Mini 1090: Of Rogues and Curses ~ Game Over

[Exe]

Vote:Gandalf

because everyone knows Day Cop is a scum role.

[Exe]

Alright so let's see what's happened so far.

Tans jump on Nocase seems contrived: Vote-hopping is not really a tell--even late game it's weak--and it really seems more like Tans doesn't like being voted for. His questioning of VPB shows this as well.

Unvote. Vote: Tans

Uite: calling Troll's style anti-town is pointless. Argue playstyle post-game, in the meantime tell us who you find scummy. What you are doing is just distracting. It would be extremely useful for you to tell us of actual reads on players.

@Mariyta: Do you have anything to comment on other than the Fake DK and defending Tans?

[Exe]

Do you really want him to continue doing that?

No, I don't want him to continue not posting content. But repeatedly addressing the issue as anti-town is just as detrimental to your own content posting.

[Exe]

Alright so let's see what's happened so far.

Tans jump on Nocase seems contrived: Vote-hopping is not really a tell--even late game it's weak--and it really seems more like Tans doesn't like being voted for. His questioning of VPB shows this as well.

Unvote. Vote: Tans

Uite: calling Troll's style anti-town is pointless. Argue playstyle post-game, in the meantime tell us who you find scummy. What you are doing is just distracting. It would be extremely useful for you to tell us of actual reads on players.

@Mariyta: Do you have anything to comment on other than the Fake DK and defending Tans?

Quoted the content I posted.
That's a pretty far reach with the hypocrisy argument there. Your response is a bit overly defensive.
Plus, you're missing the point. I am accusing you of sticking to an easy topic when there are other more relevant things to discuss.

[Exe]

@Vi: Mariyta is on the higher end of my suspects, however I was planning on seeing what his next post was, hence my question to him. The unvote in the middle of a bunch of major posts without any real comment on the events at hand was bad. I've been waiting to see where he plans to go with his next post.

@Uite: Of course I was reading the game. Funny you ask, since the reason I quoted my exact post was because you called me out on not posting content even though it was right there in that post. However, this argument seems to be veering towards pettiness, so I will simply ask you another more relevant question.
What makes you think Vi and VPB are scummy?

[Exe]

@Utie: I wanted to know the answer to the question. It was relevant to my read on you.

@Zorb: I am not familiar with tanstalas play, unless I've forgotten a game with him.
In regards to Gandalf, he's being as useless as ever. Would like to see more content out of him, but I've yet to see a game where he didn't spend half the time goofing off, regardless of alignment.

[Exe]

Seems odd to me that Xvart and Tans both aren't voting anyone although it seems as though both of them have suspicions on players.

I'm still comfortable with my vote on Tans. Mariyta isn't a bad lynch however, and the "I have no idea what to do," attitude is crap. Town rarely have trouble finding

something

to pursue, whereas scum are afraid of following the wrong path. Same applies to Xvart really though: I'd say both Mar and Xvart need to stop faffing about and take a stand.

FoS

on both.

[Exe]

C3) When voting Mariyta, he admits to blatant bandwagoning... check his post right before his vote, he litterally says "I'm going to see if this case has any merit" and jumps on the wagon.

I was actually wondering about this point as well, but for a different reason, between his "I'm going to check Mariyta's ISO" and his "Vote" post 3 minutes elapsed, which I thought kind of quick. Granted gandalf could be a speed reader and typist, but 3 minutes to read the posts, think about the posts, come to a conclusion then the post where he votes...

It's not like this is a 20 page thread though...if it takes you more than 3 minutes to read anyone's posts at this point, I would suggest you go back to Hooked on Phonics.

In your eyes I am scum because:
a)I think that vote hopping might be a tell
b)I don't like being voted for
c)I question people as to why they voted for me

Let's rephrase this, shall we?

I think you are scum because:
a) You made a tell out of nothing, aka trying to throw suspicion on someone
b) You don't like being voted for, because you are afraid of dying...because you are scum
c) You spend more time questioning people as to why they voted for you than actually scumhunting. In fact, your only case on me now comes from me voting you.


In other reads:
Gandalf seems slightly more pro-town than usual.
@Zorblag: You do a whole lot of analysis in your posts. However, a lot of it is very safe: questioning, rather than accusing or pressuring. Are you afraid of taking too strong a stand?
Mothrax gains scumbuddy points if Mariyta is scum for trying to blatantly derail the mariyta wagon.

[Exe]

Uite's vote of Xvart makes sense, however I don't really feel as though the claim was saving enough to deserve an unvote of Mariyta, based on his previous attitude. Worth noting if Mariyta ultimately flips scum.

Alright, Mothrax is really suspicious at this point.

@troll: no, I do not have a town read on mariyta at this point. I don't think I ever implied as such. I just think gandalf is more likely to be scum.

Besides the fact that the case he posted on Gandalf was crap, this is a huge backtrack. His case was a blatant chainsaw defense of Mariyta.
His ISO isn't really any better. A gut vote on VPB while suggesting in his 3rd post that he is still random voting. Stinks of scum.

I'll give Tans some time to prove himself to me.

Unvote. Vote: Mothrax

This is a vote that's based on the fact that the mariyta wagon is potentially dying. However, Mariyta has done nothing to clear himself, and if he returns to L-1 I have no problem hammering.

[Exe]

@Exe - I find it curious that you moved your vote to mothrax while saying if Mariyta gets back to L-1 you will hammer, well, she is only at L-2, why not put your vote on her if you think she is so scummy? Instead you decide to start a brand new wagon.

Do you think mothrax or Mariyta is more scummy at this point?

Easy answer. Mothrax. Hence, my vote is on Mothrax.

[Exe]

Alright, Mariyta wagon is a go. The zero flavor thing is really eating at me...something is fishy about that.

Let's lynch this scum.

Unvote. Vote: Mariyta

[Exe]

Alright, Mariyta wagon is a go. The zero flavor thing is really eating at me...something is fishy about that.

SCUMMY.

I did tell you that I would be hammering.

[Exe]

In fact, in quite a few of your posts, you seem to think Mothrax is more scummy, yet you claim the hammer on me? Why?

Do you read the thread? I already said I'd be willing to hammer. That was just before I also explained my Mothrax vote.

[Exe]

Oh, I forgot to count Inhim's vote. That works.

Unvote.

Maritya's stupid "I have no flavor," really seems like a VI mistake after actually claiming flavor a few posts later. Next time, just pay attention please?

Vote: Mothrax

Back to the scum who's trying to lurk his way through the end of D1.

[Exe]

Unvote.

Maritya's stupid "I have no flavor," really seems like a VI mistake after actually claiming flavor a few posts later. Next time, just pay attention please?

VI is not applicable here.

You said "I have no flavor" when you have flavor. You're either scum-slipping or you just don't know what the hell flavor is.

[Exe]

I already answered that, and it doesn't make me a VI. VIs play consistently bad. I'm having a bad game, yes. But until I play this shitty in multiple games, you have no right to call me a VI.

VI doesn't have to play bad every game.

[Exe]

Sorry, I've been falling behind with this game lately. Let's see here.

Tans ties between me, VPB, and Gandalf are a huge reach. I don't know if I believe he's really genuine in it. Like that I'm linked to Gandalf just because I think he's been pro-town: Because, you know, scum would definitely overtly state that their scum-buddies are pro-town. That seems likely.

Mariyta, stop trying to parrot VPB's "pre-flip connections" argument. Mothrax jumped in to attack Gandalf in order to derail the wagon on you. I sense an ulterior motive: do you really think he just happened to find Gandalf scummy AND find you townie, and gandalf just happened to be on your wagon? Considering that his Gandalf case was crap anyways, I sense a false effort from Mothrax. His motivation does not seem pro-town to me in the least. Hence, my vote is on Mothrax.
Also Mariyta, not having your vote on someone suggests that you are being cautious. Scum have a lot more incentive to be cautious than town.

Xvart is rapidly rising on my suspect list. His post 268 shows a lot of buddying and not much real scum-hunting. I would support an Xvart lynch if Mothrax won't be lynched.

[Exe]

@Mothrax: I'm aware that you SAY your whole case was built around his hypocrisy. However, I saw chainsaw defense.

[Exe]

How can it be chainsaw defense when you don't know any alignments yet. You scum this game Exe?

I'm telling you how it reads to me. I don't see his jump on Gandalf and attempt to derail the wagon as a logical pro-town move. Simplest explanation would be chainsaw defense, out of possible scum-motives.

[Exe]

Got a prod. Sorry, meant to post yesterday but never ended up having time. Will post today once I finish up some of the work I have to get done.

[Exe]

Real quick while I am here: the wagon on me is mediocre at best. Xvart and Mothrax are much better candidates, both have posted very little content.
VPB expects me to be attacking the people on my wagon heavily, but that's just because he played a game with me where I was pissed off by someone who was repeatedly insulting me.
And Tans whole case on me is OMGUS. Not sure if it's scum or town, but either way a hugely biased read. And his whole case seems to be based on me, VPB, and gandalf as a scum-team, which is just silly.

Do I need to claim? Or can we not waste me, and actually lynch scum instead?

@Vi: What in particular are you questioning regarding that quote? I said something almost identical in a town game, and I should be able to find the quote.

[Exe]

Do you really think that putting DS at L-1 is scummy? In what way? Are you suggesting I am making it easy for scum to hammer? If so, then wouldn't that also make it easy for us to discover a quick-hammering scum?

Quoted for your convenience.

[Exe]

Are you going to say that tanstalas is scum, or is this just a half-done attempt at deflection.

I'm not really sure about Tans scum anymore. His tone and his case against me reads as misguided town. My point here though is that his case is weak, and is based mostly on OMGUS feelings.

You should know when to claim; Troll has been kind enough to point it out earlier in the thread.

Well I don't feel like the case on me merits a lynch yet, and so I see no reason to claim unless I start being hounded for it. The less information given, the better.

Well, you've just shown that you argue indep. of alignment that L-1 votes are fine because scummy quickhammers don't happen. I -used- to believe that, and VP Baltar knows why I now think that's wrong; but theory issues aside that doesn't mesh at all with how you tried to pull a scummy quickhammer on Mariyta. (Your justification of "well I said it was coming" is hardly plausible.)

No, I never said that scummy quickhammers never happen. I argue that scummy quickhammers aren't a threat. If they happen, we catch scum. Hence, most scum stay away from hammering out of the blue.
If I were scum, and had been attempting to quickhammer Mariyta for an easy lynch, I would probably be lynched for it. I mean, don't you agree that even now my "quick" hammer on Mariyta is a major basis for the wagon on me? Hence, my point is made.
In regards to me trying to pull a quick hammer, that is simply not the case. Mariyta was scummy, his claim even more so, and I planned to hammer for it. It was as simple as that.

More later.

[Exe]

In the second quote, you're ignoring the context. We were at a deadline lynch, I was expressing dismay at having to lynch a bad target at the deadline. That situation is not the same as this one.

[Exe]

I would say you were feigning expressing dismay at "having" to lynch TL, since he was town and you were scum - also you still had 3 days.

Regardless, both posts were talking about you claiming that you would hammer if someone got to L-1, in this game I do not know your alignment - in the hospital game I know you were scum. The only thing I can think of as to why you would even say that would be to justify it the next day after you quickhammered saying "Well, I said if they got to L-1 I would hammer"

All of this aside, the point is that me claiming the hammer is not a scum meta. You found a scum game where I did it: bravo. I do it based on what I feel like doing, not based on alignment, so the argument is null.

I would like to redirect you to post #401 where I answered Gandalf. My entire case on you and Gandalf is not dependent on all of you being scum. My case on VBP though I would agree hinges on you and Gandalf flipping scum.

This doesn't change the fact that your case on me is mostly OMGUS, and therefore very weak.

Also, the above isn't really that much of a tell, however Mariyta is a HER and it has been pointed out multiple times this game, and twice that I can remember directed at you personally by Gandalf in his post #197 and Mariyta in her post #228. I know that town can be lazy - but I find that scum skim games more than town and miss little things.

This is fluff. So Mariyta is a girl. It's the internet, and a forum, when I type, the male pronoun is my go-to. This

really

sounds like you're trying to make something out of nothing. Was it you who was accused of that previously in this game?

I'm not really sold on the 'when would Exe-scum hammer' meta. Seems kind of irrelevant too much of a variable between mood/games to be considered. However, his 'let's cut off Mariyta's head and drink her blooooooooooood!' followed two seconds later by 'nah, I don't like the Mariyta wagon now that it's falling apart' is completely scummy and worth lynching over today.

I don't see how you get this interpretation from my actions. Let me go over what happened.

I preferred a Mothrax lynch. Mariyta, however, was very scummy as well and was a good lynch.
Since I preferred the Mothrax lynch, I did not switch my vote at first but said that I wouldn't fight the Mariyta lynch if she made it to L-1.
She did (and with a horrible claim) and so I voted with the expectation of hammering.
Then, she was given time to explain her claim, and it became obvious that she was clearly just making a really stupid mistake and actually had the flavor we had asked for, so when it wasn't a lynch, I unvoted and returned to my preferred lynch, which is the hugely scummy Mothrax.

It's pretty straightforward, and I don't see how it's really any different than most of the other people who unvoted Mariyta after she had revealed her flavor.

Preview Edit: Will read Xvart and Gandalf's posts later. This was written just before them.

[Exe]

From your statement, you appear to have premonition that Mariyta is going to flip town and that is the reason you would have been lynched the next day. If Mariyta flips scum does you being lynched the next day still hold true?

This question poses a false dichotomy. If I was scum and quickhammering, the logical conclusion would be that Mariyta is town (else why would scum quickhammer?). So yes, if I was scum and quickhammering, I would probably be quickhammering a townie and be subsequently caught for it. If Mariyta flipped scum, then it would be an entirely different situation, and I am not sure what would've happened afterwards.

Have you ever said something like what Tans quotes as town? If so, why did you not address that but instead tried to undermine the argument by some loose context which appears to not be entirely accurate?

First of all, I don't see how my context is either "loose" or "not accurate." The situation in Hospital Madness Mafia was extremely different than this one, and if you disagree you're insane.
Second of all, I'm not sure if I've ever explicitly claimed the hammer in any other games, but I could go trudge through them to find out. Seeing as I personally know that it's not meta-related, I really feel like this is a waste of time, but if you insist I can see if I have claimed hammer before.

Claim incoming. Going to post it in my next post in order to not lose it in the Wall-o-Text.

[Exe]

I am a Belly-Dancer (unique).

I am a daughter of the Ungrika Clan and have been forced from my homeland by the Servika, etc.
I have the right to speak my mind and cast my vote.
I also have taken up the pursuit of rooting out the Servika males from the caravan. Each night I can chose a player, and if they are male I get to communicate with them at night. If we both survive a second night, I also learn any actions taken by them. If I survive a 3rd night, I learn their actions and who they targeted.

It's basically a neighborizor/eventual tracker role, but it only works on males.

[Exe]

Interesting new attitude coming from Troll here. Coincidence that he is the next likely lynch candidate? I don't think so.

f he was ready to hammer Mariyta then he'd have no reason not to leave his vote there after the attempt;

This point in particular is crap, as it completely ignores my entire point. Taking my vote off of Mariyta had to do with the fact that my read changed from scum to VI after her "well i do have flavor, I just didn't understand how it could be important."

[Exe]

Xvart's claimed "slip" is a blatant misrep. Let's look at my actual quote shall we?

If I were scum, and had been attempting to quickhammer Mariyta for an easy lynch, I would probably be lynched for it.

If I were scum AND if I had been attempting to quickhammer Mariyta for an easy lynch....see how that conditional statement suggests that I would be lynched IF Mariyta was town? I made absolutely no statement concerning whether or not Mariyta was actually town or scum, so your entire point is pretty much false.

Please, learn to read.

In other news,

Furthermore, in your previous post you say it isn't scum meta and that you do based on the situation and now you are saying you don't know if you have ever done it as town. So what's the difference here?

Those are not contradictory in the least. I said that claiming a hammer isn't based on me being scum. My reasoning for claiming it in the one scum game that was presented was unrelated to me being scum. Therefore, regardless of whether or not I have done it as town before this time, the meta is inaccurate.

[Exe]

Now here we clearly see you attempting to quicklynch someone, but the fact is that whether you're scum or not is irrelevant - you would get lynched anyway. So why do it in the first place? There's even less Town motivation for your action than there is scum motivation.

I see this question from two perspectives.
From a strategy/theory perspective, I want to point out that I think a quick game is a game in favor of town. Fast lynches mean scum have less time to develop a safe position.
However, for the perspective of this particular game, I still don't feel that I was attempting to quicklynch anyone. As I've said multiple times, I found both Mothrax and Mariyta scummy. Mothrax was my preferred lynch, however I would support a Mariyta lynch if it was the leading wagon. Since it hit L-1, I wasn't going to fight it to lynch a scummy person.

[Exe]

i don't know what to make of this. i really, really, really don't like the idea that the mod can just generate a full role pm on demand. it renders l-1 claims meaningless.

unvote. vote: mothrax.

still down with an exe lynch if people are willing to take a leap of faith.

I can confirm my role D2.

[Exe]

Can you explain this? I really do not agree with that statement at all, unless the game stalls I think the days should go as long as possible so we can get the most information we can to have an informed lynch. The only way a quick game/quick lynches would hinder scum would be if they had the ability to daychat. Do you have a daychat in this game Exe? Hmmmm?

You want to discuss mafia theory? Go to MD. But it's my belief that slower games do not give "more information" but instead allow scum to fill the thread with a more calculated, well reasoned response.
It's pretty simple. Town should be playing pro-town by nature, so their nature should be effective, therefore they don't need time to think about their actions.
Scum are the only people who need time to find a pro-town position.

Now can we bring this game back to this game? I'd like to see a little more analysis on Rouges and Curses mafia and less on Hospital Madness Mafia and/or theory.

Speaking of which, Mothrax is still doing nothing. His last post was nothing more than prod avoidance.

[Exe]

You aren't answering Troll's point, though - why claim the hammer specifically instead of putting your vote on someone you think is scummy WHEN you think that person is scummy?

I don't understand how these two things are at all exclusive. I

had

my vote on someone who I thought was scummy, when that person was scummy. I had my vote on Mothrax.

Sadly, I only get 1 vote. I specifically offered to hammer Mariyta

if the wagon had support

.
The point was, I wasn't obstinate in my belief that Mothrax should be the lynch.
I was willing to lynch Mariyta as well, but preferred Mothrax.
How many times do I have keep repeating this?

Oh and, @your quick games argument, I've yet to see a slow drawn-out game go well for the town, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Exe]

@Vi & VPB: You both pretty much asked the same question, so here, I'll explain again.

Why was I specifically calling a hammer? Because I was for Mothrax unless my vote was a deciding factor in a Mariyta lynch. With both of them scummy, I saw no reason to throw an L-1 on Mariyta if there was any chance she wouldn't be lynched, as I could instead continue pushing Mothrax's lynch instead. Therefore, I saw no reason to join the wagon unless doing so meant lynching Mariyta.

Is this still not clear? I'm really not sure how else I can explain this anymore. I thought it was pretty clear.

[Exe]

Also, Exe posted a couple of times when he came back before claiming. May have been asking for flavor.

Huh?

Exe was away from the thread, we got him to claim range. He comes back, makes a couple of posts, and then claims.

Actually, whoa.

Exe's 25 and 26 were posted within the same minute. Crafting a claim, ready to claim from the getgo? Hmm, part of me says his actions are town justified, but part of me also wants to say he was waiting for that last piece of flavor to add from the mod.

I posted my role as soon as I got back and saw that a claim had been requested. Your attempt to make it appear that I was biding my time is pretty contrived seeing as my first posts after the demand for a claim were the ones in which I claimed.

And the reason the posts were a minute apart is because I typed out the claim, and then decided to split up the posts.

[Exe]

@Vi: No, that's not all. Just posted quick before going to class.

Xvart continues to misconstrue points of mine, IMO. As here:

The first implies that you don't only do it as scum but based on your mood (as town or scum). The next says you don't know if you have ever done it as town. While they are not directly contradictory (i.e. IF x THEN ~x) they are conflicting. And the fact that you didn't initially say it was something you have done that varies not based on alignment compounds my suspicion. You only brought that up after the fact.

They are neither contradictory nor conflicting, however Xvart keeps just slightly misrepresenting my posts. In my first post, I did not say anything about having done it multiple times. My quote ("I do it based on what I feel like doing, not based on alignment") is making the point that my decision to claim hammer

was not based on my alignment at the time

. My hammer claim was based entirely on the current situation of the game at that time. That's it.

I do not wish to entertain any future questions about other games. Meta discussions are trivial and stupid, and I've been unfairly lynched over them before. Don't pretend to think you understand my playstyle from game to game: This game is an island, play it as such.

@Tans: Post 492 was a pretty strong push against the mothrax lynch. You also clearly misrepresent the case on Mothrax as one based on lurking. Yeah, the lurking hurt, but it was the attitude and content of the posts that hit me (and I assume, many of those on the wagon) as scummy. The link between you and Mothrax is noted, and it definitely makes me want to see the Mothrax flip.

@VPB: Regarding your question from 468, frankly yes. Mariyta was being pressed pretty hard by many of the players at that time, and I couldn't honestly find much to ask her aside from what had already been said.

@Uite: Pretty much what VPB said: I don't think either of your suspects are viable lynches, so what about the rest of the players?

[Exe]

Will be gone til tomorrow. Packing and heading home for the holidays.

[Exe]

Really? Meh, I just couldn't get into this game for some reason. That's probably why I was lynched. Well, hopefully you'll actually lynch scum D2.

This case on me is real weak by the way. Talk about some bandwagoning scum. The only people who have even been doing anything other than parroting are basically VPB and Vi.

[Exe]

I also like that you guys lynched the only confirmable role we know about right now.

[Exe]

Troll's buses were the only choice he had after Xvart and I played bad games xD

[Exe]

Great setup Ythill, thanks for modding.