Mini 1648: Mafia in the Noose Factory. (Game Over)

[Ponystar17]

VOTE: Zebulin
I don't like the fact that he's trying to bring up someone else's meta this early in the game. Possible reasons why:
a) He actually, genuinely wants to warn us that he thinks Boonskiies is completely insane as VT, and the town is better off if he's lynched, regardless of alignment. Possible but seems unlikely when Boonskiies hasn't done anything to warrant the meta-warning yet.
b) Zebulin is scum and wishes to encourage a lynch of Boonskiies, who he knows is town.
c) They're both scum and he was trying to provide an excuse for any later mistakes by Boon.
d) I'm overanalyzing random chatter from this stage of the game.
All of these are possible. Personally, I suspect Zebulin because he seems outright manipulative already - he's trying to affect how we look at Boonskiies when we've barely even started.

Also, a point to do with your post that confused me, Zeb: wouldn't tunneling him because you think he's anti-town produce the same negative result as it did in that previous game, since a town-flip by him would inevitably implicate you? If you're both town again, that's two mislynches.

[Ponystar17]

I am bothered by BBT trying to get a claim out of Zeb - that in itself is odd (in that early claims are often anti-town and only aid scum in PR-hunting) but it's not as bothering as the fact that he outright admits it. Look at Zeb's reaction. You can't force someone to claim by saying you're pushing for a claim, not a lynch - it destroys the pressure of being at L-1. Is this just a poor excuse from BBT to try and avoid responsibility if Zeb flips town? There are plenty of pro-town reasons for not wanting to claim, as Zeb pointed out. I'm not saying that Zeb is necessarily town - this doesn't really affect my view of him - but BBT's stated intent to force a claim seems very fishy to me. Care to share your reasons, BBT? I'm hoping you have a better excuse than "I was PR-hunting", because that's blatant scumminess.
UNVOTE: Zebulin
VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee
To clarify, Zeb is far from off the hook in terms of suspicion for me, but I think the issues with BBT are what needs to be brought to peoples' attention.

PS: I don't think Zeb is likely to PR-claim all game (except if he actually thinks he's about to be lynched), due to the fact that his actions at the start of the game only make sense as VT or scum. Any roleclaim from him is going to be met with instant suspicion, at least by me and I hope by others.

PPS: I would just like to mention that House hasn't posted in the thread yet.

[Ponystar17]

Maybe you guys are right about BBT - I've never played in a game with him before, or really had time to look at his meta. But I've looked back over the thread, and I'm having trouble finding a pro-town reason for his choice to justify his wagon rather than keep the wagon going to L-1 in order to succeed at his alleged goal. And while I acknowledge that it could be a reaction test, I a problem with that, too. Unless I'm misinterpreting a post, he never outright admits to reaction-testing, and he's had plenty of time to observe reactions since the post. It's not that I can't see this as a reaction test, I just don't find it any easier than seeing it as scum play. Maybe it is too obvious for an experienced scum player, I just can't bring myself to stop suspecting him entirely.

Also, hello, House! Don't expect me to go easy on you just because you scumclaimed in that last game.

[Ponystar17]

Can someone who disagrees with the BBT wagon please explain why anything anyone has done so far is more suspicious than bad logic and blatant PR-hunting? I don't think meta is an acceptable excuse for behaviour which actively attempts to decrease town's chances of winning.

What I mean by bad logic: acting like it doesn't matter whether PRs are outed now or many days later, acting like wanting PRs outed at all isn't pro-scum.

[Ponystar17]

Ah, House. I missed your posting style in all of the 0 games I played without you.

[Ponystar17]

Slandaar: You can say "hey, that's weird and scummy, lynch her" all game without actually explaining yourself, and I won't bother to address your accusations. Your one point does stand, though - I suppose that mention of Zeb probably not roleclaiming all game could be interpreted as subtle PR-hunting, although it was intended as a caution against anyone who believed him later in the game. However, the sheer wooliness of the rest of your case leads me to believe that it's fake, for whatever reason. BBT still bothers me more than you do, but I don't like cases with no actual content. Your last post explains your case no more adequately than any of your others. Also, if you suspect me, why is your vote still on MonkeyMan? I've seen no explanation of why your vote on him should have turned serious - he was your RVS vote, unless I'm wrong.

My current impression of BBT: buddying me quite a bit, regardless of alignment. Could be a genuine observation that I look town to him, but he didn't exactly pick my towniest post to comment on, so I kind of doubt that. Might be buddying me so that I unvote him/think he's town, might be buddying me so that I look like scum.

[Ponystar17]

Assuming you're talking to me in #231 and #230, pisskop...
Firstly, WIFOM? No. I don't say that BBT has no alignment - I personally think he's very likely to be scum. Hence why my vote's on him. I'm not implying that I think he's scum. I think BBT is scum. Is that clear enough for you? I'll explain why below.

Side note: I find it hilarious that you fail to even mention my name when you address me and then call me out on not quoting people. I'm not even angry, just... with that and the spelling mistakes (which I assume are probably due to phone-posting or something) I find it very difficult to take you seriously. Still, I'll try.

BBT is scum because he was PR-hunting, and explicitly admitted to it in several posts. I can dig up the links for you if you want, but I don't think it's necessary, and I'm not inclined to put a huge amount of effort into responding to you after your zero-effort-looking post unless you specifically ask me to. In any case, it shouldn't take a genius to figure out why trying to expose PRs is anti-town, and using PR-hunting as an

excuse

for something is even more dubious (which he does "to prevent 20 pages of BS"). To clarify since I believe he asked why admitting to it made him scummier than lying: I'm not even sure if that [PR-hunting] was his real purpose in doing that. All I know is that either a) he was PR-hunting (anti-town) and doing it very badly or b) he wasn't PR-hunting and he's been lying to everyone (anti-town).

BBT began acting strangely towards me in #201 (although I suppose he could be interpreting it as town for some reason nobody else has noticed, including me). In #212, he again says I'm town without citing real reasons. I admit it isn't much, but BBT hasn't been terribly wordy in any of his posts, which doesn't leave me with much to go on.

PS: are you being sarcastic or hypocritical with that last comment? I'm having trouble figuring it out from the tone of your post.

[Ponystar17]

Side note: I find it hilarious that you fail to even mention my name when you address me and then call me out on not quoting people. I'm not even angry, just... with that and the spelling mistakes (which I assume are probably due to phone-posting or something) I find it very difficult to take you seriously. Still, I'll try.

Pony I find this interesting that you brought this up. Do you think pisskop is doing this on purpose or that he has no clue he's even doing it, yet calling people out for it?

I'm... actually not sure. While I see what you're trying to get at, I've had a very hard time reading the tone or intent of pisskop's post. I'm not even sure what I find so confusing - I think it's partly that I'm also trying to interpret the content, but I feel like that alone shouldn't be enough to confuse me so much.

...reading back over pisskop's other posts, I'm inclined to believe that he's just not (being) particularly tactful or invested in this game. My guess is that he's being hypocritical by accident (he doesn't realize he's doing it).

[Ponystar17]

pisskop: Yeah, I'm sorry. I think I overreacted to your post more than I initially realized - having to actually communicate with people who use bad spelling and grammar has always made me feel very uncomfortable, and I think I did take that out on you. Please do try to be clearer about who you're talking about, though - I was under the impression that you were referring to me throughout the post, even though you did use male gender pronouns at one point.

[Ponystar17]

BBT:
In response to your first question for me: you said a mostly-waffling post I made was townish, without specifying reasons. I... would also like to point out that your third "associative tells" scumread is the last person who was pressuring me, although I do agree with you on Slandaar being suspicious. Still, considering he was trying to make a case against me, it would be awfully convenient if he got lynched. Most of this argument is paranoia, though - I acknowledge that this particular case is pretty weak and I should probably drop it. It doesn't really make you look any more like town or scum than you already do.

Do I think it's good play for scum to openly admit to PR-hunting? No, but you clearly were trying to get one person to claim, so if you're saying you weren't PR-hunting, you start to contradict yourself. PR-hunting done one at a time and stopped when someone notices is still PR-hunting, and even if you

weren't

PR-hunting, there's still the point that you wanted Zeb to claim.

Why?

This has the same effect as PR-hunting - it reveals to the mafia that they either should or shouldn't NK someone.

Also, in this very post, you first imply that you admitted you were PR-hunting (citing it as bad scum play and a reason why you aren't scum). Then you deny PR-hunting. While I realize that you've been periodically denying it all game, here and in Post #160 you imply that you've admitted to PR-hunting. Please decide. Are you less scummy because you've admitted to PR-hunting or less scummy because you haven't been PR-hunting? You can't use both arguments.

It's not even the PR-hunting itself that bothers me anymore - it's that you keep contradicting yourself. I do think that it's very suspicious that Zeb thought PR-hunting might seem like a good idea to you and decided

not

to lynch over it, and I don't like that a few players have next to no actual content, but unless someone does something outstandingly scummy, I'd rather chase you until I've resolved my issues with your posts.

[Ponystar17]

@BBT (Post #280): I don't think running someone up to L-1 is automatically bad. However, answer this, please: how many times have you run someone up to L-1 with the stated intention not to lynch and gotten a scumclaim. And for that matter, how many times have you seen scum confess at L-1? Aren't they more likely to try and lie their way out? It seems to me like this particular brand of pressure (no intent to lynch but not telling them that) is the kind that exposes PRs, not scum.

If Page 3 and Page 20 are both on Day 1, you're right, there is no difference. However, are you really asking me why it's better for town to have a PR survive and be able to use their power for an additional day? Is that really a question you don't already know the answer to? It's not like a PR absolutely has to be exposed D1. Pressuring people with fake L-1 will only expose town PRs, because there's

no reason

for scum to ever confess to being scum. Do you really not understand why it's bad to force a real PR to claim at all?

Evidently I did misinterpret your posts. I'm just going to take that at face value - there's absolutely no reason for anyone to admit to PR-hunting, and it would be one of the weirdest slips I can imagine, so yeah, sorry. Looks like I misread your tone.

Also, I believe I can answer your response to #263 - he's referring to your willingness to PL tip and

whatshisface

Luca Blight for failing to contribute anything of substance due to being busy.

[Ponystar17]

...first question is missing a question mark, whoops.

[Ponystar17]

Nobody claims to be scum, that would be silly.

But, it's great information to work with and start the game. You can analyse the wagon; who was on it, who was off it, what was their reasoning for their respective decisions? Does the claim seem believable? How do other people react to the claim etc etc. Instead of all this happening on p25 with 6 hours to go till deadline and no time to analyse the new information (usually ending in the speedlynch of someone else if the original person run up claims a PR, leaving very little information to work with) I propose we do it earlier and give ourselves 12 days to analyse the information and decide on how to proceed.

No, I'm asking why you think people have a problem with early pressure. Not everyone who gets run up claims PR, either.

PEdit - Ploben, what is your read on Slandaar? You're very good at dodging questions; ever thought of going into politics?

While I agree that peoples' reactions would normally be a perfectly good reason to do this, I still can't understand why you admitted you were pushing for a claim. If you really did want to see whether or not Zeb would claim when pressured, why destroy the pressure by admitting to pushing for a claim? I do also agree that if we're going to force someone to decide whether or not to claim today because we plan to lynch them, it's better to do it earlier rather than later, but I present to you a scenario which could have happened (as a result of us pressuring someone who we had no idea whether we were actually going to lynch at the end of the day).
Zeb claims PR (doctor, cop, tracker, whatever). People aren't entirely convinced, but they find someone else who they'd rather lynch. Then Zeb is nightkilled and flips PR. I'm not going to ask a rhetorical question at the end of this, because that would be an insult to your intelligence. Draw your own conclusions.

Do people have a problem with early pressure? I think I said that I

don't

- I just find it very, very strange that you ruined your own attempt to pressure Zeb halfway in. Early pressure is all well and good, but my impression from your attempt was that you were trying to look like you were pressuring Zeb. Which... would actually lead me to the conclusion that you're both scum, and you were trying to look like you were bussing him without actually causing a lynch or putting too much pressure on him. That's the problem I have with what you did.

[Ponystar17]

Can someone reiterate the case against ploben, please? I've looked back over the thread and I'm having trouble understanding why he's being wagonned. I assume I'm missing something. Until then:
UNVOTE: BlueBloodedToffee
Because I've read over the thread again, I think he's refuted my case fairly and without slips, and I have no further problems with what he's posting. Will read over the thread focusing more on individuals besides BBT and ploben later today, when I have more time.

[Ponystar17]

Can someone reiterate the case against ploben, please? I've looked back over the thread and I'm having trouble understanding why he's being wagonned. I assume I'm missing something. Until then:
UNVOTE: BlueBloodedToffee
Because I've read over the thread again, I think he's refuted my case fairly and without slips, and I have no further problems with what he's posting. Will read over the thread focusing more on individuals besides BBT and ploben later today, when I have more time.

What are your thoughts on the Midget wagon?

Whole thing's a mess in my opinion. I can't tell if randomidget was actually scared or just sheeping House, and I have doubts about whether tip is town, which complicates things. Don't like that randomidget attempts to justify lurking. Want to look over tip's posts again and hear more about why ploben's wagon exists. May have forgotten a point in this post, had a longer post typed up but then lost internet when I was posting it and when my internet came back, the text was gone; posting by memory.

What about you? What do you think of it?

[Ponystar17]

Whole thing's a mess in my opinion. I can't tell if randomidget was actually scared or just sheeping House, and I have doubts about whether tip is town, which complicates things. Don't like that randomidget attempts to justify lurking. Want to look over tip's posts again and hear more about why ploben's wagon exists. May have forgotten a point in this post, had a longer post typed up but then lost internet when I was posting it and when my internet came back, the text was gone; posting by memory.

What about you? What do you think of it?

Yeah that's unfortunate you forgot your thoughts due to the internet cutting out.

I tell you what;
I am going to copy your read on Midget. So let me know my current read please

This isn't scummy because you're refusing to answer my question. This is scummy because you're treating me like scum, refusing to share information, then

not even voting me.

You've made it quite clear that you think I'm scum, and your vote on MonkeyMan is quite frankly stale. Your actions are not the actions of an honest scumhunting townie, they are the actions of someone who wants a second safe wagon in case the first one fights back too much. You're not looking for new scumtells by me, you're acting as if you know I'm scum already.

Also, with regards to your argument against MonkeyMan that you made a few valid points and stuck with them: no. No you didn't, at least not against me. You made several complaints about my posting, then dropped all but one and tried to make your case look better by comparing your one point to a much weaker case and saying it was stronger - my case against BBT at the time. That's not making a few points and sticking with them, that's not having a few quality arguments (the one you stuck with is very subjective and a weak scumtell at best), that really is just throwing crap and seeing what sticks.

PS: Welcome back, Luca.

[Ponystar17]

Slandaar: No, you're not. The only way you could absolutely know my alignment would be if you were scum. Town on Day 1 is never this certain on a read, especially with so little evidence.

I didn't say you weren't looking to expand your case, I said you weren't looking for legitimate scumtells. There's a difference.

Please reiterate your question, I find it confusing. What do you mean, you engaging on me if you're not scumhunting? Maybe I'm being dense, but I'd appreciate it if you could reword that. As it is, I can't answer it.

Wait, you're saying you

didn't

drop your arguments in #224? Even after #337 where you admitted that they were "fake"? Please clarify: did you drop them as you implied, or not?

BBT: In lieu of anyone significantly scummier than ploben, I will hop to your wagon. Your arguments seem reasonable. But I do have a question for you: if you're townreading Slandaar, why? If you're not townreading him, why is my previous post "wrong but town"?
VOTE: ploben
However, I will very much hold you accountable for pushing this wagon so hard if ploben flips town.

[Ponystar17]

BBT (#407):
Sorry to disappoint you, Blue, but no. I'm more likely to trust you because bussing on Day 1 is a terrible move for scum, but it doesn't eliminate the possibility that you're either scum or simply wrong. I'm just scum looking for an excuse to lynch you if he flips town.

I don't suppose you could elaborate on why #336 makes Slandaar scum? Sure, he's actually putting some effort in, but he's basically just summarizing the game (albeit subjectively), not analyzing it. That post looks pretty null to me, although it bothers me a bit that he makes a completely nonsensical point against MonkeyMan.

Regarding your more recent posts, why is the ploben wagon less stale than the randomidget one? As far as I can see, neither of them has posted much of substance in the last few pages.

[Ponystar17]

Not even going to bother responding properly to Slandaar's case. If I get lynched for not bothering to defend myself from such a ridiculous case, so be it.

I don't agree that MonkeyMan's post refusing to answer was suspect. I don't think I would have acted significantly differently in his position (something I'm sure Slandaar will hold against me/him), but although that post is null to me, I actually don't like his later posts. He seems far too defensive when the only person going after him is House - his claim that he was backing BBT, practically the leader right now, into a corner is frankly ridiculous. Maybe he thought he was close to convincing him that his logic was ridiculous, but BBT was in no way under pressure there. He's far too defensive.
UNVOTE: ploben
VOTE: MonkeyMan576
It feels weird to be agreeing with House.

[Ponystar17]

Can someone please explain to me what tip has done which warrants two people voting him over people who have actually acted scummily? Sure, he's lurking to a PL-worthy degree, but I hardly think policy lynches are more important than actual attempts to catch scum. I can see the viewpoints of all the other cases (even if I don't entirely agree with them), but I don't see what tip really did besides fail to contribute. I'd be okay with lynching him later on if he continues to provide nothing of substance - no content means that alignment is impossible to judge - but isn't it more important to lynch people who are actually likely to be scum?
Apologies for lack of content, had a busy day and it's past when I should be in bed. Will try to provide an analysis of someone tomorrow.

[Ponystar17]

Analysis of tip:
He self-votes after RVS ends, for no apparent reason. He then theorizes that Zeb and Boon are both scum, but rather than voting one of them like a townie, he keeps his vote on himself. He then posts nonsense, votes MonkeyMan for no apparent reason, comments on other wagons, and tries to get other people to join his completely unexplained wagon. He follows this up by... making a post I don't understand (#92) about randomidget's posting. I genuinely have no idea what he was trying to say with the "lethe gallery" thing, so if anyone wants to explain...

tip doesn't contribute any content, and is promptly jumped on by House and then randomidget for his active lurking. He then posts more fluff and cross-votes randomidget - very shortly after a wagon against random begins to gather weight (ploben hops on). I really don't like that he jumped into the third spot on a bandwagon which looked like it might have been gathering momentum at the time.

tip then claims that he was actually pointing out bad play and scumreads (which he obviously wasn't), and suggests that House and pisskop (the latter of whom questioned House's scumread of tip) are scum together. As I have come to expect from tip, there is no actual justification, and he doesn't bother to vote either of them.

tip contributes nothing of value until #258, where he attacks Zebulin - quoting the very post in which Zebulin voted him. This is becoming a pattern - tip is far, far too defensive. Then tip posts a magnificent timeline, in which I can find no flaw.

Tip then does not post until #363, then accuses Kaboose of pushing the same argument without justifying it while being inactive. Does this remind you of anything? tip then posts more fluff and continues his non-debate with randomidget about who intimidated the other one, then doesn't post until... ever, actually. That's all he's done.

All in all, my first reaction would be "okay, he clearly doesn't care about this game," but then I noticed how emotional he seemed when he reacted to people voting him. TL;DR I think tip's slot is most likely scum, not because he active-lurked but because he reacted very strongly to anyone voting him. I feel like he dropped out because he knew he was doing a poor job of covering up his alignment, although this is pure gut feeling.
VOTE: tip's slot
In light of this, I'm wary of the randomidget wagon because I'm fairly certain that at least one mafioso is on it. However, something I'm not sure people have realized:

We're running out of time.

We need to agree on a lynch - the deadline is in two days. This is an appeal to townies - please don't let the day go by without lynching. We need the chance of catching scum, and the information the lynch will give us. I am certainly willing to compromise on who we lynch, if my vote is required to prevent us from hitting the deadline.

[Ponystar17]

519 - Not sure why you felt the need to 520 - Can you condense this post into why Tip is scum, Pony? There is a lot of analysis that you haven't attributed to being town/scum.

Pony, defensiveness does not equal scum.

I'm aware we are running out of time. You should join the Ploben wagon.

Spoiler: More concise version of the post, or Why Tip Is Scum

tip jumped on randomidget's bandwagon a) when it was gaining momentum and b) when randomidget was voting him. To his credit, the OMGUS does go both ways, but it's still OMGUS.

tip makes wild accusations without backing things up. See my other post - specifically the part where he accuses House and pisskop of being scum together for basically no reason.

tip doesn't contribute any significant amount of useful content, regardless of alignment. This doesn't make him scum, but it means I have few problems with lynching him if he isn't.

tip reacts violently to being accused regardless of the validity of the case. See his response to my post if you want more proof. It's not that he's defending himself at all that I have a problem with - my problem is that resorting to insults and OMGUS is generally something people do when they're scared or angry, and being scared or angry does not match up with the disinterested townie persona. This implies that either the emotion is fake or the persona is, and the greatly more likely one is the persona - the odds of him being scum are reasonable, and his actions make far more sense as scum than as town.

tip almost never takes a stance on any wagon which doesn't involve either him or someone who's trying to lynch him.

BBT, why is tip town? Please explain.

I will consider your ploben wagon. I definitely find it preferable to no lynch just from what I can remember without looking over his ISO again.

Slandaar: No, get your own randomidget read or at least stop trying to steal mine.

[Ponystar17]

BBT, you have the wrong problem with MonkeyMan's actions. My case certainly isn't the strongest one I've ever seen (although I'm sticking with it), but the real problem is that after agreeing with a Tip lynch, he unvotes only a day from the deadline, saying that he doesn't see any need to rush a lynch. What the hell, Monkey?

Yes, Kaboose, I absolutely think that if tip is scum, so is MonkeyMan. That unvote makes zero sense.

Slandaar, get your act together and notice when MonkeyMan unvotes for terrible reasons only a day before the deadline. I know randomidget has done some suspicious things, but MonkeyMan is both your original scumread and far more blatant.

I still support the tip wagon but would happily lynch MonkeyMan and will vote ploben at deadline if necessary.

[Ponystar17]

I feel that if I bothered to respond to tip's antagonism, I would be drawn into a flame war and I'd rather that didn't happen. Consider this intent not to acknowledge his posts unless he posts something scummy or (miraculously) towny.

I feel okay with a lynch on any of tip, Monkey, or ploben in light of ploben's ridiculous opportunism. My vote will thus go to whichever wagon is largest when I log off before the deadline, unless we lynch before then or more points of interest are raised.

Since I feel that I'm reasonably likely to die tonight, have a list of my opinions.

Reads list

Town

BlueBloodedToffee

Leaning Town

pisskop

Null

Boonskiies
Slandaar
Kaboose
House

Leaning Scum/Alternative Suspects

randomidget
Zebulin

Scum

MonkeyMan
ploben
tip

I find towniness a difficult thing to judge (compared to scumminess) because there's been a lot of lurking this game and with a lurker, having done nothing else scummy isn't necessarily a sign that they aren't scum.

[Ponystar17]

Luca actually being pro-town...

Tip: Midget is scum.
Midget: nu uh vote Tip!!!
Tip: vote midget
Midget: OMGUS! scum!
Tip: ...

Lynch midget and be happy.

I think tip is scummier due to his interactions with Ponystar. If we lynch tip or Randomidget today, their flip will probably determine the alignment of the other player. That argument screams town v mafia imo.

Seconded on all of these points. My suspicion of your alignment would normally make me doubt your opinion, but in this case it matches mine almost exactly.

Boonskiies, can I assume by the fact that you think me, Zebulin, and Ploben are scum that you believe that randomidget v. tip is a town-on-town argument?

[Ponystar17]

My suspicion of your alignment would normally make me doubt your opinion,

This sort of stuff is really suspicious.

Acknowledged and agreed, now that I look back on it.

[Ponystar17]

curiouskarmadog, I would like you to look over tip's post history and consider whether or not you're willing to vote him. I will warn you that voting him would put him at L-1, but I don't feel that that's a problem at this point in the game.

I mildly dislike the ploben wagon because MonkeyMan is on it. I'm still willing to vote to prevent NL or on a future day, though, since I'm more confident that ploben is scum than that MonkeyMan is.

[Ponystar17]

I mildly dislike the ploben wagon because MonkeyMan is on it. I'm still willing to vote to prevent NL or on a future day, though, since I'm more confident that ploben is scum than that MonkeyMan is.

Explain this logic to me:
You dislike the wagon on me because MonkeyMan is on it (I'm assuming you think he's scum), but you're willing to vote on me just to lynch someone today, but you're "more confident that ploben is scum than that MonkeyMan is.", yet your vote sits on tip.

There is nothing wrong with this. I'm most confident of all that tip is scum, but you're my second best guess on scum. MonkeyMan is a reasonably close third.

Can someone please explain to me what tip has done which warrants two people voting him over people who have actually acted scummily?

Can YOU please explain to me why your vote is on him then?

ISO me. I've explained plenty of reasons why I voted tip,

after

I said this. This is misrep, and cements my opinion of you as scum.

I feel okay with a lynch on any of tip, Monkey, or ploben in light of ploben's ridiculous opportunism. My vote will thus go to whichever wagon is largest when I log off before the deadline, unless we lynch before then or more points of interest are raised.

You want to talk about opportunistic? I think your quote is a shining example of it right there.

More misrep. You keep saying "oh, no, my previous opinion was completely wrong, let's lynch this person who everyone thinks is scum at the moment instead." I'm saying that I'm happy with a lynch on any of these, because I think they're all scum. In fact, I will endeavor to push all of these wagons, I simply don't believe it matters much which of you dies on Day 1.

[Ponystar17]

curiouskarmadog, I would like you to look over tip's post history and consider whether or not you're willing to vote him. I will warn you that voting him would put him at L-1, but I don't feel that that's a problem at this point in the game.

thanks for the warning...if you think he is scum, why bother to warning me? I mean if he is scum, why give a shit?

"I think Bob murdered a coven of nuns, but careful if you agree with me that he is guilty, he might be punished"

Mostly to see how you reacted. I think I feel okay with reading you as leaning town now. I'd still prefer if you voted tip since we're closer to getting a lynch on him, but ploben is definitely an okay lynch too.

PS: the case against randomidget is mostly composed of two things.
a) He lurks a lot. This is objectively true, and he probably deserves a policy lynch for it, but there are more important people to kill.
b) In #136, tip suggests that we vote randomidget. In #141, randomidget votes tip. This could easily be interpreted as OMGUS, considering the utter lack of explanation as to why.

However, considering how their interactions have gone, my personal opinion is that one of them and exactly one of them is scum, and I'm confident that tip is scum. Therefore randomidget is

probably

town by association.

[Ponystar17]

629 - Pony, same question to you. What tells you that

one

of Tip and Random is scum?

I'm really disliking Pony's recent posts.

630 - I'm sorry Slandaar, none of those are alignment indicative.

633 - Really don't like this post. Just hits me as scum and it's hard to explain.

637 - Why is Tip so town to you now Monkey?

651 - Pony, the amount of posturing you're doing to join either a Ploben or a Monkey wagon is frighteningly scummy. I'm really disliking your recent posts. You keep stating how scummy Ploben and Monkey are whilst sitting on Tip (the largest wagon I should point out) the whole time.

652 - What?!? Zeb, you're OK with lynching Random because, in your opinion, it gives you insight into

one

players alignment? Are you serious?

Like, Monkey is scummy and he comes

after

Random in your lynch order? Wow.

655 - Yay, House is doing something. I like this post.

658 - Interested in your change of reads here Zeb. Firstly, why have I moved from town to null?

Secondly, if Tip vs Random is town vs mafia, and you're scum-reading Tip...why is Random null? That surely makes him town, no?

660 - Pisskop, what info do you expect to gain from Ploben's lynch? Not sure how you're coming up with nulls on both slots either.

669 - This is weak from Pony. A reaction test? Are you serious? What reactions where you trying to elicit?

More posturing to join Ploben wagon as well. Your last few posts have been pretty scummy. More than pretty scummy actually.

I believe that one of tip and random is scum because of the way they interacted early on - I find it hard to believe that they're the same alignment. I can elaborate D2 if you want, but it's 11PM where I am right now and I have to go to bed soon.

I've repeated that I think

all three of them are scum.

I've already said before why I think tip is scum, and he hasn't really said anything which doesn't fall under a complaint I've had about him before. I'm not mentioning tip as much because I'd just be saying the same thing over and over again. I do think it's as good of a wagon as the ploben one and better than the MonkeyMan one, there's just more new posts and more new things I've noticed from those two.

With regards to the reaction test, I was trying to make agreeing with the tip wagon as threatening as possible to scum!karma. Obviously it didn't work - they noticed, which makes it a failed reaction test regardless of alignment (and not something I'll be trying again this game). I'm not saying it was a good move, and I am sorry. It was the wrong thing to do in hindsight - I shouldn't have done it. The first part of this sentence is explanation, I am not trying to excuse my poor judgement.

Posturing? No, I'm just not vote-hopping willy-nilly. I'd feel pretty ridiculous if I just hopped back and forth for no reason, and I think both are equally valid. I said I'd go for the one with more votes at the end of the day and I'm sticking with it.

VOTE: ploben
L-1. I feel entirely okay with someone hammering.

[Ponystar17]

VOTE: tip
What I've already said, what other people have already said, and associative tells from Ploben. #158, #187, #559, #588: none of these are especially conclusive on their own, but they do show ploben's general attitude towards tip, and that strengthens my belief that he's scum.

Slandaar nightkill points to me or MonkeyMan as scum, if you're into that sort of thing.

BBT, why did you unvote and vote tip?

curiouskarmadog, I can only partially refute your first point by saying "no, that's not a lie, and you have nothing which really indicates otherwise." To the second, yes - I was stating intent to lynch tip, and if you were his scumbuddy, I imagine you'd find that to be intimidating. With regards to the third... actually, I'd have been okay with hammering him even if he'd claimed town two-shot tracker, because a) we were running out of time and b) he was my second strongest scumread. The only reason I bothered to say that was because - as I believe I said prior to that - I wouldn't be online for the deadline, or, indeed, after that post.

[Ponystar17]

If tip is town, I will accept my lynch. I'm 90% sure he's scum, though, and I really don't see why I should be lynched for being on scum's wagon. If you want to lynch me because you think I'm scum, fine, but don't lynch me for wanting to lynch scum, that's utterly ridiculous.

I'm conflicted about Boonskiies' hammer. On the one hand, I'm glad that tip's going to get lynched today; on the other, Boonskiies being self-contradictory is scummy. His play alone is anti-town. His last post really, really pings my scumdar and I can't explain why.

[Ponystar17]

VOTE: Boonskiies
Highly suspect play at the end of yesterday. That hammer timing was in no way pro-town.

Will be looking back over what Zebulin said between D2's start and his death.

Sorry for lack of content, I'm ill and it's a bit difficult to type coherently. Will try to contribute analysis soon, if I have the energy.

[Ponystar17]

Just realized something: what happened to BBT? I half-thought he'd gotten NK'd, then I looked back over the thread and realized nope, he just hasn't posted in two days.

[Ponystar17]

BBT: A couple of things.

Firstly, where did Zeb soft-claim PR? Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't remember that. Secondly, why do you think pisskop is town? Thirdly, why are you discounting the

possibility

that random is scum so easily? It seems like a weird coincidence that random and the scum shot the same person, who happened to be a PR.

I did not visit Zebulin. CKD, when do you intend to reveal who else targetted Zebulin? I'd like to request that you don't wait until the end of the day (although waiting until everyone has posted seems reasonable).

[Ponystar17]

@Pony - He said 'he KNOWS' tip is scum. Obvious guilty on said player = obvious PR.

Pisskop is town because I find it highly unlikely 3 scum sat on a wagon (random) that was going nowhere. In a few VCs, the only people voting Random are Ploben, tip and pisskop. Doesn't fit that they're all scum.

Because when Plobeb/tip where in danger of being lynched they just sat on Random anyway. They needed to set up a viable CW, Random was it. Scum do not hard buss when they're in danger of being lynched. Not both of them anyway.

No, it doesn't. If Random is a vig it's quite possibly the worst shot I have ever seen (this is the only thing that points to Random scum because it's such a dumb move after Zeb gave us scum) but scum would for sure kill Zeb.

You're forgetting that tip didn't know he was scum. Also, I don't see anything strange about scum wanting to sit on a wagon that isn't going anywhere. It's the safest thing to do for them, isn't it?
...incidentally, what's a CW? This is my second game on-site, and even if that's no excuse for poor play, I don't know all the terminology.

[Ponystar17]

Intent to hammer: House
My reasons are doubtless ones you won't agree with, BBT, but I'm sheeping you.

[Ponystar17]

'kay.
VOTE: House

[Ponystar17]

CKD, I think you can consider silence to be denial, considering they've both posted since your original post. Just fill us in on who visited Zebulin last night. Don't give me a good reason to think you're just PR-hunting.

[Ponystar17]

GG everyone! Very impressive play from curiouskarmadog - congrats on carrying town to victory D3!

[Ponystar17]

Thank you for modding, Cheery Dog.