Mini Normal 1848 — Game Over!

[Toto]

I am excited

VOTE: Naomi

Creeps signing up has ruined my RvS plans but I'm still sticking with my gut that I'll vote for one of the people who has a more than two year old mafiascum account

Chaos has an older account. VOTE: Chaos

Why choose Naomi instead of Chaos?

[Toto]

We can do several claims in one day if necessary

I don't like this. Making several people claim only narrows down the pool for scum to find the PRs.

[Toto]

I did a one pass through the thread. I'll try to dig deeper later.

I don't like Misa the most so far.

I'm having a hard time thinking of some players as scum because I've played with like 1/2 of you and you were town in my previous game. (Copper, HS, Uzi, Naomi). I'm not allowed to talk about my other game with 2face I think. So I'm suspecting the new-to-me players the most now which is probably a bit dumb.

Creeps is also acting weird. The 'enraged' reaction of Misa to creeps could indicate an early fake bus to distract us.

If Creeps is scum it makes ThinkBig a bit more suspicious in my view due to 'derailing' the Creeps wagon to Misa. But since I suspect Misa too I think he is most likely town.

[Toto]

VOTE: Misa

[Toto]

TB can I see a preliminary readslist? I can explain why I want one from you specifically but I'd rather see it first.

Sure.

Town Reads

1. MortFeld
2. Lil Uzi Vert
3. Naomi-Tan

Scum Reads

1. Copper223
2. HS (I don't like how he asked Drone a question when he hasn't confirmed/posted yet. If he flips scum, it is possible that Drone is his buddy).

On an unrelated note, ChaosOmega and Toto need to get in the game. Mod, can you please prod them?

Wait, what happened to Misa? you were voting him befoe.

[Toto]

Okay. I'm not suspicious of you at the moment, just to clarify.
I really wouldn't mind creeps at L-1 to be honest. I don't think a omgushammer is likely and even in worst case scenario I don't think he's going to be of much help after today, even if he does flip green.

Drone, do you agree?

Scum slip? I don't see how you could have mistaken anyone for Drone at the time.

HS does confuse names a lot in my experience

[Toto]

ThinkBig's read/vote progression seems a bit weird.

1) Creep or Misa is scum. Main wagon on Creep but I'm going to vote Misa.
2) Vote copper
3) Misa not scum anymore?

[Toto]

Spoiler: The Catch Up Wall

Sorry copper. Scum can't be lynchbait cause the goal is to lynch scum.

This is objectively false.

Scum can definitely be lynchbait because that's about your playstile and not what alignment you roll in a game, what happens when a player that is lynchbait as town plays another game and rolls scum, he magically becomes not lynchbait?

Thinkbig, why did you vote for Copper?

TB is not explaining himself, you are making stuff up, which one looks scummier to you?

The point is I did not know he was lynchbait when I could have pushed him to get a reaction or I was already on his wagon when I said I thought he was, either way what you are saying does not work chronologically.

I am v/la as I mentioned. I'll try to answer in this post.

Okay Mort, you are at the very least pretending to game solve and maybe it was just us butting heads because we are seeing things very differently from our own perspectives.

I don't see much (other than him being less active, but the same goes, much more so, with Toto) from HS that points at him being a different aligment from our recent game where he was town.

I have my theory on the drone comment but I want to hear what he says first.

VOTE: ThinkBig
You are next on the: why did you jump on the copper wagon list, you appear to also be game avoiding. I also want to hear your answer to Mort's questions.

What is your theory on the Drone question?

As far as copper, the reason why I voted for copper is because of him twisting the lynchbait discussion. For now, I will unvote.

UNVOTE: Copper

Hey all,

I am on V/LA until after the election on Tuesday

. The majority of my posts are coming from my iPhone. Therefore, my posts may not be able to be as substantive as I'd normally like it to be.

TB can you answer my post regarding your read/vote progression? How does that make sense?

[Toto]

I've been trying to follow the lynchbait discussion and to be honest I'm not making too much sense of it. It seems like a small thing that somehow got into a big discussion, and some people are trying to make scum reads based on it which makes me think there is one scum in there {2face, copper, mort}

[Toto]

I feel like Copper bragging about their win percentage is LAMIST. Even if you win as town 80% of the time, what if this game is the 20% of the time you lose? This doesn't take in account confounding variables, i.e.:

• Scummy town
  
• Towns gambitting
  
• People unfamiliar their meta (either as town or scum)
  
• Scum with good logic
  So on and so forth...

I don't understand what you mean with your list, how does that relate to what copper said?

[Toto]

VOTE: Think big
Pressure is a town's best friend. So shall we create it? Yup

I don't like the rationale for this vote. You want to
Pressure him by putting him at l-3 and tell him you are doing this for pressure. How is that going to work?

@hs/copper/chaos: see some resemblance?

[Toto]

Toto - I feel they also might be red, I feel there green game has more than they put in so far.

I could say the same thing about you. I, like you, am also having trouble following the discussion.

[Toto]

Toto - I feel they also might be red, I feel there green game has more than they put in so far.

I could say the same thing about you. I, like you, am also having trouble following the discussion.

[Toto]

(sorry for double post)

[Toto]

I think TC wouldn't be too happy with the comparison.

TC is a logical player that follows his win-con, I don't think Creeps can be analyzed the same way...

I think understand what you mean here. However:

1) That was one of TC's least logical moments.
2) I still don't see the good intentions behind the posts I saw with other newbtown that were playing bad. Like you say the guy is just trying to stay alive today.

How do you propose we analyse him?

[Toto]

TB's wagon is probably a dead end until he is back from VL//A

[Toto]

@Copper: I'm sorry you had to replace out.
Let's try to keep things civilized guys. I also dislike colorful language. I understand some people use it to create pressure but it really doesn't help town in the end.

[Toto]

The big 'ol ThinkBig Compendium:

In 112 he votes Misa because Creeps is at L-2. When pressed for why he voted Misa (Creeps being at L-2 is not a reason to vote Misa) he gave in 180 a reason LUV had already given, and another reason someone else had given, though I forgot who.

In 203 he jumps on the Copper wagon, giving no explanation at the time. Finally when he explains in 373 he says he voted Copper because Copper twisted the lynchbait discussion. The entirety of the lynchbait discussion took place after TB voted Copper. He also unvotes Copper in this post without an explanation.

I asked TB for a reads list because I was starting to wonder if he even had reads at all, or was just voting where other people seemed to. The list he gave in 207 was very odd because former scumreads were suddenly missing, with no explanation in the post. It also left out a majority of the game's players, assumedly null reads? In 209 he explains his shift on Creeps but never answers Toto's question in 249 about Misa.

These inconsistencies are the main part of my case at least. Whether or not he's game avoiding can't be proven so I'd rather focus on the posts he has made?

In 115, he says Misa is scummy before LUV posted that. And my reasoning for voting Misa was laying there, too. He could have stolen it, but it doesn't feel that way to me.

There was also the lynchbait discussion that you were a part of right before his vote from 200-202. Again, this leads to the point of, did he just steal the reasoning? Maybe. I'm more likely to believe he stole it here, since he pairs it with a weird unvote without explanation as you mention. If this was all his thought process, he should have reasoning why he unvotes after considering the information. Could be that he saw TwoFace was the only person left with him and he didn't like how the wagon looked.

The point on Misa being excluded from the list in 207 is a good point. You want to respond to that now, ThinkBig?

I've been trying to get an answer of him for a while now. The read/vote progression is quite weird. I find it odd he came back to 'respond to questions' but somehow missed this.

See 328 and my prompt in 406

This makes me more suspicious of Misa+TB

[Toto]

I wouldn't object to a misa lynch. Much better than a TB lynch. Not as good as a copper or HS lynch though.

We are not lynching anyone until we have all replacements.

[Toto]

I don't like 2Face's 'policy lynch' wagon. Specially the people who are town reading him and still voting him. How is that pro-town?
A green flip in 2face's slot will make me more concerned about most people in this wagon. Wobbuffet reads to me like he was adding more wood to the fire by being 'lazy'.

Chaos, what's the point of voting Misa now (I know my vote is parked there) but you just made a decision to vote between Wobuffet and Misa and chose Misa.

UNVOTE: Misa

[Toto]

Im surprised you missed that when copper brought it to our attention.

[Toto]

Toto and Creeps are either masons or are so in synchronization with each other that they know precisely how to fuck with me.

Huh? you seem to be role fishing again here.

VOTE: HS

[Toto]

I would Claim but that is useless for me as my role really dosen't really scream 'town'

... yeah that was my other reason, when he said he was so nervous he did not want to post he reminded me of Gideon (for

HS

, Toto and Chaos).

Yeah, you missed that after going 2x through Copper's ISO.

[Toto]

There are no town motivations here. There are few scum motivations either, but there are some. I think you might have given yourself away with

I understand this can be flipped into red trying to protect a fellow red, but that isn't the case. I just really want to avoid lynching pretty obvious town at all costs.

though it would be dumb for TF's scum buddy to say anything like that.

I don't think HS + TF can be scum partners at this point given how badly HS wanted to kick TwoFace out of the game. If that was acting then I would be very impressed. I think this was more of an excuse to jump on the lynch of a townie later and avoid consequences.

I don't think Naomi is scum, I believe that she really is affected by TwoFace's toxicity and that a policy lynch could be !green motivated. Drone started the policy lynch, which could be scum motivated but I think scum would be more likely to jump on the wagon rather than to start it. So if TF is town, that leaves Chaos and Wobbu as possible->likely scum. But I think HS is more likely, that whole Creeps thing is so weird.

I actually agree with this analysis.

[Toto]

Toto why did you vote HS? Just bc of what you perceived as role fishing?

That and also the fact that they were reading 2face as town but still decided to vote them.

[Toto]

Toto why did you vote HS? Just bc of what you perceived as role fishing?

That and also the fact that they were reading 2face as town but still decided to vote them.

and also the fact they may have lied about not knowing about the soft claim. I just don't see how they missed that post (Gideon was an important player in our previous game).

[Toto]

I voted TF because even though I believe they're probably town, I think lynching them is worth it just because even if they do end up flipping town, we don't lose much because they're not contributing to town by giving actual reasoning anyway.

As town you don't lynch other people you think are townies. That's just stupid and gives scum all kind of excuses to get away with.

In fact, I would be fine policy lynching anyone that wants to lynch people they are reading as town. That's scum motivated and if town is a really bad play. That's what a real good policy lynch is about.

[Toto]

Wobbuffet what previous experience you have playing mafia?

[Toto]

I don't see any motivation for the half push onto Creeps other than HS and TF both being scum - do you?

Creeps soft claimed.

[Toto]

That was my reason. Make of it what you will. I'm not going to go and make up another reason just to make myself look less scummy. I've already unlynched them after being told that my reasoning was bad (I agree that it wasn't all that solid).

Wobbuffet what previous experience you have playing mafia?

I've played a lot of chat mafia on a different site.

This reads very honest to me by the way.

[Toto]

To be frank your slot has been the primary scum case so far, and then decided to drop out, you might want to start there.

[Toto]

To be frank your slot has been the primary scum case so far, and then decided to drop out, you might want to start there.

@Kamelot ^^^

[Toto]

I think it's silly to imply that I suggested this as scum knowing that Creeps has softclaimed to try and nab the role.

Yes, this is why I'm worried that you lied about knowing that creeps had soft-claimed. Only scum has motivation to lie in this case. Perhaps you thought not many people had noticed.

So the only options left are HS is Town and either knew Creeps' softclaim or didn't know Creeps' softclaim, or HS is scum and didn't know Creeps' softclaim.

...or scum!HS did know about the claim but pretended not to know.

There is also the fact that you were role-fishing and also voted someone you were town-reading before. As Chaos points out, this could be just inexperienced town but, again, it could also be inexperienced scum. The motivation for these plays here are more likely to come from scum.

I'm actually more worried about the potential lie. I could see the rest as town misplay.

If I'm lynched today let it be known that I very strongly townread TF, strongly townread Uzi and Mort and that my main suspects at this time are ThinkBig and Misa's slot.

I don't see the scum motivation here unless you want to create post flip associations. Can you explain your reads?

[Toto]

The VT claim and the reads look genuine to me. I'm having second thoughts. UNVOTE: HS

[Toto]

The VT claim and the reads look genuine to me. I'm having second thoughts. UNVOTE: HS

shouldn't you find the easy claim more suspicious? could you expand a bit more here?

You mean the VT claim? I think scum!HS would have claimed a PR in this situation if he really just wanted to stay alive. The way they presented the reads and the claim look more like they are actually trying to help town.

[Toto]

Well I don't know what else you want me to say. They were role fishing, they could have claimed some investigative role or something to back up that behavior. Instead they claimed VT. I may still be wrong but I have a gut feeling that HS is town after that post.

I'm not lynching people when I think they are town.

[Toto]

Why on earth would a VT ROLEFISH!? You guys kidding!?

When you put it that way it does sound bad, but this post made me reconsider.

Yeah, I was in the first game with HS. I was scum and thought they were doctor with how they were looking for PRs. I get role-fishing is bad and makes you look scummy, but I don't think it's a scumtell in this case.

And Toto is HS's scumbuddy.

This is just absurd.

[Toto]

I went to our previous newbie 1744 and tried to find references of HS role-fishing and could only find this:

I also think it's potentially a very bad thing people are viewing Copper as so towny so consistently in general. There are two possibilities, Copper is scum and now hard to lynch, or Copper is town and now has a target on his back.

It could be disastrous if he carried a power role

. I don't think he does, though.

The tone above was that of a concerned townie being protective of our PRs. I think the rolefishing going on here is different:

Guys, I think TwoFace is claiming vig. He's constantly asking to last until day 2.

Funny this comes on the heel of TwoFace's best post all game. I could've used that pages ago.
But holy shit having him as a vig would be RIP.

Toto and Creeps are either masons or are so in synchronization with each other that they know precisely how to fuck with me.

The tone of these three posts sound more like HS is actually threatened by the town PRs and wants to get rid of them. Here is one more thing which I think is very bad:

I also think it's potentially a very bad thing people are viewing Copper as so towny so consistently in general. There are two possibilities, Copper is scum and now hard to lynch, or Copper is town and now has a target on his back.

It could be disastrous if he carried a power role

. I don't think he does, though.

I wasn't aware at the time, because in my first game both roles were hardclaimed D1 (and town went on to win!), but I'll take that knowledge (role fishing=bad for town) and put it in my databanks for next game.

Contrast the two posts. In first post HS is very aware that putting a target on PRs is a bad thing. In the second one they say they did not know how that was bad for town.

I think I'm convinced now

VOTE: HS

[Toto]

Reading now. Didn't realize how long this thread got before I left.

I am still trying to learn the game and not quite sure what to do.

This is a good summary

Welcome Road! Your slot has been fairly scummy but nothing extremely egregious. 596 is HS' summary of events, I don't think it's entirely accurate but you can judge for yourself after reading.

In order of who I find most scummy to least:

HS has been PR hunting, voted someone they explicitly townread, made a weird push during a policy lynch wagon to policy lynch a player who had softclaimed and who nobody was talking about, ISO me and Toto's recent posts for this

Wobbu's slot got in a dumb argument with me and TwoFace that lasted a long time and accomplished little, during the TF policy lynch wagon Wobbu voted TF, saying the reason was 'TF isn't contributing so it's not a huge loss even if they're town'

ThinkBig has had allegations of game avoiding, sheeps reasoning, sheeps votes, voted Copper and then gave a bad reason that (arguably) came chronologically after TB's vote, posted a reads list that was inconsistent with his vote

Chaos has taken a backseat where in the past as town he's lead discussion (though he was V/LA for large part of this game), hopped on the TF policy lynch wagon very quickly

Your slot has not been game solving, has made some posts that did not seem genuine, replaced out when pressure mounted again

TwoFace has been aggressive but not in a gamesolvey way, got town mired in a semantic argument with Wobbu's slot, is distracting to the point where 5 people tried to policy lynch him, HS's push onto Creeps during the TF policy lynch might be scum trying to protect scum

That should cover it. Creeps has made a large number of weird scumposts but they are so bad that I personally am treating them as NAI for now. Also, pressuring Creeps tends to do nothing unless you vote him, then he scumreads you.

1) Start by addressing the case against you.
2) Let us know what you think of the other cases.
3) Tell us who is town and who is scum according to you.

[Toto]

Toto, you've clearly learned a whole lot since our last game, whereas I've gotten overconfident and sloppy. Either that or the shift in your player meta indicates scum, but I'm apprehensive about that because you're reading somewhat town to me.
Addressing post 922.
In this post I wasn't rolefishing. I was moreso thinking about how if everybody townreads Copper, he's essentially confirmed town, which is bad to the mafia. Therefore, that makes him a good target to kill (confirmed townies are bad for mafia), and if he by chance happened to be a PR, then we lose something very valuable. I don't think it proves knowledge that's applicable to this game.

Well to me even discussing whether Copper is a PR or not is a form of role-fishing. The point is that here is that this is much more subtle and more defensive of town.

I'd also like to here from Chaos about other examples but I read the Mafia PT in that game and he was actually talking about that there so I don't think he is lying.

[Toto]

@mod heads up I have V/LA this weekend.

Noted. -Mod

[Toto]

this statement is also WIFOM. your welcome.

This made me lol.

This is a bit too much even for Naomi. I have a hard time

literally

reading her all the time though.

[Toto]

To expand on the fair vote comment - I agree that scum might play the way I am playing, inadvertently. Perhaps my reads list would help you believe I do have an idea of how the game is progressing?

I'm working with:

{

Creeps, Toto, Drone, LUV, TF

}
{Chaos, Naomi, Nero}
{

Road, TB

}
{

Wobbu, HS

}


Pedit: Yes... Road asking for a tl;dr was the reason I posted the reads list. You said that the Misa slot was AFK at the time I posted that, which is not true. I didn't say that asking for the list was my reason for SRing the Misa slot - those reasons were explained in the post.

Wobbu is town.

[Toto]

Wobbu is town.

Why?

I had a slight town read on copper. I understand why some people read Copper as scum, I think it's his personality. I had a scum read on him a large part of my newbie, but he ended up as town.

And this:

That was my reason. Make of it what you will. I'm not going to go and make up another reason just to make myself look less scummy. I've already unlynched them after being told that my reasoning was bad (I agree that it wasn't all that solid).

Wobbuffet what previous experience you have playing mafia?

I've played a lot of chat mafia on a different site.

This reads very honest to me by the way.

[Toto]

Wobbu is town.

Why?

I had a slight town read on copper. I understand why some people read Copper as scum, I think it's his personality. I had a scum read on him a large part of my newbie, but he ended up as town.

And this:

That was my reason. Make of it what you will. I'm not going to go and make up another reason just to make myself look less scummy. I've already unlynched them after being told that my reasoning was bad (I agree that it wasn't all that solid).

Wobbuffet what previous experience you have playing mafia?

I've played a lot of chat mafia on a different site.

This reads very honest to me by the way.

[Toto]

Like, he could have played the newbie card but he didn't.

[Toto]

Re: Wobbu being Green bc he didn't play the newbie card
Seems NAI at best? As in, by Toto's argument, Wobbu did not respond in a way that was a Red! tell, but the reason for voting TF in the first place did not come from a reasonable Green! motivation. Seems to cancel each other out at best, though I do not think that his response was particularly Green! either. NAI response + Red! motivated vote = Red.

1) He said his reasoning was bad =~ I don't have a lot of experience.
2) He answered the second question saying he has some experience in other sites. He could have said he didn't have any experience.

He kept honest.

Anyway, this is just my gut read from that interaction.

[Toto]

He kept honest.

Scum aren't going to lie if they don't have to. At least they shouldn't.

But we're talking about wobbuffet who's been caught lying multiple times. So how do you ignore those and say he's been honest?

I guess I still don't understand the case. I will read again tonight.

[Toto]

I do get the feeling that they're a townie who's made the mistake of not justifying their scumreads and being overly defensive.

I used to TR TwoFace, but I'm not so sure anymore. They seem to be getting overly defensive whenever anyone makes any kind of accusation about them.

Can we go back to this for a second. Earlier you told chaos you were town reading me for being overdefsive. Now
You're scum reading me for the same thing? How does that work?

This is a good point.

@Wobbu

, what made you feel that overly defensive meant green in the first post and red in the second post. Explain your thought process. This is bad because it feels you are adapting the reasons to fit your read. Which could mean it is not a real read.

[Toto]

Toto in particular has been fucking incredible at this. I'm sorry I was so hard on you last game bro.

Are you being nice to me for realz or are you just trying to gain my trust?

[Toto]

I left you guys alone for two days and you let HS dodge the rope...

Misalot does look still look bad though so I'm ok with a lynch there. I'd still prefer a HS lynch. In the worst case they are VT. All these wagons are not going to help town. I don't like the massclaim idea either.

I'll catch up in more detail later today.

[Toto]

@Toto - explain why so many wagons are bad for town? If I didn't push on RK we wouldn't have gotten 1. RK's awful response and 2. HS to react to RK. HS push has been much of the game's content. Result of the Creeps push is a lot of the reason I read him/Shadow Green.

Too many wagons force claims which only help mafia. Who are the PRs is the only info mafia doesn't have. We might as well massclaim. This is why I don't like either.

I have to think about this new way of claiming.

[Toto]

But the wagons so far have only forced one claim, and it's not a PR and that slot is probably Red. Too many wagons are bad if they force claims - if they just help sort alignment, many wagons are good, no?

So far we are good.

[Toto]

HS obvtown posting has ramped down after they are no longer in danger.

[Toto]

HS obvtown posting has ramped down after they are no longer in danger.

No it hasnt
Still p sure this is scum tbh.
In fact as either alignment activity goes up and
calling the posting 'obvtown posting' while simultaneously throwing shade on HS rly rly sucks

I missed the '' in 'obvtown'.

For what is worth, I think HS's might have been trying to pocket me. I didn't like the fact that they were calling me an imbecile every other post in our newbie and then here I'm suddenly their bro and an excellent player. Also why are you singling me out here?

[Toto]

I sort of thought the same. what i got from that post was a lot of honesty. HS really believes this about my play. what i do think is that any self-aware scum (and imo if hs is scum he has to be at least a little self aware) wouldnt spend so long defending me only to vote me. it looks really terrible.

You say this yet disagree that the rate of towny looking posting has gone down. If they post towny looking stuff they are obvtown, if they post scummy looking stuff they are town mistakes. What makes you so sure HS is town?

[Toto]

Yes my play has improved. Uzi could also confirm that. I played my first newbie even worst than the second one. I have played almost one other full mini and have learned a load more there.

The point is that you only switched your attitude towards me until I after I pushed your wagon. how is not that suspicious? And your playstyle has changed multiple times IN THIS game depending on your position. How do you explain that?

[Toto]

No I didn't. I wasn't dismissive of you this game at all. It was only when I realized your work on my wagon that I realized how much better you'd become.
It's not suspicious because what's the scum motivation?

From my point of view it looks suspicious because, you know, I'm pushing your lynch and you suddenly become friendly. That's way different on how you would have reacted in the previous game.

My playstyle hasn't changed at all. That's just a lie.

Yes you have, you have become more or less bloodlusty depending on number of people on your wagon.

[Toto]

Am I just tunneling HS unfairly here? I want to hear thoughts of everyone else.

[Toto]

I like Arc more than I liked TB to be honest. But maybe that's just because they don't like HS.

Arc, can you summarize your case for TwoFace? Why are you scum reading him? do you have any townreads?

[Toto]

In post 1410, Nero Cain wrote:
Angel has and always will be "lurky". Ita NAI.


Do i lurky now? I lurk when i am busy. You should know my style by now.

Isn't this what he said?

[Toto]

Hey Shadow, you care joining the discussion?

What do you think of the game so far?

[Toto]

I think I said this earlier but I'm going to say it again. I throw out any thoughts I have about a slot when the predecessor gets replaced. I'm not sure if this is a good habit or not but it hasn't failed me so far and I don't see a reason to break it.

You said the same thing about Wobbu. I don't agree with this TBH, Arc is a more experienced player and less likely to make mistakes that would reveal her alignment.

I don't disagree with your thoughts about Arc, though.

[Toto]

I do get the feeling that they're a townie who's made the mistake of not justifying their scumreads and being overly defensive.

I used to TR TwoFace, but I'm not so sure anymore. They seem to be getting overly defensive whenever anyone makes any kind of accusation about them.

Can we go back to this for a second. Earlier you told chaos you were town reading me for being overdefsive. Now
You're scum reading me for the same thing? How does that work?

This is a good point.

@Wobbu

, what made you feel that overly defensive meant green in the first post and red in the second post. Explain your thought process. This is bad because it feels you are adapting the reasons to fit your read. Which could mean it is not a real read.

Wobbu I don't think you answered this ^^^? did you?

[Toto]

Chaos was posting once/twice a day in our previous game. I think this time he is lurking more. On the other hand he

was

the main focus of the game then so I don't know if this how he behaves in normal circumstances.

Arc's recent posting reads like town to me so I'm ok to try this out.

If he replaces out this wagon is not going to go anywhere, though.

VOTE: Chaos

[Toto]

Arc seems like she was genuinely mediating between two people and trying to move the game forward which is a town attitude. That's also why I have slight town read on Road..

I thought she could be just stalling the game to save HS but I don't think they are partners because HS attack on her seemed genuine. So I think Arc is probably town.

After hearing from Chaos I'm going to UNVOTE: Chaos for now.

Reading latest HS vote pattern seems like this was just another attempt to save their own ass.

I need to re-read all this but I think I'm pretty convinced about HS today.

[Toto]

Yes I voted Chaos to get him to talk and move the game forward.

Chaos+HS could have been a thing but after that reaction I don't think it is. hS votes was very non-committal which could have been bussing and I wanted to see where that led.

[Toto]

Yes I voted Chaos to get him to talk and move the game forward.

Ok I want to work this out because I see people say this on other forums and I think it is very dumb.

The only reason that being voted serves as incentive for a quiet person to talk is if they are lurking on purpose.

If they're town, they would not be lurking on purpose, so you voting them doesn't do anything. They'll post when they can.
If they're scum, then what do you learn from them talking? How does the thing that scum says help move the game forward? Unless the things they say are scummy, but you unvoted Chaos.

Sorry, maybe I did not explain this very well. I wanted to get him to talk AND see what he would say, specially about HS. I was worried that HS+Chaos are scum buddies.

HS's vote is non-committal, easy to remove later, and you can think of my vote as double reaction test. Actually, thinking about it, the fact that HS hesitated with Drone is worrying me again about this.

Chaos response seems like a legitimate case on HS on the surface. If that is the case then I don't think Chaos and HS is a thing because that would basically kill HS at this stage. I think it would be too early to throw your partner under the bus like that. That's why I unvoted and said I want to reread all this first anyway. I need to think this through.

Anyway, this isn't as important as you responding to 1594.

You said that you saw Arc as mediating between two people, which is a town thing to do. Who was Arc mediating between.?

They were mediating between 2F and HS earlier. Also the way they are talking to 2F seems pro-town to me. The mediation between HS and TF could have been a ploy to get votes of HS, but HS really wanted to kill TB/Arc earlier, again I think it would be too early to bus so aggressively. If HS is partner with Chaos or Arc then they would be playing very badly.

[Toto]

That's exactly what you fucking did. How else are you supposed to interpret that post.

I never claimed vig. You did that for me.

All I did was ask to be left alive until day 2 which is why any town PR would want when they are getting run up.

I am against both of you trying to rip each other apart in the game. I am having a strong hunch that both of you could be town, I see your motives are strong none of you being manipulative. This is what rage townies do it each other, so be smarter and better and shift your focus to someone else for a change and see if it changes the way game is moving on.

@Mort ^^^

[Toto]

Your town read on Toto is based on what?

Did you mean 2F?

I don't have a strong town read on 2F, mostly null/nai but leaning town side. He is being 2Face and he is trying to figure things out by pressuring people.

[Toto]

Somehow her sr on me disappeared and she did become a mediator.

This is actually a good point.

[Toto]

I will re-read the thread tonight. To be even fairer you two are posting more than the rest of us combined, and sometimes I can not follow every interaction or post in detail. Try to condense down the information.

From what you have just said it looks like it could be Arc + HS. Chaos is still a possibility and I want to dig deeper into his case on HS later to make sure it is genuine.

[Toto]

Its possible that one of both or both HS & Twoface could be scum. I have a history of identifying scum with a hunch.

I am having a strong hunch that both of you could be town

This read progression really needs some explanation.

[Toto]

I'm finally getting people who are actually thinking this game through. People like Kamelot, Drone and Chaos. I knew you'd pull through.

"Oh, you think I'm town, you're really thinking the game through." It's weird to hold this opinion and then immediately vote me afterwards because there was support for it. Super opportunistic.

I did notice this before but didn't pay so much attention that

Chaos

was in this list. Chaos had posted so very few times before this.

I don't want to put HS at L-1 yet. It'd be nice if Arc could answer my question about read progression before the day is over.

[Toto]

UNVOTE:

Should have done this earlier.

Actually I think

this is L-2

VOTE: HS

We only have 1 day left. I'm ok with this or Arc today.

@Key can we get an official vote count?

[Toto]

With 13 Alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day One will end in 1 day, 0 hours, 48 minutes

With 13 Alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day One will end in 4 days, 6 hours, 28 minutes

Nevermind

[Toto]

Have you read the game?

[Toto]

I don't follow

[Toto]

I have a feeling that plan won't work.

[Toto]

I guess we could try lynching a potential buddy to trim down the movement options. What do you think of Arc?

[Toto]

Need to catch up with this. Here are some thoughts.

Thinking about Arc + HS. It would be too obvious for Arc to defend HS so hard if they were partners. If one goes down the other soon follows. So I don't think HS + Arc is a thing anymore.

[Toto]

Chaos, if you are truly a cop this was a shitty play. Even if you were not going to be so active you could at least have waited for L-1. You were at L-3.

[Toto]

Chaos, you really need to explain that RB vote, unless you have a very clear case on wobbu/RB now, it doesn't make sense with what you said before about claiming to move the game forward. RB is a replacement and he has 70 pages to catch up with before he can answer any questions.

I don't like the idea of lynching a claimed cop but, dude, really, if you are a cop you need to give us a hand here.

UNVOTE: HS

I'm not moving voting until this shit is clarified. I don't like Arc's confidence but I don't like Chaos claim either.

[Toto]

It's going to make what I'm going to do to you tonight so much more enjoyable

Sorry I could not resist.

[Toto]

reeps is apparently negative utility PR or something. He's town but has said that we should be careful of a 'Framer' because his role doesn't 'scream town'.

Can't tell if Miller claim or just fucking scum LOL.

The fact Shadow_Step replaced creeps almost seals the deal for me. I can lynch Shadow.

If he is a miller doesn't that confirms Chaos?

VOTE: Arc

[Toto]

It's unlikely that both Chaos and Creeps are lying. I was torn between Arc and Chaos, but after this observation I think Chaos is out of the question for today.

[Toto]

Ok, I think I get where you are coming from.

My thinking:

If we have a Miller

, a Cop makes sense. Chaos is not lying unless

1) He noticed Creeps was claiming Miller. I did not notice it and I don't think many people did. (maybe he didn't)
2) They are both scum and fakeclaimed to complement each other

I'm assigning a low probability to (1) and (2).

[Toto]

Another way to see it: if we have a miller then we probably have a cop. So if we have a miller Chaos is probably not lying.

[Toto]

Yes. But

(3) doesn't the existence of a miller makes cop very likely (mod doesn't add roles randomly, I think).
(4) is easy to check. Miller is a modifier and we don't lose anything if Shadow says it is so.

[Toto]

UNVOTE: Arc

[Toto]

Something you said. Need to think this through.

[Toto]

Ok, there is no way to solve this without Shadow's and Arc's participation. So:

1) Shadow, what do you think of Chaos' claim?
2) Arch, do you still want to lynch Chaos?

[Toto]

Well I'm interested in both answers. But (1) by itself helps because it eliminates some of the cases we discussed before.

[Toto]

Mort, can you let them answer the questions first? I can explain later what my intention with this was. Spelling it out for them defeats the whole purpose...

[Toto]

On my mobile. Won't have too much time to post today. Ill be online tomorrow.

I really thought for a minute Arc had soft counter claimed cop. That would explain the 100% confidence. I guess another pr makes some sense but I don't understand why Arc thinks its so unlikely to have a cop.

I will read up on naomi and drone tonight. Ill vote to avoid a nl but I have a feeling this will flip green either way.

[Toto]

I'm back and catching up.

Drone, I haven't read your ISO yet but given the sate of the game I think you should start by claiming your role. Here is my

Intent to Hammer

if you needed one to do so.

[Toto]

I just read the 5 pages I missed. I wish I hadn't. I will have more to say about this after the game.

[Toto]

I don't want to provoke more pointless discussion. I'm not talking about just about TF but pretty much everyone in this game. For now just focus on the game and try to get along and enjoy it.

[Toto]

I mean, cmon.
"I didn't read you, but I wanna hammer you".

:/

I just don't see any other wagons that can happen at this point. I already said I'd vote just to avoid a NL. So unless it is someone I think is probable town I'd vote any L-1 wagon at this point TBH, and my read on you has been pretty much null all game.

I'll finish up your ISO, and then throw you some questions.

[Toto]

Something something, seems to me like Mort's looking for something to kill.
But I can't elaborate right now, will do that tomorrows.
Apologies as I've been really busy lately.

This is pretty bad, looks like you are just shading Mort, specially since you never actually followed up on this from what I can see.

Other than that:
+ Voting pattern/reasoning does look a bit dodgy, but that could be just your style. IDK.
+ Trolling 2F certainly doesn't help town.

I'm not convinced here but I think this is enough for me and we have to end this day.

If you are town, other than me and mort, who do you think is scum and why? and who do you think is town and why?

[Toto]

Okay Drone, if you are town I apologize.

I hereby release you from the burden of this game. I'm going to bed.

VOTE: Drone

[Toto]

Hit or miss?

[Toto]

Yeah, I have growing feeling that this going to flip green.

[Toto]

I really didn't think there was going to be another wagon today, and his ISO wasn't really screaming town to me. I think this was the right choice.

[Toto]

I guess Key must be sleeping. I'm going to bed now.

[Toto]

Im obviously being framed here. Not sure why Chaos would trade like that me.

When I flip VT shoot chaos

[Toto]

There's a lot of conf-bias here. Very disappointing. You'll feel sorry when I flip.

[Toto]

I only have one thing to say

[Toto]

Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh
Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh
Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh
Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh

La, la, la, la, la, la
La, la, la, la, la, la

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends

I seen ya around for a long long time
I really remember you when you drank my wine

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends

I'd seen ya walking down in Chinatown
I called ya but you could not look around

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends

I pay my money to the welfare line
I see ya standing in it every time

Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends
Why can't we be friends

[Toto]

VOTE: toto

[Toto]

Nero had this key. Why?

[Toto]

Im joking key. I would have done it earlier lol

[Toto]

To be fair Chaos would have died if arc didn't jail me. This was a very dysfunctional but effective town to watch

Thanks uzi. I feel I threw the game with that bus and for that I apologize to Nero and Drone.

[Toto]

@Arc I meant that he would have been NKed by me. I don't think he would have been lynched honestly, but we'll never know that now.

@HS. You seemed pretty convinced that Chaos' claim was scum on D1 too so you don't get to point fingers