Mini 1536 - Silph Co. Reverse Mafia (Game Over)

[Bulbazak]

Vote IH

<3

[Bulbazak]

Psyche, why aren't you voting?

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

Vote Empking

Most likely scum on the wagon.

[Bulbazak]

Also im confirmed town. So that is nice.

this isn't obvious, so I have to wonder why say this so soon

This is the only thing that looks scummy so far, "I have to wonder" is too passive of an attack.

vote: Psyche

Why Psyche when Empking essentially did the same thing?

Unvote

Vote Empking

Most likely scum on the wagon.

1. Why?

Mainly for the fishing and the fact that you sheeped RBD rather quickly while simultaneously questioning his conf. townness.

2. Why didn't you place your vote when I placed my vote?

I wanted to see what happened. Plus, I was more interested in engaging with Psyche.

Psyche, why aren't you voting?

What is the purpose of this question?

To determine motivation.

[Bulbazak]

Empking was asking if RBD is literally conf-town or not.
Psych was implying the post was suspicious.

Empking's question was a stupid one. Both posts were essentially doing the same thing.

[Bulbazak]

That's a pretty strong OMGUS, Emp, and not at all a natural reaction.

[Bulbazak]

Empking was asking if RBD is literally conf-town or not.
Psych was implying the post was suspicious.

except i wasn't

What were you implying?

P-edit: Keep it up Emp. All I hear is scum angry at being caught so early.

[Bulbazak]

im confused

You said you weren't implying that the post was suspicious. What were you implying?

[Bulbazak]

You're not leaving a stone unturned in your quest to spout rubbish are you?

If what I'm saying is rubbish, why aren't you interacting with me on said issues instead of seeking to discredit me?

Also, 33 should read 'voting me does not keep you from

engaging

Psyche'.

I never said it did. In fact, I've been engaging with Psyche in the meantime.

Yes the question was weak. I don't see how he was calling RBD scummy with it though. Sometimes players are confirmed from the get-go and he was double-checking if that was the case.
Maybe there is an argument that Empking was asking a question just for the sake of asking. Other than that, meh.
Psych on the other hand, stated that the post was weird and then backed out of it when it did'nt catch on.

I felt that both posts stemmed from the same reasoning. RBD's statement is the typical level of RVS BS I'd expect. Players will make statements like that all the time. That doesn't necessarily mean there's anything to them, something that Psyche and Empking should know. Each took a different tactic in regards to that statement, but they both stem from the larger issue that they commented on a non-statement and tried to fish based off of it. Emp took a more direct approach, and Psych went with the suspicious route. At least 1 of them is likely to be scum. Looking at that, why single Psyche out, yet leave Empking be?

To maxous and bulba, I don't think the question was stupid or weak, I was about to ask it myself but then two others had asked it. I don't think it's weird that we have an IC, so why is it a dumb question?

Statements like RBD's are made in RVS all the time. Most town players simply ignore it. However, sometimes scum try to get a leg up on the setup and figure out what we have early. The first step to that is figuring out if that statement actually means anything, i.e. PR hunting.

Also im confirmed town. So that is nice.

this isn't obvious, so I have to wonder why say this so soon

You say this statement isn't implying suspicion. So the question remains: What was the point of this statement?

[Bulbazak]

I didn't like how quickly that wagon had built. Yours was the most suspicious vote on it. I didn't vote you immediately after you made that vote, because I was more interested in where my conversation with Psyche was going.

[Bulbazak]

Each took a different tactic in regards to that statement, but they both stem from the larger issue that they commented on a non-statement and tried to fish based off of it. Emp took a more direct approach, and Psych went with the suspicious route.

At least 1 of them is likely to be scum.

Looking at that, why single Psyche out, yet leave Empking be?

Why? Seems like forcing a dilemma here.

Experience/Gut. It's the same concept as saying there's not likely to be X amount of scum on a certain wagon.

You say this statement isn't implying suspicion. So the question remains: What was the point of this statement?

nearly the same as #55

You still didn't address what that point was.

[Bulbazak]

Psyche, answer the question!

[Bulbazak]

Actually, I don't like Bulb's reactions at all. What does he mean "natural reaction"? That sounds like empty buzzword talk to me. And he is, as above, wrong about Empking and Psyche saying the same things.

I'm saying Empking's reaction to my vote is uncharacteristic of his play. He completely overreacted and got really defensive over some simple pressure, which culminated in an OMGUS. Keep in mind, Empking is generally a more laid back player. So why does he freak out all of a sudden? Hence, it's an unnatural reaction.

Why does Empking and Psyche talking about the same thing in different ways mean that one is scum?

They essentially commented on the night action, only in this case, we weren't dealing with a night action but a conf. town claim that anybody with a modicum of experience would know was early game BS.

I wanted to avoid giving null reads.

Why?

@Bulb - Why is scum more likely to fish like Emp/Psych did than town are? When you say "its town to not do anything" right after you did and then start saying "all who didn't do what I did" are scummy that one rubs me the wrong way. I think im actually MORE prone to go out of my way to do the "Town" thing after something like that happens, especially if somepony else has already pressed the issue because its the "Town" thing to do. Your logic just seems based on a core WIFOM concept when confused town could be just as likely to do the same thing. Yes I made a few notes on the ones who pushed the issue, but that's about it really.

I'm looking at what they did as similar to commenting on the NK, or something else that is fairly obvious. Both players are not new to this game. They each have at least a year and a half of experience, which means they've seen that type of comment before and know it means nothing. The fact that they both said something means that they were concerned about something in particular. As scum, that would be trying to look townie incredibly early. Is it a rock solid tell? No. But it is something to start with and see where it goes. And in this case, Empking, a generally stoic player, has completely flipped out over a single bit of pressure. Feels like scum freaking out over being caught over something so stupid to me.

The more you try to defend this vote on me, the worse it looks. Maybe we should string you up instead of Bulb. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a scumteam of you, Zekrom, and Kenobi.

Yes, threaten him. Because that's the way to earn town points.

@Maxous: I think you're wrong. I think scum Pasch would absolutely take solid stances on either side, instead of expressing a null, which means that he doesn't know. After all, it's more about appearing to have reads, rather than actually having them.

[Bulbazak]

I'm looking at what they did as similar to commenting on the NK, or something else that is fairly obvious.

How are those two things similar?

I just see it as commenting on something that is obvious or doesn't need addressing, mainly to seem town. Maybe that's just the impression I got. Regardless, I felt it was good enough to pressure on, and I didn't like Emp's reaction.

As for Ken, I'm not sure whether his posts are indicative of being scum or just being new.

[Bulbazak]

Yeah, the reason kinda was arbitrary, but I'm not going to say so while I'm pressuring for that reason. I liked Psyche's response. It felt town. Emp's, however, did not.

[Bulbazak]

apropos apropos nothing: Bulbazak, is your dp Artemis Fowl?

My avatar is Artemis Fowl. Is that what you meant?

I'm saying Empking's reaction to my vote is uncharacteristic of his play. He completely overreacted and got really defensive over some simple pressure, which culminated in an OMGUS. Keep in mind, Empking is generally a more laid back player. So why does he freak out all of a sudden? Hence, it's an unnatural reaction.

So really it's a weak ass meta argument, and all you're saying is that it's different. Now explain why different means scum.

Empking freaked out over my single vote and got really defensive. This is uncharacteristic of him and undeserving of the amount of pressure on him. The reaction feels like scum got caught for the wrong reasons.

Why does Empking and Psyche talking about the same thing in different ways mean that one is scum?

They essentially commented on the night action, only in this case, we weren't dealing with a night action but a conf. town claim that anybody with a modicum of experience would know was early game BS.

And that means one is town and one is scum... why?

I didn't say that. I said it was likely that at least 1 of them were scum. That's why I pressured them for reactions. As for why, it's what my experience with the game has taught me to expect.

I wanted to avoid giving null reads.

Why?

Because I thought it would be more useful. Since we're still so early, no reads are likely to be super strong, but every leans one way or the other. Truly neutral reads only come later on when there's just a lot of good and a lot of bad from a person and you're not sure which way it tilts. It's much easier to avoid that early on.

Either way, what about that is scum motivated or problematic?

It shows a level of self-consciousness that is not indicative of town. You are essentially avoiding giving null reads because you think you'll look bad, which is not a town mindset, since town wouldn't care how they looked when they give their honest reads. It also means that your reads are fake.

I'm not trying to earn town points. I'm trying to find scum. And it looks like I'm succeeding so far.

Bull crap. Your scum reads are based on bad reasoning, and you know it.

I think scum Pasch would absolutely take solid stances on either side, instead of expressing a null, which means that he doesn't know. After all, it's more about appearing to have reads, rather than actually having them.

That's an awfully unsubstantiated assumption you're making there, Bulb.

You have already shown an uncanny sense of self-awareness, which is indicative of scum. I don't think I'm off here at all.

If this is their first game, tough on them. They should be in Newbie games instead. Tell me, why do you think new players can't roll scum? They'll look like newb scum then, rather than newb town. Your newb scum scumbuddies look like newb scum.

You're ignoring what could be newb tells in favor of cheap lynches, and furthermore, you know it.

[Bulbazak]

You have already shown an uncanny sense of self-awareness, which is indicative of scum. I don't think I'm off here at all.

Or, you know, I'm just a persuasive speaker and not oblivious to how I sound. I think a better question than why am I like that is why aren't you?

The crap kind of answer is this?

Okay finally I got some net time on my comp.

Acknowledging that my point on Empking was weak, since he was trying, as Pasch said, to echo the phrasing used by Bulb.

Kenobi sidelining and not bothering to scumhunt is lame, only bothering to make a post with content after he is attacked.

Zekrom25, can you answer your questions about the vote on pasch? And I’m slow, how was his post a bait?

VOTE: Kenobi
If you’re town, step it up. If you’re scum, I request nothing of you.

Okay, I'm confused. Do you think that Ken is scum or not? Because your language doesn't seem to indicate that.

[Bulbazak]

Why? Seems like forcing a dilemma here.

Experience/Gut.

Dude, I'm totally gonna lynch you.

You don't like experience or gut?

They each have at least a year and a half of experience, which means they've seen that type of comment before and know it means nothing.

I have not seen that type of comment before.

Am I the only one who's seen people just randomly call themselves conf. town in RVS?

There was a thing with, Empking and, who, Bulbazak? And someone else? About "why are you confirmed town" and how one was scummier than the other. I didn't really see either one of the posts as scummy, and I thought Bulba was reading way too much into it. Ultimately, he started a fight just to start a fight.
And as I type that out, I'm thinking, "what the hell is actually so bad about that?" It's Day 1, after all. Big Stupid Argument jumpstarts the game. And Scum, as a principle, don't want to draw attention to themselves, so why start a fight?

Yeah, but did you notice the difference in reactions? Psyche essentially shrugged me off, which I took to be a town reaction. Empking, however, got extremely defensive and unnecessarily OMGUS'd me. Coming from a generally passive player, that's not a town reaction.

[Bulbazak]

With that in mind, I didn't see a big reaction from Emp.

Yeah, you're definitely not following super well:

Unvote,
Vote: Bulb

I think he's forcing it, and is wrong about everything.

Unvote
Vote:Bulb

I think it is a natural reaction. You are wrong about everything, thus it is natural to point that out and to vote you for it. My post is not similar to Psyche's, describing wagon producing RVS as 'sleeping' is rubbish, asking whether the mod posted something is not fishing, voting me does not keep you from voting psyche, and my above post is completely a natural reaction.

P-edit: Keep it up Emp. All I hear is scum angry at being caught so early.

You're not leaving a stone unturned in your quest to spout rubbish are you?

(Also, 33 should read 'voting me does not keep you from

engaging

Psyche'.

If you were paying attention to the full back and forth, you'd also notice that Emp failed to address any of my concerns and just jumped to discrediting my argument.

Yeah, but did you notice the difference in reactions? Psyche essentially shrugged me off, which I took to be a town reaction. Empking, however, got extremely defensive and unnecessarily OMGUS'd me. Coming from a generally passive player, that's not a town reaction.

have you seen/played against empking-scum before?

Yes. I've played with him as both alignments.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, how about you stop just fighting with people and push your own argument?

I thought I was. What part of "Empking is scum!" didn't you get?

[Bulbazak]

He was wrong about everything he'd said, and he's utterly wrong with his 'refusing to address my concerns' comment, since I addressed those concerns you saw in post 33.

You mean this post?:

Unvote
Vote:Bulb

I think it is a natural reaction. You are wrong about everything, thus it is natural to point that out and to vote you for it. My post is not similar to Psyche's, describing wagon producing RVS as 'sleeping' is rubbish, asking whether the mod posted something is not fishing, voting me does not keep you from voting psyche, and my above post is completely a natural reaction.

Yeah, you're not addressing the case as much as you're OMGUSing, getting super defensive, and trying to discredit it.

Bulba, how about you stop just fighting with people and push your own argument?

I thought I was. What part of "Empking is scum!" didn't you get?

All of it. I didn't see your comments about him as different from just the other arguing. Can you state your case in a collected and concise manner?

I pressure Empking based on his reaction to RBD's conf. town statement. Empking freaks out, OMGUS's, and gets super defensive. This is abnormal for Empking. Seeing as this is an abnormal response to minimal pressure with weak reasoning, being more akin to the "scum getting caught for the wrong reasons" reaction, Empking is scum.

It might be a good thing that Bulba is picking fights. He was doing that in the game I just finished with him and he was town. I guess it's just part of his playstyle.

You'd be surprised how the right fights can get you the information you need.

[Bulbazak]

Yeah, you're not addressing the case as much as you're OMGUSing, getting super defensive, and trying to discredit it.

All the case is addressed. Also you saying 'discredit', that word does not mean what you think it means.

Hmm... Making your case be "He's wrong about everything." (Boo hoo!) and then you call it rubbish without engaging me on it. Yeah... I'm pretty sure it means exactly what I think it means.

[Bulbazak]

Prod dodge. This is on the list of games that I'll be getting to today, but I don't want to be prodded in my sleep.

[Bulbazak]

You are wrong about everything you've said, and that's alignment-indicative. It seems like a fine case to me.

First, if I was "wrong about everything", then that would be indicative of me being wrong, not me being scum. Second, how do you know I'm "wrong about everything" when I have commented on more than just you? Finally, you know yourself that being wrong is not alignment indicative, as you've seen me have crappy reads before. Which begs the question: Why are you trying to push this reason, that you know is crap, as evidence of my being scum?

How have I not addressed anything at all. Name a single point he's made that I haven't mentioned and addressed. Also claiming that my posts are saying that Bulba is 'wrong' is a wilful and undeniable misrepresentation of my claim that Bulba is 'wrong about everything'; Tier gives a dishonest impression with, just, enough similarity with the truth that it couldn't be done, but on purpose.

I see no difference in "wrong" and "wrong about everything", since the second is just an expansion on how wrong I supposedly am. You're stretching awfully hard to discredit Tier and myself here.

Forcing is related to his being wrong on everything. Also, the notion that I'm not scum hunting is absurd; I'm interacting with my top scum read, what's Tier been doing other than misrepresent?

I think the idea is that you're are not engaging with the game as a whole. And you are not freely interacting with me. You only interact with me after I call you out. Otherwise, you stay silent.

People keep on paying attention to null silliness rather than the clear and deliberate actions. You can't find scum motivation is the accidents of Kenobi and Zekrom. Bulb's constant errors, Tier's constant dishonesty. You find scum in two places; trends and stress points. We haven't had any 'stress points', and none of those things you mentioned are scummy trends. The scummy trends are coming from Tier and Bulb, and that's where I'm keeping my attention. It's being distracted by easy-to-comment-on null acts that gives us the best chance at losing this game.

So you're attacking everyone who suspects you. Gotcha.

Trends are simple. They don't have much ups and downs. That's why they're trends. Bulb is wrong. About everything; that's why it's a trend. Tier is constantly disnhonest, he mentions Bulba in every-other-post and never gives a sentence read. That's what makes it a trend.

This is bull crap, and you know it.

I don't think Emp's been under the radar. He took a very confrontational stance with the Bulba stuff, which is likely to draw attention, and it has. I'd say I'm much more of someone who's under the radar right now.

Empking has been repeating the same stuff over and over again and thus doesn't stick out anymore.

Problem is Bulb is doing the exact same thing. Both need to realize that we aren't lynching the other and stop complaining. Their current cases have no good merit to them so repeating them isnt going to do anything, at all.

I can understand that Emp probably isn't going to be lynched, but seeing as deadline is not approaching, I see no reason not to pursue my strongest scumspect. Besides, I don't care for any of the wagons atm, so I'm going to keep my vote where it is.

[Bulbazak]

More 'wrong about everything' from Bulb. His 'Second, how do you know I'm "wrong about everything" when I have commented on more than just you?' is quite obviously trying to suggest that one can't know anything if its about somebody else's posts. That's just nonsense. Psyche has claimed to have read the thread; am I some sort of wizard for knowing it even if its about Psyche's posts? No.

Added to that, Bulb's claim that even if he had failed to say a single truthhood in 24 posts then that wouldn't be alignment indicative is more stuff that's simply 'wrong'.

When you say "wrong about everything" you are making it an absolute. That means that not only am I wrong in regards to you, but I'm also wrong in regards to everything else I've said in the game, which would include to other people. How would you know that last one? Frankly, it would be impossible to know, making your statement hyperbole. It was meant to be overexaggerated, because you wanted to discredit your attacker, much like you immediately said everything Tier had EVER said in the game was lies and deceit when he pointed out the obvious flaw in your logic.

[Bulbazak]

Emp, I'm not going to play this twisted game of yours, especially since it's just a way to weasel out of being caught trying to discredit your attackers via semantics rather than actually addressing them. I don't have to show you squat. You made the assertion that

nothing

I've said was true, the Burden of Proof now falls to you to prove it.

[Bulbazak]

@mod: I'll be V/LA until the 18th. I'm getting my upper wisdom teeth removed, and I'll be spending most of the week recovering.

[Bulbazak]

however the back & forth between Empking / Bulbazak possibly seems one is hiding something

Hiding what? This post is so waffly it hurts. What is your point?

It took four players (me, Tier, Bulb and Psyche) to prove me wrong. If Bulb was a town, there's no question that it could've been found much quicker.

True. I just dislike stating how often I beat my wife.

however the back & forth between Empking / Bulbazak possibly seems one is hiding something

Is the lead in the water making you repeat things, or are you trying to float a possible push and seeing how people react?

I'm going to be V/LA for the next 3 or 4 days.

i find this post from Kenobi suspicious since the rules clearly say to use bold text to inform the GM about the V/LA otherwise i wouldn't have pointed this out

This is not only stretching it, but it's also a low blow.

Does anyone actually think that TierShift is town?

Raises hand.

Empking and Bulba's arguments don't look particularly alignment indicative at all. It looks more like ego than anything useful.

Hold that thought...

If either of you have a real argument to make about the other, please make it in a concise manner addressed to town, not just an argument with each other.

But I did. In fact, I think it was you who asked me, and I gave you my case in a concise manner. I've since given my case multiple times. What are you missing?

Empking in general looks townier than Bulba, though.

This is interesting. Didn't you just get done saying that the entire exchange was not alignment indicative? What makes Emp, then, look townier? Are you just taking some sort of alignment stance because you feel you should?

The rest of the post can be summed up as "Blah blah blah. I'm suspicious of all of you. Blah blah blah.".

I could also go for a cxi lynch. Dunno if he's scum but if he's going to play the whole game contradicting himself, he's a pretty good day 1 lynch.
So let me recap, people I'm currently willing to lynch:
Zekrom
Empking
CXI: MiJelly

Best. Pony. Ever.

@Mod: How many votes does Empking have, and is Whiskers voting somewhere on there?

[Bulbazak]

The VC says that Tier is still voting Emp, which puts him at the same level as Zekrom, who I'm still not totally convinced on, and I don't want to vote Cxin at the moment, as I'd like to enjoy a bit more discussion now that I'm back.

[Bulbazak]

I thought I made my thoughts clear in my quick catchup post. I like the Cxin lynch. Nothing really jumps out at me about Ken, although Zen is starting to give me scummy vibes. It almost seems too stupid to be scum, though, so I'm trying to determine if his recent play is a noob tell or a scum tell. I also still find Emp and Pasch incredibly scummy. On top of all that, I've explained why I'm keeping my vote on Emp for the time being. What more were you looking for?

[Bulbazak]

bulba...

I felt that both posts stemmed from the same reasoning. RBD's statement is the typical level of RVS BS I'd expect. Players will make statements like that all the time. That doesn't necessarily mean there's anything to them, something that Psyche and Empking should know. Each took a different tactic in regards to that statement, but they both stem from the larger issue that they commented on a non-statement and tried to fish based off of it. Emp took a more direct approach, and Psych went with the suspicious route. At least 1 of them is likely to be scum. Looking at that, why single Psyche out, yet leave Empking be?

You called my route "the suspicious route" in contradistinction to Empking's "the direct route" and yet wondered why I was being singled out?

I meant that you indicated slight suspicion of RBD based on that statement, while Empking asked RBD directly about it. Indirect suspicion vs. direct questioning. I never said you were the most suspicious.

[Bulbazak]

Actually, how many scum ARE there?

Given that it's a 13 player game, probably 3.

Unvote

Vote Zekrom25

[Bulbazak]

I'm not convinced 326 is necessarily from town. Why again can't new scum post that? He didn't even claim....

Anyway, since a cxin lynch won't be happening
UNVOTE:
VOTE: emp
Where's this guy at anyway?

I'd be down for a zekrom PL too, if necessary.

Quit playing with my heart.

Whiskers’ #273 is basically “I don’t know if he’s scum but let’s lynch him anyway”. Please explain this.

Except that's really not what she said, is it?

Unvote

Vote Cxinlee

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak's Hierarchy of Reads (D2)

Town

Whiskers
AJ The Epic
Tiershift
Psyche

Null/Town

Dry-Fit
Maxous

Null

Kenobi

Null/Scum

Cxinlee

Scum

Empking
Paschendale

Vote Paschendale

[Bulbazak]

That's an insanely good list, bulba. Only position I don't understand is pasch, why do you think he's scum?

I don't think he's as strongly town as others (and himself) are proclaiming him to be. I feel that he essentially strongarmed his way into that position, and is attempting to lead town by the nose. Not only that, but I can't really see where he's coming from most of the time. At all. I just get a very scummy feel from his posts. I know there were some more specific stuff that I pointed out yesterday, but I don't feel like looking for it atm.

Now let's talk about Bulba's read list.

Which is funny, because you do anything but in the next few sentences.

Psyche is NOT solidly town, null at best.

I felt the way he handled himself yesterday regarding the RBD questioning came from a very townie place, specifically when he was telling me to essentially go screw myself. I really can't see his actions coming from scum, since I feel he would have tried to justify himself more.

Tiershift is scum.

Nope.

Can someone who isn't Bulba and didn't spend all of day 1 arguing with Empking over what amounted to nothing weigh in on Emp and someone who isn't Emp weigh in on Bulba? I feel like both of them spent the whole of day 1 arguing and voting each other without giving any reasons why the rest of us would agree, which is a great distancing tactic. I think that if one of them is scum, they probably both are.

Did you read anything I said yesterday?

[Bulbazak]

My problem with Emp is that I think he and Bulba are scum for exactly the same reasons, but as I said above, I think they are the same alignment. If I'm wrong about Tiershift, then I will definitely want to string one or both of them up. But Emp and Bulba have, while doing the same thing (fighting with each other over nothing and ignore everything else going on yesterday), done it differently. I think Bulba spouted out more bullshit, and would want to lynch there first. I think that's a good way to set up a bus. But I'm certainly less sure of this than of Tiershift being scum.

So, I'm willing, but not eager, to support the wagon, but I don't want it to go down while people are saying that Empking is scummier than Bulba, because I find them equally scummy, and I think they're the same alignment.

You say Emp and I are scummy for the same reasons, what are those? You accuse me of spouting more BS (which is funny given Emp's whole argument is false and based on semantics), even though you never made much of an effort to understand my argument, even though I explained it multiple times. Furthermore, it's interesting what you are ignoring that Emp has done nothing outside of his OMGUS of Tier and myself, where I have tried to scumhunt elsewhere and actually participated in other discussions d1. So tell me, from which orifice are you pulling this newest interpretation of the Emp/Bulb/Tier argument? Because it seems to me that you're lining up future lynches for when Tier flips town.

[Bulbazak]

Emp's readlist is crap. His town list actually conforms to public opinion, and his scum list is essentially those who have voted him, with the exception of AJ. Emp, what is your read on AJ?

Also, @Bulba: Could you give a little bit of reasoning behind your readlists?

Whiskers is town, because I see strong town motivation behind his posts, and he's legitimately scumhunting. Same for AJ. Tier is town, because I've played several times with town Tier, and this matches his town game. Psyche is town, because I liked his response to my questions d1. His attitude comes from a very town place. Scum would be worried about appearance, whereas Psyche is not. Dry-Fit and Maxous are gut townreads, but I can't tell you how I'm getting that, so they're in the null/town pile while I try to figure them out more. Kenobi is null, because I don't know what to make of him. Cxinlee is a scumread for the same reasons as yesterday. Although, I'm starting to wonder about that read after some recent games, and I doubt it's that easy that I nailed all 3 scum right off the bat. It may end up being a read I need to reconsider, so I placed him as more null. Emp and Pasch are scum for the reasons I've already stated. Emp because he's overdefensive, and Pasch because he's not trying to scumhunt as much as he's trying to strongarm the town into following him.

Bulb is still his partner, though. His read list is no better.

Why not? Why didn't you ask for some clarification on my reads, like Ken did?

The only people he calls scum are obvtown me, his target for day 1, and a null/scum read on contentious Cx.

I was calling you scum yesterday as well, and it shouldn't be a surprise who my scumreads are, as a readthrough of my ISO would show you that I was suspicious of all of them yesterday as well. I also like how you call yourself obv. town, taking any judgement away from the town itself.

There's nothing original or useful there.

Nice way to discredit everything I've said without having to address them. It's pretty much what you've been doing all game.

And contrary to how much he falsely insists the opposite, Bulb never went out on a limb on anyone else. He'll poke a few people with a stick, but always went right back to Emp.

Actually, how many scum ARE there?

Given that it's a 13 player game, probably 3.

Unvote

Vote Zekrom25

I'm not convinced 326 is necessarily from town. Why again can't new scum post that? He didn't even claim....

Anyway, since a cxin lynch won't be happening
UNVOTE:
VOTE: emp
Where's this guy at anyway?

I'd be down for a zekrom PL too, if necessary.

Quit playing with my heart.

Whiskers’ #273 is basically “I don’t know if he’s scum but let’s lynch him anyway”. Please explain this.

Except that's really not what she said, is it?

Unvote

Vote Cxinlee

Vote Count

cxinlee:

Aj The Epic, Whiskers,

Bulbazak

, TierShift

Zekrom25:

Kenobi, cxinlee, Rainbowdash, Maxous, Dry-fit, Pachendale, Zekrom25

TierShift:

Empking

Not Voting:

Psyche

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

--------------------------

Silph Building, Saffron City.
Central Office, 3rd floor.
October 24th - 7:52pm.

It was dark outside, the Saffron skyline blinking in the night sky. Inside, there was a different type of blinking. Zekrom25 stood not two paces in front of the warp pad, where he would be ‘collected’. The jeers of the group were hypocritical to anyone that had seen Jessie and James in action. Rockets were never known to be too bright.
It was little save him though. Espe moved in on the target of everyone’s hate. He had his orders, and that meant Zekrom25 had to go.

“Go Pikachu!”
Zekrom25 released a Pokeball from his belt to reveal the yellow rodent, “Shock them all, lets get out, I never should have joined.”
Not to be outdone by one of the recruits, Espe’s namesake, sprung from atop the filing cabinet she’d been sitting on all day unbeknownst to everyone. Within the second, the Espeon had the Pikachu fainted with a burst of mental energy.

The mob of Rockets closed in forcing Zekrom back on to warp pad.

Employee Report

Name: Zekrom25
Status: Rocket
Rank: Grunt
Specialisation: None

Giovanni has indicated his displeasure with today’s result. Potential public backlash means we had to put down one of our new grunts. This isn’t a good start. The Silph President is unaware of the situation. Continue with your work. Get them all to the level 9 sleeping quarters when the escort arrives

.

-------------------------------

Zekrom25, Rocket Grunt

, Lynched Day 1

It is now night phase. Night will last for 48 hours. Deadline is set at 26th Jan, 1:15am (AusEDT)

And the most recent "lining up lynches" line. I've only ever seen town accused of that, because only town is actually trying to find links between people.

It's interesting that you avoided the meat of my post, as well as the questions that I asked you.

I'd far prefer to lynch Tiershift than Emp, but I was trying to do some PoE, and Bulb and Emp as scum partners trying to obfuscate started looking better and better. Unless they're both town and stupid. Which is equally viable.

Walk me through your thought process here, because I want to know what magical PoE you just suddenly did that made you arrive at a Bulb/Emp scum team when you couldn't be bothered to read anything about it yesterday.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, the meat of what post? And what questions? 449? It contained exactly one question, and that question was answered in the post you were quoting.

Yes, #449. It asked about your reasoning, and if I have to ask, that means that you didn't address it. Shoving it aside like you did and discrediting it by only referring to the last line is scummy, especially when you then try to act like those questions and issues were already addressed. I want my questions and concerns to be addressed, not dismissed.

I reasoned that, despite it not being my top choice to lynch you two, it still might be a good idea.

Is that why you jumped on the Emp wagon when it started building up? Is that why you sought to end the day early? Heck, I'd love to lynch him too, but it's too early in the day phase, and there's some more info I'd like to gather.

[Bulbazak]

Bulb: Conditional on Kenbeing scum, Aj is a town read.

How is AJ being town conditional on Ken's flip?

Shh, don't let pasch know that zekrom was actually a reverse death miller...

You mean a death godfather?

[Bulbazak]

His Cx vote at the end of the day was not supported and doesn't absolve him of wasting the entire rest of day 1.

I don't feel d1 was wasted.

One of them found scum right away in this game and has been valiantly fighting, despite not being able to convince the rest of us at all throughout day 1?

You'd be surprised how often this happens with me.

They're working on not a lot more than OMGUS.

My case is not OMGUS, tyvm. It's been very plainly laid out.

Why are you voting paschendale for this over Empking when you can hardly remember why you find Pasch scummy in the first place? You did'nt seem to have a problem clarifying why Emp was scum.

I've stated repeatedly why I find Pasch scummy in general. There were some more specific instances that I pointed out yesterday, but they're buried in my ISO, and I don't feel like trying to find them.

additionally:

@bulbazak

: Are you aware that Empking is voting Tiershift for being scumbuddies with you? I don't see much of a reaction to it.

Emp is voting Tier, because Tier voted him. He is justifying that vote by saying he's scum with me. I see that vote as a joke, so I didn't feel the need to address it.

[Bulbazak]

I'm actually interested in that information as well.

[Bulbazak]

So for now I'm going to leave emp alone, I've gotten a pretty good read on him and unless he does something to drastically change that, I'll be chasing him up later on. For now, though, I need to look at others.

If you were going to leave Emp alone, why are you keeping your vote on him?

[Bulbazak]

I was asking why he is scummier than empking to you when you're reasoning upon voting him was 'not as town as others think he is and he is town-leading scum' (while not really showing where).
You're empking stuff looked more convincing (to me), yet you opted for the pasch vote.

I wanted to give Empking a day phase to prove himself if he was town. I was pursuing my other scumread.

Why keep saying 'there's stuff in my D1 ISO' instead of just quickly going through that and clarifing 'this is why pasch is scum'
I'm wondering how much conviction you have in pushing him over the line to a lynch.

I've had other stuff on my mind recently, and I don't feel like sorting through multiple posts in an effort to reconstruct my original thought process.

Unvote

Vote Empking

L-2 is a good place for him, and he hasn't stepped up like I expected him to if he was town.

[Bulbazak]

I'd just like to say that I still don't buy empking-scum

Why not?

[Bulbazak]

Hey! Deadline is Tuesday. Empking needs more votes.

[Bulbazak]

The deadline is indeed looming, but I'm not sure whether I want to go for Dry or Emp; and don't forget, Bulba, you were the one that decided that I needed to unvote Emp, rather than let it sit until I'd decided where I was going to look next.

You said you were going to leave Emp alone. I just thought it was odd that you'd say that while still voting Emp.

Actually, Bulba, I'm interested in who your scumreads at the moment are, outside of Emp?

Pasch and Cxin. Cxin is the weakest of the 2.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, have recent happenings shifted your view on dry-fit?

He's now more null than null/town.

[Bulbazak]

What do you think of his case on me?

I don't agree with it, especially after having played with you, but I don't find it scummy.

Can you elaborate on the read?

I'm not sure how to read him. Ergo, he's null.

Whiskers’ #273 is basically “I don’t know if he’s scum but let’s lynch him anyway”. Please explain this.

Except that's really not what she said, is it?

Unvote

Vote Cxinlee

Cxinlee is a scumread for the same reasons as yesterday.

unless i've missed something this is what bulb has given for cx-scum.

I think I mentioned him a few more times as well, but it was mainly because I didn't like the way he's reacted for the most part this game. It's not much, but then again, this read is not as strong as the scumreads I have on Emp and Pasch.

[Bulbazak]

but it was mainly because I didn't like the way he's reacted for the most part this game.

for example?

When he reacted to Ken as if he knew he was town.

[Bulbazak]

but it was mainly because I didn't like the way he's reacted for the most part this game.

for example?

When he reacted to Ken as if he knew he was town.

Which reaction are we talking about?

Okay finally I got some net time on my comp.

Acknowledging that my point on Empking was weak, since he was trying, as Pasch said, to echo the phrasing used by Bulb.

Kenobi sidelining and not bothering to scumhunt is lame, only bothering to make a post with content after he is attacked.

Zekrom25, can you answer your questions about the vote on pasch? And I’m slow, how was his post a bait?

VOTE: Kenobi
If you’re town, step it up. If you’re scum, I request nothing of you.

[Bulbazak]

I felt that both posts stemmed from the same reasoning. RBD's statement is the typical level of RVS BS I'd expect. Players will make statements like that all the time. That doesn't necessarily mean there's anything to them, something that Psyche and Empking should know. Each took a different tactic in regards to that statement, but they both stem from the larger issue that they commented on a non-statement and tried to fish based off of it. Emp took a more direct approach, and Psych went with the suspicious route. At least 1 of them is likely to be scum. Looking at that, why single Psyche out, yet leave Empking be?

Was this just an attempt to have someone else join you on the empking wagon or were you suspicious of both of them yourself? You went to a lot of effort to identify both as perpetrators of what Maxous was voting my slot for at the start. In fact I'm not even sure your reasoning for your empking read has developed much more than what it existed as back in this stage.

Maxous was pursuing Psyche for reasons that were not unique to Psyche. I wanted to know why he was pursuing Psyche specifically, when Emp had essentially done the same thing. At this point I had already ruled Psyche out due to his reaction. I didn't like Emp's reaction, so I continued to push him. Since then, Emp has continued to do nothing to scumhunt, and his scum list is composed entirely of those who suspect him.

[Bulbazak]

Kenobi, that Dry-Fit wagon is not going anywhere. You should vote Emp. You too, Whiskers.

[Bulbazak]

for the record, cheery dog and cxinlee, since you're voting pasch you guys should probably have a look at RBD's last posts particularly this one.

Does this mean that you think Pasch is town or scum?

[Bulbazak]

Tier is town. Lynch Scumking.

[Bulbazak]

If you don't want empking, i'm open for bulbazak.

Are you suggesting I'm bussing?

[Bulbazak]

You sent in a track and got no reply at all? Generally mods always send a response to an investigation, even if it's "X went nowhere.". Why do you suppose the mod would not send you a response to a track request?

[Bulbazak]

Bulb: Why would you know that 'flipflopping and bad play, are part of [Tier's] town game'?

Because I've played with town Tier before. And I would charactarize Tier's play as having a sort of genuine earnestness behind trying to figure things out.

You sent in a track and got no reply at all? Generally mods always send a response to an investigation, even if it's "X went nowhere.". Why do you suppose the mod would not send you a response to a track request?

I know, that's why I'm asking about it. It's unusual. Why point out the extremely obvious?

Because it seemed unusual to me. I'm not sure how much I buy it. Besides, you never addressed why you decided to track RBD in the first place.

[Bulbazak]

I had Dashie as null/town on day 1, and was wrong about that.

She

was

town.

[Bulbazak]

Before you're metaing on this scale, have you also played with him as scum?

Not yet, but I expect that there would be a difference in the way he would reach conclusions.

[Bulbazak]

Anyone not voting Tier or Emp needs to do so (But no hammering right now. I'd like time for a claim/final reads.), preferably Emp.

[Bulbazak]

I'm only going to vote tier if I want to prevent a nl.

Why is Pasch's claim real? is it possible for a scum tracker to exist? And why claim so early?

Why did you avoid mentioning Emp?

[Bulbazak]

Doctor Bulb, I clearly haven't been particularly invested in this game so far, but please do remind me: has Tiershift generally been so buddy with you?

Like, does he always have his snakes in your

c

asserole? Does he always hang his shoes in your

o

vercoat? Does he always tickle the beard on your

p

entacles?

Because he seems very excited to lump you in with him now. Like you're an

item

. Like he's scum, and wants people to look at you, when he flips it. Or like he's scum, and not clever or experienced enough to know he shouldn't be rubbing and purring with his scumpartner.

Regardless, it's all very upsetting. Do you have any idea, mate?

I haven't really seen any evidence of him buddying me. It's true that he helped push Emp and that he stated I knew his meta (although I don't agree with the way he characterized it), but I would think that him trying to buddy in the manner that you're suggesting would be more clumsy.

[Bulbazak]

Goodsruffs whiskers

He better be scun

If we're wrong, and Emp flips town, and you use that as a reason to go after Whiskers, I swear I will hang you from the highest tree.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak's Hierarchy of Reads (D3)

Town

Whiskers
AJ The Epic
Paschendale

Null/Town

Cheery Dog
Dry-Fit

Null

Kenobi
Maxous

Scum

Tiershift
Cxinlee

[Bulbazak]

First of all, I'd like to apologize for my lazy and survivalistic behaviour at the end of day 2. It was one of the factors that led us to this lazy lynch, but I still don't have any idea why emp didn't claim. I have been acting scummily lately and I don't know why I wasn't just lynched instead of emp. I think there was scum on the emp wagon, but I also think scum split up.
So maybe two on the emp wagon and one on me.

Thinking hard and thouroughly about it, I think we've been looking for scum in the wrong places. The one likely scum on my wagon is probably not pasch with his claim and all, but Aj. He's looked some sort of disconnected from this game and I hope I can pinpoint what makes him scummy more later on.

How has he looked disconnected from the game?

For some reason, bulba seems to fit the criteria and him not noticing me buddying him and calling this equal to my towngame from before are all pretty odd.

I didn't think you were buddying me. I see buddying as a deliberate action done by scum to get on town's good side. I didn't think you were doing that. But now you're saying that you were buddying me? And how does my not noticing make me the suspicious one? Also, why is my making a connection between this game and your town game (which are the only games I've actually seen you in) odd? Besides, weren't you making that point yourself, and more blatantly emphasizing your scumminess to boot? In fact, isn't that the same thing you're doing now, emphasizing your scumminess?

I'm scratching my head as to who the other scum on the emp wagon would be, because I've quite dismissed cx from being scum.

Why is Cxin not scum?

Actually scratch the townread on pasch, just more not sure more than anything.

What about Pasch's outing his role didn't feel genuine to you?

This is actually interesting. Do we have meta on Bulbazak? Is he decent as scum? Because if he's not.... you might have a thing there.

What are you trying to get at here? That Tier has a point about me not noticing scummy behavior making me scum, but only if I'm bad as scum? If that's the case, who's my partners, because I'm not sure what kind of argument you can make out of that?

Vote Tiershift

Using a lynch he pushed to springboard other lynches leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Also, I'm not lynching Dry-Fit or Cheery Dog for any reason.

[Bulbazak]

Hmm, that is a sudden switch.

I can't see in that post why I went from a strong townread to a strong scumread, is it because I stopped blindly trusting you?

Goodsruffs whiskers

He better be scun

Goodsruffs whiskers

He better be scun

If we're wrong, and Emp flips town, and you use that as a reason to go after Whiskers, I swear I will hang you from the highest tree.

You didn't go after Whiskers, but you are trying to use Emp's wagon as a means to lynch other people.

[Bulbazak]

In 694, just after the hammer, he seems to be setting himself up to push for me. Before that, he only called me town at every occasion he could find. It's weird that it just all topples at the hammer.
Now, he uses the reasoning from that vote again, but now in a different context:

Using a lynch he pushed to springboard other lynches leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I don't think there's more than one scum on my wagon and the fact that I'm using that is not enough to warrant this sudden switch.

I saw your posturing in twilight. I didn't like it.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, why was I such a strong townread before, then?

Your play thus far has felt like your play when you were town. I started to lose that feel starting with your post in twilight.

Do you think I've been scummy all along?

Are you asking if I've felt you were scum all game, or if you've been scum the entire time and I just noticed it? For the latter, my noticing your scumminess has nothing to do with the realities of your alignment. As for the former, I had a townread on you up until you postured using the Emp wagon to pursue lynches in twilight. Whisker's post had shaken me a little bit, but I still had a firm townread on you at that point.

Now, bulbi, try to assume that I'm town for a second here. Don't make lousy jokes like 'but you're not' or anything of the kind.
As I'm town, I know that both lynch targets, me and emp, were town. Since we have two wagons that every single person voted on, it's only reasonable to assume scum split up, right? Now, I have 2 lynchpools of each five players with at least one scum each. In the one pool there's my wagon, with at least one mason and a possible tracker and a little scumread I'm not sure of (AJ), while in the other pool, there's 2 firm townreads. Why am I not allowed to use that information in my scumhunting process and why is it scummy to do so? Is that really all you have on me?

There's a difference between using VCA and PoE to try to figure out likely scum and saying "You're scum because you were on the Empking wagon.", especially since you pushed the same wagon.

I saw your posturing in twilight. I didn't like it.

Eh, I was inebriated and just complimenting whiskers on hammering emp and not me, really.

There's no way "He better be scum." is a compliment and not a threat.

[Bulbazak]

ugh, #706 looks like such an awkward jump onto Tiershift.
a bit over-justified maybe?, idk. Does'nt give me the fuzzies, bulb hasn't really all game

What do you think of Tier's posturing and trying to use the wagon he was on to lynch people?

[Bulbazak]

My scumhunting now essentially is PoE, I'm having a pool of 5 people with 2 firm townreads, by PoE you, cx and max are left, with you being scummiest. How is that not PoE?

So your pool of 5 people that leaves you with 3 suspects comes exclusively from the Emp wagon? Yeah, of course you're not using that to push lynches.

Don't even try to convince anyone of how I would push whiskers for deadline hammering the wagon I was pushing. Are you really trying to say I was setting myself up to do that? That's absolutely ridiculous, not just a tad, but immensely.
I have not expressed any suspicion of whiskers lately and suggedting my post was posturing to do so just isn' t correct.

I was just hoping emp would flip scum, which he didn't, sadly.

If you want, I can even link drunkposts made at the same time elsewhere.

I should probably just not drunkpost.

But yeah, you pushing only that is ridiculous, as said.

Why would trying to set up a lynch of a deadline hammer be ridiculous? Is it that it's Whiskers? Is it that I pointed it out, so you have to say that you were not going to do it? I don't see how "He better be scum." is not a threat. I don't see how that's supposed to be encouraging, especially since that post was made right after Whiskers hammered. I saw you do that, right after Whiskers had warned me about you. I saw you preparing for the next day, and I was pretty furious, mainly because it means I can't read you worth crap.

Tier Bulba what am I missing here why won't you lynch Cheery or I?

You both never voted Emp.

[Bulbazak]

I have not expressed any suspicion of whiskers lately and suggedting my post was posturing to do so just isn' t correct.

Btw, I should go ahead and say now; I'm not town.

That's really all I can fairly say about it, though.

I'm guessing you're the one responsible for the other shot?

[Bulbazak]

I would still like to hear more from Whiskers regarding her role.

[Bulbazak]

does the scum team know something about pasch that we don't?

Like what? What caused you to bring up this question?

[Bulbazak]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: bulba

Whiskers, I want to hear what you think of bulba's sudden switch.

So you try to attack a town PR, fail, and then come back to me for catching you posturing an attack based on the Emp wagon?

[Bulbazak]

A scum tracker is quite a huge assumption, while a town tracker is not.

Why's that?

[Bulbazak]

The only other player here to know that my town game is like this (clumsy) is bulba. Yet he scumreads me for a minor thing (drunkposting in twilight). He knows I'm like this as town but yet he sees an easy target. It's just wrong.

It wasn't the posting. It was the action. You were preparing yourself to use Empking's wagon as a means to lynch more people when we hadn't even seen the flip. That's what made me rethink my read on you. You got impatient and tipped your hand.

[Bulbazak]

I saw your posturing in twilight. I didn't like it.

Eh, I was inebriated and just complimenting whiskers on hammering emp and not me, really.

Bulb - the explanation for the 'posturing to attack Whiskers' thing is here, he wasn't attacking Whiskers during the hammer.

I still don't see how "Emp better be scum." is not a threat. Nobody has bothered addressing this. And if we're going to start taking "I was drunkposting." as an excuse, perhaps I should start drinking more when I'm scum, that way when I'm cornered I can say "I was only drunkposting. Lol.".

Honestly, everyone who is on my wagon isn't trying to figure out the game except for whiskers....

That is a lie. I've explained why I think you are scum. I showed evidence of why I think you are scum. Not only that, but I've been trying to figure out what we are dealing with in regards to both scum and 3rd party. But suddenly, everybody who is voting you is suddenly not trying to figure out the game? Bull crap!

[Bulbazak]

Keep backpedaling scum.

[Bulbazak]

So you don't think Whiskers is 3rd party?

[Bulbazak]

But no, whiskers probably isn't third party.

Why not?

[Bulbazak]

Because third party don't just claim?
Plus, if there's a SK like dry-fit's story seems to suggest, it would be weird to have another third party role.
I'm not used to playing mini themes, but I can't remember ever having seen two third party roles in a normal-ish mini theme.

Then it's possible that Whiskers might be the only 3rd party, but might not be telling the truth about her role. That's why Pasch and I have been prodding her.

[Bulbazak]

Yeah, so you think SK would just claim they're 3rd party+inviting the tracker to conf themselves by tracking them?
Yeah, no.

Just because it's not a SK per se doesn't mean that it's not a role that can kill in some fashion, thus getting rid of a BP. Heck, it could even be a SK with investigation immunity.

Is there even a trackable non-SK 3rd party role? Can't think of one.

This is a theme game. Who knows?

[Bulbazak]

Bulb, something I forgot, why is pasch a townread now?

The tracker claim. The more I go over it, the less I can see that claim coming from scum, especially given the way he claimed.

[Bulbazak]

Do you consider a scum tracker a possibility?

Given that I've been on a team with a scum tracker before, I do consider the existence of such a role a possibility. I just don't think it's likely given Pasch's reaction.

[Bulbazak]

Can you hit this in more detail? Why do Pasch's claim and reaction make him a town tracker, not a scum one?

Pasch outing himself as tracker when discussing RBD's actions, and then later realizing he made a mistake just feels very town to me. I would think a scum tracker would keep his role secret, as that means he's holding all the cards and can use them to his advantage. Pasch put himself out in the open, and the moment he realizes that looks like genuine town realizing he messed up. I'm sure it's possible for scum to come up with something like that as a gambit, but I find it unlikely now that we're closer to endgame. Plus, I don't think Pasch would even think of it as scum, nor be able to pull it off.

Besides, didn't you think his reaction was town as well?

[Bulbazak]

A no kill gambit is very risky this late in the game. Why do you think Pasch would risk it?

[Bulbazak]

EBWOP: This early in the game.

[Bulbazak]

But why take

that

risk as scum? It just doesn't seem likely to me, especially coming from Pasch.

[Bulbazak]

So who do you think it would have come from then?

He fricken owned up to it by "thanking" the doc.

And you don't think that there is a doctor in this game and that they protected the claimed PR?

[Bulbazak]

If there is a doctor that protected pasch, well just as well pasch's team decided to no kill gambit.

I'm still not seeing the supposed no kill gambit.

[Bulbazak]

You just proved absolutely nothing.

[Bulbazak]

so you think there is a legit possibility that Whiskers is a serial killer.
you are being very passive about it considering the circumstances.

I'm trying to balance out the possibilities instead of just charging in blindly. If we mess up, we could end up in Mylo or Lylo. Normally, I'd be all up for eliminating a NK, but we're still not sure that Whiskers is a SK, just a third party. That's why I want to know her wincon so bad, so I can make the best decision possible. Personally, I don't even think we should end the day until we know this bit of information. The only reason we should be lynching Whiskers is if we can't find scum at deadline, or if she refuses to cooperate.

[Bulbazak]

Also, im going to ignore whisker's "claim" until he hardclaims a certain role. And i dont think hes going to do it at this stage.

Why would you want to ignore a third party claim, especially since there is a possibility that it could be harmful to the town?

[Bulbazak]

Whiskers, what is your wincon?

[Bulbazak]

Does anyone truly believe an anti-town 3rd party would just claim 3rd party? Really?

Not likely. But then again, Whiskers claimed at a time that we were starting to realize that there might be a 3rd party in the game via the mason team losing a BP. The claim might have been preemptive damage control. I actually have a theory regarding the role, but I need to do some checking first.

frakin, sigh

unvote, vote: Bulbazak

You seemed to be thinking Tier-scum awhile ago. Why the sudden reverse, and why so downhearted about it, as if we are twisting your arm? Is it because Tier is saying he'd be willing to lynch you?

[Bulbazak]

Okay, I think that the random question the mod asked us to confirm was not random. I think we all got whatever pokémon we chose. I also have a feeling that Whiskers is looking for a specific one, probably to take it in some capacity. So far, her responses seem to indicate being able to take it via some sort of night action, maybe even just piggy backing off of other's night kills. That is assuming she doesn't have night kills of her own. Heck, maybe she only had one and she wasted it n1. If that's the case, and she can only get the pokémon she's looking for via that player being NK'd, I don't see how she is helpful to the town. She's certainly not harmful, but she would rely more on the scum team's choices than the town's. And if she's relying on NKs to get the pokémon she wants, I doubt that scum is holding it. Maybe I'm totally off base here, but that's the best I could come up with given all that we know and have been told.

[Bulbazak]

and the fact that RBD + Emp thought he was scum kinda helps too.

RBD and I haven't been getting along recently, and Emp was just playing bad.

Tier willing to lynch in a weak manner is irritating me and I'm a bit doubtful he would be doing that as scum.

Why?

[Bulbazak]

Maxous, where are you getting that we'll be in Lylo tomorrow?

[Bulbazak]

Maxous, where are you getting that we'll be in Lylo tomorrow?

if we mislynch and there is a successful night-kill there will be 8 remaining...so lylo

Typical scum team for a 13 player game is 3, so that would be Mylo.

[Bulbazak]

bulba, the thing is until he hardclaims, and his role is proven, we don't know if he's an anti-town third-party or not. Heck, he could even be mafia

So what is your stance on him? Should we vote him, not vote him, give him our pokémon and hope he goes away? Because you don't seem to be taking much of a stance here, and you're not voting either, so I'm just curious.

[Bulbazak]

bulbazak not-posting is weird.

Busy, tired, and my mind is elsewhere at the moment. Did you have a specific query?

[Bulbazak]

I'm actually pulling a reverse Emp, my suspects this day (bulb and max) both attacked me after I outed my suspicion on them, not the other way around.

Nope. I began suspecting you before then. Nice try.

Cause it would probably have been wasted last night?

How so?

F this shit I'm a 1-shot watcher.

Why didn't you watch the claimed tracker last night?

Who do you think was worth watching last night, really?

Pasch, the guy who claimed a PR d2.

[Bulbazak]

Why would I watch the guy that won't be NK'd cause everyone thinks he's scum?

Besides Cheery and perhaps you, everybody seemed to be thinking Pasch town at the beginning of the day, in part because of the claim. Again, why wouldn't you watch a claimed PR?

[Bulbazak]

I also find it suspicious that Tier claims a guilty only in Mylo. If Aj is town and we lynch him, then scum automatically wins. Normally I'm pretty gullible when it comes to claims, but this one just doesn't make sense to me. Whiskers has to be SK given the kill, so she's going to make the best choice for her to win the game, which means that if she killed Pasch, she's going to vote Tier, whereas if she didn't, she'll vote Aj. I think we should wait for her to come in and then sheep for the best possibility of lynching scum.

[Bulbazak]

In that case bulba, its auto lose for town

How so? It's in Whiskers best interest to lynch scum as well, since if she doesn't, and we lynch town, she'll lose. In that case, she'll be voting scum by necessity. We lynch scum, rely on Whiskers for a cross kill, and then we're hopefully in better shape come tomorrow.

[Bulbazak]

In that case bulba, its auto lose for town

We could end up with a prisoner's dilemma.

The way you're continuing about being autolose for town while there is a slim possibly it's not (as the mafia would know Whiskers has claimed third party), makes me think you just want more apathy and my townread on you is dodgy.

But for town to still win without resulting in a prisoner's dilemma. (or worse a king maker)
scum lynch today
whiskers to kill scum tonight. (we assume mafia decide not to kill whiskers while there are 2 members alive, so one townie dies)
We are now at 3:1:1 - lynch mafia/sk, preferably mafia as if it was wrong, the PA still comes in.
SK kills town
We lynch SK = town win.

This is incorrect in the most likely case of 3 mafia.
It's creepy that you are assuming two.

There are 3 there. 1 lynched today, 1 killed by the SK during the night, and 1 lynched tomorrow.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbie what are your thoughts

Whiskers knows who he killed, and thus, who is scum. I figure sheeping him will prevent a mislynch. I also think Cxin is scum, due to the fact that he tried to shoot down sure fired reasoning for lynching scum.

[Bulbazak]

As I've stated multiple times, Whiskers will be playing to her wincon when voting, which means that she will correctly vote scum. Cxin says that following Whiskers would result in an auto loss for town, which it has been shown is false. He's relying on an Appeal to Fear to try to steer others from the correct course of action and toward acting hastily, which would likely result in a mislynch and a town loss. There is no town motivation for that, only scum. Ergo, Cxin is scum, along with whoever of Tier/Aj is scum.

[Bulbazak]

Do you believe that crap yourself?

My logic is pretty sound and is the only way I can see to ensure a guaranteed scum lynch. What do you find problematic about the logic?

This is worse than the way you were pushing for my lynch yesterday

How so? It looks like I hit the nail right on the head.

Ergo, Cxin is scum, along with whoever of Tier/Aj is scum.

You're forgetting the third scum, is that yourself?

I haven't figured out who the third scum is yet. I figured lynch the two we know and then use PoE to find the last one.

Ok nvm this let's not go 1v1 with AJ

I'm a serial killer.

Claiming a scum role feels glorious.

I miscalced/misread bulbas post.

Bulba's read seems poor (Very quick to call me out despite the possibility that I missed something)

I don't see how you could misread my post. I was pretty clear in regards to my logic. So do you want to pass by me again why you think following the claimed 3rd party to find scum and avoid a mislynch will lead to an auto town loss?

VOTE: bulba

It should be very obvious that there is at least one scum on my wagon and I'm back to leaning bulba. Or bulba+AJ.

So you're a claimed anti-town (scum) role, which means that we were right about you yesterday when we wagoned you. Why does that automatically mean that scum were pushing you, especially when it shows that we were right in pushing you? Your logic does not compute.

We really need to lynch between Tier/Cxin/Whiskers today in order to hit scum. I really doubt that there are 2 3rd party roles in this game, following Occam's Razor, and as such, one of Tier/Whiskers is mafia. I'm personally leaning Tier, since his interactions with Cxin, and Cxin's defence of Tier look like team interactions. It also doesn't make sense that Tier as SK would 1v1 somebody in Mylo, since that would mean that if he was wrong, he'd automatically lose. However, it's perfect to claim a false guilty as mafia, since a lynch would end in a win. However, since it is Mylo, I feel it is not best to lynch between Tier and Whiskers today. Instead, we should lynch Cxin and hope that the issue sorts itself out during the night via crosskills.

Vote Cxinlee

Whiskers, listen to your heart.

[Bulbazak]

Actually, to their credit, if they were both mafia, why would they be doing that "team interaction" in the first place? They just came from a long Night, presumably with nighttalk open. They wouldn't need to talk about what roles they were, or what roles the thought

Whiskers

was, in the thread-- they would have had plenty of time to hammer it out.

I think it was because something happened that they didn't expect: I suggested following the SK to sort out which one was scum. Notice that's when Cxin first piped up and tried to discredit the idea. As for you, you're either mafia or SK, so it wouldn't take much of a leap to figure you out based on their roles and the night actions.

Bulba do you think whiskers is not scum?

She's either mafia or SK. I'm leaning SK. I don't think there are two 3rd party roles.

Btw, Bulbazak, how would TierSK "automatically lose" if he 1v1'd somebody and "was wrong"? Doesn't an SK want to lynch town today, avoid crosskills, and coast to endgame with the mafia?

The typical scum wincon is making up at least 50% of the town. In that case, if town was lynched today, and mafia were not killed tonight, the game would end in a mafia win, since they would make up 50% of the town. In order to have a chance at winning, the SK would have to hit mafia tonight and avoid getting killed if town was lynched. 1v1ing someone in Mylo is a huge risk for a SK, since he's not only putting himself on the line, but if he's wrong, he's just made his job harder. However, it's not that huge of a risk for mafia.

[Bulbazak]

Yo bulbie 1040 should make it pretty clear whiskers believes me to be the SK and doesn't CC me.

I don't see how.

But, uh... why not

not

hit mafia tonight?
Town is lynched
Mafia town kill
SK town kill
Mafia & Win!!

??

Mafia would win. SK would not. This is due to Mafia meeting their wincon of making up at least 50% of the town, and the SK not meeting their wincon.

Also, in the response to the first quote here-- that's evidence of Tiershift 1/1ing again, isn't it, just with me this time.

The difference is that I don't think lynching either of you is in the town's best interest today, especially when Cxin has essentially claimed scum.

I had the idea that if whiskers killed pasch, aj was scum. and vice versa, so I thought you meant it was auto lose

I don't see how you could get that at all.

If Tiershift flips sk, and there are 3 mafia left, won't we lose?

Town would lose, yes. You're not town, though.

[Bulbazak]

Why aren't you voting him?

[Bulbazak]

Ok nvm this let's not go 1v1 with AJ

I'm a serial killer.

Claiming a scum role feels glorious.

So why did you not care about Whiskers claiming a third party yesterday?

Lol are you saying I should have claimed SK yesterday?
That's so dumb
The only thing I needed to do yesterday was to survive the day and then hit town at night so I couldn't be lynched today.

But if you were the SK, why didn't you suspect Whiskers of being Mafia yesterday, or even crosskill her during the night to prevent this very situation?

The difference is that I don't think lynching either of you is in the town's best interest today, especially when Cxin has essentially claimed scum.

How has he?

He tried to discredit a method which would have led to a guaranteed scum lynch: Follow Whiskers (SK), because she knows who scum is. There is no town motivation for that.

Aj is maybe town so he can come talk here too.

Say what now?

[Bulbazak]

But if you were the SK, why didn't you suspect Whiskers of being Mafia yesterday, or even crosskill her during the night to prevent this very situation?

Uh, I

wanted

to reach this situation. Now I can't be lynched, otherwise I would very likely be lynched.

So much wrong with this, especially when the next sentence is:

He tried to discredit a method which would have led to a guaranteed scum lynch: Follow Whiskers (SK), because she knows who scum is. There is no town motivation for that.

What the actual crap is that
He didn't agree with a certain plan so he's scum? Just wtf? Town don't agree with rational plans all the time, gtfo.

You agree that my original plan regarding Whiskers was rational, and that it would have caught you (i.e., she would know your true alignment and sheeping her onto you would have resulted in a scum lynch.). Cxin tried to discredit that line of thinking. Ergo, he didn't want town to go down that direction and lynch you (scum). Not only does this mean that he didn't want a scum lynch, since he wanted us to not think through a 1v1 with you, but it also means that he knew your alignment. And the only way that he could know your alignment was if you were both partners. Ergo, he's scum. Btw, this also proves that Aj is town, since you were trying to rush into the mislynch using a fake guilty.

I think you're mistaken here, I need to lynch scum here to have any shot at reaching my wincon.

Then why aren't you voting Whiskers, if she must be scum from you perspective?

You are still alive and it's probably because you are new here and are easily swayed by the experienced scum. They are manipulating you like shit into voting me, but I'm asking you to disregard all the flawed logic in the above posts by bulb&co and just come to the conclusion on if I need a scum lynch or not yourself. I'll answer any questions you have.
And when you're done with that, please vote bulba.

Actually, I'm saying that we should lynch Cxin, and leave you for tomorrow if you're not crosskilled. Although, I think there is more than enough evidence at this point to show you're actually mafia.

[Bulbazak]

I'm so confused right now. So Whiskers is third party, TS is SK (ANOTHER third party)?

What's there to be confused about? Do you honestly think there are two 3rd party roles in the game?

@Dry: could you please explain what about my interactions with Tier scream scumbuddies? I'm a VT. Plain and simple. There's no point going after me at this point; you're the only person who seems to think I'm even likely to be scum, so...

This just feels so slimy...

Okay, reading done. Aj, that post is feeling mighty scummy to me. Your only focus is on Tier, which (while I can understand it) isn't really helpful with the rest of the stuff going on. What are you thinking with the whole whiskers/tier thing?

Why is that post scummy? Why is it unhelpful to focus on Tier/Whiskers, when it's guaranteed that one of them is mafia?

Bulba is flipflopping in my reads, but all this focus on tiershift isn't particularly helpful.

Again, why not? Tier is an admitted anti-town role and very likely mafia. Why is it unhelpful to focus on him?

Nor is Tier's focus on Bulba. This is an empking/bulba fiasco all over again. And we saw how well that worked last time.

Actually... if Bulb's trying the same tactic he used on empking, I'm suspicious that he's scum. Still just a theory, though, so feel free to shoot me down for it. I wouldn't mind someone not named Tiershift weighing in on this though.

Except we have very good evidence on Tier, evidence that points to him being scum. I dislike how you're trying to dismiss the Tiershift push, and how you're ignoring all the evidence against him. You are also ignoring that we have a lot more information on Tiershift than we had on Empking. It should be easy to look at his actions in this game and determine whether they are consistent with town or scum motivation. Why are you trying to ignore that?

[Bulbazak]

Whiskers is not a SK, I have no idea how you can still think so. She's just scum.

And you're still not voting her...

@Bulba: following whiskers would have been stupid since she's scum.

All information at the time pointed to Whiskers being the SK, in fact it still does. As such, she would know who was scum or not, given as she'd have information on the NKs. I don't see how relying on a role that had to lynch scum as well is such a bad thing.

I didn't push before, because I didn't want to reveal my role before.

And why did you claim now? Because following Whiskers was guaranteed to lynch you?

And that last post by bulba is manipulative again.

How so?

[Bulbazak]

I propose a massclaim.

I see your proposal, and I reject it. I'm not giving you any more information.

[Bulbazak]

I already know she's either SK or mafia, so why would I need to hear her claim? Why would you?

[Bulbazak]

considering whiskers is sk /mafia, tier is claimed sk

Why'd you put Whiskers as SK/Mafia, but not Tier?

bulba is apparently mafia

How do get this? I don't see any build up whatsoever, and the only one throwing out that theory is Tier, who is calling me scum for correctly scumhunting him.

and I'm (possible) town

You're not going to even address the case on you? You're just going to call yourself possible town, say the wagon is unwarranted, and then slink off?

P-edit: And the defense of Tier continues...

[Bulbazak]

This is the way we rev the chainsaw. Rev the chainsaw. Rev the chainsaw.
This is the way we rev the chainsaw.
So early in the Mylo...

[Bulbazak]

Pretty sure cx is actually town here.

How so? I can't see how you can come to this conclusion if you think Tier is mafia.

Yo I think cx is town and I'd rather lynch scum here since otherwise I

have

to shoot scum at night.

I mean, seriously Dry!

I intend on hammering Tier before the day is out, unless someone has something very important to say. After he flips mafia, I expect you guys to lynch Cxin tomorrow.

Unvote

[Bulbazak]

Vote Tiershift

[Bulbazak]

I was really paranoid about Whiskers. I wanted to take my time hammering, because I had no clue what she really was.

[Bulbazak]

I only knew Aj's slot was scum on d1. I was guessing on who else was on the team, and I actually grew paranoid that I was actually voting scum in Emp and tried to find a way off him.

[Bulbazak]

Scum QT

Boop.