Mini 2006: Scummer in this game UPick GAME OVER

[zMuffinMan]

I THINK I NEED TO YELL IN ALL CAPS THIS GAME

[zMuffinMan]

zMuffinMan replaces in for MOMOMEN.

Your slot claimed flipless Miller ZMuffinMan.

Do you confirm this?

LET ME CHECK THE SCUM PT FOR ADVICE ON MY FAKECLAIM AND I'LL GET BACK TO YOU SHORTLY

[zMuffinMan]

zMuffinMan replaces in for MOMOMEN.

Your slot claimed flipless Miller ZMuffinMan.

Do you confirm this?

phew, lucky i didn't confirm this without checking

you're lying to me; that's not my fake-claim

good try, though!

[zMuffinMan]

realistically speaking, where do you see this conversation going?

this ain't my first time at the rodeo and if i were scum, i'd have read everything my predecessor claimed before posting

you tried, it failed, let's leave it there and move on, shall we?

i think you're probably town, though, so at least this wasn't a completely fruitless endeavour

[zMuffinMan]

whenever someone has said to me "do X or you die", they've never successfully made me die after i refused

perhaps you'll be the first!

[zMuffinMan]

whenever someone has said to me "do X or you die", they've never successfully made me die after i refused

perhaps you'll be the first!

I am not alone. I aim to lynch scum. Of which you almost certainly are if you don’t claim any neg mods you have or don’t have.

well, since you're allowing me to claim ones i do

or

don't have, i'm a lynchproof bulletproof hated miller gladiator beloved princess PGO super saint

and a jester... which makes no sense to me, but i guess is cheetory's idea of a joke

[zMuffinMan]

well that would fit the jester role, i suppose

i guess there was a method to cheetory's madness after all

[zMuffinMan]

Yeah, definitely

oh, are you scum this game, pine?

[zMuffinMan]

if there's a rolecop on the table, then why is this even a discussion?

[zMuffinMan]

oh

then i guess it doesn't help that i don't know why

*shrug*

in other news, #4235 is a scum post. points to anyone who can tell me the various reasons why

[zMuffinMan]

oh, pine is sudowoodo

well, maybe not pine then

back to skimming kokichi iso (i am probably not going to read 170 pages so after i skim kokichi's iso, i'll consider myself caught up)

though if anyone wants to summarise key events, that'd be cool. or point me to something and maybe i'll have a read of that and see what i think

[zMuffinMan]

{LLD, Claire, Kokichi} is the solve btw.

If I told you that you were right about me, would you believe me?

this is why not sudowoodo fwiw

oh, and your #4235 just sucks if you're town, pine - ticks every box on the scum checklist. i'd recommend not doing that if you're town

[zMuffinMan]

what do you mean the slot not being a janitor?

[zMuffinMan]

oh. then i'm that then

if my predecessor didn't withdraw whatever fake-claim he was using, then i would be remiss to think i know better

so i'm sticking with whatever my predecessor fake-claimed. whatever that happens to be

[zMuffinMan]

He already claimed counter to it and had no idea what I was talking about.

i think you're a very confused individual

[zMuffinMan]

someone do a summary of claims and whatnot, ty

Vote: Not_Mafia

[zMuffinMan]

Spoiler: kokichi rundown

502 -nico
509 -sudowoodo
515 -sudowoodo
534 +redflavor (d)
550 -mastina
554 -sudowoodo
564 -sudowoodo
573/576/580 -sudowoodo
583 -cheeky
823 -cheeky
828/830 -wisdom?
870 maybe important (also -wisdom?)
886 -sudowoodo (also -mastina?)
891 -sudowoodo
894 -nico
899 -sudowoodo
912 -cheeky
915 -wisdom
1045 -cheeky
1048 -beeboy?
1057 -wisdom?
1145 -beeboy
1146 -mastina
1805 -wisdom?
1829 -cheeky
1994 +redflavor (d)
2174 -wisdom?
2290 -cheeky
2314 -cheeky
2317 -wisdom
2659/2660/2667/2672 -mastina
3033 -masons?
3743/3744/3746 -nahdia?

strong negative connections with sudowoodo, cheeky
moderate negative connections with mastina, nico, wisdom
weak negative connection with beeboy
weak positive connection with redflavor

that's all the reading of the game i'm doing. from this point on, magua-replacing

[zMuffinMan]

just assume that everything my predecessor(s) said was factual

(though i'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and guess they didn't claim at least one part of my role)

[zMuffinMan]

The mafia part?

please don't make facetious remarks. this is a serious game and that sort of thing isn't appreciated

we both know i wasn't referring to the mafia part. it would be silly for them to reveal that. i was obviously referring to something else

[zMuffinMan]

you know, if onthemark had just asked about the flipless part, i'd have (probably) given him a straight answer

but he added the

oh so very clever

"miller" part to the question (*clap* *clap* i've never seen anyone do that before - i can't even comprehend the sheer genius required to come up with such a cunning plan that would

definitely

fool anyone who's played more than a couple games of mafia) and refused to drop it when i asked him to

so now i'm going to be treating him as though his intelligence is at the level of someone who thinks what he asked me is a good question. thus i'm either going to ignore any further questions/requests from him or reply with remarks that should make my utter contempt for his play obvious

sorrynotsorry

if anyone else has questions about anything or wants to steer me towards something and ask for my input, go ahead

don't ask me any more stupid questions about the flipless thing, though. everything that needs to be said about it was already said in #4260

[zMuffinMan]

what happened D2?

[zMuffinMan]

i just read the start of D2 and it seems pointless to keep reading without any context and i don't particularly feel like reading 150 pages for context

point me to a list of claims that are on the table and/or make one please

then i'll consider reading some things that have happened

[zMuffinMan]

i mean, the start of D2 is literally everyone talking about night actions and role conflicts, so that seems kind of important if you want me to read that

[zMuffinMan]

it's not an insult. i said i'll be treating you as though you're as intelligent as someone who thinks that's a good question. that's not to say you aren't smarter than that. unless you think what you asked is a good line of questioning

i'm doing this for your own good. i need to discourage the sort of approach you took here or you'll think it's actually a smart thing to do

[zMuffinMan]

i'm a altruist. everything i do is out of benevolence. please don't insinuate i'm actually an asshole and trying to get away with insults on a technicality

[zMuffinMan]

Is Muffin saying that Momo lied?

#4260

[zMuffinMan]

this is why you're on the fast-track to being a future paragon and i'm stuck being shit at scum, pine

if only i'd done the smart thing and read through my predecessor's ISO or even the scum PT before posting, so that i wouldn't make such an obvious mistake

[zMuffinMan]

yes, the two of us are very similar players with very similar skill levels, so i would likely make the same mistake as you

good point

[zMuffinMan]

especially when directly asked a question about what my predecessor claimed

[zMuffinMan]

you are clearly a prodigy at this game and few can hope to measure up to you

who else but you could have achievements such as that?

i'm sorry for suggesting that you aren't a good player. i don't know what came over me, when all evidence points to the opposite being the case

[zMuffinMan]

it must be hard to play scum well when people have such low expectations of your town game

just how do you do it?

[zMuffinMan]

i'm just going to put this out there, as the only thing i will say about this that's actually serious (because it's an interesting theory point totally unrelated to you in particular but it does have to do with something you've said)

i think the only people who can truly call themselves good at scum are ones about which people say "if they're alive after N2/N3, lynch them"

if your town game isn't good, then getting away with things as scum is much, much easier

[zMuffinMan]

if you don't understand what that statement means, then i'm not surprised

i've had my fun. i'm done talking to you now

[zMuffinMan]

VOTE: Nahdia

why nahdia?

[zMuffinMan]

oh. why didn't cheetory tell me that then?

fucking bastard mods

[zMuffinMan]

if you think that's overdone, just imagine how cheetory feels about the all caps PM i just sent him

[zMuffinMan]

i didn't plan on playing like this; no one seems to want to engage me or talk about anything game-related with me though, so here we are...

still waiting on literally anyone to give even a summary of claims/actions (also flavour claims if that has happened)

why is nahdia scum?

[zMuffinMan]

that doesn't seem like a reason to think that slot is scum. my last game with beeboy, he also fakeclaimed masons

he could be scum doing it, i suppose, but that seems like a pretty meh reason

do you think this series of posts was scum theatre?

i think this post looks more like something a scum player would say to a town player when trying to get suspicion off them

and i think this post might be a bit too blatant/awkward for a scum-scum interaction

[zMuffinMan]

to be fair, beeboy did retract the mason claims after a while in that game (though i think that was partially because it was a micro and everyone was focused on the mason claims early on so little else was being discussed and also the risk of being counter-claimed in a micro is fairly low). but i don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that he'd do it if he had a strong townread on someone (though he might also do it as scum? i dunno) - would have to look at the context behind it and i can't be bothered digging at the moment (unless some kind soul in here can point me directly to it?)

what i read of kokichi's interactions with LLD were fairly neutral - nothing that looked particularly town, nothing that looked particularly bad either

wisdom (OTM) otoh had a fair few interactions with kokichi that didn't look like scum-scum to me. actually probably better for me to just link back to this rather than mention them all individually (some of them are iffy~ish, thus the question marks)

(i think redflavor looked the worst from kokichi interactions basically because there was suspicion placed onto that slot but nothing ever eventuated from it in terms of an actual push. also the thing kokichi said about the scum PT in response to something redflavor said looked awkward. but nothing strong. but even these interactions aren't solid; they just look worse than other players)

[zMuffinMan]

There isn't really anything damning association-wise from Red's side. I'm hesitant to read Kokichi's side for associatives given his reputation.

right. like i mentioned in the post i made, it's a very weak positive connection, but i think it's still more indicative of anything else in the game (IMO) as far as positive connections go

i think kokichi is capable of doing generic talk-to-or-about-buddy stuff as scum (e.g. this post X-who-is-my-buddy made is scummy or asking simple questions to them), but i think he's weak at holding natural-sounding conversations with buddies or going in depth about game-relevant content with them (most people are, though)

so, for example, the strong negative connections with cheeky and sudowoodo come from multiple examples of conversations that i think are unlikely to have been kokichi interacting with a buddy. and i think another example of this would be kokichi telling nahdia off for scum-reading maria (the way in which it occurred, specifically)

i also think kokichi is the type of person to accidentally mindset-slip when interacting with people who scum-read him. i don't know if this is a thing that makes sense to other people but what i'm talking about is instances of a scum player letting their guard down and talking to a person in a way that betrays that person is town when responding to suspicion. an example of this would be him berating wisdom for not being able to read him correctly on multiple occasions. this alone wouldn't necessarily be a negative interaction (scum

can

do theatre like this), but the way in which it was done at different points this game looked like a mindset slip to me. though others may disagree

[zMuffinMan]

oh, and while there's nothing i'd say is a homerun-definitive-scum-scum interaction between kokichi and redflavor, i do think the little interactions they had were awkward enough that it's a good starting point, at least

i guess the scum-PT comment to redflavor was an example of the opposite of a mindset slip thing, IMO. it reads like an unnatural i-know-you're-scum interaction. but it's weak, obviously, since i guess it could have just been a potentially awkward comment he made towards a town player

[zMuffinMan]

(oh and fwiw i thought kokichi's interactions with the beeboy-slot were a weak negative connection; there weren't enough instances for me to say anything definitive but i thought it was at least slightly indicative of scum-town)

[zMuffinMan]

all that said, i only have one game's experience with kokichi. if someone can point me to games he's played where he held natural-sounding conversations with buddies that weren't a back-and-forth about suspicion on each other (i.e. distancing), i'll re-evaluate

[zMuffinMan]

general question for anyone who wants to answer: what is the likelihood of not_mafia and LLD being the team?

[zMuffinMan]

Like I've been calling Kokichi and N_M scum for literally the entire game basically, and one of them has flipped scum and the other is just really obvscum.

So, like, I dunno.

OK. i think you're a good enough player that you wouldn't be afraid of distancing from or bussing

liabilities

weaker partners here for all the credit it's worth though. more so if they're never in any real danger of being lynched early, because if they ever do flip later, you get the added benefit of looking better for being right all game and if only town listened. that's not to suggest you can't be town with good reads, btw. i'm just saying it's not something that convinces me you can't be scum with them

i get that you have a sticky vote, but i don't see that as much of a reason to not use it at all, especially if, as you say, not_mafia is obviously scum

note: this post was written 1.5 hours ago but my plane has shitty wifi so i haven't been able to get on the net since i wrote it...

[zMuffinMan]

oh and the reason i suggested that you might be scum with them is simply a lack of town-looking interactions with kokichi

you both were suspicious of each other, yeah, but there was never any danger of either of you being lynched D1 from the looks of it and none of it looked like stuff that couldn't easily be distancing

most other players have town-looking interactions with kokichi

the sole exception being lovebird who has virtually nothing with kokichi

[zMuffinMan]

what are your actual reads, not_mafia?

[zMuffinMan]

what are your actual reads, not_mafia?

Lady Lambdadelta
Nahdia
Lovebird
zMuffinMan

do you think everyone else is town or are those just your top 4 scum reads?

[zMuffinMan]

right. so you're reading the rest of the game as town?

what makes you think mathdino is town? what makes you think OTM is town?

why is LLD your first pick?

[zMuffinMan]

you would expect her to go after you with more vigor or something? why?

[zMuffinMan]

youre misunderstanding

it's not that he forgot that, it's that he wasnt cognizant of that being a good way to use it

[zMuffinMan]

no, i think he saw people doubting it and went "oh, duh, there's an easy way to settle this"

it's the equivalent of someone who wants to lynch a claimed vig after a cc going "oh duh, they can just shoot each other"

[zMuffinMan]

if it makes things easier to understand, i dont think he gave you a rolecop specifically to use on me, thus the "oh, duh" moment

but that's just how im reading it

[zMuffinMan]

also dont see why scum-him forgets he gave you a rolecop either (coz, ya know, i think id be fairly conscious of that) so i think my interpretation makes more sense tbh

[zMuffinMan]

maybe you're being scum-read because you're wearing a fedora

an image change might help you

[zMuffinMan]

varsoon used to scum read me every game because of my avatar

that's why he made this for me:

Spoiler:

but that gave people seizures

so he made this for me instead:

Spoiler:

after that, he still scum-read me every game, but he could no longer blame it on the avatar

an important lesson was learned somewhere but i don't know what it was

[zMuffinMan]

oh, hey, deadline is in 4 days and i think i'd rather lynch not_mafia than most of the other options on the table

hard to do much though given the sheer lack of anyone giving a shit about this game. fun times

[zMuffinMan]

MathDino is not scum. Scum does not get an investigative inventor enabler and then give it to Town.

this is not true. ive only seen a scum inventor once and this happened (though it was compulsive - we had to give an invention to town - we chose the weak investigative one partially for this reason and partially because we knew how the person we gave it to would use it)

but hes probably town anyway so it doesnt matter. id be extremely wary of clearing people for role reasons in this game though

[zMuffinMan]

Dude my role makes even less sense as scum

if you think 'role is town' with no context makes sense, then you probably shouldn't be doing setup spec

if you think it makes no sense within the context of this game, then i'd argue that you're probably right (because i don't really think you or mathdino is scum here) but that i sincerely doubt scum have no town-looking roles so be wary of clearing people on a role basis alone

[zMuffinMan]

like you've played enough games that you should have seen or at least heard of stuff like 'mafia cop' and other roles of a similar nature

and in a game with at least one wildly antitown role

(#subtlyimplyingimtown)

and a flipped pro-scum role (mason cop), i'd say hedging your bets on "x role is town because scum wouldn't have it" is a not-so-smart thing to do

just a point of caution when considering claims in general here

[zMuffinMan]

i think i did well for the first 4200 posts of the game. i might have slipped off a bit later

[zMuffinMan]

tbh i really just want people, in their next post, to talk about why they're voting whoever they're currently voting and what other options they're willing to consider today

i want to lynch not_mafia today because his slot has the worst interactions with kokichi (IMO) and i can see far more interactions from other people that i think are more likely to be scum talking with town (posts that made me feel this way can be found in 4258)

if i can't make not_mafia happen, i could vote LLD, but that's not so much an "i think she's scum" thing as an "i see better reasons to think other people are town"

that said, while i was on the plane yesterday with nothing else to do, i started thinking maybe i was reading some interactions incorrectly so i wanted to go back and look at them properly at some point. if anyone else has an opinion on kokichi interactions, go ahead and say what you think or point me to where you've already talked about it

[zMuffinMan]

i guess lovebird is also an option i'd consider but i haven't seen much in the way of support for that one and, like with LLD, i don't have anything here other than "kokichi said literally nothing about him"

[zMuffinMan]

if it helps in some way, sure?

do what your heart tells you to do

[zMuffinMan]

Tfw the people defending me also won't do this work because they're already townreading me but for difficult to argue reasons

my reason is pretty simple; your predecessor wasn't scum with kokichi

i don't need to do additional work

[zMuffinMan]

Like there's no dialogue to get mastina and mathblade off my case

i'm ignoring one (i don't see much in the way of fruitful conversation that can be had with someone who thinks like that, in all honesty) and the other appears to have (mostly) checked out of the game (which is disappointing, but i can't do much about)

(and i'm not really defending you - if your lynch were imminent, maybe i'd be vocal about stopping it, but it isn't, so i'm not going to flood the game with more of the same opinion about it than i already have when it really doesn't matter at the moment)

i just want to lynch who i want to lynch or have people tell me why a better lynch should happen

[zMuffinMan]

also we have a new overlord now, so i think abandoning is off the table anyway

[zMuffinMan]

ill be honest, i have the same amount of interest in defending you from onthemark as i have in trying to convince onthemark that he's wrong about me

that amount of interest is zero

if i were you, i'd stop trying to convince him he's wrong - it's not worth the time and effort (this isn't a disparaging comment towards onthemark in particular; i just feel this way about people who do silly tunnels in general)

instead, invest your time in the game in worthwhile things like getting whoever you think is scum lynched. one or two people scum-reading you only matters when those one or two people can get you lynched

repeating "read my games" isn't helpful anyway

[zMuffinMan]

right, which is why i said that people should explain why they're voting who they're voting (i.e. give a compelling reason their vote is better than others) and say who they're willing to compromise on

[zMuffinMan]

Have I answered sufficiently or do you have further questions

well, i don't really think the reasoning you gave for voting nahdia is particularly strong (the mason thing) but i'm inferring that you're working on a POE basis so i don't have much to say about that

i'm more interested in hearing where other people are willing to vote now and why

you're about the only person who i've seen actually give reasons (other than mastina who isn't really here)

[zMuffinMan]

i don't think that was LLD hinting at a guilty, if that's what people are thinking that was

i'm not sure getting back to odds is important enough to lynch lovers today actually

though whoever did that action is probably scum

is there a list of who's claimed what actions last night and what's been confirmed?

[zMuffinMan]

i would really like a mass-claim now (given most aspects of people's roles have been claimed anyway, i'm not sure it gives much additional information and while i'm not expecting the game to be broken or anything, i think things will be a lot clearer if everything is on the table) but with 4 days to the deadline and activity being what it is, i'm not sure how feasible it is today or even if it's worthwhile attempting it

[zMuffinMan]

even if we don't mass claim, i just want to know what's already on the table (though i feel like i'm beating a dead horse here)

i'm confirmed not loveriser for obvious reasons (i assume mastina confirmed the loudness on receiving my predecessor's message)

mathdino/pine i'm not sure how the actions work with their roles but i assume that's basically confirmed not loveriser

whoever the vig is is confirmed not loveriser

and whoever can confirm any other actions is confirmed not loveriser

who's left?

[zMuffinMan]

im just going to give nico a pass for that as well then

so the loveriser is in LLD, not_mafia, nahdia, lovebird

(i think it's not_mafia himself actually tbh)

do any of these have any confirmed actions last night?

[zMuffinMan]

i sincerely doubt the loveriser is town (unless it was a compulsive action, in which case it should have been claimed)

[zMuffinMan]

realistically speaking, what scum team here (apart from one that hasn't read the game) do you think hasn't already picked up on it if it came from a town player? and what scum team do you imagine can't just scour the thread for it if they really want to find it?

if it's already out there, then just talk about it. stop thinking you know better than everyone else. if you don't talk about it, i'll just read the game myself, find it and then talk about it for the rest of the day anyway but i'd rather you just save me the effort, thanks

[zMuffinMan]

could have just saved me the fucking trouble

viewtopic.php?p=10204481#p10204481

lovebird,

why those two? and was it compulsive?

[zMuffinMan]

lovebird outed it herself

if you think scum didn't pick up on that when they were reading through, then i don't know what to say to you

besides, i've already made my thoughts on a mass-claim today clear and anyone who's ever played with me before should know how i feel about role information being public; i could argue the theory behind why early(ish) mass claims are good for the game in general, but most people have close-minded set-in-stone ideas that claiming role information is bad and don't seem likely to change their minds so i never bother

[zMuffinMan]

you both knew you were loverised, right? skimmed not_mafia's ISO and can't even find a hint of him reacting to it

(he's probably scum and probably not with lovebird, but i still want to know why lovebird did what she did)

[zMuffinMan]

ok. im fine with that and after not_mafia's recent posts im fine with ending day whenever

anyone who needs to do something before day ends should do it sooner rather than later

[zMuffinMan]

actually

Unvote

hes prob gonna self-hammer at L-1 so get done what needs to be done now

[zMuffinMan]

let LLD do whatever she's been hinting at doing before putting not_mafia to L-1, please (and i guess let everyone else chime in and do or say whatever they want to do or say before day ends)

[zMuffinMan]

one day soon, LLD will come back to this game and do something amazing

hopefully

[zMuffinMan]

V

o

t

e

:

N

o

t

_

M

a

f

i

a

[zMuffinMan]

no

[zMuffinMan]

that wasn't a lynch fwiw, just L-1 by my count

[zMuffinMan]

people aren't gonna stop shouting that N_M is scum

i don't think anyone has been shouting that he's scum

i think his posts after the wagon on him started developing are a good indication that he's scum, though

i'm also not sure he'd self-hammer after i specifically pointed out that he might

realistically, i want to see his flip so i can move on. if he's scum, yay. if he's not, it means i'll probably actually have to read parts of the game and figure things out, which i won't be looking forward to

[zMuffinMan]

can anyone point to not_mafia playing like this as town about to be lynched?

can anyone point to any games where not_mafia has been in a similar situation as scum?

[zMuffinMan]

do you normally self-hammer as scum? point me to times you have, if so

[zMuffinMan]

right. which is why i thought he might self-hammer before LLD did her thing but afterwards not so much (and especially so because he might think not doing it makes him seem more town after i suggested he might try to do it)

so i don't really care much that he didn't do it

i think his general play after he started getting wagoned is more likely to come from scum and, well, even if he isn't scum, i don't really have any qualms with lynching play like that

[zMuffinMan]

yes, i know... that was my point...

anyway, i just want to lynch not_mafia, see the flip and move on one way or another

[zMuffinMan]

actually, hold on, sorry

Unvote

is the lover thing permanent? (if pine or not_mafia knows, they can answer; if not, i want to hear this from lovebird)

if it's not permanent it might be worthwhile lynching elsewhere today and settling not_mafia some other day

[zMuffinMan]

ive seen temporary cupids before (e.g. lasts only a single day/night cycle) and other roles of a similar nature that are temporary

can't be bothered digging to find the games though

just want confirmation because, well, does anyone really think pine is scum here?

and also if it's permanent and it's not 1-shot, i don't want lovebird using it anymore

[zMuffinMan]

what is not_mafia's role, btw? since he's leaving it up to you to claim for him apparently

[zMuffinMan]

yeah, but i doubt pine's scum, so there's that

also pretty sure a scone could feed far more than two birds

[zMuffinMan]

oh. just realised that you're probably the most likely candidate to get lynched if they don't, so i guess you'd prefer that over your own lynch

well, i'm not sure who i'd actually want to lynch today if not not_mafia, but i think i'd prefer not lynching the half of that lover pair that is pretty obviously not scum (if possible)

even though we're at evens and lynching to get back to odds isn't such a bad idea, really

going for a walk, i'll think about it while i do

[zMuffinMan]

how has LLD been improving in your eyes?

[zMuffinMan]

err, maybe in a different game, but in a game like this, id fully expect her to be saying the things about her role that shes currently saying

trying to make it seem like your role is town and youre using it in a protown way is exactly what scum should do. i would, at least, if i were scum in her shoes

it's why im willing to let her do what shes hinting at doing but i dont think it means anything about her alignment

[zMuffinMan]

tbh if not_mafia is town, it means i went really wrong somewhere in reading interactions, but i think that's pretty much got to be the case anyway since im currently thinking not_mafia is unlikely to be scum with either lovebird or LLD

so i probably need to sit down and do some reading at some point

*shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

how feasible is a lovebird-LLD team?

[zMuffinMan]

I don’t know what NM’s role is, that’s not how lovers work

4542 was directed at LLD (who got told his role)

but yeah, i figured as much with regards to what you were told, which is why i figured lovebird would need to clarify

anywho i doubt it's temporary or it probably would have been mentioned by lovebird already so i'm not getting my hopes up at that

but...

i wonder how angry LLD would get if i said i'm now strongly considering lynching lovebird instead of not_mafia?

[zMuffinMan]

hmm. maybe not lovebird actually. could be scum but eh, the cupid thing as at least consistent with her play and reads and im not sure scum-who-loverised-town-players acts like she's been acting around it (or even chooses those targets because wow that's a waste of an overpowered scum role). kind of iffy about the fact that she used it when it wasn't even compulsive, though

dunno

will most likely just end up on not_mafia today and i should stop thinking about it

[zMuffinMan]

if it doesn't specify a time frame, then it's permanent prob

i dont really understand why youd use your role on people in a "poe pool" the more i think about it, though. making two people lovers is the sort of thing id only do in exceptional circumstances by choice - in 99% of cases, it's just antitown

it's different from a vig shot because they aren't actually dead yet (well, that's obvious, but my point is that we either have to lynch both of them or scum has to kill them and scum aren't going to do you that favour if there's scum in the two of them, plus if they're both town, you just make scum's job easier)

not to mention, without the vig shot, lovers being lynched would have put us at evens

meh, there's a whole range of reasons cupid roles suck (for town, at least) and should never be used (imo) but what's done is done

[zMuffinMan]

a number of roles in this game are ones that shouldn't be used - though the others seem to be compulsory or passive (or voluntary in the case of the scum lightning rod, which is why i think yours is interesting)

in any case, assuming we lynch not_mafia today, don't use it again (imo)

[zMuffinMan]

how viable is a nahdia+LLD team?

[zMuffinMan]

if mastina is giving a free pass to nico with a fake mason claim, i will be disappointed

[zMuffinMan]

i think you have the accuracy of a drunk monkey shooting a gun with its feet

[zMuffinMan]

ok

so cheeky wasn't scum with kokichi - that i'm pretty sure about. the posts i've read from mathdino haven't bothered me either. pretty sure he's town

pine is also town, unless you think he's suicidal (and he's pretty likely to be lynched today via not_mafia anyway). he's also town via kokichi

mastina is probably town and giving nico a free pass so i'm ignoring that

kokichi probably wasn't scum with wisdom, so i'm putting OTM aside (despite his reads being virtually the opposite of my own)

which leaves LLD, lovebird, nahdia, not_mafia

i'm willing to leave LLD alone for today because of whatever she's hinting at with her role, even though i think there's a decent chance she might actually be scum. i figure that can be dealt with tomorrow

nahdia and lovebird are not scum together (probably). lovebird and not_mafia are not scum together (probably). LLD and not_mafia are not scum together (probably)

this is basically where i'm at right now

and i'm starting to get cold feet about lynching not_mafia because the only really viable team i see is nahdia+not_mafia (unless i'm wrong about someone else) and i'm not sure this is all that likely atm

[zMuffinMan]

probably everyone around the drunk monkey when it's ready to take it's next shot and wildly swinging the gun away from the bullseye

[zMuffinMan]

If I have hit both scum there is no third shot.

oh, you're referring to your current reads

i thought you meant being right about two previous reads or something (thus the response)

in that case, you're just dead wrong

[zMuffinMan]

also, no, stop suggesting lovebird uses the lover thing again. there is LITERALLY no reason to use it

if you think ANY pair of people is scum, then get them lynched when we're at odds

using the lover role again is essentially betting the game on any given pair being scum because of the numbers

stop suggesting stupid ideas

[zMuffinMan]

yes, i do, if she thinks the enabler thing makes you town (which was what i've been thinking might be the case but seeing as it isn't all that likely that mastina is going to avoid being NKed before lylo, i don't care to delve into it atm)

[zMuffinMan]

tbh, if people are stupid enough to follow you and lynch me, i wouldn't even care

i'd prefer not giving a shit about this game anymore with the quality of play from certain people

[zMuffinMan]

actually, on thinking about it, i don't really care enough about this game to play it out

there are too many people here who either aren't really playing or are playing in such a way that it's not worth the effort to try to argue with them

this game is a good reminder of why i stopped playing in the first place

@Mod, please replace me

[zMuffinMan]

never mind, i'll just play out the day and if i don't get lynched, i'll replace out overnight

[zMuffinMan]

you have no clue how to play mafia. don't talk to me

[zMuffinMan]

what a dumb question

[zMuffinMan]

tbh i'm not surprised you think your scum game is """good"""

for example, people don't even bat an eyelid at how ass-backwards your reads are because they have zero expectations of you doing any better

when you play to scum's win-con as town, people aren't going to know whether or not you're legitimately doing it as scum for a change

[zMuffinMan]

muffin rescinded the flipless and then said he was later

lol. you and pine are so clueless

[zMuffinMan]

"if"

[zMuffinMan]

Vote: LLD

[zMuffinMan]

ill hammer anything that hits L-1

[zMuffinMan]

there is no guilty on not_mafia

[zMuffinMan]

lol

i'm pretty sure mathdino is the only competent player who's actually town and gives a shit about winning atm

i feel sorry for him

[zMuffinMan]

Hey guess what

Being an asshole to people who are trying

Isn't helpful

oh yeah, sorry, i was clearly trying to be helpful. i'm not sure where i went wrong exactly, but thanks for the fucking tip. wouldn't have figured it out if you didn't tell me

btw, none of what i said was untrue, even if you think it's a mean thing to say

honestly, i wouldn't even care that you think i'm scum if your logic wasn't '1+1=5' bad

and the fact that chucklefuck mathblade thinks a. he's a good enough player to catch me as scum (rofl no), or b. that his "reaction test" stupidity was a good way to catch scum at all (or that i fell for it) is amusing to me. if you want to talk about insults, it's a fucking insult to think that sort of thing could ever catch even semi-competent scum. the only players it would ever catch out as scum are those on the level of mathblade (who im not surprised actually has fallen for something that idiotic)

you're probably going to forget this in post-game. you're probably going to forget that you actually believed that i messed up anything and that you thought i wasn't clearly mocking that dumbass question he asked me. all you're going to remember is that i "trolled" and that i was mean and you'll think it was actually my fault you couldn't see past your own incompetence

so whatever... i'm not interested in being civil in this game. if you're stupid enough to lynch a flipless player before lylo, town deserves to lose this. i'll be rooting for scum and probably only loosely pay attention to you guys failing to do anything right

im done with this now. mafia is only fun when you're playing with people who actually know how to play the game. players like you and mathblade don't fit that description

nothing personal against you. you seem like a nice enough guy. but being nice doesn't translate to in-game skill, which is unfortunate

[zMuffinMan]

in this game? i'd say you're competent but i don't think you're town. i'd say mastina is generally competent, but isn't even in this game. i don't really know nahdia or lovebird or anyone like that well enough to make a judgment there, but they're barely in the game from what i've read. ergo, the statement that mathdino is the only competent town player who still gives a shit

there are a whole bunch of different ways in which i might think of a player as competent or incompetent, but as a general rule, if you read this post and had the following thought...

He already claimed counter to it

... then you're not competent

[zMuffinMan]

@LLD obv

[zMuffinMan]

I'd be concerned about Jester, but Momo wasn't playing the Jester's game, and this smells like a scheme to weasel out of Momo's claim with a Rolecop on the table, while also trying to avoid lynch.

or this thought

[zMuffinMan]

the slot NOT being a janitor

what do you mean the slot not being a janitor?

or thinking this question is or thinking this question is me being confused about the mention of "janitor" rather than me being confused about where he got the idea that i'm not one

[zMuffinMan]

Janitored* whatever

Momo claimed on page 1 that he was a self-janitor

Thanks for telling him Pine /sarcasm

I was trying to get other people to see that. Rather than outright state it and get reactions damn it.

or if you think someone would replace in, be asked to verify

what their predecessor claimed

and then not even see the very first post their predecessor made before answering the question

[zMuffinMan]

or if you think the question he asked in general is a good way to find scum that has played more than one or two games of mafia

Yes. That’s why you see how far he’s take it.

We could have found the other scum or eliminated some people as partners the more we played stupid.

or if you think this is genuinely a thing that could have happened

[zMuffinMan]

or if you think we should lynch lovers then, regardless of their flips, use the role AGAIN on two people when there'd likely be 7 players alive tomorrow

ffs Can we please just fucking lynch Not_Mafia.

He's scum, ok?

He's fucking scum.

Ugggggh.

Not I *really* want to lynch N_M, because I'm not so tunneled I can't read between the lines.

The problem is that I serve a Town-critical function N2, and I'm Loverized with him.

or if you think this was LLD softing a guilty even though she later says she's fine with lynching anyone in the group of 4 she mentioned (not something someone with a guilty says)

[zMuffinMan]

If you are town, assume I'm town and start parsing reads from there for now. I need your help to sort this game, because my "caring" is at peak lows.

so is mine, if you couldn't tell. sorry

i'm only still in this game because chamber said to wait until the day ends before replacing out

i'd like to believe you're town, but it's pretty hard given there aren't many people who make sense as scum if you happen to be town

[zMuffinMan]

like if not_mafia is scum, then i'd think you're town

but the only person i really see making _some_ sense as a not_mafia partner is nahdia and i don't think that's the team

though you're free to tell me why i'm wrong

[zMuffinMan]

actually i wouldn't be certain you're town if not_mafia is scum, but it would go a long way towards seeing it as a possibility

[zMuffinMan]

oh and i started having second thoughts about not_mafia because there was very little survivalism in his posts, too

not sure if that necessarily means anything though, but he either doesn't care that he's about to be lynched or he's town and i guess the former is a possibility if he sees no way to stop it and has given up OR he's trying to give off the appearance he doesn't care as a sort of next-level-mind-game thing but i don't currently think that's what he was going for

[zMuffinMan]

MathDino is not scum. Scum does not get an investigative inventor enabler and then give it to Town.

this line of reasoning is also one that doesn't come from a competent player (he happens to be right here, but being right for the wrong reasons is hardly commendable)

[zMuffinMan]

Why

WHY

Do you out Town roles like that?

oh yeah, he's worried about me "outing" a loveriser who already outed herself publicly in such a way that someone who hasn't even read the game (me) could find it with very little searching

and he's worried about it because... why? scum might have killed her if they didn't know her role? unlikely. scum might want to kill her because they know her role? unlikely

and he thinks i'm scum all the while

really, come on...

this is not the thought process of a competent player

[zMuffinMan]

We've got the NM guilty. Can we lynch Muffin tonight, use my inventor power, then NM/me tomorrow?

oh yeah, the straw that broke the camel's back before the vitriolic comment(s)

he legitimately thinks you have a guilty, but he wants to lynch a claimed flipless player first because why? he thinks that player is scum? then why would order matter? either i'm scum and the game would end with our consecutive lynches (from his POV, with the "guilty") or i'm town and this wastes at least a day

and this is all just stuff after i replaced in; i hate to imagine what was posted beforehand

anyway, done with my tirade, which i only really went on because he seems to legitimately think it has to do with "disagreeing" with me

[zMuffinMan]

pine thinks 4449 was LLD softing a guilty on you (conveniently, she appears to have been voting you at the end of D1 so i could see where he might have got the idea from if he is making certain assumptions about her role)

that said, i think if she did have a guilty, she wouldn't have said certain things about being fine with lynching other players, for example. so i think it's pretty obviously not the case. but hey, LLD should confirm that herself

[zMuffinMan]

if anything i said was untrue, point me to it and ill gladly retract it and apologise

[zMuffinMan]

i didnt say anything personal about you. i questioned your competence at mafia multiple times. justifiably so (imo) given i can point to multiple instances of things i'm talking about

i never personally attacked you

[zMuffinMan]

Lines were crossed.

you know what? i will say i'm legitimately sorry. i've been reminded that you're a new parent and probably aren't having the easiest time IRL anyway

so

sorry

but i'll try to explain where i'm coming from. i'm not trying to make excuses. i'm just helping you to understand my mindset

Spoiler:

the number one thing i hate coming from anyone in a game is a veiled i-know-better-than-you attitude and when you posted 4644 in response to me pointing out there isn't a guilty (which there isn't, but LLD should confirm this anyway so there's no confusion), i responded by questioning your competence. from my POV, it was the latest in a long series of things you've done in this game that were bugging me (the rest of which should be clear by now)

when i insult a player in game, it's strictly to do with their play. i don't make character judgements and none of my insults are actually personal. i will call something in game stupid if i think it's stupid. i will tell someone i think they're bad at mafia if i see things that i think are a good indication that they're bad at mafia. none of this relates to how i feel about a person personally (and, frankly, i don't have any issues with you, even if you dislike my play or think i've been an asshole here)

i try not to initiate things like this for no reason. at least from my perspective. i entered the game with no ill intent. but after seeing mathblade's "reaction test" (which i honestly think will never catch any decent scum player so is utterly pointless and adds nothing to the game over just asking them to confirm public information) and seeing that he wouldn't drop it (even though i asked him to), i got fed up and decided to openly mock him for it by claiming everything but my role. what left me surprised is that you actually thought that was me seriously denying the role. and then you said that i denied the role and i asked a question to clarify what you meant and you took that as a sign that i was confused about the self-janitor thing and therefore lying. i was confused why anyone would think that i had denied it. i didn't. i said "flipless miller" is not my fake-claim and refused to answer what i thought was a dumb question because mathblade needlessly added the "miller" part and i didn't think it warranted a serious response. that will never catch scum. ever. any scum who gets asked to claim immediately after replacing in is going to read their predecessor's ISO. that will never catch anyone ever unless they're just really new at the game or something... so when you took what i thought was obviously said in jest seriously, i probably started making it clear that i didn't have a positive opinion of what you were doing. i'm not going to say it was a good thing or that i should have done it; i am just someone who has a low tolerance level for things i deem bad play and that probably surfaces a lot more than i'd like it to

i probably should have just played it straight and answered the question. but what i said about it (that i think it's insulting to actually think that could catch anyone) is true and i have zero respect for anyone as a player who thinks that sort of thing would work, let alone on seasoned scum. there was no fucking reason whatsoever to add the "miller" part to the question. that's what i took issue with and that's why i never gave him a serious response after i asked him to drop it

still, i tried to ignore that and get into the game (which wasn't helped by the fact that any time i asked people for reads and explanations, or claims, or anything like that, i was met with silence apart from a couple players). and i wasn't trying to start any fights. but every time that whole "caught in a lie" thing was brought up, my attitude about it probably became readily apparent (until i just couldn't be bothered dealing with it anymore and asked the mod to replace out). and i probably should have just refused chamber's request to stay in the game. i didn't want to play because i figured i'd act like this if i kept reading more of the same "caught in a lie" crap. and the fact that you think i said that because you disagreed with me just added more fuel to the fire that was already lit in me

you probably don't see eye to eye with me on what constitutes an insult and maybe you think i crossed some line even prior to recent posts. you probably don't think that what you said to me in 4644 was bad in any way or that your general attitude towards things i've been saying in this game has been bugging me. that's fine. i expect a lot of players will probably agree with you and disagree with my philosophy. i'm just letting you know how i think and why i draw a distinct line between game-related content and actual personal attacks and why i took issue with certain things that you've said in this game and thus responded with what i thought was an appropriate response to what i perceived as veiled condescension. i certainly could have handled things better than i did in this game, though. but i genuinely did not come into this trying to start shit

if you feel i went overboard, then sorry. i get carried away sometimes. it's easy for me to differentiate attacks on play or how someone plays the game and attacks on a person, but i can understand the idea that you might take issue with, for example, me calling you 'stupid' for wanting to lynch a flipless player. i didn't mean that you're a stupid person in general; i was strictly referring to the play. i do think that's just bad play, even if for some reason you think i'm lying (and i honestly don't know why anyone would assume my predecessors would do that, even if they were scum) and i'm generally not one to shy away from being explicit over using euphemisms (so i tend to say something is stupid over calling it something like 'not ideal'). but i'll probably just try to avoid talking about things like that in future altogether instead of calling it stupid. though it's probably going to be a conscious effort and i don't expect i'll be able to hold back altogether

and i am genuinely sorry that i've made the game less fun for you (most of the stuff i say is spur-of-the-moment stuff that shouldn't be taken seriously and i have a tendency to not put much forethought into how negative things i say might affect enjoyment, even though that might not make much sense). hopefully this gives you at least a little insight into where my posts come from and why i thought i was just responding in kind, even if you didn't perceive it that way and why i wasn't actually trying to make it personal

anyway, this is probably a bunch of rambling since i was just writing out thoughts as they came to me, but i will make an active effort to refrain from doing the sorts of things i've done in this game from now on

[zMuffinMan]

sure

though fwiw, what happened was i got home from work, took a nap because i needed one, woke up, saw you suggesting that what i said was simply because you disagreed with me (which just wasnt true), then went on a rant

for me, that

was

all an in-the-moment reaction (or felt like it) though it ended up spanning about 40 minutes because i was responding to LLD, reading things (which happened to involve posts from you), remembering i was pissed off and coming back to it

also i wasnt saying you crossed a line, per se. nothing is sacred or off limits to me but i tend to respond to what i perceive as a negative attitude with a negative attitude in turn

[zMuffinMan]

ill be around~ish

deadline falls around 8am my time, which is around when i start work

getting ready atm. say whatever you want to say now and ill hammer on the way to work prob

[zMuffinMan]

Vote: Not_Mafia