Mini 1769: Ice Cream Mafia - Game over!

[massive]

VOTE: mn for being all lowercase letters. Slight VLA through tomorrow but checking in from phone.

[massive]

Mn has been posting reads and scumhunting even if he's not explaining his actions. He is taking in new information and adapting his reads as the game progresses. Early reads are often gut-based and intuitive. There's often not a well-developed logical explanation for them. So, I don't care if he's can't explain a page one read. He may not be scumhunting in the way that most people like and has an unconventional approach. This makes him an easy target.

What in any of mn's posts make you think he's adapting his reads? I can see him moving his vote but I don't see ANY logic behind them, and certainly not what I would call "well-developed."

And if we're policy-lynching anyone, it's Captain Capital Letters over there.

[massive]

I don't see any reason to PL anyone rn.

Do you see a reason to regular-lynch anyone rn?

[massive]

@massive What are your reads right now?

I've seen Keyser play and I like that he's goofing off a little - and that it doesn't seem to be stopping him from scumhunting. BBT and I are historically opposite alignment, so he's scum. I'll eventually get a read on TTH, once she really gets into the game. Half of the rest of the town appears to be playing a gimmick account.

How about you? What do you think of the three I specifically called out above?

[massive]

I can already tell this game is going to hurt my head.

[massive]

I'm reading and keeping up, just that all the playacting is getting on my nerves a bit.

[massive]

Keyser -- remind me again, why you have a bucketful of indicators towards scum-Kain, but aren't going to vote him?

[massive]

Catching up from page 15.

[massive]

Well, another 8 pages, still nothing really usable. TTH is probably town. Slandaar is less death-tunnelly than his normal town self but he's asking good questions and it may just be personal growth. Liked Phoenix and Boons hasn't done anything yet to screw that up, but it's early days still.

BBT -- is this latest Keyser Soze wall townposting or scumposting?

[massive]

Thor, I know you and I have played in at least one game previously, although I don't remember what alignment either of us was. Is your general playstyle "run up to L-1 and force claim?" I seem to remember you being more reliant on the question / answer back-and-forth.

[massive]

What makes you think I have not been asking questions and seeking responses since, literally, 4 of my last 5 posts have questions in them directed at a variety of people.

I think I just haven't experienced you coming in guns blazing. Maybe it's symptomatic of the replacement.

What's with the paranoia, Boons? Seems a bit early.

Massive (0%) - Being inactive is unfortunately part of his meta, and the last game I played with him, he provided a bit more content as scum. He doesn't seem to be misleading anyone this game.... actually, it doesn't seem he is doing anything at all right now.....

Maybe you can explain why, if I'm not misleading anyone and I'm not living up to what you believe is my scum meta, you would vote for me?

[massive]

I think it would be stranger to see me come in *not* guns blazing. I'm pretty sure I'm known for being aggressive like this.
I'm still not really sure where you came from with this "no questions" thing either - that feels like you weren't reading me or...I dunno, weren't seeing questions?

Yeah, I don't know. I went back and looked at it. I don't know if I was thinking more along the lines of "informational questions" rather than rhetorical questions, which some of the early posts do look like (I went back and re-read) -- questions you know the answer to, but are basically forcing the questionee to admit to.

In the early posts, you are pushing Keyser basically because you are already on his wagon and he is the leading wagon. You work to add actual reasons for keeping the vote there / pushing (like "he's just posting walls without taking actions" from 601) but the whole thing seems a bit tunnelly, and I think the same thing could possibly be said about half the game. So I don't understand why Keyser specifically is the focus here.

Meanwhile, OceanWind had the exact opposite read of Keyser (79) and Ircher (his replacement) isn't catching up, except enough for a STRONG townread on Keyser, is voting a null read, but still wants to make sure his ducks are in a row for when Keyser is ultimately lynched.

VOTE: Ircher

[massive]

So, basically, you're noting that I am fact checking myself.
Wouldn't that be a town action?

I'm not saying it's not.

At worst I'd say he felt like a scumbuddy worried about protecting his buddy too much.
And even if I fully believe that, I should still lynch Keyser first, yeah?

Which is your prerogative. I'm not sold on Keyser yet and I don't need the association with Keyser to think Ircher's play is scummy.

We can run BBT up to L-1 and force a claim if you stull wanna do that

Stuff like this definitely plays into the unflipped association between the two. Does Keyser absolutely NEED to be scum for this counterwagon attempt to be scummy?

[massive]

Why else would scum Ircher want to start a counterwagon?
Fear of BBT?
Belief that BBT is a PR and Keyser is not?
Belief that the Keyser wagon will go through regardless and will look bad if he's on it?
Not wanting to contradict a previous statement about Keyser= town?

I think that's about the list, do any of the, fit for you in a Ircher scum narrative?

I don't think he can toss away his Keyser Soze "STRONG townread" without losing any semblance of townread he may have generated. He was heavily resistant to the Keyser wagon initially, and he obviously isn't going to jump to the actual counterwagon (himself) -- so yes, the last one does fit Ircherscum. At some point, he may feel compelled to move onto Keyser just for self-preservation, but I think he has time to try out a third wagon.

[massive]

@Massive and Titus

: your thoughts on BBT?

BBT is easy to sort once he starts posting. Activity is not alignment-indicative, no matter what anyone says, so why are you trying to push it as such? If you're trying to sell scum-BBT because of a throwaway magical townread, why isn't Ircher getting the same attention?

[massive]

TTH -- I'm assuming you looked at Keyser's case on GuyFawkes, what did you think of it?

[massive]

@massive, do you want to say your thoughts on Ircher/Keyser? Along with who you think would be scum?

Ircher is still scum. Man that was some hardcore rolefishing he was just doing. I still don't think they NEED to be connected (mainly, Keyser doesn't NEED to be scum in order for Ircher to be) but I'd like to hear from Keyser today.

And in all honesty I like TTH and Thor at this point and could go either way on Aqua or pops.

[massive]

Ok, I did some role fishing. So what?

Do you really not understand why this information is only beneficial to scum? That, if you were actually town, you wouldn't care how many shots Boons might have?

[massive]

Well, this has been a fun day. *popcorn*

[massive]

Thor -- why not check Keyser? Seems like you could have cleared or condemned both Keyser and Ircher by checking Keyser, at least in your mind, since you were saying that most of what made Ircher scummy was only if Keyser was scum too.

[massive]

The only thing keeping me from Thor is I felt exactly the same way about Slandaar. I'm used to town-Slandaar being a tunnel machine and he definitely was not playing that yesterday. There's holes in the gambit, but there's some convenient pieces of Thor (like claiming gunsmith AFTER Boons vig outing, some soft defending of Ircher) ... and part of it is probably I'd hate to be wrong about Thor. (Ok so not the ONLY thing.)

[massive]

VOTE: Ircher

Back to this. Still not sure how we haven't lynched him yet.

[massive]

In Mini 1755, your argument was "I do too many scummy things so I must not be scum." Are you saying that's also your defense now? Do you want me to point out some glaringly obvious errors in your gameplay if you're actually town? Like, to start with, not basing POE on a complete supposition about Day 1 wagons? Usually POE works better with facts.

[massive]

@Massive
If you think my method is 100% useless, then show me your cases for your scumreads. Aka, PARTICIPATE AND GET INVOLVED; SHARE THOUGHTS AND STOP TUNNELING PEOPLE who you have no reason to tunnel when you've literally done nothing this game.

Meanwhile, OceanWind had the exact opposite read of Keyser (79) and Ircher (his replacement) isn't catching up, except enough for a STRONG townread on Keyser, is voting a null read, but still wants to make sure his ducks are in a row for when Keyser is ultimately lynched.

Add in the blatant rolefishing and I'm still happy with my case. Claiming I've done "literally nothing" when it conveniently ignores the quite sound case on you -- doesn't make it true.

---

What are the differences between Ircher's play in this game and in 1775 which make you think Ircher is scum in this game?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. Ircher's play in 1775 made him an easy mislynch -- but you seem to be suggesting I should forgive obviously-scummy behavior because "he's played like this before," when I would suggest that I would lynch anyone (and probably Ircher specifically A LOT) if they behaved in this fashion. I'm not going to give him a pass just because he plays scummy in every game.

---

pops: I could see Boons doing this ... on Day 4. When he's close to winning if it goes through, and he can protect his buddies if it falls on his face. ScumBoons is actually more careful than he would let you believe, so I feel pretty good that D2GambitBoons is TownBoons.

Someone want to explain Titus to me? I'm not seeing it.

[massive]

So are you saying there aren't any significant differences you see from the last game you played with Ircher, in which he was town?

You're not going to get me to say "This is Ircher's towngame." Because, if it is, it's shitty, and it needs to be corrected. Your job as town is to BE TOWN and not do scummy stuff in the hopes of building your own meta up.

And also this

A person who has a tendency to do scummy stuff (as town) that gives them mislynched should mean that players should be more cautious in scumreading them. Yet, you imply that the opposite should be expected. Why? What's the point of having a meta if you ignore it / are held to an illogical standard that is the opposite of your meta?

is horseshit. If you are getting consistently mislynched as town THEN FIX. YOUR. GAME. This is not "Oh well I can't help that I do scummy stuff, you should know I always do when I'm town" because YOUR JOB as town is to make so I don't have to think "is he town and just bad or is he scum?" YOUR JOB is to be the paragon of towniness. So if you are town GET RIGHT.

But you're not. Of course your defense of Keyser was genuine -- you know his alignment, so it's easy to be genuine. You already admit to misrepping me (including saying I townread Titus, when the quoted bit merely says I don't understand the case on Titus, primarily because there isn't one). My posts during D2 should show, if NOTHING ELSE, that I am trying to sort Thor, so saying "I made no comment on Thor D2" is flat-out a lie.

And your criticism that I need to focus elsewhere because "there are three scum" is ludicrous. I caught one. I can look at associatives after we lynch you. I don't need to hunt a whole pack at once.

[massive]

FOR FUCK'S SAKE YOU NITWIT I AM NOT ONLINE ON THE WEEKENDS

This is town BBT and I'm kinda irritated he didn't show up earlier.

I still want to lynch Ircher and I'd probably be ok with Keyser. That's it for today. Pops and Aquanim you'll have to convince me on tomorrow.

[massive]

I'd like to know what basis you have for that conclusion.

Pure experience. BBT is hands-down the person I have played the most often with. Never mind the fact that "lurky BBT" isn't actually a thing I have ever witnessed (which means more likely to be bored town from the offset) but this attack strategy is definitely town-BBT.

Talk to me about Keyser massive. Also, what do you make of both Ircher and Aqua jumping to his defence?

Ircher has been defending him all game, with absolutely zero reason to actually do so, including trying to fluff over anybody "reading anything into it" and magically calling Keyser v. Thor "town vs town" (730). His entire reason for "97% confidence" is "I have seen nothing that isn't town-motivated from this slot." That's 611. They aren't masons, or else Ircher would have contradicted Titus in 1215. (That's also where you can see he'd rather no-lynch than vote Keyser.) The worst part is that, beyond blanket statements saying "Keyser is town," there's no further interaction. There's no sense of Ircher wanting to work with Keyser in terms of town bloc; there's just continued defense and no cause.

So here's my problem. I don't think Ircher-scum sticks his neck out like this for Keyser-scum. I think Ircher knows Keyser is town, starts defending him, and just goes full balls-to-the-wall trying for the towncred once Keyser gets flipped as town.

Aquanim's Keyser association seems to start as anti-Kain sentiment. "The enemy of my enemy" and such. But the interaction seems a little more two-way ... spots where Aquanim is trying to understand Keyser's thoughts, or trying to -- well, I don't want to say "massage," but that's accurate -- massage Keyser's thoughts closer to his. It strays towards good town work (this isn't alignment-indicative, you're reading this wrong).

[massive]

Oh I typed all that up and VOTE: Keyser

[massive]

Yeah. But at least you made me work for it a little bit there.

[massive]

Thanks for hosting, SirCakez. I honestly don't know how KainTepes works, but I guess today I am content just having watched the magic.

[massive]

As to Massive: No kudos to you. You were your same lurktastic self and I am apalled that no one really questioned whether you were town the entire game.

to be fair, this is how he always is. He posts the same amount every time. He doesn't post at specific times. He's very consistent, and I don't think that's a bad thing. I've been scum with massive before, and I really enjoyed it. When I mod, I always invite him to the games I mod, and is one of the names I look for when looking at playerlists to /in at.

If you asked me whether I would rather be 2-0 vs Ircher-town, or get kudos, I would pick 2-0 every time, by the way. And I love ya Boons.

[massive]

Getting me mislynched as town might be a good step towards proving what I've been saying all along, but you seem to be missing: ACTIVITY ISN'T ALIGNMENT INDICATIVE

This should be a teachable moment. The reason you got no one biting on voting for me (or even remotely nibbling, even really into LYLO when I could have been a good consensus lynch) is because, outside of my post frequency, you had no actual case against me. "He was scum in the last game and posted like this, he must be scum here!" is easily disproved by looking at any of my games, which are linked in my wiki.

You can fixate on me all you want, but it doesn't fix the exploitable holes in your town game, and it doesn't make this:

If you are getting consistently mislynched as town THEN FIX. YOUR. GAME. This is not "Oh well I can't help that I do scummy stuff, you should know I always do when I'm town" because YOUR JOB as town is to make so I don't have to think "is he town and just bad or is he scum?" YOUR JOB is to be the paragon of towniness. So if you are town GET RIGHT.

... any less true. When I typed this, it was very easy to channel my actual emotion because honestly, I hate being scum and I want it to be as hard as possible for town to get mislynched.

I suspect it will come with time. I think you generally have good instincts and look forward to a game where I'm NOT scum to see what working WITH you looks like, rather than AGAINST you.

(Of course, we may end up like me & BBT who are ALWAYS opposite alignment.)