which could have been an attempt at a mislynch as much as it could be actual suspicion. He also expressed suspicion of benoni for what I feel are poorly-defined reasons. I'd like to see an elaboration of that.

Smear

: Town-lean. I believe his claim and I have a theory about last night. I feel like an idiot for missing it, since it was so completely obvious, but I'd be unsurprised if there had been a Doc save last night. I hadn't even considered the Doctor when this Day began for some reason. It makes more sense to me than scum deciding that Lowell was a bigger threat than either claimed PR. Of course, I'm sure we'll hear from him and he can clear it up and if there is a Doc out there, he probably knows too, but he shouldn't claim. That said, this read is dependent on Smear confirming that he is Vig, which shouldn't be too hard now. If my theory is correct, then there almost assuredly isn't a Roleblocker, which means that we should be seeing two kills tomorrow night and a Doc visit wouldn't be misplaced on Smear. Of course, if there is not confirmation that he is the Vig and he plays scummy, then it means we've got an elaborate scum ploy going on here.

VOTE: BBmolla

Let's get some conversation going now.

@Everyone

: I've already said this, but I'll reiterate,

POST YOUR READS

. It will jump-start discussion, give us a nice solid basis for reading you for the rest of the game, and help determine where we all stand right now.

[Hikari Link]

Guy_Named_Riggs

: Scum-lean. I get the idea that he is feigning ignorance at some points. To date, he has asked what a miller is, how many mafia there re, and he put forward that DTMaster might be a Day Vig in the same post that he voted him. The third thing is the part that has me most suspicious. Why even mention it when he is obviously not the Day Vig at that point and furthermore, it is slightly suspect to me that he knows what a DAy Vig is, but not a Miller. It's not a huge thing, but it is nonetheless something that doesn't sit well with me. Aside from that, just wanting to sort of hang back until discussion starts up again is kind of null. It could be newb-town motivated or scum motivated. Either way, we need

EVERYBODY

to contribute as much as possible.

This was one of my first games of mafia that I joined outside the newbie queue (I actually think it was the first). I had asked those questions about the roles because I honestly didn't know them. I came to this site not knowing pretty much anything about the game (except it involved town lynchin scum). Also, I will still be here, but I am waiting on my reads till discussion starts back up.

You seemed to know what a Day Vig was, which is arguably a less likely role for you to know about than a Miller.

Day 1 was a mess. I'd rather wait for fresh info as oppossed to a hot mess of info

So that's 20 pages of content that you are just going to ignore? No, that's not really acceptable in my book. Your level of content has already been extremely substandard up to this point. You can always revise your reads as more content is added, as you should, but messy or not, there is plenty in those pages to get some solid reads out of.

Oh lol this wagon on me. I'll comment on it tomorrow, I'll be fully rereading then.

Frogsterking

: Town-lean. Sad to say I think I was wrong about this guy, but on the reread, there were a couple of things that really stuck out to me. Posts like these are actually not bad and he was one of the first to pick up on BBmolla being shady and in his own way, he has been trying to push on GNR for a while now, though not very successfully. I was so focused on his bad logic being scummy that I didn't stop to think that he could just have bad logic without being scum. I mean, if he really was scum, he had every chance to jump on the Bub wagon too, but he constantly supported Bub. Plain and simple, I was wrong about him.

Guy_Named_Riggs

: Scum-lean. I get the idea that he is feigning ignorance at some points. To date, he has asked what a miller is, how many mafia there re, and he put forward that DTMaster might be a Day Vig in the same post that he voted him. The third thing is the part that has me most suspicious. Why even mention it when he is obviously not the Day Vig at that point and furthermore, it is slightly suspect to me that he knows what a DAy Vig is, but not a Miller. It's not a huge thing, but it is nonetheless something that doesn't sit well with me. Aside from that, just wanting to sort of hang back until discussion starts up again is kind of null. It could be newb-town motivated or scum motivated. Either way, we need

EVERYBODY

to contribute as much as possible.

These two reads are terrible. How can you have town on Frogster while having scum on GNR? Makes NO sense. At all.

Makes a good deal of sense, actually. Frogster has had moments of insight and while his play is at times questionable, it's not honestly that bad. GNR, on the other hand, has delivered less than acceptable levels of content and is now basically refusing to add more. Interesting that you decide to comment specifically on those and ignore the cases against you. Trying to act nonchalant? I suppose your comment will be tomorrow though, so it's not a big deal, I just found it interesting that you had time to object to my reads on two people whose alignments you should have no way of discerning, but you can't be bothered to defend yourself. And maybe next time instead of just calling the reads bad, you can explain why you think they are bad, okay?

[Hikari Link]

Back in the groove here. Hoping others join in too.

Haven't been able to do a full re-read, but I did do an iso on Lowell. Not much to go on, I'm afraid. Besides bub, he had a vote on on frog for awhile. But he wasn't pushing very hard on any one person. I don't think this NK will tell us much.

I'm somewhat bemused by Link's confidence in his game play. I don't know him so I'm hoping he'll prove himself worthy of the bravado. But I do have a question for you like (which I'll admit is a bit of tweek, but not entirely): Assuming your superior scum-catching ability, why do you think Lowell was the NK and not you? Just asking.

I believe Lowell to be Smear's target, actually.

I'm somewhat bemused by Link's confidence in his game play. I don't know him so I'm hoping he'll prove himself worthy of the bravado. But I do have a question for you like (which I'll admit is a bit of tweek, but not entirely): Assuming your superior scum-catching ability, why do you think Lowell was the NK and not you? Just asking.

I am on and bored, so here is my thought. making no assumptions about Link's skills as a player, mafia tend to target somebody they don't think will be protected, but didn't have too much suspicion on them. Once a protective role shows up dead or they feel they can sneak it in, they off the stronger player.

I can agree to that, but as an addendum, I will say that I believe scum also take out people that they feel are going to be difficult to mislynch but that are also not likely to be protected.

I also seem to recall I was going to look at some sort of associative tells somewhere,but then I forgot to. I'll do that tonight if I recall what t was (I believe that it was in a recent post).

[Hikari Link]

Why is a dayvig less likely a role I would know next to a miller exactly?

Well I honestly don't think either is a particularly common thing, but the Day modifier strikes me as fairly uncommon, while I'd gauge the Miller and the Vig as more or less equally common roles in terms of discussion. It's only a minor thing and it is in fact quite possible that you knew what a Day Vig was but not a Miller, it just seems like a far more unlikely scenario to me. Mind telling me where you heard of a Day Vig before? If it is an ongoing game, then that isn't necessary.

Attempting to analyze the NK choice can become a WIFOM disaster. (I'm just saying.)

Attempting to analyze the night kill can become a WIFOM disaster. Luckily, that's not a problem here. You obviously aren't going to let it spiral out of control and I can assure you, neither am I. Smear will come in, clear things up, and tomorrow night will give us a chance to confirm or deny his story, so some minor discussion of the topic isn't going to hurt anybody. In fact, considering how little conversation is going on in general, it might even help.

We really need to hear from Smear, including a response to my question in 439.

The way things are looking, we might need to hear from his replacement. But hopefully Cojin will send out some PMs.

@Guy_Named_Riggs: I want quality content

NOW

!! Give me the name of at least one of your scum suspects with some solid reasoning.

Just one seems a little light, really. How about a minimum of 3 reads, 1 scum minimum, all with solid reasoning? And they can't just be a regurgitation of reads from someone else, there must be at least 1 new piece of content. Sound fair to everyone?

[Hikari Link]

Sheeping the Bub wagon vs. scum lead! That's what it was. Okay, I'll go back and look through at some point today.

[Hikari Link]

Okay, finished rereading a bit.

Frogster is still scum, GNR is still town.

Nice singling out just them out. Where are your defined reads? I believe I asked for some from everybody.

This wagon on me still sucks. How come I went from "townish" to "OMG SCUM"? Something seems off.

Because your voting patterns smell something fierce.

In regard to my day one play, to be honest I just wanted to the game to get a move on. I only threw my vote down when I saw wagons I was okay with.

So you decided to sheep rather than scumhunt? It's not like the Day was so long that it was growing unwieldy and needed to be cut short.

Link's read on me flipped a 180, which makes no sense based off of Howard's few little sentences.

Yes. Yes it did. Not surprising since I wasn't paying attention to voting patterns. Lack of frequent vote counts make that difficult. And those were some pretty good sentences. You care to rebuttal?

And then bionic jumps on when looking at his post it would appear I was his weakest scumread.

Which was a list that he made before HowardRoark's case against you. Convenient that you left that portion out.

Get off me, your wagon is silly.

Find us some more likely scum.

VOTE: Frogster

What a surprise that Frogster is lurking...

Did you honestly just accuse him of lurking when he hasn't even been online since before the Day ended? Do your homework next time.

[Hikari Link]

prods will happen eather tommorow or friday.

What about PM reminders that the game has resumed? Have they gone out for people that aren't subscribed to the thread?

[Hikari Link]

Time for some Bub wagon analysis.

So we've got 7 people who voted for him:

Me
Jackal
BBmolla
CooLDoG
RandomActs
Lowell
GNR

Jackal

: PR, probably town.

BBmolla

: Early reads list him as iffy. Minimal interaction after that point. Vote, which comes in as the wagon is picking up steam, completely sheeps/parrots/(insert copycat animal here)s other cases. Later states he "wanted the game to move on" and he "threw his vote down on a wagon he was okay with", which is interesting, considering he had to jump

off

the Frogster wagon, which he is quite clearly deeply in love with and still actually had stronger numbers than the Bub wagon. And it certainly isn't the reason he gave at the time.

CooLDoG

: First votes Bub asking for fleshed out reads, which I suppose was supposed to be a pressure vote. He shows to be convinced Bub is scum and keeps Bub on his "definitely scum gg guys" list, which he first posted the when I had just replaced in and the entirety of his interaction with him during that period was repeating demands to "flesh out your reads". He later criticizes Bub for not scumhunting or proactively townhunting. After the Bub wagon begins, he just continues with the chants of "Vote Bub", "scum caught gg", and his tunneling on mme. He leaves all of the heavy lifting on the Bub case to me and points to me as bussing Bub (sorry, no nice links this time, but if I had to find all instances, it would take forever, so just ISO him during that period). In essence, he let me set up the Bub lynch, but also kept hammering away so that I would be next up. And of course, he can't be to blame when Bub flips town, after all, it was my case. Talk about having your cake and eating it too.

RandomActs

: Had expressed interest in the Bub wagon early on. As a result of the lynch, never had to post much content Day 1.Used the classic "Day needs to end" excuse, which for the record, I'm not a fan of. A Day shouldn't be dragged out, but at the same time, it shouldn't be rushed either. There's no need to rush when enough interest has been generated to hammer. I feel if anything, that's the most crucial time to talk things out, so that we can get a grasp on why everybody is on the wagon.

Lowell

: Town.

GNR

: "Day needs to end". Never once actually expresses any opinion one way or the other on the case against Bub. In fact, his only mention of Bub is in his early reads list as town.

The two key things I took away from this are that BBmolla is sloppy as shit and that CooLDoG is a magnificent bastard. These two are definitely my picks for scum on this wagon. GNR has shades of scum in him from this, but nothing to the degree of the others.

So you decided to sheep rather than scumhunt? It's not like the Day was so long that it was growing unwieldy and needed to be cut short.

Literally half the playerlist was afk. If we even wanted to lynch we'd have to all agree, not just some.

Untrue statement is a fucking lie. Literally within the approximately 48 hour period of time that your post falls in the middle of, we have posts from 10 of the 13 players.

Bionic didn't jump on until after two votes. He expressed his weak scumread on me before and didn't vote me. Why the change? Oh, right, bandwagon, got it.

Well, there was also that compelling case that you once again conveniently leave out.

Once again, Frogster is scum, how many times do I have to say it?

You just keep saying that, but you aren't really telling us why.

[Hikari Link]

UNVOTE: BBmolla

If there were a psychiatrist and a Serial Killer and they both used their powers at Night, would the Serial Killer kill fail?

@Mod:

Please don't answer the above question yet. It is for my own reference so that I can ask you only AFTER we've heard from Smear.

@

BBmolla

: You get a brief reprieve, but you had still better post those reads and you had best believe I'm watching you.

@

Smear

: Are you actually a Serial Killer who was converted last Night and who, if anyone, did you target?

@

Jackal

: Reads, please.

@

GNR

: I assigned you with the task of at least 3 defined reads from you, at least 1 of them being a scum read. This is only a temporary measure to get activity from you rolling and there will be requests for further reads in the future. How soon can we expect what has been requested?

Interesting Fact

: Psychiatrist is a real role, but it is not classified by the wiki as either normal or non-normal. It is noted as arguably being more likely to be in a game without an SK.

[Hikari Link]

I don't know what to tell you. The setup was xylbot generated, so maybe Cojin didn't look up whether Psychiatrist was normal?

Again, I've said that you have a brief reprieve. Explain to me now why we shouldn't lynch you. You're behavior has been scummy as shit and you've done nothing to prove that you are town beyond claim.

@

bionicchop

: Worth noting that a normal game can have one non-normal role. Still, I agree he should probably be lynched, but we've still got people who haven't put in activity today and questions that need answering, so let's agree that he will in all likelihood be lynched and continue with the necessary discussion. No need to rush to the lynch.

Also

FoS Link

. You strike me as more thorough and I would have expected you to uncover those, but you just glazed it and didn't dig deep enough.

This may come as a shock to you, but as it turns out, I'm not infallible. I look at a lst, see the role is not explicitly named as normal or non-normal and that the page regarding the role is not listed as such either, and I move on.

[Hikari Link]

Hm.

Maybe there is no SK, and because of that is was okay'd?

Yeah if I'm not a legal role that's pretty bogus. Go ahead and lynch me I guess, doesn't seem like I'm very useful anyway.

Oh, you just love to do this, don't you?

[Hikari Link]

Link - There can be a variant, but it has to follow this:

New/variant roles may be included in limited number (no more than 1 in a Mini, 2 in a Large), and should be based on the usual role mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Blocking, Voting, Enabling and Communication.

Good to know for future reference. I usually look at the list of roles and figure if it isn't on the list, it's legal as long as it is approved as balanced.

Also

FoS Link

. You strike me as more thorough and I would have expected you to uncover those, but you just glazed it and didn't dig deep enough.

This may come as a shock to you, but as it turns out, I'm not infallible. I look at a lst, see the role is not explicitly named as normal or non-normal and that the page regarding the role is not listed as such either, and I move on.

Only an FoS currently. You have been active and hunting, but those are only signs of a strong player, not necessarily town. You were early to vote BB, so you get some town points for that anyway until I decide a bus happened.

Only an FoS or not, I'm still going to respond to any suspicion. Better to get on top of such things before they spiral out of control.

Yes, though I think I know what you're going to say...

Before day ends Riggs needs to explain this.

Agreed. I have my own theory on what he thought and why, but I might as well let him go first.

[Hikari Link]

I have a counter-theory to whatever you are thinking

I don't know if it would be a counter-theory, but we'll see. It's too bad, by the way, that you went and let out that BBmolla's claim couldn't be, because if GNR had said that he had a feeling it was going to be Psychiatrist, we could've gotten two scum for the price of one once you let the cat out of the bag.

[Hikari Link]

Yes, though I think I know what you're going to say...

Before day ends Riggs needs to explain this.

I thought he was going to claim VT. I figured, if BB was scum, he would claim VT. Most scum claim that.
or, he would have claimed someother power role like cop or jailkeep or something, hoping to out the real power role.

It seems to me like people who ask "should I claim now?" are more likely to claim PR. It's like they want to hold off the claim and give people a chance to back out before they have to reveal their role. What I had you pegged for was thinking he would claim Cop though. Since he asked early on what everyone's Cop claiming policy was, I thought you might think he was a Cop trying to throw scum off of his scent or something. Looks like your response was more boring.

I'll ask again, how long do you think it will take you for those reads

? You can't just sit here forever ignoring the request. All town needs to pitch in here. By the way, BBmolla is officially off the table for those reads. I want a scum readother than BBmolla and two other reads, who can be either scum or town reads.

[Hikari Link]

It's too bad, by the way, that you went and let out that BBmolla's claim couldn't be, because if GNR had said that he had a feeling it was going to be Psychiatrist, we could've gotten two scum for the price of one once you let the cat out of the bag.

Meh. I don't get greedy

I wouldn't call it greedy, so much as a solid tactical move, granted, I probably wouldn't have thought of it either, considering I only thought of it after the fact when you showed that it isn't a normal role.

Oh and Link - if you protect me tonight, I will protect you, OK?

winky face; wifom nod; giggles.

Getting a bit friendly there, are we? Be warned, buddying won't work on me (probably), so don't bother. The only way I'd protect you is if I thought you were a PR or if I felt you were the most useful person to the town. I'm the most useful guy in town, by the way, if you are listening out there, Doc, but we might have a Vig to protect and there s still the matter of the Double Voter.

I was going to lynch BB but if he were scum why wouldn't he claim a real role that's not stupid

Less likely to be met with a counter-claim and the role is virtually useless, so there's no way to test it unless a Serial Killer comes forward. Also, he gets to prey on our fears of an SK. Too bad for him that I'd hand an SK the victory over the Mafia any day of the week. Good to see that you are back, now please get to work on a reread, if you need it, and post your current reads. You can't lynch him anyway, on account of me unvoting. Also, we have a lot to do before we end this Day.

VOTE: CooLDoG in the meantime.

[Hikari Link]

So now we are only missing benoni and Smear. Not too shabby, actually. Anyone else up for a nice CooLDoG wagon?

[Hikari Link]

@BBmolla: That claim buys you no sympathy from me.

@Guy_Named_Riggs: Honestly . . . are you not reading the thread?!?!?!? Bub is dead (569) and it's already very clear that Smear needs to report (570).

@Hikari Link: Can I answer your role action question from my understanding?

I'd rather you didn't. On the off chance something zany is going on here, I want to hear Smear's answer to see how it lines up with Cojin's.

Link - I don't see the point in a counterwagon. I am all for additional scumhunting if you want to keep the day going, but voting elsewhere doesn't sit right with me. BB is pretty much confirmed mafia for fakeclaiming, so I am not lynching anybody else. There are rare instances in an open setup if I could determine which mafia role a player had then I would hunt for a more dangerous mafia role and save the safe bet for a later day, but today the lynch has to be BB.

The thing is, I don't tke kindly to people who openly lie to me. He needs some pressure on him. It's not like the wagon is likely to go anywhere unless we can confirm him as scum just as muich as BBmolla is confirmed, but if it does happen, then so much the better for us.

[Hikari Link]

I guess my point is that votes don't apply any pressure if there is no danger of a lynch off those votes. It is basically an FoS at this point.

Oh, he's in clear and present danger.

Could you identify the lie for me? Sorry if you already made it clear.

This is the post I take issue with:

I'm posting this in all my games...

v/la Friday

Yet, he still has the time to post in other threads. I'll let you make of that what you will.

I'm probably gonna be gone for most of the day, but I'll try to phone post if important things happen.

[Hikari Link]

Vote BBMolla

The claim is bogus. Totally. End of story.

Hope that's not the hammer.

FoS: RandomActs

There's no reason to do that when there is still so much to do. We need unvotes.

[Hikari Link]

I actually would prefer to end the day sooner than later and progress the game. It might help with getting replacements.

Disagree. Prods are to be sent Friday, meaning that the earliest we'd be seeing replacements is Sunday, long after the next Day begins. We're far better waiting until the two unresponsive have officially been removed from the game so that the mod can look for players during the Night Phase. Also, we could still stand to see GNR reads and see what kind of excuses CooLDoG will try.

Don't expect the greatest amount of activity from me for a while. I just got home with Skyrim.

[Hikari Link]

Lynch him.

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Normal

Mechanics which are explicitly Non-Normal include:

Those affecting a role's alignment (no Cults)

When I read his claim, I knew it was 100% fake. I'm actually in review now. they would never let that through.

vote:bbmolia

no fake claim does not deserve a lynch.

Link - There can be a variant, but it has to follow this:

New/variant roles may be included in limited number (no more than 1 in a Mini, 2 in a Large), and should be based on the usual role mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Blocking, Voting, Enabling and Communication.

Nope, they still can't change alignment. Keep in mind that the don'ts out way the dos.

Yeah, I did post in other games. DO you know why? BEcause this game A) kinda sucks, B) my other game was in a very very critical point, C) if I posted v/la in my 3rd game people would think I was scum, 4) I didn't post anything on this site in early afternoon to late evening. 5) "you guys are so boring to play with, I'm going to go post in f62" -unknown.

Not buying it. There was no reason to lie based on the information you just provided. The fact that you took a break from this game isn't the scummy part, it's the fact that you lied about why you couldn't post. Also hammering while we still need a potential Vig is shifty to me.

FoS: CooLDoG

@Doctor

: I'm not even going to be subtle about it this time. If you exist and BBmolla flips scum, I'd like protection tonight. Yes, I'm aware there are two claimed PRs, but frankly, I'd say I'm more useful than both of them put together. Of course, even if you're real, you may not listen to this, in which case protect the Vig slot. Unless ofcourse, BBmolla somehow magically flips Psychiatrist, in which case the Double Voter is the safer protect. Again, that's only if you refuse to protect me.

@Vig

: Shoot CooLDoG tonight if you get the chance.

@Cop

: A check on bionicchop, CooLDoG, or myself wouldn't be misplaced tonight.

@Town

: Should I die tonight because the Doc refuses my request or just because I don't exist, I'd say lynch CooLDoG and pressure the other people on my list. Don't count anyone as confirmed town though, I've had a town lose after I was dead for some dumb shit like that in a Hydra game. And don't be afraid to deviate from the list, just make sure you pressure the people I have listed the hardest. And don't trust bionic just because he seems protown as hell. That's not saying lynch him, but keep in mind he isn't above scrutiny and neither am I, should I live.

@Scum

: The Doctor doesn't even have to listen to me, so have some WIFOM. Take the shot at me, I dare you. Or do you think that you can come at me from another angle and mislynch me? Good luck with that. I've never been lynched (I'd say as town, but as I've never played as scum, then that's kind of moot) before and whoever the scum team is here, I can pretty much guarantee that it ain't gonna start with you. So if you know what's good for you, you'll take the shot now and pray that you take me out tonight while the Doc still has potential PRs to protect.

Time for some indignant shouts from people because I'm directing PRs. How many shits do you think I give what you think? The answer may not surprise you. PRs are important, but they need direction to operate at full efficiency, I believe.

[Hikari Link]

@Mod: Any replacements?

From the player list, it looks like Redff has replaced benoni. Is that correct and are there any others?

@Mod:

See above question. What of Smear? Did he respond to prodding and is he being replaced? He's clearly active on this site, so did he respond at all?

!vote Guy_Named_Riggs

Would you care to explain this vote? Also, reads.

Actually, a cop on me would be great, do you know why? Because it would prove that the brothers slot is so fucking scummy for directing power roles and for being wrong about a townie.

1. I'd appreciate if you'd stop calling me "the brothers slot". I've been here longer, posted more, and the majority of your case against me now would seem to be against mysef rather than brothers, which I assume is due to your case against him being weak.

2. Directing power roes is not only not scummy, I believe it is extremely pro-town. And considering that's been my stance on the subject since I started playing on this site. Check my past games, if you want. I can even provide links if necessary. That's simply the way I play the game and if that is one of the key points of your case against me, then you are clearly grasping at straws.

3. What exactly does "being wrong about a townie" mean? Surely you can't be referring to the Bub wagon. You were on that wagon too. Technically before even me. And there were a lot of others who apparently felt he was fairly scummy. The only difference is that I did almost all of the casework and you just kind of egged me on while at the same time attacking me. And if you aren't talking about Bub, then I have no idea what you are talking about, since he's the only townie I can recall being wrong about so far. Also, when did being wrong become a scumtell? That's not even a legitimate point.

Also, I DID NOT HAVE TIME TO POST IN 3 GAMES. Specifically when I needed to catch up in this one. AND I DID HAVE SOMETHING GOING. So I sacrificed this one for the better of my RL and the other two games. Deal with it.

No, I'm afraid I can't deal with it. If you had given it to us straight, there would be no problem at all. But instead you just blatantly lied. You said that going V/LA would make you look like scum in another game? Well it certainly did the job here.

I actually don't take any issue with the fact you are directing PRs, I just think there are some flaws to your directions.

I don't typically respond to the dead, but bionic brought up some points that I didn't get the chance to respond to before the lynch. I'll openly admit that the PR plans were not my best work ever, mainly due to trying to rush everything out before the lynch. That said, there was a method to my madness.

@Doctor

: I'm not even going to be subtle about it this time. If you exist and BBmolla flips scum, I'd like protection tonight. Yes, I'm aware there are two claimed PRs, but frankly, I'd say I'm more useful than both of them put together. Of course, even if you're real, you may not listen to this, in which case protect the Vig slot. Unless ofcourse, BBmolla somehow magically flips Psychiatrist, in which case the Double Voter is the safer protect. Again, that's only if you refuse to protect me.

If you make this statement, I don't see any way I don't die tonight except for wifom reasons from mafia. You need to leave it a little open. I tried to get us both through the night by suggesting we protect each other. If neither of us are doctor, then a protective role can flip a coin between us. I feel you are the most proactive player besides me and if you are town losing you would be a hit. I feel I bring value to the game as well, so would like to be here tomorrow.

I agree that he was useful and there's actually an interseting plan that could have been used in theory if the hammer hadn't come so quickly, but he wasn't a claimed PR and I personally had no way of confirming his alignment either way and any potential Doc was already stretched too thin between me, the Vig, and the Double Voter. A fourth person would have been too much for my liking. However, this is a cautionary tale for all players as town. If you feel you might die during the night, please put out a sort of last will and your take on everything, particularly as it pertains to the impending flip.

@Vig

: Shoot CooLDoG tonight if you get the chance.

@Cop

: A check on bionicchop, CooLDoG, or myself wouldn't be misplaced tonight.

An investigation on CooLDoG would in fact be misplaced. If a cop find them guilty, it just re-affirms existing suspicion. Also, you have directed vig to kill them, so possible investigation on a dead player. If cop gets inno, then they would have to out themself to derail a wagon you are already setting up on CoolDoG. Investigating either me or you makes more sense. My new policy is not to investigate suspicious people as they will likely get lynched anyway (there are exceptions). Instead I find it best to investigate someone who I feel is strong as a player, that way I know if I can trust their reads as legit scumhunting. They also tend to be the hardest to find as scum.

First reason for that is because I felt it unlikely we'd have both a Doc and a Vig on our hands. Second reason was to make it more likely something would happen with CooLDoG. I felt since we couldn't be sure of the state of affairs with Smear, it was entirely possible there might not be a shot tonight. Third reason is because I believe that CooLDoG may be a strong player and so I am hoping that if the Cop investigated him, he won't claim if CooLDoG is scum and I have a clear shot at lynching him. On the other hand, if he should start to wriggle from my clutches, a well-timed Cop claim would be most useful. When I have scum in my sights, I like to make sure there is no escape.

@Scum

: The Doctor doesn't even have to listen to me, so have some WIFOM. Take the shot at me, I dare you. Or do you think that you can come at me from another angle and mislynch me? Good luck with that. I've never been lynched (I'd say as town, but as I've never played as scum, then that's kind of moot) before and whoever the scum team is here, I can pretty much guarantee that it ain't gonna start with you. So if you know what's good for you, you'll take the shot now and pray that you take me out tonight while the Doc still has potential PRs to protect.

I do like this flip though, so it goes in line with what I was thinking earlier in this post.

This is vintage Hikari Link. I'm all about confusing the Mafia whenever possible. Sometimes it is harder than others, but I really hit my stride in this game and so it's all coming so naturally to me right now.

@

redFF

: Hell, sir. Welcome to the game. Where are you in your read-through and how soon can we expect reads and other content from you?

@

Everyone

: Let's get some reads up in this bitch.

VOTE: CooLDoG

Show me why my vote is misplaced or it stays here.

[Hikari Link]

ill catch up this weekend

Fair enough. No rush or anything.

[Hikari Link]

@Hikari Link: Perhaps I should just respond with your vote justification. However . . . Guy_Named_Riggs needs to participate; he's just been actively lurking. So that's good enough for him to be my priority to start the day.

V/LA Friday evening through Sunday evening. (Eastern US)

He does need to participate and I realize this, but he has also claimed that he is going to and the Day has only just begun without him posting, so it seems like a weird vote.

[Hikari Link]

Everyone responded to there prods except banoi

Good enough for me.

VOTE: SMEAR

The fact that there is only one kill in a game with a vig(?) and scum.
Smear needs to get in here, and tell us who he submitted the kills on

He does need to do that, but I think we can safely assume that he is most likely scum at this point, now that we know he was aware of the game. At this point, I believe that you are probably town because I think it far more likely that CooLDoG is scum and same goes for Smear.

Those things being said, you still need to post your reads. Regardless of whether or not I think you are town, I want action from you, because I could be wrong or I could be right, but the only way I'm going to find out is from your activity.

[Hikari Link]

@Guy_Named_Riggs: That's an easy out. Give me something better.

Yeah, I pretty much already said that to him.

Y'all are not thinking of one very important question regarding Smear that I will ask when that player slot returns. That slot should not be lynched without hearing from it.

That much is obvious, but two votes is nowhere near a lynch.

Regarding RandomActs: His three votes have all been following a "who's hot and easy" trend. Day 1, Bub Bidderskins: 468, 471. Day 2, BBmolla: 596, 603. Today, Smear: 633. No real development work happening.

This statement is true. RandomActs, I want those reads and some real participation.

Regarding Hikari Link: I'm seeing a lot of buddying through "I'm gonna get you" then a relaxed attitude that's making me very uncomfortable. Sorry that I don't have the time to link-it-up as I'm heading out the door in a minute and he has a lot more posts to sift through.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. There's no buddying going on here. I'm just patient. As long as people don't do dumb shit and end the Day too quickly, I'm not in a rush with people. I know that my questions will eventually be answered and if they aren't then there will be hell to pay.

Jackal711, Frogsterking, and CooLDoG are all MIA right now; and redFF owes us a read this weekend. I want to see something current from each before I proceed with them.

I expect we'll hear from these people this weekend.

[Hikari Link]

fairly sure hikari is town, i thought brothers was town too

I figured I'd better get to this now. As my signature says, I'd ask that you not call me Hikari. For a detailed explanation, if such a thing interests you, please check my wiki page.

What do you have against me frog?

Does your signature really say that you are V/LA 7 days a week? Because that seems like a rather large problem.

[Hikari Link]

Does your signature really say that you are V/LA 7 days a week? Because that seems like a rather large problem.

It's maily only in the morning, afternoon stages of the day. I get on at nights, that's when I'm most active.

Well if you are free at nigts, then that's not V/LA, that's called life. Lots of people have work and school and it's not expected that they are free at all times of the day. But if you can get on for at least an hour or two everyday or every other day and just keep an eye on the game wile you are at home, then it's really about regular. V/LA implies you will have no access to almost no access. It's like going out of town or having your computer break, not having a life outside of he game.

[Hikari Link]

hikari

Yeah, now I feel like you're just doing it to spite me. Thanks.

you think smear is scum change ur vote plz to the obvious fakelclaiming vig, cooldog can wait til tomorrow right?

you keep calling smear scum but dont vote him, kinda weird.

Nah, it's cool. I'm going to wait until I hear his story. As it turns out, I don't like to jump the gun on things like this.

[Hikari Link]

JUMP THE GUN? THE GUYS CONFIRMED SCUM IN MY EYES, EVERYONE ELSE GETS SCUMMIER THE LONGER THEIR VOTE ISN'T ON SMEAR.

Cool story, bro. I, on the other hand, am not as quick to confirm scum. If he's got a story, I want to hear it. I've got a few ideas why it may have gotten this way, but I'd rather not say anything and hand him excuses to hide behind. You can go ahead and have all the scum reads on people not voting him, but the list is going to get pretty long at the rate things are going. It's far more pro-town to wait it out to be safe anyway and as far as I'm concerned, this is entirely your problem at this point. How about you get some real, defined reads out there instead of just coasting on "lol Smear is confirmed scum", because you're going to jump to the to of my scum list if the flip comes and he's town somehow.

Does your signature really say that you are V/LA 7 days a week? Because that seems like a rather large problem.

It's maily only in the morning, afternoon stages of the day. I get on at nights, that's when I'm most active.

Well if you are free at nigts, then that's not V/LA, that's called life. Lots of people have work and school and it's not expected that they are free at all times of the day. But if you can get on for at least an hour or two everyday or every other day and just keep an eye on the game wile you are at home, then it's really about regular. V/LA implies you will have no access to almost no access. It's like going out of town or having your computer break, not having a life outside of he game.

Ah okay I didn't think about it that way. Anyways, I fixed it now.

Yeah, that's not a big deal, I just thought it better not to confuse people by implying that you are basically never actually free to play the game. What I'm more concerned about is your lack of content. Your wagon-hopping is not helping anyone determine your alignment or actually find scum, and is in fact, harmful, so please get to work. You've been warned several times to post content, so I very much expect to see some very soon.

@RandomActs

: Ditto for you. Stop hopping wagon to wagon to get the quick lynches done so that you don't have to post actual content and get some reads and other activity out there. Just because someone may or may not be found scum doesn't mean you can vote hem exclusively and cal it a day. I expect real content.

@Town

: If you haven't voted smear yet, you are doing a good job. Keep that up until he gets back and we can hear his story. That applies for his replacement too. He'll still likely be lynched in that case, but it literally can't hurt to hear out the story, so be patient, because I'm getting fed the fuck up with how quickly this town will commit to a lynch before we can get all of the use out of a given Day.

@Jackal

: The above particularly means you. Don't just jump aboard here with two votes again. I've told you time and again that we need confirmed town to work just as hard, if not harder, because we know that they are being real with us and because every bit of perspective helps.

[Hikari Link]

What the fuck, didn't I get lynched in this game? I really thought I did....

fuck.

I never submitted any kills, I completely forgot that this game even existed and I didn't receive a single prod until I'd been inactive for a month, so of course I wouldn't. When I did, I completely forgot my role, assumed I was town, didn't send the action.

I'm sorry about this, since there is really no explanation I can give that will be either credible OR forgivable. Regardless, I AM vig.

How foolish of me to want o wait to hear his side of the story before lynching him. What was I thinking?

I am willing to answer any questions.

I've got no questions for you, only requests.

1. Reads, please.

2. Start posting from this point on.

3. Shoot someone tonight. I'm not going to say who, just try to hit scum. If there are not two night kills within the next two Nights (because one can be a fluke), then we're probably gonna have to lynch you. If scum don't take you out first.

@RandomActs

: Ditto for you. Stop hopping wagon to wagon to get the quick lynches done so that you don't have to post actual content and get some reads and other activity out there. Just because someone may or may not be found scum doesn't mean you can vote hem exclusively and cal it a day. I expect real content.

Okay, NOW you pushed one of my buttons. It is definately UNtownish to mischaracterize another player. You suggest I'm wagon hopping and it demonstratively untrue. I've cast exactly three votes in this game, and I've never unvoted once.

I'm sorry, I stated that poorly. What I meant when I said you were hopping wagon to wagon was that you'd place a vote on an existing wagon that went on to a lynch without actually ever posting anything of substance. I can assure you, the last thing I'd want to do is misrepresent anyone and I sincerely mean that.

My vote on day was not my first choice but I went along because the game desperately needed concensus to survive. As I recall, Link, you were on that wagon too.

I have no issue with where you put your votes, only with your lack of content.

Vote 2 was an obvious pick because the claim was so bogus it could not be ignored. But your vote, Link, was nowhere to be found on that lynching.

Yes, because I felt it more prudent to attempt to get all of the information possible regarding the situation and I wanted to make proper use of the Day.

Vote 3 is the second vote on Smear, and it would have been first if Riggs had not beat me to it. And once again, Link's vote is missing from this obvious choice.

And you can see where that has lead. I'm not jumping on wagons just because they seem like the correct choice. There's still the possibility for various unknowns that simply can't be accounted for. Rushing a Day when we don't need to is bad.

So despite my limited input, and despite your high opinion of your playing ability, I have to say I've been more effective than you so far.

You go ahead and think that. Your definition of effectiveness must be interesting.

When you have found more scum than I have, perhaps then I'll put greater stock in your opinions.

I wasn't aware you had found more scum than I had. But please don't feel any need to put stock in my opinions if you don't want to.

Until then, don't criticize my play, or try to slur my actions. Thank you.

I'm willing to accept that you were mad due to my own error here, but I'll still say that I will criticize you as I see fit if you are not productive. As of this point, your longest post has been this tirade, which serves no game purpose. Now focus these efforts towards actually finding scum instead of raging and we just might get somewhere.

@redFF

:I'd FOS you, redFF but I'm honestly not sure how I feel there. You definitely were pushing for that lynch hard, but if you were scum, I'm just not sure that you would be so blatant as to push for a town mislynch before we could hear town's side and not expect repercussions. And impatient town assuming you have scum caught fits the bill here just as well, if not better than scum trying to get off a quick mislynch. I just hope you takes something away from this about the value of patience.

[Hikari Link]

BULLSHIT SMEAR ENJOY THE ROPE

Okay, I retract my statement. You're either not very bright or scum and both are now equally plausible. There's no reason to lynch someone when we can easily test the claim.

FOS: redFF

[Hikari Link]

WE'VE HAD 2 DAYS TO TEST THE CLAIM, WHEN I FIND SCUM I LYNCH SCUM.

We need to be as sure as possible. Only a complete moron or scum would lynch him when it's entirely possible he's telling the truth and it's ridiculously easy to test. There's not even a Roleblocker to contend with anymore, so at this point, all we've got to worry about are Doc saves and both parties hitting the same target. It might be the case that neither of those things happen, in which case we get confirmed town and we can avoid a possible mislynch.

[Hikari Link]

meh, i still wanna lynch smear. his play is scummy as hell without the claim, he just seems like really obvious scum.

That's nice. I've seen plenty of people who have played scummy only to flip town. We're not going to jump the gun here and possibly lynch our own Vig because you can't be bothered to wait. As it turns out, even if you are right, there is still at least one more mafia member in the game. Go find them and deal with them for now. In two Days, Smear will be lynched if he can't prove himself to be town.

@Mod:

What's the status on prods/replacements and can we get a vote count? Also, you never sent out a beginning of Day PM. I believe I've mentioned this before, but those who are not subscribed to the thread may be unaware that the game is back on, so those really are crucial. Jackal and CooLDoG have not posted so far today and may be unaware the Day has started.

[Hikari Link]

You go ahead and think that. Your definition of effectiveness must be interesting.

The following, Link, is my definition of effectiveness:

WE'VE HAD 2 DAYS TO TEST THE CLAIM, WHEN I FIND SCUM I LYNCH SCUM.

That's not effectiveness, it's naked idiocy and if you can't see that, then I'm really not sure what to say to you. Can you have a list of reads within 72 hours?

@Hikari Link: You continually allow Guy_Named_Riggs to slide on providing more reads. How is this making someone pay and not buddying?

Because it's not buddying. I'm making no attempts to get closer to him or get on his good side. You see, unlike others here, I've got patience. I obviously want those things from him, but I don't see a vote being the way to go. The lack of content bothers me, but based on the activity of others in this game, I find it hard to consider it independently scummy so much as just unhelpful. But don't mistake my leniency for complacency. At this point, GNR is still #2 on my list after CooLDoG, but I'm not actually pushing for any lynches at this moment. Content is the #1 priority at this point in the game. Since your V/LA is over, can we expect reads from you soon? Maybe within the next 72 hours?

@GNR

: Same as the previous two. And what happened to the reads you claimed to be making before BBmolla was lynched. You've had ample time since then. You've even had time for partial reads lists as originally requested. Where are these things at? For you, 72 hours is a deadline and I expect content by then. There are only 9 players and from that, we have one confirmed town and yourself, so there are only 7 players you need to read. I expect at least 3 of those by the time 72 hours have passed and the rest by Saturday evening at the latest.

@Frogster

: You need to post as well. Still no reads from you and really not much posting in general. Don't assume that just because I have you listed as a town read it means you can slack off.

[Hikari Link]

I can elaborate if you want but it's not very interesting

Please elaborate.

[Hikari Link]

@Hikari Link: You keep asking for reads, allowing the excuses to pile up, and admitting that there's no real threat via a willingness to lynch (or even vote). The linked post attempts to a gain favorable perception by directly telling him you believe him to be town, and by stating a belief that Smear is "most likely scum" without a previous mention of suspicion (after wanting to wait for his return and explanation) after Guy_Named_Riggs had laid down the first vote on him.

I began to type an overview of my reads, but I'd rather not give Guy_Named_Riggs something to lazily mimic; he's lynchable. I'll give you this, we have definitely have tonight to let Smear attempt to prove his role; he's off the table IMHO.[/quote]
Fair enough. I can understand waiting for GNR so that he doesn't copy you, but can you at least draft something up so that after his reads come out, you can post something in a timely manner. Since there is abound to be some downtime between now and his post, it will get things done faster.

I can elaborate if you want but it's not very interesting

Please elaborate.

Red's last posts make him clearly Town, Smear looks like scum not taking his claim into account but taking his claim into account looks legit
He looks clearly town for trying to lynch someone you think is a PR?
Hikari push on red makes no sense as red was town telling.

It makes no sense that I would become suspicious of a person that is trying to lynch a claimed PR before we have a chance to prove his claim? He had an excuse and it's ludicrously easy to determine whether or not said excuse is true and he simply wouldn't have it. Explain how that is towntelling.

upon a reread hikari buddy with guy named riggs all game and they get the wrong people lynched together.

Being lenient is not buddying and that is a pretty strong accusation right there. We were both on exactly one wagon together that ended in a town death and he most certainly didn't have anything to do with that lynch other than his vote, because he's done nothing. That's like saying that (X person on the Bub wagon) and I get the wrong people lynched together. We've also had exactly one mislynch this game, so your argument is all the weaker.

case solved

You're a regular Sherlock fucking Holmes, you are.

@Frogsterking: See your 647. Elaborate on your reads, I don't care how uninteresting. If both Hikari Link and Guy_Named_Riggs are mafia, why change your vote?

@Hikari Link: You keep asking for reads, allowing the excuses to pile up, and admitting that there's no real threat via a willingness to lynch (or even vote). The linked post attempts to a gain favorable perception by directly telling him you believe him to be town, and by stating a belief that Smear is "most likely scum" without a previous mention of suspicion (after wanting to wait for his return and explanation) after Guy_Named_Riggs had laid down the first vote on him.


I began to type an overview of my reads, but I'd rather not give Guy_Named_Riggs something to lazily mimic; he's lynchable. I'll give you this, we have definitely have tonight to let Smear attempt to prove his role; he's off the table IMHO.

I'd rather lynch Hikari first because he looks worse and my entire case revolves around him

Your entire case is non-existent.

kk
i can see why smear is off

so
VOTE: hikari

Okay, you are either scum or far dumber than I ever gave you credit for. What about what Frogster said made any sense? "Smear's play is scummy but taking his claim into account, he doesn't look scummy?" That's ridiculous and completely counter to your entire argument that his claim was fake and that he was obviously lying. This seems like nothing more than an attempt to buddy Frog by following his lead.

VOTE: redFF

[Hikari Link]

derp

Your supreme insight is stunning.

[Hikari Link]

RandomActs: Seems town, though I want to check the ISO of who he replaced. Who was that?

Smear:Scum. Vig claim I don't buy. I just don't see how one could FORGET they have a vig role. True this game has probably become the longest mini normal game on the site, but I don't like Smear's defense on geting on and finding votes on him, so he posts

redff: more of a null. Benoi seemed scum, and I don't know about red's play here. @red, could you explain you reads on why you think those are town, and those are scum?

Link: town. I don't see any scum motivaton behind his posts. They seem like he's being the logical one here, waiting for those who have votes on them to post before voting them.

Frog: null. He has done almost nothing this entire game except post small posts that either attack someone, or making weak cases agaisnt them.

HowardRoark - town. Again, I don't see any scum motivation behind his posts.

cooldog/subcomfreak- null. Don't really know what to think after looking through the ISO. His last posts was 10 days ago, so maybe if he gets back here, I will actually be able to mmake a case agaisnt him.

My vote stays on Smear

That's an awful lot of nulls going around there and some pretty underdeveloped reads. A sentence or two isn't going to cut it. You need to explin specific things you have wrong with people and specific things you think are okay with people. And Smear is not dying today, so you can forget about it. Go back and try again, because I'm afraid this simply isn't satisfactory. It adds nothing to the game.

k the gnr hikari scumteam now has a lot more weight to it.

Please explain this "weight".

[Hikari Link]

@RandomActs: Who's your second choice and why?

The Link wagon has some appeal to me, but I'm not sure I'm being completely rational about it. His style rubs me the wrong way and I don't want that to influence my logic.
Even if he's scum, I'm not sold on the Riggs connection. I think it's more likely Link was trying to dazzle the newbie with the massive wall posts and bravado.

I was trying to dazzle him? News to me.

I'm keeping my vote on Smear for now. I'm still convinced he's our best target. I don't buy the "What? I'm still alive?" bit either. I don't see the point of testing his claim. It will only increase our chances of mislynching someone else.

Yeah, that makes so much sense. Because it's not like this could be a mislynch. I'm willing to consider it tomorrow, but it's completely off the table today. There's plenty of other options out there. refFF and CooLDoG are both great choices here, though redFF being able to respond is a plus, because we can feel him out better.

[Hikari Link]

hikari why am i scum? any reason other than not calling you link or hl?

Of course. That's not even a reason. I just consider that you being a dick. Though scum are more likely to pester town to fluster them. There was your shit hop off the Smear wagon, which seemed to be just because of some random shit that Frogster said, followed by a ridiculous jump on me for some vague "connections" to GNR, despite the fact that I was the staunchest supporter of not lynching someone that you've apparently conceded could in all likeliness be town. And your insistence to push the Smear wagon up until the point it became clear it wouldn't happen. It didn't read to me like "oh shit, I guess this guy could be town and I'd be a fool not to easily test his claim," it was more like "oh shit, I guess people aren't going to go through with this, let's sheep Frogster." You were so adamant about that lynch and that alone set off all sorts of alarms. Added to that, the ease at which you claimed to flip reads on him from what was basically a watered-down and poorly executed version of my responses don't seem like legitimate reactions.

[Hikari Link]

smear was obvscum day 1 and is obv now but all you idiots want to waste a night on trying to confirm him.

There eeems like a largew disconnect between that statement

kk
i can see why smear is off

so
VOTE: hikari

that statement

k the gnr hikari scumteam now has a lot more weight to it.

And that statement.

Unless you are suggesting a four man scum team, which seems unlikely to me, you are stating that GNR and I are scum together (which seems to be the basis of your argument against me) and that Smear is scum. And you didn't bring that up in the second quote. You said that you could see why he was off, rather than coming at the argument with any vigor as you might do if you actually believed it as much as you claim. You say there has been enough time to test his claim, but as everything in the thread checks out with his story about forgetting, then there is no reason at all you can logically say that his claim couldn't possibly be true. These things aren't adding up.

[Hikari Link]

i said it has a lot more weight to it.

thats not saying you're def scumbuddies. thats a big paragraph for a whole lot of nothing.

1. There is no weight. I asked you to explain it, rather than just say things.

2. If Smear is obviously scum, as you claim, then if by nothing else, then process of elimination would suggest that the weight is not there.

3. There was plenty said there. Whether or not you chose to see it is on you.

[Hikari Link]

\Link: town. I don't see any scum motivaton behind his posts. They seem like he's being the logical one here, waiting for those who have votes on them to post before voting them.

thats why i said you and gnr scumteam had more weight to it, because this post was weird.

It's werd for him to have a town read on me for having no scum motivation in my posts when I very clearly have no scum motivation n my posts?

So, you're saying that a link/me scumteam is more likely because you're finding things in posts that aren't there? I seem to be getting the impression that you are under the impression that my read on link was simply a bus. Wouldn't scum have their scum buddy as null or even scum read so they can gain town points when their partner dies?

I think you might be confused about what bussing is. That's when scum attck their partner for towncred. You might be thinking of buddying, but that still wouldn't be accurate if we were both scum.

Still waiting on those more detailed reads, by the way. All those nulls aren't going to cut it and the lack of any particular examples simply isn't god enough. Those people you have listed as null can't all possibly be null to you if you've read everything. If nothing else, there should be at least a lean there one ay or the other and there needs to be examples of what makes them null to you. At this point, very few people have so little content that you shouldn't be able to make a decision one way or the other to some degree and be able to back that read up with facts.

[Hikari Link]

oh come on

*shrug* Maybe if you weren't so scummy, people wouldn't vote for you. In the future, try some logic out.

That's L-2 people, so please be smart and wait for a claim at L-1 for the lynch. And wait at least a while for content from others.

@RandomActs

: I don't want this Day ending without significant content from you. Your lack of content is not getting past me just because you yelled at me.

@GNR

: I want more detailed reads from you before this Day ends.

@Frogsterking

: I want reads from you. Seriously. All of them.

@Smear

: You are not here and have not answered my questions as you said you would freely do. If you are still catching up, at least say so so that we know you haven't just disappeared. I'd like answers to my questions before the Day ends.

I'd like to get all of these issues out of the way, as well as determining if CooLDoG is going to be replaced before the Night phase. And I've still got a couple of things to say that are best left until right before the lynch, so even if you do support a redFF lynch, please abstain from hammering temporarily.

[Hikari Link]

im not getting lynched im fucking town. we also have to direct smears shot. smear i think you should shoot hikari, but thats probably not going to happen, so shoot gnr instead.

IF TONGHT THERE IS ONLY 1 KILL. LYNCH SMEAR.

Actually, we don't need to direct his shot and we aren't going to. Not directly anyway. I've got a plan to handle that. As for you, if you are town, then prove it by doing some pro-town shit for once in this game.

[Hikari Link]

my votes already on you

Oh, you

are

a riot, sir. So what exactly makes me so scummy that I'm the best choice for a lynch/Vig shot? Explaining your reasoning is one of those pro-town things I was talking about. It's great for showing that you aren't fll of shit and if your case is actually solid, you can convince fellow townsmen that they should also be on the wagon. But when the wagon is crap and yu know it and you still support it wthout any sort of legitimate evidence, that's fairly anti-town.

[Hikari Link]

I explained hik

Humor me here and do it again. Fully detailed.

[Hikari Link]

brothers was scummy, you continued the scumminess

That was so completely eye-opening. It's all so clear to me now I'm scummy because I'm scummy. BE SPECIFIC!!!

fairly sure hikari is town, i thought brothers was town too

And consistency wouldn't hurt you in future games. At least try to pretend you are being consistent. This is an insult to everyone's intelligence.

[Hikari Link]

reads change?

reads on a person that have long since replaced out of the game? I'm not even concerned with whatever half-cocked reasons you want to use to try to call me scum now, but how do you go from "Brothers was town" to "Brothers was scummy and you are continuing that tradition" and even then, the fact that you aren't referencing any specific instances of either towniness or scuminess is suspicious. What things specifically led to the original reads and what things contributed to the change? I've asked this on multiple occasions and the most I got was a meaningless quote from GNR. If you can't explain these things, how are we to accept that you honestly believe these things?

[Hikari Link]

It's pretty easy to forget a role when you also forget that you're even in the game anymore...


Jackal: obvtown
Link: Null lean town.
Frogsterking: Townish
Randomacts: Townish
GuyNamedRiggs: Scummy. Then again, Riggs ALWAYS seems scummy to me.
HowardRoark: Town
Red: Scum. If we don't lynch him today, I'll NK him.
CooLDoG: Town.

These are tentative.

@Smear: Are you a X-shot or an unlimited vigilante?

Unlimited.

Jackal: I don't remember anything about him
Link: Scum w/ Riigs
Frogsterking: i am the best player
Randomacts: Probably town. he doesn't seem connected to any players and what little he has provided has been relatively insightful
GuyNamedRiggs: Scum w/ Link. There is an undeniable connection between Riggs and Link. either riggs is some kind of sheriff role who has an inno on Link or vice versa, or they are scum.
HowardRoark: What little I've seen of him has lead me to believe he is Town. I am actually fairly sure he is Town.
Red: I am pretty sure he is Town. His posts give me the feelings he doesn't give a fuck about what the other players think, and that feeling almost always come from town players
CooLDoG: no idea
Smear: I believe he was scum for a while but his claim leads me to believe he is true

Be speficic about your reads, people. One sentence is not specific. Give instances for things. Cite posts. Give reasoning. Reads alone are useless, because anyone can just fabricate feelings. Facts to back these reads up are crucial.

[Hikari Link]

Smear is the lynch for today:

No he's not and no amount of arguing is going to change that, so fucking let it go.

1. Nobody forgets a vig role.
2. The prods are mod confirmed.
3. There have been no extra NK's
4. The vig claim was an obvious gambit with BBmolla's psychologist claim, whereby he'd later claim SK, but turned town. They'd mutually confirm each other.

1. You can't know that.
2. The prod that he responded to after Day 2 ended. Since

somebody

had to rush the fucking hammer, we don't know when he got it or anything else of that nature. I tried to wait and get him and everyone else back in the game, but you wouldn't have it.
3. And if his story is true, there's been no opportunity for him to make them. Unless I'm mistaken, he wasn't even online at all during a good part of Day 2, which I think was mentioned by several people during that period.
4. So then they discussed before Day 1 began and predicted that they would sequentially be caught Day 1 and Day 2 and both be required to claim?

These points are entrely conjecture and nothing there speaks of solid facts. The fact that you can't even wait for the results, which are easy to gain, is just utterly ridiculous and extremely suspicious.

Smear is the lynch for today:

Red's play has been poor and inconsistent since he moved his vote, but I'm not yet convinced he's scum. I had strong town reads on him earlier on.
Link is mostly neutral but a little on the scum side.
Riggs is town.
Everyone else is neutral for now.[/quote]
Those reads were as bad as GNR's first batch. So out of the whole game, you've got 4 reads right now, all of which are poorly or barely explained and also have a good chance of being wrong on every count? Hell, I barely even care about you being wrong here, it's the complete lack of explanation and detail that I have a problem with.

Link* sorry

Thank you for that.

[Hikari Link]

oh hikky hikky hikky

Stop being a fucking asshole just to piss me off and do something! Your constant attempts to provoke me are completely useless and serves no town agenda. At the same time, you are doing nothing even remotely reminiscent of scumhunting, you are inconsistent as hell, you avoid explaining yourself, and you promote reckless and . It should be plain for all to see that you are scum. You will hang once we've gotten the other necessities of the Day out of the way.

[Hikari Link]

explain how anything im doing is scummy

As though I haven't been doing that this whole time. As it turns out though, I'm actually capable of answering questions. Here are my key points:

1. Push on the Smear wagon[/url] and insistence that we lynch him before he had a chance to explain himself.
1a.
1b.

2. Push on the Smear wagon after his explanation came to light, suggesting that the idea of even entertaining the possibility that he's not scum is completely preposterous.
2a.
2b.
2c.

3. Lack of any actual scumhunting.
3a. See every post from you.

4. Constant and baseless hostility towards town.
4a. See every post where you call me Hikari. (This is easily my weakest point and could be attributed to someone who is just a chronic asshole, but it's still worth noting.)

5. Complete unwillingness to properly answer a question or explain yourself.
5a. See every question asked of you, lack of a detailed reads list, and an inability to lay out reasoning for your scum reads, particularly the wagon you are now driving on me.

6. Inconsistency.
6a.
6b.

7. Unwillingness to do any work to get proclaimed "obvscum"/"confirmed scum" lynched.
7a. Jump off the Smear wagon while there were still more votes on it than my own wagon and it was well within lynching range. The Double Voter hadn't even voiced his opinion yet and had you attempted to persuade him, you could have gotten a hammer.

8. Pretending that there's been no case made against you.
8a.
8b.

Backing up your reads is easy when there's actually evidence.

[Hikari Link]

smear is scum though, so pushing his wagon isnt scummy...

There's no way you can know that for certain unless you are scum with him and it's stupidly easy to check, so it is in fact scummy. Considering how easy it is to check his claim, particularly with the Disabler dead, there is literally no reason not to check it.

[Hikari Link]

i know because his day 1 claim was absolute bullshit and we've had 1 kill 2 nights in a row.

Are you an idiot out do you just play one on tv? He said he was unaware he was alive and then forgot his role when he was prodded, so obviously there was only one kill a Night. I'm not denying the story is unlikely, but it isn't impossible and it would be idiotic not to find out if the story is true.

[Hikari Link]

HES LYING

Smashing tale, old chap! Now tell the one where I give a shit how good you claim to be at being a human polygraph. Meanwhile, I'll be playing it safe over here with the sensible people.

[Hikari Link]

Red is doing nothing but causing unnecessary argument.

Vote RedFF

If red flips town, Link is probably scum, but I consider that doubtful at the moment.

@MOD can we have a vote count please?

I'm not sure how you make that jump. If we lynch redFF today and there is no additional NK tonight, expect me to come after you, because this stinks of scum lining up chain mislynches.

Your reads. Where are they? I asked for you to do into detail. Your shit is too vague. And why are you not posting now? You know the game is on, so you have no excuse. Now get to work.

Would it be a good idea to just lynch this spot so we don't need to wait for a replacement? It seems to me, that if we wait, this game will never end.

...
ok
UNVOTE:
VOTE: gnr

You're always making hasty moves, but at the very least, I can't say I disapprove of this vote placement. Doesn't mean I'm gonna let you off the hook for not explaining your case on me. I'm still waiting for that.

Would it be a good idea to just lynch this spot so we don't need to wait for a replacement? It seems to me, that if we wait, this game will never end.

Killing someone before they can be replaced is rarely he pro-town thing to do. And this Day isn't ending until you come out with those detailed reads.Don't think that just because I'm patient I won't lynch you in a heartbeat if you don't comply.

[Hikari Link]

Red is doing nothing but causing unnecessary argument.

Vote RedFF

If red flips town, Link is probably scum, but I consider that doubtful at the moment.

@MOD can we have a vote count please?

wow do we really have to wait a night to lynch this guy..

You got lucky here. And I'm actually starting to think you might be town. You're like Day 1 Frogster.

I'm not sure how you make that jump. If we lynch redFF today and there is no additional NK tonight, expect me to come after you, because this stinks of scum lining up chain mislynches.

You guys have been at eachother's throats, though I suppose I am making a jump. On the topic of no additional NK's, you SHOULd lynch me, unless you want to keep me alive as a puppet....



Link: Null lean town. Your consistent and persistent scum hunting make you obvious town candidate.
Frogsterking: Townish. He hasn't done anything scummy, even if he hasn't been 100% gung-ho town.
Randomacts: All around townish play, good, logical questioning, scum hunting and voting.
GuyNamedRiggs: Scummy. Then again, Riggs ALWAYS seems scummy to me.
HowardRoark: All around very townish play. Plus I'd never doubt someone who likes Firefly.
Red: Scum. If we don't lynch him today, I'll NK him.
CooLDoG: Town. Hammering BB didn't seem like busing.

Apparently I suck at fleshing out shit.
Regardless I think all of these reads are pretty self-evident.

They are not pretty self-evident. There's no such thing as self-evident reads. These reads are contrived as all fuck. I'm honestly sold on your lynch at this point. My problems with them:

Me: I've got the lowest thing that could be called a town read, despite the fact that I'm obvious town and have been one of the only peeople advocating not lynching your sorry ass today.
Frogster: He's done nothing sccummy!? And you've got him as "townish", which seems fairly high on your scale.
RandomActs: He has next to no questioning or scumhunting, he's placed exactly one vote per Day, being on town, scum, and you (allegedly town) and that's considered "god voting" by you?
GNR: There isn't even an explanation there. He's just the popular flavor right now.
Roark: There is no explanation there and the Firefly comment was irrelevant to your reads.
CooLDoG: BBmolla was 100% guaranteed dead. He ended the Day before we could fully hammer things out and jumped onto a wagon that waas definitely coming; it was the fucking perfect opportunity to bus.

I'm done with you, Smear. I'm ready to end this Day oncew we have our affairs in order.

kk smear is scum, hikari probably is too.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: hikari
either is fine, but claim vig blahblahblahbullshit

hikari on bbmolla

BBmolla: Null-town. His post are a bit infrequent and short and he hasn't really done much to set himself apart or contribute to the town. He gives a bit of a town vibe, but at the same time, he could be lurker scum.

more

@Doctor: I'm not even going to be subtle about it this time. If you exist and BBmolla flips scum, I'd like protection tonight. Yes, I'm aware there are two claimed PRs, but frankly, I'd say I'm more useful than both of them put together. Of course, even if you're real, you may not listen to this, in which case protect the Vig slot. Unless ofcourse, BBmolla somehow magically flips Psychiatrist, in which case the Double Voter is the safer protect. Again, that's only if you refuse to protect me.

HE KNEW BBMOLLA WAS GONNA FLIP SCUM SO HE ASKED FOR THE PROTECT

BUT WAIT

Vote BBMolla

The claim is bogus. Totally. End of story.

Hope that's not the hammer.

FoS: RandomActs

There's no reason to do that when there is still so much to do. We need unvotes.

THIS IS 6 POSTS EARLIER. SO HES ASKING FOR UNVOTES, THEN ASKING FOR PROTECTS WHEN THE CANDIDATE FLIPS SCUM???

DING
DING
DING

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Was there a point to these random posts and your meaningless comments? I'll summarize what is in this post.

1. My Day 1 read on BBmolla.

2. My plan for the Doc Night 1.

3. A comment about me knowing BBmolla would flip scum, so I asked for the protect. Even though I asked for the protect ether way, but just pointwed out which PR should be protected should the Doc decide not to protect me.

4. Me telling calling for unvotes so that we could sort the rest of the stuff out before the Day ended.

5. An explanation of when that post was. My only guess is that he assumed that me calling for unvotes meant that I was calling BBmolla town,when clearly what I was trying to do was getting thing things squared away, which is why when the hammer came down, I had to rush out all of my pre-Night statements.

6. Random dinging.

[Hikari Link]

hikari and smear are the last 2 scum. but town is too inactive/bad. everyone get on hikari right now.

You really are a dumb shit.

[Hikari Link]

pretty predictable.

scumteam=found

smear and hikari, everyone needs to change their vote to hikari.

Are you seriously just that bad at this game or are you scum? I honestly want to know. By process of elimination, I'd have to assume the former, but maybe I'm just wrong about CooLDoG. I guess Smear could easily be a bus. I mean, you've been so sure he's scum that you couldn't even be bothered with some basic logical shit that I'd expect from town. And you've tunneled the shit out of me with the fucking flimsiest cases I've ever seen. But it's almost too blatant for scum. Which is why it would be so deviously clever. I'm too tired to work this out right now, so fuck it.

[Hikari Link]

derp

Can you actually say things of relevance?

It's Hikari and GNR. This lynch is okay. Tonight if Smear passes the night test we have him confirmed and then we can move on to Hikari or GNR

You have no idea what you are talking about.

[Hikari Link]

Not wanting to give a claimed vigilante an honest chance to prove his claim is WRONG! I understand the case against him, but it's not enough to miss a chance to confirm a slot as town. If there's only a single death tonight, he can be lynched tomorrow.

The claim has

already

been proved false. Two nights have passed and no extra NK's. I still maintain Smear's the surest scum to lynch.

Technically, you are completely wrong. The fact that he has offered up an excuse, that if true, would explain the absence of additional deaths, means that nothing has been proven.

Would you guys prefer if I said who I'll choose to NK?

I most certainly would not. If we are going to put off your death, which it's probably best that we do despite how obviously scum you are, then it's best that we give you the best possible chance for you to prove yourself by letting your shot through. If you are Vig, then announcing your target just increases the chances that scum will try to shoot at the same person as you so that we'll mislynch you tomorrow. I may have an idea up my sleeve though. I'll post my idea for you and the Doc tomorrow and we can decide on a redFF or GNR lynch.

I need to reevaluate both to see which has the greater chance of flipping scum. GNR has had an extremely newbie edge to him the entire time, but at the same time, his complete lack of content and some of his more questionable comments have me wondering. On the other hand, redFF has tunneled on people hard for fairly illegitimate reasons. Still, something about his recent posts reads town. Not his "lol scum team caught" attitude, but the other stuff.

This is probably going to be a hard sell because the majority of my case here is lack of content, but I'd honestly say that I think RandomActs might be the best candidate, because we're a bit close to the deadline and I don't think there is enough time to fully evaluate bvoigt. Again, this is something I'll have to elaborate on tomorrow.