Mini Normal 1929 - Game Over

[Steel]

What is dawn and why does it exist?

[Steel]

VOTE: No lynch

[Steel]

VOTE: No lynch

[Steel]

Tell not ircher, but I was prodging since his ruleset does not count prodges as prodges.

Tomorrow morning when I wake.

You know I read these posts, right?
~Ircher

[Steel]

I feel like it's a really awkward reaction test though.
Like, Steel votes no lynch, sure, w/e.
But when he does it again, that's just trying to force a reaction when none exists. It's not going with the actual flow of reactions, it's like "HI GUYS DID YOU REMEMBER I EXIST YEAH I'M GOING TO DO THIS REACTION TEST YAY PLEASE RESPOND SO I CAN GET THE TOWNCREDIT"

If I get responses like this I should do this every game.

[Steel]

11p is usually 2 scum and weak town prs, but maybe it is possible for 3 scum if they stack a whole lot of town power to make up for the 2 missing town.

[Steel]

I was going to vote IAI and maybe he's getting replaced, then lil uzi and see he's now on V/LA.

[Steel]

It's probably my fault this game was dying, apologies.

[Steel]

I have some townreads at least.

VOTE: Lil uzi vert

This is fluffing hard.

[Steel]

Scorpious what is your view of the game right now?

[Steel]

Scorpious what is your view of the game right now?

My view is that you decided to ask me something because you saw my activity as lacking and you thought I would be an easy way to look active.

Sorry all, RL did it's thing. Will catch up today..

Close, more that I wish to flesh out more null slots such as yourself before moving too far onwards however.

[Steel]

Io, I can't look you in eyes anymore.

[Steel]

*the

This game is peculiar as I have quite some townreads yet merely nulls for scums.

[Steel]

This post mainly.
As scum, I've been caught by the tryhard tell, and I can kind of sense the difference between townie and scummy tryhard.
He kind of mentions totally NAI and not-so analysisy stuff. (Get in the game, spamming)
Could be a way to have a look of more content, and in turn, LAMIST.
IDK, a focus is better too. Quality over quantity.

I've townread this from carcalilly, though now I wonder if it's not worthy of it. Still, to suspect someone so clearly lynchbaity feels bad.

[Steel]

UNVOTE:
Rereading I can understand lil uzi vert voting mario there.

[Steel]

Other way around.

As for things at the moment, I think I need to wait to see some responses.

[Steel]

VOTE: carcalilly

[Steel]

we could get some votes flowing on one player???? steel????

Wait, you haven't yet commented on me since I've arrived and you want more votes?

[Steel]

I first read mario as expressing impatience at me not voting anyone, but now I think he's calling for more votes onto me without having read any of my catch up?

[Steel]

don't really think you've done anything noteworthy and neither has anyone else, mostly i think voting or at least the suggestion of such may jumpstart the game

Usually, though when people vote purely for the sake of voting it's somewhat hollow. At least when it's overtly said.

[Steel]

I guess we can talk about random things.

I think vedith is okay here, interactions with carcalilly are probably him trying to sort her a bit and not scum flip flopping it for no reason.

[Steel]

Innocent 106 even when partially serious is kind of a stretch, though it's not much to go off either. Would likely wagon him anyways if he wasn't V/LA, often times the response when that happens is just a replace out.
Carcalilly seems to just be hanging around, she has a serious fos on alban but keeps the mario joke vote. Still would reserve judgement with her though for her reputation.
Scorpious I can't tell whether he is really scumhunting and doesn't seem that interested but his tonally he still reads okay.

Those are probably the people I would look to for the moment.

[Steel]

Innocent 106 even when partially serious is kind of a stretch, though it's not much to go off either. Would likely wagon him anyways if he wasn't V/LA, often times the response when that happens is just a replace out.
Carcalilly seems to just be hanging around, she has a serious fos on alban but keeps the mario joke vote. Still would reserve judgement with her though for her reputation.
Scorpious I can't tell whether he is really scumhunting and doesn't seem that interested but his tonally he still reads okay.

Those are probably the people I would look to for the moment.

Alban logically may be very good scum, that logical style is hard to nail down at any point in truth, but his self meta and earlier describing what may be tells on those he played with before reads genuine.

Io's sentiment with her having wished to watch Innocent for more is a feeling I identify with, and that sort of progression where you somewhat lose patience and do something you were holding on is town and would be hard to fake to my mind. Though she may have some of that alban thing going on I owe her better judgement now.

[Steel]

Why can't I be scum going for town cred, or trying to pocket Carca?

Maybe, usually flipflopping judged poorly though and if carcalilly is town she does not seem a good target to pocket.

[Steel]

Now that's getting good.
I'm a Sameday Sensor. So I've messaged Ircher and now I'll know how many scum are in Cara, Chilly and Alban.
If 2 of you fuckers are on me, I'm going to piss myself laughing, or PMSL as the kids say.

Methinks 1 scum if carcalilly and otherwise likely zero.

Such a role reads extremely powerful with the potential to confirm so many people if you hit all town however, which would actually be the most useful result.

[Steel]

Or rather I'm not quite that sure about tchill town, I might be a little biased for his whiteknighting me.

[Steel]

Vedith is known for fakeclaiming though.

[Steel]

Never mind.

[Steel]

PEdit:Because I was confident that the scumteam was vedith-mario-alban but that confidence was shattered so idk

I think this reaction is overblown.

[Steel]

Or rather I'm not quite that sure about tchill town, I might be a little biased for his whiteknighting me.

White knighting? I simply said there wasn't enough content from you. You're not worth defending I just figured your play could lead to an easy mislynch.

White knighting is an exaggeration but I felt personally compelled to say the expression.

[Steel]

Or rather I'm not quite that sure about tchill town, I might be a little biased for his whiteknighting me.

White knighting? I simply said there wasn't enough content from you. You're not worth defending I just figured your play could lead to an easy mislynch.

White knighting is an exaggeration but I felt

personally compelled

to say the expression.

...

knighting

Yeah you got what I was implying, well done.

[Steel]

I like the activity but this doesn't really help.

[Steel]

The Mario vote isn't entirely a joke

What is your mario read? I've only really seen you mention his pre-rvs post pinged you.

[Steel]

VOTE: Scorpious

Wouldn't mind a wagon here.

[Steel]

So whymafia you've caught up? Can you say more to your thoughts on what you've read from earlier?

Maybe go into your alban read.

[Steel]

I give up. Won't let me quote more than 10 times and it's too hard to separate it on mobile

Hmm, soo. I guess you are scum then..

VOTE: lil uzi vert

Scorpious is this still an rvs vote or did you scumread him and keep your vote there on purpose?

I remember you said the wagon on me was scum driven after lil uzi vert voted me, but I'm not sure who specifically you meant by it.

[Steel]

Why awesome?

[Steel]

Wait vedith do you townread alban chilly and carca or are you serious with your claim?

[Steel]

VOTE: Vedith
I thought he might be reaction testing but he is continuing to claim it seriously.
Yesterday I checked the mod profile and ircher had not visited the site since before carcalilly voted vedith which would have left no window to give vedith the PM he claimed to have received.

In retrospect I should perhaps have taken a screenshot but it can be my word against his.

[Steel]

viewtopic.php?t=67354&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

This game vedith claims cop with a guilty onto town, but gets lynched for it when people realize framer or any other explanation is impossible in a normal game. But if vedith knew that would happen he would not have done it and headed to a guaranteed loss, so it could only have been carelessness by him. I do not think this claim is out of the question for vedith to fake even with how bold it seems.

[Steel]

It's ridiculous that I even have to consider the possibility of someone straight up lying and fakeclaiming like this being town especially when he then doubles down on it when pressed instead of retracting.

[Steel]

I don't think this is a reaction test anymore with how he continues it this long and defends it so seriously.

[Steel]

There's only one other theory to how what he's trying to do would be protown but it would still be so stupid.

[Steel]

UNVOTE:

[Steel]

VOTE: Scorpious

Wouldn't mind a wagon here.

Why?

You are a null in a game where I townread most others.

[Steel]

What do you think of the wagon on you scorpious?

[Steel]

Also I had a question for you in 423 if you missed it.

[Steel]

If you desire to pressure and see more that is a fantastic reason to vote someone, although you can't fully reveal it when you do it or that defeats the purpose.

[Steel]

I think your timing of the situation may be confused though, for that was before you or vedith voted him.

[Steel]

Well, I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[Steel]

That's fair.

I will not be joining your scum driven wagon.

What do you think of the wagon on you scorpious?

It's a wagon that any experienced scum could make sound good.
Although, my opinion and tone can not be AI, but I'm sure there are some here that can twist it that way.

I don't know what you intend to accomplish when you say things like this but don't move to examine the specifics.

[Steel]

My bad, I was talking about myself there not you.

[Steel]

I'm not sure if there's a mixup here, it looked like you said I voted him after you did, but that was before when it was only mario voting I think.

[Steel]

My problem is he did not get the result he claimed he got when he got it, unless ircher signed in as invisible in that very brief window.

The issue though is on the chance he is at least telling the truth about the role, it's a powerful one that would take up most of the pr power available in 11p that's traditionally weaker on pr. As scum there is a good chance he gets exposed over time through other flips or counterclaimed, yet if town the lack of that may make that apparent too. On a risk basis it may be better to hold off at least for a day.

Then there's this which is very difficult to read into and likely simply ircher screwing with us, but still hard to ignore. Maybe he was inspired by vedith but sensor is kind of a creative thing to come up with out of the blue. If vedith is mafia it's still likely something in his role or a partner's pm that give the suggestion or hint of something similar to a sensor.
viewtopic.php?f=115&t=72661

[Steel]

So, I've seen some things that might substantiate the claim after all.

For one, ircher has just posted yet his profile says last logged in was yesterday. That issue I had before may be indeed be nothing.
Secondly, within normal queue it appears there are normal roles, explicitly not allowed roles, and apparently things in between.

There can only be a maximum of one Non-Normal role in a Mini Normal game and two Non-Normal roles in a Large Normal game.

I have not seen anything say a day sensor is not allowed in normal queue, and it would also seem to qualify as the one weird role permitted in the game.

[Steel]

Naturally if vedith has multiple shots we should utilize at minimum 2 of them before going back to the question of his alignment, although I think he is likely town with the claim now anyways.

Vedith can you use the ability multiple times in a day or is it once per day?

[Steel]

So obviously we can organize usage of this by getting people to vote.

If vedith has been telling the truth on his results, then when the chance is available I would want it next used on a wagon of myself, Io and mario. I believe that has the highest chance of being all clear.

If that goes through clear the remaining unclear players would be only 4 with the likely 2 remaining scum within, which should be a guaranteed win assuming the claim is real.

[Steel]

VOTE: Vedith

[Steel]

I think we should find out vedith's real claim the old fashioned way now.

[Steel]

He used a fakeclaim to try to push real lynches.

[Steel]

VOTE: Llamafluff

He is doing the exact same thing as me, but I feel like from him its scummy.

[Steel]

where?

pedit: I'm willing to consider Vedith as a lynch and I will think about that in the morning when I am more capable of critical thought, but Steel reccomended lynching him to reveal if his claim is true when he has retracted his claim.

I realize it doesn't come through, but that was annoyance. I do have half a mind to lynch him out of spite now for all the time I wasted researching that claim, though logically I still can't put that much scum motivation to him making everyone hate him either.

[Steel]

I think reading vedith is a pain in the ass, and I don't see llamafluff suffering through it enough.

[Steel]

VOTE: Carcalilly

[Steel]

Declaring V/LA Until Monday

[Steel]

My wagon was righteous and I am the best.

[Steel]

My impression is llama or scorpious is the other scum here, though I'll go into why when I'm more sure. I suspected whymafia earlier but he seems to have stepped up.

It appears scorpious has siteflaked so I would seek to see a replacement first for now and judge further.

[Steel]

Also I'm not paying attention to the finer details for the moment but I believe alban is just noise.

[Steel]

Gamma

prod scorpious so the timer for his replace can start.

[Steel]

Never mind, I guess he appeared onsite for the first time in days just now.

[Steel]

Also I'm not paying attention to the finer details for the moment but I believe alban is just noise.

Sorry, but what do you mean by this? I just want clarification

Noise as in probably a distraction. I've read a game he and Io was in a while ago and he came across as the very self conscious type which is generally pretty scummy.

[Steel]

What purpose other than planting your town flag did it serve?

I believe this is likely real thinking from scorpious.

[Steel]

VOTE: Llamafluff

I would justify this more if I could, but right now this is mostly a PoE read.

[Steel]

VOTE: Llamafluff

I would justify this more if I could, but right now this is mostly a PoE read.

How do you TR Alban???

Please just take my word for it. I don't feel alban is the right direction, and I've been burned too many times for not listening to feelings like this.

I believe llama is deciding to scumread slots and then as an experienced player very easily casing them to serve that purpose, or in carcalilly's case distancing. I think there is more back and forth in organic reads, more of a struggle. Here on mulch/io, but on vedith especially yesterday I got that impression as well.

I feel like an experienced player like him playing scum can be very hard to see as to some extent catching scum requires them to make mistakes, but PoE is pushing me in this direction too even moreso since scorpious towntold.

[Steel]

I was going to post but now I have to catch up again. :/

I am simultaneously pretty convinced by Llama's case, and agree with Steel that there's not enough back and forth in his reads. At this point I'm like 85% that one of Mulch and Llama is scum.

I don't understand how you got to this point when you said the flip had cleared llama just earlier and from Io being one of your strongest townreads day 1.

[Steel]

No massclaim today please.

[Steel]

In fact, when the hammer was happening, I was reading the last 10 pages, and making a detailed cases on everyone. I can share it with everyone as a proof.

You may as well to be honest.

[Steel]

Again I can somewhat verify alban's description of his play as sleepwalking, in fact as scum he seems more active and involved than town.

Alban it might be better to stop putting all your effort in defending your d1 actions and speak to the future. What are your reads now and what do you see as the way to go forward? I take it you believe whymafia is pushing you in bad faith with your vote on him?

[Steel]

Again I can somewhat verify alban's description of his play as sleepwalking, in fact as scum he seems more active and involved than town.

I should clarify that being known for doing something and then doing it is still more of a nai thing than anything else, and with what we have now whilst alban is not my preference I wouldn't rule out the possibility either.

[Steel]

Yeah, I would hope to throw out that entirely and judge him on other means if possible.

[Steel]

It was scorpious but his posts looked kind of town, right now it might just be between llama and alban but I am not comfortable still with stringing alban up.

It's rather early into the day however, and one of my concerns is if llama is scum and I get killed nobody persues him or he convinces everyone it was nothing. It may be a bias but I don't have that fear at all with alban who is likely doomed if he is scum anyways.

I'm not locking things in as of yet but vedith and carcalilly being gone does bring a lot of clarity and I don't have any reason to believe I'm misreading most of my townreads here despite there being so many.

If anything before the day ends I would want to solidify as many as possible in list of players I personally would advise never lynching, I feel that would hedge bets somewhat more reliably than anything else if today does end in mislynch.

[Steel]

Yeah, though day 2 has only just started really.

[Steel]

In fact, when the hammer was happening, I was reading the last 10 pages, and making a detailed cases on everyone. I can share it with everyone as a proof.

You may as well, to be honest.

[Steel]

I thought you had it written down at the time and you could copy and paste it now. Why would it involve a lot of time typing?

Also maybe put it in a spoiler tag.

[Steel]

Jesus christ mulch though. One vote isn't the end of the world especially when it realistically might be from scum anyways. You are nowhere near being in danger of a lynch.

[Steel]

Declaring V/LA Until Sunday

[Steel]

Checking in, don't think it's scorpious as he's been towntelling decently to me since he got involved.

The gamestate right now points to townread or proficient scum if it isn't alban. Resetting timer for now but I'll be on this later today.

[Steel]

I want to believe awesome is town through sheer amount of time invested into his reads and going as far as to meta research multiple times.

I know mulch has a reputation for steamrolling as scum but I played with Io in a game where I mislynched her earlier and she was locktown for me before she replaced out.

Still think llama may be likeliest scum here. Innocent's rage over being accused of faking his busyness read heavily exaggerated, the core of it was likely there but I think it was overplayed. Regarding mulch I'd somewhat expect after all that interaction if the scumread is still there to maybe convince them to switch or achieve some thing rather than continue to engage with probable scum but that might be a personal thing as well.

On some level we maybe should just flip today and narrow things down some however.

[Steel]

Even though I townread scorpious more I still feel like he's a better lynch to alban, I can't shake that the latter flips town.

[Steel]

Actually I've just been looking at the posts individually but holistically he doesn't really scumhunt.

[Steel]

VOTE: Scorpious l-1

[Steel]

I was going to a townbloc list for today but I don't really want my strongest reads dead.

If today is mislynch then without a doubt massclaim tomorrow.

[Steel]

Ironically it appears tchill was killed for reads and not pr hunting.

[Steel]

UNVOTE:

[Steel]

I've only read the claim so far, but if true it is likely optimal to let him use his shot. In some ways weak doctor is stronger than full doctor for one night. Similar to cop scum have to kill this tonight if its town or likely face one person being confirmed as town.

If he's scum lynching him today or tomorrow is nearly identical.
However lynching him tomorrow if he is town and hasn't therefore been killed should at least provide a confirmed town through his flip. Furthermore, if we do mislynch today his role may be judged along with others when massclaim happens. If there are not enough other claims for town pr then scorpious may be confirmed through deduction, conversely if there are too many town power role claims we may use that as a metric as well. Overall on more night gives multiple chances for things to work out for the better and little downside or risk.

Although the target should not be public in this case as that would give an option for the target to be killed instead if scorpious is town. I believe random selection of a target might be ideal, as if he is town his reads are somewhat public too. The best result overall may just be if he just dies if he's town as there isn't more to judge and consider but that's still better than mislynching him if that is the case.

[Steel]

@Scorpious: The way you'd use a weak doctor is to say (or I guess heavily crumb) beforehand who you're targeting, and then if you die town will probably figure out how

Such would be the case ordinarily, but with a claim in the open any subtlety is extremely unlikely to work now.

[Steel]

I really want to lynch llama here and I don't like the consensus scumreads on whymafia and awesome which it seems like the lynch might head to. Again I'm not a fan of his predecessors replace out here.

I would do alban on compromise but where I leave my vote today is likely the last time I'll be present until deadline so I won't be able to change it.

[Steel]

VOTE: alban
I assume llamafluff wagon isn't happening with people strong townreading him and I won't be around to push it either.

For future reference if I die. If today is mislynch massclaim. I believe a setup such as this should have minimum 3 town power roles total, but 3-4 total looks like an acceptable range. Setup speculation is dangerous without experience and the only person likely qualified would be llama but I don't trust his alignment at all here so be very careful. Naturally scum if they claim will claim things that fit in well, particularly if they get a chance to claim last so although useful the judgment must still be exercised well. Of course if there are not so many power role claims and all of them look strong that would point to scum in the VTs and you look there accordingly. I believe awesome is a lot townier than people read him for, I'm less sure now about people like mario who I strong townread day 1 but somewhat forgot about.

Claim order is perhaps ideally decided by people doing kingmaker and consensus deciding someone as the towniest and then letting them pick the claim order. I would recommend that doesn't end up being llama though.

In this setup the 11p should be a boon to town compared to 9 assuming 2 scum, and it makes the 2 shot vig is a powerful role here. A less powerful supporting role like 1 shot weak doctor fits and I might expect 1 or 2 more roles to round things out. 3 more claims on the other hand would bring it up to 5 total power roles which I would start suspecting more. There is more but it should be apparent it when it happens.