Mini 1315 - Wizarding World Of Hiplop's Mafia Game!

[kortul]

I really don't want to download the pages though

It takes like a minute or so, and browsing through them isn't that hard. I took a look at them, but will have to reread several times tomorrow, to get a feeling of interactions. Don't want to do this right now, since it is 0 am for me (i am at GMT +02). A pity some posts are missing, since i found several references leading nowhere.

P.S. The link in you signature is broken, theamatuer...

[kortul]

I really don't want to download the pages though

Same here, frankly. I don't know why, but I hate RARs.

<Goes to download file>

Oh, right- doesn't play nice without a specific program to open.

If anyone has it in anything but a rar (like a zip or pdf) that'd be swell.

I can re-compress them tomorrow if needed, but you can try 7-zip - it is free, and should open RAR. Once you extract the files to some folder, they will simply open in your default browser.

[kortul]

It took some time to read archive several times, was doing something like manual ISO for a future reference. I really hate that 23 posts are missing. Luckily, Tierce posts include quotes with post numbers, so i was able to scavenge some missing data from it, which is good.

Rife

- neutral feeling. A bit apologetic. For some reason was reluctant to tell his main account, but it can be seen in archive anyway.
HowardRoark (

ICENinja

) - not a lot of posts, but i like the ones i saw.

Chevre

,

gorckat

- neutral feeling, slightly leaning town.

Tierce

- leaning town, so far i like her posts and aggressive attitude, it generates pressure and/or discussions.

horrordude0215

- neutral feeling, nothing much to analyze.

Pizzadudes7

- not a single post scavenged (just 2 remarks in other people posts), no votes either, nothing to analyze.

Rang Tangler

- nothing so far, RVS->3-4 posts->V/La.

theamatuer

- almost MIA. 2 posts in RVS, and (97)"sorry. been busy recently. Will try to get in something tomorrow." after being prodded.

Yates

- just a single RVS post scavenged, though there is a vote on Descent. Nothing to analyze.

Descent

- skipped RVS, reluctance to vote, no stance on anything happening around.

4nxi3ty

- A few posts, practially skipped RVS, with first post being already serious: (28)

I've noticed a trend where scum use these "questions" to ease into D1, not a conclusive tell but we'll see if it applies to descent

Votes out of nowhere (post 56 in backup, post 10 after the restart).

So, my suspicions so far are on 4nxi3ty and Descent. I will do a meta research on them, to see if this is their normal behavior.
VOTE: 4nxi3ty

I would like to see more input from Pizzadudes7, theamatuer and Yates, quiet town sooner or later becomes dead town.

Descent

, while answering your own questions you didn't tell your timezone - can you share it? And in post 93 you promised to think about voting thing, did you have time to do it yet?

Hell, I have no idea right now, but you guys do have a point with the voting, I will have to think about it.

And in your answer to Tierce (previous post), you meant "were pretty

useless

", am i right?

4nxi3ty

, care to share your thoughts behind the votes i've mentioned?

[kortul]

4nxi3ty, care to share your thoughts behind the votes i've mentioned?

pressure votes

Can you elaborate? How do you pressure by a vote without an explanation, being a first or second to vote?

I would like to see more input from Pizzadudes7, theamatuer and Yates, quiet town sooner or later becomes dead town.

why haven't you considered that they could be quiet scum and why not more input from descent, rang tangler, or horrordude?

Did i tell anything about the alignment of Pizzadudes7, theamatuer and Yates? I don't make conclusions based on initial lurking (besides, i may be missing some useful input from missing posts), and there's nothing to analyze about them so far - no posts at all. Since they posted at least once after the restart, i hope to catch their attention. Rang Tangler and horrordude0215 had some visible activity, they are not here after the restart yet, besides i am not a shepherd to prod everyone around at once. As for the Descent - he is alive, and i asked him some questions already.

@kortul, Do you think my vote was OMGUS?

I wonder why are you interested only in my opinion? But no, i don't see your vote as OMGUS - this time you gave your reasons. I don't agree with them, and i see them as overreacting, but it isn't OMGUS vote.

[kortul]

by looking at the reactions to the vote. pressure doesn't strictly come from the explanation of a vote, it mostly comes from conflicts in the environment and the threat of a lynch.

Ok, you place a first (or second) vote on a player, without even addressing him before. It is far from a treat of a lynch, and it doesn't create a conflict between you and him (maybe curiosity), since there is no explanation associated with your vote. I'd say, that by placing such a vote, you are actually applying a pressure to yourself.

What, specifically, don't you agree with and how is it overreacting?

I fail to see that

"need to secure this lynch"

in ICEninja tone. He has his own opinion, and doesn't hesitate to voice it or act upon it, this is normal. He isn't even trying to appeal to anybody else to join him, so that's hardly an attempt to secure a lynch on you, imho. That's why i find your reaction extreme and strange, yet this is what makes your vote logical - you believe (or pretend to) in that phantom menace.

And i still want to know, why were you interested only in my opinion in a post 27?

[kortul]

It may feel like an RVS again, but it isn't. We have 5 pages archived, we have 2 days after the restart. Though, with 1/5 of backup posts missing, and such a low activity now, it isn't too far away from RVS... Rife, Rang Tangler and horrordude0215 failed to post for 2 days after the restart at all.

I really hope this is just temporary period of inactivity.

[kortul]

This discussion is almost the only thing alive in this sleepy town so far, so at least it cant' be scum vs scum. I doubt scum will make such a show in a dead town without spectators, and if at the end of this game both of you guys will flip scum, i would be really impressed.

4nxi3ty

, i have two questions for you.

I thought he was town and decided to defend him; since upon reviewing his meta, it was painfully clear he wouldn't defend himself.

Why did you think Descent wouldn't defend himself?

Should I not defend my townreads when they don't defend themselves?

It depends on a playing style, imho, you can either clearly state this is your townread, or defend him. The question is, why he was your townread? You reviewed the meta of Descent, found out he is always shy with votes. Does it make him town? If not, what does? And is he still your townread?

[kortul]

I don't understand why most of the players agreed to continue the game, only to ignore it afterwards. I can understand Tierce - she IS busy with cache hunting, but the rest of those who are lurking/missing? If you were not ready to continue, you could say so - i believe

hiplop

would understand this better, than what is happening at the moment.

Sadness is currently effecting me [hiplop, soon sadlop]

[kortul]

Just a quick post before going to bed, I had a hard day today.

i wanna wait til, atleast, a few more people get back and give their take before moving forward in a new direction.

also gonna wait for kortul to finish his meta research on me and descent before answering his questions.

I didn't say that my meta research would be quick, and had no idea that your answer to my questions depends on it. I don't like the possibility of your answers to be biased by my results, but still, if that is the only thing that you are waiting for, i will finish it tomorrow or on weekend (Descent meta search was easy, but you are much more productive). The discussions are too stagnant to make yet another stalemate.

[kortul]

Well, finally i had a time in the morning to complete my meta search.

1)

4anxi3ty

. He has a very peculiar style of posting - like 90% of the post (or even more) are just 1-3 short sentences. Regardless of his alignment his play style is scummy (in ALL the games), so he is lynch candidate too often. But, that actually regularly helps him to reach lylo/mylo as a town, since scum tends to believe they can manage to lynch him when needed. When he is scum, his behavior is the same, only less active, in one game he managed to be absent for more than a week with a posts like "srry i almost forgot about this game."

My conclusion is that when determining his alignment we have to rely on logic, votes and interactions with known scum (or on a gut feeling, if you believe in such things - i don't).

His activity increased recently, i cannot rely on his whole behavior (as explained above), so i will wait for his promised (post 38) in-depth analysis. Most likely, i will always suspect him for his playing style subconsciously, but i rarely let my emotions prevail over logic.

2)

Descent

. After analysis of his meta, i have a strong believe, that if he wants to play mafia seriously, he have to grow up over his reluctance to use his votes and his mind. In all the games his posts are sporadic, he is constantly fence-sitting, and tends to join someone opinion rather then form his own opinions/cases (actually, i realized right now that i don't remember a single presented case from him). He has (had?) strong feelings about votes - "Other then the RVS, I will never put my early vote on someone" (Open 324), "I never make a vote unless it's close to the deadline and everyone is sure someone is scum or to get people talking" (Open 334). Recent events here show that his stance towards votes have changed finally.

He isn't as closed as 4anxi3ty, so while reading him we can rely on behavior too (including all other factors).

More on Descent in my next post.

[kortul]

With that being said, I know that I promised something of content.

Overall,

the idea

that Pez

was scummy is something I kind of agree with

(so Kortul that means you) and overall I'm not sure on 4nx. I am not sure whether or not he is scummy enough to really warrant a vote on him.

VOTE: 4anxi3ty

Now, this is the post that have changed my view on Descent. I fail to see his own thoughts and opinions. He is "not sure on 4x", repeats it, and votes anyway. It isn't an opinion (and not even thoughts) - Descent, give us

your

analysis of 4anxi3ty, his actions/posts, with what you agree and with what you don't agree. Try to do a research and express your analysis. That would be a content.

He "kind of agree with the

idea

that Pez was scummy" - he doesn't think that Pez was scummy, he likes (kinda)

the idea

that he was scummy. Again - where are thoughts, where is his own opinion on Pez, his posts and actions? If he stated that Pez was scummy for him because of this and that, i could understand his thought process. But while skimming the thread, he stumbled on a words of another player, and now he has new target. Do your own legwork and if you are town, see if you come to some conclusions on your own, Descent (or if you are scum, make a believable case).

Combined with a meta search, my view on Descent shifted towards "even more scummy than i initially thought".

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Descent

P.S. I asked a question some time ago - you didn't answer your own question, what is your time zone, Descent?

[kortul]

Had to quickly go away while writing my second post, so want to add a question to a

Pizzadudes7

. You are experienced, you posted that "Pizza's troubles have been fixed.", but still no input? Do an ISO on you and pretend it to be someone else ISO - what would be your opinion?

[kortul]

My desire to play in this game is dying as well.

Besides, i am confused. Who is Norman? In the last vote count we still have Rife and Horrodude instead of Pine and Norone. Descent has 4 votes, not 3.

4nxi3ty and gorckat both think that Descent post had just a terrible vote, and that scum wouldn't do such mistakes. Why not? You are judjing from your experience and understanding on how to play scum, and we have a youg player (meta search), who is learning. If he is scum, he can do such mistakes. Moreover, for me his vote was a small thing - he could vote me instead with almost the same result (though, he would be attacked less by other players most likely). The problem I see in his post is that he doesn't give his own thoughts, analysis, stance - i don't see an attempt to do this. Not thinking on your own in a mafia game is always scummy to me.

And 4nxi3ty, was it really your in-depth on Yates?

[kortul]

4nxi3ty

, i have two questions for you.

I thought he was town and decided to defend him; since upon reviewing his meta, it was painfully clear he wouldn't defend himself.

Why did you think Descent wouldn't defend himself?

Should I not defend my townreads when they don't defend themselves?

It depends on a playing style, imho, you can either clearly state this is your townread, or defend him. The question is, why he was your townread? You reviewed the meta of Descent, found out he is always shy with votes. Does it make him town? If not, what does? And is he still your townread?

also gonna wait for kortul to finish his meta research on me and descent before answering his questions.

Still waiting for the answers...

[kortul]

theamatuer

, what are your current thoughts on 4nxi3ty and Descent?

[kortul]

I also will tell my current reads.

Tierce

- leaning town.

gorckat

- neutral feeling, slightly leaning town.

ICENinja

- neutral feeling, slightly leaning town, mostly because of his attempts to keep things going.

Rife

- MIA

riggs

(Chevre) - MIA

Rang Tangler

- MIA

Pine

(horrordude) - no read, nothing to analyze.

Yates

- neutral feeling.

theamatuer

- neutral feeling, not much of content.

4nxi3ty

- slightly leaning scum. He is active, which is good, but i am disappointed by his "in-depth" analysis. Also, i am still waiting for the answers (see previous post).

Pizzadudes7

- leaning scum, not a single post scavenged, no votes either, no content post-crash, yet more or less active in other games. Ignored my question.

Descent

- leaning scum. I hear the comments of gorckat and Tierce, and can see their logic, but as i said before, my concern is not his vote, but lack of his own thoughts and simple joining someone else ideas, i find this scummy. If he is actually town - it is a pressure for him to improve, think, and express his thoughts in his posts, both Descent himself and town will benefit from such an improvement. I am not stubborn, and if i will see changes, i will reassess my read on him.

[kortul]

Question?

Had to quickly go away while writing my second post, so want to add a question to a

Pizzadudes7

. You are experienced, you posted that "Pizza's troubles have been fixed.", but still no input? Do an ISO on you and pretend it to be someone else ISO - what would be your opinion?

It wasn't a rhetorical question - i am interested in your opinion.

[kortul]

Rang Tangler seems to have vanished :\

Eh, I'm not sure if Norman just /out'd or not, so I'm going to...prod him

[kortul]

4nxi3ty, i admit, that i took "Pre-crash his willingness to consider voting and not immediately placate his attackers gave off town vibes" for a second part of an explanation about the vote, so this is my fault. So the only one question remains -

why did you think Descent wouldn't defend himself?

There is a difference between your post and those of gorckat and Tierce - all of you defended Descent giving different explanations. I don't agree with "I believe scum would be more concious of making posts like that and wouldn't really want to attack the one person defending them." I don't find this explanation scummy either, just don't agree with it.

[kortul]

why did you think Descent wouldn't defend himself?

you saw his meta... it was pretty clear his effort level wouldn't change even with a wagon on him.

I like this answer. It proves to me that you've really seen his meta, and took an action based on your conclusions from research.

[kortul]

Had really busy day, so just a quick post - as far as i remember we have like 4 days left. With all those replacements, can we get an extension of deadline,

hiplop

? It believe everyone will agree that this request is reasonable, since a lot of time is lost just for technical reasons.

[kortul]

I have made a lot of mistakes in this game, but even from my angle it looks more like NoobTown than scum motivated play.

Can you elaborate on this? What of your actions you consider as mistakes and why?

I actually liked this post, because you started expressing your own thoughts and opinions, so you are improving. Can you answer my questions in the same way, and give your current reads and suspicions?

[kortul]

What am I supposed to be doing?

Posting content, voting.

Ok, it seems that you answer only to direct questions. Please, tell your reads and thoughts on Descent, 4nxi3ty, theamatuer and Yates. You can add me and ICENinja to the mix as well.

[kortul]

Guy_Named_Riggs, whom do you suspect so far and why? You aren't exactly casual observer, but live in this town - and we all are responsible for town destiny.

[kortul]

I'm too tired to explain myself clearly right now, so just a quick question to Descent before going to bed. Is English your native language?

[kortul]

Either way GNR being lurky is nothing new for me seeing him but for him to say there is nothing to comment on is a little weird to me. But the bigger duck in the pond is Pizzadudes. How is he allowed to just skate on by right now with nothing happening to him? VOTE: Pizzadudes7

Until recent replacements we had a lot missing/lurking players, so Pizza was in the background. Even now people are not that active - like this is your first real post in 5 days, Elmo. I tried to question him several times, but he is actively dodging all requests and provocations so far.

Posting reads in a sec. GOtta finish up a few things first.

Even after this announcement he was active on forums for at least 2 more hours according to the posts in other threads. He remains leaning scum for me, and after i will see the answer from

Descent

and promised reads from

Pizzadudes7

, i will adjust my reads and explain the thoughts behind them to everyone.

And i have a request to everyone - the Day will end on Monday/Tuesday, so try not to disappear - 2-3 scum adding votes to some wagon for some last minute reason can lynch almost anyone in the current situation. Let's come to some informed decision as a town, not just lynch a random player.

[kortul]

None of my reads have really changed in the past page. However I do raise an eyebrow when I see cheesy appeals to emotion like these:

You aren't exactly casual observer, but live in this town - and we all are responsible for town destiny.

Some people are logical, some are emotional. Most of the time they notice and react to different things. I have tried different approaches to bring Pizza to activity, now i am trying to do the same with Riggs. We don't exactly have much time left, so i worded the post to be heard by both logical and emotional people.

[kortul]

Rethinking positions on 4nx and theam after iso-ing each.

Was your Friday vote the result of those thoughts? If yes, what is your current opinion on 4nxi3ty?

I'll post later tonight before I go to sleep.

Elmo TeH AzN

, do you have any non-Pizza reads?

@Mod

, is Yates V/LA?

Second post is coming shortly, i am trying to express my thoughts more clearly.

[kortul]

I won't comment on

Pizzadudes7

reads, i even considered him being a Jester for a moment. For me he is now a scum having fun (with a slight chance of being town who doesn't care about the game at all).

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pizzadudes7

Descent

is a controversial read. He started expressing his own thoughts finally, and i like that - it means that he listens, and cares, regardless of his alignment. His posts have some air of newbie innocence, so i can see the reason why several players defended him in the past. My general impression on him shifted to neutral, slightly leaning scum.

But, there is one thing that caught my eye, and that's why i have asked him whether English is his native language - to be sure that the exact meaning wasn't lost because he isn't native speaker. This is either the scum slip, or a null tell, i will explain below.

@ Kortul: Mostly the questions are probably the biggest mistake, it put the focus onto me instead of others. So instead of everyone looking for

other scum members

, they were looking at me.

For me it sounds as "instead of searching for my scum teammates everyone started looking at me". The problem is, English isn't my native language, so i may be completely wrong, in this case this is null tell. And i don't have native speakers around me whom i can ask whether i am right or wrong, so i will rely on your opinions.

[kortul]

It is 2 days until deadline for the Day 1. Guy_Named_Riggs, you had plenty of time to present your own scum suspects and gather support, pressure them, ask questions. 4nxi3ty was doing it, without much success, but he tried. Pine isn't posting much, but he is on a second largest wagon, with a reason stated. And where were you? You promised to post something yesterday, where is it? If you are unhappy with a wagon, do something.

P.S. So far i have seen only two opinions i asked for in a post 228.

[kortul]

2 pages of activity in several hours? If everyone were even half that active most of the Day 1...

I will make several posts, to address different things separately.

kortul wrote: Descent is a controversial read. He started expressing his own thoughts finally, and i like that - it means that he listens, and cares, regardless of his alignment.

How do you differentiate Town responding to posting pressure from scum responding to posting pressure? Serious question. I just don't see how that particular line of reasoning for clearing Descent as Town holds any merit.

Yates

, try to read that post again. I didn't say that Descent become town, i actually stated another alignment there. I liked that he began to express his own thoughts. And i have asked a question there, that has direct influence on my read on Descent -

so far only 2 players answered it

. You say that you "are happier with a Descent lynch", and yet didn't even gave your opinion.

[kortul]

I have a strong gut feeling he's a scum-pushed mislynch. Opportunistic lurker-hunting on D1 ftl.

According to you, with 2-3 days until deadline, scum decided to make a new wagon and push it. And why would they take a risk to attract attention to themselves with such a move? For me, the only logical reason would be to get a scum-buddy off hook. At that moment we had 4nxi3ty and Descent wagons, both with 3 votes - again, it would be easier to push one of the wagons, not start a new one. What if they are both scum? It is possible, yet both 4nxi3ty and Descent are not on a Pizza wagon. So, lone scum pushing wagon that he knows will flip town, and bring back suspicion on both 4nxi3ty and Descent, and to himself? That would be one suicidal gambit.

To elaborate, I feel that if Pizza were scum, he'd have put up SOME kind of fight. Instead, he's just gone "meh, fuck you guys, I'm Town". That's not scumgaveup, it's Towngaveup. More I look at it, the more I'm certain.

How exactly voting no lynch (post 248) is a towngaveup from an experienced player? For me it is scum fighting action, especially when he saw another player ready for no-lynch (4nxi3ty, post 242).

[kortul]

Hell, 4nxi3ty is driving me crazy. On one hand, first he started talking about no-lynch, then later suggested less visible scheme of spreading votes "switch your vote to 4nxi3ty or theamatuer and lets see where the chips fall." Both ideas are really bad. On the other hand, he didn't join Pizza wagon, which is consistent with his reads, and seems to be ready to sacrifice himself. It can be a scum bluff and i am tempted to call it, but i just don't see how exactly his flip will clear anything and help us, if he isn't bluffing and is town.

[kortul]

Hell, 4nxi3ty is driving me crazy. On one hand, first he started talking about no-lynch, then later suggested less visible scheme of spreading votes "switch your vote to 4nxi3ty or theamatuer and lets see where the chips fall." Both ideas are really bad.

What so bad about forcing a no-lynch considering the current game state and the strong possibility of pizza being town?

Lynching gives us a chance of killing scum. We have no other way, actually. No lynching gives us no chance of killing scum and a townie dies at night anyway. Mislynches are always better than no lynches for they, at least, have a shot of hitting scum, and provide information to the rest of the town. There are exceptions, such as mylo with a cop/jailkeeper alive, but this isn't the case.

And i definitely not agree with "strong possibility of pizza being town".

[kortul]

Yates, hiplop is wrong - Pizza is at L-1 for at least one day already.

[kortul]

I did some heavy ISO in another game today, so my head is pretty much is filled with irrelevant information today. Hope i will have time and access on weekend to do ISO on ICEninja and gorckat, analyse everything that happened after the night, remember my own thoughts and check my notes on the game. Meanwhile, from what i noticed while skimming today, i don't really understand Descent, and feel like Elmo TeH AzN is active without actually giving any thoughts behind his votes.

[kortul]

I only started my research, so just a quick post with questions.

@Moderator

, there are several mistakes. On the first page Pizza is listed among living. And can you be more clear with votecounts? We have 10 players alive, not 11, and most of the time you list those voting in "Not voting" section again.

LIES (or maybe i just changed it...you'll never know)

Slandaar

, how many scum reads do you have now? And why you don't vote one of them?

[kortul]

ISO of ICENinja gave me some thoughts to consider for my reads. I won't speculate of who wanted him killed, since by the end of the day 1 he had four suspects (4nxi3ty, Descent, Pine and Guy_Named_Riggs). ISO on gorckat was less useful, i wasn't able to scavenge any food for thoughts there. It also took several hours to do ISOs on everyone, and update my reads.

Mindgamer

- leaning town. While he has even less posts than Guy_Named_Riggs, they are logical, have good thoughts, and i agree with most of the points mentioned. I really would like to see more presence from him.

Yates

- neutral, leaning town. Overall i think his posts are reasonable, even though i don't agree with all the points. I don't like one thing though, will explain in a separate post.

Slandaar

- neutral, slightly leaning town. Initially i had a bad opinion on him, and that wall war with Pine just made that impression even worse, but posts 398 and 402 shed the light on some of his posts and logic before. I don't agree with most of his conclusions, but he is actually consistent. I am curious about one remark he gave while presenting reads on Day 1, hope he will explain the thought process behind it:

mindgamer who knows he can die

Pine

- neutral, slightly leaning scum. I agree with ICE thoughts about him, but actually like that he decided to avoid a no-lynch. I don't like that wall with Slandaar. Also, i would like to see that catchup post he promised:

Over N1, I'll write up a full catchup post, complete with the reasons that have been floating around in my mind regarding TheAm and 4nx.

Descent

- neutral, slightly leaning scum. No read changes here, except for the question about his last post, that was already asked by Yates.

Guy_Named_Riggs

- neutral, leaning scum. Two weeks of doing nothing, not a single vote and just a post on the setup. Nothing to analyze.

theamatuer

- neutral, leaning scum. Not much to analyze, he has no reads for a second day (except for 4nxi3ty), and i don't like those speculations on setup.

4nxi3ty

- slightly leaning scum. My read on him didn't change, since he is sitting on theamatuer for a second day. I thought i noticed a scum tell on him, but after trying to explain it i understood, that at the moment it was done it isn't a scum tell, just illogical suggestion (i will make a separate post on this).

Elmo TeH AzN

- leaning scum. He replaced my town read, but managed to ruin it. Despite the activity there's nothing much to analyze, and two unexplained votes at the beginning on day 2 shift him into the scummy zone for me. Especially since he is voting for his town read, with no read changes in between.

theam is town in my opinion.

VOTE: Theam

VOTE: Elmo TeH AzN

[kortul]

During the day 1, Yates suspected Descent and 4nxi3ty:

Bottom line: I'm still happier with a Descent lynch than anyone else. I think we will have more to work on in the morning.

Hell, 4nxi3ty is driving me crazy. On one hand, first he started talking about no-lynch, then later suggested less visible scheme of spreading votes "switch your vote to 4nxi3ty or theamatuer and lets see where the chips fall." Both ideas are really bad.

Yeah, he's really the only person besides Descent that I would feel comfortable lynching today. I think I have made my case in any number of my responses to his questions over the last two pages.

At the start of Day 2, the main suspects are different, Descent is missing:

Yeah. I'm comfortable placing my vote right back on 4nxi3ty.

Vote: 4nxi3ty

Remains my strongest scum read.

Theam

is a close 2nd but 4nx is the play for today.

But, some time later he is back again:

I'm still extremely suspicious of Descent and will be monitoring his posts.

So,

Yates

, what's the deal with theamatuer being your second scum read (you didn't even mention him on day 1, what are the reasons for such a change), and how do you actually rank you scum reads now (including Slandaar)?

[kortul]

I didn't like the following post of

4nxi3ty

, and not only because of possibility of spreading votes:

You know what lets find out if me and theam are bussing.

@everyone, switch your vote to 4nxi3ty or theamatuer and lets see where the chips fall.

If he is town and genuily thinks theamatuer being scum, where is the logic in this suggestion? If theamatuer is lynched and flips town, those who support the theory of bussing would just get a support towards lynching 4nxi3ty. If instead 4nxi3ty is lynched and flips town, that will ruin bussing theory, but would say nothing about the alignment of theamatuer.

If 4nxi3ty is scum, and knows that theamatuer is town, that would explain the "lets see where the chips fall" part, because he gambles on the outcome. Ie if he is lynched theamatuer becomes mory scummy, and if theamatuer is lynched and flips town, that says nothing about 4nxi3ty but ruins the theory of bussing.

So, logic says that 4nxi3ty more likely to be scum for such suggestion,

but

why on earth would he do this while wagon is rolling on a Pizza, who isn't his scumbuddy? So, unless someone will explain logically the town or scum motive behind this post (other then vote spreading), i will consider this just an illogical post.

[kortul]

It's actually more of a Towntell. Scum are so concerned with maintaining an illusion that they don't make that kind of simplistic mistake. They also don't have multiple opinions in conflict. Only Town gets confused about where their suspicions are.

Pine

, can you take another look at Slandaar and tell me, whether your logic applies to him. He started the day 2 with 3 suspects, and in process of arguing with you made another suspect list (with Elmo still present).

And

Slandaar

, did you drop your suspicions on Mind and theam?

[kortul]

I was basically saying I got no idea of his alignment so killing him is probably a good idea.

You lost me here. Can you elaborate, killing Mind by whom would be a good idea?

[kortul]

kortul, your suggestion that I am illogical is making me cringe. (food for thought: would you try to force a no-lynch when you see a mislynch occuring?)

another thing to think about is that reads changing overnight is quite common for town.

Well, if you can give a logical explanation as to what you were trying to achieve by that post, that would definitely help me to understand you better. No, i am serious. Just imagine that all of us decided to agree to your idea - what results did you expect?

As for the read changes overnight - if you read carefully, i don't suspect Yates for this, just question (since Theam was null for him), but Elmo went from "theam town" to "vote theam" with nothing in between, and that is always scummy in my eyes.

[kortul]

Last time I saw theam play as town he was very active and very involved in the discussion. Today he has done nothing but jump on the biggest wagons, proddodge, and agree with the opinions of others.

Do you remember the game name or number (or a link)? I actually might have time this week to meta him.

[kortul]

MagnaofIllusion, fresh look at the game and thoughts are welcome

[kortul]

Elmo

, in case it isn't clear from my read and vote on you, i would like you to tell us the reasons for your vote on GNR, and the switch to theam. And i will repeat the question of Yates as well, in case you miss it somehow.

Yeah - you're all over Paranoia and the Newb game. Now I seriously want to know why you aren't posting here?

[kortul]

Yeah, I'll be doing my read through today. Unexpected complications at home last night.

For the record - I can do nothing with the RAR file so my read-through will be based on this thread. If anyone has a link to a regular zipped version of the recovered file please let me know.

Well, the link that hiplop made is invalid already, so i just repacked and uploaded the archive again: http://www.mediafire.com/?o672m74wggfigvs

P.S. This is the first time i see such an unusual way to analyse the day, so tomorrow will take time to read it carefully.

[kortul]

Elmo, the discussion went in the wrong direction. You still didn't explain your switch on theamatuer. What caused you to abandon your town read and change your mind? Reference to the day 1 doesn't really explain anything, since he was town for you then.

[kortul]

Just a quick post, i noticed an interesting thing in Elmo answer, will tell about it in the evening. Meanwhile, i would like to know everyone opinion on the post 500, besides the obvious inconsistency that Slandaar mentioned in 501.

[kortul]

@mod

4nxi3ty is voting already. And Elmo had 3 votes (now 4, after vote from Yates).

Im not one for knowing whats allowed in Mini normals but I didn't feel there should have been speculation of a SK. And even then why he didn't elaborate on it and

why the SK would go after gorcat

.

Yates - bingo. That's what i meant earlier, but decided to wait and see who else will actually notice it.

P.S. Elmo is at L-1 now, so no quickhammers. We still have like 5 days or so.

[kortul]

what is with this sk nonsense? and why haven't people considered the extra kill could come from ICEninja's JOAT abilities?... ICE could've been a hider who hid behind gorckat or a weak doctor who targetted scum.

You see, you are thinking on different scenarios. While Elmo didn't ask "Why SK would kill IceNinja or gorckat", the question was "why the SK would go after gorckat". He already knows one part of the puzzle, and looking for the second part.

[kortul]

That's embarrassing. While writing i knew there were 3 votes, after preview noticed yet another vote from Yates, and for some reason decided that 5 were needed for a lynch.

[kortul]

Welcome back, Mindgamer. Will be waiting to hear your thoughts.

Last time I saw theam play as town he was very active and very involved in the discussion. Today he has done nothing but jump on the biggest wagons, proddodge, and agree with the opinions of others.

Do you remember the game name or number (or a link)? I actually might have time this week to meta him.

here is the link

4nxi3ty, i agree that theamatuer-town (in that game) looks differently then what i see in our game - more alive, proactive, and reasonable.

theamatuer

, what is the reason for such a radical change?

[kortul]

4nxi3ty, i agree that theamatuer-town (in that game) looks differently then what i see in our game - more alive, proactive, and reasonable.

@Anxiety and Kortul

- do either of you have links to Town TheAm showing your basis for this meta?

Hmm, take a look at my previous post again - i asked the link from 4nxi3ty, and he gave it to me in the post i am quoting. theamatuer has a lot of games under his belt, and i wanted to see the game that 4nxi3ty was referring to in his case on theam.

[kortul]

2 words. Summer. Vacation.
Also, my next posts gonna be a huge one. With spoiler tags. Done hopefully by tomorrow.

Hmm, i can see what you are talking about. Still, i really liked that summer theamatuer much more, hope to see him back again.

[kortul]

Yes, I saw that. A link to a single game isn't meta that means anything at all. It's statistically insignificant and subject to all sorts of other factors (make-up of the player-based, when the game happened, etc).

I wanted to see if there was any other significant base of games Anxiety was using / that you were using when you agreed with Anxiety's statement.

I begin to doubt in my read on you, i thought you are more attentive to details. I wasn't talking about general meta on theamatuer, and there was no need to study other games to check the statement from 4nxi3ty. The statement was:

Last time I saw theam play as town

he was very active and very involved in the discussion. Today he has done nothing but jump on the biggest wagons, proddodge, and agree with the opinions of others.

I checked whether i agree with his impression, and said exactly that:

4nxi3ty, i agree that theamatuer-town

(in that game)

looks differently then what i see in our game - more alive, proactive, and reasonable.

theamatuer

, what is the reason for such a radical change?

I don't have time to read all the games of theam (that's a lot), so asked him about that particular game, and his answer makes sense.

[kortul]

Quick post, i will be on a conference for a whole day with no internet access.

After the last day Descent post 339 it was obvious that he is most likely a cop, that's why i actually stopped my questioning him, not to attract attention, and didn't pressure 4nxi3ty as well. Now, since the flip confirmed that Descent/Mastin2 is a cop, 4nxi3ty is confirmed town, so stop speculating on him being null or scum.

I really doubt that we have 3 scum left, since 13 players with 4 scum and vig/sk and joat is something extreme for the city. But still, there is a possibility, so think twice before voting. One vote on a town, and 3 happy scum can end the day. So Pine, if you are town, make sure you really believe in your read, since your vote is already placed.

At least i don't trust my reads now, so will have to do some ISO in the evening, vote count analysis, and will give my thoughts only after that. Finding 1 scum out of 2 (or 3) among 5 players should be possible.

[kortul]

These are pretty much the results I expected. I'm just going to come out and say it; I don't like that kortul jumped to "cop" while no one else did. Descent seemed like easy lynch meat, as Theam alluded to in his post 583. This was something that immediately came to mind when I saw Descent dead.

I couldn't figure out who would want to kill Descent and for what purpose.

The fact that kortul was able to volunteer answers to BOTH of those questions feels like a HUGE scum slip. When you combine that with the fact that he pretty much cheerlead the Elmo mislynch?

I'm going to put my money where my mouth is and:

Vote: kortul

If anyone disagrees with me or is against a kortul lynch, I'd like to hear a good case.

I disagree. You contradict yourself, Yates.

TBH, I was sure I was going to be coming in to vote Descent when I saw the mod holding night waiting for an action from his slot [

thought he was SK

].

So, during the night you thought that Descent was SK. And you still can't figure who would want to kill Descent and for what purpose?

Seriously? Scum, to eliminate SK (like you thought) or some PR.

As to figuring out how easy was to figure that Descent was almost likely COP after 339,

if you really were interested to know

, why didn't you ask 4nxi3ty, the only confirmed town? For me, it seems like you've got an idea how to blame someone, and was fishing to see who would bite. If you are town, you forgot one simple thing - scum lie, and in this case it can't be proved whether they are telling the truth or lie, they just blend with the rest of answers.

Just to entertain you, this is one of the reliable tells in a RL mafia with new player cops - one day he doesn't trust someone, the next day he protects him, but can't explain why. It isn't 100% sure, so if i were scum i would press Descent into revealing such a read change yesterday (working on 339 or his reads), just to be sure whom to kill at night.

And why at night did you wanted to vote SK during the day? At that moment you had no idea that one scum would die, so with 3 or 4 scum alive going after SK during the day is the motivation only for scum, not a town player. So who made a huge scum slip?

With that said, i still don't want to vote until i will finish my research, though now i will adjust it to check Yates interactions, since the likelyhood that he is scum is high after such a slip.

[kortul]

Lol. Nice try. I did not contradict myself in any way shape or form. If you look, I clearly meant that I came in ready to lynch Descent BEFORE reading the night's events. I realize I could have phrased that better but I didn't want to tip my cap too soon.

So, BEFORE reading the night events you thought that Descent is SK. And scum have no motive to kill SK during the night?

I didn't think the night phase would be held up for mafia since there are at least two. I [along with most everyone else] didn't think for a second that Descent was a Cop so the night wouldn't have been held up for that.So, by POE, I figured Descent must be the SK and I was ready to vote.

Let me ask again - why were you ready to vote SK, if there were at least 3 or 4 scum around? For a town scumhunting is a priority, not SK lynching. So, your mindset isn't townish. Period.

[kortul]

Yates, so, knowing during the night that we have 3 or 4 scum and 1 SK, and 8 or 7 players remaining after the night, you would go after SK? I fail to see your point and the logic here. If we had 1 SK and 1 scum, you desire to kill "confirmed" SK would be understandable. With 1 SK and 3(4) scum - that is suicidable for town. At this point SK is after scum as well, so he is town ally.

Kortul makes a good point on Descent's post 339. This does seem to imply an innocent on 4nxi3ty and it reinforces my townread on him. However, I would be wary of not straight up confirming him as town. Mafia godfathers are not uncommon and it is not unusual for serial killers to have investigation immunity.

We'll have to worry if he is godfather if he lives through the next night. And if he is SK, then he killed one scum more than we all together. That being said, i have some questions.

Pine

, now that you know 4nxi3ty is town, and they are not bussing each other with theamatuer, what are you points about theam? They have to be strong if you voted without the knowledge, are we in LYLO or not.

Yates

, if you are scum, feel free to continue attacking me, you are digging a pit for yourself. If you are town, please explain why do you vote now, if you have no idea whether we are in LYLO or not? During Day 2 you withdrew your vote twice, because you didn't want quick/accidental hammers, even after something that

"ultimately won your vote"

. Why so careless now?

[kortul]

I'm thinking we don't go for the 4nx wagon today. I want to come back to it, and

I know this is going to sound extremely scummy

, but I don't think that his wagon should go through to a lynch today. Thinking I might agree with TheAmatuer Lynch, not sure on it though, but the meta changes that have been mentioned is a rather interesting coincidence. I might have a look at that myself tomorrow.

This indicates

uncertainty

about 4nx. Uncertainty that is carried into later posts as well. If he had an innocent, he wouldn't be equivocating like that.

Also, TheAm lynch is endorsed by the dead Cop

So, you think a cop would take a risk to draw suspicions on himself, just to protect his suspect for one day? He couldn't exactly say "4nx is not a scum anymore" in his

first

post after the night. And i don't see any certainty about me or Slandaar being his confirmed town reads (comment on 604).

So, you think theam is scum because Descent said he might agree with his lynch? Then by this logic, since Yates was the only player whom Descent voted for a whole day 2 we should lynch him?
Do you have any other reasons left? I can't say that i like theam, he did nothing except promises and prod dodges for two previous days, but if you have a case on him - present it.

[kortul]

Friday 13 was tough. Will clear my head on weekend from all the work and finish the research.

[kortul]

Posting from kindle, it is Easter in my country. 4N (and others), please, if theam or pine will be at L-1, dont hammer before i will post my thoughts.
Yates, you vote just to test someone else theory??

[kortul]

Here i will present my case on Yates. The rest of my reads and thoughts are in the next post. I am going not to mention certain things i didn't like, because it will just make this post longer, distracting from main points.

Spoiler: Day 1

During the day 1 he is already afraid of being accused of something.

FTR - I don't even care that the post above sounds like buddying. I am placing this post here as a placeholder to remind myself why I did it in case I get accused of buddying later on in the game. The fact of the matter is that this is the only logic being presented right now that I think just about everybody should be able to agree on.

The post itself says that he does care being accused of buddying. Why would a town player even think about being accused of buddying later in the game, making an innocent post?

He worries about Pizza wagon: "Where did this Pizza wagon come from so quickly? It seems to have grown AWEFULLY fast for someone that was active lurking then posted poor reads.".
He believes Pizza claim:

As to your claim? Obviously not a strong claim. Not something that will dissuade people on your wagon. Somehow, though, I believe you.

Yet, he makes

no attempts to persuade anyone to join counterwagon

, instead after just two hours announces:

If it makes you feel better,

intent to hammer

?

Spoiler: Day 2

Pizza... we will find out shortly but

I am thinking he flips town as there are many lurkers here it doesnt make sense why he took the heat over the others

.

Interesting that you somehow magically

knew

Pizza would flip Town while not actually actively preventing his lynch. Who would know information like this but not be interested in preventing a ML? Oh right - SCUM.

Hmm, interpreting

"i am thinking"

as

"i know"

? And accusing Slandaar in something he is guilty as well (he didn't like the wagon, believed a claim and yet no calls to jump to counterwagon).

He is suspicious of Descent, Descent is voting him almost whole day, and yet he asked one question and doesn't follow it with any more questions or pressure at all? Too afraid to find out an answer, or just doesn't want to draw attention? When Descent did a vote the previous day Yates was much more active with questions.

Here comes wagon on Elmo. Yates was interested in it, but didn't switch for some time (MoI was there already?). Slip from Elmo provided an easy entrance:

Im not one for knowing whats allowed in Mini normals but I didn't feel there should have been speculation of a SK. And even then why he didn't elaborate on it and

why the SK would go after gorcat

.

That's the part that ultimately wins Elmo my vote.

Unvote
Vote: Elmo

So far everything is natural. But an hour later:

Unvote

I don't want a quick/"accidental" hammer vote.

Anything else you want to say, Elmo, before the lynch?

I'm with you on Slandaar.

Any other reads?

He is talking to his scum read as if he knows that Elmo will flip town, and wants some hooks to use during day 3.

Here comes Day 3. Yates is making a poll, is not interested in 4nxi3ty opinion, ignores thoughts from theamatuer and answer from Pine:

He was way too lurky to grab my attention, and as slandaar said, his reads were all over the place.

Scum might have had a rolecop, or they saw mastin replacing in and panicked to kill him.

Descent would definitely be on the "leave till later as mislynch" list

I had a gut feeling that he was a PR

, given his quiet attitude and the way he was trying to keep his head down. Didn't jump to Cop though, and

didn't want to out him

.

and announces the idea that i was the only one who volunteered answers to why someone killed Descent therefore i am scum. Guess, he "missed" the answer from Pine, wasn't interested in theam thoughts, and wants us to believe that scum don't read the posts from mod during the night and don't adjust accordingly. His second point on me was "cheerleading the Elmo mislynch". By that he is probably calling analyzing posts and asking Elmo questions, ie scumhunting.

But he actually made yet another slip while explaining his results, i won't repeat it. I can understand some of his answers, but he keeps ignoring the ultimate question:

Yates, so, knowing during the night that we have 3 or 4 scum and 1 SK, and 8 or 7 players remaining after the night, you would go after SK? I fail to see your point and the logic here. If we had 1 SK and 1 scum, you desire to kill "confirmed" SK would be understandable. With 1 SK and 3(4) scum - that is suicidable for town. At this point SK is after scum as well, so he is town ally.

In case someone still doesn't understand me, in a best case with 8 players, among whom there are 3 mafia and 1 SK, lynching SK is suicidal, since mafia wins during the next night.

Moreover, he dropped his case on me, and after the promise from 4nxi3ty he added a second vote to theamatuer, to see if Pine(?) will withdraw his vote. This can happen only if both Pine and theam are scum, in all other cases Pine vote will stay. In other words, he claims he isn't sure am i scum or not, but is willing to test if two other players are scumbuddies??

I am convinced that Yates is scum.
VOTE: Yates

[kortul]

4nxi3ty

- i still believe he is conf town.

Mindgamer

- strong town read. I'd like to see more posts from him, but those i see have good thoughts, questions and observations.

Slandaar

- slighty leaning town. His reactions seem natural for me, most of the time he builds his own cases, and he is not afraid to make enemies. I haven't seen a good case on him yet.

theamatuer

- slightly leaning scum. His behaviour didn't really change on day 3, and my experience tells me that scum tend to be more active in a small player pool. MoI said he will concentrate on Descent and theam on day 3, and killing Descent at night meant he was going to come at theam, which would be either extreme bussing or clears theam. But I see like 3-5 posts from him with some content, everything else is prod dodging and promises of content. And i know he can play much better, therefore i still see him on a scummy side.

Still, i don't see him in a team with MoI and Yates (unless he was supposed to be sacrificed to make them both look town)

Pine

- leaning scum. Things i do like about him - he wasn't afraid to lynch Pizza, he admitted he had a gut feeling that Descent was a PR.

Spoiler: Things i don't like about him

I don't like his interpretation in Post 151.
I find suspicious his stance on Pizza wagon:

I do not endorse the Pizza wagon. The reasons are bad, and the way it formed gives me the screaming heebie-jeebies. 243 looks and feels like frustrated Town, not last-ditch scum gamble.

I have a strong gut feeling he's a scum-pushed mislynch. Opportunistic lurker-hunting on D1 ftl.

To elaborate, I feel that if Pizza were scum, he'd have put up SOME kind of fight. Instead, he's just gone "meh, fuck you guys, I'm Town". That's not scumgaveup, it's Towngaveup. More I look at it, the more I'm certain.

PE: See, now that just reads as blatant pushing for a no-lynch. One day before deadline, trying to split the group between three candidates is just skeevy, and disingenuous because that would never work out in the given time.

Desperately pushing a single counterwagon, as I am,

is fine. Pushing two is scumtacular.

The problem is, once the Pizza wagon formed, there was no pushing of a counterwagon from Pine, he was just sitting on 4nxi3ty, telling everyone that he doesn't like Pizza wagon. Even after Post 274 from 4nxi3ty he just commented on it, no attempts to gather support for his counterwagon.

Also, i would like to see that catchup post he promised:

Over N1, I'll write up a full catchup post, complete with the reasons that have been floating around in my mind regarding TheAm and 4nx.

Eh, I still haven't fully read what happened before I replaced.

I usually don't when I replace in, and it usually works just fine. Suffice for now that I am caught up and current. I'll expound on my suspicions of 4nx and TheAm soon though. Been a very busy week.

That's more than 2 weeks after replacement? And the promise to "expound on my suspicions of 4nx and TheAm" is still a promise.

I missed that Elmo slipped that he knew which kill was which. Early elimination of

a Serial Killer

sits right by me.

Why his first reaction was that Elmo is SK, not mafia? In an hour he fixed this by adding another post, but the initial reaction is still suspicious.

I can see him as a partner of Yates, especially after Yates organized (added second vote) the counterwagon once at least 3 players proved they want to lynch Pine (Mindgamer, Slandaar and 4nxi3ty), and conveniently missed that Pine also admitted suspecting Descent to be a PR.

[kortul]

theamatuer, your logic about words of MoI is faulty.

Scum

Elmo – rocketed to the top for reasons I will elaborate in a case in the next 48 hours.
Descent – play today has consisted of lurking out pressure
TheAm – play today continued my scum reads
Slandaar – jumps to the top of list if Elmo is scum.

It means that when Elmo flips scum, Slandaar would just remain simple scum for MoI, not go back to town section. Not sure whether that changes your suspicions or not, though.

[kortul]

I started to read your case on me then fell asleep.

Nice defense.

Pine/theam are the scumteam

, either you are going to listen to me or not. Whatever the case I am ready to hammer either if they get to L-1, so if there is still some things you want to discuss keep them at L-2.

I'll test this theory... Pine is currently voting Theam. Let's see if he moves his vote once Theam has more pressure.

Yes, I will absolutely vote for Theam to test

Slandaar's

theory because it will give us a crap ton of information. If that's scummy? You can bite my scummy butt.

It isn't Slandaar theory, and please elaborate on ton of information you want to gather.

I hope everyone realizes, that if we mislynch today, and during the night SK kills town, and mafia kills SK, the game is over? Ie we are in a possible mylo.

PEdit. Hmm, if indeed we have 2+2 mafia, it can explain certain things that are puzzling. But from our point of view, just substitute SK for the team with 1 mafia left, the result would be the same - possible mylo today.

[kortul]

@kortul - you never said how you read Descent's post. Was he saying he investigated YOU or 4nx?

I said it several times already. Last time was 3 posts ago:

4nxi3ty

- i still believe he is conf town.

I am still not certain completely who Yates partner is, but i am pretty sure Yates himself is scum and should be lynched today.

[kortul]

I only have Pine as scum with kortul.

The problem is;

if Theam is scum

I don't know

who his buddy is. It could be Pine

<...>

Yates says he only has Pine as scum with me, and the very next thing - Pine can be scum with theam.

The more the day progresses, the more absurd and inconsistent his behavior and logic become. If you haven't already, please read my case on him.

[kortul]

4nxi3ty

,

Mindgamer

,

Pine

,

theamatuer

- what are your thoughts and comments on my case on Yates?

Slandaar, i am sure that Yates is scum, so lynching him is my priority for today. Read my case again, please. If there would be no support for this wagon at all, and nothing changes, between theam and Pine i will vote Pine, since 4nxi3ty, Mindgamer and you support this wagon, and both Yates and theam are not there.

[kortul]

If there would be no support for this wagon at all, and nothing changes, between theam and Pine i will vote Pine, since 4nxi3ty, Mindgamer and you support this wagon, and both Yates and theam are not there.

I can't speak for theam - whom I am voting for so good luck with the Yates+theam buddy team theory - but *I* am not on the Pine wagon because I don't think it's the best play for today.

One more proof - Yates believes in logic, but is trying to play on emotions, forgeting logic. Did i even mention Yates+theam team? Yates and theam are my scum reads, and both are not on Pine (my second strongest scum read), therefore i can accept Pine lynch to avoid no-lynch. If i thought that Yates + theam team was more likely, i would say so and refuse to vote Pine.

Yates, what theam-scum discussion you are talking about? Pine is voting theam based on a meta reasons, you are testing someone else theory - really convenient stance, it allows you to avoid building any case and fly under radar.

[kortul]

Yates, your

case

on theam are

the posts where you mention that you suspect him???

Even there you don't say why, i will quote those posts below. I begin to have a suspicion that you do everything to keep us

from

theam by making his case look as silly as possible. Are you really interested in lynching him?

Yeah. I'm comfortable placing my vote right back on 4nxi3ty.

Vote: 4nxi3ty

Remains my strongest scum read. Theam is a close 2nd but 4nx is the play for today.

So,

Yates

, what's the deal with theamatuer being your second scum read (you didn't even mention him on day 1, what are the reasons for such a change), and how do you actually rank you scum reads now (including Slandaar)?

My scum reads go like this:

1. 4nxi3ty
2. Slandaar
3. Descent
4. Theam

<cut>

TBH - I've forgotten all about Theam. I liked the arguments earlier in the day but they seem to have fallen flat. Conversely, Slandaar has done a fantastic job of digging a hole for himself. I'd need to go back and reread to see what the main arguments were but I don't recall anything standing out - which is telling in and of itself.

[kortul]

Wow. Several hours ago everything was quiet.

Speaking of theory - i've read about massclaim in a wiki, but still don't understand how exactly this helps us, with two strong PR already dead. This is only my fourth forum game, i've seen it only once, already being dead, and it was just a mess, scum won without problems. I can see how it may help scum, but what useful information it can give to us? Can anybody explain the logic behind it or link me to the successful examples from their games? Thanks in advance.

And Yates, will be waiting for the case.

[kortul]

Slandaar, as i said, i've read the theory. Do you have any examples of successful massclaims for a town?

As far as i see, right now you are for massclaim, Pine is against, theam agrees if you go third, Yates also thinks that you should go third or second. 4N didn't really comment this idea, and Mindgamer is MIA; i have no strong objections, if i will see how it may help us. If you are serious about massclaim, it is a stalemate right now anyway, and if it was a provocation, i need some practical examples to figure out how to interpret the results (ie whether scum really hates massclaims, the only one i saw so far they loved).

[kortul]

Thanks, will read more about it tomorrow then. So far i trust to

4nxi3ty

and

Mindgamer

, and to Slandaar to some extent (but his opinion i already know). I believe they should have some experience to know whether this is right time (at least 4N), so if both of them agree to massclaim, then i am up to it.

[kortul]

I am really tired of this game. Day 1 - more than half of the players lurking or MIA, day 2 a bit better but still a mess, and even now with 7 alive Mindgamer is absent for 6 days, theam is doing nothing. I will give it one more try. With massclaim attempt over, let's try and reanimate scumhunting.

4nxi3ty

- please, tell me your opinion on my case on Yates. Even if you believe that theam and Pine are scum, most likely we have right now some kind of 2+1 scum scenario, so who is third?

theamatuer

- if you are town, spend some time and help us. Read the cases, comment or present your own. I already pointed the logical fallacy in your Slandaar case. Doing nothing is a good way to let scum win, and if you don't care - why didn't you replace out once you lost interest?

Pine

- if you are town, just imagine for a moment that 4nx

is

conf town. Who are the scum then? We have at least 2, and most likely 3. You have a meta case on theam, but what about others?

Yates

- if by some twist of fate you are town with a huge scum trail, start doing something logical, defend, present your case on theam, open your eyes and think. If i were scum with partner(s), why would i even concentrate on you? I would just pick whoever of theam/Pine isn't my partner and vote him. And if i were lone scum, i wouldn't actually care whom to lynch at all.

If anybody feels that my case is wrong - tell me why and where, i am not a bull, i listen to arguments.

P.S.

hiplop

, when is deadline for the day?

[kortul]

2 votes is L-2

Well look at that. You're right. In any case, I was waiting for 3 people to be on the wagon so I guess L-1. I didn't realize we lost so many people.

If that's true, then now you realise why i was surprised that you put theam at L-2

to test someone else theory

, knowing 4nx promised quickhammer - if that happened during the time you are away you had no way to unvote. At least now you say that you believe that theam is scum. And you questions today were logical, while reading them i had the same thoughts.

I am not sure whether Yates-theam or Pine-theam teams make sense, since both Yates and Pine were sitting on theam for at least a day (L-2), so each of them was ready to see theam lynched, unless they don't sleep at all.

Pine, If you believe Theam and Slandaar are a scum team, why did you want Slandaar to vote first? What's the difference, as long as he votes against your scumread?

[kortul]

So we decided to throw the remaining week away. *shrug* With hiplop away we still have a chance to hear something from Senjai before the night, though his absence worries me.

I really hope theam will flip scum, that will improve our chances to see the next day considerably. If he flips town, sk (vig?) shooting mafia will be our last chance.

If i die at night, my alignment will be clear, so i repeat my suspicions in case they are not obvious - Yates most suspicious, Pine is second. If i live through the night, i will reassess based on theam flip and night events/flip(s).

[kortul]

I have no objections.

[kortul]

*shrug* If that will help you to gather your thoughts ok, just be sure it is hours, not days. I am ready to claim.

[kortul]

This reminds me the way this game restarted after the reboot. Only we cannot apply any pressure by voting now, especially when there is a possibility of two scum parties... Senjai, what's going on?

[kortul]

@Senjai - you have 7 hours to post. If I don't see something up by then, I'm voting for you and giving kortul the win. I don't even care which of you is SK and which is scum.

@4nx - don't role reveal. As far as these chuckle heads know, one [or both?] of us is BP or Avenger or PGO.

Looks like Yates has hard time trying to figure out whom to kill at night, so decided to do half of the work during the day by voting someone out.

Senjai, when you will be back - try "

View your posts

" link. It is at the top and bottom of any page on mafiascum, and it actually shows the list of topics where you have posted so far, and whether there are new messages there. Really helps in quickly checking you games and other threads.

@Yates - i don't care about the claim of 4nx, since i still believe that Descent cleared him, but if

you

have no intention to claim - say so now, before the massclaim started.

@mod

- can we ask to prod Senjai earlier? I suspect he forgot about this game again.

You can certainly ask, though he just posted ~

[kortul]

Hmm, i thought you wanted to tell something before the claims, Senjai. But anyway, let's start.

I am Vigilante.

During night 1 i didn't shoot, not much information at that time, and i was too active during the day so wanted to avoid possible trackers/watchers.

During night 2 i shot MagnaofIllusion, for balance after Elmo flipped town. I rely on experience from real life games - once someone is lynched during the day in a middle of the game, if you have the power, eliminate a player who actively pushed the lynch, but isn't likely candidate for a lynch next day.

During night 3 i shot Pine. In critical situation i wanted to break all scum teams that i could imagine, and Pine fitted in all possible teams, while Yates only in a team with Pine.

Senjai, your turn to claim.

[kortul]

Yates, your turn to claim.

[kortul]

Wait a minute. If you are vig, then that would mean there is only 1 scum left? Also, I have to go back and look at kill flavors. I was 99% sure there was an SK due to "knife" appearing in the kills.

Do you mean that was a real question, not rhetoric? Your guess as to the setup is as good as mine. How this speculation is related to your claim? Let's finish with that part, and we will have several days to figure out possible scenarios and who is who.

[kortul]

So, you decided to start the speculations instead of claiming yourself. So predictable. If you believe we have an SK and scum alive, i just painted a huge bullseye on me for the incoming night, you should be happy. So stop the act and claim, or just give up.

[kortul]

We have at least one scum, at most two scum from different factions.

Did you want me to tell everybody that we have Vig around instead of SK? And i really doubt that IceNinja would got out and kill gorckat during the first night just because he has the ability.

If we have two scum, i think it is Yates and Senjai (i have doubts about this claim - why Mindgamer would cure GNR and Pine, that makes no sense, more likely that Senjai was lazy to read the game), and if we have one scum, i am lost. That's why i want to hear your claim as well, Yates.

[kortul]

Senjai - we can't have 2 mafia left, the game would be over already (unless it is 2 mafia + SK + Vig, then this is a massacre setup).

@Yates - because i still think it is entirely possible that we have scum + SK left. I don't see IceNinja all of a sudden spending his ability to kill gorckat during the first night, just because he can - so why there were 2 deaths? During night 2, after hiplop started looking for replacement for Descent, it become obvious he is some kind of PR, so i wouldn't be surprised if he was killed by both scum parties. And during night 3 if there is SK in our town, his priority would be killing scum to improve his chances to win, so there's chance for double kill for that night as well.

Why there is a Vig and JOAT in our setup - this is a question for mod. I am more surprised to see Doc with JOAT, since JOAT has probably more ways to protect than to kill.

[kortul]

Bulletproof SK would be too much, i think. And if we do have SK, then there is also at least one mafia left, since initial mafia team of goon + tracker is too weak in a kill heavy environment. I don't see how we can figure out who is scum and who is SK, unless someone will confess.

Yates, why you were so reluctant to claim VT?

[kortul]

Well, it is time to tell the truth. I am not a Vig, but vanilla Neighborizer with a restriction - i can't neighborize players with special abilities. First i tried to neighborize IceNinja, the next day - Descent, and on the third day finally succeed with 4nxi3ty, who is my neighbour now. I neighborized Yates today, we will know the result at night.

4nxi3ty suggested Vig gambit, no one counterclaimed me, so we have no real vig around, just SK + mafia.

Since 4nxi3ty has no special abilities, he can't be SK, and i still believe he is cleared by Descent, so can't be mafia goon either. So Yates and Senjai, this is between you two. Mafia now knows that neither me (neighborizer) nor 4nxi3ty (no special abilities) can be SK, so by method of exclusion will kill SK during the night, and hope that SK won't believe Descent. SK has harder time, but his best chance is still to shoot mafia and hope that mafia will still believe that i am a vig.

[kortul]

So stubborn and predictable

Bah!

[kortul]

Wow, congratulations to the town! We did it But i agree with Pine, that if Senjai didn't disappear, mafia would win after Yates stubbornly killed me.

Just wondering, Yates, did you really think that Mindgamer would make such strange choices to cure night 1 and 2? And if by some miracle Senjai IS a doctor, he would cure me whether i am Vig or Neighborizer, so shooting me would be pointless.

Also, it would be interesting to see the day/night choices and outcomes.