Mini 1608--Mafia on the Air(Fin)
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 125, Baboon Pride wrote:Does he?
I have nashville as probtown, atm
Borkdra as maybe town
Lissa and 5-off as probably town
as far as Fonz goes, I don't know a whole lot about him, but atm he looks townish though I need to see a little bit more from him to make anything concrete
FT and flubber are the weirdest for me, and I'm thinking that one (or both) are maybe scum
Everyone else I have no impression on at the moment, and I think that the scum would likely be found among those who have yet to post
This post, too. How does Fonz look town? Or Lissa? Or Nashville?
How do I look weird? I literally only posted a vote and a question -- relatively straight-forward question, too. The positions are too... stancy? If that makes sense.-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
I dunno, man. I'm drunk as fuck.
I didn't see a point to keeping the "intern PM" secret. We know -- or at least one of us was told -- that someone in the PM is scum. So keeping it secret gives the scum an information advantage, as far as I'm concerned. We can probably assume anything said there is going to be told to the mafia in their PM, so keeping just hurts town, if anything. At least that's my view.-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
We weren't told who is in the neighborhood, but someone in there was told that scum was part of it. So, scum could literally just lurk, gain information secretly, and negate any pro-town neighborhood-strategy. I just don't see the point of keeping it secret or harping on it. I'd rather move on and talk about things that matter. Like Baboon's alignment.-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
Uh, not sure what you're talking about. I don't follow any of your reads, period. Nor do I see how your questions and responses carry town motivations.-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 203, Baboon Pride wrote:The reason I had a mild townread on Lissa earlier was because of neighbor things.
This. Lissa's excitement in the neighborhood was genuine.-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
I considered that. Especially if he's town. Still, don't see any reason to trust the neighborhood PM.-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 212, Baboon Pride wrote:In post 205, FourTrouble wrote:
Uh, not sure what you're talking about. I don't follow any of your reads, period. Nor do I see how your questions and responses carry town motivations.
Okay, try asking?
I kinda did. Earlier.-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 234, I have no creativity wrote:In post 227, FourTrouble wrote:I'm ready to watch I have no creativity hang. F-16, help me lynch 'em?
Do you really want to test me?
Tell me who I should lynch instead?-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 239, gossamer wings wrote:In post 227, FourTrouble wrote:I'm ready to watch I have no creativity hang. F-16, help me lynch 'em?
I don't have a read on them yet. Still thinking about it.
~ F-16
Consider: in the past few pages, they've just summarized shit and threatened me.-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 241, I have no creativity wrote:
interactions with 5-off. their convo doesnt look like they are both in neigborhood otherwise it could of been saved for the hood
Very close reading. Very little analysis.-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 252, Baboon Pride wrote:I find your pretending not to know why I was townreading Lissa (while then proceeding to out the neighbors yourself) pretty disingenuous.
Pretending?-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 246, Baboon Pride wrote:Pretty basically, FT is taking some of her thoughts from the neighborhood and presenting them as his own (the bit about possible fifth lurking neighborscum)
I didn't see that in the neighborhood, but if Mara wants credit for that idea, she's welcome to take it. Doesn't really matter. But the idea that I stole her thoughts and presented them as my own is not true. Where's the evidence of that?-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 260, Baboon Pride wrote:In post 257, FourTrouble wrote:In post 252, Baboon Pride wrote:I find your pretending not to know why I was townreading Lissa (while then proceeding to out the neighbors yourself) pretty disingenuous.
Pretending?
...You just agreed with me re: her being a townread...so what could possibly be the issue here...???
-Ceph
Your reasoning was presented after I asked about your read?-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 282, Baboon Pride wrote:In post 263, FourTrouble wrote:In post 246, Baboon Pride wrote:Pretty basically, FT is taking some of her thoughts from the neighborhood and presenting them as his own (the bit about possible fifth lurking neighborscum)
I didn't see that in the neighborhood, but if Mara wants credit for that idea, she's welcome to take it. Doesn't really matter. But the idea that I stole her thoughts and presented them as my own is not true. Where's the evidence of that?
In post 191, FourTrouble wrote:We weren't told who is in the neighborhood, but someone in there was told that scum was part of it. So, scum could literally just lurk, gain information secretly, and negate any pro-town neighborhood-strategy. I just don't see the point of keeping it secret or harping on it. I'd rather move on and talk about things that matter. Like Baboon's alignment.
So... you're assuming I read her thoughts in the neighborhood? Fine. I still haven't read that part of the neighborhood, or I just don't remember reading it. But if you want to believe I "stole" the thoughts, fine. I can accept that. But, where's the evidence that I presented the thoughts as my own? Where did I say, "I came up with this thought"?-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
Tammy, F-16, what do you make of the following:
In post 298, Baboon Pride wrote:and, as much as you are willing to push us for being the probable scum within the neighborhood, you very quickly back down from it, and decide to push someone who, generally is an easier target to get lynched.
I thought I had pushed I have no creativity prior to Baboon. So... I don't think I backed down from anything, did I? Which brings me to this:
In post 298, Baboon Pride wrote:also... the hidden omgus thing... it's legit, and the fact that you were scared to do a legit omgus, and tried to hide it with mashing us with fonz, a couple hours after I make it known that I think you have the potential to be scum is pretty amusing.
I'm scared? Or is that a narrative Baboon is building? I don't see how "fear" is read into my posts/behaviors? Is Baboon's narrative genuine or contrived? The argument that I'm afraid to OMGUS because I went after I have no creativity isn't very well thought out, right?
Also:
In post 298, Baboon Pride wrote:You question my 125 and you yourself, note that you havn't done much, whereas I have made my stances clear early game. Instead of asking people to work with me, I demand it to happen. I grab their attention and push the game forward, on my own voilition. You've done it as a reaction, and only as a reaction. lack of proactivity means a higher chance of you being scum.
Two things. First, I wasn't playing passively, or at least I thought I was active. Comparatively, I'm a lot more active than half the players in the game. I'm also not sure how "asking people to work with me" is passive or scummy? Second, is Baboon's analysis always this mechanical? The "I'm doing X, but you're not doing X, so you're probably scum" argument isn't very good.-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 303, gossamer wings wrote:Did you take the info from off-5 at face value knowing that he has a tendency for gambiting?
I wasn't sure if he was telling the truth. Why?-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
Rereading the game while sober. Still paranoid as hell about Baboon and Fonz. Not sure on I have no creativity. Still find their tone awkward -- especially the summarizing and the threats and understated "trolling" -- but I'm not sure what that means. Inexperienced Townies might, at least arguably, react awkwardly to people interrogating/voting them. Thoughts, anyone?
Honey's post resonates. I hope that guy is town.-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 302, FourTrouble wrote:Baboon, just to clear something up, I never read what you wrote in the neighborhood. But even if I did, so what? Why is that behavior scummy?-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 344, The Fonz wrote:When 5-off said there was scum in the 'hood, did anyone say that their role PM didn't mention anything about that? If so, who did so first?
I said that, though I think someone else said it first. Why do you ask?-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 363, Cutty Shark wrote:In post 355, FourTrouble wrote:Anatole, why is I have no creativity not in your scum pile?
Anything to say to #274?
-b
Good point, though not conclusive. Like I said, I'm reevaluating IHNC, especially given their competence is lower than I initially thought (for some reason, I always assume players in hydras are good, which isn't always the case).-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 365, Cutty Shark wrote:How did you construe FT's vote as random?
I'm curious about this, too. If the vote was random, I would have just added it to the biggest wagon. The vote was not random.-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 370, Cutty Shark wrote:In post 367, FourTrouble wrote:Like I said, I'm reevaluating IHNC
FT wrote:Anatole, why is I have no creativity not in your scum pile?
?
This looks like a leading question with the implication that he should be in said scum pile
-b
I was interested in Anatole's reasoning, since his scum pile consisted of people putting badly-reasoned votes on me, and Anatole's list of people putting badly-reasoned votes on me also included IHNC.
Also, wouldn't call the question leading. Leading would be, "shouldn't IHNC be in your scum pile?" or something like that.-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
Tammy, I understand your concern but it's misplaced. If you think about it, I'd be much more distrustful of 5-off if I were mafia and he town (i.e. I wouldn't trust a word he says about claims/setup). But as town, I didn't really think about whether he was lying as town. I considered the possibility he was scum but that was the extent of my distrust. If you think about it, that's arguably a town-tell on my part.-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 380, Anatole Kuragin wrote:The easy target thing is a salient point.
Just because someone is an easy target -- and apparently that's what I have no creativity is -- doesn't mean pushing the easy target is scummy. How is Baboon's easy target point salient?-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
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In post 240, 5-Off wrote:In post 214, gossamer wings wrote:@ FT, I think it is entirely possible 5-Off is gambiting.
~ F-16 (I'll sign my posts if we're both online to avoid confusion)
F-16, what's the scum benefit to that sort of gambit? Town-cred? You know me well enough to know that I don't care about town-cred as either town or mafia, so there's certainly no personal motivation if that's the case.
Tammy, your recent post made me think of this. I didn't realize this at the time, but from what you just said, F-16 was thinking 5-Off was gambiting as town. But 5-Off interprets F-16's speculation to mean F-16 suspects him. Which suggests 5-Off is reading F-16's post from a non-town perspective.-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 432, gossamer wings wrote:In post 382, FourTrouble wrote:Tammy, I understand your concern but it's misplaced. If you think about it, I'd be much more distrustful of 5-off if I were mafia and he town (i.e. I wouldn't trust a word he says about claims/setup). But as town, I didn't really think about whether he was lying as town. I considered the possibility he was scum but that was the extent of my distrust. If you think about it, that's arguably a town-tell on my part.
Why would you be more distrustful of him as scum than town? Also, are you scumreading him now?
~ F-16
As scum I'd be wary. Defensive. As town, I didn't think about it until later. Initially, I was more paranoid he was scum.-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 450, The Fonz wrote:Also, reason why my vote stayed: throwing out a three-person scumlist, without any effort to prioritise between them, having to be prodded into giving his reasons for his scumlist, and asking Baboon to explain something that he'd clearly worded in such a way as to imply that discussion of it would be anti-town. Oh, and the whole posting to whine about someone who hadn't been online (moi) not answering his question, and flagging up his 'paranoia' - which comes across to me as consciously trying to signal 'town.' Also, like, no consideration of what the actual town motive or potential scum motive for deciding to stick on him rather than wagon a newbie on page two might be, so it looks like an excuse, not a reason.
Fonz, your facts and assumptions are wrong. Here are some issues/questions.
1. I never whined about you not answering my question. I noted that I wanted the question answered but I didn't ever cite your lack of answer thus far as a problem.
2. The question I asked Baboon -- why a certain behavior they called scummy was scummy -- was to get a better grasp on their alignment. The idea was to see how much depth there was to their reasoning. They're saying I plagiarized and therefore I'm scum. I'd expect town to have considered, at least briefly, whether plagiarizing is scummy. The question was to determine whether they considered that. Personally, I don't think plagiarizing is scummy, so I'd like to know how they're connecting that behavior with a higher probability that someone is scum. What's the inferential chain? You said this discussion would be "anti-town," right? How would it be anti-town? Is there some pro-scum effect that outweighs the insight to Baboon's alignment from their answer?
3. You're saying I'm scummy for "saying" I'm paranoid about Baboon and you, right? What would a paranoid townie do? Not saying anything? I don't see how this behavior -- being paranoid and telling others about that paranoia -- is scummy.
4. Initially, I didn't have a problem with your vote on me. It was only AFTER your post about Lissa, and in the CONTEXT of that post, that I took problem with your CONTINUED vote on me. So your "FT isn't considering motives behind my vote for him" is kinda irrelevant. What's relevant is your non-committal stance towards Lissa, while voting me for NO reason.
5. You're saying I'm scummy for providing a scumlist without reasons, right? But didn't you vote for me without proving any reasons? Don't town vote and provide scumlists without reasons all the time? Is there anything inherently scummy about that? What's the problem there?-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
In post 449, Anatole Kuragin wrote:Yeah - I've played with you and mara (and ceph as part of a hydra I think) and know what you guys look like as town from Timeshift. Ironically, in that game Mara was what she is calling FourT scum for - reactive, passive. That caught me off guard and is giving me a gut scum read for that hydra.
VOTE: Baboon Pride
This is dead on. Just skimming through that game, huge difference in Mara's play here.-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
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In post 457, Cutty Shark wrote:This is armchair meta and inherently not accurate, much less sheepable. Qualify this with some examples or I'm dismissing this as confbias. I'd like to hear from both FT and AK on that. I think meta has a place, but I am generally uncomfortable with people just skimming a one game and seeing the answer they want to see and deciding that's good enough. It's not.
I usually don't put much stock in meta either, but here's what stuck out to me just from skimming:
In post 267, Ms Marangal wrote:In post 263, Bane wrote:
Either you're scum or you're the worst townie ever, either way, town can't survive while you
I have proof otherwise, we both do. If you want to get me lynched, I suggest finding actual scum motivation or, at least try to. I'm well aware of how easy it is to latch on to the shinest thing, as scum though!
This is Mara's first post in the game.
This is Mara's second post in the game:
In post 991, Ms Marangal wrote:God, seriously?
W/e, didnt really plan on doing much until jeesh slot got lynched
Which is about 700 posts later. And explicitly says she's not playing proactively.
But you're right, confbias is real, and I'm a terrible meta reader anyway, so definitely not a reason to sheep me. If you're gonna vote Baboon, I'd hope it's for better reasons than this.-
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
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- Posts: 1943
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- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO
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FourTrouble Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Mafia Scum
- Posts: 1943
- Joined: July 19, 2012
- Location: Boulder, CO