VOTE: sickofit1138Sickofit1138 wrote:VOTE: Kappy
that was easiest scumlynch EVER!
Too excited.
I am a bit confused how you miss kappy's post if you're posting 3 minutes after him? I always get the messages if I'm about to get ninja'd. Just curious.
There were two people that didn't realize your vote
So, what is the point of the vote change? If you're lazy, it's much easier to keep your vote where it is.In post 35, Kappy wrote: because this is RVS and I'm lazy.
Well, you did say that you didn't know you were joining a wagon when you in actuality did know that. Can we at least agree that is confusing?In post 49, Sickofit1138 wrote: @Percuvul
Since you are still on this topic and apparently don't understand, I posted my vote and it got to the preview and it showed the two first votes and I was like eh who cares I'm fine with a wagon.
If you are fine with a wagon, why do you "defend" yourself like this?In post 9, Sickofit1138 wrote:first to post at all. i didnt know i was hopping on a wagon
This just feels like frustration of being scumread while others "get away" with not being active. I think it's genuine frustration. However, I also think this notion of unfairness is more likely to come from scum.In post 180, karnos wrote: I fucking called it. Exactly what I feared, happened- see bolded text above for emphasis. And your original response? "Lurking is NAI unless you have meta blah blah". I told you from the first response that I wasn't merely concerned with lurkers, I was also concerned with a lurker who posts the absolute minimum post and then goes back to lurking.
Ha! You can vote me if you think I'm scum. Why are you so worried if it looks like an OMGUS? If you give solid reasoning why I'm scum, it's not OMGUS. You seriously think that I would vote you, because I'm afraid you're going to vote me for inactivity? Also self-meta doesn't look good to me. Apparently you're aware of what you normally do, and you do it here, so that proves... exactly nothing, except you want us to believe you're town?karnos wrote:Somehow I didn't pick up on this the first time I skimmed it. I see whats going on, I was aggressive towards hiding players, so qubixes heads me off and votes me first before he goes into hiding for the rest of the week. now I can't vote him without it being OMGUS!In post 175, qubixes wrote: VOTE: karnos
Feeling pretty tired today, so I don't think I'll be posting much more today. I'll be generally posting more in the weekends I suspect, just as a general guideline.
I don't know, maybe this is something I need to learn from. I tend to distrust hiding players in every game, feel free to look at my game history. When you give them a free pass, how can you make sure scum doesn't abuse your goodwill?
No, of course not. Although I think it's a nice bonus since the player is feeling more pressured then when there's just a single vote on them. If I would have had a strong(er) scumread on someone else I would have went for them.In post 187, species wrote:Do you feel your vote necessarily needs to go on a pre-existing wagon?In post 175, qubixes wrote:If I read correctly, there are 3 people with some votes on the apart from sickofit: Persivul, Kappy and karnos.
You did make me laugh, so I'll give you a pass on this one. As Mecha said though, a smiley can sometimes help .In post 193, karnos wrote:
I meant that in a joking manner, maybe it wasn't obvious enough. I'd absolutely vote you if I thought you were really scum, but even if you are going to hide for a day or two you have been making readable posts prior to that so I don't really have an issue.
I agree species's ISO looks pretty bad. The entrance 97 did ping me a bit when I first read it. However, I think their question to me 187was reasonable.In post 207, MechaGoomba wrote:species's ISO is pretty bad. Not necessarily for having few posts, but because the posts they have are uniformly contentless. Especially when they go into a theory discussion about the RVS self-vote, for which they apparently searched through threads, but are unwilling to discuss any actual game relevant information. 3 posts out of 7 on the same topic and it's barely even game-related.
Can I deduce from this that your read on Persivul isn't very strong?
@Saru: I can only find your/the contradiction argument as your reason to suspect persivul. Is there anything else?In post 257, Saru wrote:Also, if you were put at L-1, I would unvote you until you did defend yourself.
Summing up, I don't have a super strong town read on kappy, but I feel (gut) that he is more likely to be town. I don't feel like he has been trying to push a scum agenda. He hasn't really been trying to look town I feel.In post 262, Persivul wrote: Kappy ISO:
First 14 posts are just screwing around and prolonging RVS
Yes, but it fits in the loose profile
65 - theory
I don't think his ISO is overly concentrated on theory, so I don't have a problem with this one.
103 - "No strong reads atm," but gives a bare reads list anyway. Scum have incentive to do this because lists are generally seen as towny. As scum I've advised buddies who were in trouble to just put up a reads list, and it frequently works.
I find reads lists more of stylistic thing than anything else (I almost never give them).
181 - reads list with some reasoning. Only thing slightly controversial was putting me in town. Most people are in null. Two scum reads are safe: several people were suspicious of sick, species wasn't very active.
Actually I don't think this read list is that safe really. The wagon of sickofit was already dissipating, with both me and you off the wagon. It's not that strange that he has a lot of null's early in Day 1. I think even that scum would be more likely to balance it more to get an even distribution.
192 - "Looked it up myself. it's true!" and sheeping on karnos is bad. I asked him what he had looked up, and he said he had just verified the one quote I gave. If he were really scum hunting he should have checked several games, searching for variants of lurk and hide. Chumba did just that, saying in 204 "I was searching for lurking and hiding in his iso." Chumba's slot went up a notch for that.
I think how much time someone puts into research is more a personality thing than alignment. Ok, maybe town is naturally a little more likely to put in more effort. (Though it look like a really good opportunity for scum to jump in and take some credit for finding the pattern here (assuming Karnos is town).
201 - unwillingness to change read after karnos makes a good response
Ehh, he said he would check it and then unvote if true? He did change his read afterwards.
235 and 236 - still trying to push me v. sick when, from my POV at least, that's over.
I don't see this as pushing you vs sick, just pushing sick. Actually the fact that he goes after sick here again makes me think he is more likely town, because he's actively going in the opposite direction from the rest.
Also, a number of people have expressed an opinion on him, so the flip would be informative.
This always really bothers me, when people try to suggest a lynch and add that it also gives a lot of information. What if kappy flips town, what do we know then?
So, how do you come up with a town read?
Well, I tried to find something, but I kind of failed I'm afraid. If anything, I think the first couple of posts are really all over the place, without really much care. I think as scum he would tread a little more careful. Also, he hasn't been too concerned so far with defending himself. Or trying to get himself buddied up with someone (maybe percivul somewhat). In general I feel he has been doing more or less his own thing so far. That said, I can be totally wrong, and I'll re-evaluate my read later on. One thing I should for sure do at some point is read/skim through the games he has played so far on this site. Maybe that'll give me a better idea.In post 304, MechaGoomba wrote:Any particular things you can point to that illustrate this? Because I don't see it. Even if it's a gut read, what statements are giving you that feeling?In post 302, qubixes wrote:I think that kappy has been playing somewhat "loose". However, I think it fits more town-loose than it does scum loose at this point.
Well, kappy was already on sick before the karnos switch, so in that sense there was some investment. Also, nobody was really pushing sick at that point anymore either. Well, to me sick's push on percivul sounds over the top. I feel he is overselling his "original" case quite a bit. Of course that is part style, but it also makes it look like he has done more than he actually did.In post 304, MechaGoomba wrote:Yeah, but look at the difference between what he's doing and what Sick (another inexperienced player) is doing.In post 303, qubixes wrote:And I think that if I would think of Kappy as super strong experienced player, I might scum read him for that
Sick's case on Persy wasn't good, but it was original. He made it himself and he was going to defend it. He was invested in it. He knew he was right. Kappy, on the other hand, is throwing points out. Once he's made them, he forgets them and moves on to the next one. He has no investment in his cases.
One of these is a town player who believes they're telling the truth. One of these is a scum player who just wants to look town by having a case.
Not getting your buddy lynched, looking town, lead town, prepare someone to lynch tomorrow, figuring out PR's, bus your teammate... Lots of things to do. Of course, I don't know what scum!kappy's agenda would look like, maybe not all of the above..In post 305, Persivul wrote:What kind of agenda do you expect to see from scum on D1?In post 302, qubixes wrote:Summing up, I don't have a super strong town read on kappy, but I feel (gut) that he is more likely to be town. I don't feel like he has been trying to push a scum agenda.
I think there are players that have been more scummy, so yes I guess?In post 308, Persivul wrote:Have you seen anyone doing that? If so, shouldn't you be saying something?
Point is that scum frequently drift on D1 and see how things play out.
The game felt rather stale, with everyone kind of stuck at their positions. That is one of the reasons I thought defending kappy might achieve something. I thought that might help make the game a little more fluid again (and I thought the two main wagons were not in the same place). I also defended kappy to sort you, see if you would be interested in some new idea's, but I was rather disappointed. Not really scumreading you at the moment, but we'll see.In post 319, Persivul wrote:Who, and why?In post 318, qubixes wrote: I think there are players that have been more scummy, so yes I guess?Lazy town do. That's why we need to push people to sort them.Not sure exactly what you mean by drifting (seen the word thrown around a bit), but isn't it something town does as well?I find you suspicious.Why did you phrase your questions to me the way you did? Do you think I'm scum?What specifically about the current game state indicates that pushing someone scummy won't accomplish anything?Is it supposed to motivate me? (Hint: it doesn't) To me, it doesn't look like with the current state of the game, pushing someone I find scummy isn't going to accomplish anything.How do you intend to sort people if you don't pressure your scum reads?So why bother?
Oh, well it didn't sound like it too me. Anyway, it's good that you're at least considering other possibilities. Interested to hear your thoughts on Karnos.In post 371, Persivul wrote:Actually your response to my PBPA on kappy did have an effect. I still see him as scummy, but am considering the possibility that he's just town goofing around.In post 364, qubixes wrote:I also defended kappy to sort you, see if you would be interested in some new idea's, but I was rather disappointed.
It looks like I have been a bit overzealous indeed. I thought I would just find a couple of things, but I found really a lot. Honestly though, if you don't want to wade through the whole thing, the main point is made outside the spoiler. The only main point that I could add is that there do seem to be a decent amount of excuses in his ISO.In post 376, MechaGoomba wrote:I sorta agree with your analysis, but when I open the spoiler I drown in words and colors and argh why. Please, for the love of god, don't wall like that and especially don't do post-by-post. It's really hard to read and often can intimidate people into agreeing.qubixes wrote:I remembered reading him as very open towny, so I looked through some of his games where he was town and his play here doesn't look anything like it.
Well, the way people hop on to the wagon in itself can also give away their alignment. If we find scum lazily hopping on the wagon, that's fine with me too. Though of course if I'm correct in that karnos is actually scum, their partners are not likely hopping on lazily . I don't know really. Some people are going to be lazy regardless of alignment, so for those a summary is good to get the point across. Also, I think with a summary at the start the wall itself is more easy to follow.In post 379, Saru wrote: I'll comment on what I think about Karnos from reading your post after I look over some of his town games and meta. But, for what it's worth, just reading through your post without actually looking at the games you linked to, I do see your reasoning for suspecting Karnos.
I personally loved the colors and found that they helped me follow your points better. Seems to just be a matter of preference.
You shouldn't be fine with people agreeing with just a TL;DR tbh. Or even posting a TL;DR in the first place. Too easy for lazy scum to just agree with it and jump on the opportunity to vote. Make it harder for scum who are acting townie, not easier.
In addition to what Saru already said. The reason I made this (huge) post/case on you is to get you lynched. I don't see how it can be interpreted in any other way. And that is evenIn post 382, karnos wrote: Qubixes: I don't really feel the need to explain myself to you in detail, the majority of the points you brought up have already been explained. I will say that your entire posts reads like someone who has already decided to vote me and is just looking for excuses to justify that vote... which does match your current situation.
I think you're reading it the wrong way. He says that you need more town reads than scum reads, because there are more town than scum in the game. You had 4 scum reads and 3 town reads, so I don't see this "scum slip". He doesn't say here that there can't be 4 scum in the game (though unlikely).In post 408, karnos wrote:Actually I missed exactly what you quoted, I thought you were posting the other part of his message.
is incredibly specific, when I only indicated 4 potential scum. It means there are 3 or fewer scum in the game."there aren't that many scum in the game"
In post 388, MechaGoomba wrote: Karnos is not looking good at all. To be perfectly honest, I'd be voting him right now if Kappy was answering questions and/or being proactive.
In post 399, karnos wrote:VOTE: mechagoomba
Been near the top of my potential scum list for some time, and the last few interactions with him just gave me a bad vibe. Maybe this vote will just serve as an empty gesture, compared to the existing wagons, but I feel my prior vote is no longer serving a useful purpose.
No, I don't think you consider OMGUS a legitimate scum tell. The way you brought it up looked like you wereIn post 419, karnos wrote:You are not wrong about that first part, I am letting meta-observations from other games slip into my thinking here. However...
What I actually said:In post 417, qubixes wrote: you're the only one acting like OMGUS is a legitimate scum tell here
In all seriousness I don't consider it a scum tell
How exactly do you read "don't consider it a scum tell" to imply that I think it is a legitimate scum tell?
How am I as a reader supposed to think that you bring up something that is completely null/irrelevant?In post 410, karnos wrote: Oh I see, nice OMGUS. In all seriousness I don't consider it a scum tell, and I hate it when people act like it is a scum tell, but I can't resist point out how blatant it is in this case.
Why? Do you think his other reasons are good?
So, you're saying that either:In post 423, karnos wrote:Because it still has a meaning. I'm just saying his vote on me might not be motivated purely because he thinks I am scum, but rather as a reaction to me voting him.In post 420, qubixes wrote:
No, I don't think you consider OMGUS a legitimate scum tell. The way you brought it up looked like you wereactingthat it was. Why call it "blatant" when there is nothing scummy about it? Blatant town?! Blatant null?! Here is the quote again for reference:
How am I as a reader supposed to think that you bring up something that is completely null/irrelevant?
I don't consider it much of an attack either.In post 427, karnos wrote:
If you don't consider my read of you in 359 to be an attack, is that tacit admittance that everything I read into your ISO is true? Notice how my reads on you were longer than anyone else? Notice how I didn't really have much good to say about your ISO? Are you still confused what other reasons I had for voting you?
I answered in 205. Also, I was voting my primary scum read. I first called Kappy my biggest scum read, then called karnos a stronger [scum] read in the next paragraph. I just didn't bother to fix it in the kappy read. Also, I explained why I wouldn't have voted for kappy anyway: no recent votecount.JohnnyFarrar wrote:you're picking from those who already have votes? Why? also voting your second biggest scumread? don't like this one bit.
What made you vote karnos now?
Yes, really. I don't feel like the time before the flip is going to be of much use. For example this back and forth between you and Mecha is imo just filling up the thread and not actually getting anything done. I don't feel like anyone else is really getting anywhere either (me included). So unless someone else wants to push in a different direction, I think we're just wasting time. Saru is right that if the replacements would want something different, it might be useful to see what happens. Now, not so much.In post 505, karnos wrote:Really? I guess my opinion will be disregarded since I am the one under the microscope here, but that type of reasoning is always scummy. You have time, use it.In post 501, qubixes wrote:Personally, I don't really see the point of waiting out the deadline here. I doubt scum are going to reveal themselves regardless of Karnos' alignment. Anyone agree/disagree?
I'm not very sure yet. Connections wise with you, I think there are not a lot of people that I can just write off just given that you are scum. Also, the amount of inactives/replacements is making this quite hard at the moment.In post 510, karnos wrote:Anyway, for bloodthirsty players like Mecha and qubixes, why not use this time to be productive? If I am scum, who are my scum partners?
I'm really curious to see what you think, seeing what you think prior to my flip is much more valuable from a town perspective. If I'm going down, I'd like to take at least one scum with me.
Wouldn't he want that as either town or scum though? I mean "reaction testing" is not a town-only thing.In post 525, Wingback wrote:Yeah, he said that when making the readslist. I think he knew people would ask about why he left out Persivul and he didn't want to explain at that point and "ruin" the test. But he left a vague enough hint to avoid being pressed on it.In post 523, qubixes wrote:He did say it was "obvious" why he was leaving "someone" out. I'm assuming he is not thinking here that he is "obviously" reaction testing. So, I guess it's because he already gave his reasons?
To whom is this addressed? Me? Johnny?In post 550, Masquerade wrote:Oh so you do have something to add then?
If Karnos flips town, I think you or Masquerade would make good partners for somehow knowing he is town. I did have a town read on Mizzy though, so I'd have to check back and see if that makes any sense.
Btw, I think scum are less likely to get confused about who is who, and who is scum/town. Just some food for thought.In post 567, Wingback wrote:(the bit about calling Persivul vs Sickofit TvT doesn't make sense either since Sickofit is my slot).
It's imo not only the towncred. Getting lynch on another townie now, makes the path tomorrow much easier (get Karnos lynched). Anyway, I don't feel particularly strong about that connection, and I don't think Karnos will flip town, so it's rather futile to think about it now. Better save it for tomorrow. In case Karnos flips scum, I don't think both of them are scum. One of them maybe (leaning towards Masq then).In post 576, MechaGoomba wrote:So if they're scum if Karnos is scum and also if Karnos is town, wouldn't that just make them scum?In post 572, qubixes wrote: If Karnos flips town, I think you or Masquerade would make good partners for somehow knowing he is town.
I get what you're going for; the whole "let's oppose the inevitable wagon to get towncred when they flip town" thing is rather common.
However, I'd be more inclined to look in other places (not going to say it right now to avoid tipping people off, expect me to return to this during twilight or D2).
Not going into all of your reads, but this one caught my eye. If I read your ISO I get a the following progression of your read:In post 586, karnos wrote: Kappy - Early on, I took kappy for a null/town who could be easily miss-lynched due to an immature play style. Since than inconsistencies pushed that read down, but I still don't think he is obvious scum. Maybe I am just hanging on to hope, because I sense that defending him is part of what brought a wagon to myself, I don't want to find out I was defending a scum.
To me 112, 117, 198 read like you're scum reading him. Wrong?In post 590, karnos wrote: 171 "Since my vote isn't doing anything as far as pressure thanks to Mizzy, and I don't expect to see another post from dierfire for awhile, I'll just try this.
VOTE: Kappy
We are past the RVS silliness, what are your serious reads now? Based on your read list, you rate sickofit and chumba as scummier, yet you are still voting persivul, any reason why?"
I wasn't reading him as scum, or "slightly scummy", I was voting him because of one specific action. This is where MechaGoomba comes out and calls me scum again, because town would *never* vote unless they think they caught a real scum. When kappy returned and changed vote I figured that settled things.
>Also, I don't see you defending kappy really anywhere? I saw you were discussing with Mecha about Kappy, but I didn't figure it was a defense..
I don't know what it was, TBH. Mecha was attacking me for my read of kappy, which was null/town. I figured Mecha thought kappy was scum and wanted me to support his view, and he got upset when I stuck to my points. I don't know anymore. Was it just a pointless filler exchange?
This just feels wrong to me, in a manipulative way. Let's be honest, your case of him being town is a couple of snippets that you think make him town. The counter case is a truckload of evidence to the contrary (even if Karnos tries to present it as a bunch of meta tells). So you're presenting a niche case and you're accusing others of conf-bias if others don't agree. Great! This tells me that either A) you're scum or B) you're town, but I can't trust you (in your reads).In post 597, Wingback wrote: Any town player still scumreading Karnos after this is knee-deep in confirmation bias and should re-think their views.