/in-Vitational Game 5, Simon Mafia 2: Game Over before 832
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Lord Gurgi Mostly Harmless
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With a chainsaw, yes. :)Battousai wrote:
So, basically do something scummy and see who attacks? That's basically what it is.Lord Gurgi wrote:Actually when you vote someone who can't defend themselves, you get to see who jumps to the valiant defense.(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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Mod: What happens to a room with nobody in it?[/b]
I think that since the Bellhoppery fails if two people try to do it, if the scum mess with the plan, then they'll have confirmed our Bellhop, or they'll be forced to claim and try to get him/her lynched. I like having confirmed unkillable people that can make others unkillable. I also like killing scum early. As I see it, we can either control who the scum can kill, or they can try to get us to lynch our bellhop, which still means they lose a guy. This looks like a win-win to me.(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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Why do we have to force anything? If we just colourclaim and start moving people, that'll work. If it fails, the Bellhop claims. No counterclaim, we have a confirmed unkillable, counterclaim, we have 50/50 of confirmed unkillable or 1-1.(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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Okay, so the scum take the chance that there's no town bellhop, or we get a confirmed bellhop, or there are two. Only SpyreX is that ballsy. Long term, man, long term.TDC wrote:LG: And where do we get a confirmed innocent today? As far as I can see, we only know there's at least one bellhop of unspecified alignment.(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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I think it's important to know what the heck is up. If we're moving people into a certain floor, we don't know if people are being moved back and forth and in what quantities, unless they claim, and we don't know if they're telling the truth. I don't feel comfortable with individual cases claiming without a baseline from which to work. It seems to me like the scum benefit from everyone being in the dark. The scum could be moving themselves from floor to floor, we don't know, the best thing we can do is try to pin everyone down, every day, on record, as being on a particular floor. I don't think that we have a good chance of using the lock to our benefit unless we at least attempt to bind the scum to something. Unless we all claim our colours every day, we will be carrying water in a bucket without a bottom. Every person we move onto the safe floor will be moved off the very next day, and the crummy part is, unless we claim ahead of time, the first inkling we have of it, will be on their corpse the next day. I mean, the extent of how badly this could go unless we do is horrifying. If people don't claim, the mafia will be running around behind the scenes undermining our plans. As we plan to lock out a floor, they cackle because they know there's only one guy on that floor. As we plan to lock out a floor we think are filled with scummy people, they cackle because they know it's got our cop in it.
You can't suggest that we should only claim when people are moved, because then the scum can fabricate their movements, and we won't know, they can move without telling us, and we won't know. There's no guarantee we will if we claim, but we have to try. If we remain unclaimed, the scum have much more reliable information than we do. I don't see this as breaking the game. I see this as the reason that voting is public. If votes were cast secretly, there would be no question of whether or not they were to be claimed publicly. It is the standard operating procedure of every game to give the scum as little wiggle room as is humanly possible. Staying in the dark might save us someone tonight, but it won't save us someone when it counts. By the end of the game, the scum will have built up a cache of moved players, so that they know who they can and cannot kill, and we don't. Perhaps you might want to wait to mass-colour-claim, but I think that unless we do it today, the scum will plausibly be able to claim just about any floor they so choose, for whatever tactical reason.
Regardless, I don't appreciate the detractors (DDD and Llama) that are not proposing some alternate topic for discussion, but expecting the room to bestow one upon them. Hopefully this post will get the ball rolling on the colour-claim so that we can move on to the game at hand. Sorry for the wall of text, for those of you that do not like them, but I felt it was necessary to condense it in one post rather than stretch it along.
In regards to Nuwen's question: Since the claimed Bellhop would be moved at the beginning of the following day, the Bellhop would claim his movement and we would then lock that floor for the next night. We could follow the Bellhop from floor to floor, but this would eliminate any possibility of creating a 'safe floor'. On the upside, if the scum are preoccupied with moving the Bellhop, everyone else will be movable according to our intentions, such that we could move as many players as we can manage onto a single floor and then gradually whittle away possibilities for scum. Frankly, the mafia is, in the long term, forced to leave the Bellhop as is, or risk the eventual bleed-out. They are presented with the choice between the 'safe floor' and the endgame scenario in which we inevitably win. This is all dependent upon a full colour claim, of course.
TDC: Does this satisfactorily answer your question? I don't think there's anything left for me to elaborate on.
As for my lynch candidate, I feel that my vote has become more well-advised since I first cast it, and I'll be staying where I am for now.
That's about it.(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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Maybe it's me, but I don't think we can do anything with a bellhop claim unless we know FL's colour. Unless anyone has any objections, I'd like to lock whatever floor she's on.
FL: You know if you click the quote button you'll get the name included. It's much easier than copy-pasting.
LF is giving me a bad feeling. I wonder why DDD is lurking.(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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TDC: It seemed like you were pushing against it for the sake of doing so should it fail, then when it went too far to stop, you were rushing to get on. It's opportunistic.
Goat: There is an intangible line that one can cross when you get angry and I feel that the sudden and extreme response he made crossed that line. Why he would get angry at Spyrex alone and not everyone attacking him makes me think something's up as well.(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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If you're attacking only particular people out of those attacking you, it's scummy.
If you're attacking only particular people because you have a personal issue with them, I want it to stop.
Either way, it doesn't enamor me with DDD. It seems simple to me. I assumed it was the scum motivation because I think he's scum.
Hi Elmo.
Is anyone else having problems loading mafiascum?(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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If you're attacking only particular people out of those attacking you, it's scummy.
If you're attacking only particular people because you have a personal issue with them, I want it to stop.
Either way, it doesn't enamor me with DDD. It seems simple to me. I assumed it was the scum motivation because I think he's scum.
Hi Elmo.
Is anyone else having problems loading mafiascum?(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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I'm not in the habit of asking people why they do things. It's not productive. Or at least, when I do, it's less to know why they do things than to see if they answer. It wasn't your plan, it was my plan, dang it, and you were saying it wasn't good, and gradually shifted over to support it as everyone else did the same. I never said you were suspicious if you were or weren't green, because there's scum motivations from both perspectives, but if we find out which one you may have, it'll be helpful later. The reason WHY I wanted to have the colour claim before the bellhop claim is that now the scum frigging know what colour to claim to make their stories plausible. The fact that you were fighting that makes me suspicious of you. The fact that you're trying to turn it around on me makes me angry. Had you claimed green or not BEFORE FL had claimed, we might have something, but now it's all moot. Now we can't sort fact from fiction at all. If you are scum, it's in your best interest to have the Bellhop claim before any colour claiming.
Any colour claims we try now are useless, unless you want to gamble on people being evenly distributed amongst the floors. Frigging stuff I was trying to keep down to see if the scum might claim without knowing. Frick.(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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Yes, but before you know it's green, you don't know what to claim, since you apparently can't see the future. Now you know it's green, you do know what to claim. Everyone does. It's not complex.(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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Like I said, I figured if I kept going, the scum might not realise, but it's not worth keeping up if people aren't going to. You didn't realise, and I had to spell it out, so it might have worked.(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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I didn't vote TDC.
I was pushing for a colour-claim before a Bellhop could claim so that the scum wouldn't alter their claim to fit with the Bellhop's colour. When the Bellhop claimed, that kind of became moot. Since no one was saying anything about it, I figured if I could push it really quickly and get it through, we might just get real claims from people. When TDC started to attack that, and other people started to express dislike for the idea on a whole, it stopped being a good idea to push it, and I kind of exploded in that post about it because the town as a whole just made it harder to get the plan to work smoothly. I spent a few posts explaining this to TDC, and then I admitted that on an individual basis it was a bad idea to follow me, but if we'd all gone along, the scum would've had no other choice.
Seems clear to me.(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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Goat, you know as well as I do that on page two, random bandwagoning and lol reactions is the pinnacle of scumhunting. If someone doesn't do it, we sit around in a circle staring attentively at eachother's faces. I've since provided more explanation. I'm not sure if you're calling me out for something I did, or if you're attacking SpyreX, and the ambiguity bothers me.
At the same time, SpyreX, ZazieR was explaining actions from more than a week ago. Since he's rereading now, at least give him a chance to get a stance, or change his vote. I don't like how you jump on the person that's least able to defend themselves.(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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Normally, he might choose to just stay on it without explanation or offer the explanation himself. If you say that he must explain immediately or you'll wagon him to death, guess which he'll choose.(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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I like to see how people react without telling them how they should. Except when I don't. Point is, as far as I'm concerned, this was a time for natural, and once it's become artificial, the degree to which it is matters less than stopping you from going down a route that the town does not need to go down.SpyreX wrote:Thats not what I'm getting at exactly. Saying I've altered the natural course of events in such a fashion alters them even moreso. Which is even odder because I think a vote after said shenanigans is fairly natural. :P
Although, overall I'm fine with this conversation because this game needs a swift kick to get some movement done before we start getting deadlineitis.
Patrick: I'd really love if people could tell me what they're suspicious of rather than just telling me that I am. I'm all for unexplained votes, but I can't defend against something I don't know about. I'm pretty sure I've explained why I was still pushing for the colour-claim, what else is there?
Also, it would probably be beneficial for you to cast a vote considering the looming deadline.
DDD has stopped posting. It's not easy to strengthen a wagon when he's not posting. People, either get on this wagon so we're doing something, or tell me why you have a better option. I don't like the number of people detracting from this wagon but adding nothing of their own (it's more than three).
Nuwen is also lurking. I don't think it means anything, since I've never known her to lurk, ever.
Elmo is posting more infrequently than I would expect at this juncture. You're supposed to be helpful. >:(
Just about the only people I'm satisfied with the activity from are SpyreX, Goat, and TDC.(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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I said at the time it was either a vendetta or scummy. That said, I acknowledge the wagon isn't made of steel, but it's better than the alternative nothing.
Mostly Elmo and ZazieR aren't doing anything. That has a small negative effect. The other folk are just shooting things down. In my eyes, that's more unhelpful.
Maybe I should find another wagon, but if the new one isn't any stronger, is it a good idea? I don't really think so. If I were being IS, and finding townies, I'd be having an easy time, but that's not very popular these days.(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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Nuwen: DDD is my perennial candidate. I don't really have a reason other than he's lurking and annoys me. If he were actually interested in repelling suspicion and actively helping, I don't think he'd be lurking. Somehow him telling me my case is terrible and that's why he's not posting doesn't mesh with my idea of townie play. After that I pick LF, because claiming apathy is a cop out.
I'm not sure if you missed my very long explanation on why I was pushing the colour-claim. It was very much a now-or-never situation. If you're fine with never, then that's your thing.
Since no one really responded to what I was hoping, does anyone mind terribly if I start hunting for townies? Since we have random blocking and protection, it might not be so prone to the negatives.
DDD: Why do you think you were the only one to call me on the issue of "passing the buck"? Also, I didn't remember Goat doing that. I sort of glaze over sometimes when a whole bunch happens while I'm gone. It's why I try to stay active.
Final question for Nuwen, what do you mean, where's the vote? I'm pretty sure I was already voting for him at the time.
This is really the last bit, people who've played with ZazieR before might be able to tell me, does he usually lurk? I've sort of let it be for now because he seems like a lurker in general by personality.(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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As far as I can tell, locking down scum FL and town FL both have benefits, so I don't see it as a great and mighty problem. As far as her alignment, FL is more impulsive than any three of us put together as either alignment, I don't think she's done anything yet that means anything. That said, I was still majorly bamboozled last time she was scum in a game with me. That's right, bamboozled.(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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It seems like this game has lurkers and townies. Goat is town, Patrick is (always) town, SpyreX seems townish, TDC is town, Nuwen is probably townish (not that I can read her for anything), forbiddanlight's neutral, DDD is becoming neutral as he bothers to post, Elmo's not posting, Batt's not posting, ZazieR's not posting, LlamaFluff is scummy.
Wheeeeeeee.(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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This page is not fun for me.
I feel like I've gone over this every page for the last five. Could you guys explain to me what I need to expand on? What 'trap' are you both talking about? I was trying to get honesty out of people before they woke up, where was the trap? I'm really quite annoyed that people are angry at me for trying to get this gamegoingsomewhere. You're all happy to criticise people doing nothing, but seem to view wagons you disagree with as worse.
Walrus Song:
Half past twelve
And I'm read the game in my flat all alone
How I hate to spend the evening on my own
Autumn winds
Blowing outside the window as I look around the room
And it makes me so depressed to see the gloom
There's not a soul out there
No one to hear my prayer
Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! Yos after midnight!
Won't somebody help me chase the lurkers away
Gimme gimme gimme Yos after midnight
Take me through the darkness to the break of the day
Mafia pros
Find the end of the rainbow, with their fortune to win
It's so different from the world I'm living in
Tired of Mafia
I open the window and I gaze into the night
But there's nothing there to see, no one in sight
There's not a soul out there
No one to hear my prayer
Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! Yos after midnight!
Won't somebody help me chase the lurkers away
Gimme gimme gimme Yos after midnight
Take me through the darkness to the break of the day
Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! Yos after midnight!
Won't somebody help me chase the lurkers away
Gimme gimme gimme Yos after midnight
Take me through the darkness to the break of the day
There's not a soul out there
No one to hear my prayer
Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! Yos after midnight!
Won't somebody help me chase the lurkers away
Gimme gimme gimme Yos after midnight
Take me through the darkness to the break of the day
Gimme! Gimme! Gimme! Yos after midnight!
Won't somebody help me chase the lurkers away
Gimme gimme gimme Yos after midnight
Take me through the darkness to the break of the day(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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So, if someone claimed green now, would you assume they were locked in for tonight? Tomorrow night? The night after that? It destroys the possibility to actually account for where people are.LlamaFluff wrote:If I understand right this is what you were talking about
This is basically you saying that you wanted a color claim so scum would have to fit their claim to a color later, instead of having both freedoms. I still however fail to see how this small advantage outweighs the fact that if a complete claim went through, that scum would know everyones location.Lord Gurgi wrote:I was pushing for a colour-claim before a Bellhop could claim so that the scum wouldn't alter their claim to fit with the Bellhop's colour. When the Bellhop claimed, that kind of became moot. Since no one was saying anything about it, I figured if I could push it really quickly and get it through, we might just get real claims from people.
Im not sure if im just missing something here or what, but the cons seem to outweigh the pros by a whole lot.(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough-
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