Mini 2136 | City That Never Sleeps [Game over!]

[Atarashi Hajimari]

So when I sent the PM saying I'd replace in, I was starting to catch up on reading and I may or may not have spent 8.5 hours reading everything. Then I made the mistake of sleeping and I forgot all the points I was gonna bring up. So while I go skim back through a few ISOs to refresh my memory, I'll drop the summary of it here:

VOTE: Acryon

I don't know how this slot has slipped under people's radars but I'm really not seeing how this slot is town.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

I've probably forgotten stuff, but to summarize the reasons: I think people were onto a good lead in the early game pressuring Acryon and then it just kinda died and I still don't really know why. Since then he's just kinda parroted other people's ideas while simultaneously trying to low-key lynch the softed solo TPR in the game.

Spoiler: Acryon stuff

I think Karnage also screams town so far. Fairly straightforward posting.

Agreed.

I’m not really seeing the reasoning for town!nom.

I think a big cause of my uncertainty is the lack of push from acryon, who’s defending himself from GL and voting GL for it but didn’t even react/respond to nom’s comments on acryon’s post (which were in line with GL’s comments). The more I think about it, the weirder it seems.

- Smarter

Nom voted for me because of 107, which I could see someone having a hard time with, especially not knowing me. GL voted me for content before that. Different people, different reasons.

Nom voted for me because of 107, which I could see someone having a hard time with, especially not knowing me

Please detail on the "especially not knowing me" part.

This line especially I think is my personality showing: I'm maybe honest to a fault in mafia. I try to play the same as town or scum so I don't think it says much there, but if you were familiar with me, that post likely wouldn't ping you as much.

I think calling what I'm doing "scumhunting" at all would be an overstatement.

These two posts (primarily 190, but 187 a little bit as well) just come off as trying to hand-wave away pings from other people as "oh you just don't know me well enough". Really reminiscent of I think it was my second beginner game where someone did something extremely similar to this and was scum.

Acryon, your posts are not doing anything to change my mind. I apologize for misremembering the posting order/which post that nom had originally voted you for, but even in the most recent conversation, you were answering questions but not adding anything of substance or asking questions. As I said, I would expect town to be reaching out more and putting out feelers even on D1 - doesn't have to be "making a big case" like you're implying I said (also, way to put words in my mouth, because that is not what I said), but just engaging with others. And I'm not seeing that from you, it feels like you're being super passive in terms of interacting with other players.

I don't disagree with you as much on how the game should be played as I do your characterization of how I've played the game. Ideally we'd agree on both if we're on the same side (which I think we are), but c'est la vie. Moving on.

This also just doesn't feel genuine in any way. If I think someone is mischaracterizing the way I'm playing the game, I'm challenging that not just saying "oh well moving on".

If [acryon] himself can see that his post didn't look like scumhunting then he needs to give more explanation as to whether and/or why he finds me suspicious for calling that out.

I thought of a (probably bad) analogy.

GuiltyLion rolls up on acryon's house and sees him working in the front by some soil where he's planting seeds. GuiltyLion says "Wow that's a bad garden. You don't even have anything growing." Not only would it be 1) disingenuous and silly to criticize the garden at that stage, it's also 2) possible acryon is planting the seeds exactly right, and it

is

going to be a good garden. I'm less interested in arguing 2), but 1) is why I have an issue with what GL did.

1. I'm really not a fan of people making analogies like this that are (self-admittedly, and correctly admitted) bad without elaborating as to why it's an accurate analogy almost immediately after. It's a cheap distracting tactic from back in my high school debate days.

2. But to revisit the analogy anyway since other people seem to have liked it - we're ~1500 posts beyond the planting of this proverbial garden. Ask yourselves this question: what's come of this proposed scumhunting of Acryon's that pinged so many of you? The veggies have grown, ripened, and rotted back down to compost and literally nothing has come from it. Unless it's 'still growing', in which case GL's argument of acryon planting 'rocks instead of seeds' seems pretty likely.

142 from GuiltyLion doesn’t feel great. I’m always wary of people trying to paint a big picture based on a post or two early on. RVS stage is far from useless, but it typically doesn’t lead to these kinds of revelations.

what "big picture" do you think I was painting with that post? I was answering a question directed at me.

and would it change your mind if I showed you numerous examples from my past where town!me tries to make reads as quickly as possible? I hate RVS

Eh maybe. I put very little stock in anything meta-related, but it's good to know.

I really dislike this. Shades GL for trying to 'paint a big picture' from RVS. GL asks "hey what big picture am I painting?" and doesn't get an answer. This question never get answered, in fact.

I think trying to call someone out for "fake scumhunting" with my extremely minimal body of work seemed disingenuous.

what do you think of my blank vote on you?

I actually have less of an issue with a blank vote than a vote with what I see as bad reasons.

This doesn't actually answer skitter's question, but this one is admittedly pretty nitpicky.

Oh, and: Crayon, suppose I am scum, with the devious plan of forming a "townbloc" that lets me slip by.
I have never advocated for being on it myself, for starters. So, at the very least, I must be shoving my buddy in there (otherwise there's a 2/5 chance of a guilty which is just bad strategy).

Who do you think it could be? Or is it that I'm yet to add them?

This is silly. There's no guarantee that you can't change your reads, or that people will listen to them, and 2/5 chance of a guilty isn't so high that it makes no sense to run the risk as scum.

-Smart

That is true, but I'm not sure why this would ever be a strategy out of the gate.

For me, it's enough to back off for now. Auro isn't a town-read for me just yet.

This pings me as disingenuous and fake. If you aren't townreading Auro off of Auro's responses, why are you backing off on the pressure? What about his responses was sufficient to earn a relief from pressure if it's not that he seems like town?

Stuff that isn't included in the spoiler but I think is worth mentioning: I don't think his push on nom at the end of D1 has even a shred of genuine townieness to it. He's stated multiple points in this game that he doesn't put much weight on meta when the push on nom was

at least

50% meta related. It reads a lot more like scum!acryon pushing what looked like an easy EOD mislynch, backing off when other people were buying into the AtE (to be clear, I townread the AtE the entire way. I think I tend to townread AtE a lot more often than I don't so maybe I'm a little biased but also not the point), then hopping back on once other people picked it back up.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

@Eve:

I'm still trying to wrap my head around you. Why are you sheeping me? Do you agree with what I posted or do you just wanna see where it goes/what happens?

Also can you just give me some general thoughts on the game thus far?

[Atarashi Hajimari]

no but what kind of masochistic scum spends 8.5 hours reading to form thoughts

To be fair I GM tabletop RPGs like D&D for friends so some say that I have masochistic tendencies.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

i haven't actually read it yet

i'll read it now

...

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Did you actually spend 8 hours reading?

Do you have thoughts on any slot other than acryon?

-Smart

More or less. Weekends I work 12 hour overnight shifts where not a lot happens. Started reading around 8pm my time (2000 for non-americans), ended around 4-4:30am. Didn't get the role pm until I was already home from work and asleep, though. I did a similar thing in a newbie game I replaced into that skitter was/is in (won't talk about it more, though, because it's still ongoing).

As for other reads, yeah but not as well developed as my acryon read. I think GL is probably town given that he's playing extremely differently from how he played in the last game I played with him as scum (Newbie 1995, believe it was already linked earlier in the thread by Auro). Granted his playstyle then was largely to not play/lurk so it's not hard to be different from that (<3 you hobbes), but even his manner of posting is largely different imo.

I think skitter's town, but it's a pretty low confidence read.

I think your slot is probably town, though that's mostly off of Smarter/Lilith's interactions wrt skitter. I think the emotions behind those posts are hard to replicate as scum, so I'm inclined to believe you two are town. If you ask me to read the heads individually I'd say that you (Smart) are probably also town, though there's not as much strength behind that read. I'm also just not very experienced re: playing with hydras.

I wanna say that eve is town, but the playstyle is really throwing me off. This one might change but I just don't see scum keeping up this playstyle for as long as she has.

I wasn't a big fan of SausasaurusRex (I really wanted to say Sausage Rex but that just seems mean) and that slot was my second pick for scum but I haven't spent much time reading over Titus's posts.

I'm not sure on Auro's slot. I'll probably engage him more when he next pops his head in.

I'm probably missing people but I can't remember anyone else off the top of my head.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Hey GL, why don't you engage me instead since Karnage isn't here and I replaced him?

pedit: nevermind, you just did kinda. I wanna talk to you directly though

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Atari I'm here if you wanna talk

what do you think of Molla, you forgot him in your reads post

Riiight that's a person in this game. Not sure, that slot hasn't been super active. I'll add him onto the list of people to talk with.

Whats your read on skitter?

[Atarashi Hajimari]

I'm about to have to drop out for a few hours to play Pathfinder for a while. I'll be back in a bit.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Hey Auro! Talk to me!

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Yoohoo! What do you wanna talk about?
I'm surprised I am not locktown after an 8 hour read, though

Idk, stuff. Anything, really. I'm trying to understand you.

Why do you think you should be locktown?

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Why do you think you should be locktown?

Adoption and commitment to a strategy that would've screwed me over is the strongest personal reason. Prolly this is

the only time I'll do it as town though

So does this mean that you usually do it as scum? o.O

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Also pagetop

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Defend Karnage: "Unfortunately you're his partner or Waking!"
"Defend" GL by trying to lynch somewhere else: "Oh you're buddies with GL!"

Why do you think you should be locktown?

Adoption and commitment to a strategy that would've screwed me over is the strongest personal reason. Prolly this is

the only time I'll do it as town though

So does this mean that you usually do it as scum? o.O

Lol consistently asking to be cop checked? No

Is asking to be copped your "Adoption and commitment to a strategy that would've screwed you over"?

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Yes

Isn't that, like, super WIFOM-y though?

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Man this game is whack

I might just sheep Limit

like GL you say it might be Titus/Molla and I can't even argue that I feel strongly about Titus being town or anything

I feel you on the game being whack.

You don't say you feel strongly about Titus being town, but do you feel strongly about Limit, then? Why?

Also, have you read my arguments for Acryon?

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Nah I still think Acryon is town, the stuff that pinged for me early game pinged for you too, but other than then they have seemed town

What has seemed townie about them to you? I'm fairly confident in my read here.

Also, 1e. We're playing through Rise of the Runelords, slightly modified so that we reach level 20 rather than I think 17 is where it normally stops? We're sitting at level 16 right now.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Why are you so convinced from your own reasoning it seems like a lot of weak "what ifs" to me

I mean, the random wagon death on them earlier in the game was kinda disconcerting but other than that the behavior from that slot just reads like scum that knows they're relatively universally townread so can play a bit more loose. If their earlier stuff doesn't matter as much what do you make of their behavior re: nom's push, especially knowing nom's green flip?

Spoiler: Also, D&D/Pathfinder nerd talk. Feel free to skip if you don't care

Yeah I primarily play/run 5e games (I'm running a group of friends through a Tyranny of Dragons game right now, though that's just recently started), but this group of friends prefer the crunchier feel of 1e in Pathfinder and we've been playing this game for a few years now. I've messed around with 2e and I'm not

super

fond of the feel of it but my experience with it is, admittedly, really limited.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

I'm not sure how much I buy the "scumslip" tbh. Rex was pretty repetitively promoting the idea of dragging the day on as much as possible, and the second statement seems to line up with those other arguments relatively well. That said, that slot is one of my probably scum suspicions, so I wouldn't mind flipping it.

Skitter though I'm unsure on. Is the argument for scum!skitter just PoE?

[Atarashi Hajimari]

@Atari:

@Auro, I think Allomancer towned up in his recent posts. Why is it that you still think he should be the lynch?

UNVOTE:

He was promoting that for slots in general. BUT, he made the quoted post SPECIFICALLY about Allomancer.
That he thought Allo towned up. And a question to me on why I still scumread the slot.

Like, you all are offering his general reasoning for D1 lynches as a counter-argument when he very specifically said he thought Allo towned up, and in D2 said he wanted more time but was OK with Allo lynch. You tell me - if you thought a slot "towned up" and unvoted them, would you call it "wanted more time, not that I wanted to defend them" or "I thought they were towny"?

Okay I think that's a fair point.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

I agree with flipping Titus before skitter, but I'm not sure I agree that town!Titus makes scum!skitter more likely. Explain that one to me?

[Atarashi Hajimari]

In terms of responding to the case, there weren't really any direct questions, but I'm happy to respond to some if they have them. Otherwise looks like it's just based on whether I'm genuine or not, and I can't argue that.

...you've gotta be kidding me. Are you trolling me? This is the most blatant hand-waving away someone's suspicions on them that I've ever seen.

Like, what person actually reads through someone else's reason to think they're scum and thinks "oh, they don't directly ask me any specific questions, I don't have anything I can respond to here"?

I am saying that you are scum and should die.

I have provided reasons based on your posts and provided analysis as to why you are scum because of things you have said and done. The absolute

bare minimum

you can do is say "hey you're wrong" and why I'm wrong. The

productive

thing you can do is look through them and say "hey, this person looks like town/scum from this push on me" and sort me.

The absolutely tilting thing you can do is just look at it and say "hey none of the questions marks seem directly addressed to me so imma just ignore it".

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Like...do I have to go really bad debate tactics and say "if you're not responding to my arguments then that means you agree that they're true" to get you to respond to me?

[Atarashi Hajimari]

I just woke up and I need a drink. Jesus I havent been tilted this hard in a long damn time...

[Atarashi Hajimari]

I wonder if I should extend my acryon case to cover his more recent posting because theres a lot of not very good there.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

I kinda feel like we need to just flip someone at this point and see what happens. It really doesn't feel like we're getting anywhere

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Cuz like, we're at 7/2. Two mislynches to play with so we can get more info off of flips to work with and it's not like there are other PRs who are at risk of getting shot tonight. So let's just lynch a slot that'll give us the best associatives to go into tomorrow with and we'll see who scum wants to flip and go for a solve there?

If someone's trying to read or do something today then I'm down to wait for them to do what they wanna do but otherwise what are we doing?

[Atarashi Hajimari]

The only thing I think is bad about going into tonight is that scum are almost definitely shooting to minimize info we get off of the night kill, which means the likely NK targets are, what, me/eve/maybe limit? We should get more content out of these slots so that our flips at least tell us something.

Speaking of which, I'll spend the rest of the day going through everyone's iso and making a full readslist

[Atarashi Hajimari]

We also only have a day and a half so deadline is coming soon

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Not a fuckin clue. Best guess would be titus + 1

[Atarashi Hajimari]

I'm around but I'm at work. Imma start re-reading stuff now but surface thoughts since I last posted:

The recent acryon/limit interaction gut pinged me super hard as sketchy - potential s/s interaction. Not sure how much of it is my previous bias of thinking scum!acryon = true, but imma check that out closer

I think skitter is probably town tonally speaking. Her behavior here is similar to a game I played with her recently (that's still ongoing).

@skitter: you've been pretty insistent that acryon is town. Walk me through your read.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

In post 212, acryon wrote:
In post 163, GuiltyLion wrote:
If [acryon] himself can see that his post didn't look like scumhunting then he needs to give more explanation as to whether and/or why he finds me suspicious for calling that out.

I thought of a (probably bad) analogy.

GuiltyLion rolls up on acryon's house and sees him working in the front by some soil where he's planting seeds. GuiltyLion says "Wow that's a bad garden. You don't even have anything growing." Not only would it be 1) disingenuous and silly to criticize the garden at that stage, it's also 2) possible acryon is planting the seeds exactly right, and it is going to be a good garden. I'm less interested in arguing 2), but 1) is why I have an issue with what GL did.


1. I'm really not a fan of people making analogies like this that are (self-admittedly, and correctly admitted) bad without elaborating as to why it's an accurate analogy almost immediately after. It's a cheap distracting tactic from back in my high school debate days.

2. But to revisit the analogy anyway since other people seem to have liked it - we're ~1500 posts beyond the planting of this proverbial garden. Ask yourselves this question: what's come of this proposed scumhunting of Acryon's that pinged so many of you? The veggies have grown, ripened, and rotted back down to compost and literally nothing has come from it. Unless it's 'still growing', in which case GL's argument of acryon planting 'rocks instead of seeds' seems pretty likely.

Hey acryon, before you go criticizing eve's scumhunting why dont you respond to this part of my original casing against you where I question if your scumhunting is genuine?

[Atarashi Hajimari]

The formatting there is super bad, but I'm on my phone so whatever

[Atarashi Hajimari]

And to be clear, acryon's doing a lot of the same things he's scumreading eve for - following along with popular consensus and avoiding thinking too deeply about the game. I really dont see my vote changing baring extreme circumstances

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Acryon wagons,

Huh? He was a universal tr until I replaced in and started the wagon and it's literally all I've been pushing. How are you the one responsible for the wagon?

[Atarashi Hajimari]

Auro given time left and that you're the only person on the skitter wagon theres not gonna be a skitter lynch.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

my push also got a sheep vote to bring him to L-2, so.
Titus was at L-2 or whatever and Crayon had 1 vote, then I unvoted Titus and voted Crayon.

I'm so confused...like...this is factually incorrect. And I'm really confused by the doubling down on it

[Atarashi Hajimari]

@auro, why are you scumreading acryon

[Atarashi Hajimari]

@auro, why are you scumreading acryon

I've described it a few pages earlier, I think his reads and progressions don't look legitimate?

Can you link the post? I'm having trouble finding it in your iso.

[Atarashi Hajimari]

In post 212, acryon wrote:
In post 163, GuiltyLion wrote:
If [acryon] himself can see that his post didn't look like scumhunting then he needs to give more explanation as to whether and/or why he finds me suspicious for calling that out.

1. I'm really not a fan of people making analogies like this that are (self-admittedly, and correctly admitted) bad without elaborating as to why it's an accurate analogy almost immediately after. It's a cheap distracting tactic from back in my high school debate days.

2. But to revisit the analogy anyway since other people seem to have liked it - we're ~1500 posts beyond the planting of this proverbial garden. Ask yourselves this question: what's come of this proposed scumhunting of Acryon's that pinged so many of you? The veggies have grown, ripened, and rotted back down to compost and literally nothing has come from it. Unless it's 'still growing', in which case GL's argument of acryon planting 'rocks instead of seeds' seems pretty likely.

Hey acryon, before you go criticizing eve's scumhunting why dont you respond to this part of my original casing against you where I question if your scumhunting is genuine?

Again, I'm not sure what I'm responding to here? You think my analogy was not only bad (won't argue with you there), but disingenuous (don't agree obviously). Then you poised a question to the rest of the town, not me. So not sure what I'm responding to there either?

...it really shouldn't be that hard to grasp and the question at the end was initially more rhetorical than to "everyone but you", but since you seem to be oblivious to it I'll be more direct:

You were accused of fake scumhunting with a lot of your earlier questioning. You said it was "the start of something" or a basis from which scumhunting can develop. A simple re-reading of the thread shows that literally nothing developed off of your questioning in the ~2000 posts since then, invalidating your initial defense. Do you agree with this assessment? If not, what information/ leads, if any, developed off of your early game questioning?

[Atarashi Hajimari]

The only point of my analogy was to say that early game for me (and most) is just about asking questions

to start to build to things

and that it's silly in my opinion to be critical of that early process.

...thank you for restating the basis of my question. Yes, I am getting a little abrasive, because you've been artfully dodging answering this question for almost 400 posts now.

Going off of the italics, what specifically, if anything, was built off of your early questioning?

[Atarashi Hajimari]

His question was: Can you pick examples of some early game questions of yours, and show us how the responses to those helped progress your reads?

This.