Mini Normal 1719 - Flavorless Fun! [Game Over!]
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herrcombs Goon
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herrcombs Goon
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herrcombs Goon
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In post 39, Dwlee99 wrote:Okay, we're out of RVS. Fine.
But let's look at Garmr's ISO -
21 - RVS
24 - "Honestly don't see anything scummy so far"
So saying he doesn't see anything scummy is a scum tell? Okay, totally.
Why did you clip out the rest of what he said, about why it's a scumtell to him?
(Even though frankly, I don't agree with mykonian's premise... I don't think the phrase "to be honest" or its derivatives is alignment indicative, I've seen townies use the phrase and I tend to use it too out of habit.)-
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herrcombs Goon
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Wait... Who's bluewaffle? Did you mean BBT? Or are you voting someone who's not in this game?-
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herrcombs Goon
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In post 44, Dwlee99 wrote:I clipped it out because the rest was gibberish about him saying the word "honestly". He did say some stuff about it being him buddying and "Add to this that he's stepping in to protect someone from an accusation and that little sentence becomes quite damning." but it's a weak case that relies on saying the word "honestly" being a scum tell, which, like you said, isn't one.
Yeah, but your original quote ("So saying he doesn't see anything scummy is a scum tell? Okay, totally") ignored the part of his post where he thought Garmr was scummy for buddying someone (pretty sure that someone was me). Not sure why you felt you had to manipulate mykonian's 37 to get your point across.
pedit: What's with the caustic aggression coming out of mykonian? Calling another player after a very short back-and-forth "either a worthless town or a worthless scum", and then dehumanizing him by calling him "it"... No clue if this is a matter of playstyle or if he's getting super bent out of shape because his 37 was jumped on, or what. But it doesn't seem like myko is working to get past it, either way. Just seems to be instigating a fight with Dwlee. Also, noted that mykonian is ignoring Dwlee's reasoning for voting Soze and trying to insist it's simply OMGUS.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: mykonian-
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herrcombs Goon
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herrcombs Goon
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In post 68, Dwlee99 wrote:I don't understand how it's manipulating. I was just quoting the specific part that I wanted to respond to. Like right here I wanted to cut out the last half of your post because it's not what I'm responding to. But I didn't just so I don't bother people when I don't need to.
Ok yeah fair enough, I suppose it's not manipulation to crop out the stuff about the "buddying," since it was a separate thought and not necessarily relevant. But I still think that the first sentence (the one you quoted) was leading into mykonian's argument:
In post 37, mykonian wrote:Garmr already committed a scumtell trying to call someone town. There's no need for the word "honestly" there, it only makes sense from a point where scum is trying to think like town. The word "honestly" implies that he comes from a setting where he was prepared to lie this game, then found a situation where it wasn't necessary.
The manipulation is you implying the scum tell was "saying he doesn't see anything scummy," where myko was arguing it was a scum tell for the way he used the term "honestly" and what it could mean psychologically. You clipped myko's quote in a way that didn't represent what he was trying to say, and then sarcastically dismissed it. That is manipulation.-
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herrcombs Goon
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He asked me a question. I was responding to his question.
I don't know what to make of Hieirama's page 4 read list there. Especially since they're blatantly getting things wrong already:
In post 76, Hieirama wrote:Calling Dwlee worthless because he didn't agree with your reads was a terrible move, though.
That is not why myko called Dwlee worthless. Still, the effort to be transparent seems more town oriented than scum, and I like how they're starting to ask a few questions.
One thing real quick though, Hieirama: You should try to avoid putting votes/unvotes in spoiler tags. The mod mentioned at the beginning they won't be counted if you do that.
And a question for you Hieirama, since it looks like your account is fairly new: how much prior mafia experience do you have?-
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herrcombs Goon
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Wait HOLD ON. I was just about to reply to Garmr's
In post 72, Garmr wrote:Also what's this bs about calling someone town. I said I don't see anything scummy yet.
because I was pretty sure Garmr's 24 was an indirect reponse to Lalendra's 22, so he was in effect defending me. But "nothing scummy" != "town". Mykonian, why did you claim he was "trying to call someone town" in your 37? I think you should address this.
pedit @ DWL: OK I get it dude, I'm not going to push this any further because I feel like we're going in circles.
pedit2: Yeah, I can see where you're coming from Myko (re: Hieirama), but I'm not done with you. I'd also like to know why you delayed your vote on Garmr until he voted you first. And this coming from someone who called another player worthless in part for their OMGUS vote earlier...-
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herrcombs Goon
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UNVOTE: myko
I like how mykonian hasn't stepped down from people challenging him, and it seems like he's working to drive the discussion forward with useful content in some areas. I've got a resounding nullread on him at this point, though. His postcount is ballooning a bit and is making the thread a little hard to follow. I also don't like the way in which he avoids answering some questions directly. (e.g. see his back-and-forth with Soze starting with Soze's 99, and the way myko structured his 107 and 110 without simply answering the question. All this does it invite a cyclical discussion that just takes up space instead of generating anything useful.)
I can totally identify with Hieirama's feeling that as someone fresh out of the newbie queue, the pace of this game is noticeably faster. I can see how Hie is having a hard time jumping into discussions. However, I don't like the "Should I go back to lurking or?" bit in hie's 89. This on top of the questions imbedded in hie's readlist in 76, I think it could be a pretty easy way to feign scumhunting without actually trying to figure out the game. I'm fine with progressing that wagon. And a question to Hieirama: what would you consider to be the most interesting development so far in the game? Who is your top scum at this point?
VOTE: Hieirama
Feeling an initial townlean on BBT. He's pushing on multiple people, I like the questions he's asking in 121, for example. Implosion's first point in his 158 is bothering me a bit though. BBT, was your repeating of implosion's points in his 59 in your 120 intentional?
I don't mind pistachi0n's vote on Garmr, but I don't like how pista isn't really commenting on anything else in the game. Pistachi0n, what is your opinion of mykonian? Do you think there's any merit to the wagon on Garmr, which has already attracted several votes?
@ Soze's 142: is it not anti-town to point out things that could be soft-claims? What good can possibly come from discussing such things?
In post 144, Dierfire wrote:I think that the logic is very natural. I will break it down. Town players vote for those they believe to be Mafia. Mafia players vote for those they know to be Town (except when voting players they know to be Mafia, which is presumably less frequent). So, if I believe a player to be Town (such as DWL), others voting for that player are more likely to be Mafia than are others voting for some other player.
This is interesting logic, but something feels off to me about it, too. You say "players voting DWL are more likely to be Mafia." More likely than what? Than random? Using this logic with no supporting scumreads gives a probability marginally better than random to find scum. It's kinda like a really weak process of elimination, and it feels strange seeing it as the sole justification for a vote so early into the game.
It takes me forever to compose my posts (and I'm still trying to get the hang of following so many different little lines of discussion). I've been writing this one off-and-on for the past hour and a half at least (going on two hours now)
I do like how active Dierfire is being after getting caught up, his interest in talking with mykonian about recent events, and his outreach to numerous other players in the game. Initial townlean for Dierfire.-
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herrcombs Goon
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herrcombs Goon
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In post 180, Hieirama wrote:The popular
In post 24, Garmr wrote:
Honestly don't see anything scummy so far
wins my interest. Not really the quote itself, but on how much attention its given.
OK. So what interests you about it? Do you think the attention it's getting is revealing any information? Are any of your reads from 76 developing as a result?-
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herrcombs Goon
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In post 205, Keyser Söze wrote:However, Garmr has now set himself up for both an investigation and policy-lynch (scum would not have strong-motivation to do that).
My point exactly. And what more does pushing his wagon accomplish? He's already claimed his role, and I am baffled by how many people just want to lynch him already a week and a half before the deadline.-
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herrcombs Goon
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Because if you're wrong, then you end the day early with a mislynch without much contribution from several other players. Because it deprives town of information that we could use to figure out who was actually town on his wagon and who was scum trying to push the mislynch. Because if he's actually BP, then we've quicklynched a PR while learning jack shit and making tomorrow that much more difficult. Because if you're town and are the strongest proponent of his mislynch, then it draws even more suspicion onto yourself and makes you all the more likely to be a mislynch target.
I am a cautious player by nature. If there's a clearly scummy player, then I don't want to delay the wagon for no reason. But the possibility that we mislynch a PR is not something I am that gung-ho about Day 1, especially with so little discussion happening beforehand.-
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herrcombs Goon
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Figure of speech; comparatively, we're 4 days into a 14 day D1, so what we know now is "jack shit" compared to the discussion that has yet to happen.
I don't want to argue this back and forth with you, because I am still learning how the pace of these games run, and others need to chime in and start contributing. I won't be on much this weekend (family visiting from out of town), but I'll catch up early next week once they're gone.-
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herrcombs Goon
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Holy crap, I've got a lot of catching up to do. I'll do it page-by-page and spoiler it, so I don't clutter the thread with a massive wall. I'll pull questions out and post them after the spoilers. UNVOTE:
Spoiler: page 9
Spoiler: page 10
Spoiler: page 11
Spoiler: page 12
Spoiler: page 13
Spoiler: page 14
Spoiler: page 15
Ok, the questions I still have:
@ DWL's 282: Why did you unvote Garmr there? Did you ever consider the Garmr wagon to be in part due to PL, because Garmr was acting against the interests of town? What did you mean by your phrase, "There would be no reason for a policy lynch on Garmr with how they've been playing"?
@ Haschel's 334: Do you think that voting someone and pressuring someone are mutually exclusive? Do you think that Lalendra voting Dier to get more information is scum-indicative?
@ Dier's readlist in 357: What makes you think DWL is town? What's the "English-English translator" think you mentioned in your read of me? Why does your read on Lelandra need to be "referenced against Hieirama's activity?"
and I'm going to VOTE: pistachi0n.
In your past few posts, it looks like you're not really trying to engage in fruitful discussion. I want to see some reads from you or something that looks like you're trying to figure out the game.-
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herrcombs Goon
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Just want to fact check you quickly, Soze:
In post 393, Keyser Söze wrote:"Null/weak town": pistachi0n's now no longer scum-reads Gamr:
pista was referring to myko here, not Garmr. His null/weak town read was on myko.-
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herrcombs Goon
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herrcombs Goon
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In post 401, mykonian wrote:In post 399, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:Dwlee, you should absolutely vote for Pistachion. We're approaching the point of the game where we need a flip to progress further.
this is where I want herr to come in to complain about quicklynches and how there's more info to be gained
Nah, that takes a PR hard claim for me to freak out the way I did.-
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herrcombs Goon
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herrcombs Goon
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In post 405, Dierfire wrote:
In post 259, Lalendra wrote:Hieirama – 76 seems like feigned scumhunting, as pointed out by herrcombs in 169. Could just be noobtown, someone who is trying to figure things out but not really sure where to go, but reads more like noobscum. Not a fan of how 180 only addresses one point out of the many questions she could have chosen to respond to, and then goes on to bring us back to Garmr’s 24. At the same time, in more recent posts, she has explained her reasoning, explained that she is new and may not be interpreting everything correctly, and has made some interesting points, so I'm starting to lean more noobtown.
What would you make of that quote?
Well, I agree with the first sentence (mainly because I had already made the point earlier, can't even remember if I was the first one to point it out but I doubt it). I think it's a bit sheepy though, especially since I detailed my initial scumread of Hieirama due to a combination of her early posts, and Lalendra just kinda simplified it without adding anything new. I can't precisely follow Lalendra's thought process and read development, especially the phrase "made some interesting points" as a reason for leaning more noobtown. I'm not a big fan of the word "interesting" -- I think it's a buzzword that doesn't really convey an opinion and it's easy to hide behind.
In my reread, I saw some scummy things and some townie things in Lalendra's posts, so this would stick out as an example of the former. I am currently leaning more scum than town on her. I don't like 312, 375, and how they followed the end of her 276. She says she's not a fan of policy lynches, and she unvoted Garmr because it looked like he wasn't going to be anti-town anymore, yet it's her preferred lynch later in 312 and she would "compromise" on Dier as an alternative. If you have an actual scummy read, instead of just a PL target, wouldn't you prefer to lynch scum? Or if you don't have a scumread you feel better about voting, why not scumhunt to find one? I don't understand.-
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herrcombs Goon
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Reading through Hieirama's ISO, I find it hard to convince myself either way that she's noobscum or noobtown. I need to see some more engagement from her today because yesterday it seemed like she was having serious difficulties breaking in and getting to the core of useful discussions. I unvoted her in preference of a push on pista after I caught up yesterday, but I'm not sure I was ever really satisfied with the unvote.
I'd like to see her answers to the questions posed by Haschel and Dier. And one of my own: what is your opinion of Garmr right now? What do you think of his last few actions yesterday?
VOTE: Hieirama-
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herrcombs Goon
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I'd like to weigh in on the Garmr thing real quick. My default town-read on him is deteriorating to the point where I can understand the argument that he's scum. His two most significant actions yesterday (his BP hardclaim and his quickhammer) were pretty useless, in my opinion. I say they're useless in that they accomplished nothing, but more importantly, they were both anti-town.
Garmr makes the argument today that D1 was basically over when he hammered, but that's not true. There were several outstanding questions that could have been answered (some of which were on the same page as the hammer). He says that "people were putting intentions to hammer," but the only person to actually do that was DWL and it's been established that he wasn't going to immediately end the day. His arguments that his quickhammer wasn't anti-town (and wasn't even a quickhammer) just don't cut it for me. His change of mind from "I'm in no rush for the day to end" to a quickhammer the very next IRL day also looks really bad to me.
It feels like Garmr is taking a sledgehammer to this game, like he doesn't really give a fuck about the damage he does, and this could be a scum tactic to take out as much as he can before he's finally lynched. Not going to vote him and put him to L-1 right now though. If he's town, I don't want to risk having such a short D2 and have it end by lynching the BP, of all things. I have other people I am still interested in and I want to see if Garmr redeems himself today.-
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herrcombs Goon
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In post 506, Lalendra wrote:Herrcombs is town and that makes me happy.
Could you elaborate a little bit for me? Why am I town?-
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herrcombs Goon
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@ Hieirama:Did you notice that I voted you earlier? Did you see my question for you in 467?
In post 467, herrcombs wrote:what is your opinion of Garmr right now? What do you think of his last few actions yesterday?
Rephrased: do you think his quickhammer was anti-town? Do you find it at all strange that a wagon that flashformed (or in your own words, "formed abnormally quickly") was hammered so quickly by someone who did not declare intent, and who just a few posts before had explicitly said he was in no rush to end the day? Do you retain your townread of him that you held yesterday?
I'm not a fan of how you dodged around Haschel's questioning your opinions of the pistachio wagon (it took him asking what, like three times before you actually talked about someone on the wagon?), and I'm not a fan of how you refuse to address Garmr's quickhammer (aside from your quip in 433) or give a direct opinion of him. I want to hear your opinion.-
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herrcombs Goon
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herrcombs Goon
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In post 520, Hieirama wrote:@Herrcombs @meanmelter
I did skip by those posts, I was in a rush to reply previously since we were about to go out for lunch.
In post 467, herrcombs wrote:And one of my own: what is your opinion of Garmr right now? What do you think of his last few actions yesterday?
Hmm, went over this a couple times I think....
In post 232, post 227, and post 239.
My main opinion there still stands. The quickhammer was unexpected, but the message that went along with it made sense.
I'm curious as to why you'd ask that question, actually?It's been repeated a couple times, if my memory serves me right.
Well, I keep asking because you're apparently unable to answer it. I asked what yourcurrentopinion of Garmr is, and you link three posts from 8 pages before the end of D1, none of which substantiate a town-read on Garmr besides an "assumption" that he's town and the feeling that his outburst was "more Town frustration then scum."
And your answer to the second half of my question -- "unexpected" does not assign alignment, nor does the phrase "it made sense." You are intentionally avoiding my questions, giving answers that absolve you from any responsibility for an accurate read on Garmr, and this looks scummy as hell to me.
Yeah... I'm leaving my vote on you.-
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herrcombs Goon
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In post 530, Garmr wrote:The people in my scum list are
Lala,the guy I'm voting,myko andhercombs. I may be wrong on one but this is where I think scum lays.
Where have I heard this before? Owait...
In post 491, Meanmelter wrote:[@ Garmr:] and literally anyone who voted for your wagon you find as scummy.
And I'm not even voting for you. For shame. I assume you're scumreading me for my 505, because you've literally said nothing else about me all game.-
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herrcombs Goon
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You're null-lean-scum for me at this point. I need to review some of Lelandra's stuff from D1 (I think I remember reading her scum from some of her posts...) to see if I need to "neck myself" or not.
While I hate using meta as a resource (people who are sufficiently self-aware of their own meta can easily manipulate it), I might take a look at a few of your games to see if your claims regarding your metagame are accurate and likely to hold for this game.-
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herrcombs Goon
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Hmm. I don't know what to think of your "offer." For one, I don't like bargaining with people who call me a "mentally handicapped retard." I also think we're playing this game for entirely different reasons. Yours is a very self-centered approach, and everyone else be damned if we win or lose, at least you can claim you had 2/4 of your scumreads correct at some point in the game, right??
I obviously don't understand your methods of PoE, if that's indeed how you're scumreading me (it seems a lot more like OMGUS to me). But a serious question for you -- Do you think all of the scum are stacking on you, trying their damndest to get you lynched? There's not a single person you're scumreading who isn't either on your wagon or entertaining the thought.-
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herrcombs Goon
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In post 549, Hieirama wrote:Unable to answer? Did you read what I've said?
You should be able to put it together that I have a Town-Lean on Garmr. It's kind of obvious. But if you really need it spelled out for you in a post, there you go.
I have read everything you've said.
The responsibility is on you to substantiate your reads and update them as new information is obtained in the game. This actually reminds me of something you said earlier:
In post 371, Hieirama wrote:I read the game and everything, but usually I have no strong opinions or suspicions on anything. ((Maybe I'll share some opinions later anyway? Just for the record.)) It's much easier to reply if addressed.
This is exactly where scum want to reside. Scum want to sit on the fence, not giving any strong opinions, so when the wind blows just right, they can opportunistically jump on the town-consensus and not look suspicious. By giving actual opinions and suspicions, you put your own thoughts at risk and scrutiny. Scum don't like to be scrutinized. Town don't give a shit because they have nothing to hide.
Read, assumption, what's the difference again?
Assumptions are, by definition, something you take for granted without backing proof or evidence. Reads (I think of them synonymous with arguments) require evidence to build and sustain. Throughout the game, reads develop based on new evidence that is presented. By demonstrating your reads are updating to events of the game, you show that you are thinking about the game and trying to solve who is scum. Scum will try to spin narratives and try to make the evidence fit their reads, rather than the other way around. After all, they're trying to mislynch the town, so they are required to lie to achieve their wincon.
So this is why I keep asking you for specific information. I want to see if your thought process is consistent with your play, and whether you're just trying to look townie or actually trying to figure out the game. I have not been satisfied with your responses to my queries. I asked you earlier (169) for your thoughts including your top scum read.Your answer?In 180 you referred me to your super-early readlist which came like 100 posts earlier. This told me that you were not updating your reads (I asked for a top scumread) based on the events of the game.
Similarly, I asked you in 467 to specifically provide acurrentread on Garmr. I was like you D1, where I wanted to believe his BP claim at its face, and I didn't want the wagon to go through in case we lynched a PR D1. However, over time I noticed things from him that began to look scummy, including his change-of-mind at the end of D1 up to and including his hammer, that were making me reconsider my read. I wanted to know if you were taking those actions into consideration.Your answer?In 520 you referred me to a set of posts you made 300 posts earlier and then implied that you hadn't really considered anything since then.
It was a way for me to explain why his quickhammer wasn't scummy to me (because it apparently was to others) since you did ask about his last few actions.
But you didn't explain why his quickhammer wasn't scummy. You responded "That quickhammer though" immediately after it happened, which indicated you thought it was strange. And you later told me "the message that went along with it made sense." Which message? Was the message alignment-indicative (anyone in this game, scum or town, can produce posts that "make sense")? Does it excuse Garmr, who had stated "I am in [no] rush to end the day" (412), and then quickhammered without warning 16 hours later?
You asked me my opinions on Garmr and I said I assumed he was Town. That's not question dodging.
You didn't say "I assume he is Town." You linked me a set of old posts and then said "my main opinion there still stands." You never substantiated your opinion in the first place (aside from your 239 "I can't find any other post I don't like other than #117" -- which isn't even one of Garmr's posts!). You have not indicated your opinion is developing. To me, this is absolutely question dodging.-
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herrcombs Goon
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I asked you the question, bud, because I'd imagine it's quite rare for all of the scum to try to coordinate their efforts and pile on the same wagon. Am I wrong? Does it happen more often than I think? Can anyone else answer this question for me?
It really caught my attention when you scumread me out of the blue, and it feels defensive and convenient to me that all of your scumreads are either voting you or scumreading you. Like I said, I need to take time to review the Lalendra thing, because I think there could be something there (and I've already mentioned as such). Most of my attention has been focused on Hieirama, but once I get more time, I'll go back and try to get a better grip on Lalendra.-
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In post 561, Garmr wrote:Does it matter if my scum reads are on the same wagon if I have good reasons to scum read them?
You have not substantiated your scumread of me in the slightest, so I will continue to dispute this.-
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herrcombs Goon
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Sigh... I think we're speaking a different language. This is not the first time this has happened to me. And I'm starting to believe that this might just be another one of my awful TvTs that I should abandon in order to catch someone who is more likely scum.
Gotta review that Lalendra vs Garmr thing that I've been putting off. Seems like that has merit one way or the other.-
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herrcombs Goon
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First, let me get a readlist out there:
Dierfire: Null-town.His interactions with BBT back on page 15 still seem really unnatural and appeasy to me. However, I like how he's been pushing on several different people today. Pushing the game forward is townie in my eyes.
Garmr: Scumlean.On the one hand, his BP claim was so abrupt as was his quickhammer, that it could be reckless-town who simply has little patience for the game. However, I don't like how he's being so blatantly anti-town, trying to spin it as not-scummy, nor do I like how he gives zero attention to people who were/are not on his wagon. His tunnel on Lalendra feels like it's sucking the energy out of the game.
Haschel: Null.His RVS opening made me really uncomfortable, but a cursory meta inspection reveals that he does that same thing every game. I don't like how he never answered questions about it, but oh well... He's been doing very little, is suspiciously inactive, but I do like his push on Hiei especially in 478 and 483. Not a lot to talk about, but I'd like to see more from him so I can get a better read.
DWL: Town.Although I've pinged out a lot of stuff he said in pages 9-11, a lot of his posts since them seem town enough. He looks like he's trying to logically figure out the game, even if he's confused at times. I identify with a lot of what he's saying, especially in the Lalendra vs Garmr argument.
Meanmelter: Null-town.I like the depth with which he caught up. I agree with most of his points against Garmr. And he also seems to be pushing on other people, trying to straighten up their logic and read consistency. Can't see much I don't like from melter. Would like him to post more though.
Hieirama: Scumlean*.I give it the asterisk because it's exactly the type of noobtown I've lynched in the past for lapses in logic or lack of proactive scumhunting that could just as easily come from noobtown as noobscum. I will be keeping an eye on her though, I feel as the game goes on she will become easier to read.
Mykonian: Town.I like how he's using his activity to push the game further. Earlier in D1, I felt like he was just posting to post and build up fluff in the thread, but he's redeeming himself in my eyes. i thought he was being overdefensive early on, but I'm led to believe it's just a matter of playstyle and not alignment-indicative.
Lalendra: Scumlean.I'll talk about this more below, but I didn't like her push against Garmr as a PL yesterday. I discussed this in 374 and 408. I don't like how she keeps blindly tunneling on Garmr paying attention to no one else... Although I'm curious why she thinks Dier is so obvscum? I'm missing something obviously, because I can't see in her ISO where she has a single cohesive reason to think Dier is so blatantly scum.
Keyser Soze: Null-town.I think I remember reading a few of Soze's older Newbie games, and he always seemed pretty eccentric as town, interacting more directly with people in real-time. I think he's fallen under my radar this game though. Upon inspection of his ISO, he seems readily willing to scour peoples' ISOs to figure out where they're coming from. The walls strike me as different than his playstyle I witnessed previously, but I still see town-value in them. I haven't really found anything that specifically pings me as scummy from Soze's posts.
BBT: Null-town.I really liked his play D1, but I am a bit baffled by his D2 play for reasons others have already mentioned. Why ignore the work people have already put in D2, declare a lynchpool that consists of the last few people on the pistachio wagon yesterday, and take nothing else into consideration? I don't see scum-motivation in that, but I don't particularly understand why he's taking this approach now.
Ok, it's time for me to weigh in on the Lalendra vs Garmr thing: it's obnoxious, and I don't think it's TvT. I'm almost considering a world in which they're both scum, just because the degree of tunneling on each other is draining this game of life and is making it painful to follow. Thing is, it seems like I have to pick a side, because they're not backing down from each other any time soon.
Gun to my head, I'm going to say Lalendra is scum over Garmr. Starting with her Dierfire case -- What is it? She says he's obvscum, but I've never seen her substantiate that. Post 480 comes off as super strange to me. Then, 497 seems incredibly myopic. Why not use a flip, try to analyze a wagon, and see what you find? Why just shrug it all off, saying "I can't really disagree with anyone on the wagon cause I was all for the lynch?"
I do think that Lalendra was misrepping Garmr in 498. Even though I agree that Garmr responded rather emotionally, sometimes incoherently, to some of meanmelter's points, Lalendra simplified it in a way that brushed away the evidence that didn't fit her read and just made it easier to vote for Garmr. She continues to do this scummy simplification/misrepresentation, I pointed it out once earlier in 408 when she sheeped my read on Hieirama.
Lalendra's 652 seems really weird, especially since she hasn't pushed on Dier at all today. Why is Dier "so obvscum?" I am getting frustrated too, in part because Garmr's ISO is so hard to follow and my mind is swimming from all the defensiveness and the constant tunneling. But I am more bothered by how Lalendra is trying so hard to push the lynch, while not substantiating it well, and ignoring most else in the process.
Garmr's case against Lalendra 630 also seems rather well put together, and I can agree with many of the presented points (I think I've mentioned a few myself earlier).
Ugh, my head hurts. I need to make smaller, more frequent posts, or I'm going to find it increasingly difficult to stay involved in this game.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lalendra L-2-
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herrcombs Goon
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@ Lala's 671: Why joke as a means of justifying a premature roleclaim? Isn't the proper time to claim when someone declares intent to hammer? Wagons can fall apart on their own at L-1... So wouldn't you want to wait as long as possible before you claimed?
Now, for your "self-evident" Garmr scumcase... Well, I was going to analyze it point by point (I actually had it all typed up), but I'm not going to defend Garmr because honestly I agree with some of your points. What does bother me though, is that it looks like you are not considering evidence that is contrary to this read that you have decided on (like in 498; there are some real points in Garmr's responses to melter's push, but you don't care to consider them.) A few arguments you make are nitpicky, and I think you're showing serious signs of confirmation bias.
Now, your "case" against Dier does still greatly bother me. I already said in my 662, I read through your ISO. I read it a couple of times actually. Your case on Dier is not substantiated to the extent that I would expect from someone who claims he is "so obvscum." Literally all I can see is your 306, which is both super hedgy and super nitpicky, then you said he'd be a good "compromise lynch" to Garmr in 312, then you picked out a single sentence in his back-and-forth with BBT in 377 and decided it was good enough for a vote. Do you honestly think you have been "pretty clear" about your Dier case?-
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herrcombs Goon
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In post 677, Garmr wrote:2 There are no crumbs in her iso about her being a dr making the claim less believable.
This is seriously grasping at straws. How are you so sure there aren't any crumbs? And do you think it's necessary for town PRs to crumb their roles? Don't you think it's a terrible idea for a PR to have obvious crumbs, especially for a doc, because they could be easily noticed by scum for an early NK? Do you think it's impossible for scum to fakecrumb PRs?
Like wtf... why even make that argument...-
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herrcombs Goon
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herrcombs Goon
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Don't shush me. And I don't know wtf you just said here: "and I would crumb it normally with out making a gambit or at least crumb who she is protecting." Could you rephrase it for me?
Please explain to me why crumbing anything about a doctor role, either the role or your target, benefits town more than it benefits scum? Here's my argument -- if you are the doc, crumbing your role in an obvious manner is bound to get you killed at night, defeating the purpose of your role. Crumbing your protection target will just lead mafia to hit someone else, defeating the purpose of your role. Why am I wrong? (For the record, from what I understand, docs can't protect themselves from the NK.)-
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herrcombs Goon
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In post 683, Meanmelter wrote:Dude the fact Garmr can quickhammer and no one seems to fucking bat an eye already makes being at L-1 time to claim.
Except I (505, 662) and several other people have batted an eye. And as pointed out by Dier (670), Garmr was already on Lalendra's wagon when she was put to L-1.
In post 685, Garmr wrote:In post 681, herrcombs wrote:Don't shush me. And I don't know wtf you just said here: "and I would crumb it normally with out making a gambit or at least crumb who she is protecting." Could you rephrase it for me?
Please explain to me why crumbing anything about a doctor role, either the role or your target, benefits town more than it benefits scum? Here's my argument -- if you are the doc, crumbing your role in an obvious manner is bound to get you killed at night, defeating the purpose of your role. Crumbing your protection target will just lead mafia to hit someone else, defeating the purpose of your role. Why am I wrong? (For the record, from what I understand, docs can't protect themselves from the NK.)
You leave a crumb of who you want to protect if there it can confirm people as town if there's no kills.But be honest do you even believe her claim
Thanks for ignoring half my post. I don't know if I believe EITHER of your claims. This game is such a mess right now that I need to reread yet again to try to make sense of it all.
In post 686, Keyser Söze wrote:Could be a caught-scum-tactic to out the doctor - but as no one has counter-claimed: UNVOTE: Lalendra
By the way, I'm not sure if there's a real doc who isn't Lalendra, that they should cc right now. If Lalendra doesn't die in the night, we pretty much know she's scum, right? Then if there's a real doc, he/she can stay hidden and the role isn't completely worthless.
In post 690, Lalendra wrote:I generally claim at L-1 because frankly, I don't have the time to check in on the game every ten minutes during the week, and it's entirely possible that I could miss ITH and the hammer vote. So, since I was already here and actively posting, and saw that I was at L-1, that seemed to me like the time to claim.
This makes sense. Thank you.-
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herrcombs Goon
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herrcombs Goon
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I didn't realize that we have less than four IRL days left before the deadline. We should probably consolidate, yeah?
From what I understand, several people don't want to take sides in the Garmr vs Lalendra thing. I can understand the desire to let their PR claims sort themselves out. If I had to compromise (someone who's not Garmr/Lalendra/Hieirama), I'd pick Haschel. It seems like he's popping in this game every so often only to take little prods at people without building serious reads or analyzing the game to any degree of depth. He's flown under my radar all game but I could definitely see that as a scum tactic.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Haschel Cedricson-
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herrcombs Goon
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I'm torn. I'd really prefer to let the Lalendra doc-claim resolve itself, but looking through her ISO, I still have to admit she looks really scummy... But I'm honestly worried about the composition of her wagon. I feel way better about sticking to Haschel. He's been a non-factor in this game and I don't see much in the way of town motivation or analysis from him. Plus, he hasn't claimed doc, so yeah. Call me a coward, but I still don't like the idea of lynching potential PRs.
If it means lynching Lalendra or going without a lynch, I'll choose the former, but I still feel really uneasy about her wagon...-
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herrcombs Goon
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herrcombs Goon
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In post 788, mykonian wrote:It's a bit annoying that there's a heap of townies who play this game but don't really dare to do anything.
Who are you talking about here?-
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herrcombs Goon
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herrcombs Goon
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herrcombs Goon
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@BBT: If you're asking why I want to lynch Lala -- Her read progression yesterday was terrible, her scumread on Garmr was predicated on quasi-PL desires which morphed inexplicably into a #1 D1 lynch priority based on a scumread that she never substantiated; likewise, her only other scumread in Dierfire up to that point was not substantiated in the slightest and yet she claimed later he was "obvscum" 652 (look through my ISO, I've already made this point quite clear), only to backtrack after being challenged on it, yet still wants to lynch the same person. She has pushed ONE person today (Garmr), and despite other conversations trying to take place, the Garmr/Lalendra game seems to leech all attention from them.
I'll be fine to lynch Lala or Haschel today. I think a Dier lynch would also give us quite a bit of information, but I'm not as comfortable about my read of him. He's making me uncomfortable for the same reasons as Haschel -- despite the fact that he asks a lot of questions, he gives very little of his own analysis, and I see several instances in his ISO that look like he's deliberately trying to project a Town image. If I had given more time to the game today, I would have pushed on him, but I'm rather underwhelmed with others who have had him at the top of their scumlist (BBT, Lala) and haven't really done anything of substance all day to convince us why.-
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herrcombs Goon
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herrcombs Goon
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herrcombs Goon
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herrcombs Goon
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In post 863, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:She didn't say who she protected? Has she claimed it afterwards?
In post 864, Garmr wrote:nope not even once.
Why would you lie about that, Garmr? Or did you just not read the thread?
w/e, this isn't even the time to talk about it. The more pressing issue is thatHASCHEL IS STILL AT L-2. I see on his wagon right now [Keyster, myko, BBT, DWL]. The last vote count was wrong.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Haschel L-1
Someone get in here and hammer.
pedit: yep we gotta get this done-
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herrcombs Goon
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herrcombs
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herrcombs Goon
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