Mini Normal 1929 - Game Over

[Io]

I don't think I've seen a game with a day pattern quite like this. Kinda weird.

[Io]

VOTE: Steel

[Io]

@MM3 it is possible to know what we truly deserve.
For example, I deserve praise for finding and voting scum first thing day 1.

[Io]

@MM3 it is possible to know what we truly deserve.
For example, I deserve praise for finding and voting scum first thing day 1.

Well done.. Nice Job..

Good for you.

I'm detecting a mild case of sarcasm in this post.

Doesn't mater I choose to be ignorant and humbly accept the praise.

[Io]

So what happens if you guys draw?

[Io]

Last time I saw two players play connect four in a game, one of them was scum. Law of small numbers anybody?

Wait that's actually a thing people do?

[Io]

How is all this random talk relevant to the game?

Small talk is how most games start, so I guess technically it's relevant.

[Io]

res

VOTE: Io

Take that!
I've now invalidated whatever this vote count is going to be.

You don't understand how VCs work, do ya? They're only valid to that post and no further.
~Ircher

[Io]

res

VOTE: Io

Take that!
I've now invalidated whatever this vote count is going to be.

VOTE: io

Self voting is bad

I'll vote whoever I want to vote.
Maybe I didn't want to live.

[Io]

Wait there's not even anyone named Chilly here.

[Io]

Oh, I clicked submit too fast.
I'm dumb.

[Io]

UNVOTE:

I remember playing with Io. She will give long winding explanations about game mechanics and why and who is scum. I believe (but not sure) that she is logical, terse and concise when town.

Well thank you for calling me logical, but I don't really know if I would fall myself concise, I will make large posts if I need to get a point across.
Also I think the game mechanic talk was unique to that game if I recall because people weren't quite understanding them.

Frankly, I'm not really sure what the point in going over how people typically play helps. Like for example, I try to keep consistent play across whatever alignment I am and I'm pretty sure most people do that as to avoid scum slipping every time they are scum due to their meta.
Plus, the rules forbid Trust Tells and going over people's meta as town vs scum seems to be encroaching on breaking that rule.
Reguardless I've only played a full game with Alban, and maybe LUV and I am Innocent but I don't remember those games. Alban I remember does this kind of thing in all games if not most that I've played with him where he wants to talk about people's behavior.

[Io]

I'm not against a Mario lynch, because normally one of us are scum.

Normally? But you just said this was your first game.
Something doesn't quite add up here.

[Io]

VOTE: I Am Innocent

I was holding off on this vote for a bit because I wanted to watch him, but he hasn't been here in I think it's 49 hours or so. His last post was noon Friday.
106 and 117 pinged me as being off. Like he was oddly focused on the Connect 4 thing which I thought really nothing of which felt slightly off to me, but his post 106 is what really pinged me as he seemed to be possibly setting up for a lynch both of them and 1 of them will be scum which could would end up being a double mislynch if he was scum, and generally I find that kind of talk about someone possibly being scum without really making an accusation to come moreso from scum.

Really this is more a FoS than a push to lynch.
I can't quite tell right now if he's scum making a joke to test the waters of a potential lynch of the two of them or town just messing around and being very into a game of connect 4.

[Io]

The thing about Steel is that voting for a no lynch at this point in time isn't something scum would do...It also isn't something town would do either.
It's just something no one would ever do regardless of alignment. It's a completely meaningless vote because he knows that, no matter what he or other people are, no one will follow his vote because no one is just going to end day 1 that early.
It's more likely than not just a joke vote because no one would be seriously considering a no lynch 4 days into day 1.

[Io]

That self meta tho

You know, while I don't really like it when people self meta what's the point of this?
I don't really see it as a scum tell which is what I think you are implying because I know there are people out their who genuinely believe that giving self meta can clear them as town.

[Io]

Well I guess to further elaborate I just think those are NAI things.
At least the case on Steel is, Alban's is mostly NAI but I would agree that self meta is done slightly more often by scum like maybe a 4:6 T:S usage of self meta based on anecdotal evidence.

[Io]

That self meta tho

You know, while I don't really like it when people self meta what's the point of this?
I don't really see it as a scum tell which is what I think you are implying because I know there are people out their who genuinely believe that giving self meta can clear them as town.

I'd vote him if I thought it was a that dire of a scumtell
I'm just stating the obvious

Fair enough.

[Io]

Alban's is mostly NAI but I would agree that self meta is done slightly more often by scum like maybe a 4:6 T:S usage of self meta based on anecdotal evidence.

That's an interesting observation. Why is scum (slightly) more invested in self-meta? Will they do that even in a game where a substantial number has played with them before? For example, I have played with at least 3 out of 10 players here.

Just simply because of the fact self meta is basically saying "i can't be scum because I do X as scum or I do Y at town and I'm clearly not doing X or I'm clearly doing Y."
It's a rather easy defense to make, and while I don't think it's very solid at all to use self meta or meta in general to town or scum read it seems like scum have more to benefit from trying to use their own meta to appear town.

I have some townreads at least.

VOTE: Lil uzi vert

This is fluffing hard.

LUV is a fluffer though.
From my experience with him he's basically a cloud with how much he fluffs.

[Io]

Alban's is mostly NAI but I would agree that self meta is done slightly more often by scum like maybe a 4:6 T:S usage of self meta based on anecdotal evidence.

That's an interesting observation. Why is scum (slightly) more invested in self-meta? Will they do that even in a game where a substantial number has played with them before? For example, I have played with at least 3 out of 10 players here.

Just simply because of the fact self meta is basically saying "i can't be scum because I do X as scum or I do Y at town and I'm clearly not doing X or I'm clearly doing Y."
It's a rather easy defense to make, and while I don't think it's very solid at all to use self meta or meta in general to town or scum read it seems like scum have more to benefit from trying to use their own meta to appear town.

Slight correction because looking over that post it may be a little confusing.
Basically self meta is somewhat helpful for scum due to the fact they can just lay it down at the beginning of the game saying something along the lines of "as town I do X and as scum I do Y."
Then instead of using it as a direct defense as for why they are town and not scum they will just let their actions reflect their self meta they gave.

What I'm trying to get at is that it is pretty easy to manipulate self meta in favor of a scum. For town it doesn't do a whole lot to give self meta either so I'm pretty sure it's just more likely to be scum using self meta than town because of the fact it doesn't help town a lot and helps scum a little.

[Io]

Io, I can't look you in eyes anymore.

What have I done to make you so ashamed of me Senpai?

[Io]

I panicked slightly seeing the 3 pages thinking I missed something big, but no it was just a rather pointless back and forth.

Also

Desperado: Carcalilly

You can't get me if I get you first!

Doesn't that just force a 1v1 we can only lynch one of you?

I'm liking Steel as town with the recent posts of him though, wasn't quite sure at first but I feel he is putting in effort to look into people.
Same goes for Carca. They've been consistent with the MM4 push and are making a case against them. Which is more than I can say for MM4 who I feel is just lacking especially after I reviewed Carca's reasoning for leaning scum on him.
VOTE: MM4

Also because I noticed Steel brought it up again and Carca had mentioned it back in post 156 this is an 11 player game and not 13. 13 I've seen with 3 to 4 scum but as far as I can tell from looking over the archived normal games I have not seen an 11 player game with 3 scum like Steel pointed out it's always 2 scum.

[Io]

I realized I was thinking of Gladiator sorry.

I know it's not a direct if they are they must be town, but scum tend to be more inconsistent and contradict themselves.
On top of that town are the ones who want to be moving the game forward where as scum benefit from the game stalling. Carca is being both consistent and making an effort to push the game forward which is why I am fine with giving them a town read for now.

[Io]

Plus like I was saying, I'm not really fond of you right now, MM4, and I'm scum leaning towards you. And a slightly stronger lean at that.
It's quite late in teh game to be spouting the amount of memes you are and the quotes Carca used to explain their scum lean on you show that you have been rather dodgy in trying to avoid accusations.
That is a tell to me you'd rather avoid conflict right now and try to brush off the accusation as just a joke or even potentially if you had malicious intent that Carca is scum for the accusation when you've not really made a case to disprove her accusation or motion to defend yourself.

[Io]

as scum I love consistency
It's like easy townread bait for just beating the same drum

No, not that kind of consistency. I mean not contradicting, backpedaling, or otherwise try to fit evidence into an accusation instead of building an accusation on evidence.

[Io]

I guess consistency isn't the right word for that, but I got nothing better to think to call that.

[Io]

Not exactly what I'm trying to get at with what I'm saying. That's mostly tunneling what you're saying.
Like I said the difference between town and scum consistency versus tunneling is using evidence to build an accusation versus trying to fit evidence into an already established evidence weather or not it fits.

[Io]

Also this whole interaction has basically only proven this.

Plus like I was saying, I'm not really fond of you right now, MM4, and I'm scum leaning towards you. And a slightly stronger lean at that.
It's quite late in teh game to be spouting the amount of memes you are and the quotes Carca used to explain their scum lean on you show that you have been rather dodgy in trying to avoid accusations.
That is a tell to me you'd rather avoid conflict right now and try to brush off the accusation as just a joke or even potentially if you had malicious intent that Carca is scum for the accusation when you've not really made a case to disprove her accusation or motion to defend yourself.

You're just talking about my town read on Carca and not about the scum lean either of us had on you.

[Io]

The second quote showed in the following quotes that you were ignoring the accusation which to me just looked like you were trying to avoid it or pretend it didn't exist.
You also cannot ever claim misinterpretation without giving the intent of the post. That's just basic common sense because if you don't she's the only one who's given an inturprutation as that means her's is the correct one until you explain the intent/meaning of the post or another person inturpruts it differently.
The 4th one was also not what you said it was, she did in the next post, but teh quote was 246 which looks to be that you've not put any effort into the game so far and aren't trying to make reads if you're null reading everyone 12 pages into the game. Combined with the fluff that is what makes me thing you are scum because it looks like you're just trying to detract and stall the game.

[Io]

the fact that he's painting iai as scum for basically no fucking reason
he's stretching rl shit and accusing iai of using it without base and i dont think that comes from a genuine town mindset

So I agree with this, sort of.

First off:
UNVOTE:
Because I liked your responses to me and Cerca. They weren't overly defensive and felt genuine. So that's at least enough for me to lower my suspicions on you for now.

Second, yeah I agree that 392 is a really bad reason to vote someone, and the fact he's said in 417 he stands by that reasoning for IAI being scum sounds to me like he realized it was a bad push and doesn't want to admit it.

The only problem is I'm still slightly scum reading IAI and I'm not going to give him a pass to relieve my suspicious because he got angry and rage quit. Sorry, but rage quitting a game is not a town tell.
It is looking like a TvS though. At least one of them being scum. I think it's a little less likely that Scorpious is trying to bus IAI because usually they are just sheeps and Scorpious made an entirely separate point on IAI than the ones others were making.
Either way, I'm more inclined to vote IAI as of right now than Scorious, but I'm not going to do so until IAI get's a replacement and they start doing things.

[Io]

Wait vedith do you townread alban chilly and carca or are you serious with your claim?

...
In what universe would that role be normal?

[Io]

Wait vedith do you townread alban chilly and carca or are you serious with your claim?

...
In what universe would that role be normal?

You think I'm lying?

I will vig myself tonight if you aren't.
Like that is actually a broken role with how strong it is in an 11 player game. You could day 1 clear a 3rd the list.

[Io]

So fake claiming does not equal scum.
Especially when it's so obviously fake like that. It can only be a joke and there's no reason to even take it seriously.

[Io]

Like you can take BP as a good example for town fake claiming.
BP's from what I've seen often claim Vigilante or Cop or something strong to get night killed.

[Io]

But it is a little ridiculous that Verdith is still trying to insist he's not joking.

[Io]

Either way there is no reason to vote him for an obvious fake claim.

[Io]

Don't be offended.
When I read Io's posts, I picturise a master manipulator who is taking the game slowly and steadily to her desired destination.
Why do i think so? I don't have solid reasons. Mere impressions.

No I'm not offended, little stereotypical evil mastermind but still.
I think it's a little ridiculous level of paranoia, but not really like I have anything to comment on about it because it's just a feeling.

[Io]

So fake claiming does not equal scum.
Especially when it's so obviously fake like that. It can only be a joke and there's no reason to even take it seriously.

Joke or test.

I think joke.
Reaction tests are typically not so blatant.

[Io]

Why do things in this game only happen when I'm eating or asleep?
Anyways I caught up and took a look into the case Llama made on Carca.

Here's my thoughts on it:
I'll start by saying I honestly don't think the case of Carca being scum is that strong unless Verdith is also scum.
567 - I don't really see the passiveness in their reads. I noticed their town reads are shallow though just being along the lines of "obvitown" or "this is town" with a quote. I think their scum read on MM4 in particular was anything but passive because that was a hard push early on when others were not on board with scum reading MM4 which is the opposite of passive. I also looked at a side by side comparison ISO between Verdith and Carca and I didn't really see them attacking MM4, so if you could point out the quote that would be great.
590 - I also noticed the case against Carca as a stand alone scum here isn't very strong either as frankly her not voting MM4 can easily be chalked up to being flustered which I don't see as a tell for either town or scum. It's just really not a solid case to say that she is scum for not voting MM4 when making a push on him.

That being said I do think the CarcaXVerdith scum team is pretty strong actually, as they've been rather buddy like this game it seems.
A side by sided ISO look of the two shows a few thins.
First Carca RVS's Verdith which I believe scum tend to do that as an early game distancing. And it's quite funny to vote your partner because you know it's right and the town would never know until they actually got lynched.
Second Verdith as early as 31 said Carca was town "for once" which while a clear joke that Carca is always scum when they play with Verdith doesn't feel right when they continued to maintain that town read for most of the game aside from the small RVS gap of posts between 88 and 135 where he scum read her for a bit.
Then of course Verdith did that whole fake claim that "cleared" Carca.

Honestly I wouldn't vote Carca unless Verdith flipped scum just because I don't see a case for Carca being a stand alone scum.
I'd rather vote Verdith because like Llama said in the last post (612) he's done basically nothing but add clutter.
Not quite sure what the vote count is right now, but I'm going to put my vote on Verdith if he's not at L-2/L-1 already.

Side note: I also don't really agree with you Llama when it comes to Scorpious. His last few posts aren't screaming town to me and his vote on Verdith is basically him declaring Verdith is scum for a NAI reason. Honestly all of his reads this game have felt terrible and based on bad reasoning.

[Io]

OK, so Verdith is scum.

VOTE: Verdith

He's trying to go with making it look so obvious that him and Carca are a scum team either hin hopes we mislynch a town!Carca or that we are too scared to lynch a scum!Carca.
That's for another day to figure out though.

[Io]

I'm going to lynch the guy who claims scum before lynching the person he claims is their partner.

[Io]

I really dislike Io pushing Vedith's scumclaim actually.

If you read I said I was going to vote Verdith regardless, I was just waiting for the vote count.
The fact that he claimed scum just confirms that I was right about him being scum.

@AUN - It's only 11 players a 3 man scum team I don't even think is possible to balance.

[Io]

If not 3 scum, it's most likely 2 and 1 traitor.
Don't go into the game assuming the best outcome otherwise you will all get bit if we go to an unknown LyLo.

That's the same thing though?

His post was clearly "If you think I'm scum with X, then help me bus X." referring to the fact that if you believe both are scum you should be willing to vote the other person. I don't like the way you're spinning it.

Except I said I would only vote Carca is Verdith was scum because the case of Carca being scum on her own is not very strong at all in my opinion.
Also I don't get how you see that in the post.

Io is just VI. Ignore her and just speak to the adults.

You are so lucky I am not a 1-shot Dayvig.

[Io]

So why not lynch Carca today then me tomorrow?

He literally said it explicitly.
Also, you did say that you thought CarcaxVedith was pretty strong, so it's clear to me why he would've thought that.

I said that, and said that Carca is only scum if Vedith is also scum.
It's fairly strait forward. Why would I want to lynch someone who I think would only be scum if another person is scum over that other person.

[Io]

I said that, and said that Carca is only scum if Vedith is also scum.

So if I flip town you are calling Carca town?

Pretty much I don't see Carca as being scum.
The only thing scummy about her is the interactions she's been having with you.

[Io]

I just checked normal guidelines.
"identity is not known by the Mafia team, although they should know a Traitor exists"

[Io]

Pretty much I don't see Carca as being scum.
The only thing scummy about her is the interactions she's been having with you.

Maybe you aren't just stupid like you give the impression.
Maybe you are trying to give Carca a town read to others with bad logic.

You infuriate me.
You can't just pull the stuff you pulled, claim scum as some sort of reaction test, then prance around like you're confirmed town.
I gave in full detail why I don't see Carca as being scummy with just how she is playing.

[Io]

The only thing scummy about her is the interactions she's been having with you.

So if you only have interactions with me that look scummy, and I flip town you are therefore town to Io...

I'm honestly stumped to if you believe an IQ is out of 100 or you are trying to prevent a Carca lynch going forward...

My God you are thicker than a milkshake.
Carca from what I've seen with the game so far and their ISO looks like a townie. The only thing that looks like it could be from a scum has been how they've interacted with you. It's called an associative tell. I believe your flip would be the same alignment as Carca's.

[Io]

So why not lynch Carca today then me tomorrow?

He literally said it explicitly.
Also, you did say that you thought CarcaxVedith was pretty strong, so it's clear to me why he would've thought that.

I said that, and said that Carca is only scum if Vedith is also scum.
It's fairly strait forward. Why would I want to lynch someone who I think would only be scum if another person is scum over that other person.

That's not even the point. The point is that you're spinning him thinking this is true for him scumclaiming for reasons ??? and ???

What are you even saying?

You infuriate me.
You can't just pull the stuff you pulled, claim scum as some sort of reaction test, then prance around like you're confirmed town.
I gave in full detail why I don't see Carca as being scummy with just how she is playing.

I'm Vedith, I can do the fuck I like.
Also, you are saying if you are wrong on my read here, you can't be wrong on Carca then being town...

That's not at all what I am saying. I'm saying that Carca just simply hasn't been scummy, and the only thing about them that has been even remotely scummy has been their interactions with you. And those interactions have basically been those of two buddy scum, so yes if you flipped town then Carca as of this point in time hasn't done anything scummy. Can they end up being scum? Sure, but they haven't done anything that would lead me to believe they are scum if you ended up flipping town.

[Io]

My God you are thicker than a milkshake.
Carca from what I've seen with the game so far and their ISO looks like a townie. The only thing that looks like it could be from a scum has been how they've interacted with you. It's called an associative tell. I believe your flip would be the same alignment as Carca's.

Given that I can always read Carca, me flipping town means that my read is more of value than yours.
You are not putting Carca to null on me flipping town, you are calling her town. Your logic does not back this up. You fucking flamingo.

That's not a given because you haven't proved it.


That's it. I'm fucking leaving. I'll be back in 5 or so hours.
I'm done with this shit of you two not listening to what I say and taking everything I say out of context.

[Io]

UNVOTE:

This is just because I'm replacing out because of a few things that just recently happened in real life today and the past week and not that I'm backing down on my read of Vedith.