Mini Theme 2083 - Vengeful Ghosts Endgame
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Pine In Your Head
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Pine In Your Head
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My vote just became real.
We're breaking up as friends over this game.
[/hate]"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
Act 3, Scene 1 ofJulius Caesar, by W. Shakespeare-
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Pine In Your Head
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Eh, I used to be tryhard as either alignment, but I’m old and regardless of alignment I usually coast through D1 until the gamestate settles a bit. I loathe the early frenzy, and really like the midgame.In post 115, Dannflor wrote:I haven’t played with Pine before, does he usually try to have more of a presence early as scum?
The Binary Star TR on my RVS banter with Chickadee is strange. It deserves some pressure.
VOTE: Binary Star"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
Act 3, Scene 1 ofJulius Caesar, by W. Shakespeare-
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Pine In Your Head
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Pine In Your Head
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Shit does that make me scum?In post 119, Arkham Asylum wrote:
Very towny postIn post 118, Pine wrote:Here’s how you know if I’m scum: if I look Towny, be suspicious.
-The Joker
Halp"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
Act 3, Scene 1 ofJulius Caesar, by W. Shakespeare-
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@Flavor Leaf: you’re striking me as Town. I can get behind the gut notion that one of the hydrae are scum. Hard to put my finger on it, something to do with all flash/no substance or distracting control of the conversation without real content. Which it occurs to me are essentially two ways of saying the same thing, by YMMV"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
Act 3, Scene 1 ofJulius Caesar, by W. Shakespeare-
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A) No, and don’t put words in my mouth please and thank you.In post 138, Arkham Asylum wrote:
So you believe we made the decision to shitpost and meme *after* reading a scum role PM, and not something we'd do anyway when we formed the hydra?In post 134, Pine wrote:Hard to put my finger on it, something to do with all flash/no substance or distracting control of the conversation without real content.
You've not had this feeling till FL made that post?
-The Joker
And B) Just because FL said something which made sense and I decided to agree with him doesn’t invalidate either opinion."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
Act 3, Scene 1 ofJulius Caesar, by W. Shakespeare-
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As a rule, if you're going to do something as scum, do it as Town. There are behaviors you can do as Town which you wouldn't as scum, but not the other way around.In post 213, Chemist1422 wrote:In post 198, Dannflor wrote:
I know FL is a fearless playerIn post 168, Flavor Leaf wrote:Debby doggie dog, claim Not VT for me
but does scum!him actually role fish so blatantlyWould he do it as town though?
FL is pro enough to know this."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
Act 3, Scene 1 ofJulius Caesar, by W. Shakespeare-
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Pine In Your Head
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Pine In Your Head
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Awww, Chickadee...are you actually scum here? This martyred attitude does not match Townadee.In post 247, Chickadee wrote:If I die today, pay attention to all the flimsy jumps on this wagon."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
Act 3, Scene 1 ofJulius Caesar, by W. Shakespeare-
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OkIn post 255, Chickadee wrote:
No, I'm not.In post 251, Pine wrote:
Awww, Chickadee...are you actually scum here? This martyred attitude does not match Townadee.In post 247, Chickadee wrote:If I die today, pay attention to all the flimsy jumps on this wagon.
Just ~reasons~
I trust you fren"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Pine In Your Head
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In post 356, Dannflor wrote:In post 242, Pine wrote:Noooo Chickadeeeee
These are really weird and really weirdly timed postsIn post 244, Egix96 wrote:inb4 Chickadee is 3*Hated
How so? They're pretty transparently flippant sarcasm."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
Act 3, Scene 1 ofJulius Caesar, by W. Shakespeare-
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Except not only did I not join the wagon, I later did a gut check on her and declared a TR on her. It helps to consider the whole context before making broad and flexible statements like "this is weird."In post 363, Dannflor wrote:No, they are
The timing of the pop ins themselves just feel weird instead of like, actually hopping on the wagon
It just feels like a way to blend into the rapid wagon building without actually contributing or doing anything
I tend to coast D1 if nothing catches my eye. Nothing really has yet. I tend to play the midgame."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
Act 3, Scene 1 ofJulius Caesar, by W. Shakespeare-
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Yeah, this post pings me. That long post was one of the only things I've liked out of AA, and your objection is "too much content?"In post 370, Dr Easy Bake wrote:That big ass Arkham post is way too long, scummy vibes from long posts for sure."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
Act 3, Scene 1 ofJulius Caesar, by W. Shakespeare-
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Fair enough. This is why I like to do stream-of-consciousness catchups in a single post, rather than the Creature style. Lets you see the whole picture.In post 373, Dannflor wrote:
I did find your later posts considering the wagon better than I found your earlier postsIn post 369, Pine wrote:Except not only did I not join the wagon, I later did a gut check on her and declared a TR on her. It helps to consider the whole context before making broad and flexible statements like "this is weird."
That was just my gut reaction to seeing those posts upon catching upLast edited by Jingle on Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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I feel like I (regrettably) picked up a towntell from Arkham.
Also, the hydra dissonance from Binary Star comes off as contrived. That comment about “we have a stated TR and I want to be concordant” especially set off alarm bells. If you have a disagreement, you either figure it out in your PT or you outright state “we don’t agree on this.” Binary Star is hedging their bets depending on how things go.
Keeping my BS vote.
I agree with rising suspicion of DEB, but having a hard time pinpointing the problem. Tonal, maybe? Overall tactical impression? Dunno."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
Act 3, Scene 1 ofJulius Caesar, by W. Shakespeare-
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Well shit, my new post was poorly-timed.In post 421, Arkham Asylum wrote:
Read Pine's ISO, temme what you think.In post 418, Chemist1422 wrote:I think whoever said second that the big hydras had a scum is probably a wolf here
-TJ
I was probably the second one on, but never committed to it. Besides, the scum!hydra looks like BS now anyway.Last edited by Jingle on Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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It's because you're leaving a shit ton of posts in between. You can probably go through anyone's ISO and cherry-pick two posts to make that argument.In post 428, Chemist1422 wrote:In post 251, Pine wrote:
Awww, Chickadee...are you actually scum here? This martyred attitude does not match Townadee.In post 247, Chickadee wrote:If I die today, pay attention to all the flimsy jumps on this wagon.
I don't really like the overall disconnect between these two posts.In post 334, Pine wrote:The Chickadee wagon is suspicious as fuck."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
Act 3, Scene 1 ofJulius Caesar, by W. Shakespeare-
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In post 22, Pine wrote:My vote just became real.
We're breaking up as friends over this game.
[/hate]In post 117, Pine wrote:
Eh, I used to be tryhard as either alignment, but I’m old and regardless of alignment I usually coast through D1 until the gamestate settles a bit. I loathe the early frenzy, and really like the midgame.In post 115, Dannflor wrote:I haven’t played with Pine before, does he usually try to have more of a presence early as scum?
The Binary Star TR on my RVS banter with Chickadee is strange. It deserves some pressure.
VOTE: Binary StarIn post 242, Pine wrote:Noooo ChickadeeeeeIn post 251, Pine wrote:
Awww, Chickadee...are you actually scum here? This martyred attitude does not match Townadee.In post 247, Chickadee wrote:If I die today, pay attention to all the flimsy jumps on this wagon.In post 293, Pine wrote:
OkIn post 255, Chickadee wrote:
No, I'm not.In post 251, Pine wrote:
Awww, Chickadee...are you actually scum here? This martyred attitude does not match Townadee.In post 247, Chickadee wrote:If I die today, pay attention to all the flimsy jumps on this wagon.
Just ~reasons~
I trust you fren
Actual progression of my modest TR on Chickadee.In post 334, Pine wrote:The Chickadee wagon is suspicious as fuck.
Seriously, if you're going to frame me, make it harder to rebut."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
Act 3, Scene 1 ofJulius Caesar, by W. Shakespeare-
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Pine In Your Head
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Pine In Your Head
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Pine In Your Head
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Hard to do without you identifying which posts you're referring to, but I can do a general ISO dive to explore my new read on DEB.In post 429, Arkham Asylum wrote:
He had around 3 serious posts amongst a ton of other fluff posts. We thought the serious posts were scummy, and his rebuttal was a non-answer (jokingly?) lying that they were fluff too.In post 423, Pine wrote:I agree with rising suspicion of DEB, but having a hard time pinpointing the problem. Tonal, maybe? Overall tactical impression? Dunno.
Can you look over at just those posts in context and tell me what you think? I'm on mobile, else would've quoted them myself.
-TJ"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Planning RVS is hella scummy.In post 23, Dr Easy Bake wrote:
I mean I didn’t copy you. I planned my RVS once I saw the player list. Didn’t read your reasoning till you just mentioned it.In post 21, Chemist1422 wrote:I have a bad snap wolfread on Easy Bake for copying my RVS reasoning
I think you’re the one copying me by way of time travel! So you should already know my alignment!
This comes off as self-serving and a fluffy reason to slime his way onto the Chickadee wagon.In post 246, Dr Easy Bake wrote:
I’m really not digging the ‘tude you’ve got going here VOTE: ChickadeeIn post 243, Chickadee wrote:I'm not. You're all fools.
But I would not mind having to not deal with the gimmick posting so much.
This was the first thing that actually vibed me about DEB.In post 370, Dr Easy Bake wrote:That big ass Arkham post is way too long, scummy vibes from long posts for sure.
Also, the ISO in general makes me want to consider a policy lynch, but for-reals PLs are so 2013.
PE: Yeah, BuJ, I'm already done"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Pine In Your Head
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Disagree, I think?In post 467, Chickadee wrote:AA - can you guys keep chatter between each other in your PT?
Having some insight into internal deliberations informs my read on them."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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That is not what was said. Mischaracterizing my reasoning like that is pretty much guaranteed to turn my weak SR on you into a full, raging murderlynch boner. I detest dishonest arguments.In post 471, Dr Easy Bake wrote:
I haven’t really seen any reasoning otherwise. People want to policy lynch me lolIn post 470, Dannflor wrote:
Why do you reckon play style is the only reason people are suspicious of you?In post 466, Dr Easy Bake wrote:Y’all are way too paranoid about my playstyle. Sorry only one of you knows what I’m like (possibly more depending on who’s in the hydras) but that doesn’t mean I’m scum. I’m here to have a good time, so that’s what I’m doing."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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That's pretty open-and-shut.In post 492, mastina wrote:
Easy, because I called him scum.In post 58, Dannflor wrote:Why is Pine town?
"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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That's a worthy digression. Arnold's Mr. Freeze was absolutely squandered on that movie.In post 495, mastina wrote:
To be honest.In post 68, Arkham Asylum wrote:
With better writing (and by better writing I don't mean less puns, puns can be rather endearing), a tighter more coherent script less reliant on stupidity and downplaying rather than upplaying the sheer ridiculousness of comic books--with a more proper narrative?
The Mr. Freeze of that movie would be amagnificentvillain. That aesthetic is actually kinda terrifying, and yet actually looks somewhat reasonably plausible. It's the sort of getup that wouldalmostnot be out of place in the Dark Knight trilogy. Almost. (It's a little more "out there" than, sayyy, Bane, but not by much.)
Like, looking at that image, the actual look of it is like a well and true, proper, villain--and the aesthetic of a villain permanently encased in ice pretty much wasmagnificentlycaptured. A villain with that look, making puns, in of itself? Not a bad thing. It would actually be terrifying, and sendchillsdown your spine. A casual, cool, calm, collected, deep, professional, yet cheesy line coming from a smooth-talking villain.
If that's what we got.
Then that film would've been AMAZING.
And if the problem was less "Batman slipping on ice" and more presenting the actual threat he posed.
Then the film would've been great.
You can clearly see the flashes of brilliance in the film, there, it just...wasn't quite...y'know. All...THERE. The writers, the director, the producer, took things in a different direction, ruining what was a really neat concept that could've been killer. (Plus, Mr. Freeze has pretty much always been a tragic villain, and having a tragic villain who still provides a source of actual real conflict, is an actual VILLAIN in spite of the tragedy and can play the part of one? Would've been so nice to see.)
But I digress."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Pine In Your Head
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Pine In Your Head
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Pine In Your Head
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Pine In Your Head
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Pine In Your Head
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Jingle tells me there was a VC error and this is actually L-1. I stand by it.
"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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You know, it’s not the fluff that I find objectionable, it’s that you’re not taking this seriously.
"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Seriously? That's what you want to spend your time talking about?In post 538, Dr Easy Bake wrote:You haven’t answered my question tree baby.
Aside from the fact that it's obvious in context, vote-parking isn't even coded. It's having a vote parked somewhere, and is generally considered unproductive when it isn't accomplishing something.Last edited by Jingle on Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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That is...pretty distinctly not what I said.In post 555, Dr Easy Bake wrote:
Would you like me to be more confrontational?In post 553, Pine wrote:I don't agree. He's not really being confrontational at all, he's being cavalier, barely acknowledging it. There's a significant attitudinal difference.
Town!DEB should be getting proactive, finding someone else scummy, and prosecuting them. Dicking around just looks like you don't care, and are either burden on Town or caught scum who doesn't think they can pull it off, or at least thinks they can bluff their way out of it.
Also, Pinecone is how I refer to my daughter. I am a mighty and powerful pillar of the forest, not a child."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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She's being weird site-wide, afaictIn post 578, CheekyTeeky wrote:Is it just me or is mastina acting weird? Like not scummy but just very outside any meta I'm familiar with.
A) One game is pretty poor evidence for metaIn post 581, CheekyTeeky wrote:
I find this very amusing considering the one game I've played with you.In post 534, Pine wrote:You know, it’s not the fluff that I find objectionable, it’s that you’re not taking this seriously.
B) Which game was that, so I know what you're talking about?
So fakeable.In post 582, CheekyTeeky wrote:
So pure. So towny.In post 551, Chemist1422 wrote:TL;DR don't hammer yet until we get more content out of the slots that haven't given much
I don't have a SR on Chemist, but don't give him credit for something so easily faked."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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These three posts stood out to me as scummy, aside from fluff.In post 438, Pine wrote:
Planning RVS is hella scummy.In post 23, Dr Easy Bake wrote:
I mean I didn’t copy you. I planned my RVS once I saw the player list. Didn’t read your reasoning till you just mentioned it.In post 21, Chemist1422 wrote:I have a bad snap wolfread on Easy Bake for copying my RVS reasoning
I think you’re the one copying me by way of time travel! So you should already know my alignment!
This comes off as self-serving and a fluffy reason to slime his way onto the Chickadee wagon.In post 246, Dr Easy Bake wrote:
I’m really not digging the ‘tude you’ve got going here VOTE: ChickadeeIn post 243, Chickadee wrote:I'm not. You're all fools.
But I would not mind having to not deal with the gimmick posting so much.
This was the first thing that actually vibed me about DEB.In post 370, Dr Easy Bake wrote:That big ass Arkham post is way too long, scummy vibes from long posts for sure.
Also, the ISO in general makes me want to consider a policy lynch, but for-reals PLs are so 2013.
PE: Yeah, BuJ, I'm already done
And what you're calling Townish stubbornness, I'm calling scum bluffing."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Oh fuck, that game.
Umm, two things.
First, Product Placement was rather meme-y. It didn't lend itself to being taken seriously, and IIRC the balance of the players didn't either. This is a more typical game, and most people are taking this seriously. Yes, there's a gimmick, but it's not as meme-y and hasn't actually kicked in yet.
Second, look at the damn page count. I'm an old school player. Five, six, seven years ago, it was rare for a Mini to break 40-50 pages or a Large to break 100. Most were in the 30-40/70-80 range. That's over the course of a whole game. People didn't shitpost nearly as much, and when they did, it was usually a lot funnier. This game is pretty slow and sedate by modern standards, thank Mith. Today's games arehard to read. There are easily 3-4 times as many posts as are actually needed, and most of them are low-content. Gone are the days of thoughtful, considered wallposting. Hell, it's considered a little scummy to do so now, like "what's his angle?" Umm, gamesolving please and thank you. I digress. Where this affects me directly isinterestandeffortlevels.
I am not an early game player, I like the midgame. Once there's a flip or two out there, some wagon analysis to be done, a few claims and maybe a PR result, that's where I shine. I loathe the early game. There are exceptions, where I get a hunch on D1 and hang on tight, but they're less common than a "Can we just get through this" attitude. Even in Product Placement, a meme-y, high traffic game where I wasn't really engaged, I lampshaded what I was doing. I followed along, and I made an effort to care. And when I saw something that I needed to address, I stated an opinion, slapped down a real vote, and did shit. I can't quote it because the thread's locked, but look at this progression of posts. They might be a little cherry-picked to prove my point, but prove it they do. Perhaps not coincidentally, your obvious scumminess was what pulled me into the game (even though I was wrong, and it was TvT. IIRC I eventually realized I was wrong before end of D1, though maybe that's because actual-scum Vecna turned my head.)
In contrast, I see zero evidence of give-a-fuck from DEB. Either he's scum trying to bluff his way past suspicion, or he's an actual detriment to Town. Either way, I'm happy with him as a D1 lynch unless something significant changes the gamestate (like a Vecna or w/e)."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Almost everyone thinks they're the same as Town and scumIn post 608, Flavor Leaf wrote:He *thinks* he acts the same, but there’s differences, like the aggro fluff.
This is just defensive."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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I'm definitely different as scum and Town. The trick is to never do something as scum that you wouldn't plausibly do as Town. The other way around is fine, though. Town meta constrains scum meta, but not vice versa.
I don't think DEB bluffs like this as Town. I think he hears the objections and at least makes a modest good-faith effort to course-correct. His tone is all about, "Shit, how do I get out of this," not "Shit, how do I prove myself?""Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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*shrug*In post 613, Flavor Leaf wrote:Mixed in with him getting ran up early, I think it’s town.
It's really hard to say, especially in a flipless game where the dead can talk. I want to say that the mechanic takes a lot of pressure off of scum - the Town will remain uninformed until endgame. I think that engenders a cavalier attitude."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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DrippingGoofball:Paraphrasing a role PM takes seconds, fabricating a good fakeclaim takes an eternity.
Some of the sagest advice I've ever heard for this game.
And also, come the fuck on. That's at least the second ham-handed PR soft. You can't effectively say "I'm a PR" then tremble over the notion that it'll get you targeted. This is a classic appeal to anxiety."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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And yeah, that's a great way to put it.In post 634, Binary Star wrote:
This.In post 633, Binary Star wrote:Being a huge ponce and galloping around your REALLY COOL ROLE YOU CAN'T CLAIM BECAUSE THEY'LL KILL YOU FOR IT is functionally the same as CLAIMING except it denies town info.
-B
Shit, don't I scumread you? Stop making sense, you'll ruin things."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Pretty much anyone. Not only do I think there's a better than even chance DEB is lying, it may also be a setup for a scum Watcher.In post 646, Dannflor wrote:
Who else would you save?In post 644, Pine wrote:Not sure if DEB is a good save, though.
Further, if the alleged Doctor protects the Doc Enabler in order to keep Doc powers, in order to just use the power on a predictable target...that gets recursive in the first iteration. It essentially neutralizes the Doctor."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Good protects would be the AA hydra, Flavor Leaf, and mastina. All of them, if Town, are likely to be more productive as the game goes on, but may lose interest without an ongoing stake. The same is true for my own motivation, but I doubt I draw the kill."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Look, I warned you against this whole "making sense" thing before. If you make me rethink that scumread any more, it'll really ruin my self-esteem.In post 677, Binary Star wrote:Doctor Enabler is the stupidest terrorist claim I've ever heard.
Don't lynch me guys
I ENABLE THE DOCTOR
Yeah like you won't TRACK ME to any ACTUAL WORTHWHILE RESULTS
bUt I eNaBlE tHe DoCtOr!
Who has EVER, EVER, willingly DESIGNED a game in which there was a DOCTOR ENABLER
And what kind of SADIST would design a NO FLIP GAME with a DOCTOR that needs an ENABLER in it?
Ya'll aren't thinking this through at all.
VOTE: Dr Easy Bake
-White
(But srsly I like your reasoning and you can be Town for now)"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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Actually, scum doctor enabler would be a really cool role.In post 701, Flavor Leaf wrote:Would you rather he claimed scum doctor enabler?
That is however the best reasoning for it that i’ve Seen.
I don’t believe he makes that claim up, though, so regardless of alignment, i feel he is a doctor enabler.
The problem is that the game is flipless - we'll never get any kind of confirmation.In post 709, Arkham Asylum wrote:His slot is self-sorting. We established that the doc doesn't target DEB, so he's a prime target for the NK as town regardless of claim validity.
If scum wants to keep him around as a later day mislynch, and he's saying the truth - at least we had an active doctor till then.
Claiming "town" doctor enabler isn't weird. Move off DEB.
-The Joker"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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I don't agree.
"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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GoodpostingIn post 717, Flavor Leaf wrote:DEB doesnt come up with that here on his own; he’s either true claiming as town, has that role or scum, or somebody coached him into it
Hmmmm also goodposting.In post 719, Binary Star wrote:
Plenty of good reason--DEB was widely scumread enough to be put at L-1. DEB hasn't contributed anything meaningful to progress the game state, develop reads, or make reading his slot easier. There's no indicator that DEB will do any of this if left alive. It only behooves us to lynch scum. The same 'well we can lynch it later if it survives' logic could literally be applied to ANY lynch on ANY slot on D1, too. Someone needs to eat the rope and I'm perfectly fine with the risk of losing a Doctor Enabler against the chance of catching scum here and now.In post 714, Arkham Asylum wrote:Unless you can tell me why it's a bad idea to leave the slot and lynch it later if it survives, it's valid logic.
-The Joker
Why not?In post 717, Flavor Leaf wrote:DEB doesnt come up with that here on his own; he’s either true claiming as town, has that role or scum, or somebody coached him into it
-White
I'm pretty sure I've gotten it done before. That's the advantage of being a tree, and not a tasty semi-flightless avian.In post 728, NerfedBuJ wrote:Have you ever seen a playerlist not too chicken to kill or lynch FL anyway? It's not impressive if he's bussing"Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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ANNOUNCEMENT: I have done a meta deep dive (for certain values of "deep") on DEB and it significantly weakened some of my concerns about him. I can't go into too many details for ~reasons~.
I still think he'd be a good lynch in a typical game, for policy/instructive/flip purposes, but in a flipless game where he'd be able to keep talking, it's no longer attractive to me. FL and AA are also making good points about the slot being self-sorting.
UNVOTE:
With the demise of my Binary Star scumread, I'll have to give this some thought."Cry havoc, and let slip the wombat of war!"
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