20th-Century Philosophy Mafia (Mini 1388) Game Over

[Leafsnail]

/confirm

[Leafsnail]

So Leaf, Dun and qwints ... nothing to say at all about Benmage's statement?

Seemed kindof contrary to the spirit of the rules. If that's how it's done here now then whatever.

Confirm stage is for confirmations.

Neither policy is stupid though both have exceptions. Chainsaw defense noted.

A man who agrees with me in words but not in actions. The kind of man I hate.

Vote: qwints

.

[Leafsnail]

@qwintz: What policy are you working from exactly? Destroy All Jokes? I mean I assumed that you yourself were joking but if you are it isn't funny anymore.

Um, whut? There is not a single rule in the Mod’s ruleset that says “Confirmation stage is only for confirmations. No actual discussion is to take place during that time frame”.

That's why I said spirit rather than letter. I've never seen anyone else start a game during confirmations so I assumed it was one of those unwritten rules like "Don't broadcast your role pm on national TV".

Keeping that in mind scum generally have access to their QT during that period even if they do not have Daytalk I see no reason to artificially restrict discussion to Town in a period when the scum generally are planning the Town downfall.

Do you disagree?

No, but that's more of a "How would you set up the rules to a game you were running?" question. It's irrelevant to the rules of the actual game I am playing.

Although really if what you say about the scum QC is true that'd be a good reason not to start talking during confirmation even if you're allowed to - doing so would give the mafia a chance to talk about the developing daygame that they otherwise wouldn't have. Unless you're planning to let the day run right up to deadline and therefore need to squeeze every available second I don't see the benefit.

[Leafsnail]

I'm as serious about my policy vote as GreyIce and benmage are about their claims.

Hilarious. Please answer again in a way that is useful. What policy?

Ugh I can't play mafia ironically, guess I'll bite the bullet and not get the jokes.

@Benmage: First post looks serious and like a call to arms, the rest seem jokey and don't follow it up. How come.

@GreyICE, inte: Can I have a non-ironic post each from you two please. I'll give you a prompt of "The most interesting post so far" if you're stuck.

@MacDougall: Please post.

[Leafsnail]

Leaf, the policy of lynch all claimed scum.

Even for jokes oh right I've already exhausted your dialogue tree, nevermind.

It's page 3, sup dawg?

Anyway, I thought post #38 was really interesting and contained some useful insight.

What do you think, Leafsnail?

D-, minimal effort, see me after class.

[quote="In post 73Seriously though, has anything of note happened other than GreyICE's joke claims? Sticking with Ben because of the sheep post.[/quote]
Nothing of note will happen if we all sit around complaining that nothing of note has happened.

@inte ugh

[Leafsnail]

qwintz can you please stop being dumb and vote for people based on some kind of reasoning instead of regurgitating catchphrases, thanks.

D-, minimal effort, see me after class.

More effort than you, Leafsnail.

Do bother to tell me, what amazing conclusions SHOULD I be drawing about the game so far? Because you've certainly drawn none. You've just sat there and expected the rest of us to draw some, and criticized us when we haven't done your homework for you.

So I need to give you a mild jokey criticism to make you post any substance?

Unvote

,

Vote: GreyICE

. How about I suggest that you are just sitting there doing literally nothing except maybe jabbing at anyone who talks to you in the hope that they go away? I don't see how you can complain about not being able to draw inferences from the game so far while also not attempting to create any discussion that might allow you to draw those inferences.

[Leafsnail]

Leaf do you think that is a scumtell, what you said right now?

I do think that being purely reactive is a scumtell, yes. It suggests you're only getting involved when your survival is on the line.

Re: nameclaiming - It'd allow the mafia to deduce roles, so bad idea.

Don't mind discussion.

Mind people who sit there asking questions and complaining about others not having opinions when they've offered no opinions and answered no questions.

Seems hypocritical at best. At worst it's an awesome way to look town while saying nothing about anyone (which lets you jump on any wagon for any reason).

So answer me: qwintz, town or scum and why?
If you later today change that opinion I will want reasons.

I've answered all questions directed at me (exception: I won't answer "no u" bounceback questions if the other person hasn't). I'm trying to ask questions in order to gain decent opinions because I was finding the game completely unreadable due to virtually every post being ironic and contentless. There's at least something to go on now.

You are scum because you only seem to care about the one player who's asked a serious question of you. I don't get what kind of townie would sit around hoping that mafia will fall into his lap like that. I therefore think town on qwintz because I don't see him bussing so early if he's acting like an idiot anyway. His reaction (or lack of reaction) to getting a bunch of votes felt vaguely townish too.

Rolefish accusation retracted, of course.

Why are you voting shos exactly. Because it looks more and more like you're just leaving your vote there to avoid attention while making up reasons for voting him post-hoc.

Not until the equally dumb play has stopped.

[/quote]
Please tell me what play you think is dumb and should be stopped qwintz.

[Leafsnail]

Well no-one's claiming scum anymore. Self-voting seems fixable though I guess

[Leafsnail]

@shos Actually I think qwintz's "inability to express an opinion or take a risk" accusation sounds about right. Do you deny that it's the case? If your excuse is that discussion hasn't been good enough then why haven't you tried to get it moving?

That’s an interesting premise … what leads you to believe this is true in a Acosmist game at all?

Surely the point of a theme game is that the roles are related at least somewhat to the rolenames? Otherwise it's just "regular mafia with random names attached". Or am I the only one who thinks like that.

So what are your thoughts on Dunham and Mr.Ree?

Dunham - mafia (thought I implied it in my accusation), not quite as strong a read as GreyICE right now. Waiting on an answer from him about his vote.
Mr.Ree - hasn't been playing at all so I left him null, but I now notice he has actually been online on the site (unlike MacDougall who seems to have vanished). So I lean mafia and I will support a lynch on him if he doesn't start playing.

So your read on Qwintz is 100% based on me being scum.

Bzzzzt

Wrong answer

Vote: Qwintz

Hey Qwintz, lets say he does somehow get me lynched,

and I flip town

. Tomorrow he can just 180 and go "well, guess GI was town after all, and that means qwintz is scum!"

That's what I mean about leaving options open. It's scummy. And leaf is scum.

So you have a problem with my read of qwintz but no problem with my read on you? Ok then. I like the way your logic requires the premise "GreyICE is town" (bolded) to work. Might as well have just said "I am town, and Leafsnail is attacking me, therefore

qwintz

Leafsnail is scum".

Incidentally if we're talking about hypocrisy your options are looking awfully open, what with you saying absolutely nothing about anyone who isn't me.

[Leafsnail]

Unvote

,

Vote: Dunhamganger

. You ignored my question in #112 and kept doing the same stupid thing before jumping off shos for no reason. MoI has a nice succinct case in #145, go read it everyone.

Yes, you are the only one who thinks this way. In fact modern MS site-meta is to take nothing flavor wise for granted (be it how roles relate to flavor or how alignment relates to flavor).

Now I have to go look up your recent game history …

I'll save you the time - my last MS games were in 2010. The last (only, I think) one with rolenames like this was Go Play in Traffic (ugh how the fuck did we lose that game).
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=14014
This featured "red light camera, a cop" and "spike strip, a vigilante (with kill flavour "punctured")". Both of these strike me as pretty blatant, especially once the existence of a puncturing vigilante becomes public knowledge.

I'm aware that a claim probably wouldn't allow the mafia to perfectly work out everybody's role, but if the presence of a role is indicated to them (eg they are blocked, a kill is protected from, a player is killed) they may be able to work out which rolename fits that role best. Unless the current site meta is to assign the roles and the flavour they give literally randomly, which strikes me as pointless but whatever.

So you think a scum-team of GreyICE / Mr.Ree/ Dunham works with qwints as Town?

Yes, that sounds fine. qwintz' more recent posts are decent.

[Leafsnail]

It is interesting how my logic requires GreyICE is town to work. On the other hand, the hypothetical involved me being lynched, at which point the question would be a binary "did Acosmith lie to the entire town or did Grey actually flip green?"

So, Leafsnail, if you did somehow lynch me today, is my green flip a green light for you moving onto Qwintz tomorrow, since your entire read on him is based on me being scum?

That's a weird hypothetical but the answer is no. Qwintz is now looking town on his own merits. Mr_Ree and Dunham are the suspects I have other than you.

inte took a pointless shot at me for not quoting the posts I was referring to (ironically, without quoting the post he was referring to) instead of commenting on the content of the case.

Sooooooo.

Scum?

Leafsnail's getting there too, since he waited for a cue from MoI to actually vote me after pretending that me not answering his liddle baby question was somehow the end of the world.

This is unbelievably dumb. You failed to answer the question (and in doing so failed to explain your shos vote at all) and also jumped votes for a really stupid reason. You haven't even bothered to deny the accusations I've made of you, much less explained them.

I'll sheep you on Dunham tomorrow, Ree is too awful for words.

Leaf, I haven't forgotten about you.

So I'm bussing one of my partners today and putting another on my shortlist? Copying the suspicions of the person you've been accusing for most of the game strikes me as an odd tactic.

But if you want to vote for Dunham then please be my guest. Do it early and it will look less like bussing.

Vote: Inte

his posts rub me off badly. arrogance coming off of them, and well, as post 167 said.

Arrogance isn't a scumtell.

So I think it is safe to say your ‘fears’ about mass-name claiming aren’t that strongly founded. Lastly here is a link to the last Philosophy game. Please review it and see if that game supports your fears. I very much doubt it does.

Fair enough, I withdraw that objection to a nameclaim. However, if the rolenames mean nothing with regards to roles and the mafia have fakeclaims (like they did in the linked game) I don't see how a nameclaim would gain us anything at all.

That’s not my point. My point is that for you to believe qwintz Town and that particular team as scum that Grey would be the only one to get on that early L-2 wagon.

Do you think scum would allow a L-2 wagon on Town to form without making a L-1 vote to perhaps force a claim?

I see no contradiction. Bumping up a flash-wagon to L-1 would attract unwanted attention, so it's hardly a no-brainer action. Especially since Dunham and Ree are both looking to be the cowardly attention avoiding types.

[Leafsnail]

Oh you deserve to die. You're already lining up a mislynch of Dunham's flip.

I don't even understand what you're saying here. Vote Dunham.

[Leafsnail]

Hey Shadow ... who is scum?

[Leafsnail]

The thing which bothered me about Mr_Ree over the other lurkers was that he was still around and making posts onsite. But now I've realised

FourTrouble

is doing exactly the same damn thing. Jesus christ come and post your suspicions guys. What is it about this game that makes you two unable to post here.

Also Dunham's #224 should remove all doubts. I'd like all people who think Dunham is town to complete the sentence "Asking someone about somebody else's alignment is a loaded question because..."

Some patience please, the important questions will be dealt with in due time, but not inappropriately rash.
Well, at least some answers to that seem pretty easy after reading through everything.
Pretty certainly dun, but that's no news at all...
Probably ben, at very least he's been frickin' useless so far.
Some people I'll need to ISO to get a better read on, I think... That may take some time.
Also there are still some lurkers around that I find it impossible and too early to get any read at all on, so I am happy with 1 and a half scum reads for now...

Why no vote and/or reasoning on Dun? Why Ben (who has been left unable to post due to Hurricane Sandy) and not any of the other lurkers who are far more suspicious? How about opinions on people who are actually making posts?

You seem to have just taken the prevailing opinion on who is scum and added a random lurker in an attempt to look original. This is a really bad post, and it comes after two days of furious active lurking. You've moved yourself into my top 3 scumreads (now Dunham, GreyICE, Shadow Dancer, with Mr_Ree moved to "please replace out or die to a vig").

I have to admit Dunham is utterly horrible beyond all compare.

Then vote him. Also explain how I'm "lining up a mislynch of Dunham's flip".

[Leafsnail]

No. Because there's no town explanation for Mr_Ree's behavior. Dunham is playing like shit, but Mr_Ree is NOT PLAYING LIKE TOWN.

And you're saying "oh hurr durr Grey won't vote Dunham, even though I won't explain why I think Mr_Ree is town, or what he's done, etc. so he clearly doesn't want to be involved in the lynch lol he's scum."

You just want an excuse to push me tomorrow, because you can't get traction today. Fishing for a mislynch much bro?

@Xis: This is not me and Kast. Leaf is ACTING SCUMMY. Look over his posts, seriously, what makes you so sure he's town?

But the Mr_Ree vote is EXCELLENT.

Mr_Ree is a lurker who has no interest in the game. I certainly wouldn't call him town but he seems like a bad lynch. Dunham has performed multiple unjustifiable actions and the fact that he's actually been playing means it's a better lynch.

Your "fishing for a mislynch" accusation still makes no sense. Your argument revolves around a central assumption that "GreyICE is town".

[Leafsnail]

I want to play a game.

Name them.

- Maintaining a random vote and suggesting it was serious
- Coming up with a reason for that vote long after it was made... and then immediately dropping it after you realised the reason was wrong. But still maintaining the vote with no reasoning
- Sudden jump away from that vote for a bad reason
- Refusing to answer any questions about the above
- Referring to the most basic question possible as "loaded" and refusing to answer it

[Leafsnail]

Leafsnail, why do you think Mr_Ree is disinterested in the game?

Tell me, Leaf

Because he wasn't posting in it

[Leafsnail]

MoI is actually incorrect there as far as I can tell - Acosmist only prodded MacDougall and FourTrouble there, not Mr_Ree

So it seems more like he was following the game, and yet not posting, yes?

Yeah, that's what disinterested means.

[Leafsnail]

You have a really odd definition of disinterested GreyICE.

[Leafsnail]

If I am not interested in a game, I would not be checking it every 30 minutes to read the new posts.

I'd be like "this game is stupid, I'll open it up every once in a while to see what the dumb people in the thread have posted."

Active lurking, Leafsnail. Do you accept it as a scumtell?

What you just described is not active lurking. It's looking at a thread once in a while (the fact that someone responds 30 minutes after your post suggests they might be in the same timezone as you, not that they check every 30 minutes) and not caring enough to make a post. Mr_Ree's (not active) lurking does not seem like a conscious mafia strategy to me since it's at the point where it's causing him a lot more harm than good. It's more a null tell showing lack of engagement in the game.

@Xis, yeah. I think so. I would have switched to Dunham a while ago but since both Ben and Grey seem to have such a problem with my current vote, I decided to leave it there until Ben either returns or gets replaced.

Wait, what the hell is this shit. Don't undermine my argument by actually being scum.

[Leafsnail]

I haven't got a town read on him and I never suggested I did. Now stop making stupid arguments and vote actual scum Dunham.

[Leafsnail]

I'm prepared to cut Benmage some slack today considering he was caught up in a major natural disaster and all.

How are you not voting shadow?

Doesn't look like Ben is coming back anytime soon.

unvote, vote Dunhamganger

Please explain "I would have switched to Dunham a while ago but since both Ben and Grey seem to have such a problem with my current vote, I decided to leave it there until Ben either returns or gets replaced" from #270. What the heck were you saying?

No one else has come close. Mr_Ree would be the worst offender, obviously, if Benmage hasn't just abused his limited access to throw a vote on the largest wagon for self-acknowledged town cred in MoI's eyes. Leafsnail is being petty and lazy and qwints just the latter, while I don't really understand what shos is doing.

Hmm... how to extract an answer.

Oh lord high Dunham, grand king of mafia and ultimate arbiter on the acceptability of questions, please bless us with your thoughts regarding the alignments of these misguided souls who would dare to vote you. Please do not to speak in certainties, instead speak in vagaries that you'll be able to go back on later should you so choose. Amen.

[Leafsnail]

I'd like to draw everyone's attention that Shadow Dancer was posting plenty until three days ago. Then I called him scum in #228. He apparently decided to stop posting in this thread altogether, even though he's still around onsite. I sure hope he has a good explanation for this when he gets back!

OTOH I'm this close to just policy lynching Dunham for being angry that Benmage got caught in a major natural disaster.

I can't disagree with the sentiment but this strikes me as one of those "keeping your options open" things you keep complaining about

@Leafsnail: I don't quite understand what you're asking. What changed my mind? The news. I was looking up pics of the hurricane.

I get that. I don't get why Ben and Grey having a problem with your vote was a reason to keep your vote where it was.

[Leafsnail]

EBWOP: "everyone's attention to the fact that"

[Leafsnail]

See? That's not really scumhunting. That's pretending to produce results by portraying yourself as the catalyst of catching scummy behavior.

I've read this 5 times and I still don't understand what your point is.

I am willing to let Dun live, though I suggest he try to take a bullet ASAP.

Hmm yes ask scum to block their own kill, sounds like a great plan

[Leafsnail]

Yeah I didn't think it was an actual argument, just checking.

[Leafsnail]

@MoI: How did you go from

FUCK NO. NOW YOU'VE GOTTEN TO THE POINT WHERE YOU PISSED ME OFF WITH THIS CRAP AND THERE IS NO TURNING BACK.
...
SOMEONE HAMMER THIS CHEEKY FUCKING SCUMBAG BEFORE HE FAKE-CLAIMS SO HE DOESN'T OUT A TOWN POWERROLE!

to

Bodyguard is a pretty damn stupid claim as scum so giving him time to prove it by flipping is the most Pro-Town move.

I really don't get what's so magical about a bodyguard claim, or why someone who was prepared to perform a lynch without a claim would then be convinced by that claim to stand down.

I wouldn't've said the Mr.Ree was a bad lynch so long ago, but it's being led by the worst possible people (Dunham, Grey) . Also Fourtrouble's jumping onto the wagon was terrible and GreyICE's replacing out of the game really irritates me.

[Leafsnail]

EBWOP: first sentence of last paragraph should start "I wouldn't've said that Mr.Ree was a bad lynch

not

so long ago"

[Leafsnail]

Yes it is pretty clear you don’t get it. I’m not generally of the policy of lynching un-counterclaimed Power-roles in Mini Games when nothing about the claim is inherently borked.

So he’s claimed Bodyguard. This leaves us these options.

1. He’s Town and telling the truth – If this is what has happened then he’ll be biting the bullet for some more useful Town sooner or later. Also it gives us some insight into the nature of the set-up with his Town flip.
2. He’s Scum and he’s fake-claiming Bodyguard – Well that means he’s incredibly stupid (aka RedFF level of stupid) and has now assured that he first actual claimed Town Powerrole can’t be killed on Scum’s schedule.
3. He’s Scum and really is a Bodyguard – well then some other killing force is out there and knows they can’t get to the really juicy Scum Roles he protects without killing him first. Problem solved.

If there is anything else going on (like he’s moron Town fake-claiming as VT) well whelp, Mod Blacklist post-game.

Does this help with your understanding?

This answers half of the question. It doesn't explain why you were ok with Dunham being lynched without a claim if a claim was sufficient to make you back off the lynch. "Hammer him without letting him claim" is surely something you only say if you're so sure of someone's guilt that no claim could sway you.

1 is irrelevant because he isn't town. 2 is pretty leaky (he could claim being blocked or strongman scum, or even just take the lynch since he was a dead man walking till he made that claim) and I don't get 3 unless "Dunham, a guy who should have been lynched day one, successfully protects a more valuable member of his team" is meant to be a good thing.

[Leafsnail]

I'm pretty sure there were plenty of players who could've taken it literally. And your post after Shos put it to L-1 certainly looked like you still supported a claimless hammer, so you can't use him not being at L-1 during your first post as a defence.

[Leafsnail]

So everyone has to answer questions about their play except you?

[Leafsnail]

Town bodyguard??

Hilarious, please explain your horrible lynch hopping yesterday.

Vote: shos

.

@projectmatt: You had someone down as scum yesterday. Why not vote them then? You provided some opinions which is better than your predecessor but you didn't say anything of substance on the guy who really mattered, Mr_Ree.

@absta101: Can we have an ETA on that "close"? I'd like you to give particular attention to GreyICE's terrible past play when it arrives.

[Leafsnail]

- Why you voted Dunham
- Why you unvoted Dunham and switched to Inte
- Why you revoted Dunham to L-1
- Why you then unvoted Benmage (a person you were not voting for) and switched to Mr_Ree for L-1
- Why you expressed surprise and regret that you put him to L-1 but didn't undo that action

Of all these the only one I can find any logic for is your Inte vote. You said Dunham was bad without any real reason but dropped him until he got to L-2, and didn't provide any reason for dropping that vote. You never provided anything on Mr_Ree except that he became scummier than a guy you weren't voting for, and you again slipped in that L-1 vote.

[Leafsnail]

@Leaf

- What do you mean "terrible" play?

Playing purely reactively.

@leaf: I know I wasn't all that hyperactive that I usually am, but since you ask so nicely I'll go over my ISO for you:
I voted Dunham for the first time in 217. as you can see from the next post that I made, this was not jumping on a wagon, since there were three other wagons with the same strength. I voted him because he was my strongest scumread, second to Inte. The only one except me who was voting Inte was dunham himself, so why keep my vote there.
Next I unvoted dunham for his spree of posts. it made me rethink about it, so I put my vote back on Inte. explanation on my inte read you can see in 298 and 302. But that lynch was not going to happen, hence revote dunham in 305.
Then 50 posts later I voted mr. ree for reasons that should be obvious; I kept confusing benmage and dunham in my mind this game, this is why I unvoted wrong. you can see that I also confused in 376, MoI pointed it out I think.
where did I express "regret" on putting him at L-1?? surprise yes, I said Ihad no idea this was L-1; but regret? where did you get that? I specifically said "This time however I will not unvote".

You say Dunham was your strongest scumread

without actually saying why

, is the issue. Your eagerness to deny a bandwagonning accusation I wasn't making is nice, though.

What "spree of posts" are you talking about? If this spree convinced you to stop voting Dunham I don't see why you'd go back afterwards.

And I guess there was reasoning for your Ree vote if you call jumping on an L-2 wagon with no original thought reasoning

We had several days before the deadline, I didn't say anything of "substance" about Mr Ree (although I actively didn't support his wagon) because like I stated I did not have a lot of time to read more in depth that day. By TOMORROW I meant tomorrow in real life time, not tomorrow in game time. I fully intended to put down a vote after I had a bit more time to read considering I might have seen something else that I would think is worse than what I saw while quickly reading.

That being said, expect

actual

content later today

Most of that's fair enough but if you say someone's scum there's no real reason not to vote them.

[Leafsnail]

Saying "I have reason to believe" implies that there exists a reason for you to believe

[Leafsnail]

You were voting Mr_Ree but for some reason felt the need to push the Dunham lynch, without actually switching votes to him.

[Leafsnail]

why implausible? O__o I've seen it happen like twice, and never saw a town bodyguard. if scum have a powerful role or something it then bodyguarding him to protect scum power is an option in a game with a vig; and it can also make the vig find a false trail and lead town into mislynching. why would a bodyguard be town??? it only prevents town from being able to NK analysis, and it can only be useful if the bodyguard actually knows who to protect, since unlike a doc, it doesn't save a kill, it just soaks it...

This is ridiculous babbling. Town bodyguards can either shield good players or power roles. There's no way you could miss that. You've already said it was a softclaim, why are you trying to go back on that now?

[Leafsnail]

Alright. I'm a vig. I've been sorta crumbing this in many places in a way, all the vigbait stuff etc etc. and as I said, there is no reason at all imo for a vig and a bodyguard to exist as town together; if there are two kills per night, the odds of the bodyguard dying N1 is 2/9 +2/11 which is about 40% so didn't think that was logical and shot dunham.

This is unbelievably stupid. How could you be this stupid. I refuse to believe you're this stupid.

I guess we can test your

SK

vigilante claim tonight though.

Unvote

. Kill a useless slot like FourTrouble or inte, tia.

I think Shos is real, by the way. Xisiqomelir's case is very misguided which makes me sad because I think that he is town.

PS:

Vote: FourTrouble

Do not quicklynch me.

the lowest hanging fruit does not mean that they are town. especially when what the "lowest hanging fruit" is amazingly scummy. but eh, benmage, trying to save your partner from a lynch today, huh?

I don't have a super strong read but what he's done is bad and the interactions with him are making me think he's a lurker his buddies are desperately trying to protect.

Unvote

for a sec, need to think

VOTE: projectmatt, L-1.

This series of actions make no sense. First you vote FourTrouble (not a terrible vote, but I can't see why he rose above Benmage in your scum ranking), then you defend your read as strong and correct when challenged by one person, but dilute it and drop it when another person goes challenges it. Why? If you didn't have a super strong read on FourTrouble why vote him over Benmage, who you apparently have a strong read on? Why were you prepared to admit your read was relatively weak to absta but not to Benmage? It looks like caving in to pressure to me. Combine this with your not voting for a guy you called scum yesterday and it looks like you're using your vote more as a survival tool than a scumhunting/lynching implement.

Plus you're the same alignment as Shadow Dancer

[Leafsnail]

The thing about bodyguards is you don't have to want them dead to kill them

[Leafsnail]

So I'm an SK and I shot someone and dunham was such an amazing Bg to predict precisely who I kill? stop with the conspiracy..

But wasn't there a 40% chance he'd block a kill earlier?

[Leafsnail]

I guess doublevoting explains your reluctance to vote earlier.

Unvote

.

Is there a reason why you're trying to lynch a nonplayer who's being replaced?

A pool is probably better than a single candidate in case scumteam has protective roles too. Fourtrouble definitely belongs in it, and you should VCA off inte's flip for the #2.

I don't like this because it gives an SK a carte blanche to shoot pretty much whoever he likes ("Huh, sorry, I thought Xis' early voting of inte was really suspicious!"). shos is only worth keeping alive if we can keep him to a pool of named people.

[Leafsnail]

You are correct, and shos also cannot be trusted to VCA correctly.

I'm thinking this is a good decision tree: "If inte flips scum, shoot Antihero or pmatt. If he flips town, Antihero or qwints".

Thoughts?

I like the general principle, but can Double Voter actually be a scum role? It's always been town when I've seen it before on places like #mafia. If it can be a scum role then I am fine with this decision tree.

I'm fine with being lynched as long as one of {FourTrouble, Absta, Benmage, Xis} take the bullet

inte this isn't really your decision to make. I've had trouble reading you up to now due to you not explaining your reasoning at all but there seems to be a strong air of "literally anyone but me" about your posts now that you're being threatened.

[Leafsnail]

am I the only one who doesn't see why antihero is being voted?

if anti is lynched pool is qwints/inte

You may be a serial killer but this is probably the most sensible post on the entire page. Benmage's attempt to quickhammer for the win seems to have vindicated you.

With a living vig, and scum never wanting spotlight.

You can mark me down as conftown now.

hmmm yes this is a good argument

VOTE: Benmage

(redirecters)

[Leafsnail]

inte, and actually Pjmatt. I was thinking about the plausibility of a scum double-voter, and then realized the last Philosophy Mafia had a freakin' scum daykiller.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3156775

There was a condition of having to lynch a buddy first but it would still break lylo. Pjmatt's role is nowhere near as powerful as that.

However, Benmage literally just tried to hammer and win so he's scum.

[Leafsnail]

I'm sorry... in what game is it ever winnable with a quickhammer D2?

The previous Philosophy Mafia (although scum decided to bus instead). This Philosophy Mafia.

Well it would be easy enough (tomorrow, since again its D2), if shos said his shot got redirected, to than look back at a statement like this and analyze it.

I'd rather analyse the possibilities while the game is still happening thanks

[Leafsnail]

Would you mind fixing that second quote Acosmist? Should be Benmage saying it.

[Leafsnail]

No, mafia could have made D3 mylo, but not have won.... lynching and nk-ing successfully D1/D2.

Day 2: 7 town, 3 mafia. 2 mafia players quickhammer a townie. We'll regard them as 100% outed.
Night 2: 6 town, 3 mafia. Mafia kills a townie.
Day 3: 5 town, 3 mafia. A mafia member is lynched.
Night 3: 5 town, 2 mafia. Mafia kills a townie.
Day 4: 4 town, 2 mafia. A townie is daykilled. A mafia member is lynched.
Night 4: 3 town, 1 mafia. Mafia kills a townie.
Day 5: 2 town, 1 mafia. A townie is daykilled. Mafia victory.

But back to this game. There's a vig, or other killing entity, so already different game, different mentality. SO how am I scum, going to quickhammer and not be nk'd?

redirector
bus driver

And if you're so concerned about the game ending today, how the hell does any logic in you jump to redirectors. You want to on the one hand be safe? And on the other hand defend your point with a rarely used role, redirector....

I have no idea what you're saying. I've explained why it's possible for a mafia quickhammer to win today (not sure why you're insisting redirectors are some kind of ultra-rare non-existent role, there was a relatively recent game with one and a bus driver: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=23350 ).

So what you need to explain is: why did you try to hammer Antihero with no explanation or claim request, if not to win as scum?

[Leafsnail]

Scum could daykill twice?!?!?!??!?!?!

Scum could daykill twice. Scum

did

daykill twice.

Read the posts 582-594 again.

Then ask yourself, why the person I "quickhammered" isn't voting me.

Then apologize.

*reads dumb posts with no helpful information*

Antihero was voting you at the time you made this post. Whether he's prepared to gloss over a scumclaim as "poor impulse control" is irrelevant to my point in any case.

[Leafsnail]

Can you at least comment on Benmage's quickhammer.

[Leafsnail]

Hint: the ???? is Benmage.

[Leafsnail]

They would do it to win instantly using a redirector or bus driver.

It really doesn't look like an angry hammer to me. There's no "fuck you" or anything with it, just the explanationless hammer of a mafia member who believes he is about to win.

[Leafsnail]

Hi. Hammer on Qwints.

"Hmm, I think this guy is scum because in one game there was a scum role with a somewhat powerful and yet different power." -Leafsnail.

You're not actually reading me but you are speculating into whether or not my role is scum - how on earth does my role being even possible for mafia translate into that player being mafia? Stop being paranoid and lynch the mafia.

I'm not saying you're scum, just that your role doesn't clear you. People clearing players for dumb reasons loses games.

There was plenty of "fuck you" to go around after I cross-voted him (and he still believed he had hammered)... >_>

Your argument still rests on the existance of exotic roles. Nah, I think it's more likely that the scum are among inte/qwints or both.

There was "fuck you" after you pointed out to him that he hadn't hammered and he needed to make up a justification. A genuine anger hammerer would surely give that fuck you out first.

I do not disagree with you about inte or qwintz, but 3 scum is the standard in a 12 player game and I'd rather lynch the scum claimer. And even if it relies on "exotic" (ie slightly uncommon) roles I cannot see a better explanation for Benmage's victoryhammer.

[Leafsnail]

Ah yeah, shos is virtually synonymous with sensibleness.

[Leafsnail]

Also he'd have to take into account the possibility of a role people keep telling me is rare.

[Leafsnail]

Case in point.

[Leafsnail]

People who can't understand sarcasm.

[Leafsnail]

So uh... why were you suggesting theories earlier that contradict your inspection result? Did you think that both shos

and

a mafia member could both evade your ability? Because as far as I can tell shos should've been way more clear after his claim to you than anyone else.

[Leafsnail]

EBWOP for clarity: Cleared of shooting someone other than Dunham at least, which is what you were suggesting.

[Leafsnail]

So shos, you think it's more likely that there was 1 shot at Dunhum and 1 shot at MoI than

2 shots at MoI

with a Dunham protect?

Post 523 and 541 are also implying the same thing as far as I can tell (either that or you're just saying there's a roleblocker in a weirdly accusatory and persistent way).

[Leafsnail]

If qwints is telling the truth the scenario that works best is clearly
- Mafia killed MoI with an untrackable kill
- Dunham was blocked (he was an outed protective role, not exactly hugely unlikely)
- Vig/ SK killed Dunham

But herein lies the problem with qwints' claim - he attacked shos for lying about his action even though he should've known better than anyone that he was likely telling the truth. In other words it seems like he made up his inspection result after the fact, and he's failed to provide adequate explanation for the contradiction here.

I still don't understand the shos = town vig scenario. (I also think that the benmage/dunham confusion is pretty weird. Looking back, he made the mistake both when he unvoted and when he was commenting on the bodyguard claim being unlikely).

Here's the thought process it would require:

Shos day 1: A town bodyguard can't exist in the same game as a vig. I should risk outing myself to get Dunham lynched! It's still possible that he's a scum bodyguard though.

Night 1: I have to shoot Dunham now! Even though 1) Dunham's promised to protect obv-town and MoI is an obvious target; and 2) Dunham-scum is likely to be lynched anyway if he survives to end game.

Day 2: Oh wow, I was wrong! I better tell people by saying "Town bodyguard??" rather than claiming the shot that is bound to bring me attention.

On the other hand, the plan to force shos to kill who we say or lynch him is worth pursuing for at least one night. If, which seems unlikely, he's town then the mafia can't let him live long. That's probably true as well for a SK. And scum-shos gets outed if another vig or 3rd party shows up.

I agree that Dunham would be a bad vigkill. On the other hand he'd be an even worse SK kill, and your inspection result should have eliminated the possibility that Dunham caught shos' attack somewhere else.

Leaf, note that I'm also talking about a scenario with Dunham protecting MoI in 466. The only result I received is that Dunham protected MoI and my play's been based on that.

Look at the whole of 466

So shos, you think it's more likely that there was 1 shot at Dunhum and 1 shot at MoI than 2 shots at MoI with a Dunham protect?

Would the former have resulted in both Dunham and MoI dead if

Dunham protected MoI

?

I've been operating under the belief that shos's claim is inconsistent with my result.

It's a scenario where Dunham is protecting MoI... and also two people are attacking MoI. Two people who somehow slipped past you. Would you really expect to see a game where your role is useless against both scum factions?

shos' claim is consistent with your result, and I don't get why you think otherwise. You already said you accept that Dunham was blocked and that a mafia member slipped past you, which means that under your logic someone must've attacked Dunham. Yet you gave a lot of shit to the guy who claimed exactly that.

[Leafsnail]

We have four claimed PRs. The two which are town or probable town are not overly strong (Bodyguard is a weaker doctor, double voter who can't hide his ability is a weaker double voter). One of them is looking relatively likely to be an SK, and vig isn't the best town PR anyway. The last one is qwints who is scum. Considering this I think it's pretty likely there's another town PR we'd be pointlessly outing in a massclaim when we could just lynch scum instead.

qwints is lying (why?)

because you are a member of the mafia

I would like everyone to ask themselves, "if qwints were scum, why would he claim those results now?"

...Because you were about to get your ass lynched otherwise. It was a decent "don't lynch me" claim apart from the fact it went against what you said earlier today.

PPE @677: Because that would contradict your earlier play even harder.

[Leafsnail]

shos: I do understand the benefits of a massclaim but I feel the downside of allowing all the power roles to get owned in the night outweighs them. I don't think mafia members would be very concerned about being locked into claims if they can neutralize whichever town PR they like.

qwints: You've mentioned info that you have, but also contradicted info that you supposedly had too by accusing shos of having attacked someone other than Dunham. Again that would require two ninjas which would be ridiculous. Your result doesn't clear shos but the manner in which you've attacked him makes no sense at all.

[Leafsnail]

Leaf, I never accused shos of attacking someone other than Dunham.

I pointed out the bit where you did?

And yeah, I do think Benmage is scum too, the distancing isn't going to work

[Leafsnail]

Ah right, and he'd slip up by contradicting both his claim and what actually happened?

[Leafsnail]

Benmage: concurrent enough to quickhammer and defend himself from accusations of quickhammering, not concurrent enough to do anything else

PBut like I've said, his response to that pressure has made me change my read to him being more likely town vig, with sk a possibility and scum basically impossible.

When did this change of heart occur?

ok and assuming we do hit scum then

Benmage, qwints, inte. Scum, scum and noise respectively. One of the first two really should be dead before the night comes.

[Leafsnail]

VOTE: qwints I guess Benmage isn't happening today. pjmatt please come back and explain why shos might be fake and vote qwints.

[Leafsnail]

You have the motivation of not getting lynched. The fact that you are able to use the result you claimed as an argument for not getting lynched is proof of that motive. What lie do you think would work better as a scum watcher? I can't think of any.

I'm not ignoring Benmage and his behaviour doesn't excuse yours.

[Leafsnail]

That wouldn't actually help you in any way, other than confirming you as scum if shos flipped town.

[Leafsnail]

So uh... why are you not voting me now then?

[Leafsnail]

...That was a hammer...

[Leafsnail]

Can you at least explain what 730 is meant to mean?

[Leafsnail]

Or have you won already

[Leafsnail]

But the idea that the scum could try and today is ridiculous, shos! The two attempts at it are obviously purely coincidental in spite of the fact that quickhammers should've been right at the front of pjmatt's mind considering he was talking about voting Benmage

[Leafsnail]

EBWOP: try and quickhammer today

[Leafsnail]

Because considering someone with 2 votes just quickhammered it's not like there's any chance of losing otherwise, right?

[Leafsnail]

Is that not a hammer?

[Leafsnail]

Yes, massclaim. I want to start with Benmage or inte.

[Leafsnail]

Huh? You think I'm suspicious enough to consider killing but not suspicious enough to claim first?

[Leafsnail]

do you realize your mistake here, that if I didn't notice would have possibly cost town the game?

No? I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[Leafsnail]

post 749, if my english gets me right, says that it's still ok to shoot, because we have a doublevoter and as such, in a 3v3 we can still lynch mafia (and then shoot mafia I guess) and still have a chance not to lose. but what if the doublevoter was nightkilled? so that would endgame immediately. so I thought that if he had posted that knowingly, then if I fell for it it'd endgame us immediately. "pretending" to make a mistake as townie when you're deliberately trying to make me shoot or something.

It was sarcastic, and pointing out that pjmatt could win with a 3 man scumteam on the next day even with no vig shot. It'd be too late to do anything about that scenario now anyway though so might as well discard it.

[Leafsnail]

Speaking of mafia members why isn't Benmage posting here? There are two dead people with significantly more recent posts than him.

And pjmatt too I guess but he's at least disappeared from the whole site.

[Leafsnail]

Vanilla town.

absta next.

[Leafsnail]

I want a claim from Antihero before going into details but after a reread it became really obvious that Benmage and inte are scum together. If there's a third scum absta seems most likely going by interactions with those guys.

[Leafsnail]

If you ISO Benmage and look for his mentions of inte you see bitching about his play but no comment at all on his alignment ever. I don't see how Benmage could notice inte's play without thinking "huh, maybe I should think about whether this guy is scum". I understand the hurricane left him out of the game day one but his day two contributions wereoften irrelevant and come off as pretty uninvolved.

If you ISO inte and look for his mentions of Benmage you see quite a lot of calling Benmage scum, not a lot of voting for him or pushing his lynch in any way. He calls for him to take a vigkill but doesn't follow up. Actually inte's day two play seems to be entirely based on attacking shos as an SK with little or no attempt made to find mafia members other than attacking a lurker and then backing off once that lurker is replaced.

So in other words there's weird artificial hatred going both ways that somehow never translates into actual attacks or arguments. Add the massive active-lurking going on from both and they're scum.

[Leafsnail]

VOTE: Benmage. I wanted at least some comment from Benmage before voting at probable lylo but he obviously isn't giving any other than "lynch anyone except me, preferably not inte".

? everyone thinks to think benmage is scum but nobody votes for him anyways

leaf you are obviously scum with benmage, then

VOTE: benmage

i don't think its acceptable to let a player be that much of a non object all game

i don't even remember any of benmages scum reads and if leaf is one of them, then it just confirms my theory

I voted for Benmage yesterday until it became clear he wasn't getting lynched, unlike you who only just did for some reason. Not going to stop you bussing though.

PPE: yeah inte's scum too

[Leafsnail]

rofl

you're killing me shos

Yeah that's true. Then an inte lynch tomorrow I think.

[Leafsnail]

IMO we should lynch Acosmist for disappearing at the worst possible time

[Leafsnail]

Agreed. Bottom fell out of activity after MoI died. No one was learning from past days.

Yeah, I tend to just kill the loudest obvtown player for this reason, even if they're not on the right track (in this case it also allowed me to get away with outrageous shit like talking my buddy down from L-1 and pressing for a mislynch against a town PR). I was expecting another town PR though, with our ninja qwints' only real potential use was catching me out.

[Leafsnail]

This is my first on-site win incidentally, hooray.

[Leafsnail]

It certainly wasn't helped by every town PR being forced to claim within the first 2 days.

[Leafsnail]

Also why didn't we nameclaim on the last day? I mean I was scum so I rolled with it but...

[Leafsnail]

To be fair it should be fairly unlikely for the watcher to watch the vigkill - it would require the vig's top scumpick and the watcher's top townpick to coincide.

[Leafsnail]

So 9 VTs and 3 goons. Not balanced? Ok then.

Yeah that wouldn't be balanced. I mean 11 VTs and 2 goons is the standard right?

[Leafsnail]

I'd be fine with having the mafia one posted. It's basically me talking to myself until my partners replaced in.

[Leafsnail]

I'm assuming I'm dead because I was actually on-track with something.

Not really, it was for a similar reason to MoI - kill an obvtown person who's capable of generating discussion. It helped that no-one was really on track though (other than dead people).

Leaf's town? that surprises me.

Surprises me too!

Well, my strategy did result in scum protecting watcher day 1. I still find my lynch hard to believe.

Your reasoning was a bit confused (the whole shos targetting someone else tangent didn't make much sense) so I decided to lynch you for it. With attempts to lynch inte and Benmage stalling, Xis looking unassailable, shos confirmed as vig and pjmatt confirmed double voter I was worried the lynches were going to start landing on us by process of elimination.