Mini 1090: Of Rogues and Curses ~ Game Over

[Vi]

*dramatic music*
IN BEFORE THE VOTE *post*
*victory dance*

(going to make this EXTREMELY CLEAR but I wouldn't do anything like what's shown in the vid, ever.)

---

I really want to say Mariyta is scum for making a whole lot of nothing out of... nothing. (6 and beyond)

I think this is my first time playing with nocase and gandalf. I'm already glad they're here.

I think that Troll is overstating the Town-tell-ness of the cheeseclaim. [advicedog]CLAIM DAYCOP PAGE 1 / INCITE FLAMES OF WRATH[/advicedog] only happens with really terrible Townies hanging around, and I don't think we have any of those ITT. (If you disagree, please keep me in my delusion.)

mothrax - Why is VP Baltar scum enough to break you out of the RV cycle? (which, BTW, annoys everyone)

On a related subject:

Vote: Uite

(L-6)
Post 28 looks like it's on the edge of what I did to Troll as scum the first time I played with him - attack his completely arbitrary and informationless RV method. It's a very easy way to start putting suspicion on someone.

[Vi]

Mothrax is voting me on gut but is hinting at being in the RVS still. whooooo

Thank you for getting to this before I did.
Cut by mothrax: I hope you're scum, because your posts look the part.

On to things that make sense:

@Vi - Utie's move is scummier than Mariyta to you?

Well,

I'm kind of confused about what I'm making nothing out of. Aside from thinking gandalf is full of it and wondering if nocase was seriously voting based on his claim, I haven't really said a whole lot.

I was giving Mariyta something of a reprieve because I thought it made sense that she could be coming from a concerned Town position, at least until this quote.

Gandalf-Daycop is full of it?

Well no kidding!

And with that in mind, nocase nonrandomly voting based on the claim? Does it even matter?
It could have been going along with the joke,

or

it could have been something

dark

and

sinister

, something

Pure Evil

that would place the hapless Zorblag at L-5 and

ensure a scum victory

. And I'm afraid it's completely impossible to tell the difference or even determine which one is more likely. [/sarcasm]
And your idea of a defense is that if nothing else you haven't said anything

more

than that?

Should have gone with FPMH.

Unvote: Uite
Vote: Mariyta

(L-6, I think)

@nocase: The avatar was familiar but I only just now got what your name was supposed to mean. Still, don't stop the jokes. It makes all the difference.

[Vi]

Defense, self-justification, whichever words you care to use.

[Vi]

What's your take on the stuff that came after that, tans?

[Vi]

Re: Troll pushing me as a better Notorious Scum suspect than himself - It's fluff. Both Troll and VP Baltar have been burned by me-scum at least once in the recent past. While bringing it up was one of those moments, I don't think either of them needed the reminding. Plus, VP Baltar IS kind of right that Troll is probably harder to catch than me. And if it really WAS some kind of Planting the Seed of Doubt maneuver, there were a lot of ways to do it that aren't so thinly veiled and

wouldn't

have backfired terribly.

Re: "P.S. 'his'" - That would be nocase specifying a gender, not a secret scum communication on a level you can only barely comprehend.

Your nocase case (case case nocase case case) is bad and you should feel bad. Serious votes lynch Town but they lynch scum more often than early jokevotes. Plus votehopping, especially on Page 2, isn't a scumtell. Last, I suppose if you voted nocase for your findings, you would have cast two serious votes and found yourself guilty of exactly what you were accusing nocase of.

Given the above I'm having a hard time buying your comment that I'm reading into Mariyta's posts way too much.

----

But I'm not you, and you're not me, so why do you consider me as having the same motivation you did back then?

Well, it is/was our first times playing with Troll, and we were latching on to the same reasons, and I was scum in that game, so etc.
And from what I've seen of you, so far I don't think you're a whole lot different from me tbh.

To speed things up, I'll answer the non-contestable points for Troll. He'll vote the first player alphabetically who has not posted until everyone has posted, and THEN start laying real votes down (or more likely unvote and wait to put a real vote down). I trust he would do this in any game as any alignment; arguing that it's a bad idea is probably best left for postgame or MD. This is partly why mothrax's jump to VP Baltar is noticeable; Troll will wait until everyone has posted to leave the method but mothrax didn't bother.

[Vi]

Utie

We are going to fight to the death about the proper way to spell Vega's name.

[Vi]

Daykill: Vi

Not no more we ain't.

I meant "fight to the death" in a friendly, noncombative, but still somehow violent manner

...oh wait that's what you did

---

nocase's reason for voting you could probably be inferred by the "dammit vi" he immediately posted afterward, suggesting that I had just said why and beaten him to it. Or it could be inferred from how nocase refers to what Exe did, which you did on a greater scale.

52 is obviously a case even if there was no vote attached. Saying it isn't is just denial of the obvious. You should feel bad partly because of that and partly because your case isn't good as outlined previously.

There are a number of decent reasons scum may not want to comment on large eye-catching arguments inthread. For Town those are opportunities to get the alignments of the people involved - especially early on - while scum don't want that sort of thing to occur.

---

Uite: We've established that Troll's vote method is anti-Town, then. It's not going to change. Why keep harping on it?

[Vi]

Okay.

[Vi]

I meant "fight to the death" in a friendly, noncombative, but still somehow violent manner

Quiet! You're dead. The rules say stop talking now and enjoy your dirt nap.

Obligatory response in reference to rogues and curses

Cut: Etc.

[Vi]

I don't really have solid reads yet, though at the moment I'm

thinking the most awesome people in the game are within the group

of VP Baltar and Vi. Zorblag by association through Vi.

Fixed for what you should have said. I'm curious as to why you dislike me and VP Baltar in particular, since we're actually

trying

and pressuring scummy people.
If you're concerned about us being "too friendly", all three of us have played together before, share a history, and generally like each other; it's not like we're mutually buddying to each other.

Exe: What do you think of a Mariyta vote?

@inHim: I'd swap Exe and Uite atm tbh. Have you played with tanstalas before?

Also also, surviving mortal danger like I did a page ago calls for a traditional Gypsy song of expressive feelings~

[Vi]

but I ask someone a question, I expect them to answer it. If someone answers it in their stead, that muddies things up and makes it less useful.

To speed things up, I'll answer the

non-contestable

points for Troll.

[etc.]

And of course I'm flattered by the comparison to Vi, but I think it's unfair. I don't know enough about his playstyle,

and I assume he doesn't about mine,

to be able to make such a comparison. Therefore the accusation looks unfounded to me, and I think everyone can agree that unfounded accusations are scummy.

Well, it is/was our first times playing with Troll, and we were latching on to the same reasons, and I was scum in that game, so etc.
And from what I've seen of you, so far I don't think you're a whole lot different from me tbh.

One can further argue that playstyle doesn't have much to do with it, but etc.

[Vi]

VP Baltar's daykill on VI is somewhat clever if you're aware of the players involved. If I've done this

right

wrong you'll see why in just a bit.

I guess it was only a matter of time before I had to

Daykill: Trollblag

The votes for

[Mariyta]

are fine at this point.

Is this as close as you get to actively pushing against someone, or is this a passive "eh let's go for it"?

---

I would contest that it does, at least in this case. I like to question when I see something worth questioning, to help me understand what's going on. That's very different from trying to make someone look suspicious, which is what you accused me of.

So do I! Good to see I wasn't far off after all.~

[Vi]

So do I! Good to see I wasn't far off after all.~

You're going to have to explain this one more, I'm not completely following.

Also, I'm curious, how do you know about my playstyle? Is it from this game alone, or have you seen some of my other games as well?

Actually, looking around the GTKAS forum. I thought I saw a resemblance.

[Vi]

Actually, looking around the GTKAS forum. I thought I saw a resemblance.

That's interesting, because I don't think I've posted any game related stuff there. And I still don't quite get what you meant in post #103.

Personality.
Whenever you see a tilde you can ambiguously assume that I'm making light of the situation. In this particular case, this argument is becoming/has become stale and irrelevant (whether you see that or not) and I resorted to mildly trolling you.

[Vi]

ITT, xvart is also scum. xvart's new name is Flavio to go along with being scum with Mariyta.

[Vi]

ITT, xvart is also scum. xvart's new name is Flavio to go along with being scum with Mariyta.

Do your reads always suck this bad? Or is this just a special game?

But do go on. Tell me why xvart is Town.

[Vi]

you're both being anti-town. now let's hold hands and lynch tans.

Better idea: Lynch Mariyta instead.

Tanstalas should get some kind of reprieve for changing to a better av if nothing else.

@xvart: Your posts are logical and solid. You seem to care about actually finding scum. To me, that says you're town.

[

citation needed

]

[Vi]

Do your reads always suck this bad? Or is this just a special game?

que? You actually do need to give a reason for this read, because I don't really see anything town from xvart at this point.

Already did.

@xvart: Your posts are logical and solid. You seem to care about actually finding scum. To me, that says you're town.

[

citation needed

]

in fact, Unvote, Vote: xvart

This is partly because I think your attack of Uite is odd.

[...]

His suspicions of Vi and Troll are much less grounded, but he really just comes across as wound far too tight for his own good rather than scum looking for a mislynch. Furthermore, I really get a feeling things out vibe from your posts rather than a 'I'm looking for scum' vibe.

I also want to lynch mothrax before this game is over.

All of the above.

[Vi]

Doing this the verbose way because it seems necessary.

First xvart post is self-evident fluff.

Second xvart post:
*Saying gandalf wouldn't claim daycop as an RVS joke is a ludicrous pass for scumhunting. To quote EmpTyger, IT'S A JOKE!.
*Saying tanstalas is playing like he was in the previous game while explicitly making no alignment-based comments gets him/us nowhere.
*Pushing nocase for hopping onto gandalf's wagon in like post 5 is ludicrous for reasons I've mentioned previously and the extended questioning is likely to lead nowhere.
*Talking of which, he addresses you and your posts but clearly does not mention the obvious pressure against you in any way. I initially wondered if you were Masons with him for your reasonless defense, BUT I guess not.
*Suspicion on Uite for casting broad suspicion on me+VP Baltar+Troll has since been addressed, and furthermore if I were scum with unfamiliar good players the first thing I would

not

do is attempt to accuse all of them of being the scummiest people in the game (unless I were scum trying to bus, as Troll knows <___< ).

Third xvart post:
*Even xvart has no idea why you would have a Town read on him.
*More of the same from previous post.
*Continuing to press on nocase's first post over everything else in the game.

That's what everyone else sees.

[Vi]

L-1

[Vi]

Nobody hammer without a damn good reason, it's too early for this day to end.

Well, not really. The only person we need to hear more from is Troll OTOH.

[Vi]

Well, not really. The only person we need to hear more from is Troll OTOH.

That was my main concern. I still have some pressing issues with the guy. And the game is only 72 hours old. Ending it now seems too soon on principle.

Numerous other sites have 72-hour

deadlines

for Day 1, and if we've gotten plenty out of the Day there's no sense in dragging it out because we can.

[Vi]

Reflect away; we're waiting on Troll.

[Vi]

Mariyta's play is horrible, but the claim is halfway believable with the flavour.

Worth mentioning: The rules specify that fake flavor can be produced on command (General Rule #9). Granted, saying this means that I'm on drugs (General Rule #2).

I'll grant that Mariyta actually has answered the question beyond "He just is". Question, though. A couple of posts ago I mentioned why specifically nobody except you thinks xvart is Town. Do you have a similar response to that that would show why he is?

@Vi, was there anything in particular that you wanted to get my comments on at this time?

What you said regarding the players is fine for now. I agree that Mariyta should have plenty of experience given that I remember her from Battle Mafia. I am disappointed with myself for not mentioning inHim's early claim. My reads are more or less in line with yours.

What do you think of the potential decline of the Mariyta wagon?

[Vi]

mothrax: What about everyone else?

[Vi]

@Vi, thus far the decay is just Uite and I don't mind their move. Beyond that it's hard to judge what sort of motives we might be looking at without seeing how and why the votes move. Do you think the wagon is going to fade away?

Historically, it's a safe bet, although the recent activity is telling me I'm wrong.

On the other hand,

you have five fingers

the chance of counterwagons springing up on people who aren't probscum seems fairly low Today, so I'm not up in arms about it.

[Vi]

Just so you know, I'll be considering Uite confirmed town from here on out unless I get SIGNIFICANT evidence otherwise. He just "town-slipped", so to speak. I can't tell you why, unfortunately.

You're behind the curve; Uite's been pretty solid Town for a while now

I don't have any flavor, so I can't give you any. I'm just a juggler-VT.

On the other hand, this is an outright scumclaim. If Mariyta isn't lynched TODAY it will be a travesty.

That means get back here, inHim.

[Vi]

Alright, Mariyta wagon is a go. The zero flavor thing is really eating at me...something is fishy about that.

Let's lynch this scum.

Unvote. Vote: Mariyta

oh, screw it. @vi and @zorblag, wax philosophical to me about vp baltar.

Baltar, a reference that is yet an enigma to me due to having never seen Battlestar Galactica. His permanent identity is one of Hunter S. Thompson, the gonzo journalist with a taste for drugs and adventure. How this ties into his gameplay, I am not entirely sure - although it directly segues into him being called a druglord by ABR, a nickname which has since stuck due largely to me thinking it's funny. Actually, the only thing I'm getting out of this is that someone should be waxing philosophical about me.

I haven't particularly disagreed with anything VP Baltar has said. Sure, his reads have basically followed mine around IIRC, and he's not voting Mariyta (though he has said he supports the wagon); but if he's scum, he's doing everything I want him to do, which is the best kind of scum we can have D1.

[Vi]

Who said anything about a hammer? By my count, Mariyta is now at

L-1

.

You cut me saying this.

Exe saying he would hammer ahead of time doesn't make it any less of a bus, because he barely talked about Mariyta except in vague not-particularly-suspicious terms.

I'm surprised you missed it by now, Uite. Unless someone is willing to claim that their Role PM had no flavor, she most certainly WOULD have flavor to give.

[Vi]

The PM said I could request flavor. I didn't see a point. I don't need it for anything.

funny because i'm town and my pm doesn't say that.

Unless someone is willing to claim that their Role PM had no flavor

, she most certainly WOULD have flavor to give.

I will confirm for you Vi, Mariyta is not lying about some roles saying you can put your own flavor in.

I'll take your guarantee.

Unvote: Mariyta

Vote: Exe

(L-4, I think)
with extreme prejudice.

[Vi]

I'm surprised people are coming to the conclusion that no flavor = vanilla town, but etc.

Mariyta: Where did you get the information in 223?

[Vi]

Question for gandalf. What changed between 222 and 224?

[Vi]

Haven't had time to really read the topic since like three days ago, but.

I took my vote off Mariyta because she's given so many wrong (or rather, scummy) answers to my questions that it broke the polygraph. Plus tanstalas was kind enough to tie himself to her.

gandalf looked p.Town throughout until he came under fire. My question about 322 or whatever post it was was based on the following logic:
*gandalf says "lolscum"
*Mariyta gives terrible excuse for flavor
*gandalf says "well you might be Town"
Keep in mind this is a ways after it came out that flavor could be requested for anything by anyone. I just sense that it wouldn't be as convincing as gandalf suggested. Yet I don't really think he's scum tbqh.

Hyperskimming says that Exe hasn't said anything better. If he has, please point it out. Someone can tell me if there was a point to Troll's most recent post too.

[Vi]

Mothrax is much safer, and guaranteed scum.

How so?

[Vi]

vi, are you scum in this game?

P. obviously not. I haven't had much time to look stuff over recently though.

Alphabet Mafia is here.

[Vi]

Scum (or at least Best Town Lynch) Tier

Exe
mothrax

Next Tier Down

Troll

Mid Tier

xvart
nocase

Bad Romance Tier

Mariyta
Tanstalas

ProbTown Tier

VP Baltar
inHim

DefTown Tier

gandalf
Uite

I don't think I would seriously consider lynching anyone from Gaga Tier down Today, and neither should you.

Probably the read I'm least comfortable with here is inHim. I'll give him credit for putting up a lot of Town reads early on, but recent posting is kind of :\ .

---

vi's play seems off the beaten vi track. lackluster, maybe. vi and lackluster do not compute.

You'd be surprised. I play kind of differently in every game based on stuff you don't care to hear about, whether I want to or not.
This was exam week, so I haven't had a lot of time to devote to Mafia.

[Vi]

I found another question while I was cleaning up tabs.

Hey Mariyta, in 123 you said Exe is likely Town. Why?

[Vi]

Ummm..... you have a Bad Romance tier? What does that even MEAN?

It means precisely what you think it means - rah, rah, ah ah a~ah; ro-ma, ro-ma-ma~a (etc.)

Traditional gypsy ballads aside, it's simply a goofy name for the next tier down inspired by tanstalas ess. saving Mariyta.

tanstalas is correct. There was a 1 and a 3 in there somewhere no matter how you sliced it, at least.

---

For Troll - "Too scummy for scum" isn't really the right phrasing. There's a point where something is so anti-Town that it's not necessarily scummy any more.

inHim's early claim, while anti-Town for theoretical reasons, is not worth discussing as a scumpoint for him unless you're willing to go the distance and say he's a scum candidate. How about it, Troll?

We get it, you really want a Mariyta lynch. Even when you're talking to or about other people you're talking about lynching Mariyta. The fixation isn't very becoming regardless of Mariyta's actual alignment.

[Vi]

I always thought that Vi was an 'older' dude.. the fact that he is quoting Lady Gaga now has me wondering...

Oh, but you have no idea.~

----

Not sure what inHim meant when he suggested I didn't see the claim; I did. I called L-1 because, y'know, Mariyta was placed at L-1.

----

*Claiming not to have flavor, as nocase said, is indicative of lazy ANYTHING. However, she would have known as scum that nobody would have bought that readily.
*Acknowledging that it was advertised in her Role PM that she could request flavor (and that she hadn't done so) looks hilariously bad, yet she did it for no real reason.
*Claiming that the stuff in 223 came from her Role PM (and not by request) (257) is even more audacious, because it's a clear and unambiguous contradiction to her previous claim of having no flavor. (She acknowledges that it would have been easy to fake.)

She's not even TRYING to effectively save face. And most importantly,
*tanstalas acknowledged that her Role PM could be as she claimed. Without that, continued doubt about Mariyta would be very understandable.

[Vi]

@Vi: I think you're talking about my #13. If that's the case, I'm honestly not sure. I guess at the time, he appeared town. His talk of the hammer is what made me look back at him.

Serious suggestion: If you're going to play intuitively, try to understand and explain why you come to your gut conclusions.
Otherwise I will start writing Mariytaxchamber fanfiction.

[Vi]

Also, "If we're gonna lynch mothrax, might as well Mariyta."

Yeah, I want mothrax's or Troll's alignment very soon.

ITT, why more games need unlimited dayvigs. Not enough games have them; I checked.

Do you have a pressing reason NOT to lynch Exe, out of curiosity?

[Vi]

Damn, I'm starting to believe we should've just lynched Mariyta. I totally skimmed the "oh, besides the daughter of Ungrika" part of all that mess.

Also, are you still sticking with this?

[Vi]

I agree with VP Baltar, etc.

This Day is stagnating. I would ask Uite and the scum to have mercy and put their votes on people who are actually going to be lynched so we can get this over with. In the meantime, we can play "why are we voting Exe/mothrax/Troll/xvart over the others".

[Vi]

More like I would hope she would have been less sloppy as scum, but yes.

Exe is at L-2.

[Vi]

*sets out tanstalas bait*

[Vi]

yo Vi, did you ask me to play in your upcoming games? I can't recall. If not, I'm going to waggle my finger like your avatar.

"Asking" has been against Word of Mith ever since ABR complained about not getting into Pledge of Allegiance. As you can imagine, I've never liked that ruling, but I comply with it because I already disagree with the administration enough and don't want to get into serious trouble.

[Vi]

@mod: mothrax is overdue for a prod

[Vi]

@mod: Exe also needs a prod

and when he comes back he can give me his take on this statement about quickhammers, said in a game where he was scum.

Don't worry about putting people at L-1 or not, scum quickhammering is not actually a legitimate threat, despite popular opinion.

[Vi]

Stop saying the things I keep forgetting to post

[Vi]

I'm in your head. Plus if you're really town with me for a change, this scum team is boned. This is something to rejoice over.

And there was much rejoicing. (yaaay)
Actually, it is really nice to have someone thinking along my wavelength for a change.

In related news: Hey everyone, go search for Exe's recent posts onsite. lurklurklurklurketc.

[Vi]

VPB expects me to be attacking the people on my wagon heavily, but that's just because he played a game with me where I was pissed off by someone who was repeatedly insulting me.

That's not good enough, you unwashed baboon with terrible breath.

And Tans whole case on me is OMGUS. Not sure if it's scum or town, but either way a hugely biased read. And his whole case seems to be based on me, VPB, and gandalf as a scum-team, which is just silly.

This has been firmly established. Yet his vote's on you anyway.
Are you going to say that tanstalas is scum, or is this just a half-done attempt at deflection?

Do I need to claim? Or can we not waste me, and actually lynch scum instead?

*insert terrible pun about being wasted here*
You should know when to claim; Troll has been kind enough to point it out earlier in the thread.

@Vi: What in particular are you questioning regarding that quote? I said something almost identical in a town game, and I should be able to find the quote.

Well, you've just shown that you argue indep. of alignment that L-1 votes are fine because scummy quickhammers don't happen. I -used- to believe that, and VP Baltar knows why I now think that's wrong; but theory issues aside that doesn't mesh at all with how you

tried to pull a scummy quickhammer

on Mariyta. (Your justification of "well I said it was coming" is hardly plausible.)

Also, I recommend playing with Furcolow sometime.

[Vi]

Okay. I've reread the entire thread but I left the first half my notes at the office this afternoon so I'll pick those up on my dogwalk and be posting later tonight.

xvart.

Fixed.

[Vi]

Well I don't feel like the case on me merits a lynch yet

You wouldn't.

Bloody ckd is making me buy into your "I have a meta of doing this stupid scummy action therefore it's not scummy" argument <_<

----

Vi (Post 31) - You call out the Mariyta as making nothing out of nothing with respect to her opinions on nocase early game. Do you feel the same way about VP with respect to him debating Mothrax's emulation to the letter and the validity of such? What about my continued harping on nocase?

I'm obviously biased with regard to the mothrax emulating Troll because I was also involved in that argument agreeing with VPB. Going hand-in-hand with that, his vote on the VP Baltar was sketch.

Your continued harping on the nocase is obnoxious, unnecessary, and counterproductive, and has been from the beginning; therefore scummy.

Re: gandalf the daycop - Still bogus. Jokeclaiming in the RVS is pretty universally acknowledged as No Big Deal, unless you plan on holding him to his Daycop claim.

I find it strange that xvart doesn't ask Exe anything in those previous posts, and yet winds up willing to hammer at the bottom due to some fairly holey arguments.

@xvart:

What about Troll?

Unvote: Exe

, but I'm still bothered by how little notice Mariyta got before becoming a Great Vote.

Cut by claim: F^# ;jkajkjka;jkfj;asjfk; (etc.)

[Vi]

If Mariyta flipped scum, then it would be an entirely different situation, and I am not sure what would've happened afterwards.

I'll tell you. You'd still look incrediscummy.

[Vi]

For what it's worth, Exe's claim was demanded by probscum, seconded by someone who has confessed to being a bad player, and cut me unvoting him.

@Exe responding to Troll - I don't agree with the point being crap. It seemed like the flavor deal was "the last straw" in your decision to vote - was the flavor fiasco THAT telling?

Also, if Mariyta is scum, she's scum WITH Exe based on 419.

Exe's role very well could be scum-aligned with a few proper noun changes.

[Vi]

Along the lines of what VP Baltar said,
*we have PoE working in Town's favor
*the scum can dive for treasure in that whole "who has flavor" fiasco
so it's hard to care a lot about secrecy.

It's acknowledged that more wagons mean more claims, and most likely more non-VT claims. If we lynch scum in the end, it doesn't much matter.

Incidentally and related to Exe's claim, I strongly recommend

against

a mass gender claim.

[Vi]

I'm actually unsure. Here's where I'm at right now.

*I'm not confident that Mariyta will flip scum for reasons mentioned before, plus at this point nobody except Troll seems to be questioning her alignment anyway.
*I would move on from Exe, but there are still lingering doubts and I'm not sure if Exe will be able to explain them away. I don't see an Exe wagon as -forced- but it's still an option.
*xvart, mothrax, Troll, and nocase (roughly in that order - xvart is clear and present scum with late attempts at/votes on Mariyta and Exe, mothrax is delinquent on posting content and has been for a while, Troll hasn't offended enough people to be a viable wagon in spite of being scum, and nocase is just

there

for me) are all who are left to wagon/lynch, and assuming I'm right about at least one of Mariyta and Exe being Town I'm reasonably confident that at least two scum are in there. However,
*continuing the Day with more wagons is extremely likely to yield another power role claim. Yes I know I just said I don't care about that but I'd at least like to TRY to make an effort to avoid that.

For the moment, I'd like to continue waiting on Exevart and go from there.

[Vi]

Exevart?

Please tell me you can figure out that portmanteau. :ohdear:

[Vi]

Exe, each time you mentioned quickhammering (cut - even now), you prefaced it "If I were scum" (i.e. "If I were scum, and if I were trying to quickhammer Mariyta, I would be lynched"), the implication being that such play would be suicidal as scum. Now here we clearly see you attempting to quicklynch someone, but the fact is that whether you're scum or not is irrelevant - you would get lynched anyway. So why do it in the first place? There's even less Town motivation for your action than there is scum motivation.

---

xvart - Why is that just "no read" on Troll?

About the Belly Dancer role - aside from it not being clearly beneficial to one alignment, it's also the kind of flavor one would expect from a spy.

I did expect a claim, and wouldn't have minded it if I were still suspicious of him at the time. I was willing to concede what I had and move on at the time of my post, then Troll posted with his complaint and I started to question Exe again. Your reasons for pushing Exe seemed tacked on to the end of your post and insubstantial.

---

Because both times he got off the wagons it was at L-1, giving the impression he was only in it for the claim. Even moreso, this post sounds a lot like someone pleased with a succesful rolefish.

Well, on one hand I don't think I've ever seen scum deliberately rolefish by hopping wagons like that. On the other hand, if the person being wagoned comes up more likely to be Town (regardless of claim), then going all the way and lynching them is a Bad Move. Also consider that I hardly said "oh Mariyta claimed let's unvote".

I'm glad to see you making the effort, but you're pushing my three of my top Town reads as scum. You probably won't take it from me until after the game, but you probably could not be more wrong.

[Vi]

Uite - Since you asked.

I DID ask for someone to confirm Mariyta's claim that she had no flavor, because otherwise I would not have believed it. To state the obvious implication, no corners were cut on my flavor and no offers to supplement what I had were there either. I therefore had no reason whatsoever to believe her claim.

VP Baltar has pretty much been on the same page as me for the past several pages now and consequently our votes have mostly been in the same places. If anyone is picking and driving the lynches here, it's us. Is this a good thing? Well, from my PoV and probably his,

yes

. There's a reason the me, him, and Troll were picked out as the most experienced people here on Page 1, and why we trust each others' judgment (well, me and VP Baltar anyway).

As for gandalf, you tell me how likely scum is to make this post.

----

@Exe - Quick games aren't necessarily good for Town - as you can see, I went from wanting Mariyta deflynched to saying it's not going to happen Today, both times with what I believe are decent reasoning. Right now I think we have more or less the same effect as the lynch with no body sacrificed. Also, scum can be in a safe position simply by not being around, but that's neither here nor there for the purposes of this game.

You aren't answering Troll's point, though - why claim the hammer

specifically

instead of putting your vote on someone you think is scummy WHEN you think that person is scummy?

In light of this conversation, your comment that "Towns should be playing pro-Town by nature" makes me

There is no way we can bring the conversation to Of Rouges and Curses due to no such game existing.

----

gandalf - In 327 you said the Exe wagon was "compelling and disturbing at the same time" and liked the reasons behind it. In 382 you said that you didn't like the Exe wagon and didn't expect a scumflip from it. What changed?

[Vi]

You aren't answering Troll's point, though - why claim the hammer specifically instead of putting your vote on someone you think is scummy WHEN you think that person is scummy?

I don't understand how these two things are at all exclusive. I

had

my vote on someone who I thought was scummy, when that person was scummy. I had my vote on Mothrax.

Sadly, I only get 1 vote. I specifically offered to hammer Mariyta

if the wagon had support

.
The point was, I wasn't obstinate in my belief that Mothrax should be the lynch.
I was willing to lynch Mariyta as well, but preferred Mothrax.
How many times do I have keep repeating this?

The Mariyta wagon

obviously

had support. Why

hammer

specifically?

Oh and, @your quick games argument, I've yet to see a slow drawn-out game go well for the town, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

ITT we didn't lynch a VT claim on Page 5 and Town won almost effortlessly by the end of D1. Enjoi.

[Vi]

VP Baltar has pretty much been on the same page as me for the past several pages now and consequently our votes have mostly been in the same places. If anyone is picking and driving the lynches here, it's us. Is this a good thing? Well, from my PoV and probably his,

yes

. There's a reason the me, him, and Troll were picked out as the most experienced people here on Page 1, and why we trust each others' judgment (well, me and VP Baltar anyway).

This is blatantly untrue. So far, VPB has voted for, in order: Zorblag, tanstalas, xvart, gandalf5188, tanstalas again, Exe, and finally Zorblag again. Your votes are first me, then Mariyta, and lastly Exe. The only time your votes aligned was after VPB joined the Exe wagon. Furthermore, his votes have been all over your declared reads as per post 341. At that time, he was voting for Tanstalas, of whom you said "I don't think I would seriously consider lynching anyone from Gaga Tier down Today, and neither should you." And you can't seriously claim you trust Zorblag's judgment in this game when you've got him in the Next Tier Down from Scum, and VPB is actually voting for him.

I didn't seriously claim I trusted Troll's judgment, actually.

and why we trust each others' judgment (well, me and VP Baltar anyway).

(In fact, Troll will readily profess that he doesn't even trust his own judgment.)
Other than that, if you were reading the thread instead of reading the votes you would see that at the appropriate times I was also suspicious of tanstalas (the first time), xvart, and gandalf (somewhat). Those reads in 341 didn't get where they were on their own.

As for gandalf, you tell me how likely scum is to make this post.

I'd say scum are fairly likely to do that. In fact that post is part of why I originally got suspicious of Gandalf, and not only because of the blatant buddying.

Why is it necessarily buddying?

[Vi]

Oh wow. Bellydancer could EASILY be a scum role.

Why?

This question stands out; it kinda seems like it has an obvious answer.

Also, I apologize to Uite, since I just saw your wiki page and now have a much more accurate idea of your experience.
With that said, I now have to question how you don't

already

know about the limitations of analyzing games by votes alone.

[Vi]

tanstalas, you said that already.

Would you like to comment about someone other than VPB/gandalf/Exe? The fixation is actually getting kind of creepy.

[Vi]

*waves hi to mothrax*

[Vi]

Other than that, if you were reading the thread instead of reading the votes you would see that at the appropriate times I was also suspicious of tanstalas (the first time), xvart, and gandalf (somewhat). Those reads in 341 didn't get where they were on their own.

I know there is a history behing those reads, and that is why I didn't make a fuss about Mariyta. xvart was obviously scummy to you both, but you definitely did differ about Gandalf and Tanstalas, proving your original assertion of trusting each others' judgment wrong. I mean, while you were telling people not to vote for Tanstalas, while that was exactly what VPB was doing. As for Gandalf, if you were suspicious of him at the time VPB voted, you really didn't show it. You even commented later on that with "Yet I don't really think he's scum tbqh." Even less correct is your statement about how you were voting together, since you demonstrably weren't, except for Exe.

I'll concede that we haven't physically voted together. I didn't show much of my doubt about gandalf and didn't linger on it because of my previous Town read, correct.
When "trusting each others' judgment" means "agreeing all the time", let me know. I haven't looked much at tanstalas since someone said it was typical of him to be incrediwrong tbh (gladly leaving him to VPB ); I think now would be a good time to get a conversation with him going.

Why is it necessarily buddying?

How else would you explain it if you think the person doing it is scum, and you arrived at that conclusion independent of said person's positive comments?

Actually, I just noticed that you still had your vote on gandalf from before...
After looking over everything again, I think it's more likely that gandalf didn't scumslip based on the change between 222 (lol no flavor) and 224 (oh THAT flavor), if that's the key factor holding your suspicion there.

[Vi]

Vote: mothrax

(L-3)

[Vi]

Actually, I would be more suspicious if xvart DIDN'T vote Exe after asking for a claim, though I don't buy into his reasons for the vote. I also suspect he's avoiding the thread.

tanstalas - What do you think of a mothrax vote?

VP Balto - Would you like to stay with the Troll wagon?

[Vi]

xvart - Why is that just "no read" on Troll?

When I hunt for scum I look at behaviors and actions and usually I don't pay enough attention to lurkers, fluff posters, and people that haven't done anything that I can't put a scum motivation behind. These people tend to fly under the radar.

Would you like to do something about that?

Oh wow. Bellydancer could EASILY be a scum role.

Why?

This question stands out; it kinda seems like it has an obvious answer.

Does it? Since I've never been a gypsy I don't have a clue about their organizational structure and caste system on their social ladder. Are belly dancers looked down upon by the Clan leaders? Do belly dancers steal money from people when they aren't looking?

Are you being deliberately slow, or would you like to actually read more than just the title of Exe's claim?

I also suspect he's avoiding the thread.

For the love of god, you really are pulling out all the stops aren't you?

Yes absolutely. Thanks for acknowledging I'm right!

balto (and anyone else who cares to wax eloquent about it): inhimshallibe?

Read hasn't changed. Likely pro-Town for early play, recent play is actually fairly lackluster.

Question for Mariyta. You wanted to hammer Exe (414, saying he's preferable to xvart) but changed your mind. Was it solely on the basis of the claim?

[Vi]

Speaking of avoiding, do you not think the quotes I posted by Exe (with bolded emphasis) here is a contradiction?

Why are you avoiding lynching someone you said has a role that could so obviously be a scum role?

Why did you unvote Exe? You didn't vote anyone else when you unvoted and you weren't really clear with what had changed in your mind that warranted an unvote (especially since you wanted to lynch him with prejudice previously). In your post directly after your unvote you said he would still look incredibly scummy.

These are two different issues, and I'll answer them separately.

Re: the first - You said it yourself. They're not directly contradictory, but there's no indication that he has done such a thing as Town. tbh I'm sympathetic to that argument because it's not too different from how I play. I'm not sure what you meant when you said that he brought up "regardless of alignment" "after the fact" - please elaborate.

Re: the second - It -could- be a scum role. The notion of lynching it to be safe is fairly tempting.
As for why I unvoted Exe, his protests seem to be based on genuinely not understanding the theory behind what he's doing. I'm not fully convinced of it, but as that was the impression I was getting I unvoted.

balto (and anyone else who cares to wax eloquent about it): inhimshallibe?

Read hasn't changed. Likely pro-Town for early play, recent play is actually fairly lackluster.

What about his early play makes inHim pro-town?

He very strongly pushed Town-hunting early on, and I agree with most of his reads. Moving gandalf from clear Town to being voted and back could be suss but it's not much different from my reaction (then again, Uite can note that he voted immediately before his claim and unvoted immediately afterward - not that I think gandalf wouldn't have claimed anyway). His isolated post #20 (a week ago) was pretty much the last thing he posted that wouldn't come from a clear sheeping strategy. Just now noticing that after asking Mariyta to claim, he stopped mentioning her altogether except for that "Damn, we should have lynched her" post.

[Vi]

Out of curiosity, what is your (listed) occupation?

[Vi]

I know my lurking is the main reason for my wagon but what I need to post requires a decent amount of time at my computer which I don't have. I just came of a 64 hour work week which is no real excuse. Sorry about that.
That said, expect real content tomorrow afternoonish. It is difficult to establish reads when reading and posting from my phone.
I will say this, yes I still think gandalf is scummy, I do not support the troll wagon, I do have evidence for why. Gut read on vp probably came from avi/name more than anything...

Not the MAIN reason.
Also, phone posting is the worst thing ever, seriously.

Exe - Is that all you have to say at this point?

[Vi]

Re: Exe has no Town meta to back himself up -

Suggesting that it isn't a scum meta is only valid if it is actually not a scum meta, i.e. he has done it as town.

Here you plainly say that whatever Exe does is a scum meta if he hasn't previously done it as Town, and that's a fairly obvious wide brush.

Re: Exe didn't understand why what he was doing was bad, therefore he's not scum - If that's actually true, yes. If Exe is feigning knowledge about how bad it was, obv. not. This then becomes case-by-case.

VPB should clearly go back to his OJ Simpson av.

Waiting rather patiently on mothrax.

[Vi]

nocase 517 is awesome and etc.

[Vi]

Get on with the rest of your content.

[Vi]

@Vi, did mothrax's post live up to your expectations? I sort of hope that you didn't have them set too high.

Not incredibly so.
Aren't

you

going to respond to him?

[Vi]

(Note: VI here means "person who will look scummy regardless".)

My experience with mothrax (one game in which I was scum and he was town) was that I found him pretty attackable for many of the things that he did. I'm inclined to think that he plays a somewhat scummy game by default. He needs to do a bit more but I'll wait till he's had a chance to deliver the post he promised before judging too much.

VI getting a temp. pass.

Like I said earlier, I prefer an Exe or mothrax lynch today if we're not lynching Mariyta (and apparently we're not I guess.)

#2 lynch.

Re: mothrax: As I've said, I expect him to look scummy from the game I played with him. Having said that, he's particularly detached here and we don't have much at all in terms of his suspicions. The gandalf5166 vote when Mariyta was the main wagon sticks out in part because there's not much else to look at and in part because, despite what he says it does look like he's trying to center attention somewhere other than Mariyta when she's getting plenty. I'm not inclined to believe that by saying he doesn't dispute gandalf5166's case on Mariyta he's saying he finds it equally valid (which he seems to be trying to claim now.) If Mariyta is town then I lose a lot in the way of motives for mothrax's play but there's still esentially no scum hunting that I like given that I don't buy the gandalf5166 case he's making (I was fine with what gandalf5166 did there.)

If we're not lynching Mariyta today I'd prefer Exe. If we were going with mothrax I'd rather just stick with Marriyta, really.

VI who looks scummier than usual but may just be a big blob of ?. Not Today's lynch (this is before the Exe claim IIRC).

I don't think that mothrax is a great lynch now myself, but if you intentionally avoid lynching people who aren't contributing then you're giving scum lurking as a tool to get away with never seeming scummy and not getting punished for it. mothrax should be contributing more and that is something scummy beyond just the overall nature of his posts (which, as I've said, came across as particularly attackable even though he was town the one game I was scum and playing with him.) The main action that I dislike from him though was the vote around the Mariyta wagon and then the presentation that he thought she was as scummy. Unless Mariyta is scum that's not that huge an issue for me though; it'd probably be another example of him doing things as he does them in a way that comes across as scummy rather than an alignment tell.

Not a good lynch but a VI who might be lurking and should be lynched only if he continues not-posting.

I'm not overly convinced that he'd have good motives for that sequence of thoughts as scum (as opposed to just a player using unimpressive reasoning regardless of alignment)

Probably VI.

I'm impressed with your ability to affix any potentially negative attributes about mothrax to a VI label while ambiguously supporting his lynch and not giving any actual alignment read on him.

[Vi]

Deadline is in like four days and I'm pretty bored with this game at this point. We need a flip so some real analysis can start.

It's okay, I was just stringing the Day along for mothrax and friends.

Unvote: mothrax

Vote: Exe

(L-2)

[Vi]

It's okay, I was just stringing the Day along for mothrax and friends.

Yeah, don't get me wrong. I'm glad mothrax was forced to post his weaksauce analysis that had to be broken up over two posts 'cause it was so huge. Now he's even more obv.

What do you think is the over/under on one of us dying tonight? I think you bullying troll there is going to make him want to NK you. I'll carry on your life's work. Rest assured.

Who

else

would they kill?

[Vi]

I really should have seen that flip coming.

gandalf can answer his own questions, but right now I'm going to

Vote: inHimshallibe

(L-5)

[Vi]

Don't you dare.

Yay, bodies. Let's do work.

I think I just dared, actually.

[Vi]

I really should have seen that flip coming.

Especially since you probably knew his alignment already. Seriously, your unvote of Exe was pretty terrible considering you still mockingly called him scum in the same post. You offered no real reasoning behind unvoting him until later yet you still maintain the plausibility of him being scum. Then when you come back to the wagon you were just stringing it along for others... It is pretty obvious that you were trying to avoid the wagon as much as possible while still looking like a willing participant. When you finally justified unvoting Exe it was a pretty bad justification (he didn't know what he was doing was scummy therefore he might not be scum?).

Yes, yes, I know it looked bad. I'll deal with it. Although there are a few technical details that might be worth ironing out.

*I didn't mockingly call him scum in the same post, although "I don't think this case merits a lynch on myself" is pretty brash.
*I did offer reasoning behind unvoting him immediately under that, essentially buying into his other-game meta. I argued this with you for a while.
*I wasn't stringing the wagon along as in pushing other peoples' desires forward, but I

was

stalling the Day until mothrax and friends showed back up. Shortly after 434 I pretty much decided that nobody else was a candidate to be lynched, but pressure needed to be applied to the others not being lynched. When I was done, I went onto the Exe wagon. I could have continued pushing the mothrax wagon, but didn't (I was actually the swing vote to ensure Exe's lynch).
*The justification makes sense if applied to a newish player... which makes this the second time I've completely misjudged someone's experience in this game. :\

[Vi]

inHim - Why going so far out of your way to sound timid?

[Vi]

Don't you dare.

Yay, bodies. Let's do work.

This is going to get ugly fast, isn't it.

Yes. I think.

Maybe "timid" was the wrong word, but THAT in the first two posts.

[Vi]

I guess I was pretty wrong about Baltar. Sorry for that. I'm still thinking Gandalf is scum though.

I'm also getting suspicious in inHim though. He really hasn't done anything at all to help us so far.

Anyway, now that Exe has flipped, I'll be looking for clues surrounding him first.

I think I'm working with outdated material with what is helpful, to be honest.

I dunno, actually hunting scum instead of dropping one-liners might be a good start.

Just vote him and get the savage killing going, Vega.
Troll is the second-best candidate for getting clawed up, mothrax is in third place some ways behind, then I'm out of scumguesses.

[Vi]

I think I want to claim now so we can just move on. Thoughts?

I'm pretty sure we can all but end this game with a massclaim.

[Vi]

*The justification makes sense if applied to a newish player... which makes this the second time I've completely misjudged someone's experience in this game. :\

Who are you referring to here?

Uite.

[Vi]

First off, nocase is almost confirmed town at this point. He's going to potentially look suspicious in a bit if we don't keep flavor in context but once the action with the flavor goes down I'll be willing to vouch for his clan without question. I'm not the least bit interested in going into details yet but I'm not vanilla and I used an ability that would lead to exactly this sort of behavior (other than voting me) and it only would have worked on a member of the Ungrika clan. If it weren't for the flavor I think we'll be getting in a bit I probably wouldn't do this pre-emptively but this reveal had to be made today so you get it now.

This makes things more interesting than advertised. If you're pondering what I'm pondering, that answers a few of my own questions, guarantees nocase is a Vig (and not an SK of some kind), and opens the door for you to be Town.

nocase 624 is, continuing a trend, awesome.

tans on inHim - I mentioned it Yesterday, nothing's changed, etc. As a bonus, he hasn't been around to put his money where his mouth is. That claim is going to be what saves him.

[Vi]

That's... confirmable. May I ask for a role title? (We can save the role effect for after VPB sees everything.)

I'll go ahead and claim afterward. I'm a little concerned with where this is going though.

[Vi]

@Vi:

You have quite a few posts that are exclusively you dealing with me. Seriously, it's 14 out of 88 posts, and it's even worse early on. If you count every post mentioning me, that figure doubles. What's up with that?

I

wubs

you!
In all seriousness, you were my first scum suspect, and you decided to engage me later D1. What you're describing is not anomalous at all.

I have no idea what gandalf is talking about when he says he knows what I'm talking about. We might as well stop and see what he thinks is going on.

I'm actually more inclined toward the former option. It's harder to fake, and will probably serve us better than him controlling a vote (as we can control inHim's vote with enough pressure ).

[Vi]

EBWOP: By "stop" I mean "hold off on my claim".

[Vi]

Hi mothrax!

[Vi]

Presumably you check on your games more than you post in them

I am the

Fortune Teller

(Fortune for a quarter? I love quarters!). Shortly before each Day I receive awesome mod info about who's going to die. During D1 I knew well in advance that VP Baltar was going to die that Night, and didn't bother suspecting him. It shouldn't surprise anyone to hear that I'm slated to die Tonight, given that I was making no secret of being a power role. I also learned before the Day began that someone will die at nocase's hands (so to speak). There's one last bit that I'll keep to myself for now.

Obviously whoever is slated to get night-killed is Town (scum: please subvert this and attempt to kill yourselves at Night). In addition, because kills are chosen far ahead of time, they have a vested interest in not attacking their kill target. Thus, I'm actually suspicious of people who DIDN'T attack VP Baltar Yesterday. Unfortunately, nobody really attacked VPB except Uite

Another big catch is that having to choose kills in advance weakens the scumteam a little, and Exe's role wasn't all that great (so far I don't think anyone has claimed male at all ) Given game balance, I expect we'll be lynching claimed power roles before this is over.

Talking of claimed power roles, I know there's at least one other person running around with a role. Let's see if he steps forward.

[Vi]

I also learned before the Day began that someone will die at nocase's hands (so to speak)

during this Day

.

Clarification.

Although really, if I knew nocase was in charge of the VP Baltar hit you'd THINK I'd be voting him right now.

[Vi]

vi, hold me.

*holds you*

wait, what?

there's inhim's ability and then there's mine . . . ?

That has nothing to do with what you quoted. Once more, in English.

[Vi]

vi, my day kill is vp baltar's?

No. mothrax voted you based on misreading my post as saying that I knew you killed VP Baltar last Night. This is not true.

Something's wrong here, and it involves an

Unvote: inHimshallibe
Vote: xvart

(L-4)

[Vi]

Talking of claimed power roles, I know there's

at least one other person

running around with a role. Let's see if he steps forward.

[Vi]

Obligatory: Why Mariyta, and why after two wrong-flavor attempts?
Yes I know Troll vouched for you but I want to know.

[Vi]

I've hinted well in advance that I knew about the lycanthropy flavor behind the kill. Not sure what you were doing with the knife.

Where to now, nocase?

[Vi]

@nocase: If you say so, furface.

Ok then I resturn to my orriginal question: Why did/do you support a massclaim vi?

I know why I do

but I am currious as to what your logic behind it is

I'll gladly answer this question, but one part of it is going to stay under wraps for a little longer. Until then, I think more people would be interested in YOUR reason for supporting a massclaim.

[Vi]

HOWEVA, i still find his play disturbingly indecisive.

:zorblag:

[Vi]

Oh right, something else to say that isn't

troll

ing.

mothrax - Any suggestions for who's left that's scummy?

[Vi]

@mod: Prod a Troll

[Vi]

Hello everyone. Sorry for my late arrival to the encampment. I was out taking a slash beyond the caravan borders and got distracted by this really unique looking piece of braided wool. Anyways, I digress.

Hi there, breadcrumb!

[Vi]

A curiously specific flavor reference in an otherwise useless post that happens to mention the buzzword "unique".

You tell me if that's a breadcrumb. If it's not, then I stopped going after xvart for the wrong reasons Yesterday.

[Vi]

I'm sure we'll figure the specifics of the deadspeak mechanism out when inHim uses his ability.

I'm indifferent on "crone" but the fact is inHim's ability isn't necessarily attached to a pro-Town player and doesn't raise his stock a whole lot.

[Vi]

The kill flavor for N1 didn't look like a curse to me. The lycanthropy flavor, on the other hand, etc.

I disagree about the claims tbqh. At this point pretty much everyone is outed anyway.

[Vi]

*xvart bait goes here*

[Vi]

So are we going through with the full massclaim or what? Should I claim in my next post?

Unless you have a reason not to. Between the number of people claimed and PoE I don't see a huge drawback to it, provided we stop trying to lynch someone who legitimized NOT lynching a scummy claimed Vanilla D1 and someone who has been called extremely Town when he's not saying stupid things. (Needlessly to say I do NOT approve of mothrax's suspect list.)

Vi's claim actually made me somewhat suspicious by how he's claiming it makes him town.

I did? *checks* Well that's what's implied anyway.
I'm not sure what in inHim's claim makes you think he's Town though.

Right now I'm actually more interested in Troll's second beer, though. The N1 kill flavor didn't involve cursing, but lycanthropy certainly DOES.

@Vi: Awesome new avatar by the way.

Arcanus: His true identity is so obvious he only needs to wear half a mask.

All we need now is someone to be a Happy Mask Salesman and we can have a subgroup going

[Vi]

I'm not sure what in inHim's claim makes you think he's Town though.

I'm not saying he's outright town, but his ability certainly is protown, since it lets dead townies, who are of confirmed alignment influence the game. Like we know VPB is good for sure, so having him around again is bound to help us more than scum.

I think I can agree with that. If it gave the wielder some kind of power, that would be different, but all it does is pass the microphone to a dead player. I don't see a use for it scum-side.

[Vi]

Bah, something at the back of my mind keeps telling me Troll definitely has the role, though the alignment is a bit spotty.

Troll almost certainly has the role. Alignment is still in question. He could help it NOT be in question by posting but etc.

I also think nocase made a poor decision by killing Mariyta and not mothrax.

Basically. I'm actually a bit concerned about nocase's alignment post-lycanthropy, which is why I'm curious about Troll's second claimed beer.

Also, should I call forth VP Baltar now? Personally, I think if we're going to massclaim we should do that before giving the dead a voice.

Also, Mariyta will be able to help VP with the post. He can verify that when he comes here to post.

We're almost done massclaiming

If the dead can communicate with each other before posting, then it seems like the intended use for the role is to allow dead people to share their Night actions and more-than-just-superficial-flavor of what their role did. That's strange because nobody has claimed anything that would be useful to get out save Troll and his beer...

I'm actually leaning toward no. We don't have a guarantee that the dead know anything they didn't when they were alive, and they were both VTs. If it's a one-shot ability, it seems like a waste to use it now.

What makes me nervous about the Troll claim is that his curse removal is a cover-up for Vi's claim and why Vi wouldn't die.

Notice that I'm actually arguing

against

using it on me, saying there's no point. That claim's going to have to go somewhere.

And even if I don't die Tonight for whatever reason,

my

claim has to go somewhere. If someone dies other than who I say will die, that's when we start having issues.

I just realized that my awesome role makes me an awesome auto-lynch at LyLo. :/ I don't plan on letting this game get that far.

On the other hand, consider that I've been very upfront about having a role throughout the game and readily claimed it as something of payment for you claiming yours. Most people don't do that with potentially-scummy claims, especially the kind that (as scum) would lock me into confirming an innocent each Day or risk the penalty for lying.

[Vi]

Werebeer

I love this concept when you say it like this. It's so...

exploitable

. *runs to setup design table*

[Vi]

...Why would you use a Hider-style ability on someone you (I guess) thought was Mafia?
And why would you use a Thief-style ability on someone who claimed vanilla?

[Vi]

I chose Mariyta because of the fiasco with gandalf and Mariyta yesterday and the VT claiming. I was still had nagging suspicions of her going into night and figured if she was scum I would have stolen something scummy even if she was only a goon.

Did you -ask- whether the stuff you stole was indicative of alignment?

I didn't pick Vi because Vi was obvious scum at last night and I didn't want to waste a ability in the night on someone I was going to be trying to lynch. I haven't been an investigative role before but I have gathered that you use your investigations on people you aren't sure of; not people you are convinced are scum.

The second sentence is true; the first sentence is lol.

[Vi]

You know who we really need right now? Uite and mothrax. Particularly Uite.

[Vi]

So what do you think of xvart

now

?

[Vi]

And I'm to believe that gandalphim is a better vote than xvart right now?

[Vi]

@mod: xvart has 4 votes

Also, prod a Troll

Now let me tell you what *I* see.

Somewhat early Day 1, xvart votes you for fairly decent grounds (142). Your response is basically "and YOU'RE suspicious TOO!" even though you said that it was a result of xvart misunderstanding you (158) twice (176). You then vote xvart over it... and... that's it until you say tanstalas+xvart is not scum+scum D2. No other mention of xvart when he comes under pressure and no attempt to pressure him yourself. And now you're staying as close to the middle of the fence as you can in regards to calling him scummy.

I think he's kinda scummy, but not scummy enough to lynch right off the bat. Like I said before, I'm getting the feeling that there's maybe one, but not two, scum among him and Tanstalas, based on the way they're interacting. I've had Tans as town for a while, so it's probably xvart, though it may be neither.

He's kinda scummy, but not THAT scummy, he could be scum, he could not be scum... If you could say those sorts of things without a mask you could go into politics.

Distancing? 'Looks like it from here!

[Vi]

After thinking about it, I'm not sure if I like the direction this is going.

I'll see if I have more time to sort this out tonight.

To be safe, though...

Unvote: xvart

No access from tomorrow morning to Friday evening

[Vi]

I really should be asleep right now, but.

Vi - I am quite adept at arguing with myself but I'm not arguing against myself. :dealwithit:

nocase - Troll said he was confTown, and the only way that would be wrong is if both Troll AND nocase were scum. It's not completely impossible, but so convoluted that it's close enough. HOWEVER, I still remain concerned that his alignment may have changed with lycanthropy and the lack of Trolling in this thread is not easing my fears.

tanstalas - Was willing to stick up for a scummy claimed Vanilla lynchbait who just flipped Townie, semi-claiming in the process. There has to be a reeeeeally good case to push that away.

gandalf - I can definitely see where his mouth gets him in trouble, but at the same time I'm not getting a particularly harmful vibe from his posts. In addition, this would be the first time I've seen scum so readily claim VT and claim that they've been softclaiming it all game.

inHim - Play isn't all that good, but he's claimed a confirmable role that makes no sense for scum to have. IMO, that should be enough.

Troll - Scum giving a Vig ability to Town isn't unheard of but it's also the opposite of common. His play was really not convincing and not having him around doesn't do much for me, thus causing a conundrum that I'd really wish wasn't there.

Who's left...

mothrax - lol, mothrax

xvart - I'm not overthrilled with the play overall for reasons that have been beaten to death, but I do appreciate his defense against the arguments vs. his claim. His claim in itself isn't anything scum couldn't go for themselves, and some of the behavior about basically making me make him claim and not recognizing "unique" is strange, but the fact that he was willing to breadcrumb it early gives slight pause.

Uite - Most of how Uite has managed to look Town so far has come essentially by accident. His choices of targets range from bad to very bad, and he hasn't done a whole lot with the two others in "who's left" to convince me that he's not scum with them. Having looked through his record, I know he's a competent player, which further bothers me considering the only near-lynch wagons he has been on belonged to Mariyta and gandalf.

The reason I bothered to do this was because IF xvart is/flipped Town, THEN people would start coming down on two people who IMO shouldn't be getting lynched unless there's some argument I don't know about that's more compelling than what I listed above. So I wanted to make sure I had my own facts straight.

tl;dr These last three should be our lynch pool for Today if I didn't miss anything. If I missed something, tell me.

[Vi]

xvart 782 - See tanstalas 241 and Vi 732 for tanstalas and inHim respectively.

In the meantime,

and to further along the molassesmassclaim: I am the hypnotist, the town delayed roleblocker. I have to submit my targets a phase ahead of time. I targeted Gandalf N0(he would have been blocked N1)

and Vi N1 (will be blocked N2)

Is it just me or is this a giant scumclaim?

unvote. vote: mothrax.

Nope, not just me.

Cookies

Pizza if you can see the three issues with this.

Vote: mothrax

(L-3)
Now with extra

LOCK ON: mothrax

.

[Vi]

Seraphim gets no pizza.

Bonus round, related to one of the three issues mentioned above:
mothrax-Town implies xvart-scum, although mothrax-scum doesn't quite mean xvart-Town. The pizza for guessing this one has a cheese-stuffed crust.

[Vi]

The first one was Town, Seraphim. Besides, we were entertaining, so it was worth reading.

That, and there are quite a few people ANTSY about your player slot.

[Vi]

I promise I'll elaborate later along with more fun reads of other players too!

Doesn't involve recapping.

[Vi]

All you need to reread to start with is post 775.

[Vi]

Would you be offended if I don't take your word for it and start at the beginning of day 2?

Yes and no. Do as you like but I want you to come back to 775 in the end.

What I also really don't get is that you're mildly speaking out against nocase and Seraphim's latest votes, while actually voting Mothrax yourself as well.

Seraphim's, not nocase's.
I dislike Seraphim's vote, but I don't nearly think he's scum more than the top three from 775.

Also, the sudden jump off xvart. You were basically asking me to hammer, and now you've pretty much backed off him. The parallels between the Mariyta wagon Day 1 are perplexing.

If by "asking you to hammer" you mean "pointing out your terriscummy relationship with him", by "backed off him" you mean "unvoted him for someone better while stating that he is one of only three people I want to lynch", and by "perplexing" you mean that you don't have any solid ground for an accusation but wanted to throw something out, yes.

And yet mothrax 807 is so self-evidently awful that he's still a better lynch than you.

[Vi]

why would mothrax stick his neck out over the chopping block by making that revision if he was scum?

Good question. Potential answer: He can't really look WORSE right now.

Counter-questions: Why does that revision involve roleblocking a claimed V. Townie? And where did that Mariyta suspicion come from in the first place? The most mothrax ever said about Mariyta involved her being "useless".

----

Quickly skimming through Exe's posts are putting me off from an xvart lynch Today. Uite is still great though (and IMO the only alternative to mothrax at this point).

@mod: Replace Troll

[Vi]

A1) his vote on Mariyta is pure 100% hipocracy: He claims she has done nothing of note other than complain about his fakeclaim (not disputing that), yet if you look at his iso, 8 of 14 posts are about his fake claim.

@troll: no, I do not have a town read on mariyta at this point. I don't think I ever implied as such. I just think gandalf is more likely to be scum.

I called gandalf scum because of his hipocracy surrounding mariyta. In that same post, I said that him pointing out that she had not contributed was true.

I said in my orriginal attack on gandalf that I found Mariyta to be equally useless... I don;t know how many times I have to say this but I will say it one more time: I voted and am voting gandalf because of his hipocracy in his attacks on Mariyta. I aslo noted that I would also be down for a Mariyta lynch, but at the time of my vote I wasn't ready to lynch anyone, and therefore didn't vote the major wagon, which I believe was at L-2 or similar at the time.

Re Mariyta: I was not attempting to derail the wagon. Look at the vote in context. A few points:
A1) Mariyta was at L-3 still... no big whoop. Read my scum meta, I uberbus as scum, so what motivation would I have to derail a wagon?
B2) it was page seven. Regardless of my thoughts on Mariyta's alignment, Pg 7 is too early to lynch anyone imo.

c3) I am happy with a lynch on any of our claimed players. At this point, there is no reason to push to another claim for people to unvote after the claim.

And there we are, every place where you mention Mariyta being suspicious.

Not only is it weak, but just from these quotes I can already see you suspect gandalf more

and

these quotes don't factor in the posts you made at the end of the Day accusing xvart, inHim, and Troll.

Sooooo... why Mariyta?

[Vi]

my gandalf rb

Stop. Breathe. Double-check. Breathe. Retry.

[Vi]

Oh, wait, I understand what you were saying in 815. Never mind me. >.>

But I don't see what that has to do with Mariyta.

[Vi]

my gandalf rb

Stop. Breathe. Double-check. Breathe. Retry.

HE'S FLIPPIN' CONTINENTS.

No, he was talking about his N0 block.

---

mothrax - You're not telling me why Mariyta instead of inHim, Troll, xvart, me, or even gandalf again.

[Vi]

*xvart bait goes here*

[Vi]

EBWOP: *as does Uite bait*

[Vi]

Vi, I agree that the kill last night didn't look like a curse offhand, but flavor-wise it also didn't look like something that would have had to have been arranged in advance. I'm not entirely sure what curses would look like.

Fair enough. If it's not the werebeer, barring some new death mechanic Night-kills are the only curse-worthy things left.

How certain are you that you're going to die rather than just being targeted? If there's a chance that I can stop this kill I suspect it's worth trying.

...
I wasn't planning on playing this card Today, but if you're claiming Doctor and we're arranging Night actions, I think it would be best if you knew.

It shouldn't surprise anyone to hear that I'm slated to die Tonight, given that I was making no secret of being a power role. I also learned before the Day began that someone will die at nocase's hands (so to speak).

There's one last bit that I'll keep to myself for now.

This last bit is--I actually don't know that I was targeted, BUT
*I

do

know there will be no kill Tonight, and
*I'm one-shot NK-immune
so I just connected the dots. Given that nobody has claimed a protective role that they have used and xvart has claimed he can't Hide/Commute Tonight (and even if he could, unless he can submit actions in advance the mod would have no way of telling me if there would be a kill) I believe that I was correct in assuming that I'm the target.

So to a degree I was lying and I won't die Tonight. But I hope you can appreciate why. Until now, the scum had no way of knowing their kill would fail, and would have targeted someone else N2. Confirmed innocent found, and while I wasn't counting on a Doctor we can stop THAT kill too if that's what your beer is for. Now, if nothing else we can still do the latter.

-----

You touched on what I was referring to here:

Bonus round, related to one of the three issues mentioned above:
mothrax-Town implies xvart-scum, although mothrax-scum doesn't quite mean xvart-Town. The pizza for guessing this one has a cheese-stuffed crust.

Let's run through the Night power claims here.
xvart -

Immediate

Hider/Thief/Whathaveyou
mothrax -

Delayed

Roleblocker
Scum (as said by Vi) -

Delayed

kill
Exe -

Delayed

(well, kind of) Neighborizer+more

One of these doesn't match. However, your claim messes with this logic.
Troll -

Delayed

Vigmaker;

Immediate

Doctor(?)

This aside, I do agree with you that xvart's immediate Hide and my ability to predict the kill in advance seem incompatible.

Unvote: mothrax

Vote: xvart

(L-2)

I really want to say something about a tidy Exe/xvart/Uite scumteam given
*xvart calls Uite out for scum early but hasn't said a single word to him since
*xvart said very little bad about Exe before being willing to hammer (this post is the first of it)
*Uite never framed Exe as scummy (other than hypocritical) and never even acknowledged the Exe wagon
*Uite's case on xvart was terrible but after Mariyta shows up he doesn't bother with him at all except to say D2 that he might kinda maybe be scummy
*Process of elimination as given here which nobody has bothered to discuss
and truthfully I MOST want Uite's flip but it can wait.

[Vi]

To clarify though, did you learn that VP Baltar was definitely going to die or that he was being targeted after N0? It sounds like you're predicting deaths in particular with your ability but the mechanics are confusing enough that I'd like to have them as clear as possible at this point.

Immediately prior to Day 1, I was told that VP Baltar would die overNight. Immediately prior to Day 2, I was told that nobody would die overNight AND someone would die during the Day due to nocase succumbing to lycanthropy.

I'm fine with what Vi has claimed. If he's scum and doesn't want to use a kill to justify his prediction, that's fine by me.

Precisely. As scum, I can't keep this act up forever, and the longer I do, the worse it is for my faction.

also, hey, guyz, i'm a pr; want me to claim?

...what

At this point, I don't see the harm in it. We have enough outed roles that it shouldn't affect overall power.

[Vi]

Primer for how to win this game is here

[Vi]

Also, the sudden jump off xvart. You were basically asking me to hammer, and now you've pretty much backed off him. The parallels between the Mariyta wagon Day 1 are perplexing.

If by "asking you to hammer" you mean "pointing out your terriscummy relationship with him", by "backed off him" you mean "unvoted him for someone better while stating that he is one of only three people I want to lynch", and by "perplexing" you mean that you don't have any solid ground for an accusation but wanted to throw something out, yes.

Allow me to explain:

And I'm to believe that gandalphim is a better vote than xvart right now?

I can see how you would take it that way.

As for the backing off part, between your unvote and my post you only mentioned him in #775, where you show doubt about him being scum, though perhaps my reaction was premature. And the parallels between the Mariyta affair really are there. To wit: You ask me to switch to the top wagon both times, which would ptretty much amount to a quicklynch. Yet very shortly after, you leave the wagon yourself to pursue another. I've commented on this before, and I think it's scummy. I'm very tempted to vote for you now, but I want to finish my reread and evaluate what's happened before doing something like that.

Good for you. Incidentally, you never bothered to contest WHY I went down from Mariyta, and in case you missed it Mariyta flipped Town.
Either you've never heard of "context" or you're pretending the same just for this game.

<claim>

How convenient. You know what would give the exact same result? Scum deciding not to kill anyone, and then exploiting that to create a fake semi-confirmed townie.

Precisely. As scum, I can't keep this act up forever, and the longer I do, the worse it is for my faction.

Way ahead of you, but thanks for being predictable!

Fuck, it seems you're right. I'll try to get my stuff out as soon as I can, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to get it in before nightfall. Otherwise, let's just hope I don't die tonight.

Spoiler: Between my claim and how wrong you've been all game, I can guarantee you you won't die Tonight.

775. Start talking about it. I'm fairly positive you'll have time.

---

Apologies for listing xvart as at L-2; I missed mothrax's vote. v.v

[Vi]

Hypnotist... mothrax claimed that earlier. That's not really the effect that he claimed, though... Oh well.

To no one's surprise, I was told I would die Tonight. Troll, I suggest you just let it go through.

Of course, it's entirely possible that we don't have to let that happen.

Vote: Uite

(L-4)
Game, set, etc.

[Vi]

Unvote: Uite
Vote: Uite

(L-3)
~

[Vi]

last night i checked uite and found a . . . lol, did uite ever claim his role? i can't find it.

No. However, I have some expectation for what that claim will be.

[Vi]

Is that so.

If you blocked Uite and Uite is the last scum, then I shouldn't be dying Tonight.

This leads to one of two conclusions.

*Uite is scum WITH someone else (yes, 4 scum - not out of the question given the increasingly huge number of power roles being claimed relative to the weakness of the scum roles flipped so far)
*Uite is not scum, and someone else is (and has some whopper of a role)

The problem here is that there aren't many players left who CAN be scum.

# Vi

# Seraphim (gandalf5166)
# mothrax

# inHimshallibe
# nocase
# Zorblag

# tanstalas
# Uite

There are four people who are extremely likely via their roles to be Town, and four left.

My thoughts were in 776, and Uite+mothrax isn't implausible. Discuss, etc.

Unvote: Uite

with reluctance.

[Vi]

Vanilla is indeed the role I expected Uite to claim. This doesn't say anything about his alignment, but... well, I think we can infer that if Uite is scum, he's vanilla with a partner we can find.

So, there are three targets left for Today. I'll think about it when I'm not tired.

(I don't buy that; 4 scum in a mini us just hard to believe)

Cowboy Bebop Mafia. Plus the amount of power in this Town is scary compared to a Goon and a selective Neighborizer...
Either way I'm sure it'll come up postgame.

[Vi]

Just so you know, I'll be considering Uite confirmed town from here on out unless I get SIGNIFICANT evidence otherwise. He just "town-slipped", so to speak. I can't tell you why, unfortunately.

He already had outed himself. That's why I said i would be considering

him

confirmed town. Because scum would almost certainly be told that they could receive flavor. Town PRs not so much maybe.

This is interesting as well, since he's calling me a PR on what was essentially a VT softclaim, namely my assertion that Mariyta's claim was believable, which I made because it was so similar to my own role.

What's strange about the second quote here is that the

him

is presumably referring to Uite, but it looks for all the world like gandalf was talking about nocase (gandalf #25).

Either way, the other strange thing about this point in particular is that Uite's Town-slip had very little to do with Vanillas requesting flavor. As scum in this game, requesting flavor to blend in would have been one of the

first

things I would have considered.

I'm not unsympathetic to the rest of the case, particularly since he later reaffirmed that particular wording

Eh. I'm not really comfortable with letting scum go free just because they told us that they could get flavor for

power roles

(hint: SCUM PMS WOULD SAY THAT TOO), but lynching another scum is fine.

xvart being so adamant about gandalf-Town based on that daycop claim was bizarre as well.

---

xvart's buddying to gandalf was pretty blatant. He didn't do a lot with tanstalas or mothrax until he had to, and didn't move away from them until he had to.

Exe and tanstalas went at it for a while, but from what Exe is quoting it looks like tanstalas wasn't really doing heavy questioning of Exe.

And tanstalas... well, this post gives something to think about considering one scum had already questioned why we thought Exe's claim was scum-aligned, and gandalf was the one spreading suspicion about it. tanstalas had gone all Day saying "gandalf or Exe", also.

But he also did that clear of Mariyta.

---

This is surprisingly not an easy decision.

[Vi]

Abstain. If I feel it's important to confirm or deny, I will. As far as the clearcut innocent report, I'd say it has already induced enough WIFOM to be effective, no? From my description, I feel I am the most senior/important matriarch of the tribe, so carrying the seal may make sense.

There are no secrets any more. Stop abstaining; it makes you look scummy.

Something is bugging me... Someone tried to frame Uite, vi called him scum so by her dying the natural conclusion would be to assume it was someone she had spoken out against. I need to reread her...

You're trying too hard. If I

wasn't

targeted to die I would be able to confirm them as innocent Today.

[Vi]

No idea.

[Vi]

Target player has a double-vote for the Day.

THAT sounds like something that an Ungrika seal would have to do with.

2 out of 3 won't be bad

To me, this looks like all the world like he knows Seraphim is town. It's really making me second guess my town read on him. Still, Gandalf was hugely scummy as well, especially with the various connections people have pointed out now.

More like I am overly cocky, and hoping my gut feeling on him early game wasn't wrong.

Normally, you don't jump onto wagons with intent to lynch while pointing out how scummy your target is AND implying that it's probably going to be a mislynch.

Now watch this.

There are presently 8 people alive.

# Vi

# Seraphim (gandalf5166)
# mothrax

# inHimshallibe

# nocase

# Zorblag

# tanstalas

# Uite

Crossed out are all the people who are essentially confirmed by someone else (4 scum changes this a bit but never mind). If all of these people are confirmed, then the order of lynches isn't really relevant and lynching correctly is mostly an issue for style points.

So let's go with SIFOM.

Vote: tanstalas

(L-2)

[Vi]

says the unicorn who sheeped onto uite earlier

[Vi]

to answer your question, nocase, it was process of elimination.

also, wow, i'm slow. check this out.

I already said she was my number two scum read at the time.

Then why would you even consider Vi? I mean, I would have approved of the Vi block given my view during the night, but considering RBing someone because he/she leads the town over your number two suspect?

I'm sort of waiting on Troll/Seraphim before casting my Mothrax vote.

lol? I don't think it really matters if I vote now or after Troll/Seraphim come back; but whatever.

VOTE: mothrax

how certain are you guys that mothrax's role is confirmable town?

It's not.

[Vi]

*Seraphim bait goes here*

[Vi]

In spite of the fact that nobody qualifies for a prod yet, activity is lagging. The holidays are over, let's pick up the pace, please.

I'm drowning in my modded games.

Unvote: tanstalas

It feels like I'm going through the motions because... right now, I kind of am v.v

Question for Seraphim is a good one.
Question about mothrax - I didn't really buy the "clear" argument in the first place.
If mothrax is Town he likely sheeped my Uite read without thinking about what it meant. If scum, probably ditto.

[Vi]

nocase - If there are three scum, and mothrax blocked Uite last Night, Uite cannot be scum.
If there are three scum, and mothrax is lying about having blocked Uite last Night, Uite had better not be scum.

Recruitment will turn this game into a nightmare and it would probably be best (at least for Today) to just focus on the PoE.

Also, I'm well aware my continued existence is sketchy. That's why I said (to Troll) to just let the kill go through.

[Vi]

*casually tries to juggle a hammer while waiting* ♪

[Vi]

I am going to get it if we aren't right, but it is pure luck that I am dropping the hammer.

I want to speak up, but given that Seraphim hasn't posted since Monday I just can't work myself up to it.

[Vi]

I anticipated your question from the beginning but in the end it's up to you.

Process of elimination is still very strong.

Lynchable

mothrax
Uite (4 scum)
|
tanstalas
Zorblag
inHimshallibe
Uite (3 scum)
nocase

Unlynchable

Troll is at the top of the list of confirmeds due to his power not necessarily belonging to Town.

Since a recruiter was brought up - use PoE with our existing suspects to find it, and then use association and/or WIFOM to hit the recruit among the Town reads. There's still a chance we can lose with a Mafia Recruiter, but not a good one. More than likely the recruit was done N1.

[Vi]

I see you shiver with antici

Fixed?

[Vi]

The anticipation is killing me. This slot's been my main suspect for most of the game, and it's good to see him lynched. I really hope this means we've won the game.

And if not?

[Vi]

Do you have to specify that you want to use your ability the Night beforehand?

[Vi]

Why tans > mothrax?

[Vi]

The cloud of DOOM cometh.

------------------------First, process of elimination.

nocase is confirmed Town by Troll. The chance of Troll and nocase being scum together is nil, because nocase got his lycanthropy going and there's no way off earth that four scum and a daykill is balanced with the remaining roles.

inHim is, by our continued semi-existence, Town. It would be a cruel trick otherwise.

^^^^^These two are completely off limits.

There is an outside chance of Troll being scum. This would require him to be scum who can push a daykill onto a Townie (in which case he made a good choice <_< ), and presumably he's lying about the other beer. It's possible, but not plausible.

Uite and tanstalas are in an interesting position with gandalf's death. Right now we have no evidence that scum know anything about the V. Townie Role PM (except that they could get one, but it doesn't look like the two flipped scum bothered with that).
More importantly, it doesn't look like Ythill would have told them that the V. Townies could request flavor just like they could. tanstalas told me V. Townies could request flavor long before gandalf started talking about it, so I'm pretty solid on him actually being a V. Townie. As an aside, I actually DID request a V. Townie Role PM after Mariyta claimed, and I did NOT get an indication that I could request flavor (I didn't even get a Role PM proper ). In addition, notice that neither Exe nor xvart played a large part in discussing the details of requesting/flavor around Page 9.

As much as I would like Uite to DIAF, upon reconsideration he's probably more likely to be Town.
*While it was hinted that he had been investigated and had to claim his real role (thanks nocase), his minstrel claim lines up with what was expected earlier.
*There's still a chance that the roleblock works the way we thought before (we're still fuzzy on the mechanics of how it would work and the mod won't clarify).
*Post 203 was what gandalf called a "Town-slip" because he didn't consider mod-provided flavor. I don't have particular reason to believe he actually did or did not remember the mod-provided flavor, so etc. In 236, he said that his Role PM allowed him to request flavor (and this was a few posts before tanstalas said anything about it). Therefore if tanstalas is clear, Uite probably also has to be clear.

That leaves... mothrax, who can't be cleared by anyone and arguably doesn't clear anyone either (the fact that he didn't notice that he "cleared" Uite points to this).

-------------------------And some special topics.

nocase claims to have found needles (of all things) on a claimed hypnotist. This makes no sense whatsoever.

However, it WOULD make sense for a claimed tattoo artist (tanstalas) to have needles.

Now consider that mothrax claims to have roleblocked tanstalas. On one hand, it would make sense that you could roleblock a tattoo artist by taking his needles. On the other hand, it doesn't make sense for a hypnotist in particular to steal needles versus hypnotizing them into inaction.

My first thought (going along with "Curses" in the title) was that these needles are part of a fetish. (You didn't know this was Stars Aligned IV, did you?) However, there's a much more likely explanation.

Consider that xvart claimed to be a cutpurse. xvart claimed to have robbed Mariyta and gotten NOTHING. Given that Mariyta was a beggar in flavor, this actually makes sense. But xvart wasn't a cutpurse, so he either guessed that information or he got it from somewhere else.

Now reconsider that mothrax has needles from tanstalas. ...You can see where this is going.

Plus we're having a hard time figuring out how mothrax's roleblock would technically work anyway, so etc.

---

Troll is not a Doctor unless he either burned his ability prior to N3 or sent his action in well in advance, neither of which is likely. I was dead as soon as the Day ended. (but see the next section)

I know nothing about the kill flavor. I was not told how I would die and there's certainly no indication that I would die of natural causes. I still maintain I was killed by a night-time stuffiness beam *reference no one will get*

However, VP Baltar believes that I may have actually died of natural causes. I'm starting to come around to the idea. I mean really, my role was awesome AND NK-immune. Dying naturally would have been a decent way to balance it, and it would have given Troll's nocurse beer a use. There's nothing in my Role PM to suggest any of this, though - we're just working on the assumption that the Servika don't shoot flu darts at us.

Without knowing anything in this direction, Ockham's Razor goes the other way with it - if scum could have killed last Night, they would have. It really depends on whether the kill was exclusively due to illness, and I don't think we would be able to tell.

---

All of us are pretty unanimous that Uite looks so overwhelmingly like scum that we would have a hard time faulting his lynch.~ 973 looks horrible.

From mothrax's perspective voting tanstalas should be out of the question (he would know by the lack of kill later if he's scum), but lol, logic.

-----------------------------Teal Deer

So tealdeer - We really can't miss. One or both of Uite and mothrax are scum, and mothrax should definitely be the first to go. I must have skimmed past it but everyone else is saying tanstalas is obvTown, so what do I know. Mariyta is suspicious of Troll for starting to argue No Lynch, but only in the scenario that there is a recruiter (we might have Curses; we might have Rogues too). I'm leaning more toward Uite for recruit because of how much his play suffered after early-mid D1, personally.

That's all we've got. Good luck!

[Vi]

LOOKS LIKE THE SETUP SPECULATION WAS COMPLETELY VALIDATED.

Nope. Try again, fail less.

With the knowledge that Troll was scum, it occurs to me that I was right that this post was incredifake. Oh well.

Everything I need to say is in the dead QT. I'm impressed with precisely two people for making the last scum a near-total crapshoot. That's all.

[Vi]

Thanks for modding Ythill. I really appreciated all the effort you put into the setup and the flavor. I hope I get to play in more of your games in the future.

I forgot this.

[Vi]

On another note, the inability of dead QT denizens to sympathize with live townies, especially toward the latter stages of the game, never ceases to amuse.

Fair enough when you put it like that. And I'll admit to starting it with a four-scum theory that was as accurate as my death via natural causes (and knowing about it ahead of time). So we can both take it as a learning experience, etc.

[Vi]

My other comment was I don't believe Troll and I synergize well as scum partners

Troll deliberately doesn't synergize with scumpartners.

[Vi]

My other comment was I don't believe Troll and I synergize well as scum partners

Troll deliberately doesn't synergize with scumpartners.

Yeah, I kind of got that feeling based on some of the early D1 commentary. I've never played with someone as a partner that is so free in clearing people as town, and I didn't even know how to comment on his play because of that.

Clearing Townies is great for scum... if you plan on reneging on those clears later.

[Vi]

*does a little searching*
Also I did not expect this game to be based on actual clans. I'm impressed.

[Vi]

All the gypsy names were traditional too.

Did you get the line about the irony of the Fortune Teller's name? Aishe means, "full of life."

Drifting by in her mourning robe, Aishe considers the crowd and the dais, the players and their dramas. She considers her exit and the irony of her name and yet, though her death is looming, her feet neither tremble nor falter on the path.

Unfortunately, I don't have contact with any of my Hungarian relatives... in part because most-to-all of them are dead.

[Vi]

(Finishing thought)
So I'm basically just a Gypsy In Name Only.

[Vi]

Lynch Troll the Cult Leader first, and then if Sotty still looks unreadable lynch her next.

Interestingly, this game takes Troll off of the very short list of people who have only seen me as scum.

She and I just got called Hulk Hogans of mafia scum in a newbie game

I'm sorry, I can't visualize this.

Please provide a picture to help me with this.

Actually, didn't she and Zachrulez meet on a wrestling forum somewhere?

Yes they did.

[Vi]

@Vi, yeah, at this point we're just missing a game in which we're town together (discounting 3rd parties and multiple scum teams.) I wonder if we combine our forces to try to make it happen whether we can cause the scum to lose or if scum are just going to win all our joint games?

Considering I'm tempted to just put in "Mafia Win TBD" on all of my ongoing games on my wiki page, well...

I'm commenting on the Hulk Hoganness partly because it clashes with your forum persona (that pic you posted, maybe not so much) and partly because my most recent memory of him was his cameo in Muppets From Space

[Vi]

I'm not sure whether to appreciate that you've also seen Muppets From Space or do a double-take at the name of Ythill's kid.

[Vi]

I think it's rather funny that I faked a daycop on scum. Frankly, I don't know why I wasn't immediately suspicious of you and Troll when you took it seriously.

It goes back to what crypto was saying earlier - watching a game from the outside is much different from playing inside.

I think the skill - or intuition, whichever - I need to work on at this point is to be able to cut that difference down... Basically, to stop doing things that make the people in the dead thread facepalm. Or, to become this.

[Vi]

@Ythill, oh, and Troll would have nth'd the flavor bit in the scummies thread but posts past the 4th get ignored. Troll chose not to clutter that thread as it no would have a meaningful impact but Troll be happy to say that Troll would have posted if it would have made a difference.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Thank you! I get so annoyed when people Nth things into oblivion. I don't know why, but that just really irks me in the Scummies thread.

N'th

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

(N+1)^th