*GAME OVER* Mini 1690 - Zed's Tavern! (Mafia Win!)

[Billi bilaði]

Hi.

VOTE: dragonspawn for a dangerous sounding name.

[Billi bilaði]

Thanx.

[Billi bilaði]

Heavy day at work, and then it's suddenly 5 pages.

I've read them twice over and I still scratch my head over how (acc. to zakk) Aero is suspicious for casting suspicion at zakk, but zakk is not suspicious for casting suspicion at Aero.
But many must disagree, because zakk is at L-2.

So, after the break I'll...

[Billi bilaði]

... VOTE: zakk AND THEREBY PUT HIM AT L-1 !

[Billi bilaði]

VOTE: zakk

Why the re-vote?
(You are already a part of the L-1.)

[Billi bilaði]

(Didn't notice page 6. Found the answer there.)

[Billi bilaði]

UNVOTE: zakk

[Billi bilaði]

I've gone on record speed wagoning my buds just because of the idea that the fast wagon growth implies they are town.

Do you mean "buds" as in "my mafia partners"?
If not, do you want to imply your buds are always town, regardless of if they are, or if you know their status?

[Billi bilaði]

I meant exactly what I said.

Well, I don't understand it.
Maybe it's because english is my second language, so would you be so kind as to explain to my what it is that you exactly ment?

[Billi bilaði]

I mean buds as shorthand for 'my mafia buddies'.

Thank you.

[Billi bilaði]

Like, there's people that have posted like twice, and you already feel like you have enough information to end the day and lynch somebody? No.

hmmm? Where have they posted this twice?

Isn't Aero saying that there are players with only a couple of posts in this game, and thus we don't have enough info on them yet?

[Billi bilaði]

...
personally I think Zakk knew before he let on that he was L-1, and his reation seemed a little fake.

I'm of this mindset also.

[Billi bilaði]

... VOTE: zakk AND THEREBY PUT HIM AT L-1 !

Why did you feel the need to put him at L1?

For informational purposes.
I think going back to L-3 without any testing of the wagon is rather futile.

[Billi bilaði]

Should we know a Dave?

[Billi bilaði]

Reactions.
There were reactions.
They will be food for thought as we go on.

[Billi bilaði]

Should we know a Dave?

Davesaz replaced DJ_lantern in post 168.

Reactions.
There were reactions.
They will be food for thought as we go on.

Coiuld you show me the reactions that are useable and what you think they mean?
...

1) Ahhh... missed out on the replacement part at the bottom of the vote count.

2) 5 players in 10 posts gave replies while at L-1.
You wanted a claim right away.
Both dragonspawn and Mahonster came with fake intents.
zakk sounded a bit apologetic to me. That puts him on both sides of the fence. Also, wanted us to think that he didn't know the vote-count: That might turn out to be more interesting as we go along.
And Shiro was the one that releaved the L-1 situation in post 125. Then in post 127 takes zakk's word that there wasn't an L-1 situation. Does that point to a townie that doesn't have full attention on the game?

So, what jumps out the most is that at least 2 people don't seem to check the real situation when an L-1 situation is announced.
Other things are there to keep in mind when the game plays on.

[Billi bilaði]

Both dragonspawn and Mahonster came with fake intents.

How about the fake hammer?

I named the fake hammer a "faked intent" to include it in the same sentence, as I deemed it similar activities.

[Billi bilaði]

If from a townie, it's a cheap way to test the attention of the L-1 candidate. No harm in it.
But do we know if it was a fake intent? No, not at the moment.

[Billi bilaði]

In Chevre's ISO I notice a few things:

He strives for any lynch. Very bad, because he is basically stating that he would quickhammer anybody. (But would probably seldom be in the situation, since he would usually be a part of the wagon.)

He advertises that he doesn't trust his own readings, which might be interpreted as: "If I am a mafioso I want to be seen as a "chokolate doughnut" (i.e. "without responsibility") so I can freewheel it".

His last 7 posts are only about the SilverWolf discussion (stemming from his 8th & 9th last posts). And the remaining 3 mean wery little.

Chevre is at L-2, and I want to change it to L-1 to see if that takes his posts outside of this one topic...

[Billi bilaði]

VOTE: Chevre

[Billi bilaði]

The votes should be in the order they were placed for VCA/wagon analysis later in the game.

So yes please and thanks Ozgin.

this.

Ditto.

[Billi bilaði]

In Chevre's ISO I notice a few things:

He strives for any lynch. Very bad, because he is basically stating that he would quickhammer anybody. (But would probably seldom be in the situation, since he would usually be a part of the wagon.)

He advertises that he doesn't trust his own readings, which might be interpreted as: "If I am a mafioso I want to be seen as a "chokolate doughnut" (i.e. "without responsibility") so I can freewheel it".

His last 7 posts are only about the SilverWolf discussion (stemming from his 8th & 9th last posts). And the remaining 3 mean wery little.

Chevre is at L-2, and I want to change it to L-1 to see if that takes his posts outside of this one topic...

... VOTE: zakk AND THEREBY PUT HIM AT L-1 !

Chevre is at L-2, and I want to change it to L-1 to see if that takes his posts outside of this one topic...

Is there some reason you keep putting people to L-1 and forcing claims?

You are a serious FoS right now.

I stated my reasons pretty clearly in post 269.
All three reasons could individually be enough reason for me to put an L-1. All three together made it sure.
I have (not on this site) gotten scum by noting a singular focus in posting - all posts directed towards just one player. It is worth it to look into that.

[Billi bilaði]

@Billi:

In this post I clearly state that I am suspecting you. However, not one other time in the game before or after have I stated any reasons or really even mentioned you. Is there a reason you decided not to respond to this? You also posted directly after it, so I find it hard to believe you just didn't notice.

Yes, I noticed.
No, I didn't see any reason to respond to this.
I'm just happy to get a bit of suspicion, because that will mean that I'm less likely to be an obv-kill at night time.
(I.e. I usually try to play so I have some suspicion on me.)

PS: Information like this has very little meaning for me on day 1, but usually get to be food for thought on later days.

[Billi bilaði]

@Shiro - You don't seem interested in scumhunting. You didn't even vote Chevre so saying you voiced suspicion is... meh? You barely took a stance at all. Who's your second choice, if you don't want to run up Chevre? I know you were in the hospital, so that excuses some of it but... it's Wednesday, now's your time.

Yea I am finally back home. Admittidly I was just browsing the game so It would be good for me to re-read it.

If you want a hard stance on Chevre I can say if someone put him at L-1 I am willing to hammer. ...

Not knowing that there is an L-1 situation, and claiming to be willing to hammer that player is rather townie.

[Billi bilaði]

Really liking wolf,

ok

, and aero this game. Hopefully its not just because i like them.

Who is "ok"?

[Billi bilaði]

Mini 1690:
Day 1 voting:
Red votes are obsolete votes, i.e. retracted or vote moved.
Structure:
"x:" is the number of the vote within the day. (1st vote, 2nd vote, etc.)
"xx" is the number of the post in which the vote was cast.
"name" of the player that cast the vote.

Players	Day 1 voting
dragonspawn	9: 18 Billi	12: 34 dj_red_lantern
SilverWolf	4: 9 Mahonster
pisskop	2: 7 zakk
Aeronaut	1: 6 SilverWolf	5: 11 Chevre	8: 17 pisskop	14: 61 zakk	21: 175 Chevre
Mahonster	11: 23 Quaroath
davesaz (dj)
BlockyMan	25: 216 pisskop	29: 359 Quaroath
Billi bilaði	10: 20 dragonspawn
Quaroath	15: 68 Mahonster
Chevre	19: 167 Grimmjow	20: 174 dragon	22: 177 Silver	23: 179 Quaroath	24: 195 dave	26: 270 Billi	30: 392 Aeronaut	31: 413 pisskop
Grimmjow
zakk	3: 8 Shiro	6: 12 BlockyMan	13: 48 dragon	16: 111 Grimmjow	17: 113 Chevre	18: 115 Billi	27: 299 Aeronaut	28: 336 pisskop
Shiro	7: 13 Aeronaut

Wagons:
1 L-1: zakk:

Shiro

, Blocky, dragon, Grimm, Chevre, Billi (Shiro unvotes)
2 L-1: Chevre: Grimm, dragon, Silver,

Quaroath

, dave, Billi (Quaroath unvotes)
3 L-0: Chevre: Grimm, dragon, Silver, dave, Billi, Aeronaut,

pisskop Lynches

I believe that such info can sometimes help in analyzing alignment patterns.


Reads on day 1:

Reader\Player	dragon	Silver	pisskop	Aeronaut	Mahonster	davesaz	Blocky	Billi	Quaroath	Chevre	Grimm	zakk	Shiro
dragonspawn	XXXXX	mt	mt	mt						ms		nr ( wt ms )
SilverWolf	mt (wt)	XXXXX		mt			ws	ws (ms)		ws	ws	wt
pisskop		st	XXXXX	ws			ws			ms	ws	ms (ws)
Aeronaut	mt			XXXXX				ws		ms		ms
Mahonster	st				XXXXX
davesaz		st		mt	wt	XXXXX				ms
BlockyMan							XXXXX					ss
Billi bilaði								XXXXX		ms		ms
Quaroath									XXXXX	ms
Chevre		ws		ws						XXXXX		ms
Grimmjow			ws							ss	XXXXX	wt ( ss )
zakk	mt	st (mt)		ms						wt	ws (nr)	XXXXX
Shiro	mt	mt	wt	mt	nr	nr		ws	wt	ms	nr	ws ( mt )	XXXXX

Now, the vote table is just plain facts, but the reads table, on the other hand, is often my personal take on how players are indicating their reads.
Am I way off of some reads, or missing any obvious ones?

[Billi bilaði]

In 518 I forgot the clarifications for the reads table:

ss=strong scum
ms=medium scum
ws=weak scum
nr=null read
wt=weak town
mt=medium town
st=strong town

(I'm often guessing at the level of the read.)

Green colours for town reads.
Red colours for scum reads.

Reads in () are older reads, for when I know or believe the read has changed.

Blank fields mean I didn't pick up any read for that cell.

PS: I found it funny that Shiro didn't want to do reads "for the whole lot of us" (paraphrased) when there was only one player left to read.

PPS: I'm pretty good at english, but I get the feeling that the close group of friends (Silver, Aero, pisskop...) have developed their mafia-play lingo so that I have to spend extra effort to absorb it all. But it will come.

[Billi bilaði]

...No, we are not lynching you because you are a VT. Please stop with the defeatist attitude.
...

I don't have a defeatist attitude at all

I'm just sardonically commenting on the lazy L-1 that forced me to claim

, along with somebody's (busy or I'd check whose) opinion that lynching me would be better SOLELY because I'd already claimed

It's disgusting.

I'll say more later and I'll have actual thoughts about actual people at that point

Well, my pocket money is on you as scum as things stand, and there's nothing lazy about that.
You start the game in a certain way, get reactions, don't like them, and change your playstyle.
In this post you then show a bit of your initial playstyle in this game.
Too many scum, in the very few games I've played on this site, have been using similar playstyles.

But, I won't place my vote until I've had time to get through my reads for day 1 properly. (And I will have that time soon.)

[Billi bilaði]

...
Given that, I also have a town read on dragon like everybody else seems to here. One thing I would like to have explained and discussed a little more is this:

You said either Aero or I were scum. Reading between the lines, I can conclude that Aero is scum. Im sure I could drag out weak reasons to suppliment that, but . . .

I said I think that to be true. Not sure what lines there are.

Ill tell you why. Someone tried to kill me last night. ozgin told me. I think it would have had to be someone familiar with me since my focus yesterday was mostly chevre. I haven't been playing as a threat to anyone alive.

But other than this suspicion I don't see what I would have been implying.

Seems like this statement was mostly ignored and I don't know why. What thoughts do other people have on it?

I noticed this statement also, and then looked at my reads chart.
Players with only town reads is an ideal candidate for night kills for all scum. (Not just for friends.)

[Billi bilaði]

Been off the grid doing iso read-throughs to form opinions of players (and have shorter references when need comes to review).
I am about half the way through (started with fewest posts players), and will try to finish it up tomorrow.
But, here is the first half:

First the short version:

Mahonster (12+4=16): Read: Null Read.
davesaz (dj_(2)) (2+9=11): Read: Weak Town.
BlockyMan (6+1=7) -> Cheetory6 (7+13 = 20): Read: Weak Town.
Quaroath (10+9=19): Read: Weak Scum.
(Chevre (13): Lynched day 1. Serial Killer.)
Grimmjow (5): Read: Weak Town.

Long version:

Mahonster (12+4=16):

P1 (9): rvs vote on Silver with flippy reason.
P2 (68): Answr to + vote on Quaroath abt flippy reason. (Still rvs.)
P3 (106): Getting out of rvs.
P4 (120): Fake hammer for zakk. (rvs?)
P5 (176): Not info for reads yet, but cmt on wagon and scum.
P6 (207): Cmt to Chevre about wagon hopping playstyle.
P7 (233): Answr to Silver abt Chevre. Not sure abt scummyness yet.
P8 (265): Sees dragon as town. Answr Chevre (+Silver) abt rsv vote.
P9 (290): States that he has no reads this game and unvotes. (P10 (295): fluff)
P11 (358): Cmt abt claims.
P12 (445): After-lynch fluff.
-day2-
P13 (472): Gambit? comment. Likes that ties with Chevre are broken.
P14 (537): Restates that he has no reads this game.
P15 (540): Answrs to Silver (with cuss) abt no-reads. Likes tables in 518. Billi and dragon townies. Q. about dragon thinking friends tried to kill him.
P16 (580): Doesn't want game-setup discussions.

Overall, doesn't give much. Scum trying to hide could easily play like this.

Read: Null Read.

davesaz (dj_(2)) (2+9=11):

dj_: 1 (34) rsv + (94) post to replace out. No possible read.
dave:
P1 (192): sorry.
P2 (195): vote Chevre + comments: zakk, Silver.
P3 (213): Q. to Mahonster. (Hmmm. What reasons? Was this answered?)
P4..5 (214, 241): Qs. to Billi about fake hammer.
P6 (306): Reads, and buddy thoughts. (P7 (340): Modprod-cmt.)
P8 (364): Comment about wagons and claims. (Townie.)
P9 (367): Q. to Shiro about reads.
-day2-
P10 (527): Reads Billi as weak town based on 518. Cmt about BP claims vs. setup.
P11 (533): Q. to Quaroath abt reads.
P12 (534): Cmt about the reads table from 518.
P13 (577): Cmt about the lynch-eureka. Q. to Cheetory6. Cmt abt d1-flip vs. groupscum.
P14 (599): Answer to pisskop abt content over postcount.

Overall, gives a townie vibe. More on the Q. side of the Q'n'A scale. Doesn't give too much up... yet.

Read: Weak Town.

BlockyMan (6+1=7) -> Cheetory6 (7+13 = 20):

P1..2 (10, 12): No rsv play. Straight to vote zakk for scummy entrance. Really want's someone lynched right away.
P3 (198): Answers where experience is from (Kongregate).
P4..6 (199, 243, 357): Reinforces zakk vote based on good instincts. States that it's just guts. Sorry abt not posting.
-day2-
P7 (475): Replaces out (can't do 2 mafias at same time).
Cheetory6 (13):
P1 (553): Hi.
P2 (554): Votes Quaroath for wagon hopping at wrong moments and piggyback-ing reasons.
P3..9 (556..557,560,564,566,568,570): Converse with pisskop about playstyle. Then day1-wagon/lynch. (Q. too Aero.)
P10..12 (589..590,594): Cmt + Q. to Silver about playstyle and Blocky replacement.
P13 (595): A. to dave about reads.

Overall, Blocky seems like a newbie that didn't know what he was getting into. Null Read.
Cheetory6 comes off with an assertive style. Goes straight to scumhunting.

Read: Weak Town.

Quaroath (10+9=19):

P1 (23): rvs votes Mahonster for flippy reason on Silver.
P2 (74): Various answers to players. Mostly rvs.
P3 (179): Various cmts about serious play. Q. on Shire for stop L-1. Likes Silver. Serious vote on Chevre.
P4 (181): Fluff.
P5 (280): Pushes low-posters (Blocky, Maho, Shiro). Cmt on 1S-Vig to Silver.
P6 (302): Still pushes Maho & Shiro. Ties Maho with Chevre while buddying Silver & DS.
P7 (303): Fluff.
P8 (355): Not in favour of multiple L-1's for claims.
P9 (359): Repushes Blocky for no posts, and votes Blocky. (Goes thereby off of Chevre wagon.)
P10 (444): After-lynch fluff.
-day2-
P11 (466): Asks about Aero's lynch-tell. Xcuse for going off of Lynch wagon. Votes Blocky again.
P12..13 (468,470): No-kill fluff. No-kill theories fluff.
P14 (522): Xcuse. Wondering abt Aero vs. pisskop to zakk. Pushes Maho. Votes Grimm for no-show.
P15 (535): Answrs dave (&dragon) about no reads. Xcuse about reads usually coming on day3 and wanting town dead for reads. Silver & dragon = town.
P16 (573): Answrs Cheetory6 abt wagon-hopping. Answrs Aero abt similar. Wants answr from Aero abt lynch-tell.
P17 (574): Fluff about getting into reading soon.
P18 (576): Answrs Silver abt wagon-hopping.
P19 (579): Unvotes "since posts are happening".

Overall, doesn't get much into game (has good reasons for being low profile at beginning). Is much into pushing lurkers without ever getting answers, I believe.
Is a bit on the defense on day 2: Stalling.

Read: Weak Scum.

(Chevre (13): Lynched day 1. Serial Killer.)

P1 (11): rvs Aero vote.
P2 (22): Frst time explains creating wagons (answr to zakk).
P3 (32): Fake crumb abt 1S-Vig through dragon picture discussion.
P4 (113): Votes zakk to be on biggest wagon.
P5 (175): More expl. about wagons. Votes Aero. Defines scumtells and claims suspicions on zakk, Aero & Silver.
P6..9 (178,185,193): Argument with Silver about scumtell accs in 175.
P10 (259): Answrs pisskop & Shiro abt Silver argument.
P11..12 (263,267): Continues with Silver.
P13 (271): Claims 1S-Vig (points out crumb). Suspects Silver & zakk the most.

Overall, weak scum player who still should be partly looking for scum.

Flip: Serial Killer.

Grimmjow (5):

P1 (111): No rsv play. Straight to vote zakk for scummy entrance.
P2 (167): Answers Silver about zakk vote (::reeaassoonnss::) Detailed (townie) answr. Reads on 4 people, and vote Chevre. (Townie! but would know abt mislynch.)
P3 (200): Asks people to repost. Lazy. I don't like this post.
P4 (218): Asks pisskop abt Blocky vote. Townie.
P5 (361): Apologizes for not posting. Promises to post day after (jun26), but last post at least until jul2.

Overall, Comes in strong when he shows up, but doesn't have time for the game. Scum would not be so totally inattentive?

Read: Weak Town.

[Billi bilaði]

@Billi
What do the numbers mean?
Can you point to specific places where Cheetory is scum hunting?
Can you really get a town read on Grimmjow with so few posts?

Pedit to SW: You managed to do it anyway. I don't have time to look

right now

but your stance on me

seemed

to be an opportunistic switch. Could just be faulty memory though.

The numbers are as follows:
Px means Post no. x (i.e. I start to count each post of the player I'm iso'ing). Sort of parity checking.
(xxx) contains the numbers of the actual post within the game. (For ease of finding the comment again.)

Cheetory6's post no. 554 is where I think he is scumhunting (which is his 2nd post so "straight to scumhunting" comment).

Grimmjow has 5 posts, so very little to base read on. Posts 111, 167 & 218 read townie while 200 & 361 don't. So, I gave weak town for now (but no reads are fixed in stone).

[Billi bilaði]

Next 3 reads (3 left):

Short list:

Name (posts day1 + posts day2 = tot.posts)

Aeronaut (82+8=90): Read: Weak Town.
zakk (54+11=65): Read: Weak Scum.
Shiro (19+3=22): Read: Null Read.

Detailed list:

Aeronaut (82+8=90):

P1..4 (13,15,27,33): rvs votes Shiro. Fluff.
P5 (49): Q. to dragon abt zakk vote.
P6..8 (51,56,63): Fluff + ReQ.
P9 (72): Cmt abt rvs from Maho being late.
P10..11 (81,88): Throws sus on zakk for secret reasons. Ask abt zakk-Q. to pisskop and enforces scumread on zakk.
P12..14 (89,91,92): Fluff prod on zakk. States difference between scummy action and being scum. Unvotes Shiro.
P15 (93): Pushes 2nd time for dragon to answer abt zakk vote.
P16..18 (99,102,104): Doesn't understand zakks "BOOM" that stated Silver was on the money. Stance talk with zakk. A. to zakk abt reasons.
P19..20 (146,148): Q. to Silver abt wagon. A. to Silver abt zakk possible town. Cmts to Chevre, Grimm & pisskop abt L-1 wagon. Hates wagon.
P21..27 (154,155,158,159,160,201,222): A. to pisskop about longing to lynch. Fluff. Wants more people posting. Fluff.
P28 (223): Cmt abt Chevre's playstyle description being rubbish.
P29 (226): Wants posts from lurkers. dragon townie. Chevre scum.
P30..33 (227,230,232,237): Fluff Q. to pisskop. A. to pisskop abt top3 scum reads. "Why me?" abt being on list. Fluff.
P34 (239): A. to Silver abt scum reads: Chevre, zakk, Billi.
P35 (245): Cmt abt dragon doing fake hammers as town.
P36 (297): Q. to me abt not commenting on his suspicion of me.
P37 (298): A. to Silver abt dragon being townie. Q. to zakk abt Silver being town. Cmt to Silver abt Chevre fight. Not lynch Chevre after claim.
P38..39 (299,301): Votes zakk. Cmt abt zakk being scummy. Wants lynchwagon.
P40..42 (311,312,323): Wants Shiro to vote zakk over Chevre. Pushes zakk wagon.
P43..49 (324,326,328,329,331,334,337): Wants pisskop to switch to zakk from Chevre (which pisskop is not voting). Really pushes. Gets zakk vote from pisskop.
P50..53 (339,343,347,349): Starts pressing Silver and dragon for zakk-wagon. Claims no pref over zakk vs. Chevre, but still pushes for zakk b.of PR. Relents.
P54..55 (351,354): A. to Shiro abt zakk over Chevre.
P56 (378): Chides zakk for playing down.
P57 (380): Wants dragon to vote zakk.
P58..64 (386,387,391,392,393,395,397): The big realization. Votes Chevre.
P65..66 (416,419): After lynch Q. to pisskop abt no. of night kills.
P67..82 (422,424,426,429,431,435,436,438,440,448,450,452,455,457,460,463): After lynch Fluff.
-day2-
P83 (481): A. to Silver abt softclaim.
P84..85 (486,487): Cmt abt dragon being nightkilltarget and might be from friends.
P86 (489): A. to Silver abt softclaim again.
P87 (491): Quotes part of Shiro's 490.
P88..89 (516,552): zakk is null. Fluff.
P90 (571): A. to Cheetory6: Hasn't been reading day2. Doesn't think Quaroath is trying much.

Overall, super active. Strong focus on zakk. zakk and Aero can hardly both be scum. Really likes chatting. If scum then hides behind activity.

Read: Weak Town.

zakk (54+11=65):

P1 (7): rvs with flash & bang. Votes pisskop with an insult.
P2 (14): Fluff direction abt vote tags.
P3..4 (16,39): Q. to Chevre abt vote. Fluff abt exp.
P5..7 (40,43,44): Fluff rvs joke abt who are scum, and A. to Silver abt that.
P8 (50): A. to dragon abt serious vote on zakk. Claims rvs is over.
P9..10 (53,55): Fluff abt avatars. Fluff abt mafia exp.
P11 (58): A. to dragon based on auto-correct mistake. Excuses rvs playstyle.
P12 (59): Points out that Grimm hasn't posted yet.
P13 (61): Claims Aero is known scum and votes him. "Rvs is indeed over." (Why point that out?)
P14..15 (65,66): A. to pisskop abt auto-correcdt mistake.
P16 (70): Q. to Maho abt vote on Quaroath.
P17..18 (76,78): Says reasons for Aero vote are secret. But is happy to get a wagon on him.
P19 (79): Fluff: Gobbeldigook response to oicwydt from pisskop.
P20.21 (86,87): A.s to Aero & dragon with flippancy about secret reasons. Happy with pisskop and want's to know what it is he sees.
P22 (97): Indicates that the secret reason is that Aero is not voting with his suspicions.
P23 (98): Fluff.
P24 (100): Supports the indication. First A. abt why he wants pisskop to detail. Indicates he's townie stirring the pot.
P25..26 (103,105): Argument with Aero abt public stance. Is "onto Aero".
P27..28 (108,112): Fluff to pisskop about in-thread pics. Fluff to Grimm. (Last of the pics/avi!)
P29..30 (118,119): Claims VT and not happy with L-1. Asks to be unvoted.
P31 (121): Thinks he's not L-1 because of public Fake Hammer. Fluff abt not checking.
P32 (136): A. to (probably) dragon abt knowing the hammer was fake. AtE to stay in game. Fluff.
P33 (184): Reads with sus on Chevre. Fluff.
P34..35 (229,247): Sus's on Grimm & Chevre. Silver ss.
P36 (251): Q. to dragon abt fake hammer info (of which there was none).
P37 (258): dragon is town.
P38 (277): Wants Chevre to live and asks for unvotes. Want's no more L-1's. Claims hardship in getting into game, wants Qs.
P39 (278): Possible counter vig. claim cmt.
P40 (281): A. to Shiro abt vig's and how to handle claim.
P41 (289): Fluff.
P42 (304): Silver is town.
P43 (309): Agrees to noone would buddy to Chevre. Claims he is going to read game and make "real post tonight". (Jun25.)
P44 (370): A. to Silver abt change in game play. Excuse abt overwhelming. Statement abt no more L-1 wanted unless sure lynch.
P45 (371): A. to Silver abt lurkers not scum, lynching them is town lose. Still wants to spare Chevre.
P46 (372): A. to Aero abt how to decide if to lynch claimed vigs. Thinks players are illogical.
P47 (373): Fluff abhorrance abt pisskops statement that claims are good.
P48 (374): A. to Silver abt reread and real posting. Cmt abt Chevre to live. Asks about irregular special roles.
P49 (377): Is still reading through game (day later). Maybe wants to lynch Grimm.
P50 (381): A. to Aero about playstyle, and claims to still not having time to good read through.
P51 (400): Fluff abt Silver being right that zakk is town.
P52..54 (402,404,405): A. to pisskop abt intent to hammer Chevre. Wants Chevre to be able to shoot. Fluff.
-day2-
P55 (496): Cmt abt gambit mentioning being townie.
P56 (498): dragon town because of claim.
P57 (501): Fluff abt not reading because of possible being night killed.
P58..60 (503..505): A. to dragon abt town read on dragon.
P61 (514): A. to pisskop abt not expecting to be nk'd but still not reading because it could happen. Accusations of players being lazy.
P62 (539): A. to Silver abt lazy cmt. Disgusted abt. L-1. Claims to have actual thoughts at a later time.
P63 (544): Fluff pic in A. to Silver. (Has time to search for pics, but not read game.)
P64 (581): Detailed A's. to my suspections. 1 more claim abt reading soon.
P65 (582): Fluff Q. abt setup specs.

Overall, starts very active and agressive. Changes playstyle after L-1 (which can be understandable). Goes from 25% of posts to 11% after L-1.
Never has proper time for reading.

Read: Weak Scum.

Shiro (19+3=22):

P1 (8): semi?-rsv vote on zakk.
P2 (25): Q. to Blocky about reasons. Rvs abt logic.
P3 (125): Reads zakk as town. Unhappy abt fast wagon.
P4 (127): Takes zakk's word for no L-1 situation (which is wrong).
P5 (172): Asks Billi abt what to get from such a L-1. Thinks wagon was bad.
P6 (194): Gambit discussion with Quaroath.
P7 (202): Fluff.
P8 (211): Q. to Blocky about guts in voting. Q. to Chevre abt Silver (and zakk) vote-wobbling.
P9 (256): Fluff.
P10 (279): Doesn't buy into vig-claim. Isn't impressed with Chevres crumb statement.
P11 (285): A. to Quaroath about not voting much. Doesn't want to hammer a claimed PR.
P12 (310): Willing to hammer Chevre if he is put to L-1. (Should know he is already at L-1!) Doesn't trust Billi for L-1*2. Lukewarm on zakk.
P13 (321): Q. to pisskop about voting Chevre.
P14..15 (350..353): Q. to Aero abt zakk over Chevre.
P16 (366): Cmt. to Silver abt Blocky gutvoting.
P17 (368): A. to davesaz with Reads on players.
P18..19 (447,451): Missed out on hammer. After-lynch fluff.
-day2-
P20 (490): A. to dragon abt no-kill night.
P21 (519): Billi and zakk more like town on day2. Has no scum reads left.
P22 (598): Ready to support Grimmjow wagon.

Overall, Medium activity. Not attentive to L-1 situations. Cautious player. If scum then underplaying it.

Read: Null Read.

[Billi bilaði]

Last 3 reads:

Short list:

Name (posts day1 + posts day2 = tot.posts)

dragonspawn (52+38=90): Read: Medium Town.
SilverWolf (71+34=105): Read: Medium Town.
pisskop (90+26=116): Read: Weak Town.

Detailed list:

dragonspawn (52+38=90):

P1..3 (20,24,28): rvs votes billi. rvs abt Qua's no logic logic. pisskop's "hard defense".
P4..5 (30,36): Fluff.
P6..7 (41,48): Q. to zakk abt scum reads. Serious vote on zakk.
P8 (54): A. to zakk abt playing. "passion" vs. "pisskop" auto-corr mistake.
P9..10 (60,62): Q. to Aero abt which Q. to answer. Auto-correct correction.
P11..13 (82,109,117): Agrees with Aero abt what scum would say when no reason. Fluff.
P14..16 (122,123,124): Fake hammer. A. to Aero abt why sus on zakk.
P17..20 (126,128,130,143): Cmt to Shiro abt not letting fake hammer play out. Cmts abt L-1.
P21..23 (164,165,166): Q. to Grimm, Chevre & Billi abt zakk mobbing.
P24..26 (174,182,196): Likes Grimms reason for and votes Chevre. Fluff.
P27..29 (215,248,249): Cmt to dave abt fake hammer (not fake intent). Fluff.
P30..31 (250,252): Expl. abt fake hammer for info.
P32..35 (253,254,255,257): Q. to Shiro abt inadv quote in post. Fluff. Qs. to Blocky abt read. Cmt abt Shiro quote.
P36..37 (276,292): Vig. claims. Cmt to Maho abt not reading.
P38..40 (307,308,315): Hasn't noticed Maho. Read iso, doesn't see conn betw Chevre & Maho. Mixed feel abt Chevre being vig and if to lynch.
P41..42 (318,346): Cmts to pisskop abt hard-wagoning zakk.
P43..44 (376,379): Q. to zakk abt who to lynch. Likes Silver & Aero.
P45..52 (428,430,432,434,442,446,456,462): After lynch fluff.
-day2-
P53..55 (467,469,471): Fluff.
P56 (473): A. to Maho abt no conn to Chevre but still could be scum.
P57 (478): Cmt to Silver abt readlists to be done.
P58..60 (479,482,492): Q. & A. with pisskop abt Aero vote. Tells abt nk-attempt sus on familiars. Cmt abt PR.
P61..63 (493,497,499): Cmts abt Watcher and sus. Cmt abt gambit.
P64..68 (500,507,510,512,513): Plays down zakk in townreading dragon. Didn't think he'd be nk'd. Doesn't like bad reasoning. Silver is town. Fluff.
P69..71 (515,520,521): Likes zakk. Q. to Silver abt closer looks. Fluff abt tables.
P72..74 (523,524,526): Reminds self abt dave. Q. to Quar abt Aero vs. pisskop. Likes Grimm but wants to see more.
P75..77 (528,529,530): 518 not alignment indicator. Qs. to Quaro & Billi.
P78..80 (532,583,586): A. to Silver abt why liking Grimm. Fluff.
P81..83 (602,606,610): Votes dave. A's. & Q. to dave abt why.
P84 (618): Doesn't remember why liked Grimm.
P85 (621): A. to Chee on dave votes.
P86 (633): Has scum vibe on Chee.
P87 (638): Effort not indic. of Alignm. re Billi.
P88..89 (640,644): Votes Maho to get responses. A. to Maho abt reason.
P90 (648): Q. to Quar abt Maho's scum-list answer.

Overall, stays on top of game. Questions to most other players. Coming out as PR is more likely town than not. Mafia must have tried nk,
would a member of mafia come out with such gambit when realize that nk failed? Would mafia have planned for that possibility?

Read: Medium Town.

SilverWolf (71+34=105):

P1..7 (6,31,42,52,57,67,71): rvs vote Aero. Fluff.
P8 (73): Q. to Maho abt Quaroath vote if rvs.
P9..10 (75,80): Q. to zakk abt why Aero scum. Fluff.
P11..13 (85,90,96): A. to Aero abt "this is what scum says". Plays it down. Asks Aero why he doesn't vote for zakk if sus. Fluff.
P14..15 (131,138): Q. to dragon about fake hammer. zakk less likely scum. Qs. to Chevre & Grimm. To pisskop: bud-wagon less likely.
P16..25 (147,177,180,183,186,187,188,190,191,203): Finds Chevre most sus. Votes Chevre, battle begins.
P26 (209): Q. to Maho abt Chevre.
P27 (221): Blocky's iso crap.
P28 (238): Q. to pisskop abt scum candidates.
P29..30 (244,246): Townreads dragon for fake hammer. Expl. closer.
P31..34 (262,264,266,268): Chevre battle continues (which includes A. to Maho).
P35..37 (273,275,284): Qs. abt multiple vigs. Fluff.
P38..40 (288,294,296): Q. to Billi abt L-1's. FoS. Pushes lurkers.
P41 (300): Qs. to Aero abt Chevre war cmt.
P42 (305): A. to Quaroath abt Chevre/Maho connection.
P43..44 (313,314): Reads. Push lurkers again.
P45..47 (319,341,342): Response to pisskops zakk-wagon abt not moving vote. Points Aero to 313 and points out scum candidates.
P48..49 (345,348): Discussions abt vigs.
P50..52 (362,363,369): Qs. to Blocky & zakk. Cmt to Shiro abt Blocky.
P53..55 (383,384,385): A. to zakk abt Chevre should be lynched. Townreads on dragon, Aero, zakk. A. to zakk abt lurkers.
P56..58 (390,396,399): A. to Aero abt big realization. No issue with lynch.
P59..61 (421,425,433): After lynch talk: Don't talk abt setup.
P62..71 (437,439,441,443,449,453,454,458,459,461): After lynch fluff.
-day2-
P72..73 (474,476): Wants input from others before cmts on night and accs. Will do re-reads. Calls for Grimm. Fluff.
P74..77 (488,494,509,511): Claims not softing on PR on day1. Thinks dragon is town.
P78..79 (517,531): Cmt on zakk being defeatist. Reads. Q. to dragon why he likes Grimm.
P80..82 (538,541,542): Pushes Maho for more content and reads. More cmt on zakk not playing while could be dead. A. to Maho abt content and dragon being town.
P83..84 (543,547): Votes Grimm and wants a wagon. A. to Billi about lingo.
P85..86 (548,551): Notes zakk playstyle change. Pushes Grimm & Blocky. Chart good but not alignment indi. Fluff.
P87..88 (572,575): Chevre wagon+lynch leaves us with day1 again. Q. to Quaroath abt hop-off wagon.
P89..90 (578,585): Don't want talk abt setup. Wants Grimm replaced. Doesn't find scum.
P91..92 (587,588): Sees Grimm & Cheetory as possible scum. Chee as scum might clear zakk.
P93..94 (592,593): A. to Chee abt Blocky and zakk not on same team.
P95..97 (600,607,612): Votes dave for being fakey. Is happy with vote because of response. A. to dave about sus + reads on Qua & Billi.
P98..99 (615,617): A. to dave abt agression. Warning to Billi abt Chee and surpriced abt wt on Grimm agrees with Qua & Maho reads. V/LA.
P100..102 (624,626,630): Cmt to Chee abt not being self.
P103..104 (649,650): Cmt to Maho abt reads being necessary so giver can be read.
P105 (651): Cmt abt Chee playstyle.

Overall, very active, very townie. Pushes most everyone. Mindful abt not giving scum to much to work with.

Read: Medium Town.

pisskop (90+26=116):

P1..13 (3,4,17,26,29,35,37,38,45,46,64,69,77): Fluff. rvs votes Aero. Fluff. Q. abt Auto-correct mistake. Fluff.
P14..18 (83,84,95,107,110): Cmts abt secret reasons being valid if expl. later. Fluff.
P19..23 (116,129,132,134,135): Wants zakk to claim (L-1). Fake hammer cmt. Speed wagon buds cmt. Q. to Billi for late-question.
P24..26 (141,142,145): "Too tryhard" to Billi. Then expl.
P27..31 (149,150,153,156,157): Misunderstands Aero cmt abt lurkers. Thinks zakk was a little fake abt reaction.
P32..36 (161,162,169,197,204): Cmt to Aero abt scum being a mix of lurkers and posters. Fluff.
P37..38 (205,206): Q. to Billi abt L-1 reactions. dragon not so town. Doesn't agree with Chevre abt Maho late-rvs vote. Silver town. Chevre scum.
P39..43 (210,216,217,219,220): Pushes lurkers. Votes Blocky. Q. to dragon abt fake hammer vs. intent. Pushes Grimm. Cmt abt lurkers.
P44..46 (224,225,228): Aero and Chevre not buddies. 175 marked for later.
P47..50 (231,234,235,236): Scum list: zakk, Chevre Aero/zakk. A. to Aero abt why him.
P51..53 (260,261,272): Q. + cmts to Chevre abt playstyle.
P54..58 (274,286,287,316,317): Cmt to Silver abt possibility of >1 vig. Fluff. More abt 1shot vigs. No major loss.
P59 (320): Quotes Maho's Chevre posts without comment. Why?
P60 (322): A. to Shiro abt reservations abt Chevre, not sure if to end day.
P61..63 (325,327,330): A. to Aero abt wagon. Corrects Aero misunderst. Pushers lurkers.
P64..67 (332,333,335,336): A. to Aero with Q. (I don't understand.) Asks Aero if to go on zakk wagon. A. to Aero abt pushing lurkers. Votes zakk.
P68..70 (352,356,360): "Claims are a good thing."
P71..74 (375,389,394,398): Normal games don't have non-normal roles. Quotes Aero realization without comment. Willing to hammer. Intent.
P75..84 (401,403,406,407,408,409,410,411,412,413): Cmts abt zakks fluff, and how game will play out. Lynches Chevre.
P85..90 (415,417,418,420,423,427): After lynch fluff. Cmt on Aero abt setup spec confusion.
-day2-
P91..97 (477,480,483,484,485,495,502): Votes Aero. A.'n'Qs. to dragon abt why & soft claims.
P98 (506): Cmt abt SK mimics.
P99 (508): Clears that Q. about likely nk was to zakk.
P100..101 (525,550): Votes Grimm for real. Fluff.
P102..108 (555,558,559,561,562,563,565): Likes Cheetory6's vote on Quaroath? Or am I misunderstanding? Doesn't like the Chevre wagon for how it came to be.
P109..113 (567,569,591,596,597): A. to Cheetory6: Quaroath is null at best, + fluff.
P114 (609): Q. to dave(?) abt playstyle.
P115 (627): Cmt abt Cheetory6 playstyle.
P116 (636): Cmt abt Shiro's Q. abt if scum can be worker-bees.

Overall, super active. Many short posts instead of blocks (like he answers directly without planning responses). Likes game theory.

Read: Weak Town.

[/quote]

[Billi bilaði]

Aeronaut goes from >17% of posts on day 1 to <5% on day 2.
Basically only interacts with SilverWolf & dragonspawn on day 2 then goes V/LA but...

Why this drastic change Aero?

[Billi bilaði]

PS: Your only read today, Aero, seems to be to take zakk up to null read (which means I now have you reading 3 of 11 players). Are there anymore on the way?

[Billi bilaði]

No, I didn't think I was likely to be killed, but neither did dragonspawn. And it's happened to me before. And I swore to never do it again. I personally think I'm a high contender for a lynch candidate, given the amount of lazy play this game, and the fact that I've already claimed my role and its just a VT i.e. an "acceptable loss"

so I have no delusions about certain players being lazy enough to just be like "well, let's lynch zakk I guess" at some point

No, we are not lynching you because you are a VT. Please stop with the defeatist attitude.

dragon-I'll get back to you on that soon, Grimmjow is definitely a scumread, Shiro leans town, more to come

I don't have a defeatist attitude at all

I'm just sardonically commenting on the lazy L-1 that forced me to claim

, along with somebody's (busy or I'd check whose) opinion that lynching me would be better SOLELY because I'd already claimed

It's disgusting.

I'll say more later and I'll have actual thoughts about actual people at that point

Im sorry if Im more concerned with all the softing going on this game.

Are you, zakk and pisskop, talking about the same thing? ("Lazy" vs. "Softing"?)

You have 2 reads each today. Both are active players, but day 2 gives me very little.

So, how do we get out of this lazy softness?

[Billi bilaði]

V/LA for a few days while my computer gets fixed. Sorry guys

I did fire up an older PC today though, so I am going to be reading up on what's been missed tonight.

A suspicious mind might say: Convenient.

[Billi bilaði]

I'm thinking I don't see why naming suspects is going to make them change their ways.

Ok yeah honestly it kind of is a faulty view point considering everything.

It's too late for me to be able to put together a half decent explanation for my placements, but I'll just throw this out there and wait for a discussion with Quaroath.

My current

Dream Scum Team vol 1

Quaroath
Dave
Shiro

I'm either very right or very wrong.

Has there not been time yet to elaborate on this yet?

What if you are neither very right nor very wrong?

[Billi bilaði]

...
So are we interested in an on the wagon or off wagon flips?

Quaroth or Grimm/dave lynches plz.

Well, Grimm was just replaced, so no lynch on him for the time being.
dave is a lurker in my book but I have him as slight town. Possible wagon material.
Quaroath is one of my scum reads, so, I would support a wagon and consider a lynch there.

[Billi bilaði]

I did not think pisskop bringing it up was scummy, as I have seen him take an approach to "low activity" in the past as either alignment.

I'm actually going to retract this a bit. Bringing it up wasn't scummy per se, but failing to vote it does not match a recent town game (as an alt). That made me wonder what his voting record is, and it's pretty darn sparse given how many posts he has. It seems to be an unusually safe approach.
VOTE: pisskop

pisskop placed the most votes on day 1: 4. (Only 1 of which was rvs.)
2 votes already on day 2 that I've noticed.

How many votes would you have expected him to place already?

[Billi bilaði]

Cheetory, any other thoughts on reading in?

Gonna be less lazy in this game soon, but that was the extent of my thoughts from skimming things I felt like skimming yesterday.

You've already matched Dave's output, just about.

Dave, Grim, and blocky. the three lukuing musketteers.

Time for a quick dropby before I take out the trash. SW,

I was annoyed at being portrayed to a replacement as doing less than someone with 5 posts.

That was a blatant mis-statement of my activity. Yes, I got annoyed by that. Your observation that I'm less active than some other games is true, but it is missing part of the background info. I'm a logic player who adapts my play to the specific game. Lack of logic-oriented material throws me. I need inconsistencies to generate solid scum reads. I probably need to lower my standards a bit and jump in on smaller logic gaps, because I had scum nailed 2 days earlier than their actual lynch in a recent game based on something being illogical.

Wasn't the statement that Chee had matched your output? Not that you were doing less than 5 posts?
Wasn't Chee at 20+ posts at that time?
So, did you get annoyed for the wrong reason?

(Then he calls you a lurker at the end of the post - but that has little to do with content measurement.)

[Billi bilaði]

I did not think pisskop bringing it up was scummy, as I have seen him take an approach to "low activity" in the past as either alignment.

I'm actually going to retract this a bit. Bringing it up wasn't scummy per se, but failing to vote it does not match a recent town game (as an alt). That made me wonder what his voting record is, and it's pretty darn sparse given how many posts he has. It seems to be an unusually safe approach.
VOTE: pisskop

So, here you are voting pisskop for not voting you when you thought he had said that you had less posts/content than Blocy.
But pisskop was saying that Cheetory had exented your input.
So, are you still happy with this vote?

[Billi bilaði]

Hair splitting anyone?

I seriously do not think so.
It looks to me that you got angry for a misunderstanding, and you carry that anger forward without double checking meanings, and end with a vote on (from my viewpoint) the totally wrong reason.

[Billi bilaði]

Grimmjow – This guy is just … 5 posts all game, and hasn’t posted since the 25th. The slot smells, regardless of who replaces simply because he coasted.)

Cheetory6 (Benefit of the doubt replacement the silent block. - I like the engagement so far.)

Why was it okay for blocky to coast and not grimmjow? Why are you giving my slot the botd and not his?

Fixed that quote for ya. This is horseshit. You were already in the game and active/hunting. That's why I have your slot weak town. Grimmjow didn't try and hadn't been replaced. Slots that lurk smell until the person in the slot behaves otherwise. Jazzmyn might change my mind, might not.

I do not agree with this view, Both Blocky and Grimm were relatively silent, but you're calling Blocky's rep ok while doing the opposite "no matter what" for Grimm.

Pretty sure I didn't call Blocky okay.

Sorry about not posting. Anyway I think zakk is scum. Thats that. Get him out.

Ate you capable of more than sorry for not posting, zakk needs to go? I mean even your RVS vote said this...

VOTE: blocky

Someone tell me what the big thing Aero saw was plz.

Boo to f'd up post alignment flip analysis for me. God damn SK's, always screwing stuff up.

VOTE: blocky I see no reason to not put this back for now.

How the FUCK did I call blocky's rep ok?

To answer you and Cheeto, Cheeto was already active, asking questions, and trying to solve the game when I made that post. It wasn't like blocky JUST replaced. Cheeto replaced in ~100 posts earlier. Jazz didn't replace until after the post. Quit manipulating the timeline.

Are we talking here about "rep" being "replacement" or something about Blocky's content?
You absolutely called Cheetory (the replacement) ok (but not the other).

So is it only I confusing the meaning of the word "rep", or are the cuss-words sign of some hidden guilt?

[Billi bilaði]

For almost anyone growing up in america, rep means reputation not replacment. Quit ham handing twisting my words.

Been to (US of) America. But only about 1,5 times (if I count walking outside an airport to get to a connection flight to Canada (which I've visited more often)).

The context to me seemed to be clear as "replacement". I stand corrected.

[Billi bilaði]

Hair splitting anyone?

I seriously do not think so.
It looks to me that you got angry for a misunderstanding, and you carry that anger forward without double checking meanings, and end with a vote on (from my viewpoint) the totally wrong reason.

Read this post and the preceding page or so.
Player questions my contributions.
I rebut said question.
Player effectively says I'm lying in the rebuttal.
I get pissed off about it.
I'm town in the linked game.

Kindly drop the matter.

Also you seem to have missed some of the action, given you asked whether I liked the vote. Obviously I didn't.

I asked if you still liked the vote that you put on pisskop. The answer "Obviously I didn't" tells me that we are not understanding each other.
Well, I see a logical flaw in you case, and can accept that you do not want to discuss that further. Matter is dropped for now.

[Billi bilaði]

That was a roller coaster ride of abt 10 pages.
Must sleep on this since it's almost 3am.

[Billi bilaði]

Mahonsters iso posts from 759 to 808 are the ones that make me support his lynch.
First 2 that laugh about that he has no meta to read.
Then 4 where he tries hard to get an outing of pisskops PR softing.

So, I could put him at L-1 when it gets closer to deadline.

[Billi bilaði]

VOTE: Mahonster

[Billi bilaði]

Can Billi or somebody else explain this better to me?

Mahonsters iso posts from 759 to 808 are the ones that make me support his lynch.
First 2 that laugh about that he has no meta to read.
Then 4 where he tries hard to get an outing of pisskops PR softing.

So, I could put him at L-1 when it gets closer to deadline.

I said "lol" at Silver noticing I didn't have any meta. Is the laughing part scum or is the no meta part scum? Because I know people that say Meta means nothing anywat, so having none can't possibly indicate that I'm scum because the other game I'm in isn't completed for me.

And can the 2nd part about my 4 other posts be explained better? I want to be sure I understand this and why you think the motivation behind it was scum.

The first 2 posts (of the 6) are no meta vs. lol. It rubs me the wrong way. "You can't read me!" kind of lol.

The latter 4 posts are repeated hammering of insisting that a claim is made on a player that 2 players have stated should not be revealed as it stands. Not town motivated.

[Billi bilaði]

VT.

So everything I do this game pisses people off, but please don't lynch me yet.

I promise you'll understand soon why some of my actions appear the way that they do for you guys.

None of you know me. I'm new to this forum. Don't let that influence your vote please.

If anything we still have 5 days until deadline, and we can afford a mislynch, but it makes the game that much harder for town.

QFT

regardless of his alignment, you guys need to stop being so cliquey and fickle.

real talk.

that's one reason i stopped posting so much, because i was scared of being quick-lynched for no reason other than that i was not a familiar face.

Nobody has been quick-lynched in this game. Still, scaredy-talk of it pops up regularly. Quick-wagon is not a quick-lynch in my book.

I'm new here too, with 2 completed games that are a year old, and haven't played with anyone on this game before.

Why all this meta-playing from you?

[Billi bilaði]

Oh hey, I should do this too since posts are happening

VOTE: unvote

@BlockyMan, Mahonster... ya'll ain't moved votes since RVS... surely there is something else to go on for you ... are your votes where you think they should be at this point in the game. If not, who, and if so.. why?

@Shiro - you fall into this too pretty much, as all you did was unvote your RVS on Zakk when the wagon built. Same question to you.

Also, @silverwolf... I've seen it in a couple games - heck it's even codified into an open - C9++ can have a full vig and a 1 shot. (Or even two full vigs and a 1 shot)

Hi Quaroth, why did you ask these questions here?

Because I prefer people to put their votes down

, as it is unambiguous as to who they suspect, and scum tend to not like placing votes for that reason -

it leaves trails

. You don't have a problem with people not taking off RVS votes once the game is well outside of RVS and avoiding stepping on toes/taking a stance on the records?

Why do you want to know why I asked these questions?

You are 1 of my 2 scum reads, so I'm iso'ing you... and I don't get this:

Why do you unvote "since posts are happening"? (This is at the beginning of the day. And you didn't even remember where your vote was.)

And then you state that you "prefer people to put their votes down,".

Didn't you like the trail you were putting down?

I want to keep my vote here, at least for a little while.

VOTE: Quaroath

[Billi bilaði]

Ozgin: Maho changed his vote in post 619 from davesaz to Quaroath in post 798, if I'm not mistaken.

Thanks for the heads up. Fixed.

[Billi bilaði]

Aren't jokes usually funny?

Probably only to a similar ratio that music is entertaining.
Much of it stinks. Much of it is tolerated. A small part has you enraptured.

[Billi bilaði]

As zakk is the other scum read I have, I can support this wagon:

VOTE: zakk

[Billi bilaði]

Votes on day 2.
(I put the no. of votes each player cast behind his name in the first column.)
(And the number that is sometimes after the name of the voter, is the post where the vote was retracted without putting it anywhere else.)
(The double braces around dave's no. of votes means his vote was not active at the end of the day.)

Players	Day 1 voting (Votes)
dragonspawn (5)
SilverWolf (9)
pisskop (5)	14: 709 Cheet 966	16: 791 dave 840	18: 813 zakk	20: 927 Silver 933	21: 960 dragon	22: 961 Silver 1018
Aeronaut (2)	2: 477 pisskop	27: 1187 Cheet
Mahonster (2)	10: 640 dragon	11: 647 Quaroath	12: 665 Silver	13: 673 Aero	23: 1028 dragon	24: 1095 Silver 1151	25: 1110 pisskop	26: 1147 Billi	30: 1257 Silver	31: 1258 Shiro
davesaz ((1))	7: 600 Silver	8: 602 dragon	9: 619 Maho	15: 762 Silver 844	19: 861 pisskop
Cheetory6 (3)	1: 466 Quaroath
Billi bilaði (3)
Quaroath (3)	6: 554 Cheet	17: 798 Maho	28: 1221 Billi	29: 1222 zakk
Jazzmyn (1)	3: 522 Quaroath 579	4: 525 pisskop 855	5: 543 Silver
zakk (2)	32: 1284 Shiro	33: 1295 Aero	34: 1308 Silver	35: 1310 Jazz	36: 1311 Billi	37: 1316 dragon	38: 1321 pisskop
Shiro (2)

[Billi bilaði]

The table should have started like this:

Players (Votes)	Day 2 voting

[Billi bilaði]

Wagons on day 2:
1 L-3: Maho: dragon, Qua,

Silver

, Aero
2 L-2: pisskop: Cheet, dave, zakk,

dragon

, Silver
3 L-1: Maho: Qua, Aero, dragon,

Silver

, pisskop, Billi
4 L-1: Maho: Qua, Aero, dragon, pisskop, Silver,

Shiro

5 L-0: zakk: Shiro, Aero, Silver, Jazz, Billi, dragon,

pisskop (lynches)

[Billi bilaði]

Reads day 2 (if any reads are wrong, then I would like to know):

Reader\Player	dragon	Silver	pisskop	Aeronaut	Mahonster	davesaz	Cheet	Billi	Quaroath	Jazz	zakk	Shiro
dragonspawn	XXXXX	st (mt)	mt (ss (mt))	(mt)	ws	ws				nr (wt)	wt (nr (wt ms))
SilverWolf	st (wt)	XXXXX	mt	(mt)	ms (nr (ms (nr)))	ws (nr (ms))	wt (ws)	mt (ws (ms))	ws	ms (ws)	ws (wt)	nr (wt)
pisskop		(st)	XXXXX	mt (ms (ws))		ws	(ws)		ws	ws	wt (ms (ws))
Aeronaut	mt	mt	mt	XXXXX	ms	ws (nr)	ws (ms (wt))	wt (ws)		ws	wt (nr (ms))	nr
Mahonster	st			ms	XXXXX	ws (ms (ws))		mt	ms	nr (mt)		ms
davesaz	mt	st	mt (ms)	wt (ms (mt))	ms (wt)	XXXXX	wt (ws)	mt (wt)	ws	ws	ws	ws
Cheetory6	mt	wt	ws	ws			XXXXX	mt	nr (ss)		(ss)	nr (ws)
Billi bilaði	st (mt)	st (mt)	st (wt)	wt	nr	wt	wt	XXXXX	ws	wt	ws (ms)	nr
Quaroath	mt	st	st (mt)	ms	ms	nr	wt (ws)	wt	XXXXX	ms (ws)	wt	nr
Jazzmyn	mt	st	nr (ws)	ws	ws	nr	nr	mt	nr	XXXXX	ms (wt (ss))	nr
zakk	st (mt)	wt (st (mt))	(ms)	ms	mt (wt)		mt	mt	ms	ws (nr)	XXXXX	ms
Shiro	(mt)	(mt)	(wt)	mt	ws (nr)	(nr)		mt (ws)	(wt)	ws (nr)	wt (ws (mt))	XXXXX

Reads fully in braces () are unchanged reads from day 1.

[Billi bilaði]

So, has anyone played with this Traitor version before?
I found the Wiki page and am trying to understand this role.

Do we assume that the Traitor knew who his teammates were? I.e. should we be reading the traitors reads in detail?

Reader\Player	dragon	Silver	pisskop	Aeronaut	Mahonster	davesaz	Blocky	Billi	Quaroath	Chevre	Grimm	zakk	Shiro
Grimmjow			ws							ss	XXXXX	wt ( ss )

Reader\Player	dragon	Silver	pisskop	Aeronaut	Mahonster	davesaz	Cheet	Billi	Quaroath	Jazz	zakk	Shiro
Jazzmyn	mt	st	nr (ws)	ws	ws	nr	nr	mt	nr	XXXXX	ms (wt (ss))	nr

[Billi bilaði]

Jazzmyn only does 2 in depth reads on players, her top 2 scum reads (out of 3), before giving it up for going with the game as it flows.
In 767 it is zakk, who has now flipped VT.
In 864 it is Mahonster.
We don't get a read on the 3rd scum read, Aeronaut.

If she knew her scum buddies, would they have been put up there to be read so easily? (Need to meta-dive.)

[Billi bilaði]

Oh hey, I should do this too since posts are happening

VOTE: unvote

@BlockyMan, Mahonster... ya'll ain't moved votes since RVS... surely there is something else to go on for you ... are your votes where you think they should be at this point in the game. If not, who, and if so.. why?

@Shiro - you fall into this too pretty much, as all you did was unvote your RVS on Zakk when the wagon built. Same question to you.

Also, @silverwolf... I've seen it in a couple games - heck it's even codified into an open - C9++ can have a full vig and a 1 shot. (Or even two full vigs and a 1 shot)

Hi Quaroth, why did you ask these questions here?

Because I prefer people to put their votes down

, as it is unambiguous as to who they suspect, and scum tend to not like placing votes for that reason -

it leaves trails

. You don't have a problem with people not taking off RVS votes once the game is well outside of RVS and avoiding stepping on toes/taking a stance on the records?

Why do you want to know why I asked these questions?

You are 1 of my 2 scum reads, so I'm iso'ing you... and I don't get this:

Why do you unvote "since posts are happening"?

(This is at the beginning of the day. And you didn't even remember where your vote was.)

And then you state that you "prefer people to put their votes down,".

Didn't you like the trail you were putting down?

I want to keep my vote here, at least for a little while.

VOTE: Quaroath

I don't think I ever got an answer to this post.

[Billi bilaði]

I dont care who we lynch. Follow the cop

Aren't we looking for at least 2 scum still?
Basically, that means we are in the familiar territory of the newbie queue games? 2 scum out of 9 players?
Scum have a fair chance of winning those games, right?
So, we wouldn't want to lynch just anybody?

But, today:
dragonspawn, pisskop, Aeronaut no-votees.
Mahonster is maybe in that category as well, based on Jazz's read. Or what?
davesaz (wt), Cheetory6 (wt), Quaroath (ws) and Shiro (nr) are then my candidates for lynching.

So, my list from top votee to not votee:
Quaroath
Shiro
davesaz
Cheetory6
Mahonster
Aeronaut
pisskop
dragonspawn

[Billi bilaði]

who are your buddies?

I am an arsonist so I am solo evil. My insticts for burning mafia though are not liking how fast dave jumped to support the votes of the two confirm townies of the game.

other than that sorry for being of no use :/

Too bad I am town Mah

Is shiro the type to troll this hard?
I really can't tell.

It really depends on my mood.

Now I'm confused.
I thought when I saw post 1370 that Shiro was trolling.
1381 only solidified that understanding, so I didn't look up the Arsonist role on the Wiki until now that I see it's gathering votes. (I haven't seen this role before, which contributed to me not taking 1370 seriously.)

Why would anybody ever give up a SK role when only at L-2?

[Billi bilaði]

So, is it a gambit to hide a scum flip behind a ridiculous claim?

Can we get some serious posts about this at L-1:

VOTE: Shiro

[Billi bilaði]

I have been metareading Jazz a bit.
She seems to null read her scumbuddies unless they are playing poorly.
She only has one recent scum game where she only gives scum reads on townies and null reads on the rest:
Open 601 (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=62219)
One older scum game I found had a scum read on 1 scum partner she said was playing liky newbie (initially gave an either/or read on Neopi), and others were null:
Mini 857 (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=12398)

Her scum reads this game were

zakk (VT)

Aeronaut (who is cop-confirmed town or godfather)
Mahonster
(pisskop at first. Who must be town because he rolestopped Silver)

Her null reads were
(pisskop later)
davesaz
Cheetory6
Quaroath
Shiro

Her town reads were

Silverwolf (TVig)

dragonspawn
Billi

[Billi bilaði]

Hellz yea

I'm gonna be posting for real when I get home tonight, hopefully.

I'd be OK with Qua or Shiro I think. Dave kinda is bothering me a bit with that last post though

I am kind of waiting for Aero to do a real post.

[Billi bilaði]

Who are your top 3 scum billi?

Quaroath tops that list. Slippery in answers, but many others seem to want to give him benefit of the doubt.
Then I have Mahonster & Shiro at null read. Both have answered rather well, although I still frown a bit upon joking about being scum.

davesaz & Cheetory6 have "weak town" reading - and the warning from SilverWolf to not trust Cheetory is still remembered.
Aeronaut also had "weak town", but now has a cop read, so only chance to be scum is if he is godfather.

You and pisskop are at "strong town".

[Billi bilaði]

I've kind of stalled here at he moment. Not sure what to ask and people are being quiet

lol to give the scum chance to lurk.

Aren't you taking part in giving that chance?

[Billi bilaði]

My records show this:

• [L-2] davesaz (3):
  Quaroath, Shiro, dragonspawn
  
  [L-2] Shiro (3):
  pisskop, davesaz, Billi bilaði
  
  [L-4] Quaroath (1):
  Mahonster
  
  

Currently Not Voting:

Aeronaut, Cheetory6

(expired on 2015-07-28 13:45:00) until Day 3 is over. With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

[Billi bilaði]

So... is fake hammer 2 resolved since davesaz has responded?

[Billi bilaði]

Reading pisskop from day 3, there is no indication that he used the watcher ability. (He would then probably have used up his commuter power, not that it matters.)

dragon, Aero & Maho are the "boyscouts" now, so Cheetory6, Shiro & I are the lynch-pool.
It's iso time.

[Billi bilaði]

Quaroath's interactions:

Dead players:
No. of interactions, player, posts:
10 Silver 74, 179, 181, 280, 302, 576, 639, 674, 675, 1249
6 davesaz 535, 794, 811, 1084, 1249, 1377
5 zakk74, 522, 787, 1249, 1256
1 Chevre 1 179
1 grimm 1 522

[Billi bilaði]

Quaroath's interactions:

Does anyone have meta on Quaroath how he interacts with scumbuddies?

Dead players:

Player	No. of posts	Posts
Silver	10	74, 179, 181, 280, 302, 576, 639, 674, 675, 1249
pisskop	10	355, 771, 774, 845, 1021, 1032, 1087, 1252, 1390, 1391
dave	6	535, 794, 811, 1084, 1249, 1377
zakk	5	74, 522, 787, 1249, 1256
Chevre	1	179
Jazz/Grimm	1	522

Alive players:

Player	No. of posts	Posts
Mahonster	15	23, 74, 280, 302, 522, 647, 799, 800, 803, 806, 807, 1249, 1382, 1383, 1384
Cheet/Blocky	11	280, 359, 466, 573, 774, 789, 794, 795, 799, 1272, 1273
Aero	6	74, 179, 573, 691, 807, 1086
dragon	6	302, 468, 470, 535, 639, 655
Shiro	3	179, 280, 302
Billi	3	639, 863, 1375

Quaroath's reads:
First read:
Town: dragon,

Silver, pisskop

Weak Town: Billi,

zakk

, Cheet
Null: Shiro,

dave

Scum: Aero,

Grimm (Jazz)

, Maho

Second read:
No hang: dragon,

Silver, pisskop

, Billi,

dave

Null: Shiro,

Jazz

Scum: "Aero or Cheet", Maho,

zakk

I and Cheetory6 are the only ones that move between the reads: I am put in the "No hang" pool, while Cheetory is put in "possible scum against Aero".

[Billi bilaði]

PS: I made a mess of hitting buttons while editing and previewing, so post 1466 was just in first draft stage when it inadvertently was posted.

[Billi bilaði]

Here are the interactions I found from Shiro, Cheetory and me to Quaroath.

Shiro vs. Quaroath:
3 posts: 194, 285, 310
Reads: wt (368), possible scum with Maho (1078), possible town over Maho (1201, 1373, 1394, 1417, 1419)

Cheetory6 vs. Quaroath:
6 posts: 554, 740, 782, 793, 796, 1262
Reads: ss (554), waffling (709)
About Qua: 566, 570, 689, 709, 843, 852, 1189, 1198, 1209

Billi vs. Quaroath:
4 posts: 862, 1099, 1221, 1358
Reads: ws (611)
About Qua: 611, 761, 1361, 1438

[Billi bilaði]

I'm VT also.

[Billi bilaði]

Well, if you do, you should do it twice.

[Billi bilaði]

The magic of computers.

[Billi bilaði]

I'm starting to get surprised there was any room for us VT's in the game.

[Billi bilaði]

So, with all these roles, are we sure that there is only one scum left?

[Billi bilaði]

You have absolutely no interest in this game at all, do you Aero?
You didn't bother to vote so much as once for the last game day; and today you don't bother to read the game to notice that only 1 vote has been cast.

Or are you just feigning a godfathers disinterest as you have been semi-cleared of evildom?

There is really no point in playing this game if nobody wants to read anything, speculate upon information and/or questions put forth, or present a case for a lynch.

So, where are the dice to throw to just get it over with and make a random hanging of the remaining three, since this is just about finishing the game in as short a while as possible?

[Billi bilaði]

Well, I miss SilverWolf. She was playing.

[Billi bilaði]

Probably a combination of bulletproof and godfather, vs. SilverWolf being very active and playing this game hard.

[Billi bilaði]

Did Aero ever give a read on Quaro? I can't find it in my notes.

[Billi bilaði]

...
Billi, can you explain what you're talking about when you say me and mah are "boyscouts" in 1465?

It's just a word for innocents. I could also have called you, dragon and mah "the 3 musketeers".
Or the "untouchables".

[Billi bilaði]

It's like I literally just said this last page.
My gut says Aero but I don't know if it makes sense for the setup to have a godfather...

I've seen some roles in this game that I've never seen before, but where I regularly play, a cop and a godfather go pretty much hand in hand.
Is it not so here? Why would't the setup make sense with a godfather?

[Billi bilaði]

It seems by the wiki page that the chance of scum in neighbors goes higher as the neighbors are more numerous. But, as you say, why neighbors instead of masons? Masons would probably be way too strong with all the other roles.
Would the GM decide beforehand that both neighbors are towns, or would that be "rolled" separately (i.e. left to chance)?

[Billi bilaði]

...
And based on what been said I guess GF is improbable so you are out

Eeee... why is it improbable? Because Cheetory6 says so? What else has been said that makes it improbable?

[Billi bilaði]

Well, lets quote this, then:

Let's do this again....

A Traitor is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, as long as it:
is Mafia-aligned
knows the identities of the Mafia team is
identity is not known by the Mafia team, although they should know a Traitor exists
cannot be recruited to join the rest of the Mafia team, and is killed if shot
is endgamed if all other Mafia are dead

gives a "guilty" result to Cops, an "innocent" result to Gunsmiths, and a "Traitor" result to Role Cops

If you want a Traitor that gives an "innocent" result to Cops, make it an Investigation-Immune Traitor. Likewise, if you want one that cannot be killed by its team, make it a Bulletproof Traitor. These roles would return full names (e.g. Investigation-Immune Traitor to a Role Cop investigating them).

The traitor would have given a guilty status to dragonspawn, as he says he was a regular cop.

[Billi bilaði]

With Cheetory6 having a named role I have to go with
VOTE: Shiro

[Billi bilaði]

Thinking Billi, though. Because I feel as if mah would be inclined to have townread Cheetory since they're neighbors.

So why would scum Cheetory kill his only ally?

That's balls.

Mah and I had a plan all figured out and stuff.
I have his reads too and I'll post them soon

, though obviously they'll be taken with a grain of salt because I'm forwarding them q.q

Well, one reason might be what he specifically states here.
He is the only one that can recount what went on between the neighbors, and since Maho doesn't seem to have been certain of him at any time, it would be a good thing for a scum to control that output.

If Maho had reads, why wouldn't he have posted them yesterday after the neighbors were revealed?

[Billi bilaði]

Pretty sure Mah was pushing for Billi too.
But hey.

NKA that isn't even right is probably the best tool to be using right now.

What does NKA mean?
I don't find it in the commonly used abbreviations (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... reviations).
A google search suggests "Night Kill Analysis"?

[Billi bilaði]

He is the only one that can recount what went on between the neighbors, and since Maho doesn't seem to have been certain of him at any time, it would be a good thing for a scum to control that output.

If that was my malevolent plan, I'm pretty sure I would have had the falsified reads written out already to make it look less like I was trying to fake them.

If Maho had reads, why wouldn't he have posted them yesterday after the neighbors were revealed?

Yeah right, because his reads wouldn't have adjusted with Shiro's flip at all.
I get it Billi, you're trying to get me mislynched, you should probably be less transparent about it to everyone else though if you want to roll with the momentum from me being angry/unlikeable right now.

A google search suggests "Night Kill Analysis"?

Yup.

1) You are a hell of a scummer, according to your wiki. You have all the answer when you want to. This is not the first time this game that you say something about how you would have played differently if this and if that.
Are you trying to make me believe that you have only one way of playing as scum? I don't think I would buy that.

2) I am trying to find the last scum, so getting you mislynched is not what I want. Same goes for a mislynch of myself.
dragon is as a certified cop as can be.
Aero can only be scum if he is godfather.
That means you are the logical player to investigate at this time.

3) Thanx.

[Billi bilaði]

...
now go eat shit I'm not putting anything else into this fucking game.

And you just had to end on this note.
Motivation kill par excellence.

Thank you for the game. It was fun up until this sentence.

[Billi bilaði]

VOTE: Cheetory6

[Billi bilaði]

I thought so too, that there was no rush. But the game is not playable as the status is now.
This is a game. If somebody can't play, to replace out is the only correct option.
UNVOTE: Cheetory6

[Billi bilaði]

dragon: I gave a listing of the status earlier today. That hasn't changed. You are a cop as far as I can tell. Aero had the slim chance of being a godfather. You know him better than I, and if you say he isn't then that is almost as strong an evidence as Cheets playing is against himself. So, Cheet is the only option as I currently see it.

Aero: Appeasement? Or just a chance to let Cheet replace out of the game. There is no way to play as the game stands. I love mafia, but I get really thrown with such situations as Cheet is creating, and can't play as it stands. And it is best that I calm myself down before I do anything rash like replacing out of the game myself.
As I said earlier, I have been really enjoying this game up until now, but I'm too old for such crap to be pulled. As I stated to dragon in the paragraph here above, Cheet is the only voting option for me. But we are 2 days into a 14 day day, and there shouldn't be any hurry to finish. I just took dragons "calming effort" of unvoting to heart and decided to follow suit.

Jeez, I'm in a bad mood. Sorry about that.

[Billi bilaði]

Well, maybe the easiest replacement would be one of the dead VTs, f.ex. Mahonster, that know the game, but know nothing they shouldn't know. They don't need to read up on the game. (I don't know if that is allowed here, but that's the way we try to do it on my local site.)

[Billi bilaði]

No I mean the is no way aero can be the godfather. He would have hammered and won the game earlier if he were.

Which means it's you or cheetory.

And while I may be leaning toward cheetory I haven't counted anything out.

Ahhh. I wasn't thinking straight, so I missed Aero's chance to hammer was a clearance.

So, basically, the game is about you and Aero figuring out which of me and Cheet's slot is the culprit.
The game can be decided upon your two votes. So if we don't get a replacement, I'll just shut up, and the two of you can salvage the game.
(So, V/LA until replacement is found, or dragon and Aero decide upon a final result.)

[Billi bilaði]

Yup, this is just a question of you and me.
Your predecessor claimed VT Neighbor (and the neighbor part was basically confirmed by the other neighbor).
I claim VT.

dragon is a claimed cop with a cop enabler dead in the game and no other cop.
Aero is cleared as he had opportunity to hammer for a win if he was scum, as well as having a cop clearance.

So, the lynch today ends the game...

[Billi bilaði]

And now it's in the AM with work tomorrow, so I'll catch you all up in the morning.

[Billi bilaði]

Can someone explain to me why Aero can't be the godfather and why the whole no hammer is important?

dragon and I both had our votes on Cheet (you). Aero could have hammered, and thus end the game.
As GF he would then have won the game, as he would have night killed either me or dragon, and won 1 on 1 on the last day as the last scum standing.

So, it is between you and me, yes, and I have to follow suit:

VOTE: Titus

[Billi bilaði]

Here you go, Aero:

Cheetory replaces into a scum slot.

Blockyman couldn't handle being both scum and neighbor, having to hide himself both here in the game, and on a neighbor talk thread.
He replaces out saying he can't play 2 games at a time. Probably replaced out of the more difficult one.

Cheetory comes in strong creating a distance to his known partner, Quaroath. Both for us, and maybe especially for his neighbor partner, Mahonster, so that he wouldn't be grilled about his Quaroath stance when the neighboring partnership would come up. Cheetory then lets this slide so that Quaroath doesn't have too much pressure.

Cheetory regularly comments about how strong the mafia is, that there can't be a GF because then it would be way to strong (I see Titus is on the same page there), while I noticed that Shiro (who I also believe is experienced here) has the opposite view, that the mafia is rather weak. So, what I'm pointing at here, is the difference between two players, how they are evaluating the balance in the game, and one of them now dead townie and therefor truthful.

Cheetory kills Mahonster, his neighbor partner, and therefor he can control what is said about the neighbor thread, f.ex. that Maho was starting to suspect me more than him. I could not get the vibe from Maho that he was at any time more sure about one or the other of us two.
He also kills the player that he doesn't know as well as you, Aero, and dragon. He must believe that he can manipulate his friends (from older games) better than a new player that also has a secondary view of him through the neighbor thread.

Cheetory spends the last part of the game to try to finish the game with quick-lynches. I believe that he was sincere in his background reasons of personal interferences, and that would effect that he wanted to finish quickly. But he poured on the AtE and didn't give any chance for "play-offs" between the two of us. He even disregarded his formerly strongest scum read of Aero being GF way before Aero was formally cleared. He just wanted a quick-lynch of me and be done with it.

[Billi bilaði]

Thanks for the claims. If it's nothing to you, I'm still going to do my VCA.

Given an enabler though I highly doubt GF but I have to check my work.

...
Cheetory regularly comments about how strong the mafia is, that there can't be a GF because then it would be way to strong (I see Titus is on the same page there),...

'

... I haven't read the past game, but given the fact you misrepped my thoughts on Aero, you misrepping Cheetory's read evolution (which I'm presuming without looking) did happen.
...

How am I misrepping your thoughts on Aero? I'm saying that you are on the same page ase Cheet that GF is unlikely. I think that's basically spot on.

...

Things start getting interesting with zakkwagon

:
Billi clearly isn't worried about how he looks when he puts zakk at L-1 that early on in the game. Townpoints! Woo!
...
Billi bringing chevre to L-1 is once again friggin' gutsy as heck.
...

...
Second, you haven't really taken much of a strong position

according to the vote counts

at the game. You've always been in the sweet spot middle, which is where scum like to hang out on a wagon.
...

Come again? I'm always in the middle? Do you want to define "middle" for me?

... While obviously the townie was likely truthful, people can disagree about balance and both be town.

Otherwise, mafia discussion would be boring and empty.

...

Fourth, your case is largely conclusory.

You put forth that all the good is "distancing" for show. The neighborhood tactic is a strawman. I could always paraphrase the chat, but you'd just go back to this strawman anyway. The strawman can equally be turned into a strawman of "you killed him, and saw the opportunity to make the very argument you're making now pre or post flip". It's an argument that can't really be proven or disproven.

So, we don't want Cheets playing to be boring and empty, but I shouldn't draw conclusions at the stage of the game where, from my standpoint, it can only be you?
How should I make a case against the only possible player without drawing conclusions from the whole game up until this point where all actions and results point to the same place? Wouldn't it be boring and empty if I didn't draw any conclusions?

[Billi bilaði]

When I'm in your position, dragon, I can only look at the game, dig into the iso's and old games of players and see if I catch them in discrepancies or get really bad feelings.
I cannot prove my innocence.

I started pretty aggressively with L-1's (as I have done in other games). I then toned that back when Silver gave me the yellow card for that.
I have not been as active in this game as I think I've been in my other games on this site, but I put it mostly down to that there were many very active players in this game so the need to keep the activity up hasn't been necessary.

Basically, I've been in your shoes (as recently as my last game here), and, from my perspective, it comes down to gut.

[Billi bilaði]

I'd rather that Aero would vote for Titus, as that's the way for town to win, not just for Titus.

[Billi bilaði]

Thank you.
Good game. I had fun. Thanx all.

[Billi bilaði]

Well, just one thing about the tables I made. They were real and I did them in all my previous games here, so I couldn't well not do them.
And, I was way off on who was the traitor.

[Billi bilaði]

And I sure was not going to start any engagement, Titus. But thanks for replacing in.

[Billi bilaði]

I think that touch was a key element in winning Aero over.
And the biggest reason I wanted to kill you, (re. your surprise in the Dead Thread), I saw all the elements of a power player who would root us out.
(A smaller reason was that I would not have been surprised to see a doctor in the house, and then he would be more likely to protect pisskop.)

[Billi bilaði]

I'd rather that Aero would vote for Titus, as that's the way for town to win, not just for Titus.

This should have tipped me off tbh

I'm glad that it didn't. My silence had been too long, so I had to say something without saying to much.

[Billi bilaði]

Are you guys gonna release the ScumPT because I want to know why you'd kill the vig over the claimed cop?

With a blocker there is no need to kill a claimed cop when there are other PR's to choose from.

PS: I've ok'd the release of the ScumPT.

[Billi bilaði]

Re: Dead thread: In case of no lynch on the last day, I was leaning towards killing Aero, and not dragon. I.e. kill the one that was more on my side (and not take a final chance on the BP being permanent).

[Billi bilaði]

There was a number of roles that I've never seen before.

[Billi bilaði]

I pondered a long, long time over the Mah kill. I put up all the situation for killing each player, but at the end of the night, I could not let both neighbors live.