Mini 1430 - Pokémon uPick Mafia (Game Over!)

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
Damn guys, I am getting the feeling everyone is just following me and I will be wrong again.
We have a mass claim, we have 4 flips, can't there be more discussion?

I want everyone to talk about who they think the 3 scum are, and why, both individually and associatively, in their next posts.
We have only like 4 days left.

[Wisdom]

Yes, they can, it says so in post 2. Does that help you?

[Wisdom]

If we accept that both you and Glork are town, then the three scum are in {Limo, Seanald, Baby, serra}.
Which of these do you think is most likely town?

[Wisdom]

It's a possibility.
The more I read Glork's posts the more I think that they are not made by scum. As Limo said, if Glork is scum that's some awesome scum play.

[Wisdom]

What you said about Seanald makes sense.

Right now I think that it's Seanald, Baby and one more.

What if Hyperion was actually scum and claimed results on his two partners?

[Wisdom]

And I might be speculating but what if this:

Seanald is even night tracker

was Marangal mixing the claim of her own slot up with Seanald's (her scumbuddy's) while catching up?

[Wisdom]

Seanald is even night tracker so him not going anywhere makes sense for N1 I highly doubt he's scum

Spice indeed did not go anywhere N2, but that doesn't mean anything IMO so I'll leave her alone for now.

Also this; She highly doubts Seanald is scum because he went nowhere (as we said at the time this did not clear him from being scum at all), but for Baby not going anywhere she does realize that it means nothing. Yet despite that she wants to leave her alone.

It seems weird to me.

[Wisdom]

At the time I was thinking that maybe he was a 1-shot Tracker and he claimed so he could draw the NK since he was now useless.
Since he tracked on N2 too we know that was not the case.
AND scum left him alive.

[Wisdom]

But what's the town motivation in claiming such a null result (Seanald went nowhere) and risk getting killed because he outed?

[Wisdom]

VOTE: Seanald

[Wisdom]

Seanald/Marangal/Baby.

Thoughts?

[Wisdom]

Regardless, what do you think?

[Wisdom]

Glork, read what I said about Hyperion/Marangal. Don't write her off as town yet.

[Wisdom]

Does the fact that it was bad mean that it came from town?

[Wisdom]

He's at L-2.

[Wisdom]

Should we have him out what he did yesterday night before we hammer him?

[Wisdom]

Because of serra's observation, which makes a lot of sense and I hadn't thought of. And if Seanald is scum, I guess it makes you town.

[Wisdom]

man fuck me, just can't get better at this shit.

Hope this means scumclaim

[Wisdom]

Her role claim matches up with what happened at night so I'm inclined to believe that she is innocent.

Her role claim also came after Hyperion had outed the tracking result. So, you should not be.

[Wisdom]

Marangal and Baby are most likely the partners, but we'll talk about it tomorrow.

[Wisdom]

Huh.
Marangal (and Limo, if anything interesting), results?

VOTE: Baby

[Wisdom]

Blocked by what?

[Wisdom]

I have an idea of what happened but I want Marangal's result first.

[Wisdom]

I got nothing out of the ordinary. Fuzzy, are you implying that you did something last night?

Who did you track?

[Wisdom]

And? He went nowhere?

[Wisdom]

Okay.
Why did you track fuzzy?

[Wisdom]

Right.
So what are your reads right now?

[Wisdom]

serra you might want to explain that vote.

[Wisdom]

Leaning scum in you, Serra, and Limo

Okay.
Seeing as there are 2 scum left, you should know that at least one of those is wrong.
Are you going to try and find out who that is?

[Wisdom]

Also, why are you leaning town on Spice?

[Wisdom]

or they chose not to kill at all (for some reason?).

What I was thinking (with Baby and Marangal being the scum in mind) was that scum no-killed so that we would think scum shot Baby (who commuted), then Marangal would say that she tracked someone visiting Baby.
The last part of it did not come true, but the first part is most likely true, because if we assume that Baby is town, what scum would target Baby given that 1) she's the only one who can escape the NK somehow and 2) she's the top suspect and most likely lynch today?

[Wisdom]

I also have Spice as leaning town because her posts strike me as genuine.

Which posts exactly?

[Wisdom]

In that case, why give the town a free lynch? Even if it fools is temporarily, we get an extra chance to figure Baby out.

True that. Well, I don't have a clue, but I certainly cannot see any reason at all to shoot Baby, of all people.
Unless... Baby is not scum and the actual scum no-killed exactly so we would think Baby is scum for this reason.
Then again that wouldn't be necessary as she would be the most likely lynch anyway and they could have killed one more person.

[Wisdom]

So, all roles as we know them:

TehBrawlGuy - 2x Roleblocker
Lord Mhork - Bodyguard
Mac - Odd Night JOAT (1x Follower, ?, ?)
nopointinactingup - Self-Voyeur

Seanald - Even Night JOAT (1x Watcher, 1x Roleblocker, 1x Redirect)

Hyperion(Marangal) - Tracker
fuzzy - Vengeful
Baby Spice - xShot Commuter
Wisdom - 1shot Ability Cop
AJ - Messenger
Glork - 1shot Neighborizer
serra - Ascetic Townie
Limo - Non consecutive Watcher

[Wisdom]

I really don't think that Baby is the right choice, it doesn't feel right. What really bothers me is that this conclusion was made before the majority of the posters could even see the start of today. I would much rather wait to see what others have to say, and I would advocate Limo or Serra before I advocated the Spice wagon.

Care to explain why serra or why Limo is scum then?

[Wisdom]

Yup, I've used it.

[Wisdom]

Did we ever establish whether Aj is xshot?

I was thinking about this right now actually.
No, we didn't.

[Wisdom]

Who'd you use it on again?

On Limo.

[Wisdom]

I don't think so. What does messenger do again?

Send a message at night.
He sent me a message on N1.

[Wisdom]

To softclaim on my third post the next day, which I didn't.
We've talked about this already.

[Wisdom]

So fuzzy, who do you think is scum now?

[Wisdom]

Right. Leaning anywhere?

[Wisdom]

Do you think Baby/Serra, or do you see someone else as either one's partner?

[Wisdom]

Pedit: well, yeah but it could be the fact that the killer was blocked or the target was protected...

There's no role who can do such thing alive.
I posted the claims list one page ago or so.

[Wisdom]

Baby's better today, Limo.

[Wisdom]

there's no way scum tried to kill Baby

or me

.

Why not you?

[Wisdom]

What are the things that you couldn't see coming from a town perspective?

[Wisdom]

kay, that's even better, vote stays

[Wisdom]

kay, that's even better, vote stays

No, that's not better.

Unvote

Explain.

[Wisdom]

I think that's a stretch, Glork; a traitor is not a standard role and I don't really see it included here.

[Wisdom]

Either scum(that don't include Baby) wanted to implicate Baby further (which I don't see as likely given the fact she was already the most likely lynch today so they didn't have to no-kill for that), or scum (who include Baby) wanted to try and clear Baby in hopes that we will buy she was shot and commuted, which didn't work so Baby claimed she didn't commute to confuse us further.
Obvious which of the two I think it is.

[Wisdom]

The fact that there was a kill might have cleared him as he didn't do anything last night, however there wasn't one

Even if there was a kill he wouldn't be cleared as there are two scum alive. You used the same argument about Seanald and Baby, and it's completely wrong.

[Wisdom]

lol


Good ol' Wisdom.

It's basically the scenarios you brought up, with the traitor one removed, so I don't get the laughter.

[Wisdom]

Blah, okay, even if I accept that there might be a traitor (which I really don't consider a possibility but whatever), who do we lynch?

[Wisdom]

Activity sucks.
No idea why we're not lynching Baby, but sure we can do Marangal first.

VOTE: Marangal
L-1.

[Wisdom]

I thought you suspected serra and Limo, but interestingly you put serra last and you don't include Limo at all.

Okay.

Hammer this.

[Wisdom]

1501 looks like she was town after all, which doesn't really look good.

[Wisdom]

I have never seen one, but then I haven't played so many games. The wiki mentions it's not a standard role.
But anyway I find it far more likely that scum wifom'd in one way or another than a traitor being present.

Also

@Mod

I sent a PM too; I will be able to post some, so I guess I can stay.

[Wisdom]

Shouldn't we no-lynch since we're in mylo?

[Wisdom]

Yeah I was thinking no-lynch then lynch fuzzy in lylo for that reason. Scum lynch if he's scum, second chance if he's town.

[Wisdom]

This'll only work if it's 2-1 LyLo though. If it's 3-2, fuzzy's lynch takes us to 2-2. Even if he gets scum, after the nightkill we'll be at 1-1, so scum wins.

Uh true that.
Now that it's 4-2?

[Wisdom]

Well with AJ and Marangal both town, Glork definitely re-enters the scumpool in my book too.

[Wisdom]

Well we're at 4-2 now.
We either
a) no-lynch and go to 3-2 lylo tomorrow
b) lynch fuzzy and go to 3-1 if he's scum or 3-1 if he's town and shoots scum, both of which result in 2-1 lylo tomorrow. Or lose if he shoots town.

[Wisdom]

Correction: Actually if he's scum we get to 3-1 tomorrow, not 2-1.

[Wisdom]

-- Why would I kill AJ last night instead of Wisdom or Limo or Baby or you or Fuzzy?

Because leaving those pairings that you've made aside, AJ was the least scummy person and he wasn't likely to be lynched. There's no guarantee that the two messenging roles are town-scum or town-town, so I don't think that the AJ flip implicates you. Therefore yes, you could simply kill AJ for being the least scummy, no WIFOM involved, no implicating yourself involved.

[Wisdom]

That won't work anyway, serra explained why.
I said what our choices are in 1529; no-lynch or lynch fuzzy.

[Wisdom]

@fuzzy
Well if you venge-kill wrong it's over.
I'm generally of the belief that you should not rely too much on us on who to venge-kill in that case, since scum will try to make you venge-kill town. Trust your own reads.

[Wisdom]

Or, we lynch away from those with night actions, peg scum, and end up with better odds tomorrow.

Umm, it's mylo right now, we won't lynch anyone (unless we lynch you for reasons already stated).

[Wisdom]

No lynching today solves nothing. :/

No-lynching today makes the current 4-2 mylo into 3-2 lylo.

[Wisdom]

I don't think he does, as I've played another game with him that we were in 3-1 mylo and he wanted to no-lynch.

[Wisdom]

fuzzy's right, "why I would/wouldnt do this/that as scum" is always WIFOM as it could be done for towncred.

[Wisdom]

That's a lie actually, I did suspect Marangal at the end of the day/twilight right before the no-kill.

[Wisdom]

Welcome

[Wisdom]

Yup, either that or we lynch a guy who claimed vengeful.

[Wisdom]

fuzzy are you even thinking before posting?

@Glork mbf is prolly town

[Wisdom]

I think it's Baby and Glork, fuzzy if one of them is wrong.
I do want to lynch fuzzy today but fuzzy should not be hasty about vengekilling if he's town.

[Wisdom]

The alternative is to do it in 2-1 lylo but scum won't do us the favor to keep him around until then.

[Wisdom]

Do you think they'd kill you over fuzzy?

[Wisdom]

I think you're vastly overestimating the chance of fuzzy-scum. He really isn't the sort of guy to fake soft-claim early D1, so I would be pretty surprised if he flipped scum.

That doesn't mean that it's impossible.

[Wisdom]

Yes.

If we No Lynch and go into LyLo, Fuzzy's ability is worthless. It's a simple numbers game. I explained it to Glork 10 posts ago.

Yeah I was thinking that it's useful in 2-1 lylo, but I guess they can kill him the night before that.
So you're right, they'll most likely kill you if we no-lynch, then kill fuzzy afterwards if we lynch scum.

[Wisdom]

Well I say we all list our top two scumreads, then let fuzzy decide.
Gave mine already.

[Wisdom]

Two

[Wisdom]

Why's that?

[Wisdom]

Not getting your point, but if you believe Limo was scum then you probably also believe that Limo was fake-claiming, as I cannot see two scum Watchers existing.

[Wisdom]

Sorry Wisdom. Two scum watchers?

Seanald claimed he had watch as part of his Joat and Limo claimed he's a watcher.
There's no way both are scum and both have watch. Either Limo is town or one of them lied about having watch/being watcher.

[Wisdom]

Just for whoever forgot:

So, all roles as we know them:

TehBrawlGuy - 2x Roleblocker
Lord Mhork - Bodyguard
Mac - Odd Night JOAT (1x Follower, ?, ?)
nopointinactingup - Self-Voyeur

Seanald - Even Night JOAT (1x Watcher, 1x Roleblocker, 1x Redirect)

Hyperion(Marangal) - Tracker
AJ - Messenger

fuzzy - Vengeful
Baby Spice - 1x Commuter
Wisdom - 1x Ability Cop
Glork - 1x Neighborizer
serra - Ascetic
Limo(mikeburnfire) - Non consecutive Watcher

[Wisdom]

I also remind you that one reason we lynched Seanald was because town could not have two roleblockers (TehBrawlGuy being the other), so this is what I am applying here; scum can't have two watchers.
So unless Limo fake-claimed Watcher for this purpose, Limo is town.

[Wisdom]

I don't think Limo, who is cautious about claiming, would just claim without checking what his scumbuddy claimed.

[Wisdom]

Then again, doing it on purpose does not hold much water either; Limo was at L-1 when he claimed, so he would likely get lynched. If he flipped something that wasn't Watcher, that wouldn't clear Seanald at all.
So no, I think it was legit.

[Wisdom]

The other possibility is that Seanald lied about having Watcher as part of his Joat, but I don't find that so likely.

[Wisdom]

But that leads right back to you pointing out how careful Limo is anyway.

Not sure what this means?

[Wisdom]

No, what I'm saying is;
One of these is true:
1) Seanald told the truth about having watcher and Limo told the truth about being watcher => Seanald was scum, so Limo is town.
2) Seanald told the truth about having watcher and Limo-scum lied about being watcher => Limo is scum who fakeclaimed watcher. This happened because:
..2a) Limo forgot about Seanald having watcher (Unlikely because of Limo being careful with claims)
..2b) Limo did it on purpose to clear himself when Seanald flipped (Unlikely since it was Limo at L-1 at the time, not Seanald)
3) Seanald lied about having watcher and Limo-town told the truth about being watcher.
4) Seanald lied about having watcher and Limo-scum told the truth about being watcher; Seanald did this on purpose to clear Limo when he(Seanald) would flip scum.


So the possibilities I am seeing is either Limo is town (1 or 3) or 4 happened (Seanald gambitted to clear Limo later). I'm inclined to believe that Limo is just town.

[Wisdom]

You said the same about Serra and mike...
Do you have any reasons?

[Wisdom]

I think Serra is scum, tbh.

I think Mike is one of them.

I'm thinking Baby is scum, as well as Glork, tbh. If I'm lynched, I'm shooting one of them.

I am thinking that you basically have no idea who is scum

[Wisdom]

So does that mean that we all agree that Baby should be shot?

[Wisdom]

I'll follow suit. Don't worry.

So do you currently think it's Baby and Glork?

[Wisdom]

And you don't think it's serra or mike anymore?
Why?

[Wisdom]

Sigh

[Wisdom]

I'm almost starting to think that fuzzy wants to make us decide against lynching him

[Wisdom]

Reading the game helps, fuzzy

[Wisdom]

Just go read.

[Wisdom]

I did read. Now answer the goddamn question.

1634

[Wisdom]

no..?

[Wisdom]

We know there was a Tracker, a Follower (in a JOAT) and a Self-Voyeur on the town side.
You're thinking that there can't be a Watcher too, is that it?

[Wisdom]

Well my role can't really compare to those.

[Wisdom]

Fair enough; so you're thinking that there are too many investigative roles and Limo's claim is fake because of that?

[Wisdom]

Actually you still don't understand that lynching anyone other than you is not an option today.

[Wisdom]

Yeah, you've found scum five times today.

[Wisdom]

I still get the impression that you have no clue who is scum and you're just testing me.

[Wisdom]

Glork, I remember you also made the argument about too many investigating roles being on the town side; do you agree with fuzzy that Limo might have fake-claimed?

[Wisdom]

I've been saying that literally all day.

I don't remember you pushing Limo or mike at all after Seanald's flip though.
The point is valid, there is indeed too much investigative town power.

[Wisdom]

Yeah, see my EBWOP: I'm distracted and just quoted your post after reading the first phrase.

Yeah so again, you're thinking there are too many investigative roles, why didn't you push Limo/mike at all after Seanald's flip?

[Wisdom]

serra, who would you want fuzzy to shoot if we lynched him now?

[Wisdom]

I just forgot to mention it.

[Wisdom]

Right.
I'm entertaining the serra-scum possibility now.
He was talking about how Glork might be scum, yet he now tries to support that I am scum, right after others mentioned they support the idea and the whole claim thing got brought up again.
I am starting to think that Baby-serra might be viable after all.

[Wisdom]

If you're wrong we'll simply lose.
Do you have any clue who is scum now or are you still lost?

[Wisdom]

I think we all agree on Baby getting venge-killed.

[Wisdom]

That's the dumbest thing you can do.

[Wisdom]

Well
VOTE: fuzzy

I fear that fuzzy will mess up, but just the possibility of him being scum doing all this so we don't lynch him is enough to keep my opinion that he should be lynched.

[Wisdom]

Nope, you need one more.

[Wisdom]

Well that will lose us the game, just so you know.

[Wisdom]

Yeah I seriously hope that the "I'll shoot Wisdom" thing is just a reaction test because he has no idea who is scum and hopes to gain something out of that, or, in case he is scum, he's trying to scare me so that I'll change my mind about lynching him.

[Wisdom]

So you were town?

[Wisdom]

I'd probably go for Wisdom.

I think you showed your true colors here, serra.
Trying to get fuzzy to shoot me, not realizing that fuzzy's "I am shooting Wisdom" was just a reaction test, both to me and everyone else.
Accusing Glork yesterday forgetting completely about Baby, Baby who you were accusing the whole game, then changing to me when you saw interest from fuzzy and when the claiming thing got brought up again.
Back then you had said that despite not liking the way I claimed, my play had been consistently town and you had concluded that I am town. Yet now you wanted me shot over people like Baby.

Then there's the existence of the Ninja; it makes sense now, you wanted the trackers off you and on Baby so she can be cleared, while you could use whatever ability you have. Because obviously you're not Ascetic. There's not an Ascetic and a Ninja.

Intent to vote serra. I don't see myself changing my opinion about this.

[Wisdom]

VOTE: serra

Except they wouldn't risk "wasting" their track on you.

I said I'd go for Wisdom because I truly believe you're scum. Your claim doesn't fit with the rest of the game. You "forgot" to mention 1-shot, and only mentioned it when I asked about confirming your role.
aim doesn't fit with the rest of the game. You "forgot" to mention 1-shot, and only mentioned it when I asked about confirming your role.

Actually this is wrong. You said that I wouldn't be able to confirm my role because everyone had claimed their abilities. And I said that I wouldn't be able to confirm it anyway because it is 1-shot. If I was scum I wouldn't have any reason to add that as I could not confirm my ability since everyone had claimed theirs already. I added it because I truly forgot.

But what's more important is that at the time you thought that despite that, my play in the whole game had been town and that didn't suddenly make me scum. Yet now it does, and not only that, you vote me quickly without thinking that it might be Glork, despite your big doubts about him yesterday (that also came from nowhere).

[Wisdom]

Okay so there was one person who hadn't claimed it yet? Well, Extremespeed would be easy to guess since none of Arcanine's other moves made sense with Tracker (except Odor Sleuth but Oversoul's apparently using only Gen1 and Gen2 moves), and Extremespeed is like Arcanine's signature move in Gen2.

Point remains anyway. I didn't care about being confirmed, I forgot to mention it, I added it after the confirmation talk reminded me that I wouldn't be able to confirm it anyway.

[Wisdom]

But wanting EVERYONE to claim abilities destroys any chance of confirming your role. Which is bullshit.

And by talking of confirmation I mean this. You mentioned that I am destroying the chances of confirming my role and I remembered that I forgot to mention that it's 1-shot and thus can't be confirmed.

[Wisdom]

Seriously, if I did not intend to claim it 1-shot at the time I posted 1157, why the hell would I say that I used it only on N2? Why wouldn't I use it on N1 if it wasn't 1-shot?

[Wisdom]

But it's funny that you're concentrating so heavily on the claim because that's the only thing you are able to accuse me about.

[Wisdom]

Meanwhile, the only thing that made me think you are town was you bringing up the role overlap that made Seanald scum in 1322.
However, it had to wait until

after

I unvoted Limo, stopping his potential lynch. It was as good a bussing chance as any.
Not only that, but you completely nullified it by mentioning it yourself in 1437 as a reason why you're not scum.

[Wisdom]

Not to mention, accusations were starting to fall on Baby Spice and you'd rather Seanald die than the Ninja flipping and exposing you.

[Wisdom]

Using it only on N2 means I didn't use it on N1. Thus I had in mind that it's 1-shot. Otherwise why wouldn't I have used it on N1? So it's evident that I didn't come up with the 1-shot thingy afterwards.

It negates it because it confirms that you did it for the town-cred since you're asking to be read as town because of it. But as I explained, it isn't even a town-tell.

You would want Seanald to die over Baby. This is why you mentioned it

after

I unvoted Limo.

[Wisdom]

Wow.
God-tier scum play indeed.
Gz Glork.

[Wisdom]

I enjoyed the game, Oversoul. Looking forward to gen2

[Wisdom]

See for example my ability which sucked :p

[Wisdom]

Sorry for that lynch, Mac :/
When you think that I saved two scum from L-1 wagons to lynch you it gets worse :p

[Wisdom]

My only consolation is that I never fully trusted you. Tell me, when you were telling Fuzzy to 'vig' Seanald Day 1... you suspected that he wasn't a vigilante, didn't you?

If you read the mafia QT.. nope. It was a bluff and they hoped he wasn't actually a vig.

Also, Wisdom, good job bringing down Seanald. Your effort in his lynch nigh-completely cleared you as townie, in my eyes.

It was more the observation of serra that town doesn't have two roleblockers that did it.. Otherwise I had more or less believed Seanald's claim was legit and was eager to lynch Limo.

What's ironic is that Mac had a 1-shot Tracker in his JOAT that we never learned about - by the same logic Marangal and Mac couldn't both be town; yet they were.

[Wisdom]

I also only used Gen 1 moves

Gen 1 and Gen 2 actually. Magnitude, Extremespeed, Mean Look, Endure, Twister, Safeguard and Future Sight are Gen2 moves.
Ability cop thinks you should be arrested.

edit: oops didnt mean to edit sorry

[Wisdom]

I will say that generally trying to make flavor connections in a game where flavor really isn't that important is a bad idea and just a waste of time that allows for mafia players to blend in

Impossible when you give a flavor related role to the most active player

[Wisdom]

Use bulbapedia in the future, better than serebii

[Wisdom]

And I didn't talk much because I was constantly paranoid about Glork's alignment.
But saying that Hyperion is likely 1-shot was on purpose so they would leave him alone in case he's scum, and I see that worked at least.

[Wisdom]

Yeh I hoped for an evolution too but alas