Mini 1400(!): Bubble Tape Mafia - It's Over!

[Dave168]

I note that when I picked up my PM saying game had started, there were 4 players remaining unconfirmed (including myself). This is my 3rd online game, and I am happy to take the stance that mafia could be found chatting and remain unconfirmed slightly longer. (Quite shortly I hope to reaquaint myself with how to hyperlink to the appropriate wiki article.)

The players were (quoting from screenshot taken at time, which I don't seem to be able to upload):
3: Leonshade
6: MaverickMaestro
9: SafetyDance.
11: Dave168

SafetyDance has posted only 5 times in total on the site, so I eagerly await some actual content. I don't self-vote, so Dave is out (for me).

I have no problem believing that MaverickMaestro is scummier out of the two remaining. Better join the wagon then.

vote: MaverickMaestro

[Dave168]

@AngryPidgeon: Are you buddying me? How can you say "obv"?

@Leonshade: Why were you late to confirm?

@SafetyDance: Are you planning to participate much?

[Dave168]

@MM: I have to start somewhere. Its better than wasting time on "all your base belong to me". What are you doing that's scum hunting? Nothing. Vote stands.

@AngryPidgeon: in addition I'd like more explanation on how Cyber is scum, just from post 11. What's obvious to you is less so to me. Also, I'm not sure I can stand the "d" in pidgeon for this whole game, I may have to abbreviate.

[Dave168]

Every time I type there is a new comment with a new response required. Here goes:

@AP: Some people seem to have started in RVS, but others don't seem to have ever been in RVS. I'd rather people voted for a reason, than for a joke. For me, I voted MM due to his useless first post and also his lateness in confirming. I'm guessing that Thor voted him for only the first of those two reasons, which does not seem scummy to me.

Also, JFSF may not be town

@JSFS: One word post so far? Lurking.

@Kush: I don't like post 24. It may not be dumb to lynch you.

@Safety: I have looked up 3 people's old posts, those people I listed. I have not yet read them thoroughly since I have a day job, but have meanwhile assumed that you are more of a noob that the others, with only 5 posts.

@zipper: Huggles?? Are you hugging anyone this game?

[Dave168]

@D3x: Care to comment?

@DoubleJD, Devourer359: Are you playing?

[Dave168]

@AP(post 54): Yes, I normally talk to everyone. Anyone can be scum. Why do you want to "buddy Thor instead"? Is that usual? I've only played 2 games, but I don't remember buddying being a positive thing. And I don't think you are scummy for giving Jake a town-read, just wrong.

(post 56) From obv-town to scum. At least you don't seem to know who the scum are, that is a positive sign for you. As for me, I like to run up against a few people, and indeed, see where it goes.

(Post 58) re post 24 from kush: it is pretty scummy, however he looks also like a noob. It could certainly warrant a vote though. (Again, I've been away for 4 hours and am now catching up with all the new posts, typing as I go.)

[Dave168]

@Kush - if you're town you could do better than give up. Why not fight back? It could be fun. For me, I like to hunt scums, it is very interesting and fun. Although I'd be happy to lynch you in your current state, it would be a heck of a lot better for the game and for day 1 if you showed a bit of backbone.

[Dave168]

Haha, yeah this is our lynch.

But Kush says its a bad lynch for town? And he sounds like he means it. As far as I can see you are the second on the wagon, and the wiki says that scum are often second on the wagon. My vote stands.

@Dave

- in your 3 previous games, did Scum use this tactic? Why is MM scummier than the other 2? Why didn't you mention Leon in your reasoning, you mentioned Safety...

@Dave

- Why wait until p14 to ask Leon, you brought this un in p9? What do you hope to gain with your question to Safety? Do you believe we were still in RVS?

I saw the "confirm delay" being scum tell in the wiki. I decided to use it at the start of this game, hence saving the screenshot during confirmation. It has not been used in my 2 previous games by town or scum.
MM is scummier due to his first post. I have not forgotten the others. I have mentioned Leon in both posts (9, 14) you refer to, if you will check. I ask Safety a question, I ask Leon a question, as I see fit, to find out more. If my questions are not to your liking, I am not too bothered. And of course we are not in RVS, see post 50.

[Dave168]

So the team is probably Dex/Dave/Thor? Or is that too obvioius?

Who are you asking to confirm this? I'm really not sure I can be confident about a single scum, let alone three.

@AngryPidgeon: Are you buddying me? How can you say "obv"?

This post rubs me wrong. The phrasing of the question is really pointed.

It was meant to be. I speak my mind. I was concerned that you had painted me as "obvtown" for insubstantial reasons, and that you were actually a scum trying to buddy me. That was a while ago. Right now, what bothers me is that you have moved your vote several times, and seem to be often changing your mind. Do you or don't you know who the scum is? (I don't know!)
I seem to have reached WIFOM so I will now end this post.

[Dave168]

So the team is probably Dex/Dave/Thor? Or is that too obvioius?

AP, although you have conceded only 2 out of 3 might be scum, has it occurred to you that your "scum" are the people who are frequently posting at that time? With 13 players, I doubt that 2 or 3 scums can be found in the roughly half of players who were active posters at the time.

A lot of your play is highly speculative and convoluted; although you look like you are hunting scums, my limited thinking and posting time would probably be better spent talking to other people, after I have finished dealing with the current round of questions.

[Dave168]

Who are you asking to confirm this? I'm really not sure I can be confident about a single scum, let alone three.

Im asking Dunhamganger obviously. And ya Im pretty confident at least 2 of you are.

Wouldn't me changing my mind a lot be indicative that I in fact DON'T know who the scum are?

Well Im now listing you as obvscum. So Im scummy for everything I'm currently doing, despite past things becoming no longer scumy? MMMMhmmmmm. Tell me more, scumbag168.

Read on Thor? He is avtively trying to discredit me in his posts, confirm/deny?

I was hoping for you to scumslip and reveal that you did in fact know who the other scums are. Or to scumslip and get a "friend" to agree with you on something, perhaps to identify two scums. It appears you did not do so.

Since you continuously change your vote, you might be trying to investigate everyone systematically like I am. That would be good. Or it might indicate you don't know who scums are. That is good, you would be town then. Or you could be faking it, pretending to not know who scums are. That would be bad. So really I don't know what to think about you for sure.

I will read back through and try and get a feel for Thor and interactions with you and others. Right now I've not had time to concentrate on it. There are approx 20 days left of Day 1, and I'm sure it can wait a few RL days. But as I said, many things are far more convoluted than I am used to, including Thor-AP interactions; I'm more used to drawing straightforward deductions from plain facts, rather than several layers of WIFOM reasoning. But maybe I will be able to draw a definite conclusion.

[Dave168]

@Dave p101 - In your OP {p9} you said you wouldn't self vote, Safety had only posted 5 times on site, and that you found MM 'the scummier of the other two'. In your reasons, you didn't mention Leon. I am curious why.

I really have already dealt with this, but lets lay it to rest:

I have no problem believing that MaverickMaestro is scummier

out of the two remaining

. Better join the wagon then.

Leon was the other out of the two remaining. At the time I had an extra reason to vote for MM than for Leon.

@Leonshade: Why were you late to confirm?

I still await an answer to this question. Its still less than 1 day RL. Anyway, although I was happy to wagon MM, I had never forgotten about Leon. Anyone who says I had forgotten is twisting the evidence, which is scummy.

[Dave168]

OK, something I don't get:

Sheeping: mentioned posts 29 (by zipper), 78 (AngryPidgeon), 141 (AngryPidgeon).
Sheeping being stupid: posts 52 (Jake from State Farm), 57 (MaverickMaestro).

Either sheeping is good, or it is bad. I'd assume that anyone who says something like "do what I do because I'm doing it" should not automatically be believed. Is that not what sheeping is? As soon as someone mentions sheep, does it somehow become a positive thing?

@Zipper or AP, are JFSF, MM wrong?
@JFSF, MM: are Zipper, AP wrong?

[Dave168]

In depth analysis later when I've got time, right now its looking like some time Thursday.

[Dave168]

@Leon: Thanks for a straightforward answer in your first post.

Just a note. I just finished reading the thread, and I probably won't have time to comment on anything today.

@Devourer: I probably wouldn't vote for you, if you looked intent on being a bit more helpful in your first post.

vote: Devourer359

[Dave168]

@Devourer: So you had time to read the entire thread to that point, but not any time to actually say anything beyond a one line note?

@MM: Recently I read a game which was won by a scum complaining of tiredness, overwork, kids to look after... you can see how your response could be interpreted in more than one way?

[Dave168]

I offended you? Is this elementary school? Do we need to sit in a circle holding hands talking about feelings?

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. If you get offended because somebody doesn't like your playstyle go talk to a therapist.

This conversation is pointless.

Although I will go back and read a lot of AP/Thor exchange, and look for a deeper understanding of this game in general, the word "pointless" does seem to cover the AP/Thor exchange reasonably well, to my current level of understanding... Not sure there are any nuggets to mine there... time will tell.

[Dave168]

Dave, are you on Thor's team?

No, are you?

[Dave168]

EBWOP - I read that question as "scum team".

[Dave168]

Really misleadingly phrased question AP. What kind of good for scumhunting is that? As you can see, I think and ask questions in a straightforward manner...

Do you know Thor's team? Does he have even have a "team"? Does town count as a team, since they don't know who each other are? Was this kind of WIFOM your intention?

[Dave168]

@Cyber: I'm happy to analyse my overly quick response, considering me, AP and Thor from various scum/town points of view.

All I'll say now is that me saying "No, are you?" to "Dave, are you on Thor's team?" is consistent with a townie meaning to imply "no of course i'm not scum, why are you even asking?" to AP, who previously had been filling several pages with waffling posts. Due to his verbosity I felt dismissive of the question at the time, and I posted without considering that his question was probably loaded. Hence the edits by afterthought.

FOS: AP

for asking a misleading and loaded question, which when answered will not provide clear answers to the town, and probably fill several more pages with waffle which does little to scum hunt. I'm not sure analysing this exchange further is particularly helpful to town, but I will do so if pushed to it.

Guys, i have no idea whats going on. Someone pressure me or something.

OK. I like voting inactive or unhelpful players.

Vote: DoubleJD

[Dave168]

@kush: its not scummy to ask questions that are hard to answer. it is scummy to ask questions which are i) loaded ii) the meaning is not clear (does it mean any team? scum team? does town count as a team? etc) and iii) which when answered will muddy the waters rather than help identify scum. hence FOS

[Dave168]

Interim response - I promised something more substantial by the end of Thursday (it is now 830am here).

Unvote: AP
Vote: Dave

Why do you keep your reasoning to yourself? I object to AP's habit of filling pages, but... nothing?

misleading and loaded question

Lol? It wasn't a multiple choice test FFS. You could have said "Im town." Or. "I don't know". Or. "I don't understand the question"

But you were in a flurry to answer it and you seem to care an awful lot about how your answer is perceived. Which is scummy.

Cyber/Zipper are my top town reads.
MM/Jake/Kushmasta/SD's-replacement are moderate town reads.

VOTE: Dave
I like where this wagon is going. Dave's starts by giving a meh answer, but then immediately feels the need to clarify it. And then he accuses me of setting him up after that. And to fulfill the self-fulfilling prophecy I am now voting Dave for his response to my question.

Eh, Thor might be town. Still doubt it. But d3x/DoubleJD are both making me

Fine. I get it. I look for scum slips, and give what looks like a scum slip. How ironic.

I've read further down the thread and am seeing some hilarious stuff, e.g. post 248 kushm4sta, where he waited until some big shots start voting me before really pressing into me; compare this with the two previous posts after my error; post 201, post 227. Now everybody claims to know exactly what i "meant" in earlier posts. Also AP - you are waaaaay off. MM - you're still probably scum, were you afraid to vote me in post 232? Generally speaking, love seeing the reinterpretation of my motives in everything I've ever said to be scummy. Lol to drawing conclusions from first post of the day... think again, good townies out there. You now have a large body of evidence produced by my folly, and will probably find scum on the wagon, or lurking in the background sniping.

I'm not a big shot around MS, and I guess success day 1 for town or for scum would involve playing well and not doing a stupid thing. So I made an error. So I posted twice more because I was upset of not playing well to my win condition, of looking like I'd given a vague answer, an answer that if I hadn't posted to clarify would probably be twisted by a scum. So it bother folks that I correct myself. I'll defend myself, because only the scum minority would benefit if I didn't.

I'll proceed with the more substantial analysis of early day 1, and probably won't post again until its complete.

[Dave168]

@Jake - I can answer those quickly:

This is my third game, my first two were newbies a few years ago. Since I'm a bit rusty, I decided to learn as much as I can from the wiki before the game. http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... mmon_Tells was one page I read. An article caught my eye: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... sane_Tells. Here is a tell about confirmation. Its not considered particularly reliable, but was a better basis for voting IMO than purely random. That, along with MM's first post not actually appearing to scum hunt, was my basis for voting which you can see in my first post.

Another tell (which has been alluded to in this thread) is claiming to be town. Some people call it a scum tell. Others don't. All I can do is show you a link to my second game where an exchange with Sensfan put me off claiming to be town unless I can prove I'm town to everyone. Here it is: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p1851799. In confirmation there was a list of 13 names, 9 of which has * by them (confirmed). For accuracy sake, I included myself in the list of 4 unconfirmed (without *) since that was what my screenshot showed. But of course I wouldn't vote for myself. I chose "I don't self-vote" over "I'm not scum" since the second is claiming to be town, and the first is just common sense for anyone.

[Dave168]

@Jake: Yes, I had data, but where did I say or imply that my data was reliable? I don't recall doing so. No townie as far as I'm aware can have reliable data Day 1.

Also, if someone joins a wagon, surely its better that they have any reason (reliable or otherwise) rather than sheeping someone else? Earlier I questioned the value of sheeping, i.e. I think its probably a bad reason for doing something.

Finally - I gave two reasons for voting MM when I did so (1. late confirmation, 2. bad first post) and neither of these was because he already had a wagon on him. Most players join a wagon in any given game to get the pressure on someone and the info out. I have no problem joining wagons, but would prefer to do so for my own reasons, which at this stage are the only ones I can be certain about.

[Dave168]

@Jake: answer the question. Where did I say my data is reliable?

[Dave168]

Why do you keep your reasoning to yourself? I object to AP's habit of filling pages, but... nothing?

That's the best way to bus.

(My post 304 was in response to your vote for me, which had no specific reason attached.) Thor you're as reticent as AP is verbose. But your answer in 314 is so non-specific as to be meaningless. Who is bussing? You for being quiet? AP for filling pages? me for <something, please insert reason here>?

[Dave168]

@Jake: no who is Jonin?

Given 12 other people, a random vote (assuming by a townie) has P=<number of scums>/12 chance of hitting scum, for example if we have 3 scums in total there is a 3/12=1/4 chance of hitting scum at random.

Voting on the basis of a reason, no matter how spurious, can't lower the perceived chance of hitting scum below random (e.g. 1/4), but stands the chance of raising it significantly above random (perhaps to 50:50, maybe even higher). Data on day 1 can't be completely reliable. Where exactly is your problem with using unreliable data for a vote? And I have no idea what an illegitimate vote could be, so your word "legitimate" seems spurious.

[Dave168]

Thor engaging in pointless side-arguments is scummy AND a scumtell. Thor/Kthx/Dave. Woooo

@AP: Do you know the precise number of scum in this game? Do you know how many scum teams? I am about to re-read all 15 pages, but I don't recall seeing that information anywhere. If I've missed it, would be glad for the link.

[Dave168]

@Thor: I'm almost happier to vote for a lurker than for another scum tell. Scum tells can often be explained in more than one way, but voting lurkers is hitting either useless town or lurking scum - win:win. And if lurkers are voted, they might start contributing and become good towners.

[Dave168]

Also I still want to lynch Dave. He's jumping on this lurker thing out of no where..with no specifics just general info about the virtues of lynching lurkers.

Look at the people I have been voting for specifics.

Does being at L-x preclude me from carrying on any other conversation?

[Dave168]

@AP: I'd like to know how its "provably" 3 scums, but I'm struggling to read through 15 pages so was expecting someone else to pick up on that.
@Jake: are you in a rush? town has x RL weeks to go before deadline. there is no way I can name "top 2 scums" without reading properly.

[Dave168]

EPWOP - @AP - sorry didnt see your edit. Yes, how is it "probably" 3 scums?

[Dave168]

OK there's no way i can do a full read through tonight, its gonna have to be weekend for that. My initial thoughts on pages 1 to 4 are that the "RVS" stage was played partly random, partly not. AP asked me a question about whether I thought Thor was scummy. Its still a bit above my head, however if saying "I'm town" is a scum tell, Thor did that tacitly with his statistics quotation. But other think its null, we all have to act town in any case. I've been told both ways, so if its a tell its not a big one.

My top scum suspects - for me its going to be those who lurk. Also those who are clearly less experienced at playing Mafiascum look scummy in comparison to others, but what else should I expect? At the moment, I'm still happy to vote for anyone who does not say very much. "Activity Overview" at the bottom of the page is my guide for that.

[Dave168]

So dave, what you're saying is that so far on day one, you're biggest scum reads are on those who aren't posting vice all the scummy posts throughout these 15 pages? Obviously you aren't going to agree with the case on you, but d3x made a solid case on Cyber in p244 that you haven't mentioned your thoughts on. I read this as you saying you'd prefer a PL at this time over any players actively posting. I don't understand the 'lurkers are scummier than cases on active players' mentality you have. PL's rarely turn up scum in my experience so I don't understand why town-you would be happy to vote for it. Do those lurking need to catch up, absolutely, but that doesn't make them more scummy than active players making scummy posts?

True, some posts by active players could be construed as scummy. I'm not sure I can tell the difference as well as some other people. Consider my voting for lurkers and unhelpful players a differentiation in voting style, and that the town will need to do both things to catch scum.

[Dave168]

Could you explain why I'm scum again AP?

This is a semi reliable scumtell too. Asking why you are scum.
P-edit: Ok, I guess. Are you coaching Dave then? Because I mean hes perfectly capable of looking back for old cases. And we get that he doesn't have any scumreads already.

I'm perfectly capable of looking back for old cases. I just don't have the time right now. I won't bore you with the details.

[Dave168]

L-1? Wrong wrong wrong some townies and probably some scums. Laughably wrong in fact. Go find some real scums.

[Dave168]

L-1? Wrong wrong wrong some townies and probably some scums. Laughably wrong in fact. Go find some real scums.

Even if it's wrong it is not "laughably wrong," You are acting extremely scummy in many different ways and so naturally we all think you are scum. There is nothing laughably wrong about that.
For instance, you just invoked the newb card, using your newbishness as an excuse for bad play. This is a classic, well known scumtell.
Try this: if you were one of us, why wouldn't you vote for you?

Not demonstratably laughably wrong from your angle. Just from mine.

Newb card? How about this: confirmation bias? This is a classic, well known fact that when ignorant (meaning information-deprived) townies think they see scum, they can then read scum everywhere else in that "scum"'s posts. Many of you will later examine your posts and read "confirmation bias".

Not sure I would vote for myself (if I was someone else) on the basis of a triple post. The rest is confirmation bias, as far as I'm concerned, you're finding what you expect to find, and reading into it intention that was not there. My style is to state a theme and elaborate, I post multiple. Sometimes I correct myself, if I realise I was wrong or inaccurate.

[Dave168]

EBWOP - I'm not denying that I mentioned loudly that I'm a relative newb, but nobody else was mentioning it, and it explains why my play is more messy than say AP or Thor.

On that subject, I read some of their exchanges and I still have no opinion on who to believe...

[Dave168]

Now another thing that bugs me is why did he choose to research and mention Safety's posts and mention them in the thread but not look at anyone else?

No time to search site for 12 people's posts. I chose 3 to skim, on the basis of when they confirmed. My main output was how many posts, and I focused on players with more posts so as not to scare newbs and to question experienced players in more detail (the IC in my first game was scum). I did not read the timestamps carefully, nor the content, other than skimming it for style. Only the first paragraph or so comes up, and I could have easily missed things from this exercise.

Had he done that he would have seen Leon had not had a single post on this site since Novermber 23rd (before he posts in this game)
had he done that he would have seen MM had not posted on site since November 26th (before he posts in this game)
HELL, he hadn't even posted on site since November 29th (until he votes in this game)

I did not closely examine the timestamps. I have a life, and do not do everything.

No posts on site in over a week to means that the player isn't very active on site so why would he not naturally assume that was the reason and instead leap to assume they didn't confirm because of some obscure tell, one that I have never heard of ever in my life

but wait there is more.

later he says he is keeping his vote on MM because

As far as I can see you are the second on the wagon, and the wiki says that scum are often second on the wagon. My vote stands.

If that was a legitimate tell, why would he not immediately call Thor out on page 1 for placing the 2nd vote on MM? or later because he is the 2nd person on his own wagon but as far as i can see he has yet to call Thor out for that one either.

I can only vote for one person at a time. Its very well saying all the extra things I could have done, but its hardly as convincing to draw conclusions from things I didn't get time / have resources to do, as from the things I have actually done.

Given that I ask him who his top scum reads are right now and he doesn't even mention MM who he was pretty suspicious of because of the wiki tells. Why does he not mention Thor who was also guilty of placing the 2nd vote on someone? Why does he not mention DoubleJD who he is voting for right now.

Believe it or not, it seems a higher priority to answer questions directed to me right now, than scum hunt. If you want to know my scums, read my past posts where I had time to define them.

his first game he used the dice roller to place his first vote.

his 2nd game his vote was because "for being a replacement, since possibly Lord Baltheir did not want to play as scum" (the funny thing is that slot was ACTUALLY scum lol)

in his 2nd game he certainly seems to know about RVS because he says this

in random voting stage its normal to choose someone to vote for. But asking questions, answering questions and stating opinions are also very helpful for the town, since the information will be available for the rest of the game.

he also says this

If you're not posting, then you need to do so, so we can have a good game and locate the scum. Not posting looks shady.

in that 2nd game there is definitely a since of confidence that I detect, I don't detect that same sort of confidence this game. Additionally he was definitely more active/agressive in that game.

sure it was a long time ago but if you read his 2nd game and compare it to this one, there is no way this is the same person with the same alignment.

Confirmation bias. Same person, same motives. Although I don't expect you to believe that readily.

[Dave168]

Yeah, let's lynch Dave.

OK. Suppose that was to happen. Is it normal to want a roleclaim first?

[Dave168]

EBWOP because nobody has actually asked me, and I was expecting that at L-1.

[Dave168]

Zippers vote was L - 1 btw.

or perhaps this was where I was supposed to roleclaim, but I didn't know if it meant that or not.

[Dave168]

Yeah, L-1 RoleClaims were pretty standard when I was here last. I don't knwo if anything has changed since then, but I don't see any reason why they would've.

p-edit. Generally you'll be asked before someone is ready to Hammer. We're not quite to that point, yet.

I will roleclaim if someone wants to hammer. I don't recommend this course of action.

[Dave168]

Yeah, let's lynch Dave.

OK. Suppose that was to happen. Is it normal to want a roleclaim first?

yes you will be asked to role claim at some point, usually when someone gives intent to hammer.

Since we have plenty of time left, I am fine waiting for replacements but I also will go ahead and imply that I have an

intent to hammer

.

I don't want to end the day yet because the new people's thoughts and reactions could be useful

OK then, I consider this, plus the standing votes, to be the consensus of opinion, forcing me to roleclaim.

Since I am not allowed to quote my PM (rule 8 was updated early-on to clarify that) I will instead paraphrase the useful information which it contains.

I am a cop (sanity not specified) who is aligned with the town, and I will win the game if there are no more threats to the town. Every night I am able to perform one investigation and find out whether one person of my choice is Guilty or Innocent.

I have tried really hard over the last 24-48 hours to defend myself as best I can, to not make it necessary to reveal this information. I am sure you can appreciate that it may jeopardise the reporting back of any information I gather in the morning. I would much have preferred to get 2 or even 3 nights results compiled before claiming. I feel a bit silly with my first game with power role and no results to report. But there you have it.

[Dave168]

L-1? Wrong wrong wrong some townies and probably some scums.

Laughably

wrong in fact. Go find some real scums.

@d3x: I was not able to encode any acronyms into my posts, since I wasn't confident enough it would sound natural, and didn't have time to work on that.

The word bolded above is the closest I got, along with a response about this later on. If the town is wrong to lynch town, it would be laughably wrong to lynch PR. I hoped that would get people's attention, but it didn't, well not in the right way.

[Dave168]

L-1? Wrong wrong wrong some townies and probably some scums. Laughably wrong in fact. Go find some real scums.

Even if it's wrong it is not "laughably wrong," You are acting extremely scummy in many different ways and so naturally we all think you are scum. There is nothing laughably wrong about that.
For instance, you just invoked the newb card, using your newbishness as an excuse for bad play. This is a classic, well known scumtell.
Try this: if you were one of us, why wouldn't you vote for you?

Not demonstratably laughably wrong from your angle. Just from mine.

Newb card? How about this: confirmation bias? This is a classic, well known fact that when ignorant (meaning information-deprived) townies think they see scum, they can then read scum everywhere else in that "scum"'s posts. Many of you will later examine your posts and read "confirmation bias".

Not sure I would vote for myself (if I was someone else) on the basis of a triple post. The rest is confirmation bias, as far as I'm concerned, you're finding what you expect to find, and reading into it intention that was not there. My style is to state a theme and elaborate, I post multiple. Sometimes I correct myself, if I realise I was wrong or inaccurate.

@d3x That is the response I meant

[Dave168]

Yeah, L-1 RoleClaims were pretty standard when I was here last. I don't knwo if anything has changed since then, but I don't see any reason why they would've.

p-edit. Generally you'll be asked before someone is ready to Hammer. We're not quite to that point, yet.

I will roleclaim if someone wants to hammer.

I don't recommend this course of action.

This was a late attempt to hint at my role, but I guess too late to be of any use.

[Dave168]

Dave pop quiz, ur role title

Cop

[Dave168]

Actually I dont care. This claim is bollocks.

I'm not sure how to answer that, except I can't see how it would be to town's advantage to lynch me on Day 1. If I'm lying, maybe someone out there can check. Or maybe no-one can, I have no idea, and don't need to know anyway. You guys go figure it out, I've said my piece.

[Dave168]

@AP - u just triple posted

[Dave168]

Three posts in a row is not a good scum tell. Judge for yourselves whether a cop who has done a stupid thing would be annoyed with himself, and post those three in quick succession with some exasperation showing when he realises he's made a mistake.

[Dave168]

You still don't grok how I play as scum - but you're at least vaguely closer to the truth with this basic idea. Hint: I think D3x looks like town.

Its a sublte thing. You know I like to argue with you and you know I think you are scum. If you say 2+2=4 Im more likely to doubt that claim. And arguing it with you is reaffirming my belief in what I am arguing (because Im putting effort into arguing it and because I dont trust your side of the argument). So ya. If you are scum, I kinda expect D3x to be town and this to be why.

Re jakes 395: Your points are all great. I think you should hammer away.

Ya 397 is scummy as hell.

Yep, I dont buy the claim. My ENTP psychological personality type is telling me that Dave's emotions and thoughts surrounding his claim are not genuine.

This claim makes it slightly more likely that Dave has daytalk and is buddies with Thor. You should have meta'd me, Thor. I dont have a soft spot for PR claims. And I highly doubt Dave's role title is just 'cop'. Although Mod meta would be nice here and this is Dunham's first game. Minor point anyhow.

Yep. If I werent already voting Dave, I would hammer right now. No one comments on sanity when their role title is just 'cop' And non-sane cops aren't allowed in mini normals anyways. If Dave truly were a cop, he would have checked that fact. Someone hammer him before zipper actually unvotes.

tl;dr:
-Dave's excuse for not crumbing sucks. You dont think about crumbing, and then dont because its 'awkward'. You either do or you don't care enough to or you forget to.
-Dave's appeal to fear was a supposed 'crumb' "Don't make me claim its a bad idea". Which in itself is a softclaim and there is no way town Dave drops such a blatant softclaim and expects anyone to believe that it wasn't obviously a PR claim as is and therefore USELESS. Why not just full claim?
-Cop is a hard to believe role title. But possible. This is a minor point.
-The claim itself is awkward. A cop is a cop. There is no super need to paraphrase the role PM so explicitly because we already know what a cop does. Dave is just acting like he is parsing a role PM that doesnt exist.
-If Dave were a cop and had previously self-reflected on possibly being not-sane, he would have done enough research to figure out that that is impossible in mini normals. This is just more fake emotions / song dance about the role pm

Sorry Dave. No ill will. But you have a scum card and Jake should hammer that.

My role is "Cop", not "Sane Cop" as in current newbies, or any other variant of cop. Just Cop, nothing else.

When I got my role, I looked up http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Cop

I saw 5 sanities listed there. Due to the difference between the current newbie setup which I researched (due to signing up for SE on newbie queue), and the role I received, I considered it likely that my results could be suspect. However, I hadn't understood the setup correctly; that is, I hadn't linked the forum we are playing in with the statement "This version of the Cop, and only this version of the Cop, is considered Normal on mafiascum.net. " So yes you are correct, in this case Cop must mean Sane Cop, and it was unnecessary of me to doubt my sanity.

There might be someone out there who can verify if I am town or scum at some point. If you're so sure I'm scum why not lynch me later in the game in the absence of evidence I am innocent? At least then when I flip town cop you will have a couple of results, assuming I survive that long.

[Dave168]

Also... here's a gem:

Yep, I dont buy the claim. My ENTP psychological personality type is telling me that Dave's emotions and thoughts surrounding his claim are not genuine.

I have no idea if you're town or not, but please, let everyone reflect on this statement in the post-game analysis or after I flip.

[Dave168]

@AP- Do you really want a Hammer down w/o the 3 replacements? Given, at least 2 have a few posts, but Leon has a single introductory post. How would this help us?

d3x - if these three were missing, would it stop your night game from being effective?

[Dave168]

: /

What wrong with me being cocky. Its how I play. You could point to several instances of me being confident and being wrong. Top of my head: LS in open space, Bitmap in space mafia, FLP in mini 1365. Point being, what is your point? And why does that statement matter if you 'don't know if Im town or not'. Is it scummy or isn't it? And if it apparently is not indicative of alignment (as you saying that I could be town or scum suggests) why bring it up?

No ill will here either. But maybe you should be less cocky, if you want others to believe you.

[Dave168]

@AP- Do you really want a Hammer down w/o the 3 replacements? Given, at least 2 have a few posts, but Leon has a single introductory post. How would this help us?

d3x - if these three were missing, would it stop your night game from being effective?

come to think of it, I don't need an answer to that.

found scum. sheep me <irony>

vote: d3x

[Dave168]

EBWOP - and before anyone mentions it, I don't need an answer NOT because this is bussing a fellow scum, BUT because the question in post 433 is rhetorical in nature, and was a direct accusation that d3x is scum and doesn't want to end Day 1 before at least one of his scum buddies is present to plan with.

[Dave168]

And... on a different subject... or possibly the same subject...

I have cop claimed. Is it possible for there to be more than 1 cop in Mini Normal? If so, a counter claim is counterproductive.

But if this setup has max 1 cop, any other cop should claim now. Then take your pick of who to lynch day 1 / 2, and you will have a scum for sure. I think we used this technique in my 2nd Newbie game.

But if there is no counterclaim - surely my claim holds water then.

Actually this is a valid reason for d3x to want to wait for 3 people to check in.

unvote

[Dave168]

@Jake, Kthx: I have not claimed cop or been scum in a previous game, so clearly you have prior experience of what a cop claim day 1 should/should not do. I don't have that experience.

@everyone: you are filtering every post I make through the filter of "dave is guilty". confirmation bias.

Seriously, if I was a scum, I'd have discussed "way to claim cop" day 0 with my scum buddies, and got it right with a bit of advice from probably more experienced players. I'd probably have had a nice breadcrumb lined up too.

[Dave168]

in my 2nd newbie game it was a day 3 cop claim with 5 people left. we'd lynched mafia roleblocker and doctor was NK'd, and in that setup (F11 I think) that meant there HAD to be a cop. i started day 3 asking for the cop. he duly claimed and was believed, since in that setup there could only be 1. hence in that scenario CC was the right thing to ask for, to narrow down from 5 people to only 2, with 2 lynches.

sure its wrong in this scenario, but I'm just throwing stuff out there, I can't think of every pro and con, i'm hoping other people can help out. but if its not even a valid subject for discussion, thats OK too.

[Dave168]

Its your loss, unless you're scum.

[Dave168]

Also what is the benefit to delaying it? Whatever checks he claims tomorrow are not going to be reliable.

They will be reliable when I flip cop, town side at some point probably quite early in the game.

Dave, i was looking at your paraphrase of your role pm, your role PM says you are aligned with the town is that pretty close to how it is worded in your role pm, is it worded differently, or did you just add that in there?

erm I don't want to get mod killed and am pretty sure that I can't directly quote from PM. However, the words "town" "aligned" and "cop" are right there in close enough proximity to leave me in little doubt that I am on the majority side here.

[Dave168]

Garrrrr.... think i'm finally about to die... water... far more painful than i ever thought possible... see you in the afterlife ladies and scums!

[Dave168]

GG everyone

Followed this quite closely - nervewracking!

What I don't get is - why did nobody believe i was a cop? Or why did nobody except Jake back off when I claimed? I was looking forward to collecting a couple of nights results before I flipped although I guess without a doc I'd have been dead night 1 anyway...

[Dave168]

Oh yeah - KJ's 1512 cartoon - AWESOME best thing I've ever seen where is the award nomination?