The Detectives (Game Over)

[syndromeofadown]

Nancy.

Could we not break the game by everyone selecting tracker and tracking the person below them on the player list?

[syndromeofadown]

Given that scum have the option of selecting 2 Ninja's that worry is rather pointless ...

Plus scum could be next to each other on the player list anyway, so any breaking strategy like that might be impossible.

Wish scum having a counter to each power it might be best to just choose your favorite and not make anything public. idk.

[syndromeofadown]

I don't see how a gunsmith is that useful unless we know exactly who they are. If not any time a gunsmith catches scum they can just fakeclaim gunsmith themselves and WIFOM

[syndromeofadown]

No why would we do that

[syndromeofadown]

I agree with klazam here unless some really smart guy can prove there's a more efficient strategy

[syndromeofadown]

He's not being vague. He just outright told you why it was better

[syndromeofadown]

I've been banging my head against the wall trying to come up with strategies, this is the best one I have right now:

The basic idea I came up with is we pair up a gunsmith with a tracker each night and have them each target each other. The gunsmith would work as a cop investigation for the tracker and the tracker would be a "check" to insure a crooked cop/bus driver/redirector doesn't screw us up.

Obviously there's MANY flaws in this but I think this could be a starting point. We don't even need 1-1 pairs, we could have something like 2 groups of GTGT and one group of TGTGT and each investigate each other in a circle. And of course each night we would reshuffle the pairs/groups.

Let me know what you think.

[syndromeofadown]

why is that

[syndromeofadown]

^huh? Nobody would claim anything, there would be a balance of 6 gunsmiths/7 trackers with roles and pairs randomly assigned (through dice tags I guess?)

Iceguy, the advantage would be multiple gunsmiths essentially working like cops without getting in each others way and using the trackers to mitigate as much damage as possible from the scum power roles.

Actually I think I might have an even better solution, let me do some number crunching, game trees and stuff.

[syndromeofadown]

He's suggesting randomly assigned roles, they can't claim gunsmith. Issue's the crooked cop role, they'll claim to have been targeted by one of them.

Exactly. And the trackers would be extra insurance against crooked cops since either the crooked cop would get busted by gunsmith investigation or tracker report. But like I said it's still flawed since scum can coordinate lies to cover each other, which is why I'm currently working on a way to group and regroup players such that fake reports can get busted with additional investigations without having to necessarily burn a lynch.

Why can't we do dice?

[syndromeofadown]

That's fine, you don't have to like it. In fact I'm almost positive this is NOT the best way to do things, which is why I'm still trying to come up with something better or at least improve on the original idea. Still never hurts to discuss things.

[syndromeofadown]

I really hate to do this but:

unexpected emergency v/la till sunday

[syndromeofadown]

ah ok

[syndromeofadown]

Yeah I'm completely lost here. Popcorn first, lynch MoI later

[syndromeofadown]

I will not go first.

Yes you will

[syndromeofadown]

Why do you want me to claim magna?

[syndromeofadown]

Why do you want Iceguy to claim?

I was under the impression we whoever Nuwen picked would go first. Plus yeah, day 1 didn't leave a super townie impression of him in my mind so I thought he was a good choice.

MoI gets to be town today.

No way.

[syndromeofadown]

Tracker. Quadz

[syndromeofadown]

Okay that should be everyone, lets start playing now. Medhi should reveal his gunsmith result I think.

[syndromeofadown]

Nobody's said anything, fuck it I want to start playing now.
I feel Amrun, Klazam, Mehdi, Nuwen are town right now.
I want to lynch Magna or Guille. Guille's post 201 seems like he's bragging about the roleblock and Magna's just been fishy as hell contradicting himself.

Imma place the first vote of the game on MoI

VOTE: MagnaofIllusion

[syndromeofadown]

Quadz, no she has not. MoI linked to 7 non-game related posts.

I think it’s pretty clear from my popcorn she was my Number 1 suspect. My start of day “One of these two should start popcorning” was made in hopes of not telegraphing my suspicion of her. That’s why I made the choice arbirtrary so it wasn’t telling if I suspected either or not.

Which one is it - was it supposed to be "pretty clear" you suspected nuwen or was it supposed to be "not telling" ?


@Medhi we absolutely should NOT blindly follow guilty results unless they're coming from confirmed town players. Scum have more incentive to lie in this game since they only need 3 mislynches to win with 4 scum players it is to their advantage to 1-for-1 town

[syndromeofadown]

The point is nuwen isn't auto scum. My point is a player doesn't have to be auto scum to lynch quick if the chances are really high they are scum.

Even if Nuwen was 99% scum and we all agreed to lynch her (not saying she is or we are), I don't think a quicklynch is good. We should at least wait for whoever we want to lynch to claim the results they have. If they flip town then we'll have a 100% honest report to work with, which I imagine might be pretty useful.

[syndromeofadown]

So saying "she didn't see it since she is posting in non-game threads" isn't by any means confirmed accurate.

I never said that. She could have seen the thread and just decided not to read it or maybe she wanted to make a big post but it was inconvenient at the time, or maybe she really didn't see it, I don't know. I just don't think that's a solid part of your case at all since every time I've seen a case made based "player is avoiding the thread" the player in question has flipped town. In fact, I can think of a game off the top of my head I played

with you

where this happened (in deathnote's star wars mafia you made a made a case for slandaar being scum based on his activity outside the thread and he turned up town). So I don't think activity outside the thread, especially posting in non game related threads, means much of anything.

[syndromeofadown]

^
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nuwen

hint: If Nuwen were so convinced MoI were scum she would have at least voted him.

[syndromeofadown]

Voyeur confirmed the (moi's)

track

on

nuwen

.

[syndromeofadown]

Racking up the townreads. Medhi is extremely highly likely town at this point. Adding MoI and Robocopter to my town pile since I don't believe that was a bus. 285 looks like a townslip by quadz. Still liking Amrun as town too and Klazaam has amrun's investigation backing him as likely town.

PoE says lynch from: Guille, Iceguy, Coron, Primate.

VOTE: Guille

[syndromeofadown]

I tracked CDB last night. He visited no one.

[syndromeofadown]

FYI: Primate's claim can be verified by voyeurs. (voyeurs can see which actions targeted a player the previous night)

[syndromeofadown]

UNVOTE: Guille
VOTE: Coron

[syndromeofadown]

Why the Coron vote, syndrome?

Evidence suggests Guille is more likely town now.
Your voyeur shows only a voyeur targetted MoI.
Iceguy's track shows Guille targetted MoI.
If Guille were scum and targetted MoI his scum action would have showed up on your voyeur.
Primate and Iceguy could be lying but if they are they can be caught by voyeurs.

I also like guille's point about if Primate is telling the truth one of Coron/Amrun is likely scum.

[syndromeofadown]

why did you target CDB?

He was being too quiet which I thought was suspicious. Plus I figured the quiet guys needed an investigation over someone who was loud and would naturally attract a lot of attention anyway.

[syndromeofadown]

I'm still in the fence on how likely it is for the scumteam to target one of their own with a redirect on N1; they could have been scared of a gunsmith

Huh? The redirector would only change who Klazaam targets, not who targets Klazaam. Redirecting their own team mate would not benefit scum at all except to confuse town.

Forgive me if I'm reading something wrong.

[syndromeofadown]

You're assuming that Guille's scum action would have also targeted MoI. There's no basis for that logic at all.

No but if his scum action targeted someone besides MoI, iceguy would have tracked him somewhere else since trackers track to scum actions when targeting scum.

Of course there's still the possibility Iceguy is lying to cover his buddy or I guess it's also possible Guille is a ninja so he's not completely clear, but it does make him less likely IMO.

EDIT: Ninja'd

[syndromeofadown]

Voyeurs may not target dead bodies from previous nights.

^This is very important^

I feel the redirect on Klazam is very likely true no matter what Amrun and Klazam's alignments are. Given Amrun claimed her results before anyone else, as scum she would leave herself wide open if she were lying about the redirect, and as town she would have no reason to lie.
MoI's case is solid and we should sheep him:

UNVOTE: Coron
VOTE: Amrun

[syndromeofadown]

I also predict MoI will want me lynched now, in which case don't sheep him.

[syndromeofadown]

Well since Dead Body targetting is out I think before we lynch it should be discussed what abilities, if any, should be confirmed from the previous Night.

Looking at Guille's chart, it doesn't seem like there's anyone worth retroactively voyeuring other than Coron/Amrun to confirm the bus drive. Confirming the bus is actually a pretty big deal now that I think about it considering if Primate IS telling the truth, the only ones who could have performed the busdrive based on the claims last night are Iceguy and Primate himself. And if he's not, well then he's scum.

Thinking this through:
Guile and Quadz confirmed each others voyeurs meaning the only scum roles they could have would be ninja/janitors or they could be scum together (unlikely)
Robo could have bus driven and then lied about the voyeur on nuwen (unlikely based on gameplay)
Robo confirmed MoI's track on Nuwen. Therefore MoI didn't busdrive
Coron/Amrun can't busdrive themselves.
I suppose by some bizarre play amrun could have redirected Klazam into bus driving her O_o But then why would Klazam claim day coroner?
Medhi was roleblocked and is obv town.

The more I think about it the more I think a voyeur on Coron is a good idea.

[syndromeofadown]

Actually I take that back, Quads could have voyeured MoI and bus driven someone else, however Guille could not have bus driven because of Iceguy's tracker. (unless Iceguy is lying too... damn)

[syndromeofadown]

However the point still stands, simply confirming the bus driver role exists I think will help us out.

[syndromeofadown]

Going to the gym now, I'll post something more substantial when I get back. But just glancing over the thread here:

Quadz: don't you think scum would avoid targeting MoI with scum powers because, being the player he is, he is more likely to attract the attention of voyeurs and thus give away information about which scum roles they have and possibly give out information on MoI's alignment?

[syndromeofadown]

And come the fuck on, you don't think it's the slightest bit weird that scum didn't even touch you with a night action? That Nuwen used her roleblock on Mehdi? That the redirect was seen on Klazam?

Why would you bring this up again after agreeing there were valid reasons for scum to not target MoI with an action? You also claimed to have voyeured MoI night 1 and saw only another voyeur. This means you knew he wasn't targeted by any scum actions since the very beginning of day 1 - and yet your early day posts you are calling MoI town and don't find anything off about him. Why did it take you until day 1.5 to find anything the slightest bit weird about scum not touching him?

@Amrun:

Who is your biggest scum read right now?

[syndromeofadown]

As for Coron, yes, the thing I noted earlier I decided was probably null - but I still have a gut scumread on him. In particular, his vote on Primate is just completely nonsensical. It seems fabricated, to me.

His vote on Primate comes well after you decided to park your vote on him.

[syndromeofadown]

Night action discussion. Any ideas or plans anyone have before ending the day?

I think it's alright if everyone just does their own thing. There might be a way to optimally organize night actions but I don't know.

[syndromeofadown]

Medhi, what do you think of allowing only Robocopter to be the one to target you? This way anyone else being tracked to you would be considered scum. Thoughts?

[syndromeofadown]

What the hell are you waiting for?

[syndromeofadown]

If someone has evidence that a bus driver exists they should say so.
If someone voyeured MoI they should say so.
Mehdi should claim his result.

Until then we just wait.

[syndromeofadown]

I'm okay with a popcorn. I think Primate should go first.

[syndromeofadown]

You do realize coron claimed day coroner right? So he wouldn't have anything to claim...

[syndromeofadown]

I actually like coron's point about voyeurs going before trackers. I'm okay with his list, with mehdi going last if he wants.

[syndromeofadown]

I tracked quadz and he did indeed visit mehdi.

[syndromeofadown]

Iceguy claim, now

[syndromeofadown]

I'm not trusting you.

I'm not trusting you. And frankly this mass claim is taking way too long.

[syndromeofadown]

Quadz is mafia. He can not be the bus driver which means guille is clear.

It's still possible he bus drove night 1 and chose to perform no mafia action last night for whatever reason.

[syndromeofadown]

Perhaps we should make 2 plans - one if he flips bus driver and a back up in case he's not?

Unrelated note, but -Guille- it'd be much, much appreciated if you made another chart for last night's actions once Ice guy claims, if you could. If not I guess I'll try to make one myself but it might not be as pretty.

[syndromeofadown]

Yeah, I would consider it bad modding practice to end the game based on assumed town actions, unless it were something like 2 confirmed town masons at 3 person lylo, and even then I would rather just play it out.

[syndromeofadown]

Your plan looks solid. Only thing I'm a bit confused about is how I become confirmed town at IIa., but even if I'm not confirmed town at that point it just essentially becomes IIb. anyway so it's not a big deal. Other than that I don't see any errors.

[syndromeofadown]

Operation mehdi requires bus driving actions to be considered (which is going to make the plan about 20 times longer sadly). I've thought about dealing with ninjas that aren't quadz, but mostly because I doubt they exist I won't really write it (if it comes to that situation I'll just say no lynching twice to get enough results is probably required and someone else will have to make a plan there if I'm dead). Now that I'm awake I'll start writing it in parts.

Not sure what you mean in the first line...remember mafia can't bus drive and kill on the same night, so I don't think we have to worry about that. And even if they did that would help us more than hurt us.
I started working on a game plan for if quadz flipped bus driver with the assumption there was an unknown-night ninja... I tried a no lynch plan but it turned out to be much worse than lynching. Couldn't get an auto win, but got very close with a worst case scenario of 2 confirmed town (and at least one player who is likely town in my opinion) alive out of 5 players with 2 lynches remaining.

Lastly there are easier ways to break the game if people would be willing to call me confirmed town with requiring me to fully confirm myself, so if everyone is fine without me needing to be completely cleared that'd save me work.

I'd be okay with that, not sure if others would.

[syndromeofadown]

Not only that but Mehdi is town anyway if quadz flips scum. If mehdi were indeed roleblocked night 1 as scum, that would mean only 3 scum actions occured night 1... that's simply impossible unless Primate is lying about the bus drive. (which would make him the last scum if quadz flips scum)

The only other explanation is if nuwen and mehdi created an elaborate gambit where Nuwen only tracks mehdi and mehdi claims a roleblock on himself... that would be really stupid.

[syndromeofadown]

Oh and another thing I just remembered... if quadz flips non bus driver, Coron becomes confirmed town. (due to not being able to bus drive himself night 1 and thus confirmed not bus driver) >_>

[syndromeofadown]

Re: post 605
Yep, that's pretty much exactly what I came up with. A few things though:

Remember, after day 2 is NIGHT 3. Therefore in 1A, not only are myself/iceguy/primate cleared but Guille is cleared as well. (due to him only being able to be odd-ninja) which leads to a trivial win due to so many confirmed town.

Continuing on, if you ARE ninja killed that would confirm an ODD ninja. We would lynch guille the next day (day 3), and going into night 4 (an even night):
I track robo who voyeurs me (remember the voyeur has to voyeur whoever tracks him)
Primate tracks oversoul
Iceguy tracks coron

guaranteed to have 2 confirmed town at 5 players. And I'm pretty sure every other path leads to the same outcome at worst (2 confirmed town at 5 players remaining)

[syndromeofadown]

Actually before anyone else votes we should make it ABUNDANTLY clear that everyone knows exactly what night action they're going to perform. I don't want careless town screwing this up.

[syndromeofadown]

I will track robocopter if quadz flips non driver.
I will track iceguy if quadz flips bus driver.

I understand this plan.

@Robo if quadz flips town:
trackers track who they think is scummiest
voyeurs track who they think will be night killed

[syndromeofadown]

Not much to say

VOTE: quadz

[syndromeofadown]

What is AC?

[syndromeofadown]

I didn't get a report O_o

[syndromeofadown]

Hold on I'll ask the mod real quick

[syndromeofadown]

I tracked robo to myself. Robo is town!

[syndromeofadown]

Coron is already confirmed town too. There's really nothing we have to do except lynch Primate and if he's town lynch OS. I really doubt OS is scum mainly because it wouldn't make sense for a Bus Driver to claim day coroner. Ninja maybe, but not a bus driver.

VOTE: Primate

[syndromeofadown]

Yes but he couldn't bus drive himself.

[syndromeofadown]

Some Thoughts

1. I messed up on N1. MOI should have died. quadz submitted a CDB kill and later someone changed it to MOI, but in my spreadsheet it never got added. I always try to confirm actions by looking at PMs, but in this case, I saw quadz's and assumed that confirmed it. The game would have turned out different, I suspect, had MOI died N1, but other than being pretty good at these types of setups, before the game begins I'm not sure MOI was any more obvious a target than anyone else.

2. Scum took.... interesting roles. The game, minus PRs, is extremely scum sided, with 4 mafia. So my theory was that mafia would optimally do all they could to negate any and all power roles, figuring their natural advantage would win them the game. With that in mind, I split the ninja's into two, forcing mafia to take two roles that way. But scum definitely SHOULD have taken the ninja's barring town deciding to use a no-track strategy. I'm not sure the mafia quite understood how the redirector and bus driver were going to work, but still... ninja in this situation was more powerful.

3. The gunsmith is the key part to this setup. The fewer there are, the more powerful each is. I love that as a concept. But there are no protective roles, so once mafia became aware that there was a gunsmith and only one, that should have been their aim.

4. Had I been scum after this game's pregame chat, I would have picked both Ninjas, Encryptor and either a RB or a Crooked Cop.

5. This game I think is fun and works decently well, but it has a weakness in that which team does well is largely decided by pregame and N1 actions. That's not necessarily fatal, but it can make one side or another feel outmatched and apathetic.

Anyway, love to hear what you all thought.

1. Lol, when quadz posted his Tinfoil hat case on MoI he kept saying "scum was dumb for not killing him" I really got the vibe that he was scum that was just pissed he didn't kill MoI. I would have been pretty mad if the guy I wanted to kill lead 2 scumlynches on my partners.

2. The bus driver really helped us more than anything since it allows us to confirm 2 players as not being a scum role we know exists each time its used.

4. Yeah, I would have picked 2 ninjas, a crooked cop (just for wifom if they're lynched) and a lynch janitor or Encryptor.

5. I don't think this setup as a whole is imbalanced, but it's swingy depending on which roles town/scum take. We also got really lucky.

scum/dead qt?