Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

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[Hectic]

HEAL: Launchy
HURT: Chara

[Hectic]

well, i sure as heck don't know the answer to that, and i don't expect you to either. but the funny thing is that we don't NEED to know the answer.
no blood or dust needs to be spilled. no one has to suffer. here's why pal.

at first glance, you see all the negatives that come with SPARING. you see no investigations, you see the

Chara

wincon, you panic. it's natural. but you gotta weigh up the positives to really see what's on offer here.
if we go for the SPARE route, we get:

• mathematically great odds for the first three spares. a 9/12, a 7/10, and a 5/7 (assuming we hit town). then we have a 3/5 to win the game.
  /
  
• we can always transition into a respectable neutral route if desired. if there's no confident townreads on day 3, then whatever, we've got plan B to fall back on. but SPARING earlier is a lot better than SPARING later. the numbers are on our side.
  /
  
• mafia are rarely the top townreads in games. they love sticking around near the null/neutral line. plus, we can utilise the obvtown that will inevitably arise from this game, just like they do in every game of mafia. instead of abandoning them to be shot by mafia, we can SPARE them, and utilise them to win instead.
  /
  
• SPARING both mafia is very unlikely. if they were good enough to both be SPARED, we were probably not winning this game the normal way either. and it would be a poor performance from the town in terms of how towny they looked.
  /
  
• if we SPARE 1 mafia in 4, we are forced to SPARE one final player. a 3/4 which isn't too bad. then we have all the SPARED players return to the thread and get final chance to nail the SPARED mafia in the 5. at first glance this looks difficult. BUT, you need to factor in how we will have a lot of information to solve these players. they will have been alive and producing content from the start of the game. these are players that were towny enough to be SPARED in the first place, so will inevitably have a lot of content and reads from every player, including their scum partners to examine. these players should also have been continuing to talk and solve in the SPARED PT, and we will have associations with 2 of their buddies to examine. plus, some of the players in these 5 will be very obvtown so it'll be a decision that's more like a pick in 2 or 3 players that didn't town it up as hard.
  /
  
• finally, we get 2 days of juicy interactions to examine when
  Chara
  flips. winning the game by SPARING
  Chara
  is huge for mafia, and seeing how players read and interact with
  Chara
  will be VERY telling. if we simply FIGHT and kill
  Chara
  off day 1, then mafia has no need to do anything special around
  Chara
  , and we'll get little useful info (unless
  Chara
  is a FIGHT candidate but this is less likely).
  
  welp. that's everything i guess. think it over.

[Hectic]

the custom tags are neato.

Sorry to break the fun but
i read the setup going in. Somehow I was very confident. I am no longer confident.
Is the purpose of fighting only for info? Is 0 or 4 spares the ideal??

[Hectic]

are you going to keep pretending to be my brother? i only played along last time because the rest of the monsters were so concerned with your opinion.

HURT: Hectic
<3

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

but they're not going to be random. they're going to be consensus townreads.
finding town is a hell of a lot easier than finding scum. it's easier to spot towntells and towniness than scum ones.
also, don't ya forget that it's not the end of the world if we do SPARE a scum. we got a fallback.

[Hectic]

HURT: Hectic

Deliberately deceptive.

[Hectic]

-the stage?
well, that's Glyde. he's my boss.
look. he can be a

little

self-obsessed and can even get jealous of himself at times
but. he has a heart of gold that guy
he doesn't want this game to turn into another mostly regular game of mafia + some investigations at the end
he really enjoys townhunting and doesn't get to do it very often at all
so yeah, i'm a little biased
but i really do believe in my arguments that it's optimal to start out with SPARING at first, and then see whether we want to continue or transition into neutral
simply based on the numbers and finding town earlier before they've been nightkilled

[Hectic]

also, people are forgetting that bad play on 4 FIGHTS (4 misFIGHTS in a row) means scum get parity and we're donezo
without any investigations at all

[Hectic]

i kind of really want sparing to work, but i just don't think it does

how do you figure that sparing works best in the first two days? that's also when we could spare chara and that's an autoloss. if you spare early you also increase the risk of the chara surviving

also though

well bud, there's naturally going to be more obvtown around early because they're not dead yet from being nightkilled ya know
plus we have good odds just statistically speaking. the numbers speak to me

Chara

heavily depends on the player that rolls it. it's a tough job to be a UTR as scum
but if you're worried about scum going all in for a

Chara

SPARE victory in the first 2 days, that's fine, because if they don't pull it off the associations and evidence left behind from

Chara

's flip will be damning for them

[Hectic]

makes me sad but i know when i'm beat, 4 SPARES is a no go
any of ya gonna work out the numbers for 1 to 3 SPARES?

anyway, Prism town because he did the math and was accurate before catboi revealed his spreadsheets
he made the effort but showed no working or proof to try and make it look impressive or get any towncred from it

i believe catboi when he says he wouldn’t reveal the EV working if he was mafia
only because he decided to out his info right after I made a huge case on 4 SPARES, where there was some uncertainty where town would go, and it wasn’t just guaranteed to be genocide anyway

[Hectic]

yeah bud, that's honestly my main issue
hopefully we can make a 1-3 SPARE route work if the EV for that is acceptable

[Hectic]

Launchy pal, how is 120 "solely mechtalk"?
it's based on others' mechtalk but non-mech reads

[Hectic]

HEAL: catboi

[Hectic]

190

[Hectic]

that's the post i meant to link to earlier and that's why i think catboi is town
why are you dissatisfied with my explanation?
also why are you so prickly

[Hectic]

[

ah develop
i'm sending these wavelengths remotely
i'm currently in Snowdin so ISOing and rereading is a pain right now
later

[Hectic]

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everyone's gonna come back after the marathon ends...
i can try and elaborate on my read on you though...
it's not based on meta and is an independent read... i can't remember much of your play from the hydra minigame game...
the scum-motivation for working out the odds and posting them is little due to the required effort... i would have expected some kind of proof working or grab for towncred...
the lack of it makes me think you were working it out for good faith reasons...

[Hectic]

anyway... i'm bad at reading the thread without my friends...
so when everyone comes back is when they will catchup...
when the marathon ends...

[Hectic]

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my first thought upon reading this post was "alright, now to try and emulate my town self that Prism is recognizing so i can keep getting townread."
Undertale S ruined me.

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

Meh, the mopiness is annoying but I don't know that it's scummy and now that I take off the rage-goggles, even though we disagree on our approaches he seems to be making attempts to legitimately evaluate people

[Hectic]

HURT: redtea

[Hectic]

HURT: Pooky

Tell me

, do you have any reads on anyone? You haven't stated a single one all game.

[Hectic]

I gotta say it is a bad take on Hectic's part. The spreadsheets show that he wasn't baselessly echoing Prism for cred but legitimately corroborating.
Both catboi and prism are well tr'd at this point though so I suppose it doesn't really matter

[Hectic]

Why'd you hurt redtea first, Hectic?

[Hectic]

This flower scares me

[Hectic]

Hectic saw a much, MUCH more open/friendly Prism as town

I was intentionally waiting a little before mentioning it.

[Hectic]

The pivot to Pooky is playing it super safe and objective with choosing what to push on.

[Hectic]

His approach on me this game is vastly different to how he's ever treated me. The last ~5 games I've played with him he's scumread me. He was town in 4 of those, and scum in 1. My last game with him is the one he was scum in, and in that he mentioned in the scumchat that he knew how to manipulate me by playing to his townmeta, and proceeded to scumread me as usual... the FOOL, that won't ever work on me again.
So, this is very new to me. He doesn't even have a reason to townread me, he's doing it in a memey "Hectic is always town" way. I think there's a chance he's polarising his approach from his last scumgame so that I think he's town here, but he's overdoing it.

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

my first thought upon reading this post was "alright, now to try and emulate my town self that Prism is recognizing so i can keep getting townread."
Undertale S ruined me.

If it's a genuine thought Chara had (replicate its townmeta to appear town), it's one that looks scummy for obvious reasons and is a fairly normal thought to have as scum, one that scum!Chara is likely to forget about and not want to mention in-thread at all.
Secondly, it's a nuanced emotional state to fake as scum. Mostly because scum just wouldn't think of coming up with posting this in the first place, while it could easily come naturally to town.

You are absolutely correct that I should be more scared of Chara though. This is all assuming Chara is a normal player, but Chara is a player with an exceptionally strong scumgame. It'll take a lot more to make me want to SPARE it this time around.

[Hectic]

Hectic saw a much, MUCH more open/friendly Prism as town

I was intentionally waiting a little before mentioning it.

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

@hectic, do you have a read on me yet?

[Hectic]

Line

[Hectic]

making just one post for this game feels like pulling teeth. someone throw me a question or something.

pedit: ?

[Hectic]

Prism, if you care for it, Your Nightmare just concluded. Hectic won this as scum. i caught him day 1 but wasn't confident enough to get him eliminated and then got killed.
it'll certainly effect my own approach this game, and as it's fairly short i thought i'd mention it to you.

[Hectic]

I was criticizing your catboi read, not your Prism one.
Point is, I don't think your reason for invalidating catboi's cred is well thought out. I think the way he corroborated put them on equal ground.

[Hectic]

hectic is very good as scum

but if we go the spare route it will not matter

what are you actually talking about

we are masons together

Also, I hate that my first instinct is to unvote you after seeing this. You are strong at pocketing me...

[Hectic]

Just a question, was the concern more about catboi's regard among the town or about MT's behavior?

my concern was MT's behaviour, but not in a "this looks scummy" way. rather, a "i'm concerned if you're town and locktowning someone for this" sort of way. that's why i ended the post by saying i wasn't interested in getting into a logical argument.

pedit: i nearly voted Pooky in this post, so i'm surprised that comment makes you want to unvote.

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

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-of my townplay so high, that they become suspicious when I inevitably don't meet those standards. VERY clever...

But seriously, I have a very loose grasp of this game currently. My check for how much I'm into a game is if I can sort the playerlist into a readlist (everyone gets their own tier) without having to reISO or reread anyone, and I am VERY far from being able to do that right now. Pooky has inspired me to sit down and put more time into this though, so I'll be doing that tonight.

[Hectic]

wow, I feel like my reads are completely the opposite to everyone elses

[Hectic]

-emoji department. Pick up the pace, Morning; it's KILL or BE KILLED in this world, and you're currently being killed... metaphorically speaking.

[Hectic]

-that i'm confident she's town. She's hard towntelling this game and I'd bet the game on her being town
(i have a towntell on her which has so far been very accurate - i'm not going to reveal what it is because it is too valuable)

HEAL: Morning Tweet

[Hectic]

-everyone in the game?
just like whatever you remember for each person. thoughts and feels if you have nothing else for people is fine
thanks, pal!

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

-be able to withstand much weight, so pressure away.

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

one of them should be pooky
one of them should be me
one of them should be hectic

btw this post is why i think elements is chara.

he very conveniently puts himself in the middle of the order - he can't be last because he'd die on D3 - so it's a sneaky middle of the pack insert - he doesn't put himself first because he's a very sneaky chara.

This is like conspiracy theory level reasoning in my opinion

NotChara Elements would like, need to convince us that he's towny somehow. Simply asking to be heavened is a terrible strategy.

If he put himself second with the purpose of subliminally suggesting we spare him second, that means he actually believes that saying "one of them should be me" gives him a greater chance of being heavened or somehow helps him get to heaven. doesnt really make that much sense to me

-still kidding around or serious about his Elements-

Chara

read.

It's the same deal with his 544, like he's assuming Elements is listing out a scumteam there with associatives, rather than listing independent scumreads. How serious are those posts, Pooky?

[Hectic]

if you say so, but imo it seems to me like you realized you were reacting poorly and decided that the best way of handling it would just be to see if I'll latch onto someone else in time or wind up shouting in the wind

not even trying to read me in return is the telling part of this imo

some point, but for now, you're receiving a lazy gutread.

[Hectic]

my soul read on hectic has been right like 100% of the time

I dunno

he hasn't done enough yet for me to use my soul read yet.

I'm worried he might be avoiding me :>

I've been inspired by Launchy to ask a question without leading the recipient in one direction or the other: Why did you start contributing about non-4SPARE stuff when you did?

[Hectic]

ugh, okay. it's already way past 3am here and i'm pretty tired and this game is uninspiring, so. i was hoping that elements would be back to elaborate on his reads or that lavender would be back to do

something

since those are the two things that interest me the most at the moment but alas.

i mean, define productive. imo getting people onto the highest EV path is productive. getting everyone to start talking reads is productive, because i will have a very hard time caring about this game if there's 3 people ~doing nothing~. am i succeeding in what i'm doing? debateable.

you know it probably would've been way easier to get AI-reads on the scum team if we had at least pretended to be down with the 4-spare strategy for a few days to give the incentive for scum to try to get a chara-spare win rather than just being like hell no there's no way we r giving chara a chance to win early.

is that what you were doing?

i'm seeing people starting to get suspicious of puppy and at some point i did start wondering if he's been pocketing me and if he starts looking like a plausible day one fight i will look into it.

my Spicy Hot Take(tm) of the night is that lavender (confidering how difficult they seem to be to wagon) is chara who's trying to leave out the fewest associates possible for after they flip. this may or may not be the sleep deprevation mixed with unhealthy tunnelling speaking. i'll decide in the morning.
HURT: lavender

i swear i will give this more attention (or like, a proper readthrough of ISOS or something) once i get some sleep

am probably around for the next ~half an hour if someone needs me

I want her to fulfil my

thoughts on all players

request. It'd be very useful if you could,

Lavender.

[Hectic]

-alignments when you did?

[Hectic]

Looking forward to digesting that after lunch.

[Hectic]

I was also surprised by 452, because the purpose of my Pooky vote was more to pressure him than concluding he was scum, which is why I think the "I'm with you" is strange. Pooky memeing about SPAREs and opening up our hearts was unreadable for me. He seemed to have a transformation recently in his games where he started taking them a lot less seriously and opted to joke around a lot more, but my early assessment is that it's NAI.

Ah, I see Pooky mentions the reason for the change towards the end of the post. It's what I'd guessed.

[Hectic]

hectic who would you spare right now

changing your tune a bit

hectic who would you spare right now

changing your tune a bit

?

you've been all "we must fight" "fighting is the only path" and now you're asking about spares

Yes

so your tune has changed....

No

why are you suddenly asking about sparing

Hectic wants to spare but isn't actually voting anyone for spare. So it's fair to ask, does he have anyone in mind? So far that slot is mostly just mech talk. Let the man speak for himself!

HURT: puppy

Launchy's explanation that he wanted to ask who I'd like to SPARE since I wasn't actively pushing for anyone is perfectly reasonable. Why did you, FIGHT him anyway, Ele? Plus, what's scummy about him changing his tune in the first place?

HURT: Elements

[Hectic]

Hectic - Town
Elements - Town
Chara - null
Prism - town
PookyTheMagicalBear - chara
catboi - town
Morning Tweet - town
Tayl0r Swift - eh
Lavender - who?
redtea - eh
Tanner - scum
CantLynchAPuppy - scum

I'm feeling incredibly lost and I don't know why

-nullreads. You even had a

Chara

-read and 2 other scumreads. Why are you lost?

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

-puppy, and this one was less cute.

[Hectic]

1 SPARE/3 FIGHTs has a lot of utility over 4 FIGHTs in a timeline where we FIGHT 4 town in a row, because that results in a loss
but i don't think we'll do that and it's likely we get 1 scum in the first 3, which would then make the 4 FIGHT benefit actually superior to the 3 FIGHT/1 SPARE one
i think Ele has good odds of flipping scum, the interaction i pointed out earlier is very reminiscent of this one:

never mind, i was going to post the exchange leading up to the vote here, but it's not actually too similar

i wish i knew how to calculate the EV for 1 SPARE/3 FIGHT
in a worst case scenario it's certainly better than 4 FIGHTs, i think i'm already changing my mind on what's optimal
i think it's fair to say that mafia win a fair amount of the time with sweeps and losing no members
it gets easier and easier to control the gamestate as you hold a larger percentage of the slots
so maybe that's what we should be playing around and going with 1 SPARE to prevent that?

i think Morning is strongly town and we should be SPARING her today
then, if we FIGHT town 3 times, we'll still get 2 cop checks and still have a great chance of recovering the game
otherwise, if we FIGHT 1 scum/2 town, we'll only get 1 cop check but i think this disadvantage is worth voiding the risk of losing to 4 misFIGHTs
also of course there's the day 5 clause if no mafia is fought then but that's very unlikely and is also dependent on Morning being scum (highly unlikely)

HEAL: Morning Tweet
^^^^^^^^^^^^this is the play, pals

[Hectic]

-puppy, and this one was less cute.

Spoiler:

[Hectic]

...who's gonna tell him?

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

catboi is my top scumread fwiw. i also dislike hectic for pushing a spare today, after everything else we've talked about re sparing/fighting.

-about something?

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

worse than FIGHT>SPARE>FIGHT>FIGHT
you think scum!me could think there's any chance that would instantly not be shot down?

[Hectic]

I didn't addressed this earlier because I thought it was selfexplanatory but the push on Elements for memeing that you're town after he misread you 4 games in a row was also extremely puzzling. I get overplaying the hand here but like ??? this was not even something you mentioned, the background you gave was not nearly sufficient and seemed to be willfully missing a super important point.

mentioning at the time. It felt a little off tonally and he was legitimately pushing for me to be SPARED alongside Pooky/himself, but without any reasoning I could see, especially for Pooky being town at the time.

[Hectic]

[trimmed of the content I'm not focusing on]

i think Morning is strongly town and we should be SPARING her today

HEAL: Morning Tweet
^^^^^^^^^^^^this is the play, pals

This is really wack to me. At first I thought you forgetting was +town? But the more I think about this the weirder this is.

You haven't made the case for Morning town. You've said that you have a reliable towntell on them that you aren't going to out because it's too valuable. You haven't cited anything else that you would be willing to share.

There's no real attempt to get others to come around to Morning town and jump on this spare. The result is that this feels performative. I really don't like you this game.

I didn't know whether or not people would agree with my proposal in the first place, and trying to convince others Morning is town is something I probably would've done later. At the time, I just felt like getting my mech thoughts out that I'd just thought of.

[Hectic]

Prism: i'll be honest, my eyes have been glossing over while reading parts of this game and i still haven't read some of the earlier walls/chucky posts from players. i've kinda just been out of it. maybe that's because nothing's really gripped me? or because i haven't had any scumreads outside of what feels like low hanging fruit or relatively obvious things to poke at? or it might be a side effect of simply being in too many games and stretching myself far too thin - that's probably the biggest factor. i do think my play will improve over time as i get more into the game, and today and yesterday i have infact been reading everything.

Ele is still my biggest lead, and him elitelling atm has made me feel slightly better about it.

[Hectic]

My point isn't that he has zero reason to townread you. I'm sure even if he's scum he's got something waiting for that.

My point is that the entire way he approached sparing you was performative, because he wasn't trying to persuade others to come around (and there are probably many not-so-secretive towntells) and he did not seem to give thought to alternative spares

The "this is the play" highlighted by arrows suggests to me that the mech was a framing for the vote to spare you, rather than the vote being an lazy add-on to mechanical thinking that he claims

This is where my performative claim comes from. Zero interest in actually making the spare on you happen, just making his stance on you clear.

Aight, be back later

completely misreading that post then. i actually start that post out accepting 4 FIGHTs is the optimal play, but then change my mind halfway though while thinking a little more about it. it was just my stream of consciousness being jotted down while i wrote the post. not something that was prepared beforehand with the goal of trying to SPARE Morning.

[Hectic]

@Morning:



explaining how accurate it's been, but i suppose it wouldn't be that easy, would it
you're absolutely right though that to towncase you i'd basically be making up reasons to think you're town in order to convince other people of it
the towntell isn't something i want to reveal so it'd just be that way

[Hectic]

I wish you had waited until tomorrow to make that post

[Hectic]

Note that he has failed to be cognizant of the game setup before as scum (In werewolf, warlock, vampire he sort of forgot scum had a nightkill), but that was during RVS, not after 28 pages of literally half of which was mech talk.

but i wasn't trying to fake a dumbslip or anything. i was talking about identifying 1 T-T pair

after

the nightkill, and then when someone mentioned the possibility of a W-W pairing, i admitted it wasn't actually true in that case
no one even bothered to ask me if i'd forgotten scum had a nightkill or to clarify why i thought 1 T-T pairing was enough
everyone thought it was a townslip so i just went with it and let it happen lol

[Hectic]

Isis
Morning Tweet
Prism
Lavender
catboi
redtea
Chara
Tanner
PookyTheMagicalBear
Tayl0r Swift
CantLynchAPuppy
Elements

Lavender is town because of the stream of consciousness and free flowing kind of posting in her read list. It's why I wanted to get one out of her. As scum, her reads are rigid with little turns in the middle. As town, she changes her mind while she's even writing out the read. See her recent Nightless Vanilla towngame and the readslist in that, and then compare it to the readslist in her scumgame to see what I mean.

[Hectic]

my lame take is that lavender is scummy for lurking. my spicy take is that puppy might be a good candidate to fight.

prism is town. i feel like puppy is town but i dont recall any puppy posts recently so not sure why.

What changed regarding your Puppy read in this time?

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

Town-Lavender:

Just going to write what I think as I hop through pages and read.

Marksman-Seems okay, probably my bias on them asking me questions. Because I do that...

Nono-I have no clue, really I don't. Others think they're town so, that's it.

Chemical Elements-Liked him in the beginning mainly because of the VC posts, but I don't like the fact that he thinks all people on the Wey-Wagon were town, it doesn't make sense as I said before. Also, they have a lot of quote blobs, just a lot. They dunked Hayasaka who was on Wey's wagon, with no context as to why, perhaps they just agreed with Marksman "We need a dunk"?

(ლ(¯ロ¯"ლ)) innocentvillager-Still don't particularity like them, but now it's mainly because I'm confused while reading their posts, they keep calling people Supreme Leader and makes it hard to see who they're referring to.
Blah I can't follow their train of thought. Actually, I HATE how they refer to people as Leader, I can't tell who's who. I hope I don't do this.
I dislike their hellbrooks vote after Hayasaka flip. As well as their reaction to said flip.

Raya36-Uhm, honestly everytime I read their posts my mind goes blank, they interact a lot, that's ok yeah. I tried to read their thoughts, got stuck on them thinking Hiraki was town for the same reasons I thought they were evil.

Casey-Mainly seems all right, actually really fine. If their scum I'll be shocked, they made pretty pictures too! Generally they seem to be proactively helping town.

Isis-I like the way their playing this, it feels the point of view of a town person playing this. Honestly, their posts give me more motivation to actually do something XD. (Btw you accidentally voted me twice in the past o.O)

Almost50-I'm associating the way their acting to a previous game they replaced-in as a town, so this makes me think they're town as well. But I've realized that I always think A50 is town lately. Which is uh, not good when they're actually evil.

Hiraki-I really think this slot is a bad? Weird? Their voting doesn't make sense, it seems like they're just trying to get by. They defended Wey, I mean I guess this isn't inherently bad, but I don't think it's good.


I noticed Casey actually asked me a question, "Have you made any dishonest mistakes so far?"
Not that I know of no.
Er I'm guessing dishonest mistakes mean non-genuine ones.
All of my mistakes are just really really stupid mistakes. QwQ

Who the heck is Fredrick????????????????????????????????

I just hope I'm not completely and utterly wrong on everything. (＠_＠)
If you need me to expand on a read just ask. ~(>_<~)

PE: Ack, more posts (｡T ω T｡)

Scum-Lavender:

Subject: Newbie 1931: Philip K Dick Game Over

Lavender - Slight townlean, but really doesn’t post enough to make this clear in my head

. . . :?:

I'm sorry the reply broke, that was Spangled's readlist

Can you give your own on the whole board.

I am assuming that means my read list on everyone.
Teacher - Seems to be actively scum hunting and is engaging, town-lean
Godmid - Is using the advice given to try and do better as well as hunting, town-lean
Agador - Not much activity, nothing really shown that screams ‘scum’ or ‘town’, null
Urap - Robb from before was hunting in their own way which was pretty aggressive , but Urap seems to be behaving as they were in the last game, slight town, kinda null
Spangled - Seems to be cooperative and is somewhat scum hunting, not much though, slight town-lean, mostly null
NMSA - Very short posts, not much detail, and not really doing much, slight scum-lean
CC - While they confused me earlier, Godmid stated this is just how they play so for now, null
Nav - They are already making scum-teams which may be like scum hunting, but tbh I have no feeling on Nav, null

What do you think of Lav?

Well, lav was invisible last game ( :lol: ) and tbh I don't remember how I got to a town read there. I'll go back and look at how I got there later but right now I'm like null-town on lav because there are better candidates for scum

This hurts my invisible heart XD

Reads are generally more confident and blunt when she's scum, and there's less uncertainty and changing her mind as she writes the post. This is apparent in the rest of her posting too, and not just the readlists.

[Hectic]

Trust me on my Morning Tweet towntell. There will come a day where she breaks out of it and does it as scum, but I don't think it'd be to this extent and this hard (unless she suddenly aware of what it is and is manipulating me with it, but I highly doubt that she would've figured it out).

[Hectic]

Launchy + Ele is a possibility. Launchy keeps shading and calling out Ele but isn't pushing him and even used the rep as an excuse to vote me over the slot. The interaction they had looks kind of fake too, where Ele pushes Launchy over their "turn changing", implying they suddenly want to SPARE over FIGHT, when in reality it's just Launchy asking me who

I

want to SPARE since it's something I wanted to do but hadn't pushed for a candidate yet.
Launchy explains himself in an adequate way but Ele lays out the vote anyway, maybe because it'd be weird if they're both scum and for him to shade him but not vote him, like he feels obliged to do so.
I'm not as confident on that aspect as calling Ele scum though. His tone has been surprisingly friendly this game, and not that I'm saying Ele is friendly as a person, but his town game is usually very abrasive and standoffish. He'll speak his mind and won't care about appearances. In this game, he attempted an early pocket on me (yes, it's a meme, Prism, but it felt like an unnatural one - like he voted to SPARE me before I'd even made a single post). Then, he tries to pocket Pooky and even advocates SPARES on Pooky/Ele/I. I'll quote the posts after this.

Also, there's just the giving out a full readlist with only 2 or 3 null reads, but then saying he's feeling very lost in a later post which kinda contradicts where his headspace was at for that readlist post.

[Hectic]

HURT: Hectic

Deliberately deceptive.

i very much disagree

[huret]catboi[/hurt]
hectic is a pillar of reliability
he never rolls scum

pooky are you always so lovely?

HEAL: pooky

acctually no
HEAL: isis
I want you around longer

HEAL: pooky

HEAL: pooky
can't say no to that

one of them should be pooky
one of them should be me
one of them should be hectic

[Hectic]

Crossfire looks pretty similar to this game even though I'm skeptical of the walllread interpretation. Kind of a shame since skimming through other earlier games they had much stronger townplay (Baseball)

IDK how much stock I put into the scum sample given the calendar year but we have no other record so I mean

Slot definitely has the potential to be a trap vote.

Back to sleep now

pedit: pooky not having malign intent, would have liked to see it in reaction to 610, will read bigger post when I wake up again

Yeah, the problem is that the sample size for scumgames is just 1, but willing to place confidence in it given the stark difference. Goodnight.

[Hectic]

Crossfire looks pretty similar to this game even though I'm skeptical of the walllread interpretation. Kind of a shame since skimming through other earlier games they had much stronger townplay (Baseball)

IDK how much stock I put into the scum sample given the calendar year but we have no other record so I mean

Slot definitely has the potential to be a trap vote.

Back to sleep now

pedit: pooky not having malign intent, would have liked to see it in reaction to 610, will read bigger post when I wake up again

Yeah, the problem is that the sample size for scumgames is just 1, but willing to place confidence in it given the stark difference. Goodnight.

I was Marksman in Crossfire if you want some more useful juicy scummeta, Prism. On the house.

[Hectic]

What I mean by "confidence" is the way she presents the read. There's no umming or erring in her scumgame. If it's a townlean, it's a townlean. If it's a nullread, it's a nullread. In her towngame, she'll be shifting around while explaining the read.

[Hectic]

the scum motivation is arguing for spares, and then when it doesn't gain traction, u can pretend u were just forgetful and of course u're for the good pro-town option. not sure whether that's what u'd do or not though. having a hard time reading ur slot this game

I countered your point here:

worse than FIGHT>SPARE>FIGHT>FIGHT
you think scum!me could think there's any chance that would instantly not be shot down?

As far as I can see, this is the only thing you've stated you dislike from me since calling me null here:

also i wanted hectic to elaborate more than he did. i still feel like he shoudl feel townier than he does, so i'm kind of null on the slot. (maybe it's just the posting gimmick? i admit the pictures do get me to at least read what he says)

what's the basis for your scumread?

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

The number of times I have listened to Snowy after refreshing the thread...

Hectic locktown for gracing this music upon my ears.

[Hectic]

Oh, Nahdia's transported us to Waterfall(?) I think. My bad for ruining everyone's immersion. This should be better:



Very innovative to use pieces of paper spelling death as a death zone btw. Low budget and does the job.

[Hectic]

but also i willl say is i feel bad about hectic b/c he invited me to play with him this game, so it feels bad to scumread him. he just doesn't feel like the last game i played at all

Don't feel bad about that! It's a game and I obviously don't take scumreads personally.

Regarding the "feels different to last game thing":
This is a huge problem I get and a big reason I secret alt all the time. I frequently change my playstyle between games, and differ the amount I joke/my tone/type of posts etc. Now, the issue with this is that some players notice I'm different from the previous town game they played with me in, and then put this difference down to a change in alignment, when this infact really isn't the case.

[Hectic]

I'm not sure I understand this reasoning at all. Why is not thinking +town rather than showing a lack of legitimate scumhunting process?

a fair question, kitty. can i call you kitty?

i find scum would be more likely to have some sort of justification in mind when giving a read, and when called on it would say something besides admitting they actually have nothing. that, and scum's tendency to think through their posts more deeply than town.
it does depend on the player, but perhaps i was too quick to remove her from the list of players i wanted to poke.

I agree with this, and also like Taylor's standoffish nature and refusal to engage in the mech discussion early on. My qualms with her largely lie in the her reading me as scum because I missed the

Chara

clause thing from a few pages back. Like, I don't get that read at all.

[Hectic]

Alright, no shame in taking a break for a day if you're not feeling it. We can talk tomorrow.

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

Do you two come from mafiauniverse?

[Hectic]

one maybe less boring answer is hectic. i'm kind of... creeped out by his play around lavender? asks them for a readslist with feels about players, and once they make that one post doing what was asked of them, they go pretty high up in his reads because... they did a similar post in one towngame? and the one scumgame over a year ago their readslist was "less fluffy"?

As I mentioned before, it's not just the readlist, it's the general posting in both of those games, and not just that towngame, I checked the towngame before that too. catboi raises a good point that it seems like her tone has just shifted in general over time though.

I was excited to be able to call her town because she seems like a difficult read! I still think there's fair value to it because I think her first scumgame after so long would still have less elements of her townplay - the uncertainty and stream of consciousness while writing posts I mean.

[Hectic]

Don't tell anyone, beeboy, but it's actually the way Morning flaps her ears. She flaps them slightly faster when she's town.

[Hectic]

Flapping them too fast makes the tell wrap around into being a scumtell though. It's gotta be between 100 and 200 fpm (flaps per minute)

[Hectic]

Hectic is doing his scum tell of not posting Miso pics....

Uh oh. My greatest weakness

[Hectic]

Perfect

[Hectic]

I hope you are all proud of me for restraining myself from posting more. Skitter told me I need to dial down my involvement in games and give them a chance to breathe.

Anyway here are some of my thoughts over the last 24 hours:


1] Hectic

I liked his TR of Lavendar - I was worried for a moment that he was moving to LHF-Push Lavendar as her meta is fairly weak - this slides him more towards a good player for me.

Not like SOUL-READ MASON- but closer. The music is also lovely.

2) Catboi

I find it strange that he would pursue the path of attacking me and claim that he expected me to bury him in a giant wall and then back off the way he did.

If this is what you expect me to do when you attack then why would you even attack in the first place if you were just going to walk away? The behavior is strange and I'm not sure if it is AI.

3) Redtea has gone mia

I hope he's alright and I would like to discuss his town-read on catboi with him.

4) I like reading Prism/Chara conversations - they are refreshing.

5) MorningTweet is too cute.

6) Could it be that Puppy is scum with Elements? Would be very interesting to re-examine the Puppy slot. I would be sad if my puppy friend was scum here.

Ending Thoughts -

I would like everyone to take the time to do a detailed readslist with actual citations for how they feel about each slot in the game.

Right now we feel somewhat directionless very close to the deadline and I would like to get more of an overall sense of how the room is feeling before we decide on a fight candidate.

Also if we miss and hit town it would be very useful to see the Chara's readslist.

You can't see my SOUL yet, Pooky?? It's alright, we have time to work on this.

Is catboi's other content since your scumcase of him making you lean one way or the other on him?

[Hectic]

Is catboi's other content since your scumcase of him making you lean one way or the other on him?

it feels pretty opportunistic to me that he seems to be going from 1 LHF to another at this point.

What about his Chara push? It's pretty high hanging fruit imo

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

I'm also still confused about why Hectic is continuing to push that Elements had a serious spare vote on him. Really bizarre and not my interpretation of Elements' ISO at all but Hectic doubled down on it.

I didn't say it was a serious SPARE, the scummy thing was that it was kinda unnatural and might've been an attempt to pocket me.

[Hectic]

I think part of the struggle for me is how it's really that unnatural. It seems like you had issue with his tone. But without knowing Elements, and just knowing that he misread you 4 games in a row, joking around about you always being town and sparing you in RVS seems extremely natural.

I can definitely see myself voting this slot, though.

Well, yeah, but I do know his tone. And like I said, it's usually kinda abrasive and very unpockety. His type of approach towards Pooky and I this game I haven't seen from him as either alignment, but I think there's more scum-motivation than town-motivation for the shift.

[Hectic]

@Prism: I was just about to call it night so will have to go in depth tomorrow, but for now:
I am just town struggling this game. Something about the first 20 pages just wasn't engaging with me at all, and I was very lazy and found myself skimming a lot of stuff. The reason my reads were not fleshed out or weak, is because they're relative to my engagement/grasp of the game at the time, which was poor. I found some more motivation to look at stuff more closely today, and engage myself more.

The scum-motivation for Ele pocketing me is because in 2 of the last 5 games together, he was scum, and in both games, town!me played a big role in pushing him and getting him launched. His approach in both of those games was to scumread me like he normally does in his town games. This could easily be scum!Ele realising that isn't working for him, and trying to come out buddying me from the offset.
Town!Ele would probably be more neutral on me or give me less attention.

[Hectic]

Also, for Hectic/Chara/anyone else that feels like it, skim the first five to ten posts of mine of this game for me.

what am i looking for here? it's a scumgame from a couple of years ago from you... you seem like a different player, ahahaha. very aggressive.

Old Prism was kinda scary lul. Are you suggesting you still play scum like this, Prism? You weren't anything like that in the hydra minigame iirc.

I guess your play here actually lines up more with that game than how you played in the previous Undertale game, but you were quite chill in the Black Hole Defection game too, so I don't think it means a lot.

[Hectic]

Actually Hectic, can you link me a game you struggled similarly as town?

Probably my worst towngame
Recent one where reads here were pretty lacklustre

It's worth noting that I find myself playing a lot looser and freely on alts nowadays. Maybe it's some kind of weird mental block on my main or something.

[Hectic]

i kinda want you to elaborate on this last part, where exactly has she shown Stream of Consciousness other than that one post? i was gonna ask about uncertainty too but i guess that's like... every post? and iunno. it was just one post. it almost seemed orchestrated in a way, "hey lavender post reads", *lavender posts reads*, "ok ur town"

That's not what happened though. I was looking for something specifically in her reads, and I got it. If they matched the type of list she made in her scumgame, I would instead be pushing to FIGHT her today. She posts infrequently and doesn't give a lot of content, so it's hard to see if she's in that "stream of consciousness" mode or not, which is why a big old readlist helped loads with that.

[Hectic]

Yeah, maybe

[Hectic]

Tbf I don't think beeboy is terribly difficult to read, he's capable of being very obvtown at times. I just want to FIGHT him because Ele did a good amount of scum-indicative stuff.

[Hectic]

Only seen 1 scumgame of his though.

[Hectic]

Σ(-᷅_-᷄๑) trying to figure out who would actually make sense as being teamed with the elements slot and it's, like...lavender, taylor, redtea, or

I guess

Prism and that's it. Hrm.

I don't think scum can reasonably defend Ele here without looking very bad down the line for whenever that slot flips.

[Hectic]

(In the Ele scum world)

[Hectic]

He's capable of obvtowning when town, doesn't mean he can "obvtown any time". Also, Ele isn't just scum for "friendly tone".

[Hectic]

Meh, beeboy hasn't done anything to change my mind on the slot and I think my reasons on Ele are solid.

[Hectic]

I can't read beeboy with considerable accuracy. I've played one game with beeboy where he was very obvtown and was heavened (purgatory setup), 1 town game where he was pretty towny, 2 where he wasn't, and a scumgame where he was similar to the latter two towngames as far as I recall. You're reading too much into my comment; all I was saying is that he has the

potential

to obvtown hard, but it's not very often from my experience anyway.

Chara, I'll look into those reads you requested tomorrow.

[Hectic]

my room-temperature bad-VCA take is that beeboy is prob town for how "fast" the wagon was there but also that i'd be willing to vote there if really necessary

Very much disagree with this. What do you think scum would do in this situation if beeboy is town? There were no other viable counterwagons as more people started voting him, the other largest wagon at the time was actually Chara on 2 votes, and you can be the judge of how likely scum thinks that'll go through.

The rate at which the wagon grew tells me very little, since scum in equal parts would want to get on for buscred if they think he's going down, but what does alarm me a little is no one taking up the opportunity on the Tayl0r counterwagon that arose a little later. catboi and beeboy both voted her and i wouldn't have been surprised if it swayed some others, but no one else joined.

[Hectic]

The seperation between, me, red tea, lavender is literally nothing yet I dodge the POE somehow.

Why do you think that's scum-indicative? Your slot was looking very viable as a push so what's the motivation in setting you apart from the other two?

[Hectic]

I really want redtea to come around.

I want Hectic more now and the fact that this isn't happening is tragic imo. #1007 feels like working backwards from beeboy-scum to me. Beeboy is asking for the thought process behind the PoE, and Hectic's response is "Well why are the PoE choices themselves scum?" which is really shifting the burden here. The thought process behind it is pretty clearly AI, speculating on motivation behind the specific PoE choices made by scumTayl0r generally requires knowledge of the scumteam and Tayl0r's scumplay that none of us have.

No, it's me asking beeboy to expand on why he thinks it's scum-indicative so that I can better read his alignment.
I'm not asking "why the PoE choices are scum", I'm asking why having 2 people as PoE, and another not listed as PoE (where all 3 have similar nothing to townread them for reasons listed) is scummy. Yes, it's inconsistent, but is the inconsistency necessarily scummy unless there's specific scum-motivation for it?

Are you misinterpreting my question or is there soemthing I'm not getting here?

[Hectic]

I don't understand what you're saying then.

[Hectic]

The new deadline after the extension for Elements' replacement is (expired on 2020-09-15 15:27:24)
(it was a forty hour extension).

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

first things first, we only fight from here on out, right? now that the insta-loss after day 4 cannot happen, there's no reason to not go for genocide?

[Hectic]

@hectic, you disgreed with my "stalled wagon on beeboy means he's town" thing (and obviously you were right >_>), can we chat about this? do you think a bus is possible/likely?

I read through the transcripts for yesterday and I was quite surprised to see you calling beeboy town based on VCA, and even a little alarmed by it. I haven't felt such excitement since reading a very interesting snail fact from the night before! However, I then realised it would serve you little purpose if you were a monster, as there were no other viable counterwagons and you didn't try and push anyone and instead kept your vote on Lavender - someone who others as well as Master Glyde himself had just towncased, not likely to lead to saving beeboy at all.

hello friends, insomnia is kicking my ass

i was gonna vote beeboy (because deadline and i see my vote is still on lavender oops)

but i wanna see if it's possible something happens there now

also vaguely agree with 1017

I have conveniently highlighted what I want you to focus on in a pleasant shade of pink! At this point, were you still hoping for a mass shift onto Lavender? Why did you disagree with Master Glyde's reasons for her being an innocent child?

Otherwise, I do believe that a bus is a very likely possibility. It's either that or the monsters were simply too afraid to push anything else or hop onto Tayl0r, as it would look too opportunistic and quite bad for them down the line!

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

That readslist from Hectic confuses me. lements slot still at bottom, extremely puzzling Lavender read but will check the referenced game later. Ordering of people below MT begs many questions. Maybe I'll like this more when I actually wake up.

Order of the townreads in your list was also bizarre to me beyond MT at the top.

ordering of my readslist, but fail to question me about it once. Why, is this a joke?

[Hectic]

pooky are you always so lovely?

HEAL: pooky

acctually no
HEAL: isis
I want you around longer

HEAL: pooky

HEAL: pooky
can't say no to that

an innocent child. It looks like the monster was trying to get on his good side, and I find it quite unlikely that two scum come out pushing for SPAREs so strongly together.

[Hectic]

/in Cats 2, whoops sorry Chara's Folly

about Cats (2019) again, and I was looking forward to it; your SOUL shined

so

brightly in those days. Why haven't you mentioned it?

I have this inkling feeling in the base of my roots, that you prefer to play more seriously as scum, and joke around less, but were afraid others would notice this difference in comparison to Undertale: the prequel, and so decided to nip it in the bud in ways. For example, pushing me for NOT commenting on the difference, and linking that scumgame and asking Chara/I to read through it from a couple of years ago. Almost, as if, you're trying to give us the impression that you, as scum, wouldn't be so blatant about changing your style and then giving us all the evidence we need to realise it's scum-indicative for you.

So I didn't really have anything particular I wanted from linking it. Chara hasn't actually outed a townread on me but seems to trust me a lot this game. Hectic seems to guttownread me. Because of that, I thought linking a scumgame where I took a similar approach tonally/in making reads would make for interesting reading.

The time doesn't actually matter that much. I haven't evolved as a scum player since 2016, and while I've improved in some ways as town other aspects have taken massive hits. I've steadily gotten worse over the years. Kind of sad but that's what happens when you put progressively less time into a hobby. I guess I did at least find playing scum tolerable back then, which is a big difference.

You admit here that you didn't even have a reason to link that scumgame for us. Were you sending it our way before we stumbled upon it ourselves, showing us you have nothing to hide?

[Hectic]

If a townie is fought and there

are no spared players

, Chara will eat buttercups and die.

[Hectic]

I really wanted to take the extra day off and wait until tomorrow to post but I guess I should respond to that.

Literally was in the process of making a video celebrating your death in Flying Scumsman

Shitposting on Replica kicked in only when I was driven insane by the gamestate refusing to reevaluate on Farkran. Work through a couple of my towngames and see when I start shitposting.

The difference between my town and scumgames at this point is just the fact that I'm willing to even play the game at all.

This is true...

I'll have a look at your other town games in a bit.

[Hectic]

scum either bussed or just sat back and did nothing while we killed beeboy. do you really think

all

of them did the latter?
also, i find Tweet's lack of faith in me... disturbing.

(¬ω¬)

Lack of faith?

I find your lack of faith in me disturbing. I went down in your reads after Ele flipped scum?

[Hectic]

I find you harder to read on this account, Tanner. I guess I townlean you. The bad-VCA take and lack of desire to be on the wagon when it looked like a given is town-indicative.

Pooky on the other hand having his first vote of the game be on Ele when it looked like that was going through for sure is sus. Why didn't you ever vote for catboi, Pooky?
It's a good thing I can see your SOUL through how Ele interacted with you...

[Hectic]

I mean, why didn't Hectic and Chara go up by virtue of pushing Ele, but Puppy did?

[Hectic]

in any case, i'm categorically uninterested in pushing you to Cats levels of despair in order to better read you.

Cats-level-of-despair-Prism was a blast though...you're tempting me.
I wonder what it'll take this time.

[Hectic]

pedit: Hectic and Chara. i like that, let's go arm in arm to the end. i'd like to be the same alignment as you.

places. I'm tired of being a flower. There's just one thing left I want to do. Let's finish what we started. Let's free everyone. Then... let's let them see what humanity is REALLY like! That despite it all... This world is still "kill or be killed!!"

[Hectic]

Can you walk me through exactly how a beeboy scum flip led you to suspect me more as scum? Your scumread Day 1 was correct, so I don't see it as earthshaking. All of the points you're making feel less like a reread and more like something you've had waiting in the wings.

I didn't answer the first post about why I never asked you more on the reads. I was directly engaging with you, asked enough questions as is, and expressed my issue with the town (-MT) ordering section. It's pretty clear what I'm confused about and leaves it up to you whether to expound on it. I suspected it was just manure. I could have inserted a question mark if I wanted, though, sure.

You were never voting for Ele despite expressing the fact you wouldn't mind a FIGHT there, and were regularly voicing support for FIGHTing me - a potential counterwagon to Ele. Fortunately for me, that lost its support towards the end.

Regarding the reaslist part: Which part of it were you bothered about? I wasn't exactly going to expound the whole thing -Morning without knowing what was concerning you.

[Hectic]

Sure, Prism.

Towards the end of Day 1, I started thinking about how persistent you were on I being scum, and whether it was in good faith, and then I started thinking about how stupid I'd look post game if I was hard townreading scum who was trying to murder me. I started looking at your posts with a little more paranoia and small things pinged me, like the way you formed that townread on catboi, or how you mentioned Ele/I could be SvS but then dismissed it as total crap. I can't articulate on either of these because they were "pings", and not something I can form a reason for standing out to me. I also noticed you weren't questioning me on my readlist despite calling it strange, but I didn't think this productive to enquire about as it only brings more focus/attention to me which is unneeded, especially since I was trying to push Ele through.
You asking Chara/I to look into your scumgame didn't ping me at the time. It pinged me closer to the end of the day when you replied back to the both of us and mentioned you didn't really have a good reason to ask us to read it.

After Ele flipped scum, it naturally makes anyone who was pushing non-Ele wagons a little more sus. You were pushing a wagon on me all game, and while Ele was the counterwagon. I wanted to get out most of the things that were pinging me about you from the previous day which I could articulate on, and which was now useful to enquire you about.

So, yes, you are correct that all that was stuff I picked up on day 1.

[Hectic]

500 words minimum, double-spaced, APA cited.

Oh, whoops.

>Prism hard town


>but WHAT IF Prism was scum


>Prism paranoia


>Ele scum!


>Prism push


Prisms are normally grounded and polished transparent materials shaped geometrically and optically. Usually materials include glass and plastic. In optics, prisms are transparent optical elements that refract light whereby two of the flat surfaces must have an angle between them. The angle, position and number of surfaces help define the function and type. Traditionally geometrical shapes are triangular prisms. (Newton Herschel, 2009, Duarte and Piper, 1982)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dispersion_prism.jpg File:Light dispersion conceptual waves.gif

Figure 1. A triangular prism, dispersing light; waves shown to illustrate the differing wavelengths of light (2008)

Prisms work by the principle that light changes speed as it moves from one medium to another; for example, from air into the glass of the prism. The speed change causes the light to be refracted to enter the new medium at a different angle, according to Huygens principle; which is in brief a method of analysis applied to problems of wave propagation. According to Snell’s law; the degree of the light’s path bending depends on the angle of incident the beam of light makes with the surface, and on the difference between the refractive indices of the two media. The refractive index of many materials; such as glass, varies with the wavelength or colour of the light used, a phenomenon known as dispersion as shown in figure 1. This causes light of different colours to be refracted differently as well as to leave the prism at different angles, creating an effect similar to a rainbow.

In optometry how prisms work is by shifting corrective lenses off axis, images seen through them can be displaced in the same way that a prism displaces images. Eye care professionals use prisms, as well as lenses off axis, to treat various orthoptics problems; such as diplopia, positive and negative fusion problems, and positive and negative relative accommodation problems. Commonly used are wedge prisms which are used to deflect a beam of light by a fixed angle. In terms of the eye beam of light; it is deflected on to the retina, ideally fovea, however can be other location on the retina which gives clearest image. The most generally found are Risley prism pair in optometric practices and hospital eye services for diagnostic use. (Newton Herschel, 2009, Duarte and Piper, 1982, Duncan et al., 2003)

[Hectic]

Pooky on the other hand having his first vote of the game be on Ele when it looked like that was going through for sure is sus

I don't think this is a fair framing of the situation - as far as I remember I was one of the first people to suspect/push ele no?

This is also true, and Ele OMGUSing you and pushing you as Chara is another town point in your favour, unless he was already in anti-spew mode, and if so... respect.

[Hectic]

I can't point to anything specific that you did on day 1 that made me put you as town. It was mix of your tone feeling towny, having coherent thoughts that I agreed on (outside of scumreading me obviously), and my early reason for thinking you were town from the EV calculations.

The combination of those things along with you solving and progressing the game is what made you strong town.

I've only looked at Ele interacting with people from his ISO btw. I didn't properly reread anyone last night, but will look at your mentions of Ele along with how others treated him at some point.

[Hectic]

i really really feel like chara is chara.

I would like to know more - this is very interesting

shut up you jerk, you know what i mean.

[Hectic]

i really really feel like chara is chara.

I would like to know more - this is very interesting

• Enter strong and accumulate some townreads.
  
• Be the first to push a scum buddy for some distancing for when you hopefully flip end of day 1.
  
• Fade away mid to end of day 1, trying to leave as few other associations as possible.
  
• Realise Ele is the only wagon and is going to be the FIGHT - be forced to produce more content and be in for another day.

I haven't seen anything

scummy

from it outside of just fitting what a

Chara

would do however.

[Hectic]

HURT: Sujimichi

[Hectic]

Oh there is one thing!
Hectic calls people different names? Maybe?
I really can’t tell, who is Launchy and who is Master Glyde?

and Master Glyde is simply the being that we all work for! He created us all for the sole purposes of finding the monsters, and he is a wonderful presence in all of our lives.

[Hectic]

Prism I don't think your Hectic vote is going anywhere.
Who else are you looking at right now?

Taylor is a good idea I think.

If it's not clear, by the way, I'm planning to vote beeboy unless there's a change in the winds.

Not really that interested in Taylor. Their reads are underexplained and that gets them slotted 3rd through 5th.

Why were Tayl0r's reads being underexplained a reason against voting her?

[Hectic]

Hello. I am not a lamp.

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

It doesn't count if it's from a skeleton.

[Hectic]

eliminated with little drawback, since the only person they would create associations with would be the person they get eliminated.

I don't see fluff as scummy, and haven't really been pinged by you otherwise.

[Hectic]

That's pretty unaligned with Ele-indicative, and I think that's probably not faked. Scum would be a lot more conscious and aware of a vote on their scum buddy from earlier.

[Hectic]

Oh, huh, didn't see 1179 but then 1181 came along lol

Hmm

[Hectic]

Ah, okay. I remember you talking about this in the prequel.

[Hectic]

hello friends, insomnia is kicking my ass

i was gonna vote beeboy (because deadline and i see my vote is still on lavender oops) but i wanna see if it's possible something happens there now

also vaguely agree with 1017

Why the "oops" here? Also, did you meta Lavender at any point yesterday?

Pedit: Yeah, Tanner puts me at unease. I don't really like their Lavender push or thoughts yesterday.

[Hectic]

@Tanner:
No, I don't think it's suspicious that you're not blindly sheeping me on her being town. What I do find suspicious is the confidence you put into the push and scumread of her across yesterday. She's like obviously low hanging fruit if you look at any of her games, but you went out of your way to grab that fruit,

my Spicy Hot Take(tm) of the night is that lavender (confidering how difficult they seem to be to wagon) is chara who's trying to leave out the fewest associates possible for after they flip. this may or may not be the sleep deprevation mixed with unhealthy tunnelling speaking. i'll decide in the morning.
HURT: lavender

This especially feels very bad faith to me. If you'd metaed Lavender, you'd know she very rarely and barely provides reads. The readlist that I got out of her this game is infact a LOT more content and thoughts than she normally gives on day 1. So, pushing her as a "Chara who's trying to leave out the fewest associates possible for after they flip" is very sus to me.

HURT: Tanner

[Hectic]

one of them should be pooky
one of them should be me
one of them should be hectic

btw this post is why i think elements is chara.

he very conveniently puts himself in the middle of the order - he can't be last because he'd die on D3 - so it's a sneaky middle of the pack insert - he doesn't put himself first because he's a very sneaky chara.

Really? This is a strong post?

It felt really tinfoil to me. It's not like scum!Ele actually believes that he's gonna be able to SPARE those 3, and I doubt the order represented his gameplan of ordering for SPAREs.

[Hectic]

I was only being voted by you when he entered the game, and I'm obviously far too formidable a target for him to dare try such a thing. I also have too many lives to take me down. Kill Flowey, and I'll still have Papyrus, sans, Napstablook etc

[Hectic]

Do you agree with me that Tayl0r+Chara are unlikely to be scum, Hectic?

Tayl0r's switch on me is pretty unwise for her if she's scum. I was a counterwagon to her/Ele at the time, and I don't understand why she gives me up but then

doesn't

bus Elements for any cred. Likely town.

Agreed on Chara.

[Hectic]

is elements normally this quiet as town?

guess who's never voting tayl0r today

it's me

I know at some point Pooky in the 600s improves but so far I want to turbofight him and just win the game outright

I've got some other stuff I want to circle back to but MT/Redtea also both look town to me.

Ehhh, I wouldn't say this post is massively indicative of town!Tayl0r, simply because I played a whole lot of games during the last marathon, and I found out that scum are a lot more self-aware and likely to point out their buddies being absent than anyone else is. Maybe that's just a marathon thing, but I wouldn't put much stock in this.

[Hectic]

There's also 454 which I don't like, Tanner, because you're completely dismantling Lavender which is quite easy to do, but everything you poke at there is just Lavender being Lavender. Her whole MO is giving non-stances and barely commenting on things, and it's easy to tell it's a manifestation of her personality based on the way she plays, and confirmable if you look into her meta. So, the way you roast her feels a little too well done for my tastes.

Lavender is your one consistent scumread that you poke and push throughout day 1, and I just... don't like the reasoning you give?

[Hectic]

There's also 454 which I don't like, Tanner, because you're completely dismantling Lavender which is quite easy to do, but everything you poke at there is just Lavender being Lavender. Her whole MO is giving non-stances and barely commenting on things, and it's easy to tell it's a manifestation of her personality based on the way she plays, and confirmable if you look into her meta. So, the way you roast her feels a little too well done for my tastes.

Lavender is your one consistent scumread that you poke and push throughout day 1, and I just... don't like the reasoning you give?

okay, so...? she has a scummy a shit playstyle, i can maybe give you that. but "manifestation of her personality"? do you actually think my 454 is bad faith coming from someone who never played with her before? like, "lavender being lavender". i don't know lavender. is my reasoning still bad?

and, what do you think of my previous post? like a big part of your vote (at leat what i figured) i that i was trying to push lavender through to save beeboy. have your thoughts updated on that?

also also, if i am scum trying to misfight lavender, why do i kill catboi, who (1) is townreading me and (2) is the only other person who was listening to me there and voting with me?

What I mean by "manifestation of her personality" is that she feels really non-confrontational and ~floaty~. I suppose I've played with her before and I can't exactly remember if I thought this as soon as I saw her, or after I checked her meta and realised this, so you're right that this point is probably moot.

I don't have a clear picture in my mind of what scum!you wanted to achieve. Whether you actually believed you could push Lavender through as a counter to Ele, or whether it's just you faking scumhunting as all scum have to do.

I decided your VCA take should be regarded as NAI, since at that point you would know it's very likely Ele is going through and there's nothing you can do about it, so everything you do there is a kind of antispew for the day in a sense if you're scum.

my Spicy Hot Take(tm) of the night is that lavender (confidering how difficult they seem to be to wagon) is chara who's trying to leave out the fewest associates possible for after they flip. this may or may not be the sleep deprevation mixed with unhealthy tunnelling speaking. i'll decide in the morning.
HURT: lavender

This especially feels very bad faith to me. If you'd metaed Lavender, you'd know she very rarely and barely provides reads. The readlist that I got out of her this game is infact a LOT more content and thoughts than she normally gives on day 1. So, pushing her as a "Chara who's trying to leave out the fewest associates possible for after they flip" is very sus to me.

Could you address this for me?

[Hectic]

also also, if i am scum trying to misfight lavender, why do i kill catboi, who (1) is townreading me and (2) is the only other person who was listening to me there and voting with me?

This is weird btw. Clearly the argument I'm making isn't that your goal as scum this game is to FIGHT Lavender, it's that I think your reasons to FIGHT Lavender on day 1 are fabricated.

[Hectic]

zzz this feels like moving goalposts.
> "you're scum who was trying to push lavender to save beeboy"
> "but i barely mentioned lavender..."
> "i don't know what scum you was doing, maybe you were trying to just fake scumhunting."

there was something i could to about it. i could bus. i could *not* sit on the sidelines like an idiot going "hurr durr there is no resistance this is a town flip but i won't try to actually push through anything else and i'll vote there if i have to i guess since we need a fight".

maybe, maybe. It doesn't make a lot of sense unless you're exactly Chara, I'll give you that, since then bussing is dumb since the towncred isn't worth that much to you and you kinda want to keep your buddies alive.

It does beg the question then of why you don't use your Chara temporary life gift to really push a town FIGHT through, but maybe you miscalculated and thought you could do that with low-hanging-flower Lavender? I do recall you voicing support on FIGHTing me but you never joined the wagon, maybe you were waiting for it to pick up a vote or two before you joined and abandoned Lavender?

I'm gonna go back and check your stances on me/Tayl0r.

[Hectic]

i don't think i've ever hated a day one as much as i hate this one...

prism (i think...) asked me who else i'd fight other than lavender. one boring answer is taylor, because their weird reads, or rather i feel like i can't exactly follow their thought process.

one maybe less boring answer is hectic. i'm kind of... creeped out by his play around lavender? asks them for a readslist with feels about players, and once they make that one post doing what was asked of them, they go pretty high up in his reads because... they did a similar post in one towngame? and the one scumgame over a year ago their readslist was "less fluffy"?

also there's quite a bit of text i skimmed over so if anyone wants my take on anything specific, shoot.

At first this looks like you're positioning yourself for Hectic or Tayl0r votes - both potential counterwagons to Ele - but then what's the point of doing this which makes you look worse down the line anyway without actually using your vote to make us more viable vs Ele?

I feel a lot less confident about it now.

Pedit: Glad I could be of service

[Hectic]

Curious, Sujimichi... very curious.

HURT: Sujimichi

[Hectic]

i'm finding the "i remember you doing X so here's me explaining the scum!motive to you doing X" annoying but whatever.

Someone else recently got really mad at me for doing that as well actually... it's more for myself talking through the motivations and trying to land on something that makes sense, but I can see why it'd be annoying on the receiving end.

[Hectic]

have i ever read you right in a game? i don't think i have. my first instinct here is telling me that your solving of my slot is hella fake and that you're just waiting for someone to voice a suspicion of me before jumping back onto me being scum. but at the same time i feel that is wrong...

What's fake about it?

Why would I need someone else to voice suspicion of you and then "jump back" on, how is that more beneficial to me as scum?

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

[Hectic]

What have I done today that you're sus of, Launchy?

I don't have much motivation to reread or solve right now because I'm preeeety sure it's just Sujimichi's slot.

[Hectic]

Now that Krazy is here I can safely VOTE: Conspiracy

Very happy to see you back though.

[Hectic]

@Tanner:
I still like Lavender. I like the meta read that she concluded on me, and townreading Launchy for consistently shading/pushing Ele from start to finish is also fair. I mean, I don't expect much from her, but this is more contribution from her than the entirety of Crossfire (where she was town), so the lack is certainly not scum-indicative if that's what you're afraid of.

I have a tinfoil theory that she's an Isis alt who's self-inserted herself as Chara into the game, but I'm still working on formulating this one. Will be back with soemthing more concrete later.

[Hectic]

Krazy, you should probably look at how the Ele/beeboy wagon went down towards end of day 1. A lot of discussion has revolved around the lack of a counterwagon, and why wouldn't scum bus etc. Might be useful to just see how everyone ended up voting there.

[Hectic]

so I'll HURT: tanner and ask if anyone has a good reason to townread either swift or tanner?

i townread tanner because he is pushing stubbornly up in situations that would be easier for town to shirk back from. he's still trying to push a case on me (?) when i'm obvtown (iso my votes on the elements scum wagon from yesterday). is that a "good reason" for you?

*flashbacks to scun!Farkran doing this for the entirely of the last Undertale game and being hard townread by many for it*

[Hectic]

doing what puppy is doing (defending? me?) or doing what i am apparently doing (pushign? against the grain?)
if it's the latter, do we need to talk again, hectic??? buddy?? pal????

I don't think you're Farkan, so no, but it still gave me

war flashbacks

[Hectic]

hectic pls stop changing your avatar constantly, i am tired of rereading your iso and forming a new read on you every time you change it

See, that's my secret. I subtlety change my avatar based on what the current thread climate is, and what'll reflect a more optimal toneread.

[Hectic]

is that second paragraph joking? i genuinely can't tell
if it's not a joke, i'd be willing to talk about that

I mean, Isis self-inserting doesn't compromise game integrity, right? It's an open setup and there are no town PRs, what stops her from secret alting as one of the scum slots?

also i remember you saying that lavender doesn't provide much on day one? was that implying she does more on further days or??

No, her content remains sparse for the entirety of the game. She's done a lot more in this game on average though.

[Hectic]

VOTE: Isis

The gig's up I'm afraid. You had a good run.