Mini Normal 1917: :X Mafia (Game over!)

[Backhand]

Hello! This thread escalated quickly.

MCM, why make a big post on CCC and not change your vote?

[Backhand]

Oh, let me rephrase then: why do you scumread grendel? I thought that was more of a random vote.

[Backhand]

Ah, I see. I did read through seven pages pretty quickly, but I'm not sure your gimmick is very communicative.

There are a lot of VIs in this game.

Name names?

[Backhand]

Not real strongly, yet. I originally didn't like MCM's CCC v. Grendel position, but I see I just missed his discussion on Grendel (how could that have happened). Did not like Accountant's calling out of VIs--those first few pages weren't that bad, and it seems like a way to set up discrediting people's opinions later.

Oh, CCC is town or he attempted a super weird gambit (probably the first, he seems pretty straightforward)

[Backhand]

Did not like Accountant's calling out of VIs--those first few pages weren't that bad, and it seems like a way to set up discrediting people's opinions later.

If that was what I wanted to do it sure seems dumb that I'd also engage with them and try to understand their reads and thought process

And those few pages were bad, don't lie to yourself

PEdit: idk what to make of it

Not necessarily--you could be pretending to engage only to dismiss them later, especially if ScumAccountant didn't like where they were headed. But this is a molehill, not a mountain.

[Backhand]

You forgot about the super most important thing that's happened so far
the wagon on me!
No thoughts on anything that's happened around that?

Looks like a random wagon to me. You think you were in any danger?

[Backhand]

I think most of last night's discussion is hard to parse. A problem with theory discussion (not that I've never been guilty of doing it) is that people will generally be honest about their theory thoughts and even if you disagree, your feelings about RQS are probably not scum or town indicative.

As I said above though, CCC is pretty obviously town. Think Cheetory and DRK have done a good job of trying to move forward, slight townreads there.

Everyone else somewhere in the middle.

Leaning Scum:
MCM is obnoxious and going to be really hard to read, OMGUS voted grendel, we could do worse.
I agree accountant's VI post is more "gotcha" than real but it did ping me, I'm not forgetting about it.
Raya was a little on the defensive side, would like her to come back and catch up.

The more I reread MCM's stuff the less I like it. I don't believe that he believes that rqs is actually a scumtell.

Vote MCM

[Backhand]

rqs is not a scum tell and I never said it was
it's stupid, stupid =/= scummy, I'm not voting him for doing rqs cuz
hell, if I called rqs scummy
gamma emerald does it and policy lynching him would be crummy

In your original vote, all you called out is that rqs wasn't likely to find scum. So it sure looked like that's what you were going for.

@Accountant: If you say so, I don't read much actually being there. I do get a town feel off of cheet, so I guess that's a response to the wagon, even though I barely noticed it on my read.

[Backhand]

@mcm: Which post? Your pbpa is rqs, buddying, and OMGUS. I admit those posts were closer to each other than I remembered, I was at first looking at your sonnet where you called out rqs and moved on to your left nut.

But anyway rqs, buddying, and OMGUS are bad, bad, and worse. If it I'm missing something, feel free to explain yourself clearly.

[Backhand]

I think most of last night's discussion is hard to parse. A problem with theory discussion (not that I've never been guilty of doing it) is that people will generally be honest about their theory thoughts and even if you disagree, your feelings about RQS are probably not scum or town indicative.

As I said above though, CCC is pretty obviously town. Think Cheetory and DRK have done a good job of trying to move forward, slight townreads there.

Everyone else somewhere in the middle.

Leaning Scum:

MCM is obnoxious and going to be really hard to read, OMGUS voted grendel, we could do worse.

I agree accountant's VI post is more "gotcha" than real but it did ping me, I'm not forgetting about it.
Raya was a little on the defensive side, would like her to come back and catch up.

The more I reread MCM's stuff the less I like it. I don't believe that he believes that rqs is actually a scumtell.

Vote MCM

idk, when I read this it looks like Back Hand taking advantage of Mutton's speech gimmick.

"Player x is mildly annoying, and there are ppl voting him. Sounds like a safe place to start."

VOTE: BackHand

I don't really want to put up with a contrivance the whole game, and I'll admit that's probably coloring my views, but if you look past that to the content, you get:

An OMGUS vote, poorly explained
An OMGUS vote, not at all explained

I'm baffled as to why anyone would townread the slot.

[Backhand]

I don't know why you are reading so heavily into me, like you want to paint me as mafia. Getting scummy vibes from you.

I think its honest, but feeling unfairly read can be true of town or scum. Doesn't move my opinion off of null.

I agree to the extent that Mutton's actions don't merit a town read. However, I think there are limits to what he can achieve with the self inflicted post restriction, and that he will easily be snubbed out later if he is mafia.

However I currently feel that lynching lambchop would be about as good as a rando lynch. A majorty of the scum reads around him seem to do with his posting gimmick and him being scummy for that vs reasons I think are creditable?
----

His vote on me was dumb, but emotionally fueled frpov. I don't mind sharing a wagon with him if he is on you, reasons or no. OMGUS isn't a good tell for gauging scum btw.

Most of what you said has looked more like agenda pushing then developing and processing reads.

Yeah, I don't know what to tell you. I read the game, didn't like Accountant, MCM, and Raya, poked at Accountant and liked his answer, poked at MCM and didn't. Since raya was my third though, if you do want to share a tell on Hikari, I'd listen.

Ironically I think how MCM described his approach matches mine pretty well though. So, mcm, what in grendel's answer made you change your mind?

[Backhand]

I considered his replies satisfactory
do you need a sentence by sentence reaction to see?
like, not sure what that question means
what about my reply did you not like g

You... just said that you townread him now. So any sentence would be an improvement.

[Backhand]

NTRP, who do you scumread right now? We're 14 pages in, I'd think you'd be able to find a reason to vote somebody.

[Backhand]

I don't understand why you changed your mind because you didn't explain. What was satisfactory about his response?

I'm concerned that you're getting a weird kind of townie point, where because a smart player would know, "well, a gimmick isn't scummy" that's as far as the analysis is going--but when I look, what I see is you jumping around with weak/no explanation, and people letting it go.

[Backhand]

I'll answer your stupid question when you answer mine
give and take, ya feel, rhyme

That is fair.

If that was what I wanted to do it sure seems dumb that I'd also engage with them and try to understand their reads and thought process

And those few pages were bad, don't lie to yourself

I thought this was a good point, he has been doing a good job of engaging. And while I might not totally agree about the first few pages being bad (or maybe I've just been in very few "good" first pages), it seemed genuine.

Now, the same? You scumread grendel through a whole pbpa, why was all of that discounted?

And. . . yes paul, you need scumreads. Or, hell, since you've said a couple times you want to sheep people, I'll take townreads? Who do you want to sheep?

[Backhand]

I may be taking it too far the other way. I also don't want to have to put up with this all game, and it's leaving a bad impression - so to compensate, I'm completely ignoring my general impression and trying to work on explicit tells only.

That's what scares me--that people are compensating too much.

My first game here was viewtopic.php?f=2&t=71640 where it became very clear in retrospect that we had all given rb and thefuzzylogic too much leeway in not engaging with the game because they both had weird or disengaged playstyles. Maybe I'm overreacting to that one game, but as long as me and mcm are both in the game he'll be under increased scrutiny from me.

But I'm feeling better with this morning's interactions.

Vote notmafia

Haven't caught up yet, or don't want to? Whatcha thinking?

[Backhand]

Spoiler: drk posts

Hi Raya do you think I'm scum?

No... it's only page two of D1. Why are you asking me that?

(If you mean because you're against RQS than still no. I see where both sides are coming from around that.)

How about the way I'm going about it? Does the fact that I'm being all abrupt to Gamma Emerald about it give you bad feelings about me? Does the fact that I have a tiny townread on Gamma Emerald weird you out?

Considering it's the start of the game, anything anyone does now can be interpreted in any way and is just WIFOM.

BUT if people start talking now, it gives a lot of interaction and behaviors that can be compared to later in the game. This is good for town. So DeathRowKitty, I don't see the value in not answering some simple RQS questions. Just as mafia could use your answers against you, so can town use it as a basis to judge you as Town and have a higher chance of finding mafia as the game progresses.

so whatever I guess.

Everything you just said is incredibly silly. Do you have any reads?

You talk a lot about finding mafia and yet you seem to find find more value in answering non-game-specific questions than you do in discussing reads. Is interesting. Would you say that this utterly bizarre valuation is relevant to your alignment or is it a part of your views on mafia theory?

What about me seems scummy to you?

You talk a lot about finding mafia and yet you seem to find find more value in answering non-game-specific questions than you do in discussing reads. Is interesting. Would you say that this utterly bizarre valuation is relevant to your alignment or is it a part of your views on mafia theory?

What about me seems scummy to you?

The more people talk, the more content TOwn has to work with in identifying potential mafia. What about that don't you understand?

Mmkay, you don't seem to have understood what I was saying, so let me try again.

Not all posting is created equal. e.g. we could talk about ice cream and unicorns all day and it would be fun but we would get nowhere. I doubt you disagree with this concept.

Your posting seems to indicate that you found the random questions and the answering thereof to be a positive thing. Presumably, this means that you consider them to in some way advance the game, which you seem to understand is something that happens through reading people. Would you therefore say that it is your belief that these questions in some way help to read anyone? If so, what reads have you gained from it and what about it gave you those reads?

When I asked you about your reads, you seemed to believe that this made me likely scum. Now, scummy and anti-town aren't the same thing, but it seems likely in this case that you found it scummy at least partly because you did think it was anti-town. Is this correct?

Now, if the contentions in the previous two paragraph thingies are correct (i.e. that you found answering the questions to be a positive and that you found asking for reads to be anti-town), it would seem reasonable to conclude that you find more value in non-game-specific questions than you do in discussing reads. If so... .... ... why???



p-edit wow a lot of posts happened while i was typing this i am long-winded sry

What do you think of Mutten's OP. It read as super detached from the games state. More like checking a box for required partipation then genuine content imo

Was a truly terrible post. Weird summary post with weird snipes at weird people. I considered following your vote onto him, but I don't expect him to be particularly active in the near future (he made that post and then didn't respond to anything said after it + i've had a rhyming alt and it's a tiny bit frustrating to ever post content while posting in rhyme tbh) and that would make a wagon on him a bit meh unless we plan on quicklynching

Not liking Gamma so much anymore. Doing the opposite of liking him. Where "liking" is a synonym for "townreading" and not a personal opinion of the person because otherwise I would be very much not liking Cheetory, as always. Gamma's posts haven't been reading to me as someone looking critically at anyone and I'm pretty sure (i didn't read the things since my last post very thoroughly sry) there were multiple instances of him defending people in ways that I would expect to induce far more paranoia in town than seems to be the case for him. At the very least, his defense of CCC against Cheetory seemed that way to me and I think there was another thing too.

Unvote: Cheetory

Vote: Gamma Emerald

I feel like I should be saying something about notsure and my opinion is that he's just a distraction here. I made one particularly leading post at notsure to see what he would do with it and somehow it seems to have sent him off the deep end, so I suppose it's my fault or something. Being logic-averse and having a victim complex are both not alignment-indicative, unfortunately.

Will consider the possibility that notsure's play is likely town a bit later



Hopefully slightly clearer explanation of what I find scummy about Gamma:

There's two parts to what I don't like about Gamma's play here. The first is that I see no indication that he's expended any mental effort on trying to figure out anyone's alignment. He's poked at people a few times, but not in ways that seem to probe at alignment at all.

If you're going to read these quotes as examples, please also look at his follow-ups to them (not quoted here) - even the things that might seem like they're plausibly trying to probe for alignment no longer seem that way when you read how he follows up on them.

Wut
Is it DRK

it is

Vote: Cheetory

I'm not going to answer Grendel's questions and it would be best if no one else did either

Why are the questions bad? The one time I scumread an RQS the player was Town.

Accountant what is your actual position on doing the RQS?

I did some homework!

One of TripleC's recent games was an 11 player game in which there was 3 scum.

Newbie games have nine players, two of whom are Mafia. Here we have eleven players.

Three mafia sounds about right to me.

Given that this is something they've been interested in trying to figure out as town before, the # of games they've played in general and the different numbering in said game, I'm leaning towards believing that the # of players line of questioning is genuine.
His tone as scum is a little more forced from what I saw in the one game I skimmed and I feel like he genuinely believes his reading for his scumread on Klick.
So, town for now.

Eh it could be fake though
What other things do you find Town about CCC?

The point about me calling VIs VIs is grasping at straws.

Backhand: Didn't most of the people voting Cheet give reasons, thus making it not random? They might not have been good reasons, but certainly they had non-random scumreads on him

Query: is the grasping at straws scummy?

Then why point it out?

It's become a pattern for Gamma in this game to lob out softball and just kinda go "Mmkay, they caught it, everything seems fine." It almost kinda sorta seems productive at first glance, but it's really just white noise. I guess I'm just describing active lurking, aren't I?


The other thing that was making me uncomfortable with Gamma's play is something that I partly misremembered from my initial read, I think and I'm not sure how much I agree with it now. Will ponder it more eventually.

I checked Gamma's iso to make this post and he looks even worse that way. Which I usually try not to give weight to, but I think in this case it's the lack of other posts rather than the lack of context that makes me like it less, which I do think makes it a useful observation.

I really like the way drk engaged with raya and gamma in these posts, mcm. So I'd take him out of your pool, if I were you.

If we all think and/or know not_mafia plans on being unreadable and useless through the whole game, I'd as soon be rid of him now.

[Backhand]

As for not_mafia... I can't say you're wrong there, as a Townie who never contributes and never votes is pretty much a gift for Mafia. But I do think it would be a better idea to vote for someone who you actually think has a good chance of being Mafia, as opposed to the dead-null player.

When do you turn on the dead-null player?

[Backhand]

[quote="In post 382

An excellent question. And a difficult one.

...I'm not sure. But, for the moment, I'm willing to give him a few more days (not Days, until about Friday or Saturday) of needling in the hope of getting content out of him before I even consider some sort of policy lynch.

Or, alternatively, if you've got a lot of strong Townreads and few actual Scumreads, then you'd have a case for him as Scum even in the absense of input directly from him.

Or, I guess, if you have no actual scumreads, the silent player would be a better choice than not.

I agree on giving him a few days, he hasn't *actually* proven useless yet. But towns being so good at hitting scum Day 1 with their reads sounds like a fun hypothetical world that doesn't exist.

[Backhand]

Ugh, why can't you all have jobs where you can post at work in the afternoon like me/be in my timezone?

Not necessarily--you could be pretending to engage only to dismiss them later, especially if ScumAccountant didn't like where they were headed. But this is a molehill, not a mountain.

What about this is liking Accountant's response to you Backhand?

Am I missing something?

Tone, mostly. That was a shrug and move on response, and since then he has definitely not been dismissive (except to gamma, but that wasn't what I was talking about)

Been there. Don't let Tywin's defeatist theory get you down Backhand.

I'm not as angry about it as he was/is, but I do think Day 1's are really hard and its very clear to me that the current "no policy lynch" meta is allowing people to get away with intentionally bad play, and the credible threat of a lurker lynch is important. Accountant and grendel don't have to like it, that's fine.

Haven't caught up yet, or don't want to? Whatcha thinking?

what??????

I think notmafia should participate in the game, since we've gotten one post from the slot the whole game. Not sure why that's confusing.

Post on notsure/NTRP next (also seriously, notsure and not mafia in the same game, uncool)

[Backhand]

Well, I was going to do a PBPA on NTRP, but I only got two posts in and I realized he's either town or is playing a deeper game that his other posts don't really back up (no offense, I hope)

I think NotTheRealPaul is probably scum. The selfvote + questionnaire answering felt like a really bad attempt to fit in/insert self into game and their post was more or less an isolated island that didn't touch on what was being discussed around them. This is scummy because mafia find it way easier to put themselves into a game through easy to fake stuff like selfvote jokes or answering NAI questions rather than put themselves in the midst of real discussion.

VOTE: NotTheRealPaul

oh crap you caught me

Let me just hop onto the maf thread and ask cheetory what to do.

This is a townslip. Could be fake, but like CCC, I doubt it.

[Backhand]

Notsure is *extremely* defensive. I said this earlier, but being unfairly read can be true of town or scum. But its really hard to penetrate.

This shows me you know how a Town should scumhunt, but you, as mafia, have no problem doing the opposite.

How should town scumhunt? Tbh, I think you've made one scumread that wasn't just counterattacking, and that was calling hiraki scummy for being a detached observer. Expand on that?

Also in the future, I'd advise putting your readlist in order of scumminess rather than scattershot, it makes them easier to comprehend.

[Backhand]

How is it a townslip?

This game explicitly does not have daytalk.

Ah, shit. I misread, mafia did have daytalk for 48 hours. So, take that one back.

[Backhand]

I don't townread you particularly strongly, but also I don't think that matters--why do you think that? Mostly I've been commenting on what I missed last night, the only thing you've said at me recently was that you didn't like my policy lynch suggestion, and I spoke to that. What else is on your mind?

[Backhand]

How is it a townslip?

This game explicitly does not have daytalk.

Ah, shit. I misread, mafia did have daytalk for 48 hours. So, take that one back.

It was sarcasm. It's null.

Agree now, but scumPaul would definitely know there wasn't daytalk (except there was at the time, oops)

Hiraki, a replacement comes in and votes for himself, its outrageous to ask for more?

[Backhand]

Do you have a way of reading him later in games?

[Backhand]

@Notsure:
Dude, I don't even particularly scumread you. I'm just trying to get a sense for what you're thinking beyond "EVERYONE WHO LOOKS SIDEWAYS AT ME IS BAD AT MAFIA"

Also, *ahem* "judges players by motivation and intent, as an indicator of scum-hunting and Town doubt. Behavior is secondary."

And you just voted me for not seeming fully engaged? Is that behavior or motivation?

...you know, I hadn't noticed this before. Now, I can understand wanting a policy lynch on someone, but... two in a row? That

does

seem a tad excessive.

If I'm down for one, I don't know why it would be weird to be down for another. But mostly I just wanted to get a better sense of what they are actually thinking from both of them, which mcm has given (think he's getting better at the gimmick) and notmafia obviously has not.

FYI, I checked--you have go back 13 mini normal games to find one where scum was lynched Day 1. So town using their scumhunting instincts instead of policy isn't some huge upgrade.

Ugh, while I was typing:

Wanted to try again; had a bad experience before with people getting mad at each other and stuff. Just want to play without too much of that. We'll see what happens I guess.

You're really making this a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Backhand]

First, I don't care if you scumread me, but why you scumread me
Second,
No, you took that one sentence out of a paragraph and isolated it from its context. You aren't reading intent and motivation and that's enough for me to vote you. Feel free to make this seem like something else or act like an asshole to downplay it, fine, but I still see what I see.

Can we actually get back to playing now?

I asked you a question to try to discern your intent and motivation, because its really hard to do when you're just lashing out at everyone who doesn't automatically assume that you're town. You never answered, by the way. How should town scumhunt?

[Backhand]

I wasn't trying to be an asshole, but now I will be for a second:

Shocking

that the guy who uses snowflake as a slam is the first to bail on the game.

[Backhand]

I wonder if this statistic holds over a larger sample? If so, then it might well turn out that we have better odds of hitting scum on a random policy lynch than on a well-thought-out trying-to-hit-scum lynch.

I got to 50 games before I got bored--town lynch 39/50 (and 1 no lynch). Which is better than 0/13 obviously, but not great. I think the danger with policy lynches is that they can happen with a day of low content, but that's not the case here. 10 out of 13 slots have been pretty well engaged.

FWIW, I also would guess that the incidence of mafia claiming town PR is closer to 1/3 than 1/2, but that's definitely a part of site meta I am not very up on.

[Backhand]

thought about it. not sure slot is close to lock town now I think
that's a gross replace, yes, but scum doing that there would be 1000 times more stink

1000 times more stink. . . is more likely? Less likely?

[Backhand]

Wow - didn't see the Accountant replace coming until I did my research. Yikes.

Yikes is right.

@grendel: I dunno, the Paul thing wasn't contrived. Also, I could definitely be doing a better job of blending in and not taking a position if that were my intention.

Interested to see what some new eyes see.

[Backhand]

I am invoking my platinum mafiascum membership credibility license to declare that Nero is town.
Sorry to the scum who this inconveniences.
<3

Sure, but that's much less interesting than this blue-green thing. Its definitely blue.

[Backhand]

Maybe! What did you have against klicks play?

[Backhand]

At least everyone mostly townreads you for it

[Backhand]

Speaking of,

Mod

has Not_Mafia been prodded yet? This hill is kind of fun but I'd rather get NM replaced than die on it.

[Backhand]

There are 17 new pages since I last read stuff in this game and I kind of hate all of you for that. I'm going to post in a few hours after pretending to have read everything

There are 17 new pages since I last read stuff in this game and I kind of hate all of you for that. I'm going to post in a few hours after pretending to have read everything

Say something.

What the actual flowery fluffernutter did you want me to say when I had read none of the game since my last post with content? What was your thought process when making this post?

To be fair, this really should be directed at Not Mafia, who is now at 28 pages without a single useful word but its fine because the Policy Lynch Police will go after us if we dare get rid of him over it.

[Backhand]

Yeah, I can see that. Its still absurd that we aren't just going to kill Not_Mafia, but if we get close to deadline, that would be a fine choice.

[Backhand]

Also jesus, one of mutton or gamma please switch your avatar.

P-Edit: Why are you wanting to kill Not_Mafia?
Explain it to me like I'm stupid.

Well, if you give me that kind of opportunity

Towns actually suck at lynching scum Day 1. Always have, always will (because they don't know anything and the scum do). We have a player who has not said a single useful word. Doesn't mean he's scum, but as town we're probably going to fuck this one up anyway. If he keeps not saying anything, he's not getting nightkilled. Would you rather still have a player we have no way of getting info from lingering on Day 3, or endgame?

Plus the principle of it. I want to keep playing with people who are playing the game.

[Backhand]

I did actually check. Town has lynched scum 11 out of the last 50 games. That's more of a persuade-cc argument, but still.

[Backhand]

*11 out of the last 50 mini normals

[Backhand]

I did actually check. Town has lynched scum 11 out of the last 50 games. That's more of a persuade-cc argument, but still.

Just to split hairs here - you said earlier that the last 50 games had 39 Town-lynches and one no-lynch, which would mean only 10 scum-lynches.

Which is close enough to the theoretical random-lynch value that I honestly don't know, on only a 50-game sample, whether a random first-day lynch is better or worse than a non-random one. But either way, it's pretty close.

You would call that out--to be precise, the last 51 games had 39 town lynches, 11 scum lynches, and a no-lynch I threw out. And this is a random-in-outcome but useful in the long term move, not randomness for its own sake.

[Backhand]

VOTE: bigbenwd

I've read up and this guy is serious obvscum

tbh I was looking forward to playing with ben. I like playing with older players, even if they're probably out of practice.

I guess he peeked at the current site meta and got frightened off?

@Gamma

Never played with Not_mafia, I think I read some games he was in tho, is a big trolly poster?

How dare you

Don't hold your breath

Whoah I need to read

There are 17 new pages since I last read stuff in this game and I kind of hate all of you for that. I'm going to post in a few hours after pretending to have read everything

I'm giving up on you

Dayvig:SlingshotWaffles

Reminder.

[Backhand]

Alright, we gotta do something. Not_mafia's one game-relevant sentence does not move me off of thinking he's the best choice. Of the other people under real discussion, gamma would be my next choice. I do not think NTRP or PP are scum. If there's time for a flashwagon on nero I'd join, accountant's play slightly pinged me and nero hasn't done anything except park on one of the easy lynches (PP).

[Backhand]

nero hasn't done anything except park on one of the easy lynches (PP).

I'd argue that the guy you want lynched is an easier lynch so project much? But EZ lynch=//=town so...Also I'm not even voting PP. Like if you are gonna shade thrown you should read up.

I would not actually describe NM as an easy lynch, given how many people immediately said "this is just how he plays, policy lynches are bad and never happen" I even got some votes for pursuing it. I did miss that you had switched to slingshot though, apologies.

[Backhand]

Yeah. . . maybe. Could also be rid of him because *another* replacement cannot be good for the game, its already hard enough to remember who replaced who.

[Backhand]

@NTRP that's a PL I'm not supporting because that's a PL people try to use against me.

Plus I don't really like PLs.

Waffles, when people suggested that against you were you playing like NM?

[Backhand]

Guess I can't speak to that. I don't think you've played this game in any way that deserves a policy removal, but NM definitely has. Again, do you want to have to roll the dice on him Day 3 or 4, or would you rather be done with it now?

[Backhand]

Its gonna get more cringe before it. . . ends abruptly.

[Backhand]

My thoughts on the current top wagons:

Not_Mafia is a policy lynch. He's been pretty near silent. Then he put on two votes, claimed a gut scumread on Cheet and gave no explanation of the Gamma vote, and said Nero was town. That's a pretty pathetically minimal contribution to the state of the game, especially since having caught up, I suspect that the reason behind the Gamma vote was self-preservation (which is NAI because all roles benefit from self-preservation).

Gamma actually looks like scum for a variety of reasons, which I have gone over before.

So, I suspect that Not_Mafia is scum's mislynch for today. It's an easy wagon to push, since it's a policy lynch for a genuinely super-quiet player. It's also a wagon that does not reflect badly on scum-on-the-wagon if the slot flips Town. Therefore, I think that the only reason Not_Mafia's wagon has progressed so far, is that there is scum on it; if Not_Mafia is lynched today and flips Town, then I would recommend taking a very close look at everyone on that wagon tomorrow.

Currently, my vote is staying on Gamma/kraska77.

Backhand, Cheetory6, DeathRowKitty, NotTheRealPaul, PenguinPower

The list of people on NM currently--CCC, if you believe Not_Mafia to be scum's mislynch, shouldn't your scumreads be within this five?

[Backhand]

? Where did he scumread me or Cheet?

[Backhand]

? Where did he scumread me or Cheet?

I'm saying mine.

Because I agree with him that Gamma should be lynched and that NM is the easy mislynch.

Ah, gotcha--you think its more likely that gamma/kraska is scum, or that people in that three are scum?

People need to learn not to join more games than they can handle. It's a burden to players and mods. Just saying.

Seconded

It rly pisses me off that players replace out whilly nilly here.

Its a huge deservice to the mod and the rest of the roster, and generally makes the game harder for me to read.

Thirded--every time I say something about the game I have to recheck who replaced who.

[Backhand]

What do you think about nero, grendel?

[Backhand]

Guess I can't speak to that. I don't think you've played this game in any way that deserves a policy removal, but NM definitely has. Again, do you want to have to roll the dice on him Day 3 or 4, or would you rather be done with it now?

P-Edit: Starting to see why you'd be PL'd now. 964 and 967 are both all about scumreading you.

[Backhand]

What do you think about nero, grendel?

Do you have something to say?

Not yet--you always this defensive?

But what about those posts do I respond to?

I would think if the person who is your alleged top scumread made two posts about you, you'd have something to say about it. I don't think kraska's attack is particularly strong, but your position on the slot is starting to feel pretty artificial.

[Backhand]

What is NAI and why?

[Backhand]

What is NAI and why?

I should say which--not what the abbreviation stands for

[Backhand]

Does kraska's posting change your view on what was the GE slot? If not, why?

Her posting today has pretty much removed my interest in that lynch, is part of why I ask.

[Backhand]

Her posting today has pretty much removed my interest in that lynch,

Why?

The biggest problem with gamma is that he had kind of dropped out of the game--Kraska is doing the opposite. I don't think she's right necessarily (although waffles feels less town than notsure did), but she's given reasons for her positions and seems genuine.

Also this is WIFOM, but ScumReplacementKraska also parks on NotMafia, I think, unless they're both scum which is improbable.

Does kraska's posting change your view on what was the GE slot?

If not, why?

Her posting today has pretty much removed my interest in that lynch, is part of why I ask.

[Backhand]

Eh.
VOTE: CCC
I really don't like this post:

My thoughts on the current top wagons:

Not_Mafia is a policy lynch. He's been pretty near silent. Then he put on two votes, claimed a gut scumread on Cheet and gave no explanation of the Gamma vote, and said Nero was town. That's a pretty pathetically minimal contribution to the state of the game, especially since having caught up, I suspect that the reason behind the Gamma vote was self-preservation (which is NAI because all roles benefit from self-preservation).

Gamma actually looks like scum for a variety of reasons, which I have gone over before.

So, I suspect that Not_Mafia is scum's mislynch for today. It's an easy wagon to push, since it's a policy lynch for a genuinely super-quiet player. It's also a wagon that does not reflect badly on scum-on-the-wagon if the slot flips Town. Therefore, I think that the only reason Not_Mafia's wagon has progressed so far, is that there is scum on it; if Not_Mafia is lynched today and flips Town, then I would recommend taking a very close look at everyone on that wagon tomorrow.

Currently, my vote is staying on Gamma/kraska77.

There's a lot that feels off with this post.
Especially the "tomorrow I will pick at the wagon". Seems a lot more like setup for tomorrow than a genuine interest in parsing the wagon itself, especially since there's nothing specific being unpacked here.
Also don't like the declaration of N_M being a policy lynch. The confidence there feels a little like it's coming from a place of too much information.

I also don't like this post. Maybe because I never saw the gamma wagon as being that strong, but if you really think that mafia are on the NM lynch, why not attack one of them instead of parking on gammakraska? I had been townreading him most of the game, though.

[Backhand]

What's up, mcm?

Can you put this one in a haiku?

[Backhand]

The majority of his reads remain null throughout D1.

Does him saying with like.. a really high level of confidence that N_M is a policy lynch that scum is pushing not give you bad feels here?

I'll look at CCC when I come back after lunch.

Was he on the NM wagon when he said that?

Nah, he was on Gammakraska. MCM, why are you scumreading me now?

[Backhand]

I see what you're saying (not so much the last part, but whatever there are other reasons she might or might not its not important)--but since I've been townreading kraska, it makes it hard to follow the rest of it.

Not_mafia remains incredibly frustrating/useless, still my top choice. Also I have everyone on the wagon except PP on the town side, so I'm not really buying the "scum are piling onto the wagon" argument

Would be OK with a PP or nero wagon. Not hopping on CCC or kraska.

[Backhand]

I literally am voting CCC, I didn't reduce my read on him

I went back and checked - you're scumreading me because I thought Gamma had copied my readslist?

I can show proof, in this thread, that my readslist was put out

days

in advance of Gamma's. And I can show Gamma being unable to explain one of my weaker reads. What more do you need?

@Kraska Prob waffles

That's not going anywhere though. And CCC is fine with me too.

VOTE: CCC

...and here's the last person I scumread, jumping on my wagon.

I'm not surprised, but I'm pointing this out for the benefit of future days in case I get lynched.

I hear you that all of your scumreads are jumping on your wagon, that would make anyone paranoid, but usually an entire scumgroup doesn't move in unison like that. A lot of your reads and comments seem based on a really simple model of mafia behavior, like very early in the game you called out Klick for being scummy for calling for a quicklynch--even if you take that seriously. . . its not very indicative because scum players don't actually play that simply.

IDK.
ccc thinking that someone copying his readlist is a thing that scum would actually do looks like crazy town logic and I'm scared that Grendel feels like CCC is just lynchbait here.

Yes, this exactly. VOTE: penguinpower

Def better than ccc or kraska.

[Backhand]

Fair enough, but let me point out again that "frustrating" and "useless" are not necessarily scummy behaviours.

Yeah, but fuck it I'm on a one-man campaign to bring back the lurker lynch.

[Backhand]

How about pp as an alternative?

[Backhand]

VOTE: Nero Cain

Yeah, but he's been worse since then. I really don't think kraska is scum, this feels exactly right to me.

Like, I could be wrong, but kraska is just oozing genuine feeling frustration at being wagoned in a way that doesn't feel scummy to me and I'm honestly not confident that Gamma didn't just replace out because he genuinely wasn't getting into the game [which I feel is probably more just a common symptom of normal games, rather than anything AI].

[Backhand]

I'd happily switch back to PP over nero, but that didn't seem to have much traction.

Nero, maybe this is just your game, but you don't really reply in a way that screams "engage with me" so much as "if you vote for me I am going to yell at you until you stop." Saying that you have only come in to defend yourself is not totally fair, but its not made up either.

Mostly I townread kraska and cheet pretty strongly, and I've vacillated on CCC but am coming back around to town on him. I'll bounce to whatever deadline wagon isn't in that group.

[Backhand]

Mostly I townread kraska

why?

Her posting today has pretty much removed my interest in that lynch,

Why?

The biggest problem with gamma is that he had kind of dropped out of the game--Kraska is doing the opposite. I don't think she's right necessarily (although waffles feels less town than notsure did), but she's given reasons for her positions and seems genuine.

Also this is WIFOM, but ScumReplacementKraska also parks on NotMafia, I think, unless they're both scum which is improbable.

[Backhand]

All this meta bullcrap is annoying.

Agreed

I could lynch slingshot because I'm tired of his shitty pointless potshot playstyle?
(':

Agreed

[Backhand]

but she's given reasons for her positions and seems genuine.

Why does this apply to her and not me?

Genuine is a gut thing, but your targets have all felt easy and I thought you continuing to chase gamma post-replace because one time a year ago someone tactically replaced was not good, felt faked.

why do you ask questions? why do you feel? why do you think? how come this thing is this way? how come I do what whatn wherent how who am I?

Stealing an rb line, but I think Waffles might be an NPC.

[Backhand]

because one time a year ago someone tactically replaced was not good, felt faked.

like you do realize that I'm not using that as a reason for scumreading the slot. alot of ppl town read replace outs even though they are null.

No I don't realize that because that's the reason you used when you voted him.

Cheet, what changed your mind?

For pp/klick they've done a whole bunch of nothing.. The word active lurking comes to mind. Also 1048 is rolefishing and thats just yuck. The ONLY thing I like from PP is their vote on Kraska.

But this I agree with and I don't even like the vote on Kraska.

[Backhand]

VOTE: PenguinPower

[Backhand]

PP has 3 votes?

Why are we not lynching Kraska?

Because she's probably town.

[Backhand]

Eh, while I'm not opposed to the nero lynch, plenty of strong Day 1 reads evaporate over time, I don't think it *has* to be one of you.

[Backhand]

it doesnt make sense to me either tbh.

pedit: but pp is a consensus secondary scumread...this doesnt feel right

A consensus secondary scumread who has yet never really been wagoned--sometimes there's gold in that.

[Backhand]

Wait Waffles vote was a lynch if he wasn't already voting and Hiraki's counting was correct

I was already voting.

a Real Human Being™

Why do you do that?

a Real Human Being™

Why do you do that?

Because you post like a robot programmed to play mafia.

(CCC posts like a more advanced robot programmed to play Go, playing mafia in their free time)

[Backhand]

CCC, you're my new favorite.

MCM, hop on board the PP train!

It is a good train and seeing people's reactions to it is more informative than whichever or neither of kraska/nero is scum.

(It is a train not a wagon because this is a game from the future with robots)

[Backhand]

Waffles, why do you want PP not lynched so bad? They weren't in your townread list.

[Backhand]

Huh.

[Backhand]

Ha!

Is there a Scummy for "best-timed votecount?"

[Backhand]

Look, I'm not going anywhere until about fifteen minutes to deadline. I will hammer the kraska lynch or whoever else if that's what it comes to. We won't no-lynch today.

[Backhand]

Nah I checked with implosion, this was intended

Interesting.

This is just a check-in post, my other game is at deadline and the whole day needs a reread. Will try and find time for a big debrief by end of today.

[Backhand]

Why are Cheet and CCC town again?

Yeah, I lean town on both of them but am not sure they deserve to be crossed out. Looked back through, and I want to run up Not_Mafia again.

Vote Count 1.12

Not_Mafia (6): Not_Mafia, Backhand, Cheetory6, DeathRowKitty, NotTheRealPaul, PenguinPower
Gamma Emerald (2): CCC, MuttonChopMagic
Backhand (1): Grendel
CCC (1): Hiraki
Cheetory6 (1): SlingshotWaffles

Not Voting (2): Gamma Emerald, Nero Cain


With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Deadline is on Thursday, June 15th at 5:00 PM PST, in (expired on 2017-06-15 20:00:00).

Not_Mafia has been prodded.

A. Townreads and people who are now confirmed town were on this wagon.
B. A townwagon on Kraska popped up right after that. Nero was a big part of that and he would probably be my second choice.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Backhand]

Vote Count 2.1

Not Voting (6): CCC, DeathRowKitty, Grendel, Hiraki, Nero Cain, NotTheRealPaul

*crickets*

[Backhand]

Nero and waffles, where are you at on Not_Mafia? Do you consider "backup" to be a viable claim to keep alive?

[Backhand]

Vote Count 1.12

Not_Mafia (6): Not_Mafia, Backhand, Cheetory6, DeathRowKitty, NotTheRealPaul, PenguinPower
Gamma Emerald (2): CCC, MuttonChopMagic
Backhand (1): Grendel
CCC (1): Hiraki
Cheetory6 (1): SlingshotWaffles

Not Voting (2): Gamma Emerald, Nero Cain


With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Deadline is on Thursday, June 15th at 5:00 PM PST, in (expired on 2017-06-15 20:00:00).

Not_Mafia has been prodded.

A. Townreads and people who are now confirmed town were on this wagon.
B. A townwagon on Kraska popped up right after that. Nero was a big part of that and he would probably be my second choice.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Backhand]

A) I feel this doesn't mean much because he was mainly a PL/voting him for things he always does.
B) That's because that's when Gamma requested to replace out.

So where are you on NM? U didnt answer...

I thought it was very clear--even though lazy scum most likely did not hop on this easy/NAI/PL/whatever wagon (DRK would be the most suspicious), and when things got hot there was a counterwagon on a now confirmed townie, there's still nothing to indicate NM's alignment.

So says waffles.

[Backhand]

In light of recent discussion of site meta, I'm going to try to post less often and more completely. So, here goes:

Spoiler:

Okay, so, day before yesterday I voted slingshotWaffles because he seemed to be rolefishing, with Nero as my second-top scumread because practically confTown Kraska is scumreading him.

Today, I find Grendel trying a bit of rolefishing of his own, oh,

and

Kraska is also scumreading Grendel. So, he's kind of hit both the reasons for my biggest current scumreads at once.

VOTE: Grendel

I didn't take it that way, CCC. I think grendel was just trying to get DRK to contribute more, which is something that we need. Like you have to believe that grendel believes that DRK actually has some magic ability to detect town power roles to really scumread over that.

Spoiler:

Nero and waffles, where are you at on Not_Mafia? Do you consider "backup" to be a viable claim to keep alive?

NM is null scum. Firstly, NM is always going to play like this or atleast that's the gist I got. I'm not really super familiar with him. When I replaced in and he was the leading wagon like it felt kinda safe and lazy. I could have easily wagoned him without drawing much attention and him tunneling me despite that kinda gives me an "I don't care who is lynched" vibe. I think that theoretically scum could claim backup and it would be a relatively safe claim and its something that could maybe work itself out down the line. Even if he is scum there's still two others.

I agree that the NM wagon could have been safe and lazy. However, it seems indicative to me that lazy scum do not appear to have jumped on. And given the (bad, in my opinion) wagon that got driven on kraska by you and waffles, there's some associative guilt there, I'm expecting there to be one scum between the two of you. Waffles fishing on NTRP was super gross but its really hard to tell what he's thinking.


Readlist summary right now:
Town to scum:
Kraska, MCM
NTRP
Cheetory, CCC
DRK, Hiraki, Grendel
Nero
Waffles, Not_Mafia

I think it would be cool if everyone picked a side between nero and waffles (not necessarily with a vote, we don't *have* to pick one of them), but a little commitment. DRK and Grendel in particular.

If I had to pick right now between those two, I'd pick waffles.

[Backhand]

I thought that bit was going to be much more annoying than it was.

Waffles, for town to win they have to be able to work together (hell, for mafia to win they usually have to be able to work together). If you're not concerned about "being readable" you're going to be worse at the game.

@Hiraki: Most everyone besides DRK and grendel have expressed opinions on waffles v. nero already, is why I wanted to know what they thought specifically.

[Backhand]

Sorry busy weekend--as I've said, I'm OK with a nero lynch but still think NM/Vedith makes more sense. GT coming in and doing a lot is good for my feelings about the DRK slot.

[Backhand]

Sorry busy weekend--as I've said, I'm OK with a nero lynch but still think NM/Vedith makes more sense. GT coming in and doing a lot is good for my feelings about the DRK slot.

What about NM/Vedith lynch makes it better than nero lynch? Is it in an information thing like CCC wants or do you think that slot is scummier

My thinking is similar to ccc's, with the added benefit of knowing I'm town so I was not scum on the wagon. I do think he highlighted the wrong votecounts though, I would look at:

Vote Count 1.12

Not_Mafia (6): Not_Mafia, Backhand, Cheetory6, DeathRowKitty, NotTheRealPaul, PenguinPower
Gamma Emerald (2): CCC, MuttonChopMagic
Backhand (1): Grendel
CCC (1): Hiraki
Cheetory6 (1): SlingshotWaffles

Not Voting (2): Gamma Emerald, Nero Cain


With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Deadline is on Thursday, June 15th at 5:00 PM PST, in (expired on 2017-06-15 20:00:00).

Not_Mafia has been prodded.

Vote Count 1.13

Not_Mafia (5): Backhand, Cheetory6, DeathRowKitty, NotTheRealPaul, PenguinPower
Gamma Emerald (4): CCC, MuttonChopMagic, SlingshotWaffles, Nero Cain
Cheetory6 (1): Not_Mafia
CCC (1): Hiraki
PenguinPower (1): Grendel

Not Voting (1): Gamma Emerald


With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Deadline is on Thursday, June 15th at 5:00 PM PST, in (expired on 2017-06-15 20:00:00).

Searching for a replacement for Gamma Emerald.

Again, Not_Mafia is actually in danger, and a bad wagon pops up on gamma. That is what makes me suspicious of the slot, and the fact that some people who are also scummy in waffles/nero did the driving makes me feel that much better about it.

[Backhand]

if scum had a completely null partner wouldnt they be fine bussing it since it's an infoless lynch that could be used to give them towncredit

or better yet do nothing about it and push other people as bussers

Possibly, sure. But I would argue that people were treating the slot as Town while saying it was null, and as scum I'd want to keep the person around for sure. Maybe they didn't *think* they were doing that, but none of our scumreads yesterday were very strong, in my opinion. The "null" slot should have received more consideration.

[Backhand]

@Grendel: This game *has* been super hard to get into, half the game has been replaced, and there was no flow. Still think it can be turned around though.

[Backhand]

rn my list looks like this i think

people im positive are town: giga, cheetory, ccc, nottherealpaul,
people im townreading but dont really have a good reason to: backhand
probably town:hiraki, grendel
unreadable: slingshot, nm/vedith
scum: nero

I basically agree with this with the caveat that I would be very surprised if nero AND slingshot are scum. And slingshot/vedith/nero are much more flat than nero having a particular read. Agree with GT that we can start moving toward being done with the day.

[Backhand]

Depends on your job--I pretty much

only

post at work.

I am willing to hammer nero, but am also happy to wait for vedith to provide some content.

[Backhand]

I thought vedith and nero (or waffles in fairness) were very plausible partners yesterday and from day 1, no reason to feel differently about that.

VOTE: Vedith

I *think* hiraki actually defended nero more than a buddy would have, although of course that's WIFOMy as fuck. Grendel makes more sense, and I guess CCC but I've been feeling pretty good about him. Probably not NTRP, the no-kill Day 1 makes him quite a bit more likely to be town imo.

[Backhand]

you hear that fucker backhand?

Rude! But OK.

UNVOTE: Vedith

[Backhand]

Why so confident on CCC?

[Backhand]

Sorry, that was directed at vedith. Its the one point where he didn't just match game consensus, so I'm curious what he thinks about it.

[Backhand]

also just fyi 2-shot loyal friendly neighbor seems really weird in this setup when there's other pr claims

we've had games that were just 3 masons from the start and no other prs

It's always possible that there are scum PRs to balance it out.

In fact, going back and checking the rules post:

1. Any mafia member who has a night action other than their nightkill may both use that action and kill on the same night.

This seems to imply that there

are

Mafia members with other roles. And how does a Godfather interact with the Loyal modifier? Would a Mafia Godfather still get the Friendly Neighbour message?

If a Godfather

does

still get the message, that could seriously mess with our situation here.

I agree--a friendly neighbor and a backup and a "not very informative" role (per NTRP) and presumably some kind of protective or possibly blocking role? It seems like a lot.

[Backhand]

no no no - im gonna be stubborn here

CCC votes Vedith and asks for explanation before voting - how does that get a pass?

I just glanced through ccc's posts and don't see what you're getting at, clarify?

[Backhand]

This is just so much certainty for something incorrect.

[Backhand]

In post 1246, Backhand wrote:
VOTE: Nero Cain

Yeah, but he's been worse since then. I really don't think kraska is scum, this feels exactly right to me.


In post 1248, implosion wrote:
kraska77 (5): CCC, SlingshotWaffles, Nero Cain, MuttonChopMagic, PenguinPower
Nero Cain (4): kraska77, Not_Mafia, Cheetory6, Backhand
CCC (2): Hiraki, NotTheRealPaul
Backhand (1): Grendel


Kraska was still the leading wagon, all 3 scum voting separately and Backhand already stated that he thinks Karska is a good lynch.

I'd like to take this up specifically--yeah, as soon as gamma got replaced and kraska came in I thought that kraska was town--so actually I was never OK with a

kraska

lynch. I'm not sure how this supports your argument at all.

The rest is all conclusions leading to explanations--"hiraki and backhand are scum and as such here's an explanation of what they're doing" Like your entire VCA could be applied to Grendel as well and that's if your "scum never vote together except for these specific times when I say they did vote together" narrative actually had legs.

And both are currently not voting me, because you know, that means they are in danger of being lynched tomorrow.
They need to lynch else where first, and save my lynch for a closer point to LyLo.

Anyone reading the game should know this is absolute garbage--I came in at the start of the day voting and pushing for you, the only reason I'm not voting is because you did your dog-and-pony show about everyone unvoting you. That'll change in a minute, but I'm going to write a countercase.

[Backhand]

Backhand, getting a sweat on?

Yeah, I have a pretty strong preference against someone who's scum or been a useless slot the whole game coming in and mislynching me.

[Backhand]

Vote Count 1.12

Not_Mafia (6): Not_Mafia, Backhand, Cheetory6, DeathRowKitty, NotTheRealPaul, PenguinPower
Gamma Emerald (2): CCC, MuttonChopMagic
Backhand (1): Grendel
CCC (1): Hiraki
Cheetory6 (1): SlingshotWaffles

Not Voting (2): Gamma Emerald, Nero Cain


With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Deadline is on Thursday, June 15th at 5:00 PM PST, in (expired on 2017-06-15 20:00:00).

Not_Mafia has been prodded.

Vote Count 1.13

Not_Mafia (5): Backhand, Cheetory6, DeathRowKitty, NotTheRealPaul, PenguinPower
Gamma Emerald (4): CCC, MuttonChopMagic, SlingshotWaffles,

Nero Cain

Cheetory6 (1): Not_Mafia
CCC (1): Hiraki
PenguinPower (1): Grendel

Not Voting (1): Gamma Emerald


With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.
Deadline is on Thursday, June 15th at 5:00 PM PST, in (expired on 2017-06-15 20:00:00).

This is still the key moment of the game--when Not_Mafia was under real heat, Nero jumped on a bad counterwagon. That is exactly the kind of play you would expect from a buddy trying to save a buddy. That's why I linked nm/vedith and nero to begin with, I'm sticking with it.

VOTE: Vedith

[Backhand]

I think the worst thing I saw in regards to Vediths slot was that point where Nero unvoted Not mafia D1 when NM started gaining steam.

but that's it?... everything else is null

I haven't read that wall Vedith posted yet ethier. All them post links inviting cross examination are intimidating.

That's a huge thing though! CCC's analysis of vedith's analysis is exactly right--you could use that kind of logic to indict almost any two players in the game, if you're willing to say "look, here's where they were bussing and here's where they weren't." There's no underlying predictive value there.

There's nothing wrong with a gutread, but at least admit that that's what you're doing instead of "I already decided they were scum look here's what they were doing because they were scum"

[Backhand]

I do think that its weird that Hiraki as scum would hard defend Nero into infinity. But I don't think its enough to dissuade me from wanting to flip Hiraki. At a certain point experienced scum realize that it still looks better to be wrong, but have conviction with their original stance then to try and back pedal into a bus.

Cuase I don't think being on Nero yesterday would have done anything for Hiraki's town cred. Why not dig in his heels at that point?

I don't think hiraki should be cleared by any means--its light evidence that I don't think a buddy would go so far to defend him in the first place. But its definitely not impossible.

Also, I'm definitely letting vedith's garbage case get to me and it makes me just want to string him up--but what should actually happen is letting our three confirmed townies tell us what to do.

So hurry up and tell us to lynch vedith, kraska/cheet

[Backhand]

UNVOTE: Vedith

Hiraki is up? Rolestopper definitely makes me feel better about our alleged town power compared to doc, since it has anti-synergy with the neighbor.

[Backhand]

I'm a Backup Vanilla Townsperson. Good thing for me waffles bit it so I gained his power.

[Backhand]

Unclear if the rolestopper will/should claim, but also kraska and cheet have not claimed.

[Backhand]

I can't properly analyze the setup without knowing if we have an actual rolestopper/doctor claim.
I don't know if it's worth the claim... probably not? something had to have stopped any n1 maim
unless scum decided a n1 no kill gambit was worth faking /backup rolestopper/... seems unlikely as fuck
so idk... idk.. I'm confused and stuck

Some claim thoughts:

Motion Detector and Rolestopper are not necessarily town roles.
Paranoia over no-kills should be kept in mind, but *probably* someone was saved by the Rolestopper N1 and so there's not much reason to reveal. Maybe if you targeted someone who wasn't already confirmed it would be? Interested in other's thoughts on that.

That said--a doctor or other protective role probably should claim though because it would indicate that vedith is lying.

NTRP, what were your results?

Also, VOTE: Hiraki

This is a good competing wagon and I support it.

[Backhand]

I'm not sure I agree but I see where you're coming from on the claim stuff--but

man

nero played you hard by self-hammering so I wouldn't be on the wagon.

I guess you can say I was pretending, but I was at no point unhappy with and multiple times actively supported a nero lynch.

[Backhand]

VOTE: Backhand

Its probably BackhandxHiraki (Like I've been saying the whole game)

Before the mass claim, I would have agreed that this was a strong possibility; but how do you fit this around Hiraki and NTRP's claims?

(Mind you, BackhandxGigabyte is not impossible).

Scum-Back-Up

Read my posts ccc

Right, the Motion Detector and the Backup Motion Detector could both be either alignment. For that matter, so could the Backup Rolestopper, so Vedith shouldn't be off the hook either (even if the claim was confirmed, which its not)

[Backhand]

*@Backhand*

Results:

N1 forgot to watch

N2: Watched MCM and saw motion

I dont see who made motion on what so pretty much I can only check BT claims and make sure they are in fact VT :/

Do you really see NTRP's buddies forgetting to tell him to use his powers?

He could forget to submit even if they did remind him, but I doubt NTRP is scum just based on his interactions with nero. Hiraki being a potential scum even if he's telling the truth about being a backup is more likely, as you said. I do think we've collectively kind of put NTRP in the Cleared pile and that shouldn't be the case.

A little surprising that our alleged rolestopper didn't target MCM Night 2, though.

[Backhand]

A little surprising that our alleged rolestopper didn't target MCM Night 2, though.

? Rolestopper isn't like j.k. mcm can still send actions, only actions on him are stopped

But then Paul would not have received a result.

[Backhand]

oh...
yeah
Good catch
Dhjdjdk
Should we lunch vedith then?

Maybe. I think there's no way that all four of Mystery Rolestopper/Backup Rolestopper/Motion Detector/Backup Motion Detector are town.

That would mean we have (Very Strong!) 2x Loyal Friendly Neighbor (if that's even what it actually is, y'know?) (Weak) Motion Detector, (Strong) Rolestopper, and two Backups? No way, plus we can be 95 percent sure scum don't even have a roleblocker, else they would have blocked one of NTRP/MCM last night.

[Backhand]

Hello! This thread escalated quickly.

MCM, why make a big post on CCC and not change your vote?

I actually had a scum read on Backhand before he ever posted in the game because I distinctly remember him being online the day that the game was lunched for at least four hours (that was the same amount of time I was online that night). He never showed up to the thread proper to post anything, and was not posting anywhere else on site. I even checked later. The 3rd of June was when this game started, Backhand has no posts in the other two games that were having game over discussion on the 3rd, but does have posts on the 2nd, and 4th. Backhands first post in this game was the 4th. Ei, Backhand was probably hiding out in the scum PT the day the game started.

This was the ethically gray thing I wasn't gonna mention. I decided I might as well if it lynches scum tomarrow.

Ugh, this sucks as a reason to get lynched for either alignment! Other interpretation, I was busy on a Saturday.

On 1905 to 1915, 1905 was my first forum game in a long time and I was less inclined to take strong positions like *players who are known to be fucking useless and skate on it* is unacceptable. I felt at the time that people were trying to get easy towncred by defending not Mafia, so I took a stronger position than I totally believe in, to see what happened.

[Backhand]

Gave it some more thought. I'm out on lynching Grendel. Like that's truly inspired framing or he believes what he's talking about even though he's wrong.

[Backhand]

Ah so many posts on a Saturday night! Catch-up wall time.

*@All*

I'd like to pick at the plausibility of a scum aligned role stopper. I think that NotPual successfully visiting Mutton N2 is a decent indication that the stopper is scum aligned. As a scum role stopper would target their own to achieve a tempory ascetic modification, preventing a buddy from getting guiltied. I do not see a likely world where town role stopper does not protect Mutton, an ousted investigative.

Therefore I'd be wary of any rolestopper claims from uncleared players in the future. I would like you all to agree and come back to this point when and if a role stopper claims. Consider it a solid for me.

Pre-edit

Why is 1917 so important?

But then you have to explain the No-Kill N1.

Hello! This thread escalated quickly.

MCM, why make a big post on CCC and not change your vote?

I actually had a scum read on Backhand before he ever posted in the game because I distinctly remember him being online the day that the game was lunched for at least four hours (that was the same amount of time I was online that night). He never showed up to the thread proper to post anything, and was not posting anywhere else on site. I even checked later. The 3rd of June was when this game started, Backhand has no posts in the other two games that were having game over discussion on the 3rd, but does have posts on the 2nd, and 4th. Backhands first post in this game was the 4th. Ei, Backhand was probably hiding out in the scum PT the day the game started.

This was the ethically gray thing I wasn't gonna mention. I decided I might as well if it lynches scum tomarrow.

Ugh, this sucks as a reason to get lynched for either alignment! Other interpretation, I was busy on a Saturday.

On 1905 to 1915, 1905 was my first forum game in a long time and I was less inclined to take strong positions like *players who are known to be fucking useless and skate on it* is unacceptable. I felt at the time that people were trying to get easy towncred by defending not Mafia, so I took a stronger position than I totally believe in, to see what happened.

That’s why I wasn’t going to bring it up. You could have been on, but afk, or browsing other web pages, or whatever. But it can’t be validated, alI I know is that you were on and never said anything. Just a simple “Hi” in the thread proper would have worked.
---
Except a lot of your pushes looked less like specifically scum reading players, and more like, “This player is playing badly guys lets lynch him.” Like what were you expecting them to flip scum or were your fear voting b/c you saw scum get away with it before? Why?

You had a reason to justify your actions based of a previous game. But having a reason doesn't mean that your have pure motives while doing it.

True, you don't know my motives--but since your read is at least partially based in me acting differently, I'm giving my explanation as to why. I would also say I don't really expect early Day 1 "this player is playing badly" pushes to result in immediate lynches, its more "this player is playing badly are they doing that because they're scum, or because they're bad" Then I stuck on Not_Mafia because he sure wasn't going to give any indication that he was anything other than bad and I did/do find it suspicious how many people were cool shrugging that off.

Right, the Motion Detector and the Backup Motion Detector could both be either alignment. For that matter, so could the Backup Rolestopper, so Vedith shouldn't be off the hook either (even if the claim was confirmed, which its not)

We

do

have that Night One No-Kill. Could be scum deliberately setting something up; could be evidence of some sort of protective Town role.

Yes--that's why I didn't include that the primary Rolestopper might be scum.

Results:

N1 forgot to watch

N2: Watched MCM and saw motion

I dont see who made motion on what so pretty much I can only check BT claims and make sure they are in fact VT :/

This is the centre of my current scumread on NTRP.

The claim of Motion Detector was clearly on the cards since the Day One "I'm a PR!" claim. Either he really is a town PR, or Scum used their first-48-hour scumtalk to carefully prepare fake claims. So, presumably, his investigative results were planned out in advance as well.

Now, Motion Detector is a weak role, but it's normally fairly easy to counterclaim. If he gives results, and claims no movement, then literally

any

Town PR could counterclaim with the reason of "but I visited him". Here, we have a pair of results that appear to be carefully planned to make a counterclaim impossible - "forgot to submit an action" is completely non-counterclaimable, and "saw the confirmed PR who requested doctor protection move" is, similarly, impossible to counterclaim.

But, in this case, there actually

is

a possible counterclaim. See, last night (the last time Scum talked) we didn't know yet about the Rolestopper. Most people seemed to think there might be a Doctor - I know I did. And the Doctor does not stop motion detectors. But the Rolestopper

does

.

MCM claimed a blown one-shot Loyal modifier. But he also (very strongly) requested Doctor support the following night. It looked obvious to me that his one-shot Loyal wasn't one-shot after all, and I can only assume that the Rolestopper saw the same - MCM's request was very strongly put. So, the Rolestopper would pretty much have to be on MCM. (This would also explain the apparent preponderance of Town power this game - I still think Scum has a roleblocker, who clashed with the rolestopper on MCM Night Two). With the Rolestopper on MCM, NTRP should not have gotten that motion result. (I'm thinking he stuck with the fakeclaim that had been planned in the Mafia chat the previous night, presumably by a more experienced player).

Hence, NTRP's motion detector results look completely fake.

That's the current centre of my NTRP case.

If this were to be the case, then the rolestopper really does need to claim. That would be a guilty result and possibly another innocent result from N1.

@Implosion

: Can scum have a backup of a town role?

By the normal game guidelines, yes.

answer my questions. play the game like you aren't the best player to ever touch it. of course you are, but humor me.
and yes, there's a precise time I become God. page 6 of day 5 I will solve the game. that's how mafia works. see?

I don't decide that I'm the best player in Mafia, that's my reads that decide that.
Again, they are my reads and Implosion told me nothing.
I doubt your ability to get anything right.

Yeah but you still have me as scum so, those reads aren't all that good.

[Backhand]

Paul check in this pool:
Grendle, ccc, vedith,

got it boss!

Hey, if hiraki does actually flip scum feel free to check me as well else we'll never hear the end of it from vedith.

[Backhand]

Seriously, y'all?

I'm going to do a three quote post of who is obviously the last scum.

But if the target wants to claim first that's cool.

[Backhand]

Oh wait Hiraki was rolecop so I'm an idiot. Its probably ccc.

[Backhand]

Oh, my mistake.

Ccc didn't act last night and no one died so he's cleared.

(I'm a little drunk and I've lost the bit, help)

[Backhand]

Oh, my mistake.

Ccc didn't act last night and no one died so he's cleared.

(I'm a little drunk and I've lost the bit, help)

he's not clear if there's no kill LMFAO

and i didnt receive anything, i would have outted as much from my first post.

Wait you're right he's not clear since he didn't act last night and no one died how could I make that mistake

[Backhand]

Fun theory. Guess we'll wait for that rolestopper claim on me then?

[Backhand]

MCM, how long do you want to give ccc to speak up?

[Backhand]

Nope. Keep patting your collective backs, though.

[Backhand]

CCC - Grendel - NTRP - Giga

Reconsidering Grendel v. CCC, idk. I've been coming from a place of not really trusting NTRP for a little while but I suppose they can't both be scum so CCC would have had to no-kill.

I probably need to more seriously reevaluate, I admittedly spent the Night not thinking through the rolecop and thinking Paul was dead to rights.

[Backhand]

Oh, he should still be on the table, but I'd have him least likely. I don't think Hiraki also fakeclaims backup after seeing NotMafia doing it. Plus the immediately coming in and killing him.

[Backhand]

If you were scum than you would have set up the drama, obviously. Maybe scum motion detector, maybe the whole thing is made up. But I have you third out of five, I'm not calling it likely.

[Backhand]

Alright, this is going to be quick and dirty because I'm in a training class today instead of just wasting time at my desk like usual.

Accountant was one of my first slight scum reads, he seemed to be going out of his way to discredit people--seems like in retrospect that might just be his personality. When nero came into the game, he also slightly rubbed me the wrong way but I was busy on my NotMafia hill. I was definitely willing to kill him Day 1, but that was as much about townreading kraska as scumreading him.

Barely remember hiraki from Day 1--he kind of did a weird "I see what you're doing backhand but I can't TR you for it." I assume he was talking about my kind of early-game questioning style?

Day 2: Pretty quickly had myself narrowed down to NotMafia (Vedith)/Nero/Waffles. Was fairly certain there was scum in one of Nero and Waffles but not sure who. Hiraki went nuts defending nero, but I still had him as fairly null (to leaning scum because everyone who wasn't confirmed had to be leaning scum.)

Day 3: Started off thinking vedith was more likely than grendel who was more likely hiraki, eventually came around on grendel though. I know once you are repeatedly yelled at about being scumbuddies anything you do is WIFOM, but seriously I voted hiraki when grendel was at L-2.

Anything else specifically you want to ask about? I'll try to not get yelled at by my trainer.

[Backhand]

So, should I be speaking about whether or not I got a Loyalty message from MCM last night?

Sure, but we kind of already know--unless you're calling Paul a liar?

[Backhand]

Oh shit I'm at L-1, I thought I still had two. OK, I'm not going to wait any longer, sorry mcm but it doesn't seem like anyone is going to be baited.

GUYS I HAVE AN IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT MCM IS TOWN THE MOD TOLD ME

[Backhand]

I hope I interpreted what you wanted correctly? I assumed when you left me out of your pool you wanted me to sit on it.

[Backhand]

VOTE: CCC

Backhand still shouldn't be confirmed town because if he's scum and no one else claimed it, of course he's going to assume it was him.
We'll see though as Grendel isn't scum, Gigga isn't scum.

So lynch CCC
Motion me
If kill it clears me
If no kill, lynch me
Motion Backhand
If no kill
Lynch Backhand

GG

Except mutton confirmed that he did target me? Like I know you yelled I was scum a lot and it was inexplicably compelling... But I'm not, and it would be real dumb to lynch me before Grendel or Giga or Paul. (And on Paul, a reminder: that Hiraki was a rolecop does not confirm Paul as town)

VOTE: ccc

I think scum CCC is smart enough to realize that his only chance is to try and get to be confirmed town and no-kill

[Backhand]

I still don't think Paul should technically be cleared, so we need one more no-kill or one more mcm confirm or a motion detector catch or not missing on four lynches on a row to truly truly seal it up... but we're probably good. CCC's absence isn't a great sign and remember how long he's been pushing "one of Vedith or Backhand must be scum?"

[Backhand]

Yay! Obviously a lot of things broke right but this was still a great performance by town.

[Backhand]

Yay! Obviously a lot of things broke right but this was still a great performance by town.

Forgive me Backhand!

I was wrroouungg!!!

LOL, that's OK