The Detectives (Game Over)

[Mehdi2277]

I disagree with a mass claim day 1. All pr doesn't mean that it's useless to keep some prs secret. I'd be willing to use ice's idea for having gunsmiths (roll dice privately and only 1's equal pick GS and 6 being reroll). One or two GS can go through and give a lot of clears, but making them claim pretty much means they die quickly if true. I'd rather let any possible GS's have two nights worth of investigating before having to claim.

I'm not sure what to do with the other roles. Mafia's likely to make a ninja do all kills (and take one or more ninjas) so until that's lynched trackers won't really learn anything. Coroner while useful having more then 3 just means repeated info. 2 coroners (2 simply if one dies early) is also enough. Voyeur I have no clue how that role is supposed to be used well in this set up.

[Mehdi2277]

Please explain how it actually helps outside of 1-3 semi clears by GS claims. Being vague on it being super useful isn't going to change my mind on not wanting it.

[Mehdi2277]

I still don't see how it's actually useful. Trackers see town actions for the most part. So what they report verifies a town pr claim but considering it can be from scum it's not useful. Coroner can't report anything useful on day 1. Voyeur actually thinking on it may be most useful for knowing if a player was targeted by a crooked cop. GS does help but it means outing them. That covers what claiming mostly does and I don't see that as being worth outing all the GS day 1.

[Mehdi2277]

I could actually see that being plausible. Would have to run some numbers but it sounds fine. It essentially makes crooked cops useless. Although I have a feeling bus drivers/redirectors could really screw that up. Role blocker is also very weak with that plan (only way to block and not be tracked blocking is kill the tracker on you). Ninjas will only slightly dodge it (since only one sends in a kill).

P-edit: Benefit is really harming multiple mafia roles and making a lot of GS's as being plausible.

[Mehdi2277]

Well it depends what number of GS is ideal. If those 5 can't be GS that leaves players. If you want 3 to be gs pick a random number from a rng between 1-8 with the first three numbers being choose gs. That would allow independent picking and also make a high chance of not having more then 4 gs.

I'd be fine with a few gs, and then a lot of trackers/voyeurs or all gs/tracker for planning. If it's a few gs then pick a number between 1-8:

1-3: GS
4-6: Voyeur
7-8: Tracker

Then for the five players MOI doesn't want as GS:

1-2: Voyeur
3-5: Tracker
6-8: Coroner

That would make a set up that doesn't really rely too much on any one role making countering a lot more difficult. If I had to estimate on average this would produce: 3 GS, about 4 voyeur, about 4 trackers, and about 2 coroners. The amount of reasonable variation in it could produce something like 4 gs, 2 trackers, 6 voyeurs, 2 coroners, etc.

[Mehdi2277]

If the numbers go out of the chi square value then we'll know some rigging went on. 6 gs is near impossible by percentages so if scum actually try to claim gs a lot then it can make the gs place a pool to lynch from. They can still pick gs on purpose to a more moderate extent, but isn't that mostly the same normally. If everyone just picks the reasons like going to be I expected not that many to pick gs since people repeatedly said only a few need to, or I like gs. I don't think the reason for picking a role is likely to help a lot.

[Mehdi2277]

Why is randomization bad? If you want 7 voyeurs you can do randomization and get that on average (and generally give or take 1). It's the best way I can think of to have control of the number of roles without having people claim what role they'll choose now.

[Mehdi2277]

Can you really apply player motivations to role choices if it was non random? I already said that.

[Mehdi2277]

I'm fine with it.

[Mehdi2277]

I actually marked MoI as town from this:

I ask that all the following players agree NOT to be Gunsmiths – Nuwen, Primate, MoI, CDB, Amrun

It pretty much blocked him off from ever saying the GS was wrong. That and the way he wanted to do a mass claim of roles then results looks town.

[Mehdi2277]

I didn't mention it before, but beyond looking at actions voyeur can really help with identifying the whole scum team roles. And bus drivers/role blockers can not target themselves (so anyone role blocked or bus driven is town if those are the only two possible scum roles alive although until we lynch some scum that's not very helpful to know).

Plus GS guilties/innocents, and one player saying another is lying can help eliminate possible things.

[Mehdi2277]

Gunsmith. Robo

[Mehdi2277]

I got role blocked.

[Mehdi2277]

Does redirector even affect coroners? I know role blocker does, but redirector doesn't mention coroners.

[Mehdi2277]

If your result doesn't tell you diddly crap

about the set-up

or Mehdi's result it isn't currently relevant but with any claim it can become so.

I'd be fine having every claim that knows a scum pr said.

[quote="guile]
For the moment, we can assume that the Gunsmith is town. If he is town, he will either die soon or give a valuable result. If this is not the case, he is either scum or really unlucky.
[/quote]

Can you clarify this guille? It just felt like you thought I'd be role blocked before I said anything.

[Mehdi2277]

Same reason as before (perhaps minor, but I believe it's genuine) I still think moi is town and a lot of the I said two people at the end claim first thing just got into a fight over a minor thing. Guille I trust less for the comment.

VOTE: Guille

And for normal policy should the person role blocked say who they targeted anyway?

[Mehdi2277]

Since it forces people to explain their thoughts a bi moret. Really no one asked why people chose each role which was one of the reasons brought up for not randomizing. Quadz why did you choose voyeur?

[Mehdi2277]

It's not useless, since it can still help in reads (along with hearing why you chose who you did). Right now I think amrun, moi, klazam (through amrun) and you are town. With 4 scum out of the other 7 only three are town. I want to popcorn all the reports along with reasons why you chose each role/target (don't really like the order we used though and to start off I'd like guille's report).

[Mehdi2277]

UNVOTE: Guile VOTE: Nuwen based on the report.

[Mehdi2277]

Do we really need double confirmation to ever go with a guilty.

As for your question her most recent game posts I believe are here.

[Mehdi2277]

I'll parrot moi, but why track me if nuwen is town? Nextly explain the logic the motive for Moi to claim a guilty that quick and early as scum when if scum he could have done that later on or just pushed normally?

I realize it's not a 100 percent guilty, but combining PoE and the fact nuwen was tracked to me makes me think it's pretty likely to be correct.

[Mehdi2277]

The point is nuwen isn't auto scum. My point is a player doesn't have to be auto scum to lynch quick if the chances are really high they are scum.

The main thing now is we agree vote wise.

[Mehdi2277]

If a player has even a 50 percent chance of being scum based on a report I trust (which relates to my town read on moi) I'd be willing to lynch them based on that alone (and have done similar in another game).

Really though it's a theory dispute.

[Mehdi2277]

I'm making up a number for the 50 percent and that should be fairly easy to see. At the very least she has over a 33 percent chance (which is the base chance for any player) day 1 based on the report. What the exact number is can be debated but I do think it is over 50 percent (go check every tracker guilty in every role madness game and I'd expect at least 50 percent to be true). If you're referring to the part Moi could have been lying, well I had him as a town read and the claim feels more likely to come from town then scum there so I trusted that.

Few mislynches when on the first lynch is not a great excuse to be really cautious with lynching (without any guilties how ido you plan to lynch, just be super careful and spend days debating minor details on a scum read since there is last chances to make mistakes).

P-edit: Robo explain your syndrome read more.

[Mehdi2277]

Robo what's your opinion on quadz then? And if you think amrun is town do you think klazam is likely town as well based on what she said.

{Primate, Coron, guile, iceguy} is where I'm expecting the remaining 3 scum (assuming nuwen flips scum).

[Mehdi2277]

If you need town meta on klazam try looking at micro 5. I think it's one of his most recently finished town games. Admittingly his play is different (there he was a lot more active and tended to try to lead more and ended being town leader in later days), but right now my town read on amrun makes him a bit more likely town (I'd think redirecting another player at themselves could work like a pseudo role block and I'd have expected it to be used on town).

Opinion on nuwen is the same (she still needs rope and it's really based on role stuff).

P-edit: Nuwen I'll add if that plan sucked you could have easily spoken against it more during the pre-game (you mentioned once then and could also have picked gs yourself if you hated the idea) vs wait til now to add something to your scum read of him.

[Mehdi2277]

So essentially your PoE is identical to mine?

And before lynching anyone I want to mass claim reports now (guille, ice, coron, and primate can go first or we can use popcorn with guille first).

[Mehdi2277]

My town read on Amrun is really just based on tone and the timing of her posts (in the sense that she just usually posts whenever something is happening vs waiting and tries to lead in a sense there).

Syndrome I'm mostly putting away for A. more likely scum targets first and B. I just agree with a lot of his reads even though he is really parroting me now. The strangest thing in syndrome's play is siding with moi over nuwen when he had nuwen as town and moi as scum before without really transitioning that.

Currently I would want report claim order to go (people who've already claimed or are day coroners aren't on this list):

Guille
Ice
Primate
Syndrome
Klazam
quadz
MoI

[Mehdi2277]

Well just remove them. With you two removed does the list look fine?

I will say I'm actually male though.

[Mehdi2277]

What makes primate above syndrome for you?

[Mehdi2277]

Don't have time to say a lot but for the ninja aspect remember a voyeur can target a player and see what happened to them the night before. Not sure on it, but if voyeurs can target the dead having one voyeur target cdb and see what happened to him N0 would be nice to check for whether or not we have a ninja.

[Mehdi2277]

Cdb. I found the fact he essentially posted just once with no original content to be slightly scummy.

[Mehdi2277]

I'm not really commenting on all the mafia role speculation on scum motivations simply because it can be complicated and easy to go off (like for example why was I role blocked out of the whole player list),

Amrun my answer mean anything to you?

[Mehdi2277]

I disagree. I've worded similar things sometimes as town (mostly so I just don't deal with why are you being a hypocrit or something). Anyway saying it is slightly more town motivated then scum.

[Mehdi2277]

VOTE: Ice

Of that PoE he's the one I'd like to vote most. Guille can not be a redirector or bus driver unless ice is scum (which leaves only one scum role for guille to possibly be which just makes him less likely and if ice flips town then until the at least one of the redirector/bus driver dies guille should live). Coron's recent posts are really just gut slight town. Primate and ice are about equal right now (ice being tipped based on the guille connection so ice town equals 2/3 clear for guille).

[Mehdi2277]

"Primate and ice are about equal right now (ice being tipped based on the guille connection so ice town equals 2/3 clear for guille)."

[Mehdi2277]

I suspect them equally so unless I don't understand the question at all that is the answer.

[Mehdi2277]

Guille, but guille scum and ice town is very unlikely (a 1/3 chance of it happening stacked on the general 1/3 chance). Guille town and ice scum is on the other hand plausible. Both scum also works.

[Mehdi2277]

There's a reason I said I wanted to lynch Ice (info wise it mostly clears guille or gets us a scum lynch). Writing down all the possible scum roles a player could be is going to be useful.

Really guille can not be redirector or bus driver unless ice is lying. The other scum roles that are not tracked are ninjas and encryptor. Both of those roles make little sense for scum guille (the first should go to the most tracked player while the other belongs to the guy who lives longest). It's really why I can't see guille as likely scum at all if ice is town.

Confirming a bus driver exists would be nice. Only one player noticed it so a voyeur checking amrun or works (just don't all target amrun/coron).

Amrun and klazam both scum I'll agree is strange (I still don't think really think amrun is scum in the first place though).

[Mehdi2277]

Amrun is really just a gut town read I have (I'll look over later when I'm home to explain a bit more, but it was originally just a tone thing).

On the other hand I am willing to agree with a primate lynch. He exists, but lacks any true presence (not sure how else to word that). Generally when he posts it's on more minor things vs arguing a lot.

UNVOTE: iceVOTE: Primate

[Mehdi2277]

Amrun moving past all this if you're null on Coron is there a reason to keep the vote on him? And what is your opinion on primate (I don't think you've really talked about him at all throughout the game).

[Mehdi2277]

Robo you really missed the whole bus driver convo? How does it affect your read then?

[Mehdi2277]

This night kill argument is idiotic unless you really want to propose good players aren't allowed to live past n1/0 (in fact I've played games as scum where the reason not to kill someone n0/1 was they die too much already).

Amrun explain your coron read. You only called him scum based on something you later made a null tell.

In fact you've also contradicted yourself with klazam somewhat (well you did say conflicted, but still):

I just realized my wording is confusing in the above. Klazam was a pre-game scumread, but now I believe he's likely town because of the result. I'm still in the fence on how likely it is for the scumteam to target one of their own with a redirect on N1; they could have been scared of a gunsmith, but they could also have been trying to frame a townie. Bleh. For now, I'm going with town purely because of the result, but based on in-thread, he still reads scummy.

Nextly looking back why do you even suspect klazam? You never explained the scum read at all.

[Mehdi2277]

I'm having trouble melding some of my opinions (Medhi as scummy as hell, for example), with how the nightactions went.

I'd also like you to expand on this.

[Mehdi2277]

The bigger problem with klazam is lack of any real push on him for most of the day (and even now you don't really push him) if you find him gut scummy.

[Mehdi2277]

The bigger problem with klazam is lack of any real push on him for most of the day (and even now you don't really push him) if you find him gut scummy.

SERIOUSLY? You REALLY haven't figured out it's because I saw a redirector visit him? What?

Yes when you still have him as one of your three scum reads. Whether he's town, scum, or null it'd be nice if you picked a stance vs just being unsure what your own opinion on him is.

[Mehdi2277]

Overall is what I'm really wanting read wise on him. Right now you've much said both for different elements (and every town can have a scum case built on them and vice versa so overall reads help more then listing everything scummy and pro town he's done if it doesn't decide it or just put him as null).

@quadz, well when a player's died like half of their games on a site with only night starts it might not be the best move I've personally agreed to it fine to let them live past n0. Another one is a player's meta (off site again) for always being scum if alive day 4 or so. There's plenty of reasons to choose someone else (beyond the wifom depending on why scum want specific targets). Considering moi wasn't even a shining beacon of town at the beginning of this day it's not like leaving him alive is necessarily bad.

[Mehdi2277]

Robo you really missed the whole bus driver convo? How does it affect your read then?

That and I am curious on your full primate read.

[Mehdi2277]

A. Intent to hammer (reasons stack up on amrun, and with two people I believe to be town on it it makes me trust it more).
B. Someone unvote amrun (to prevent a possible self hammer)
C. Night action discussion. Any ideas or plans anyone have before ending the day?

[Mehdi2277]

Well I'm most likely to die based on role so having one voyeur on me would be nice (I mostly want to see if a ninja exists or not).

That and I don't want the trackers all targeting the same person (or just having multiple trackers on one player). Trying to get each to be one different player would be best. We have 4 trackers alive with 11 (soon to be 10) players alive. Having each tracker be required to target one of two people would work fine (that would cover 8 people and while me, moi, and robo aren't clear I really doubt moi or robo are scum so I don't want them tracked).

[Mehdi2277]

Silence after I say hammer intent. This list work for tracker targets:

MoI:
Primate
Coron

Primate:
guille
Ice

Ice:
quadz
syndrome

Syndrome:
klazam

[Mehdi2277]

I don't mind tracking who you want as long as some idea is clear beforehand to prevent two trackers following the same person. If you had to track one of two people which two would they be?

[Mehdi2277]

If all trackers revealed potential targets in one of twos then unless the mafia wants to do 0 actions I'd expect they'd still act anyway.

P-edit: I'm fine with that.

[Mehdi2277]

Primate you realize the only reason amrun wasn't at L-1 was to block any self hammer attempts (me and robo already had desire to vote her). There's already been about a day of time to comment on night stuff, so I'll just hammer at 5c (unless someone wants to discuss it more).

[Mehdi2277]

B. Someone unvote amrun (to prevent a possible self hammer)

That's where it was.

Anyways unless you have something else to add to the night discussion I'm fine ending it soon (5c).

[Mehdi2277]

VOTE: Amrun

Forgot the time.

[Mehdi2277]

MoI being scum requires him to have bussed twice on day 1 (assuming amrun is scum and I think she is). MoI scum is very unlikely. The theory of him being scum relies on the fact he didn't die n0 and wasn't targeted by any scum roles. At the same time he was the one who made the plan of specific people not being gs so the mafia could have much more easily just not targeted him since he wasn't going to be a gs.

[Mehdi2277]

So does anyone here know whether MoI even busses as scum much? Part of the argument deals with it's MoI, well if you're going to use that I'd like to actually here some meta explanation with it (first time I've played with MoI).

[Mehdi2277]

I want to claim my result last and we should mass claim reports again (by popcorn). I now think guille is town (based entirely on how ice town mostly clears guille and with only two mafia left the mafia team would have to guille/ice for him to be scum). Syndrome was one of the very early votes on amrun in a place (one mafia already dead on day 1) where scum would not want to deal with a bus. Robo is just town for tone/actions towards scum/etc. All three I'd rather have go near the end (although since it's popcorn if someone suspects them a lot they could go earlier).

[Mehdi2277]

Robo messing up even more actions is a benefit. While I can agree bus driver/redirector is a bit redundant that is not bad. 2 cops causes the power to increase a lot vs 1 cop and I see that to be a bit similar (plus with the two flipped it seems like they focused on messing up actions).

And if a bus driver is slim that'd make primate lying (I doubt he was redirected since if he was klazam would be scum by fact that saying player x is redirected when they're not is easy for that person to cc). I don't particularly suspect him honestly.

And while spec is fun, one of the non robo, syndrome, guille, me people needs to start mass claim. I just dislike long mass claims.

[Mehdi2277]

I personally want Coron to go first. The strange exchange with amrun on that really weak vote I dislike. Primate going first is fine though.

[Mehdi2277]

I really need to keep track of claims better. Primate works then with a fos at Coron. OS has no report either then.

[Mehdi2277]

Primate
IceGuy
quadz08
guille2015
syndromeofadown
Robocopter87
Mehdi2277

This list should work out just fine then (last 4 are really interchangeable with the rule of me last while ice vs quadz I don't really mind either order much). So mainly just wait for primate to show up.

[Mehdi2277]

There's two possibilities:

A. I have a guilty and want to hear everyone else report first and see if any report affects the guilty (mostly if anyone tracked them or something).
B. I have an innocent and want to hear everyone else report first to see any reports that concern the innocent (again mostly for things like them being tracked).

Either way I want to claim last.

[Mehdi2277]

I'd recommend just preparing a list of notes OS. I do have some comments I'm somewhat holding back on until the mass claim is over.

And I'm fine with that list.

[Mehdi2277]

Iceguy's report is the last one missing. I don't really care if Primate says who I chose before or after me (mostly because mafia wouldn't lie about the town pr they chose). I'll give my report and opinions once ice goes if I'm online.

[Mehdi2277]

Ice you go first. I'll claim immediately afterwards (well I'll be showering in 20 minutes, so if you don't by then I'll be offline for a while). Trust me.

[Mehdi2277]

No point completely stalling. It should be easy tell I have a guilty considering how I pushed to be last. Quadz is mafia. He can not be the bus driver which means guille is clear. I'll make a long post when I get home because this is an autowin place. Only scum left is a driver. Starting tomorrow anyone tracked to someone not night killed is clear. No one vote quadz until we've had time to discuss night plans that will guarantee a town win.

Ice I still want your report though.

[Mehdi2277]

I really doubt he'd not use his power. The important thing is he is mafia (no crooked cop theories since he makes little sense to frame). If he flips bus driver then guille isn't clear and my autowin plan will need fixing.

[Mehdi2277]

That works. If he flips driver scum probably have a ninja, but we don't know if it's even or odd night (sad to see none of the voyeurs touch moi). The plan would be similar except it would require a tracker seeing you not target the kill target on an even and odd night. I'm phone posting so I can't easily write the full plan right now though.

[Mehdi2277]

Your worse since I never fosed you at all day 1. I fosed syndrome, ice, primate, guille at some point, but not you. I called you town during day 1 and only because of thinking about amrun's flip did some reads change and I decided to pick you.

[Mehdi2277]

Driver is already confirmed unless primate lied.

[Mehdi2277]

Doesn't matter. We'll find out day 3 (since he will be lynched if quadz flips non bus driver). If it's shown that he told the truth and bus driver is all that's alive even with the mislynch we should be able to create 4 new innocents on day 3 (along with guille).

And I'm home now so in a bit I'll start typing up a detailed auto win plan that covers all cases. I'll assume quadz is not the driver and write that case first.

Mod: What's your stance towards calling the game?

[Mehdi2277]

I apologize for the question since I realized how bad it was.

---

Current role list removing quadz who's being lynched today (mainly for my reference) Only complete assumption for this side is quadz is scum (which will be shown by lynch)

Mehdi2277 - Gunsmith
Primate - Tracker
Coron – Day Coroner
Klazam – Day Coroner
guille2015 - Voyeur
IceGuy - Tracker
Robocopter87 - Voyeur
Syndromeofadown - Tracker

Well here's the full thing on quadz non driver:

1. Bus Driver would have to exist if Primate told the truth.
2. Guille would be fully clear.

Each tracker will be required to track someone specific.

Robo needs to voyeur me.
Ice needs to track needs to Robo.
Syndrome needs to track Ice.
Primate needs to track syndrome.
I'll target Robo.

Now there are 4 trackers. Assuming I'm killed (although me or any tracker dying creates the same effect since confirmed innos is close enough to guilties in that case).

Primate
Coron
Oversoul
guille2015
IceGuy
Robocopter87
syndromeofadown

Next lynch primate. Two potential cases here. A. He's scum and game is won. B. He's town and we know for sure a bus driver exists.

If it's B then three scenarios exist (one would include me living so swap that in the list of 7 with the tracker who died and another has me alive partly).

I. Everyone tracked is claimed to have visited the player they were supposed to and that player was not night killed (night kill target is where a tracker would be sent if they followed a driver forced to night kill). That would confirm syndrome, and ice as town. Next remember that guille will already be confirmed town if primate flips town. Primate will be dead and flipped town. That leaves Coron, robo, and OS for potential scum with two lynches left. Lynch robo. Syndrome and ice both track OS. If either say os targeted someone lynch os. Otherwise lynch coron.

Now there's a different possibility here where guille is nightkilled. That leaves Coron, OS, and me as possible scum. Lynch OS. Have syndrome and ice target me. I'll target myself. Several possible things here.

a. Ice is killed. Syndrome can clear me or say I'm scum (if I targeted myself I'm clear otherwise I'm scum). Syndrome is already clear. If he finds me scum lynch me. If he finds me town lynch coron.
b. Coron/Mehdi is killed. Lynch the one of us that's alive.
c. Syndrome is killed. Ice can clear me or say I'm scum (if I targeted myself I'm clear otherwise I'm scum). Ice is already clear. If he finds me scum lynch me. If he finds me town lynch coron.

II. Everyone is tracked to the player they were supposed to and one of the targets was night killed. That would mean I'm alive. Everyone who went were they're supposed to with no night kill is clear. The person I reveal to be town is clear. Well there's split here so let's go to all the subcases for this one:

a. Ice is killed. Well syndrome can still be proven town. I can prove robo as town. Living players would be (after primate is lynched):

Coron
Oversoul
guille2015
Robocopter87
syndromeofadown
Mehdi2277

A list of 6 with 3 confirmed towns (robo, syndrome, and guille). This also has subcases:

1a. Me, coron, or os is killed. That leaves three confirmed town with two possible mafia and two lynches.
2a. One of the confirmed town is killed. I will have targeted Coron there. If I get guilty one of us is mafia with two lynches left. If I get innocent one either OS or I is mafia with two lynches left. Win either way.

b. Syndrome is killed. Robo can still be cleared here. He'd be the only one cleared here other then guille. People alive would be after primate lynched would be:

Coron
Oversoul
guille2015
Robocopter87
IceGuy
Mehdi2277

I'll target OS.
Ice can track Coron.

Subcases here to:

1a. OS is killed. That leaves Robo and guille alive with three potential scum as confirmed town. Ice can confirm coron as town or scum. If scum lynch coron and then ice. If ice clears coron lynch me and then ice.
2a. I'm killed. Ice can clear Coron. If ice says coron is scum who targeted the night kill lynch coron then ice for a win. If coron is cleared that means robo, guille, and coron are all town which makes ice/OS scum. Two lynches left so lynch OS then ice.
3a. Coron is killed. I can clear OS. If I say OS is town then guille, robo, and OS are all clear. Lynch ice and then me for a sure win.
4a. Ice dies. I can clear OS. If I say OS is town then guille, robo, and OS are all clear. Lynch Coron and then me for the win.
5a. Robo/Guille is killed. I can clear OS. Ice can clear coron. If we clear os and coron scum is either me or ice. We have two lynches. Now if I say OS is scum lynch him then me. If ice says coron is scum lynch coron then him. All cases give a win.

c. Robo is killed. People alive after primate is lynched are:

Coron
Oversoul
guille
syndromeofadown
Mehdi2277
IceGuy

Syndrome can clear ice. Syndrome can have beeen cleared by primate. That means potential scum is within me, coron, and OS.

Syndrome tracks coron.
Ice tracks OS.
I target OS.

Subcases here are:

1a. Me/coron/OS die. That leaves two potential scum with two lynches. Easy auto win.
2a. Syndrome dies. Ice can clear OS. That means scum is me or coron. Still easy autowin.
3a. Ice dies. Syndrome can clear coron or find out he's scum (if the second lynch coron for win). If syndrome finds out coron is town then scum is me or OS. Lynch OS and then me for autowin.
4a. Guille dies. Syndrome clears coron, while ice can clear OS. If both coron and os are cleared lynch me. If one is found to have targeted the night kill lynch them. Either way easy win.

III. One of the people tracked is found not following who they were supposed. Lynch them for the win.

---

I think that covers every single possibility if quadz flips non driver. Anyone see a mistake here? I know the bus drive action requires it's own (much longer case) but I'll work on parts of it tomorrow. It mostly changes who becomes innocent when but parts of it will have their own scenario. It can also remove the need to lynch primate to confirm the driver's existence which is pretty helpful.

It's late and I'll try to work on quadz flipping driver tomorrow (which based on how some of these actually can last til 3p I screwed up there and if quadz flips driver some chances of scum winning may exist, but I'll have to work that out to see if that's true).

[Mehdi2277]

It's really the biggest assumption I have to make. And crooked cops can only give guns for one night. You have to be targeted last night. You flipping town confirms a crooked cop (or me scum, but I did actually write cases where I'm possibly scum). I can't write this plan after you flip since a lot of the actions needed have to happen during night 2. If you flip scum then there really won't be any way to break the game at all.

[Mehdi2277]

EBWOP: Change the last scum to town.

Quadz can you at least tell me what you'd think the correct move would be if I got a guilty any place else? Should I ignore it for chance of a crooked cop?

[Mehdi2277]

Operation mehdi requires bus driving actions to be considered (which is going to make the plan about 20 times longer sadly). I've thought about dealing with ninjas that aren't quadz, but mostly because I doubt they exist I won't really write it (if it comes to that situation I'll just say no lynching twice to get enough results is probably required and someone else will have to make a plan there if I'm dead). Now that I'm awake I'll start writing it in parts.

The two mistakes mentioned are IIa where syndrome does become confirmed town by primate's report. I did screw up with me self targeting in I, but a easy fix is for me to target Coron (since even coron died the fact I'm the only non clear alive would guarantee I'm scum there).

Lastly there are easier ways to break the game if people would be willing to call me confirmed town with requiring me to fully confirm myself, so if everyone is fine without me needing to be completely cleared that'd save me work.

[Mehdi2277]

Oh I screwed up badly then. I thought bus driving plus killing was possible. Well then no need to keep on writing the bus drive plan.

I'll try and see if I can pull out a ninja plan (which would work the same as a janitor/encryptor plan) under the rule of I'm confirmed town already. That should make it doable.

[Mehdi2277]

Yes but I was RB. So I can't have done a scum action. Where's the fourth scum action? (and I can't have lied there well since if a voyeur touched me I would have been confirmed lying).

If someone had said that earlier it would have simplified the if final scum is driver plan (that plan works fine though from what I can see). Still trying to figure out the ninja plan.

[Mehdi2277]

Oh and another thing I just remembered... if quadz flips non bus driver, Coron becomes confirmed town. (due to not being able to bus drive himself night 1 and thus confirmed not bus driver) >_>

Or he lied about driver's existence. Quadz flipping non driver has a full plan set up to win perfectly.

The problem I'm currently having with the ninja plan is scum no killing near the end to force a 4 player mylo and I can't see a way to deal with that. It can still get as far as 2 clears vs 2 unclears and if scum kill any player night actions would guarantee a scum loss. Here's my current progress and if anyone knows a way to fix that ending for a win help please:

Spoiler: Operation if quadz is driver

---

Base plan starts with different actions to before. It doesn't need a primate lynch and guille is no longer clear. Under this plan I'm assumed clear at start.

Mehdi2277 - Gunsmith
Primate - Tracker
Coron – Day Coroner
OS – Day Coroner
guille2015 - Voyeur
IceGuy - Tracker
Robocopter87 - Voyeur
Syndromeofadown - Tracker

I will target coron.
Ice will follow primate.
Primate follows syndrome.
Syndrome follows ice.
Guille voyeurs me.
Robo voyeurs me.

I'll divide this one into a case for each death.

I. I die during N2. Guille/robo can reveal whether I was ninja killed or not. There's two subcases here (was I ninja killed or not).

A. I was not ninja killed. Primate/syndrome/ice are all fully cleared in one quick motion. That leaves 4 unclears and three lynches to go. Primate targets Coron, Ice targets OS, and syndrome targets robo. Robo will target coron. Guille is lynched.

Now divide this case into potential n3 deaths and here's players alive at n3 start.

Primate
Coron
OS
IceGuy
Robocopter87
Syndromeofadown

1. Robo/coron/OS dies. That leaves two unclears with two lynches left. Lynch both unclears for an easy win.
2. Ice dies. Primate can half clear coron while syndrome can half clear robo. Lynch OS. Start of n4 has these people alive:

Primate
Coron
Robocopter87
Syndromeofadown

Syndrome and primate both target robo. Robo will target coron. If coron/robo dies lynch the other. If syndrome/primate dies the one that's alive can clear or confirm robo is scum based on whether or not he targeted robo. Admittingly no killing is a way around this but that has the benefit of forcing scum to do a 1 vs 1 with two clears.

[Mehdi2277]

The me dying case first is probably the toughest case to do, so if I can get that fully done (and mainly deal with the 4 player mylo subcase I'll deal with the rest).

[Mehdi2277]

Just realized I read syndrome wrong. Yeah coron would be confirmed town there. So coron and guille as confirmed town if quadz is non driver.

[Mehdi2277]

So an odd ninja is scum's only chance of winning at all. VOTE: quadz

I'll try to refine the non driver quadz plan with me and coron as confirmed town to make it lot more simple before day ends. Beyond that and letting guille say what he wants tomorrow not much more I have to add.

[Mehdi2277]

---

Current role list.

Mehdi2277 - Gunsmith
Primate - Tracker
Coron – Day Coroner
OS – Day Coroner
guille2015 - Voyeur
IceGuy - Tracker
Robocopter87 - Voyeur
Syndromeofadown - Tracker

Now here's a list of potential scum if quadz isn't the driver:

Primate - Tracker
OS – Day Coroner
IceGuy - Tracker
Robocopter87 - Voyeur
Syndromeofadown - Tracker

Primate follows ice.
Ice follows OS.
Syndrome follows robo.
Robo targets syndrome.
I target syndrome.

Now cases based on death.

I. I die. Lynch primate to confirm without a doubt bus driver exists. If he flips town then ice can clear OS, syndrome can clear robo, primate can have cleared ice. If ice, os, and robo are cleared then syndrome is scum. If one of the reports incriminates another player lynch the person who has the guilty report on them followed by the reporter for autowin.

II. Robo/primate/OS/Ice dies. I can clear or confirm syndrome as scum. If I clear syndrome that leaves 3 potential scum with 3 lynches leftover. Just kill all three (and reports can clear more which could find the scum then).

III. Coron dies. Primate can clear ice, ice can clear os, syndrome can clear robo, I can clear syndrome. This would clear ice, os, syndrome, and robo with me and guille already confirmed. That means primate is scum. If one of the reports incriminates another player lynch the person who has the guilty report on them followed by the reporter for autowin.

IV. Guille dies. Primate can clear ice, ice can clear os, syndrome can clear robo, I can clear syndrome. This would clear ice, os, syndrome, and robo with me and coron already confirmed. That means primate is scum. If one of the reports incriminates another player lynch the person who has the guilty report on them followed by the reporter for autowin.

V. Syndrome dies. Primate can clear ice, ice can clear OS. Lynch primate. If primate is town then the people cleared would be ice, os, me, guille, and coron. That would leave robo for scum. Lynch him for the win. If one of the reports incriminates another player lynch the person who has the guilty report on them followed by the reporter for autowin.

---

This being the much more simplified plan for quadz non driver.

[Mehdi2277]

That's L-2. Wait until guille says what he wants before adding the 4th and 5th votes.

[Mehdi2277]

Primate follows ice.
Ice follows OS.
Syndrome follows robo.
Robo targets syndrome.
I target syndrome.

I will target coron.
Ice will follow primate.
Primate follows syndrome.
Syndrome follows ice.
Guille voyeurs me.
Robo voyeurs me.

These are the two action sets. First is if quadz flips non driver. Second is if quadz flips driver. Everyone will follow these actions. If you don't have an action selected for you for n3 then target whoever you want. And everyone make a short bold line saying I understand the plan.

I understand this plan.

[Mehdi2277]

We have to wait for guille as well, so that works fine.

[Mehdi2277]

I'm happy to have someone hammer him. Everyone's checked in to see the plan and to say what they wanted. OS you can vote quadz too.

[Mehdi2277]

Reports can be claimed in any order since we should be in a auto win path (so if you are online and have a report claim immediately). Specifically this path:

II. Robo/primate/OS/Ice dies. I can clear or confirm syndrome as scum. If I clear syndrome that leaves 3 potential scum with 3 lynches leftover. Just kill all three (and reports can clear more which could find the scum then).

Syndrome is town. Guille is already proven town as am I and Coron.

Final scum is robo, primate, or OS. Those are the only possible scum options left. Three lynches left and the remaining reports should clear things up nicely and narrow it down to two.

[Mehdi2277]

Only report that really matters is syndrome's to be honest. OS can't be cleared with ice dead and primate can't be cleared with the current way things are. If syndrome clears robo lynch primate or OS. If syndrome finds out robo is scum lynch robo.

[Mehdi2277]

How is that even possible? (outside of unlikely mod error) Scum can only do one action now which should have been the night kill. They can't have done another action to interfere with role powers here.

[Mehdi2277]

While I'm trying to get a clean win of the remaining three possible scum primate is much more likely then the other options at the moment (I'd rather not go in detail, but quadz's way of talking to him along with primate's general lack of force with foses off the top of my head I dislike).

VOTE: Primate (Do not sheep this vote until syndrome finds out what happened to his report, but commenting on it would be good since we're probably in a case of OS vs primate)

[Mehdi2277]

OS right now everyone's fully clear except primate (you could debate that I'm not 100 percent clear, but it'd require me to have faked being role blocked and then being on the wagon for all three scum).

Vote Primate and end this if you're town (if you're scum you die tomorrow).

[Mehdi2277]

Yup. So were you town? If yes that should win the game. If you want to lie now, well two trackers are still alive and both can target you (if they clear you I'm lynched otherwise you're lynched).

[Mehdi2277]

All scum lynches is a nice way to end the game (even if two were by reports).

OS I said you weren't cleared. We were the only players not fully cleared. So you were the only one left to lynch from my point of view if Primate was town.

[Mehdi2277]

Even at the end of all this I'm still unsure if this was town sided or just lucky with reports connecting well. Considering there was a pretty high potential of better reports (especially when I was the only gs) I'd say the set up was town sided.

Nuwen/quadz/amrun/primate also just looks like a nice scum team. Curious why MoI was shot over me N1 (and quadz how'd the guilty report make you feel?)

[Mehdi2277]

MoI dying n1 would have saved nuwen from the easy guilty and could have let her live (it'd have also made me die earlier most likely). My report on cdb would have mattered some, but I don't think by a great deal.

I do think ideally town should have 3 GS and not just a single one, but it worked fine in the end.

[Mehdi2277]

Encryptor, both ninjas, and janitor would have been my choices. Coroner can weaken janitor, but if you get them to die it really causes chaos. Day talk is just something I love, so I'd always want it picked.

[Mehdi2277]

I'll probably lower myself to a personal 3 game cap instead of the usual 5 because of school getting more and more busy, but I'll continue to play a decent amount.

Although scum could use their town and scum powers so if I was scum I could have gs'd syndrome and then shot ice (I would be tracked to ice if that happened).

[Mehdi2277]

Was the mafia team required to use a qt or could they talk without it?