Mini Normal 1988 (Endgame)

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Lalendra

A vague, unproductive comment. Her focus is on stifling the development of the game rather than trying to sort people.

[Luca Blight]

So Lalendra is suspicious of people having early reads when she feels we're still in RVS, but then votes Moz for making an RVS vote...

[Luca Blight]

Luca has 2 posts only towards Lalendra which I don't quite like, moz vote didn't seem to be RVS.

I never said her vote was RVS; she voted Moz for an RVS vote, which is at odds with her suspicion of people who acquired reads during RVS.

[Luca Blight]

Nothing wrong with being suspicious of reads on page 3. Lalendra looks town to me.

The irony of this post.

I don't see how anyone can base a townread on Lalendra based on what she has posted so far.

[Luca Blight]

That's obviously a possibility.

[Luca Blight]

Luca has 2 posts only towards Lalendra which I don't quite like, moz vote didn't seem to be RVS.

I never said her vote was RVS; she voted Moz for an RVS vote, which is at odds with her suspicion of people who acquired reads during RVS.

Catching up but addressing things in order.

It didn't look RVS to me, because at that point we had started content discussion which, as was already pointed out, he sidestepped to place his random vote, which was out of place at that time due to the fact that actual conversation was starting to ramp up.

It clearly was an RVS vote; despite what was occurring in the thread at the time, it was Moz' opening post and clearly not a serious one. He later confirmed he hadn't read any of the thread until that point.

Given we now know it was a RVS post and Moz has made contributions since then, why are you still voting him? Are you scumreading him based on anything else?

[Luca Blight]

I also enjoy that literally no one has pointed out the fact that it could just be a reaction test, or a post to get the game moving, or a prodge, or (what it actually was) my honest assessment that anyone who forms solid reads on page 2 is being a little reachy. It wasn't directed at anyone in general, it was a statement about the game.

What does such a statement achieve from a Town perspective? The sooner people start giving reads and views, no matter if they are reaching, the sooner content can build. The fact it wasn't directed at anyone makes it even worse - you say you're suspicious, but who of exactly? You vote the guy who made a late RVS post, not any of the people who gave reads too early, so I don't believe your suspicion.

Like if you think I'm scum, just vote me now and you'll have 6 pages of info and associatives going into day 2. But I guarantee that while I'm not the worst lynch, I'm definitely not the best.

This is just weird.

[Luca Blight]

I should have just said "WHEN I get mislynched"

town town town, hes completely relaxed out in the open

I couldn't disagree more.

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Leeoon

His complete lack of content cannot be ignored.

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Leeoon

His complete lack of content cannot be ignored.

What about my lack of content?

Obviously it's not as severe a case as Leeoon's. Additionally, from the game I played with Leeoon before I recall him being far more involved as Town.

Why do you ask?

[Luca Blight]

Luca’s vote I could see coming from scum. There are better ways to get people to engage them voting them. I don’t know why he specifically chose him when my content (and others as well) are also lacking.

Voting is the most useful tool we have and is therefore as good a way to make engage somone, patricularly one who appears to be coasting through the day.

If you look through Leeoon's ISO, he makes about one post per real life day without any relevant input. The fact his last post didn't include any sort of catch up and ignored at least one question I saw put to him makes it even worse. Add to this the point I raised above that it is in stark contrast to how he began the last game a I played with him.

Cause I don’t understand how you came to single one person out.

Simply because he is the worst for it, and it goes against the meta I have on him. Even Paradox with less posts has produced more game-related content than he has.

[Luca Blight]

Luca’s vote I could see coming from scum. There are better ways to get people to engage them voting them. I don’t know why he specifically chose him when my content (and others as well) are also lacking.

Voting is the most useful tool we have and is therefore as good a way as any to engage someone, particularly one who appears to be coasting through the day.

If you look through Leeoon's ISO, he makes about one post per real life day without any relevant input. The fact his last post didn't include any sort of catch up and ignored at least one question I saw put to him makes it even worse. Add to this the point I raised above that it is in stark contrast to how he began the last game a I played with him.

Cause I don’t understand how you came to single one person out.

Simply because he is the worst for it, and it goes against the meta I have on him. Even Paradox with less posts has produced more game-related content than he has.

EBWOP

[Luca Blight]

arch rubbed me the wrong way when he told people to sheep him, sheeping is very bad for town and I don't see why town would encourage other townies to do something bad. I also don't like that he actually scum reads somebody for lamist, At first I thought he didn't, but when roy chimes in and he tells him to hush and let his scum buddy answer, that is pretty much saying he scum reads lalendra for lamist. I honestly can't see any townie who thinks that is a good reason to scum read somebody.

This is ridiculously simplistic.

Sheeping isn't inherently bad - it depends entirely on the context. The context of this was RVS - it's nothing original or unique for people to say 'sheep me' during RVS. I must have seen it countless times on this site, so I don't know why you're trying to paint that as something particularly negative.

Why could a townie not scumread someone for LAMIST? Scum, by their very wincon, need to try to look town, so anything that looks like someone is overtly trying to appear townie could indeed be a scumtell.

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

I voted Bu as a literal sheeping vote, and Leeoon did the same. I can't see why the same couldn't have happened for Moz, I even gave an (admittedly weak) argument.

Having said so;

Preposition: The middle votes on an early wagon are scum-like

This is something I saw float around and wanted to try out. Surely, couldn't mean anything, but it's what I wanted to try out this game. The early votes are people trying to start a wagon for one reason or another, ergo, they take the spotlight. Hammer doesn't happen this early, but even if, scum hammering the D1 mislynch would bring a lot of attention. So, if any scum want to be on an early wagon possibly headed for mislynch, then why not in the middle?

I wanted to keep this, because now that I'm talking about it, arguments around this are WIFOM.

Let's take a look at some of the third/fourth votes on wagons.

First case: Leeoon, 46. Really empty vote on Bu. "Going to agree with this" is a bit eh. Scum could want to hop onto such a wagon if it's there without valid reason anyway.

Case two: Seph, 54 on Leeoon. Also an empty vote, sorta kinda following Nero I guess.

Case 3: TIAM, 102 on TGP. Lurker vote transforming into a small wagon.

Case 4: Luca on Leeoon, 183 but this one is actually "re-igniting" an older wagon.

So, let me know what you think. Could be shit reasoning in y'all's opinion, if so feel free to ignore but hey, I tried, right?

Out of these 4 I think Leeoon is the most suspicious right now for the vote and for lack of great content, followed by Luca/TIAM then Sephiroth.

Why did you highlight my vote on Leeoon but ignore my earlier vote on Lalendra?

[Luca Blight]

I don't understand why you're scumreading me.

You say my case is weak, but the only semblance of a case I've made this game has been on Lalendra, which you seem to agree with? You also agree with my position on Leeoon, so I am puzzled.

[Luca Blight]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Jaber

The more I look at 211 the more it pings the hell out of me.

1) he throws me and Roy under the same umbrella, even though our play has been nothing alike. Jaber say our cases are weak and our approach is ineffective and anti-town. I can see how this might relate to Roy and his gambit, but how does this relate to me at all?

2) What is the purpose of his Chumba point about? It's like he's townreading him but casting doubt at the same time, saying he's surprised no-one is scumreading him. At best this is just meaningless filler.

3) Says anyone who townreads Lalendra is wrong - even as someone who scumreads Lalendra myself, I don't see how he can be so certain of his scumread based on what we have seen so far. This comment is just lazy shade-throwing - trying to provoke suspicion against someone without adding any sort of relevant analysis or reasoning.

4) Jaber says my vote on Leeoon is interesting, and that he also wants to put his vote there. So what is 'interesting' meant to imply here? He's agreeing with my view, yet trying to paint it in a negative light at the same time.

He's just throwing shade in as many different directions as possible with no actual focus or intent, and his read on me feels fabricated.

[Luca Blight]

@Luca your Lalendra vote was the start of a wagon. I was looking at middle votes (votes 3-5)

Exactly. Your point is that middle votes are scummy and wagon-starting ones are not because they 'take the spotlight', so how is it a fair analysis to only look at the scummy data while ignoring the townie data?

Also, my vote on Leeoon was the second on his wagon at the time of voting, so shouldn't even qualify for 'middle voting' given your criteria.

[Luca Blight]

What particularly makes you say TIAM is scum?

[Luca Blight]

Fair enough. It's as good a lynch as any for D1.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: TIAM

[Luca Blight]

I've got a feeling about Prism/Jaber being scum - Jaber's scumread on him after his opening post felt weird, and the way Prism casually accepted it was even weirder.

[Luca Blight]

How can you call my case on Lalendra weak when you've not even made a case? I mean, you haven't even stated

why

you believe Lalendra is scum - I assumed you were just sheeping my views, which you now call weak? And I didn't agree with

you

; my scumread of her came before yours, so you agreed with me. I don't claim to have a case on Leeoon at all; he hasn't posted anything that can even be credited as content. You agree with my point, but then use that point against me?

Why are you suspicious that no-one suspected a town read of yours? Who are you suspicious of? This position only really works as Chumba being scum, with the idea being if he was town then scum at the very least would point out his suspicious behaviour.

Why is a townlean on Prism a smoking gun if you're partners? Are you seriously suggesting scum buddies wouldn't take such a position?

[Luca Blight]

Pretty sure Jaber's read on me is completely fabricated; it doesn't make sense. He's plucked it from thin air.

He agrees with my read on Lalendra and Leeoon, but then scumreads me for making 'weak' cases on those two, even though my points against Lalendra were made about four pages into the game, and I never even made a case against Leeoon, as well as the fact Jaber has never stated why he scumreads Lalendra himself - he voted her after I did without reason, which in itself implies he concurred with my views.

Furthermore, he never stated this suspicion of me at the time, and even as recent as 178 made it clear he wasn't comfortable voting for me.

I believe he saw Chumba and Roy's points against me on page 9 and suddenly jumped on me as another potential target to throw shade on.

[Luca Blight]

I still want a TIAM lynch today. He has done nothing to warrant a stay of execution, and his excuse that 'not much has happened' simply isn't valid.

Evidently, I did. I mean, what's the town value of tunneling, as opposed to keeping an open mind and weighing out options?

Keeping options open imo is what scum want.

Which is what you seem to be doing.

[Luca Blight]

You haven't particularly taken a hard stance on anyone yet this game. You're voting Roy yet are not pushing his lynch. Your other scum reads are poorly reasoned and again you don't seem to be following up on them. You haven't taken a stance on Jaber or TIAM either.

You say you're famous for tunneling as Town on your other account, so why are you being so different here?

[Luca Blight]

Roy is so obviously scummy to you, yet you're not pushing his lynch, despite your natural tendency to tunnel when you're Town? If I hadn't ISO'd you I wouldn't have even realised you were voting Roy. That's pretty damning in itself.

What about my case that Jaber basically invented his read on me? His read progression doesn't add up. You still haven't mentioned TIAM.

Please detail why we should lynch Roy. The only thing you said previously was his gambit, which isn't particularly compelling. Why is his recent vote worse than the others who voted Jaber?

You haven't taken a stance on Jaber or TIAM either.

Why do I have to take a stance on them if I already have people I’m scum reading?

Anyone not in my list is either town or null

Because they are the lynch candidates, so you either need to compromise on one of them or push your own target. If you're not scumreading them, state why.

You seem to be content doing none of the above.

[Luca Blight]

My point is you haven't been pushing Roy's lynch. I saw you make the odd comment on Roy, but I honestly didn't think you were voting anyone until I looked back over your ISO.

If you're not going to compromise yet then why not try to convince me and others to vote the guy who is so obviously scum to you?

What do you think of TIAM's vote on Jaber? Better or worse than Roy's?

You also avoided my question on Jaber. You say no-one has a half-decent case on him, I pointed out my one and asked you what you thought, but again you avoided this question.

[Luca Blight]

Another thing that's been bugging me about Chumba for a while is this:

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Leeoon

His complete lack of content cannot be ignored.

What about my lack of content?

I feel like he asked this question purely for the purpose of being townread for it. It's a version of LAMIST -

"Why would scum draw attention to themselves like that?"

The reason it stands out to me is because there is no reason to ask it. It was clear, and is still clear why I voted Leeoon over anyone else at that point for lack of content. Chumba himself had way more content at this point. The fact he then uses it to cast shade on me, again without following up on it, is even worse.

[Luca Blight]

If you had asked '

what about other people's lack of content

' it would be a more reasonable question, but to ask specifically what about his lack of content just seems off.

I can't imagine a townie mindset being

'why aren't you voting me instead?'

[Luca Blight]

No I honestly wanted to know why you single one person out when others are guilty of it.

And what did you make of my explanation? Again, I don't know as you never followed up on it.

[Luca Blight]

Such vagueness...

Why aren't you a fan of my explanation?
What have I done that is LAMIST?
What are the things I called scummy that aren't even scummy?

[Luca Blight]

1. Because Leeoon was the worst perpetrator for the lack of content, and because in his last post he failed to make any sort of catch-up or answer the questions put to him, From the meta I have on Leeoon, this is pretty unusual behaviour for him. Why this doesn't make sense to you I don't know. TIAM probably isn't the best example for you to bring up either given I'm currently voting him...

2. I don't see how voting a lurker counts as LAMIST. If it wasn't productive then that's due to Leeoon's continued absence, not due to the vote itself.

Again, saying you haven't taken hard stances isn't LAMIST either. You might as well label anything I've ever said as LAMIST. I'm not saying you have to tunnel anyone, but you're comment that you usually tunnel made it really stand out how laid-back you've been this game. You say Roy is obviously scum but are unwilling to push him - I can't understand that mindset from a town perspective.

Re. 227 - The point was he agreed with my read on Lalendra, but later scumread me for making a weak case on her even though the case (which consisted of only a couple of points) were made four pages into the game, and despite the fact Jaber didn't give any unique reasons himself as to why lalendra is scum - he was basically riding on the coat tails of my 'case'. Again, this isn't LAMIST - It's pointing out hypocrisy and potential scumminess.

3. The point about not knowing who you were voting was an indictment on your lack of urgency in pushing your scumread. Not mentioning people who are the biggest lynch candidates when we're nearing deadline is also a fair point to raise. As scum you would obviously be happier sitting back near deadline and let town mess themselves up rather than get your hands dirty unnecessarily.

[Luca Blight]

Nobody has shown interest in voting my scum reads. The amount of time and energy it would take to basically scream at people and strong arm them isn’t worth it cause I’m not even 100% sure I’m right.

What happened to Roy being

"so obviously scummy"

?

If this is your attitude then you are vanity voting; it's futile.

You might as well label anything I've ever said as LAMIST.

I actually think your entire play this game is lamist. (See my trying too hard comment).

Right. So I accuse you of LAMIST with a specific example and valid reasoning and you reply by saying everything I do is LAMIST.

It's a cheap retort bordering on desperation.

You say Roy is obviously scum but are unwilling to push him - I can't understand that mindset from a town perspective.

You’ve never been too busy irl where you have neglected or fallen behind in a game? You’ve never played a game where it’s going to be an uphill battle to convince people to listen to you and you decided that it’s better to just stay out of the way and trust the others to do their thing instead?

Like I said. Think outside of the box.

A poor excuse, given you have made more posts than anyone in this game. You haven't neglected this game, nor have you fallen behind in it. You are deliberately playing this way.

I’ve actually played with you where you were busy and didn’t push hard for a lynch on your scum read so idk why you are giving me shit for it.

When was this?

[Luca Blight]

To return to the origin of this: you said scum are more likely to keep their options open, and I've shown you up for doing just this, no matter how much you might deny it.

[Luca Blight]

The problem is there are so many inactive and suspect players this game. The only reason I'm not voting Chumba is because I believe a TIAM lynch is the better option for D1; at least Chumba is producing content and can be sorted later, whereas TIAM has been making excuses all day and will most likely continue to do so.

The only two I townread at the moment are Nero and Moz, and even that's at a stretch.

[Luca Blight]

Your preference for lynching Paradox over TIAM makes no sense - Tiam has also done nothing recently but join wagons.

Your reasoning for not voting me could equally apply to Roy.

If you're implying that I'm scumreading you for not playing like me then you are sorely mistaken.

[Luca Blight]

@Mod

- I don't really understand the logic behind the number of real life days for each game day. Surely D1, with the largest number of players alive, should command the most amount of time before deadline? Is it possible to get an extension, even just by a couple of days, to allow everyone time to make a worthwhile contribution? Otherwise the day might end without certain players providing any content at all.

[Luca Blight]

If you don't have time to play then:

1) replace out

2) don't join so many games in future

I also don't have a lot of time, hence why I'm only in one game at the moment. To join games and then not play, regardless of alignment, is just inconsiderate and ruins it for everyone else. Second guessing lurkers is the worst aspect of Mafia. It's not how the game should be played.

[Luca Blight]

Two has already claimed VT. If we're lynching a lurker then he is the safest bet for today.

[Luca Blight]

TIAM and Roy are clearly the two lynch candidates for today and no-one should be voting anyone but them at this point.

I'm still of the belief that TIAM is as good a lynch as any, and is minimal risk given they've already claimed VT.

[Luca Blight]

...Can I just point out that TIAM still only has six votes, and therefore is not yet hammered?

[Luca Blight]

TwoInAMillion(6) Nero Cain, Luca Blight, Archwing, Sephiroth, TheGoldenParadox, Chumba

L-1

13 alive, 7 to lynch.

[Luca Blight]

Nice one.