Mini 1368 (Game Over)

[pieceofpecanpie]

Claim, wah?

VOTE: pappums rat

Sounds dirty.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Claim, wah?

Role Claim.

I was also referring to the above statements concerning why we'd want a claim so early.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Alright, FUT threw me off but I'm going to have to do this anyway.

I'm a Miller.

I don't recommend anyone follows suit with their roles.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Circles, triangles? What the jolly hell is going on?

[pieceofpecanpie]

What would lead you to that conclusion?

I'm interested in the response to this.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Take a look at FUT's posts everyone and tell me something.

Sure he comes from a different site, so we can look beyond the odd opening about roleclaiming and the mention of jester within a normal game.

But tell me, is there any site where you would normally answer on behalf of someone when they are being treated with some degree of suspicion?

I'm referring to FUT's #42:

I have doubts cheery dog is actually scum. He is Jester at best. His posts don't seem indicative of something mafia would do, TBH.

This came immediately after collective "WTF" posts from Lupo, Paschendale, pappums rat, triangle and Hellhound directed

at

Cheery Dog.

I have no idea why FUT would come in to answer on behalf of Cheery Dog, or at the very least spring to his defence with no validating reasons for doing so.

Can I assume that his unfamiliarity with mafia on this site extends to not being aware that defending your scumbuddies openly highlights the both of you?

Idiotking was right on the money, and I want an answer.

I have doubts cheery dog is actually scum. He is Jester at best. His posts don't seem indicative of something mafia would do, TBH.

Why? As pappums rat has said, Cheery claimed a minor scum read for something that means nothing at all. That led to a stupid argument about the nature of circles and triangles. I personally don't see it as a tell either way, just an annoying distraction, but you seem to indicate that it means that Cheery is somehow not scum. What would lead you to that conclusion?

[pieceofpecanpie]

So I can tell for sure, pecanpie, was your miller claim a joke or serious?

My Miller claim is 100% serious.

I will do what I can for town, and if scum leave me alone for some reason then town can policy lynch me before LYLO or something similar develops. Just don't waste time investigating me.

@FUT So you don't think Cheery Dog's irrelevant posts is something scum would do? Then it's a null tell surely. I didn't FoS you, I reiterated a pertinent question of Idiotking that you left unanswered. Am I not allowed to ask questions because I investigate as scum?

[pieceofpecanpie]

I'll wait for an answer before I vote.

So what do you think of FUT's posts since?

[pieceofpecanpie]

Alright, that last post settles it.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Cheery Dog

If you're going to pick through peoples words with a semantic comb then expect to get your own flung back at you.

You devote an awful lot of time on needless waffling.

Triangle's #59 seemed crystal clear to me, to paraphrase, I read it as

"give us something of substance"

. Your response in #60 was laughable, you pull some names out of a hat and dress it up as scumhunting.

To be so finite with filler, but balk at genuine townplay is mighty suspicious in my books.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Are those the total of your reads from this "reaction test"?

[pieceofpecanpie]

Even-night vig then?

Your refusal to outright claim at L-1 is noted. Though not useful.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Just for the minute I will...

UNVOTE: Cheery Dog

I don't really want Kublai reappearing to the party with a "i can has hammer" post.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Read the last page and a half a couple of times.

Not seeing Hellhound case yet, but I understand there should be suspects caught in the quick CD wagon.

Main reason I unvoted CD - not revealed at the time - was NS' vote for L-1. One of the weaker cases I've seen. That and his contradictions about FUT's scumminess - pointed out in Melmond's #122 - reek of sheeping and statements made for convenience.

Modem or no, I'm not encouraged.

Before I vote however I want to do a little bit more reading, looking into this wagon. There's every chance multiple scum eagerly hopped on. Doesn't mean you get a free ride to whatever day you told us would be "exciting", CD, I've seen quick Day 1 lynches before and there's every chance your buddies already sold you short. You may have dug yourself out of a hole with some well-timed speculation, but I'm yet to feel convinced that there is a genuine scum-hunting agenda afoot post "reaction test".

[pieceofpecanpie]

Re: Hellhound

Alright, I'm beginning to somewhat see the case.

[...]I don't like Hellhound's ISO. Looking at his posts, it's hard to see much actual content coming out from him.

He's asking a lot of questions of other players, which is fine, but there's not really any follow-up and he's not substantiating any opinions from whatever information he's gained from them.

There are also a couple instances of IIoA (information instead of analysis), such as his post addressing pecanpie's miller claim from a theoretical point of view or the one calling out lurkers, which, combined with the way he cautiously words weak scum reads on the top two wagons and nothing else, makes him very scummy.

The part I've underlined is what rings most true to me.

This feels similar to how I can mistakenly play scum - ie. too passively - where content is posted, but it's really just to boost my appearance rate. Then when someone makes a case on me it's easy to become overtly defensive.

Now Hellhound's #127 is interesting, a lot of it feels like knee-jerk defensiveness with a scum tinge. And I'm not entirely happy with the NS vote, it seems a little easy to point out the lurkers and then follow it up with a vote a few pages later when the tide swings their way.

My gut instinct tells me there's something to Hellhound. Either way, a much more fruitful flip for information than NS, and given that's who he's voting I'd rather avoid an NS wagon for now.

VOTE: Hellhound

[pieceofpecanpie]

@Pashendale Who would be your ideal Day 1 lynch and why?

[pieceofpecanpie]

#14

PoPP

, do you claim miller by default in your games? If not, why did you claim here? All I noticed was Pappums and Cheery soft-opposing claims from any players, not just you in specific. FUT asked for a claim, but no one else was asking for you to claim.

First time miller (game history in wiki), so I had to have a think about the best action to take.

Honestly, I was going to claim in my opening post, but your slot - FUT - beat me to the first post of the game and his calls for claims put me right off. I didn't want it to sound like I was claiming on behalf of someone or their request, so I stalled, but decided it would still be best to claim sooner rather than later. My reasons for doing so are thus: it puts town in a stronger position with at least one conf town to begin with, mafia are forced to consider using a nightkill to get rid of me and town PR's can focus on other targets.

My playstyle whether I claimed or not wouldn't differ, I would spend my time tracking scum suspects and following suspicions for as long as I'm around. I'll also reiterate that if, for whatever reason, scum don't target me then I'd ideally like to be lynched before town enters some sort of lylo situation. This would at least prevent remaining scum from using me as WIFOM fodder to confuse town loyalty.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Just a quick question I have while reading through jester and Lupo's conversation on this page.

@killerjester Given your back and forth with Lupo - referring to posts #155, #156, #158 and #159 - what do you think of Lupo's #162?

@Paschendale I haven't forgotten your question. Will respond soon.

[pieceofpecanpie]

@killerjester What has Lupo missed about the others on the NS wagon?

[pieceofpecanpie]

What about you, Mr. Pie? What's your ideal and why?

I suppose it would be Hellhound, for surprisingly similar reasons that you made on NS.

Particularly the elements of joining wagons with suspect reasoning, and add to that the passiveness mixed with defensiveness. A scummy cocktail imo.

Crucially what makes Hellhound more ideal than say NS, is because he has been somewhat present in the game. Thus his flip would provide both information on the people who are/aren't on his wagon and make analysis of his interactions more fruitful.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Alright, that clears you for now. Just following up on a vibe I got between you two.

So now that I'm past that I just briefly wanted to break down another misconception I gathered from Lupo's voting.

His #155 pinged because it was a pro-town speech that completely sidestepped an important element for good townplay: asking questions.

CD's play

should

evoke questions. I don't understand how elements like being distracting or an annoyance make for a good reason to vote. Unless of course, there's a wagon there to sheep.

Fast forward to #162 and Lupo again asked no questions of NS, despite his returning post directly above, and is resolved enough to put a vote down. Again sheeping a wagon.

Lupo speaks as if he is knowledgeable of towns best interests, yet his actions show that he is only interested in where his vote should go. And his votes sheep wagons.

Scum team of Hellhound and Lupo very likely. Post #51 and #113 has him defending Hellhound with a kind of flavour that suggests scumbuddies (ie. little incentive and unclear motive for doing so), and #94 is a bit of conversational fluff between the two with a similar scummy flavour.

[pieceofpecanpie]

I think that means he's a confused individual.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Apologies for jumping in on that one jester, I couldn't help a FUT MkII quip.

I'm not sure what triangle or NS are seeing in each other, but with CD jumping in for a threesome it really is a bit of a love tri- (you see where I'm going with this, poor joke). I don't understand what CD's doing with his suspicions or vote on NS anyway. Despite his "reaction test" actually providing some useful insight and information on players, he certainly doesn't seem to have absorbed any of it. Or at least worrying about NS' L-1 vote with blinders on is actually ignoring players of much greater interest.

There will be a time for looking into players like NS, and many others too for that matter, if and when it's needed but it's not going to be Day 1.

So given the game in its current state, I'd be happy with a Hellhound or Lupo lynch. Either one is scummy enough to warrant it, and either flip will provide valuable information that can be examined in Day 2.

[pieceofpecanpie]

@basketballstar, Melmond, killerjester A bit under 5 days till the deadline. When are you going to vote?

[pieceofpecanpie]

@basketballstar The Lupo case is touched on by killerjester in #169 and #206, I make some points about Lupo in #170. From there you can backtrack through other posts and look at his ISO to make up your mind.

[pieceofpecanpie]

I don't know who is scummier, though, but I'll vote Lupo because I don't want some mislynch here if someone hammers Hellhound cause he's at L-2.

Wut?

Clearly if I wait for Hellhound the end will end without me voting for anyone.

Wut?

Doh

Wut?

[pieceofpecanpie]

It would be nice if Hellhound poked his head in here to share some thoughts, being at L-1 and all. Regardless of that he should still be today's lynch.

As a side note, if Hellhound doesn't come back then both of the people I've tried to pressure will have gone MIA. In that case I'm either omniscient or really keen on flakes.

You forgot to mention your intent to hammer.

While I'm here (and not working or trying to finish packing because I'm moving house) I thought it'd be best to type out some reflective thoughts on today.

Don't take whatever Hellhound flips for granted tomorrow, as it stands right now there is only confirmed townie here - me - and if I should not make it through the night then it is up to every other townie to take up scumhunting with maximum diligence. Make up your own mind and don't fall into a passive trap where you let one or two people steer the lynches. If you are having trouble seeing my miller claim as genuine - good - don't take my word for granted, however I am going to continue doing everything to ensure a town win for as long as possible. I will once again state that I would prefer to be lynched before any LYLO situation, neutralising WIFOM that scum can generate from my slot, but until then scumhunting will be my game.

I notice a few people are giving town reads on killerjester. My advice would be to remain skeptical of his motives,

especially

if Hellhound flips town. Consider the possible association between his slot (FUT) and CD. Consider also that CD's "reaction test" created suspicion on players like Hellhound and Lupo, but that CD was not at the helm of that suspicion. His own genius stopped after making the distracting posts, and seems happy enough to have dug himself out of a lynch hole while letting the votes fall onto others.

Players that have escaped anything major thus far like pappums rat, Paschendale, Idiot King and Kublai Khan shouldn't be given a free ride to endgame. Note also the "scumminess" of NS' early L-1 vote and the rapid wagon that formed on him. Try to discern whether it was a scum-driven lynch on CD

or

a scum-driven counter-lynch on NS. Also note basketballstar's confusing series of recent posts, is there a scumslip there?

And to anyone I haven't mentioned directly, my advice to town is don't forget about them and don't let them coast along. I would go into further detail on players, but in doing that I feel the basic point of this reflection would get lost: town don't let yourself become passive and lazy.

(Sorry about sounding preachy, I'm just trying as much as possible to be a thorn in the side of scum)

[pieceofpecanpie]

Don't take whatever Hellhound flips for granted tomorrow, as it stands right now there is only confirmed townie here - me

LOL since when are you confirmed town???

If you are having trouble seeing my miller claim as genuine - good - don't take my word for granted [...]

Any reason why I shouldn't be confirmed town at this stage pappums?

[pieceofpecanpie]

Why bring up your miller claim again?

I don't very much care what looks good and what doesn't, I just want it to look truthful.

I reiterated my miller claim to strengthen the sincerity of what little advice I had to give to town, just in case I were targeted in the coming night.

Or let me put it this way, if pappums or someone else wants to muddy the waters it better be with something better than "Lol, you could be lying".

Until then, I'm a town miller mofo, my win condition is for all town threats to be eliminated, and I'll continue playing to that condition.

[pieceofpecanpie]

No popp, your condition is to control half of the town, that first sentence of yours is bullshit.

What? No!

Did you read my #246? Am I telling people to do what I say or imploring people to think for themselves?

Any reason why I shouldn't be confirmed town at this stage pappums?

Confirmed town means that we won't be lynching you at all, since we are in fact going to be lynching you later, you are NOT confirmed town.
Though you are given as town until day 3 or later depending on how well our scumhunting has gone, this is not the same as confirmed, it just means you will be getting a free ride up until that time.

Are you a moron?

Free ride? Isn't that what you're (attempting) to get?

I'm not going for any free ride. I'm trying to win a game for town, if it's in the interests of town that I die today, tomorrow or whenever so be it.

But before I get called out for AtE, let me reiterate what I'm saying once again.

1. I

AM

town
2. I am a town

miller

3. Miller's investigate as scum
4. If scum don't eliminate me at night then the fact that my town role

investigates

as scum could provide WIFOM fodder for the

real

scum
5. To negate this from happening I say "keep me around for as long as I'm useful and then I should be lynched before any LYLO scenario"
OR (an alternative, which I don't consider favourable)
6. "keep me around because you're all comfortable with the fact that I'm town, despite any investigation on me coming back as scum"
7. Considering me as confirmed town makes one less person to investigate, eliminate from suspicion etc. etc. which makes for a smaller pool for scum to hide in.
8. This

IS NOT

a trap, trick or devious plot of mine. This is my best attempt to help town win.

I don't very much care what looks good and what doesn't, I just want it to

look

truthful.

I reiterated my miller claim to strengthen the sincerity of what little advice I had to give to town, just in case I were targeted in the coming night.

Or let me put it this way, if pappums or someone else wants to muddy the waters it better be with something better than "Lol, you could be lying".

Until then, I'm a town miller mofo, my win condition is for all town threats to be eliminated, and I'll continue playing to that condition.

To just look truthful? I'm not going to be judging a book by it's cover thankyou.

FoS : Pieceofpecanpie

Then what are you judging me on? What is the merit of that FoS?

"Not judging a book by it's cover", what does that even mean in this case? Catchy though it is, clanging and bunch of pots together in order to draw attention to me does not make me suspicious.

If you are saying my miller claim is a "cover" and you are yet to see my book, perhaps you would like to provide some analysis of my other posts? You know, the ones that don't involve talk about miller claims. There's plenty of them to draw upon. From the manner in which you've made your suspicion on me I'm assuming you're drawing upon evidence outside of my miller claim, which makes me look scummy. Would you mind telling me where that is?

Let me tell you how it is my scummy chum. That chainsaw FoS you pulled on me is the most baseless opportunistic bullshit I have seen so far in this game.

The credibility of your vague PR claim and your early-game waffling palmed off as "reaction testing" is hanging by a thread.

So tell me, why shouldn't I be suspicious of you?

[pieceofpecanpie]

Don't fly off the handle and go all OMGUS just because someone is scumhunting in your direction. If there's serious flaws, address that. But it's not scummy to doubt someone's credibility.

There's no OMGUS, there

are

serious flaws and I have addressed them, vis-a-vis if CD is doubting my miller claim then he would no doubt be ready to provide penetrating analysis of scumminess in my posts.

Oh and thanks for the enlightening breakdown Paschendale, but I don't believe any of that post was directed at you.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Muddied my waters?

Lawl, I don't see your case. I see pathetic scum chainsawing.

The onus is on you to prove I have something to defend, currently your case still reads as "Lol, you could be lying".

[pieceofpecanpie]

Also, if there is a vig please FTLOG shoot pecanpie. While I dont think he is scummy enough at this point to lynch (I would still take either HH or Lupo over him right now) he definately cant live to see LYLO after this display and I would like him dead ASAP.

You're asking a vig to kill me...

[pieceofpecanpie]

@Mod

Is it worthwhile to search for a replacement? I mean they'll join a game with the obligation to read through the thread and with at least two people saying they'll hammer their slot.

[pieceofpecanpie]

@Mod

Is it worthwhile to search for a replacement? I mean they'll join a game with the obligation to read through the thread and with at least two people saying they'll hammer their slot.

This post is troubling to me. I dont think it is up to the mod to decide whether or not it is "worthwhile" to search for a replacement for a flaker, that is up to the players. The mod upholds the rules of the game (including replacing flakers) and the players decide who lives and who dies. What exactly are you asking the mod here? For a modkill or what?

That is a genuine question addressed to the mod, I'm not on trial for it, I want to hear what he says.

It is not part of the actual gameplay so kindly refrain from using it to further your cause.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Since we're waiting for CDB's input, and I still believe his flip will give a good amount of information to work with come Day 2, my vote is staying put.

In the meantime I thought I'd address a couple of points.

Firstly,

miller claim

- I didn't make this claim to coast through days or escape suspicion, as has been suggested, but I do realise that it's been hasty of me to assume that this - along with the rest of my play - would cement myself as town in the eyes of everyone. The WIFOMy rhetoric of how genuine my claim is can continue ad infinitum, but I hope from the posts where I've been analysing players and trying to root out scumplay such a claim would support the source of my words and actions. ie.

a townie scumhunting, as opposed to scum manipulating

Secondly,

You are not confirmed town, and you wont be until you flip, so dont try to make out like you are, because that is bad play if you are town and scummy on top of that.

No worries, you have every right to see it that way.

I won't be bringing up how town I know I am again, and believe it will come across indirectly through my efforts at analysing and scumhunting. Speaking of bad play as town...

Also, if there is a vig please FTLOG shoot pecanpie. While I dont think he is scummy enough at this point to lynch (I would still take either HH or Lupo over him right now) he definately cant live to see LYLO after this display and I would like him dead ASAP.

You're asking a vig to kill me...

Yes, as a matter of fact I am. It would take care of a scummy claimed miller and would free up a lynch that would otherwise have to target you before LYLO. As far as Im concerned that is the best course of action to take after the things that went down over the last few pages.

I don't know how encouraging a vig to take me out is a positive end to this debate. It would be much more informative to form a wagon on me, not to mention less lazy on your part, and would leave something more than just a flip. Asking something like this is just bad play if you are town and scummy on top of that.

Thirdly,

It is not part of the actual gameplay so kindly refrain from using it to further your cause.

Uh, yeah, it does relate to gameplay.

Well of course it relates to gameplay, I wasn't going to ask the mod about must-see movies or book recommendations. But it wasn't my way of getting an immediate lynch on Hellhound's slot.

Your question reads like you're looking for mod justification to go ahead with the Hellhound lynch instead of waiting to hear a claim from the slot or see what the replacement has to say.

The Day was stalling, discussion seemed stagnant and the question just came to light naturally as I wanted an update on what was happening. If the mod were to say something like "well I'm still looking for a replacement, but does this mean you don't think I should bother? What about everyone else?", then we could have discussed it, but since he was already looking for a replacement I posed the question to him rather than ask everyone myself and be a backseat moderator for it. I certainly wasn't looking to impose a direction on how the Day should end.

The answer came with the replacement's arrival, and I guess we'll just have to wait it out till he posts something.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Well then, a worthy replacement.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Worth noting is that Lupo lurked out the rest of today.

Also, I have ill feelings regarding Cheery Dog and killerjester. In short, pappums rat's posts have felt genuine whereas the other two have made some that sound skeptical for the sake of sounding skeptical.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Why bring up your miller claim again?

I reiterated my miller claim to strengthen the sincerity of what little advice I had to give to town

How is this something that town writes exactly?

Well I wrote it, and I'm town, so I suppose it's something town would write because I wrote it.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ask_a_Stupid_Question_Day

I believe I posted that to add strength to my words, were I to be nightkilled and when others may look back over them. In fact I can quote sentences and cut them short too, but the full one should read:

I reiterated my miller claim to strengthen the sincerity of what little advice I had to give to town, just in case I were targeted in the coming night.

Also, you can hang on to "artificial", for the record I was being sincere. What reason do you have to call it artificial?

[pieceofpecanpie]

Oh by the way jester, your thoughts on the hammer?

[pieceofpecanpie]

Your logic is retarded.

Is it in town's interests to lynch town?

Is it in town's interests to get a vig to target town?

Is this constant drum that you're beating concerned about killing me on the basis of policy or scumminess?

If it's policy, I brought up the idea originally to ensure that scum can't use me to generate suspicion later game. That idea did not include vigging.

If it's scuminess, then where is your case? And why would that make it a good idea to vig me?

You are spouting the same bullshit over and over, and it's both distracting and a hindrance to me when I approach it with some sort of obligation to answer. So I'll make it clear. Think what you will, believe what you will, as it stands your position is not pro town and not helpful. Unless I see a post that can't be summarised with the basic premise of "Lawl, you could be lying about your claim" I will ignore it and concentrate on analysing players and following suspicions.

[pieceofpecanpie]

A mountain out of a molehill.

[pieceofpecanpie]

pecanpie's #337 is a load of WIFOM bullshit.

And your case...?

Of course it is not in town's best interest to lynch or vig town, BUT BY NO FUCKING MEANS ARE YOU CONFIRMED TOWN. You claiming that you are confirmed town WAS scummy and you trumping up your miller claim as a reason to think you are town WAS scummy as well. You saying you are trying to LOOK town WAS scummy as well.

...your case is a load of WIFOM bullshit.

So no, I am not saying your miller claim is reason to have you vigged as you are trying to misrep me as saying.

Oookaaay...

You're asking a vig to kill me...

Yes, as a matter of fact I am. It would take care of a scummy claimed miller and would free up a lynch that would otherwise have to target you before LYLO. As far as Im concerned that is the best course of action to take after the things that went down over the last few pages.

Sure whatever you say Captain Bullshit.

If we have a vig in the game, the number one candidate is pappums rat.

He is a record player stuck on loop.

Is his position good townplay? Nope.

Is it good scumplay? Attracting that much attention by rehashing the same thing again and again, not really.

But hell why not tunnel someone on threadbare reasons and thank the so-called vig gods for fulfilling your wishes when they do deliver. Good way to distance yourself from your role, no?

[pieceofpecanpie]

Looking at players thus far.

Nobody Special

- Lurking for genuine reason and then lurking for (no?) reason. Wagon formed on him was fishy, so leaning town on him because of it, but unhelpful town at that.

Lupo

- Real lurker-sauce last few days. Possible association with Hellhound. Probable scum.

basketballstar

- Dubious play towards the end of the day, keen for Hellhound lynch to go through, but his own motivation is murky. Possible scum.

pappums rat

- Either a particularly zealous breed of town or likely vig candidate. Hard to separate my perspective from the tunneling he's been doing, but actions do not fit well with scumplay.

Melmond

- Null. Hasn't stepped too far out in either scumhunting or looking scummy.

killerjester

- Possible association with Cheery Dog from previous slot, could be an accident. Is happy to fan suspicions, but plays it safe when it comes to wagons or lynches. Suspicious player, potential scum.

triangle

- Leaning town.

Cheery Dog

- Ridiculous early game, takes initiative with a "reaction test", but doesn't follow his own leads. Chimes in with others and generates suspicions with little follow through. Suspect player, potential scum.

Idiotking

- Null. Not overly active, hasn't made an impact beyond hammering Hellhound.

Paschendale

- Leaning town.

Kublai Khan

- Leaning town.

Hellhound/ChannelDelibird

- The lynchee. Replacement said unfortunately little, despite an extended twilight giving ample opportunity.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Obstinate? I would much rather be focused on the gameplay of others than defending myself against your vitriolic dribble.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Hmmm, diving straight into wagons and no comment on the lack of nightkill?

No comment on the Hellhound flip either? In regards to this, a Lupo wagon makes no sense since a lot of his scumminess was from associative tells with Hellhound.

BBStar seems like an easy wagon to pile onto, let's do that right? I'll come back to that a bit later.

Cheery is town because of #327

Explain please.

@Mod

Request Lupo prod if he doesn't show himself shortly

[pieceofpecanpie]

I fully endorse a jester wagon.

VOTE: killerjester

[pieceofpecanpie]

Hmmm, diving straight into wagons and no comment on the lack of nightkill?

I don't think there's much to say since set-up speculation won't be fruitful at this time. Why do you think this is something significant to be touched upon?

Hmmm, yes I agree speculation is not fruitful right now. I just found it interesting in the context of today's opening posts screaming "ye gawds BBStar/Lupo next to die", no one took the vig flip or lack of night action into account. Not speculating, just observing. Worth revisiting later perhaps.

I have asked the mod to replace me from this game. I'm sorry everyone.

@pappums Anything you'd like to comment on about the game before you go?

[pieceofpecanpie]

or lack of night action into account.

wait what.
I assumed there were at least two night actions last night on the same person, are you telling me scum no-killed?

Well for town it appears as a lack of night action, I don't know what

you

saw happening.

There could be a number of possibilities to what happened, I wasn't limiting it to one.

[pieceofpecanpie]

As for the NK speculation, I'm pretty sure it was blocked, but lets not speculate on it further. You're pretty much saying I'm not a doc/jk/etc and narrowing down the possibilities of who is.

Yep, yep, agreed.

Except of course scum being crafty and pleading innocence to it all, so the narrowing remains ambigious...

On the note of crafty scum, I'm working on a largish post, but it's a work in progress.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Why are you happy? (elaborate a little if you could please)

[pieceofpecanpie]

This is dumb dumb, I'd cobble together a largish post about scum theory on players like killerjester and Cheery Dog and try to meticulously explain why. But as a result I would end up defending the actions of players like Lupo and Nobody Special.

ie. Person A:

"I don't like you, you lurk, I'm suspicious" *votes*

Lurkersauce:

"I'm totally here and contributing, hi guys" *token vote* *disappears for 5 days*

Now the problem here is that depending on who Person A is I get either townie or manipulative scum flavours, but to develop a largish case on that feels redundant when there's this luke-warm contribution happening from a whole bunch of lurkersauce players who would get town credit by proxy. Credit where credit's due, and I don't think it's deserved in this case.

I'd consider a policy lynch on a decent target an option. Lupo, for example, appears to be doing another fading act and if his flip doesn't favour town, than looking closely at his wagon may. BBStar is a possibility, his posts confuse me more than anything, how anyone can discern scum from them is beyond me. Perhaps someone could enlighten me as to why he's scum? Or chances are I'll be wanting to look very carefully in the direction of those who are labeling a VI scum.

[pieceofpecanpie]

EBWOP: Lupo's latest post didn't show... weird

Uhhh, in light of that, I don't bloody well know. I'm just going to bang my head on something till I strike upon a concise thought... or concuss myself.

[pieceofpecanpie]

So just to clarify, is that incentive for NS to post more or a challenge for him to convince you he's not scum? Or both?

[pieceofpecanpie]

There are three people here with less posts than the mod, another couple hovering in that ballpark. Although that doesn't place the most accurate value on their contribution, it's not the most favourable townplay.

Everyone who is town post moar naow prease and we'll totally catch those lazy scum unawares.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Is NS at L-1?

Yes, hammer him.

[pieceofpecanpie]

By virtue of Hellhound's town flip I felt the scumminess I picked up from Lupo's associative tells weakened.

Also, I'm getting a vibe this game that scum are contributing more than most of town.

So on the whole I feel my scum thoughts on Lupo have been nullified a bit.

On the other hand, going awol for

over a week

at the end of Day 1 only to come back and be like

"see told you guys Hellhound wasn't scum"

is

extremely

aggravating.

On that note...

UNVOTE:

A killerjester wagon won't fly today.

VOTE: Lupo

However, a good policy lynch might. And may put to bed a few questions I have about killerjester and pappums slots.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Me bussing Lupo? It's not.

But what is it you're trying to weave out that little reflective stream?

I've changed angles over the course of posts and days, but such is the nature of the game. My thoughts on players shift as the game progresses, I consider that totally natural as well, don't you? I will point out that I don't feel I've contradicted the reasons for my policy lynch on Lupo, coincidentally he posted as I was making a point about him lurking

again

, but that doesn't diminish the frustration I feel towards his week+ disappearance at the end of Day 1. Whether I am talking about current lurking or previous instances of lurking, the point is still the same, it's still anti-town.

Remind me again what the crux of your scummy feelings on Lupo are, jester?

[pieceofpecanpie]

@Pecanpie: So your read of lupo went from scum to null and

then

you vote him. what?

Ehhh, something like

scum by association --> null --> anti-town --> null/anti-town/scum chance

.

I'm really not a big fan of policy lynches either. Why not try to find scum instead of policy lynching someone? Its only day 2, we just need to pick up the pace.

I have to clarify that my vote on Lupo

is not

pure policy based. It's seeking scum through a player who is either scum themselves, or an anti-town player who has received attention from scum suspects of mine (ie. killerjester).

At this point I feel it's easier to push a lynch on Lupo, there's good info to gather from his flip and, at the very least, it's good policy.

If I was to purely push for a policy lynch, I'd throw someone like NS into the ring. But that would reveal absolutely nothing, and serve little use.

Pecanpie, why the hell would you say that NS was at L-1 when he wasn't?

Also, lol at BBStar's NS vote. VI confirmed as far as I'm concerned. His last series of posts have made no sense. I'd like to think we're not dealing with a scummy award nominee.

Also, consider yourself a town read Idiotking.

[pieceofpecanpie]

You're essentially lining up lynches while trying to seem uninvolved with them. So it's individually scummy.

Funny, that sounds like your game. Sprinkle a little suspicion here and there, get wagons rolling.

I'm happy with my vote and it's staying. Do you want to see Lupo lynched or not?

@BBStar Not talking is what NS is doing most of the time, what do you want from him? And why try and justify an OMGUS vote through me?

@NS Pressure? On BBStar? The guy claimed VT before you got anywhere near him. How are you applying pressure when he's already been singing like a canary? Who are your scumsuspects?

[pieceofpecanpie]

Funny, that sounds like your game. Sprinkle a little suspicion here and there, get wagons rolling.

Tu quoque is not a valid defense for what you are doing.

The thing is I'm not clamming up and calling you a hypocrite to shut you up. You misinterpreted my response, I found it funny because I fail to see how I'm playing uninvolved or lining up lynches, but it does bare a semblance of truth to your game.

Aside from your logical fallacy, where do you actually see me lining up lynches?

For example, at various times you gave a Hellhound lynch your blessing, yet kept distant from it by focusing on Lupo.

There was at minimum one scum on the Cheery wagon. Hellhound and pappums are two names that keep coming up as I read through, so at the present I'm considering the chances of scum within these two.

Unless Hellhound literally hangs himself in his next post, I'd be more comfortable with a Lupo lynch today.

Clearly if I wait for Hellhound the end will end without me voting for anyone.

VOTE: Lupo

But I would appreciate some prods.

If it comes down to the wire - within a few hours of the deadline - I'll hammer Hellhound as he is my #2 lynch.

Lupo lynch > bbstar lynch > Hellhound lynch.

And that's not even bringing the various flames of suspicion and WIFOM you've kept alive on me into it. See I have every reason to believe that if Cheery Dog or pappums rat had pursued me further with votes I'd be sure to find you in the background, handing out blessings to a wagon on me.

See how you slotted BBStar into the mix near the end of Day 1 and the beginning of Day 2? What that does is give you justification to support a wagon on him,

"Hey I've had my reasons to doubt that guy, here let me reference a few of my posts"

. You did the same to Lupo, drummed up some suspicion, concertina'd it back and forth and then finally put a vote down. Crucially you kept other people, like Hellhound, in the mix so your vote remains very flexible, it never leads and has to get wedged in place.

You're

the one that's been keeping distant and

you're

the one lining up lynches. I'm wondering where that motivation is coming from.

Do you want to see Lupo lynched or not?

This is the kind of question that bugs me. It assumes that because I find Lupo scummy, I can't question the opinion of players who want to lynch Lupo as well. Quite frankly, I don't know your role. I

should

be skeptical of your motives. If I feel that you're trying to get away with a half-assed policy lynch I'm going to call you out for it.

I want to see Lupo lynched, but you're missing the bigger picture if you think it's just policy. I brought this up in my #448. There's some policy in there, there's also anti-town and scummy sentiments in the mix. But the bigger picture is Lupo's flip is a melting pot of information waiting to be unleashed.

I

am

skeptical of your motives, I am questioning why you want to see Lupo lynched. There's no half-assed policy to it, it's about information. Is Lupo one scummy player, or is he a key to revealing scum?

[pieceofpecanpie]

Lupo is a good lynch regardless, but I'm not seeing how we get barrels full of information from lynching him over player X. Can someone elaborate on that point? PoPP first, then triangle.

A quick reply here, but off the bat I can think of a few reasons...

1. Lupo's insistence that Hellhound was town - thus staying off his wagon - has been contrasted by a number of his own actions.

eg. not calling for a counter lynch, lurking, not making it clear cut why we shouldn't have lynched Hellhound

Hellhound's flip does not indemnify Lupo, on the contrary it makes me wonder how deep the rabbit hole goes with Lupo's motives.

2. As a follow up to that last point, me thinks the rabbit hole could go

beyond

Lupo

eg. players such as Cheery Dog, Kublai Khan and killerjester

However, there is enough validation to lynch Lupo on his own merits and whether this may or may not instigate follow up questions in the next Day is yet to be seen. That does not mean I'm passively lining up lynches, I'm merely remarking that Lupo's flip is valuable in its own rights, but the potential for further information on other players to stem from his lynch is very real. That is a mixture of gut feeling and the next point...

3. Lupo was the Day 1 counter wagon to Hellhound. As a rule that could mean scum were voting Lupo (Kublai Khan, BBStar, killerjester). Lupo has also made various scummy/anti-town plays, mentioned - but not limited to - the points in 1., so there's a possibility he will and benefit to Lupo flipping either way.

My basic premise is that we nail scum, or find scum through Lupo.

[pieceofpecanpie]

NS clearly isn't reading the entire thread.

...And not making any attempt to hide it

Just blatantly half-arsed play.

Over here we call that being a shit bloke.

[pieceofpecanpie]

This game feels like a scum's paradise. basketballstar24, Nobody Special, pappums rat's slot, and pieceofpecanpie are all either dead weight or lynchbait. If scum aren't among those four then we are shot.

Explain your choices please. Or to be exact, explain what reasons you have for omitting the players not mentioned.

If you're going by informational benefits alone, Lupo is the better lynch today.

People not on Lupo's wagon heed this.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Unfortunately, as I've said before, a NS lynch would not really indicate anyone's alignment, because he is such a horrible player. Thus D3 would come and we'd still be in the exact same position we are today, minus a townie if the scum NK.

Minus two townie's depending on NS' flip. And I give him every chance of flipping town. He could be town, vig, scum, a raspberry-flavoured lollipop. Considering his level of contribution there is no telling what he is, and no leads for town the following day.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Do you want one?

[pieceofpecanpie]

CD, you seem to think Lupo is town. How so?

While the switch to NS was bad, I would say it's not indicative of alignment.

So he should have stuck with you and pushed for your lynch?

At that point in the game, everyone's attention was pretty much on me and my extensive reaction test, so I'm not actually sure how valid that part of the case against Lupo is.

Unless of course he was your buddy who was bussing and then when the unvotes started (not by Lupo) he saw more sense in jumping on an alternative wagon. That's one theory anyway...

As for the defence of hellhound which didn't exist, there was disagreement posted, and since the hellhound case didn't build up much more than what it was then, I'm also not sure how it indicates Lupo as scum.

There was plenty of deliberation on Hellhound, there is no certainty what was and wasn't scum driven, but if we play the old meta game we can assume that at least one scum was on the wagon and one scum off. Lupo's decision to wander off for over a week without making any inroads into why Hellhound wasn't a good lynch target is not something to be regarded as pro town. Along with some other circumstantial evidence it's not hard to consider Lupo as potential scum for hanging off the wagon, or at the very least scummy in his actions.

Thus I am having trouble seeing why Lupo is scum. He's in my leaning town category because he's being attacked for stuff I don't see which actually confirms him either way, by people I consider may be scum.

Tell me, why is NS scum?

Also, what do you mean Lupo is being attacked for stuff you don't see? Didn't you just begin with

"while the switch to NS was bad..."

? So you see things that are bad, but they don't indicate alignment? What does NS do that indicates his alignment?

Also, you think there are people you consider scum on Lupo's wagon. Have they had any association with NS or is there any information to gain from an NS lynch that would help confirm these people as scum? Is there more opportunity to go after these scummy players if NS flips?

[pieceofpecanpie]

Because he worked really really hard on it and no one's even said that they're going to put it up on the fridge door with magnets.

@Idiotking I'll re-read and get on that soon

[pieceofpecanpie]

@Idiotking Alright, I've read through your #486 a couple of times and am happy to comment on it a bit. There are no questions directed at me there, so I suppose I'll give a bit of an overall view.

On the whole it's a well written and articulate story, given - and I'm sure you'd happily agree to this - your somewhat lax involvement thus far it's appreciated that you would go to a bit of effort on analysing a few players. As such it could be a valuable reference down the track. (This was my initial impression when I first read it and didn't feel obligated to share that)

Do I agree with your assertion that I'm scummy? No, of course not, but I can't see anything wrong with the way you've exercised your opinion and the research you've done.

The was one particular thing you said that I found very interesting:

In reading pecanpie I've come to notice a general shift in his play ever since the pressure on 246. Beforehand he was distant, bouncy, and acted positive. Ever since he's been very defensive and angry. This is more of a feeling having read all of his posts in ISO though, so take it with a grain of salt.

That's a very astute observation you've made there. I'd say it's quite accurate.

I never admitted it, but pappum's calls for a vig to kill me really affected my attitude to the game. I felt sapped of enthusiasm, I felt I was putting in effort and that it got thrown back in my face in a negative way. Stupid of me to take it so heavy, but I did and it took some time to adjust.

Also, I'm certainly not blaming pappum's for causing that. I'm confident it was completely unintentional. The flaws I found were in my own gameplay, one big one is making a post like #246 without reminding myself that there is no double jeopardy in mafiascum. Therefore, there's every chance that the validity of my claim can be brought up at any point, even if a majority of players agreed to what it said about my alignment previously, there's no reason that can't be questioned later and rightfully so. I hung my own noose by readdressing it, and instead of icing on the cake for my post it became a magnet of suspicion. Or it could also have been a significant opportunity for scum to discredit me. But those are pieces of another story to come later. Either way, I set that in motion and I've adjusted my gameplay since to ensure that people don't have to just trust that I'm saying things for the right reasons. Hopefully they can see that for themselves.

[pieceofpecanpie]

And what happens now? No replacement and no deadline, but that's a lynch right?

[pieceofpecanpie]

Hmmm, the Lupo counter wagon is scum?

I'm going to start with...

VOTE: Cheery Dog

And I'll go for a bit of a reread and review - especially of Paschendale - and see if that gets me anywhere.

@killerjester So you're pretty town, yeah?

[pieceofpecanpie]

Oh while I think of it.

@Kublai Khan You've ignored my questions for elaborate thoughts and reasoning from yourself a number of times. I'd very much like to see a general set of reads of all players from you and elaboration where necessary. Thank you.

[pieceofpecanpie]

In light of what's been going on I'm inclined to agree on jester's scum pool. (Besides myself of course)

UNVOTE: Cheery Dog

Un momento por favor.

[pieceofpecanpie]

We're not starting this BBStar finger pointing again, are we?

[pieceofpecanpie]

What an odd post to make, Cheery. Who did you expect to be killed?

Un momento por favor.

Almost two days ago, what do you got? Whose scum? Top 2 or 3 list of suspects and why please?

Well I've had quite a busy time lately, but I've got some thoughts spinning round.

To be honest I've quite enjoyed shutting up for a bit and seeing what others have to say, without me feeling like I'm influencing things.

Tell me, your #596 read's like

"Lupo voted NS a bit, but NS didn't vote him back. I don't think NS busses his buddies. I'm gunna check."

Why then does the post look so big? Were you intent on exploring anything else? Oh wait, one other thing...

Cheery is my biggest town read based on the claim/lack of a counter claim.

How can anyone CC an unclear claim?

Anyway, so then your #599 is all like

"Yup he doesn't [does?] bus his buddies, and he doesn't post much. Checkmate!"

. So what was the point of all that (false) investigating? Needless to say I'm skeptical that the conclusion doesn't match up with the research.

[pieceofpecanpie]

What an odd post to make, Cheery. Who did you expect to be killed?

Someone who wasn't likely to be lynched the next day, or even me since I had outed via riddle that I had an even-night power.

wait I just pulled out a another non-normal role didn't I, seriously too much of that.

I think I'm trying to work out the motivation behind that NK too much.

Well yes I am sort of wondering why you weren't killed, but that doesn't help your cause too much. Since nothing was redirected we'll assume Paschendale was the target, right right?

However as part of my unexplained thoughts, which I am keeping super secret, you're not my lynch priority.

UNVOTE:

This I am okay with jester's decision excluding myself of course is scummy and I want you to do more than just blindly following town on likely town mislynches.

Uhhh, what exactly are you referencing here? Hellhound? Was that a likely town mislynch? Jester wasn't on that wagon. Am I okay with jester? I had a problem with jester for a while, I've changed my thoughts on him quite a bit, which would come through in some of my posts. What made you decide I'm okay with everything jester decides?

Can I get a list of things you feel you have influenced?

Well no I cannot provide an unequivocal list, I'm not omnipotent.

Two things that I feel had an impact (positive or negative or both) was my claim, and I wanted Lupo lynched Day 2. In some ways I can gauge that influence by noting that people have responded to posts I made on either of those subjects, which I can speculate influenced their own thoughts both on my alignment and on lynching Lupo.

What I was trying to express, since I've been active from the beginning of the game, was that it's nice to get a different perspective on discussion in this game.

ie. a fly on the wall, rather than a member of a boardroom

I wasn't making or preparing to boast about some big impact I was making in the game or take credit for all things wonderful.

He claimed even night cop, right? I assume if he was lying a real cop would have come forward. So yes, a lack of a CC here on D3 has me believing him and putting him as my #1 town read. Why does this bother you?

Doesn't bother me. I asked a question. Your answer's fine. No complaints here.

[pieceofpecanpie]

@Mod

Can Kublai Khan get a prod?

[pieceofpecanpie]

This I am okay with jester's decision excluding myself of course is scummy and I want you to do more than just blindly following town on likely town mislynches.

Uhhh, what exactly are you referencing here?

In light of what's been going on I'm inclined to agree on jester's scum pool. (Besides myself of course)

(more importantly, if you are the only scum in this group, sure I'd expect you to agree on jester's scum pool as long as it isn't yourself)

What made you decide I'm okay with everything jester decides?

Not saying that you are okay with everything jester decides, just saying that your willingness to follow him so easily without any scumhunting feels like scum who has 3 town targets to pick from is all.

And why no vote?

Also, why did you say early in the game that as a miller, you were okay being lynched before LyLo, but then were so anti being vigged N1 like my predecessor suggested? Wouldn't a night vig on a guaranteed non doc/cop/etc N1 be a better use than 1) a random shot with little information and 2) wasting a lynch just prior to LyLo on a claimed miller?

[pieceofpecanpie]

EBWOP

Woot, total fail on that quote session... Take 2:

And why no vote?

I know, I know... it's coming

Also, why did you say early in the game that as a miller, you were okay being lynched before LyLo, but then were so anti being vigged N1 like my predecessor suggested? Wouldn't a night vig on a guaranteed non doc/cop/etc N1 be a better use than 1) a random shot with little information and 2) wasting a lynch just prior to LyLo on a claimed miller?

That's not a bad point and I don't necessarily disagree, but the motive behind your slot for suggesting so is where I had the problem.

What's your take on it being such a pertinent point to make Day 1?

[pieceofpecanpie]

I always seem to be run up as scummy. Yes, I've been busy and haven't gotten to this game lately, and for that, I'm sorry. I should be able to participate more frequently now.

Urghhh, I'll believe it when I see it.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Sooo, Idiotking - I Am Innocent scum team yeah?

VOTE: Idiotking

[pieceofpecanpie]

Nobody hammers until [...]
2) PecanPie gives his reads on every player

Nobody Special - Null or perhaps town by virtue of being counter wagon to scum

basketballstar24 - VI

pieceofpecanpie - Town miller

I Am Innocent - Probable scum

Melmond - Probable town, claimed innocent result by Cheery Dog

killerjester - Probable town, bussing his scumbuddy from Day 1? I think not

triangle123 - Null

Cheery Dog - Probable town, claimed PR - a claim I am believing at this point

Idiotking - Probable scum

Kublai Khan - Null

In summation there's a shrinking scum pool, of which Idiotking belongs to, and I think he makes an excellent lynch candidate. There's a couple of nulls in my books that have either kept their noses clean or kept their noses elsewhere (lurking), which may enlarge the pool to 4, possibly 5, scummy players at a stretch.

However, Idiotking's posts have been reading like

scum caught

and I Am Innocents attempts to dredge up any other talking point, tidbit or suspicion read like a scumbuddy choosing to distract rather than bus.

[pieceofpecanpie]

UNVOTE:

PoPP, who are the scum?

VOTE: I Am Innocent

Still an easy second choice.

A brief rundown so far:

• Avoided Idiotking's wagon - my initial guess was not bussing his buddy - but make that future town points ahoy for not being on a PR mislynch
  
  Creates some shoddy reasoning for jumping on NS wagon, as mentioned earlier here:
  

  Tell me, your #596 read's like

  "Lupo voted NS a bit, but NS didn't vote him back. I don't think NS busses his buddies. I'm gunna check."

  Why then does the post look so big? Were you intent on exploring anything else?
  
  Anyway, so then your #599 is all like

  "Yup he doesn't [does?] bus his buddies, and he doesn't post much. Checkmate!"

  . So what was the point of all that (false) investigating? Needless to say I'm skeptical that the conclusion doesn't match up with the research.

  
  
  Keeps asking people for reads and poking a bit of pointless suspicion around, but if you break down I Am Innocent's posts he's actually just endorsing a mislynch on Idiotking while keeping a weak vote on NS with a paperthin case
  

  My thoughts, I am pretty sure one of NS and bbstar are scum, likely NS.
  Regarding the hellhound lynch, I would say pecanpie is the most likely scum, if not him maybe

  idiotking

  . Triangle is town.
  Cheery is my biggest town read based on the claim/lack of a counter claim.
  

  
  

  My guess, scum is just messing with town. For this very reason. MOI likes to do that, which means we could have solid scum players. If this was a just WTH lets mess with them NK, look for the scum to be someone who starts the day off saying, why did scum do this, they must not be paying attention.

  (idiotking???)

  
  

  
  This is coming from someone who says "
  You do know it is scum that likes to discredit town right?
  " Well it looks to me as if he's been discrediting Idiotking while staying safely off the wagon.
  
  Secondary discrediting target has been myself - I follow whatever killerjester says, I don't scumhunt, I don't post reads, I don't put down votes, I don't encourage vigs to kill me night one etc. etc. - which has all felt like a bit of mudslinging without substance. The empty questions cum statements seem to stop when I ask something like

  What's your take on it being such a pertinent point to make Day 1?

  
  The miller fluff ended there and it was straight back to asking for reads.

I Am Innocent would make a great lynch, someone who acts all smarmy over something small...

then it's NS, BBS

and/

or possibly IAI?

Fixed your post.

This implies the whole team of scum is not paying attention. Which is just off because 1) NS as scum pays very close attention, he just lurks like there's no tomorrow and 2) I take pride in my scum play, having had 2 or 3 perfect scum wins myself. I don't miss stuff as scum, but nice try to anyone who wants to pretend like I would as scum.

My guess, scum is just messing with town. For this very reason. MOI likes to do that, which means we could have solid scum players. If this was a just WTH lets mess with them NK, look for the scum to be someone who starts the day off saying, why did scum do this, they must not be paying attention. (idiotking???)

...but in the next breath fingers Idiotking while having a vote thrown down on NS over some imaginative meta is clearly missing the town picture.

Looking at who his buddy may be, I'd start here

Triangle is town.

[pieceofpecanpie]

@PecanPie, are you saying that I am scum and that I knew IdiotKing was a town power role and purposely avoided his wagon as such? Lot of hoops there to jump thru, just want to make sure that is the point you are really making...

No, I'm saying you're scum and knew Idiotking was town. If you want to fill in some more blanks for me go ahead, or is that what you just did?

Tell me this though, what justified your vote on NS as opposed to Idiotking?

Also regarding this: "What's your take on it being such a pertinent point to make

Day 1

?" I thought it was obvious that I did. Scum have a survivalist mentality. You showed that as such after starting off the day so "noble" by saying that you should be lynched before LyLo. Yet as soon as someone suggested taking you out, it was like 'no, wait, anything but that'. So yes I found/find it pretty pertinent.

Can you try again? I've underlined the important bit.

[pieceofpecanpie]

@Idiotking Am I reading your #673 correctly? Melmond's essentially confirmed town with your Night 1 protection and Cheery's investigation claim.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Señor Ockham is on your side.

So the following people are excused...

• Melmond
  killerjester
  Cheery Dog
  Idiotking

These members of class may have some poor grades, but aren't the trouble makers...

• Nobody Special - Twice a counter wagon to Lupo, early Day 1 and Day 2, and they're buddies? That's rare
  basketballstar24 - This guy just doesn't smell right for scum, VI more likely

The following should report to the principals office immediately...

• I Am Innocent
  Triangle123
  Kublai Khan

If class is in favour of an I Am Innocent wagon, please raise their hands and vote.

[pieceofpecanpie]

VOTE: triangle123

This one's scum. I promise.

Well yes, but, but... his buddy? No?

[pieceofpecanpie]

There is none as such, a promise from killerjester that he is and I made some conjecture towards him being scum on the previous page.

On the other hand, you could read through the thread, do ISOs or think independently rather than asking for things to be spoonfed. I mean you want everyone to read your post when you feel it's important to look at and be heard. Treat others with the same respect and read through their shit. Read through Triangle/CES, in your opinion is he currently bussing his buddy?

And although I'm mildly annoyed at you Idiotking, I want to bitchslap NS right now.

@CES Your slot made a prod dodge with added promise of reads. Will you be fulfilling that promise? Or could you explain why you believe I Am Innocent is the recipient of your vote and not anyone else?

[pieceofpecanpie]

I do appreciate that killerjester actually just gave his reasons rather than getting all snooty and condescending.

I think that's an overstatement of what I was doing, but whatever.

For what it's worth, sorry if you thought I was being dickish. I didn't mean to come off like that.

[pieceofpecanpie]

@Idiotking I would really appreciate your thoughts on my question.

Read through Triangle/CES, in your opinion is he currently bussing his buddy?

[pieceofpecanpie]

@I Am Innocent You must have a lot of faith in your twisted representation of me in #717, since you backed it with a... Oh... You didn't vote... Well my response to your post, in the form of a quote, is:

You do know it is scum that likes to discredit town right? Why did you post that unless you are sure I am scum? Or are you putting out feelers to see if anyone else bites before you vote for me. If you're going to attack me, show a pair and vote me already.

Also, you should claim.

Read through Triangle/CES, in your opinion is he currently bussing his buddy?

For CES, until he posts more, I have no idea. As I said, I don't think Triangle/CES is necessarily scum. I have an overall null read of Triangle.

I can only think someone is bussing if I assume that they are scum.

That's a rather loaded question.

Well yes, the underlined bit did show that you understood some element of the questions loading. Think of it as me asking

"A. Is Triangle/CES scum? B. Is I Am Innocent scum? and C. What do you think of Triangle/CES' action (the vote on IAI)?"

So I'm still interested in hearing something about this. Why do you have an overall null read and what are your thoughts on B and C?

@Kublai Khan You're happy to put someone at L-1 with a protracted promise of reasons to come?

FoS

@ Kublai

[pieceofpecanpie]

UNVOTE:

Yo IAI, if what you're saying is true then my updated read list goes as such.

(So the following people are excused...)

• Melmond
  killerjester
  Cheery Dog
  Idiotking
  I Am Innocent
  triangle123

People of interest, but I'm as yet unsure of...

• Nobody Special -
  (Twice a counter wagon to Lupo, early Day 1 and Day 2, and they're buddies? That's rare)
  
  basketballstar24 -
  (This guy just doesn't smell right for scum, VI more likely)

And my sole remaining scum possibility from this process of elimination.

• Kublai Khan

VOTE: Kublai Khan

KK also comes off as scummy as he pushed NS earlier all game, yet comes in and goes on the counterwagon (mine).

I agree (as was told with my FoS), I didn't like the opportunistic move one bit. It didn't role with KK's motives when he threw that vote down and excused himself from inventing one till some later convenient point. Convenient for him that is, but totally reckless as townplay, which he ain't as far as I'm concerned.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Was the entire fucking Hellhound wagon town?.

I know, yeah. Something isn't quite right...

I started re-reading things as soon as the claim was made, because now my list is ... But the vote stays, it's solid either way. Either elimination has successfully cornered someone - with plenty of scummy moves from them to boot - or someone's lying, or both.

[pieceofpecanpie]

But who was trying to mislynch Hellhound then? A godfather triangle?

A godfather Melmond is also possible, although it doesn't wash with the doc/no kill business. I'm inclined to believe the roleclaims, so the first place to look skeptically is the results.

Hellhound always looked like he was going to be the lynch when I was reading it.

Yeah, this is true in the sense that Hellhound didn't lend himself much to the discussion, and his replacement was... But does this mean you find it possible the whole wagon was town driven?

[pieceofpecanpie]

A godfather Melmond is also possible, although it doesn't wash with the doc/no kill business. I'm inclined to believe the roleclaims, so the first place to look skeptically is the results.

Melmond doesn't feel like scum to me.

As far as I can see, I believe you're right.

I've looked at Melmond's play, particularly around the Lupo wagon, and although I was annoyed at the time that he wasn't reaching the same conclusions I was, I don't see where he's trying to bunk the Lupo wagon as KK suggests. I can look at other players posts and have the same sentiment. Hell, I can get annoyed at the things I've said as well, but that feeling isn't the key to alignment. Based on the way KK dismisses triangle's slot from suspicion and concentrates on Melmond, I find triangle/CES a much more interesting slot to look at.

[pieceofpecanpie]

I have a feeling you're scum through elimination and your lurking behaviour.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Is there a case on me that I can respond to, or is it just nothing but POE, lurking-poaching, and "feelings"?

Since my initial facetious response didn't seem to tickle your funny bone I have an overall comment to make on your recent posts (especially #753), which I would also like others to read as me cementing my reasons for why Kublai Khan is the best lynch for today.

Apart from opening your large post with some AtE, your main excuse seems to be laziness. You had reads and thoughts, but couldn't find time or were too lazy to put them forward, and so parked your vote on NS for the majority of the game and - if I'm understanding this correctly - offer a flimsy backdoor argument to why it should've been on IAI.

Then at the beginning of Day 2, pappums rat mae culpa'd and listed his reads with triangle123 as top town with no reasoning. I read that as a soft-cop claim and that's when I skidded off having this game in hand. Whether it was legit or a fakeclaim, I had to let it play out and not call attention to it. So my top suspect at the time was off the table and I needed to re-read and generate new reads. But as aformentioned I lacked the time to do so.

Once you move to the re-read section of your post, you seem to clear IAI entirely on account of his claim and make no further attempt to explain why you hastily put him at L-1 in the first place.

So let's look at your vote:

I'm down with an I Am Innocent lynch today.

vote: I Am Innocent (L-1)

Reasons tomorrow.

Firstly,

reasons

denote multiple ones and you've barely managed one. Some idea about exploring the legitimacy of a soft cop claim in #359 that you never got around to? And this is justification for your "

yes, let's lynch him

" vote? Also worth noting that this was the main point IAI used to defend his claim, so I'm extremely skeptical on you having any thoughts towards #359 to begin with.

Secondly, in #753 you shy away from your vote by concentrating on delivering reads on other players. It's a pleasant summary and all, but what I really want to hear was why you did what you did? Why should I believe you? And how can you explain it as a townie action? I don't think you've satisfied any of these reasons. Your motivation remains murky, and rehashing some reads and conjecture of other players feels like an effort to distract rather than be useful.

Thirdly, you use the word laziness to describe yourself, but I find your latest burst of activity anything but lazy. This is in contrast to NS who gets ridiculed for his activity levels and then makes no effort to hide the sheer token nature of an appearance. Amazingly, he has not slipped up like you have. And that is what I am putting to you, Kublai Khan, your vote was an opportunistic lynch attempt that became a scummy slip and your recent burst of posts are not for the sake of benefiting town, but for the sake of saving yourself.

Lastly, in the vein of that previous statement, your large response made no recommendations for who scum are or who town should be focusing on. For all your words the end result is not a rallying roar pointing at the true scum, it is a helpless and subjective whisper. It gets us nowhere, and a townie under voting pressure shouldn't go down so quietly, keeping scum reads in a shroud of mysticism from the rest of town isn't right.

That's why I'm saying that you, Kublai Khan, are scum, and I encourage those who aren't voting him already to help lynch this guy.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Scum probably

was

on the Hellhound wagon, in the form of triangle/CES as godfather. But lynch KK first, kk?

[pieceofpecanpie]

Have you got short term memory?

Hopefully all those who have town reads on pecanpie and NS can now see them in a little better light. Esp if you see my wagon and IK's wagon as town wagons, which is the one that kept stalling at 4 votes (NS) and who was on the other 2 wagons but not NS's (Pecanpie)

KK also comes off as scummy as he pushed NS earlier all game, yet comes in and goes on the counterwagon (mine).

It has to be one of these three players today

You said it's either me, NS or KK.

What's wrong with KK? It's a good wagon.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Son of a gun, I could've sworn KK would be scum.

And Idiotking fakeclaimed doc to save his own arse?

So this bullshit about protecting Melmond night 1 is bunk?

Without breaking my brain over what hypothetically took place Night 1, I'd say I've boiled down to BBstar and NS. Out of the two I'm happier with NS, since BBstar still seems VI. They're essentially the only people, besides myself, without the benefit of a PR claim or result from a PR to back them and are the scummiest looking of the bunch. I take it killerjester wasn't protected Night 2 either, and if anyone has anything enlightening to say over the Idiotking flip I'd love to hear it.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Very nice claim, easy enough for anyone to make. Especially since you just happen to have blocked the only scum that's flipped so far on N1.

If there's a CC out there, please come forward, I'll only take NS seriously if there's no choice.

[pieceofpecanpie]

That's not really a useful answer though, is it? Are you holding onto your reads again?

[pieceofpecanpie]

NS, say something god damnit you're on television, you're live to the whole world.

[pieceofpecanpie]

I don't like that claim, NS. You didn't even have to put effort in to fake that, but your gameplay Day 2 shows you weren't interested in Lupo until the wagon grew big.

So why do you think IAI would be lying?

[pieceofpecanpie]

VOTE: Cogito

[pieceofpecanpie]

You probably should've pointed out how your slot has already been investigated.

That's the obvious defence.

But you're Godfather, so what do you care about cops.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Not really, no.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: BBStar

[pieceofpecanpie]

Hmmm, wish I hadn't read that business until the mod popped in to confirm all this talk...

[pieceofpecanpie]

(What rock solid arguments were they?

1 is cop claim right? The other?)

Anyway, I'm not interested in having some back and forth about it unless you feel like making some sort of constructive feedback out of it. You can get the fuck off your high horse because I applied myself in this game and have no problem admitting my mistakes, and learning from them, but I'm not going to feel ashamed or stupid for trying.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Thanks for the game everyone. Thanks for modding Chaos.

I must say that for the most part I enjoyed it.

I thought there was some very good play and some not so good play, but not too much of either, and that helps with learning from mistakes and from the good stuff.

Personally, I was disappointed in my own early game. I think probably 1 in every 2 posts from Day 1 I would go back and rewrite completely. Also, I am still kicking myself for taking an idea of "confirmed town" way too far. Apart from that I thought there were some good town performances by killerjester and Cheery Dog (and Pappum's while he was still here was a good player). I'm both confused and surprised by the scumplay. Confused at things like the no kill, their heavy bussing and some other stuff. And surprised that it ended relatively cleanly for town. I picture a little more of a push or prod of suspicion on a different mislynch could've completely upset how things ended. I thought Idiotking's fakeclaim off of the no kill N1 was an amazing move, although you were a bit flaky early on, that claim in itself was impressive.

Thanks again for the game everyone.

[pieceofpecanpie]

Not to answer for Chaos, but I am under the impression it's pretty standard.

I've been in a bunch of games where that's been the case.