Mini 1603 - Air Combat Mafia - Game Over

[Csareo]

Hey guys!
I haven't played a theme game on this site?
How do they work? Is there an objective site theory?
Usually I start theme games by soft claiming, but I'm not sure if you people play the same.

[Csareo]

VOTE: Csareo

Wow, I didn't even have to try to end RVS this time!

I don't believe in RVS either.
Can you please tell me how theme games work here?
I'm left a little clueless, as my only theme games have been on other sites.

[Csareo]

Holy shit, where to start. 7 pages already?
There appears to be a circle of "mattp, anatole, and farside" who are just grasing for straws for some kind of scum tell.
Mattp definitely set off alarms with his voting. I mean, seriously?
Anatole appears to be joking more than he is scum hunting.
I think farside seems townish.
Flubber is an idiot. Trust me, I've reviewed his games. His meta will constantly insult people and buddy with everyone who he's not insulting.
Mykrno your read is null ATM.
Reckoner you are null ATM.
Everyone else is null.

[Csareo]

Try to keep the game going at a normal pace. I could only extract so much from the last 7 pages.

[Csareo]

Can you rephrase that?

[Csareo]

I reread the last two pages. I think mykrnyo'a is town.

[Csareo]

A better phrase would of been "my brain can only hold so much".
Although a lot of it was grabbing at straws speculation.

[Csareo]

Look up guys

There is a dumbass in our midst, and he's here to troll
I would not mind policy lynching this asshole. He'll say stupid shit that will get him scum read and we'll spend 5 pages arguing about whether that is just his meta.
I can confirm that flubber's meta is to act like a douchebag.

[Csareo]

@Farside, what is a null tell? Is that even possible?

[Csareo]

@Anatole, how come you have 47 posts compared to farside and mattP's 28?
You're cluttering this forum.

[Csareo]

Look up guys

There is a dumbass in our midst, and he's here to troll
I would not mind policy lynching this asshole. He'll say stupid shit that will get him scum read and we'll spend 5 pages arguing about whether that is just his meta.
I can confirm that flubber's meta is to act like a douchebag.

VOTE: carstereo

It is page 8. We aren't in RVS anymore.
Where's your vote justification?

[Csareo]

Note, anatole has voted for me without justification (on page 8) and refused to have answered my question.
Vote was provocation through intentional misspelling of my name.

I hope you are reaction testing, because if you aren't, then my scum read is through the roof.

[Csareo]

Nothing random about that vote and you know it.

Then give your justification.

[Csareo]

You have 5 minutes to give me your justification.
Odd how you disappear like that.

[Csareo]

The unfortunate thing is that this really isn't a scum read on him. -__-

Come again nefarious troll?

[Csareo]

VOTE: anatole
I warned him that I needed a vote justification.
He'll need a very good story to convince me why he could quickly go post in the other forum, but ignore me here.

[Csareo]

Can we double-policy-lynch Flubbernugget and Csareo? Pleeeeeeeeease?

Why? Is this the only thing you've said in these 8 pages?
I have about 14 posts and you're already going for a policy lynch?

[Csareo]

You answered the first question with the second question (and all your other posts).

Don't ive me that bullshit. Everyone knows that "policy lynch" talk is "scum convincing townies to lynch townies" talk

[Csareo]

Csareo is shown as having three votes but you have two listed.

I noticed that as well. It could be a role thing rather than a mod error.

[Csareo]

I haven't been replaced? Thank god.
I was gone for 5 days, so I need to catch up.

[Csareo]

I haven't been replaced? Thank god.
I was gone for 5 days, so I need to catch up.

You got replaced out of Vengeball, what happened?

*Can't talk about current games*
Without going into details, I was separated from my HP laptop for 5 days.

[Csareo]

I read all of expresso's games. I think he is in a solid town meta.
Besides that, I am town reading farside.
Anatole fits my old town meta to the number, and his plays seem to be an eager scum hunter making a few seemingly slips.
Reckoner, I'm not sure, but he is spending to much time defending himself. Haven't seen anyone defend him, so that is a good sign.

[Csareo]

I read all of expresso's games. I think he is in a solid town meta.
Besides that, I am town reading farside.
Anatole fits my old town meta to the number, and his plays seem to be an eager scum hunter making a few seemingly slips.
Reckoner, I'm not sure, but he is spending to much time defending himself. Haven't seen anyone defend him, so that is a good sign.

How is Anatole being an eager scum hunter town?

He seems to be genuinely scum hunting. Time will tell if he is good at it or not, but his post count rings town.

[Csareo]

Anatole is quite annoying btw

[Csareo]

I am worried about lynching him. He's annoying, but not enough to policy lynch.
Having strong feelings that people are using his aggravating personality as grounds for a lynch.
Not completely convinced at this point.

[Csareo]

Is it possible that anatole is a jester (the guys who win by being lynched)???

[Csareo]

   

During vengeballs. Can't go into details.

[Csareo]

There appears to be a circle of "mattp, anatole, and farside" who are just grasing for straws for some kind of scum tell.

Still hasn't explained this EVER

I believe I did. Review my ISO.
Pretty sure it is self explanatory as well.

[Csareo]

Having trouble forming scum reads this game. 24 pages in and I still don't believe any meaningful scum tells have been uncovered.

[Csareo]

Good, csareo, you are here.

Regarding flubby, I don't think I get him. His play is erratic. Csareo, by chance, would you still have a link to the place where you know flubber from?

Two ongoing games.

[Csareo]

I have to keep rereading the game, because I'm suffering from bad memory.
Unsure if I'll replace out, but this combined with my insomnia may make it hard to read through again.

[Csareo]

Anatole is town for me solely because of meta.
I used to get lynched a lot for being an annoying asshole (flubber).

[Csareo]

I think we should go forward with a policy lynch.
Perhaps an inactive or problematic player.

[Csareo]

Tso: do you think Anatole is scum? If so why?

I don't know yet because I don't know his scum meta and I'm wondering if there's anyone here with experience of it.

Can't you read back through his ISO?
@Anatole - What games have you been scum in?

[Csareo]

I don't know if Csareo's vote on me is any more scummy than Espresso's bullshit "reaction test" into "I think you may be a power role..", "HAHA I WAS WRONG YOU ARE TOTALLY SCUM LOOK AT YOU FLAIL!" after I make one comment about his case being dumb, into completely avoiding my asking him for reads which he said he would post "tomorrow" two days ago.

And reck, your voting with espresso is even dumber than the dumb vote from farside you're referring to. Like, his case is that I have been trying to push every little thing I could, but I didn't even vote him after his horrendous series of "please play the game for me" posts. So how does that even follow?

I have a vote on you?
UNVOTE: anatole
Can someone help me out here? I'm weary of letting scum tells slide do to meta reads.
Where should you draw the line?

[Csareo]

I've read everything.

Scum reads: espresso, carstereo and farside
Town reads: reck, mikonyan

The rest are different shades of null.

I'll

vote carstereo

Thank you for confirming my scum read.

A newb. You vote the newb.
Prey tell mr. I do nothing but sometimes I do why the person your voting reads scummy.

In his defense, this is his meta.

[Csareo]

VOTE: anatole
I warned him that I needed a vote justification.
He'll need a very good story to convince me why he could quickly go post in the other forum, but ignore me here.

but I didn't even give you a good story

I think I said this earlier, but I was gone for 5 days do to light brain damage

[Csareo]

FOS on vezokpiraka for sheeping and the sudden vote switch.
"Chill out". A policy lynch is a scum lynch, especially when you have THREE scum reads already.

[Csareo]

Vez may be protecting reckoner. Seems like noob scum.

[Csareo]

Mattp, what is your case on expresso?
I'm not feeling it at all.

[Csareo]

Hello. I'm reading the thread. It will take me a while.
Also, sorry reck. I didn't check the playerlist.

I've read everything.

Scum reads: espresso, carstereo and farside
Town reads: reck, mikonyan

The rest are different shades of null.

I'll

vote carstereo

vezok can you expand on your carstereo thoughts?

Yes I can, but it's only phone posting so it might takr a while.

I think the list is weird because, as has been mentioned, Reck isn't playing like town Reck.

I've seen things I expect frpm towm reck ergo I read him as town.
I don't even understand how you can say this isn't town reck. How many games did you play with him?

vote farside

Take a chill pill. Don't get stressed.

Also talking about fake. That farside rage was incredibly fake.

Should we lynch "reckoner" or "Vez" first?

[Csareo]

I've read everything.

Scum reads: espresso, carstereo and farside
Town reads: reck, mikonyan

The rest are different shades of null.

I'll

vote carstereo

Please give justifications for this.

[Csareo]

Ugh vezok is town. Okay.

Ugh vezok is town. Okay.

Please show meta why this is town vezo.

When you've played enough games with vezok, you can just get a feeling from the way he formats a post. It's weird. I can't think of any specific meta, it's more of a gut/unspoken meta tell.

Talking to vezok is like learning to speak another language.

Also, I kinda agree with his reads list and I don't think it was the easy way out like you do... both myself & myko have had suspicion thrown our way during the day, yet he reads us as town... you and Espresso are pretty ballsy scum reads... it just seems genuine, not sheepy.

Also Anatole pointed out ONE out of the FOUR posts that vezok quoted, so I'm not sure what you mean by he pointed out most of those posts.

Hmm. farside's reaction here is weird.

> vezok calls her scum
> I say vezok's reads seem genuine/not faked
> farside votes me

This seems like she's preempting a wagon on her by trying to paint me as scummy for something that isn't actually scummy.

My questioning of vezok on Csareo leads to me agreeing with the posts pointed out... farside says that it's fake, because:
"If it was that good reck would have sheeped pages ago"

Okay... so then there's a couple options here:
1) I, as scum, read Anatole's case and didn't agree with it

strategically

(why?) but then

strategically

agreed with vezok's case when he already had a town read on me (why?)
2) I, as either alignment, skimmed/didn't read Anatole's case and then agreed with vezok when I actually saw the posts in question.

One of them makes literally no sense and has no scum motivation behind it, the other is null. farside's vote here is very weak.

[Csareo]

My scum reads are
- vez
- reckoner
- MattP (null lean)
Mostly for buddying and suspicious behavior from reckoner.
We have a cold case of "defending over hunting".
Another tip off was your read list and vote switching, which made me think for awhile.
Expresso and anatole seemed like easy policy lynch targets, so it looked like you're sheeping.

Reckoner also seemed to back your reads, which was slightly suspicious.
Can you give justifications for your reads now, since I just did upon your request.
Let's not forget, I never voted you....

[Csareo]

Well I ecplained my read on you.

Can you show specific posts for your reads?

[Csareo]

Can we lynch one of the two? We have three days left, and breaking in half the reckoner/vez/mattp buddy relaitionship will reveal a lot about alliances.

[Csareo]

If you're town farside it sucks that I've lost you to the dark side (that is Csareo's brain)

It isn't illogical brother. There is a three way going on, and it involves you, reckoner, and vez.
Lynching one of the three makes it easier to town read the other two.

[Csareo]

^That, coupled with two more reasons...
1. Your expresso reasoning is weak. You three keep jumping between the easiest of policy lynches.
2. My strongest reads are on you three.

[Csareo]

So I'm going to commit to a vote, and I'm pretty dead set behind this one.
VOTE: Vez

[Csareo]

weren't we going to kill ^ at some point

I wasn't aware of any danger on my mafiascum life
There was a weak wagon, with weak reasoning, but that's about it.

[Csareo]

[quote="In post 755, xRECKONERx"][/quote]
Ki-Gi? He got saved by a replacement.

[Csareo]

Reck is usually this reactive, right?

Damn, either you or mattp is scum.
These alliances are damn suspicious.

[Csareo]

Inactivity is killing this game.

[Csareo]

And the two blocs form. I am confident in my vezok lynch, but am being open minded here. I see these opposing fronts coming into action, and I really want to break one of them apart.
One of these blocs has several scum reads, so can we start there??

[Csareo]

And the two blocs form. I am confident in my vezok lynch, but am being open minded here. I see these opposing fronts coming into action, and I really want to break one of them apart.
One of these blocs has several scum reads, so can we start there??

Can you literally just close down your browser and walk away

Okay, now here is why I keep scum reading you.
Hostility is the first maxim of a scum player.

When thou can not debunk, insult

[Csareo]

Mattp, what is wrong with my post? Nothing I said is controversial.
Legitimacy sniping is anti-town.

[Csareo]

Mattp, what is wrong with my post? Nothing I said is controversial.
Legitimacy sniping is anti-town.

[Csareo]

Unless you seriously believe that on Day 1 of the game all of the scum would create a bloc and vote and speak together, which would never happen ever

Blocs form day one. It has happened every time throughout mafia history.
I never said the other bloc was solely scum either, as their are 4 people on it.

[Csareo]

Why antagonize at all? Hostility is scummy, get that straight.

[Csareo]

You strawmanned me saying "scum bloc". There are two blocs. Not an opinion, but a fact.

[Csareo]

Acting like a dick,makes you a dick.
Good day dick.

[Csareo]

You are not attacking farside, because she has earned legitimacy for herself. If you are hostile to her, it will backfire (assuring you're scum)
I am looked at as a noob player. A scum player see's that, and will continue to make baseless, and over exaggerated insults to destroy any credibility that noob player has.
Smart townies would see that.

[Csareo]

You strawmanned me saying "scum bloc". There are two blocs. Not an opinion, but a fact.

You said that vezok, reck, and probably me are scum. You think you and farside is town. Those are the loudest people on each bloc. You clearly believe that the major proponent of one bloc is the entire scumteam. Am I missing something here?

Another straw man. I scum read you. That does not mean any of you are scum.
Please read before you start spewing this garbage at me.

[Csareo]

Now calm the fuck down and stop getting so over excited about a two sentence post.

[Csareo]

I haven't played bad, because I haven't had a chance to play yet.
Half my posts have been prod dodges, as I try to reread this game again and again.

[Csareo]

You are not attacking farside, because she has earned legitimacy for herself. If you are hostile to her, it will backfire (assuring you're scum)
I am looked at as a noob player. A scum player see's that, and will continue to make baseless, and over exaggerated insults to destroy any credibility that noob player has.
Smart townies would see that.

Funny, because Vezok and Reck are attacking farside and the only people it's "backfired" with are you and farside. So that's not true.

You are looked at as a noob player because of your actions. Ego buffering etc etc

How did it backfire?

[Csareo]

That does not mean any of you are scum.

That doesn't at all change my argument?

You made a straw man that the other bloc was scum.
Your argument was based on a false premise.

[Csareo]

You posting is anti-town, Csareo, though, so maybe 2 posts/day.

One second. If Mattp answers my question, I think it will lead somewhere.

[Csareo]

I can't connect the interaction I just saw.
The reaction from Mattp to that post was simply to over exaggerated and crazy to be true.
Even if it was a stupid post, which it was not, the fact that mattp staged an acted and fake performance of being a "rabid jackass" was neither amusing or town.

[Csareo]

Another straw man. I scum read you. That does not mean any of you are scum.

This has got to be sigged.

Are you saying scum reads are absolute assurities of them being scum?

[Csareo]

Yeah, I'm not continuing this conversation.
I want one question answered though.

You are not attacking farside, because she has earned legitimacy for herself. If you are hostile to her, it will backfire (assuring you're scum)
I am looked at as a noob player. A scum player see's that, and will continue to make baseless, and over exaggerated insults to destroy any credibility that noob player has.
Smart townies would see that.

Funny, because Vezok and Reck are attacking farside and the only people it's "backfired" with are you and farside. So that's not true.

You are looked at as a noob player because of your actions. Ego buffering etc etc

How did it backfire?

[Csareo]

Are you saying scum reads are absolute assurities of them being scum?

Are you saying when you scumread people

you're not calling them scum

!?

I can't do it guys. I'm out. Godspeed.

A scum read implies that the person looks scum at the moment.
If all scum reads were correct, then that would be a phenomenon.

[Csareo]

I agree with Oman. Stop raising your blood pressure over a forum game.

[Csareo]

Csareo,

you

are the true phenomenon here.

What do you expect to gain from this post?

[Csareo]

I was being sarcastic. I just explained that. That is why it was in "quotes"

I said "I am not attacking farside even though she is antagonizing me because I respect her approach to the game"

You said "You are not attacking farside, because she has earned legitimacy for herself. If you are hostile to her, it will backfire (assuring you're scum)"

I effectively then said "That's not true, people (aka Reck and Vezok) HAVE antagonized farside and it hasn't backfired"

Okay, sorry.
Now............... back to the game please.

Nothing good came out of that conversation to begin with.

[Csareo]

I agree with Oman. Stop raising your blood pressure over a forum game.

You've cussed at me multiple times

???

Sorry.
Does that help?

[Csareo]

I just want you to focus more on developing reads and less on the blocs that exist. Blocs are useful when they're all-town, and that's it. If you think there are scum in the two blocs then you should be focusing on getting town together, not on Us vs. Them.

Okay, that's good advice. I'm focusing my attention everywhere.

[Csareo]

VOTE: vez

[Csareo]

I think killing expresso was the right call from a moderation standpoint

[Csareo]

Why the hell would they kill an inactive player is what I'm wondering?

[Csareo]

First rule of mafia: No question is stupid.
Speculate everything, ignore nothing

[Csareo]

Because they didn't feel any need to change the gamestate.

Good point. If I were to have a scum perspective, there is a lot of two sided conflict going on that is only beneficial.

[Csareo]

Everyone e town read farside yesterday, and now we're trying to lynch her?

[Csareo]

Active scum vs inactive town.
Seriously, this is just annoying, and not even fun.
The players who most need to be online and posting, do nothing.

Honestly, the vez lynch seems so braindead obvious, yet there isd a complete ignorance to everything he has done.
Just going to say, there's a reason for that.

[Csareo]

TSO seems town farside, but after seeing his performance in 1601 mini normal, I'm not so sure of his meta.
We can start a pressure wagon later, or see if time has anything to tell, but right now we need to focus on lynching the confirmed scum, vezo

[Csareo]

I'm v tempted to just count that as a scum win given not one player actually objected to the statement it would have been a guaranteed scumwin.

still p disappointing though.

Considering scum had been lynchied D1, I wouldn't be so sure it was a "scum win"
I would of never guessed you were scum though, and to be honest, that scares me.

[Csareo]

Vezo's vote switch is just another of his million scum tells.
Anatole is just giving excuse's to prolong his scummy death.

[Csareo]

@Anatole, I was being facetious

[Csareo]

I also love when people randomly find post X and claim it is a slip
Most things people accuse of being scum tells are honestly not.

[Csareo]

is anyone who is not voting you scum?

I've been scum reading matt for a long time now. Since mid day one.

[Csareo]

Sorry, I don't have anything meaningful to say today, and have been pretty busy.
Appears to be a steady case on vezok, but opposition coming from the other side.

To be honest, I think the case on me may be scum motivated (weakest one I've ever seen at D2), as a way to protect vezok.

[Csareo]

I may get around to writing the full case tomorrow. Seems like there will be a stalemate until then.
In the meantime, can we please get more more activity into this game?

[Csareo]

Okay, time to destroy the excuse, that is the csareo wagon.

1. I was joking with flubber, we really hate each other
2. Policy lynches ARE scum motivated, most of the time (early game/late game)
3. Is a contradiction literally the only thing you guy's have on me?

[Csareo]

I wasn't serious about a flubber lynch either. Sarcasm went undetected apparently.

[Csareo]

I believe my scum record is 3-1, and my town record 2-5, so I kind of agree with TSO.
I play pretty shitty as town, and get way more involved into games where I'm scum.
If I have a low post count, or what i say is
1. Confusing
2. Bad
I'm most likely with the town. I'll let you guy's be the judge, but let's not spend long delaying the vezo wagon.

[Csareo]

Scum usually see me as an easy policy lynch, also

[Csareo]

I'm not pissed because we aren't lynching vezo. I'm pissed that we aren't lynching vezo do to a small and miniscule case that's on me instead.
It can hardly stand on its own, yet three people are justifying their votes on this BS.

[Csareo]

I am 99% certain mafiassk just hammered him.

[Csareo]

nvm, he's at L-2

[Csareo]

I feel like scum is going to bus, JMHO

[Csareo]

TSO, are you seriously jumping off the wagon at this point?
Anyways, I am suspicious of SSK's vote flip to Vezo.
If I was scum, I would see the wagon as opportunistic (assuming vezo is not scum).
Since I AM reading Vezo as scum, I can't reason both ways.

[Csareo]

VOTE: MafiaSSK

[Csareo]

Actually
UNVOTE: mafiassk
VOTE: TSO
I'm really suspicious of his intentions this game.
He seemed to manafacture an SSK wagon on D2, while also finishing the Vezokrika lynch.
Since Mafiassk joined the vezo wagon early, it isn't likely Mafiassk was bussing (which is confirmed now), meaning that TSO's vote was incompatible with his scum read on Mafiassk.

Something I'm not buying into. I also am suspicious of him constantly calling me town.
I have this gut feeling that if I were scum, I would want to keep the VI around to mislynch later into the game.

[Csareo]

Things seem to fishy for the outcomes to be accidentally consistent.
I don't like lynching based on speculative cases, but everything TSO has done, direct or indirect, I can envision scum doing.
How can you scum read Mafiassk, who joins the Vezo wagon early, while also keeping your vote on Vezo? If I were scum, I would have a safety net for the next phase, where I can push for a bus on Mafiassk.

Everything points towards a manafactured and thought out lynch for D3.
Also, not to make a big deal about this, but opening the game by complaining how bad the previous day went, is a reoccurring scum tell.

[Csareo]

To be honest, there wasn't much reasoning behind the SSK vote.
I simply voted him to start out the day, since he was a minor scum read (ATT, my only scum read).

[Csareo]

I don't see how farside is scum.
I think TSO's reactions are fake and acted out, but I sympathize, because I'm raging in another game.
TSO, what was your night action history? What's your PR?

I smell a rat.

[Csareo]

Why would TSO claim NOW he knows mafiassk is confirmed scum?

[Csareo]

Probably town. Liked his reactions to the end of day y/day with the vezok lynch. Seemed genuinely frustrated.

I thought the opposite, but there's no real way to know if he faked it or not.
I wouldn't consider it as serious evidence he's either allegiance.

[Csareo]

TSO hasn't even told us what his PR is. Scum 101.
Sounds like he's trying to justify a wagon without actually risking being CC'd.

[Csareo]

There's no reason for scum to be desperate enough to fake claim at this point considering how shit we have played, tbh

He didn't claim. That's the thing.
There is nothing legit about the way this went down.

[Csareo]

There's no reason for scum to be desperate enough to fake claim at this point considering how shit we have played, tbh

This^

I'm looking for a few response before I vote.

You know better than this. Scum fake PR's more than anyone else, and it's to get a basis for lynches.

[Csareo]

Sounds like he's trying to justify a wagon without actually risking being CC'd.

His partner lives, and he can still justify his existence.
Especially since we are lylo after this.

This was the strategy of my first mafia game, one I was scum in.

[Csareo]

I'm pretty sure scum wins if we mislynch.
We kill a townie today, another is NK'd, and a mafia can die tommorow and still win with the final NK.

Dependent on TSO not being a good that is. Even then, scum would only need to finish one more town lynch.

[Csareo]

*a goon

[Csareo]

That's dependent on TSO being lynched tommorow, which isn't even for sure. TSO also has a reputation forstarting wagons on scumbuddies and playing out the rest of the game.
He did it in BE's 1601, starting the wagon on his scum buddy.

There are a million possibilities, none of which discredit the evidence we have to believe TSO is lying.

[Csareo]

Sorry, above is a reply to farside

[Csareo]

csareo, you are posting sense here. Can you explain to me why farside is full on defending tso here?

I have no idea. Farside's defense is unusual, because it is also very reactionary.
Which is why I doubt it is do to a solid town read on TSO.

I can only justify such reactionary posts, if farside were to have confirmed TSO in the night. Also unlikely.

[Csareo]

Not even an FOS on farside. I think he's town.
If TSO flips scum, then I would point out the early buddying in late D1 + early D2.

[Csareo]

I'm sure there's no resistance in TSO full claiming. With results.
How much would you wager on "town, town, scum"?

[Csareo]

Evidence- His unusual way of claiming, buddying, leading a town lynch, ect.
Probably used the wrong word to describe my suspicions.

[Csareo]

Funny thing, scum usually (not always) say they need to ask the mod about their role.
Didn't catch that. If it is a standard investigative role, I highly doubt the mod would need to be questioned.

Given Oman's inactivity........ TSO needs to claim as soon as he comes on.

[Csareo]

I'm definitely not a fan of TSO not claiming.
There is no way to discover his role from what he's said either.

[Csareo]

Vote the fuck out of SSK, or vote the fuck out of me. It won't be my fault if you fuck it up - which is sadly what I expect.

Appeal to emotion? Just claim.

[Csareo]

He soft claims investigative power role, but refuses to spill it out.
Bullshit. Why are we wagoning Mafiassk, while ignoring the elephant in the roof.

For hell's sake, mafiassk lurks in everygame he's ever played in. Read his wiki page.

[Csareo]

Well, it isn't obvious to me. If it's so obvious, then there is no reason why he shouldn't tell us.
Is he afraid of being CC'd? Reckoner, I would just love to know what you think it is.

[Csareo]

Anatole, you seemed sure there were three scum earlier.
Why?

[Csareo]

Irrelevant bargaining. There HAS to be a term for these things.
Closing in on ATE, but not quite there yet.

Saying your town doesn't actually make us believe you're town.

[Csareo]

Can you give me one good reason why TSO shouldn't claim?

[Csareo]

And I'm not buying that there is a connection between me and Mafiassk.
Apparently pushing a different wagon makes me his scumbuddy?

Can someone PLEASE explain the logic in that statement.

[Csareo]

I was pretty comfortable being in a town bloc with farside and tso yesterday.
Fortunately, mafia has a way of making things *click* later into the game.

There is a lot of blind resistance to a TSO lynch. Reckoner and mattp have jumped in many times, offering no logic but a childish "you're stupid blah blah"

[Csareo]

Why the hell wont you claim.
You say you have confscum, yet refuse to back up that claim.
If you're town, you'll be NK'd tonight, so there no reason why you shouldn't share now.

If you aren't killed tonight, after CLAIMING a PR, I'll be amazed. Unfortunately that gives you a chance to NK another one of us, doesn't it?

[Csareo]

He claims a PR when there is a suspected 3 scum alive. It is D3, and his PR gave him a conf read on mafiassk.
If he is town, he WILL die tonight. Why the hell wouldn't he full claim?

I'll tell you why. He's afraid of being CC'd.

[Csareo]

If you're town, and not voting TSO, you're an idiot.
You just are. Never has a more evident scum slip been seen in my two years of playing, and I am hit with a stonewall of ignorance.

[Csareo]

And I'm not buying that there is a connection between me and Mafiassk.
Apparently pushing a different wagon makes me his scumbuddy?

Can someone PLEASE explain the logic in that statement.

I don't think your scum.
I also wonder why SSK doesn't come in and say anything, but then again he's not a prolific poster.
Also with 12 player starting there is typically 3 scum.
I've never seen 4 scum but I've seen 2 in a 12 player game.

If let's say tso is bussing, one scum still down. If SSK is town tso should be lynched. I just don't see the downfall

I don't even think he's bussing. This is what a mafia play would look like.
- Fake claim PR, conf scum read on mafiassk
- maffiassk gets lynched
- NK a town player
- TSO may die tommorow (dependent on whether or not he slimes his way out of it)
- NK townie
- Remaining scum push a mislynch
- Game over, mafia wins.

[Csareo]

And not every scum play is a good one, let's get that straight.
Stop looking at the logic of scum, and focus on the logic of town.
Why the hell would a townie claim a PR, and refuse to elaborate, full knowing that he'll be NK'd when his conf read is lynched?

[Csareo]

Look, I'm not going to go into detail, but there are other reasons I'm suspicious of TSO's soft claim.
Which is why he really needs to full claim (even without the additional information, the logic is still prevalent)

[Csareo]

are you soft claiming to help condemn someone who is soft claiming

The information has nothing to do with my role PM.

[Csareo]

Anatole, it's very very clear what SPECIFIC role TSO is, at least to me. Why does he need to spell it out if there is some apparent grey area and there's no need to have scum be informed

Maybe to have town informed. I'm calling out a mountain of bullshit.

[Csareo]

Let's make something crystal clear. If TSO is town, then he is going to die tonight. He is going, to die tonight.
Just say the fucking power role. I am calling bullshit. So much bullshit.

[Csareo]

There is absolutely no information besides "ssk is confscum" that indicates what your PR is.

[Csareo]

The ignorance. The all prevailing ignorance.
I'm certain the logic is only being denied, because it's falling on scum ears.

[Csareo]

It doesn't matter what his role is. What's important is whether or not he's lying about it.
Which is why he need's to be checked and possibly CC'd.

[Csareo]

Mattp, if you're scum, I will understand the shit being spewed out of your mouth. Only then would it make sense.

[Csareo]

And you ignored ALL my questions to you.
How does pushing an alternate wagon allign me as mafiassk's scumbuddy?

[Csareo]

Anatole, please vote until he claims.

[Csareo]

if you were an equal threat you would have information worth sharing by day 3

That's entirely unrelated

Supposing MafiaSSK is scum then I correctly targeted last night. A follower is fairly useless with three scum, especially if two are goons. As the scum dwindle my role becomes more significant as scum have less avenues of who shall kill. TSO's role equally becomes more significant.

It all seems to convenient to be true...
Save your scumbuddy, tell him to full claim.

[Csareo]

what does it matter caesar?

Its become clear by now he wont claim unless pressured to do so.

[Csareo]

And you know his N1 target how? How come you know everything about his role PM and actions?
Mason?

[Csareo]

There is no reason to believe this charade between mattp and TSO, who has still yet to claim.
Why is he outting results to a PR he wont even share?

[Csareo]

Succumbing to insults. I'm not embarrased.
Just frustrated that there are no active townies to see through the mountain of bullshit before me.
If you're town, you really need to spell it out for me, because it all makes no fucking sense.

[Csareo]

MAYBE, you wont be lynched if no one CC's you. With three scum alive, they will take the risk of NK'ing you anyways.
A tracker with 11 people to choose from, is not very intimidating.

[Csareo]

Is anyone a cop? Mattp, show me the game.

[Csareo]

TSO soft claimed a PR. He will be NK'd.
You argued that a tracker will intimidate them into not night killing.
With 11 players, that isn't likely.

If TSO is town, which isn't very likely, he is going to be killed........tonight.

[Csareo]

Just show me the game where DSB is scum. Tell me the name if you have to.
That's all I require.

[Csareo]

They aren't going to lynch a tracker over an investigative role.
TSO's role, from what I gathered, isn't like DGB's role, as it is used nightly.
Are you saying he's a role cop?

[Csareo]

Because TSO fucked up and you're covering his ass now.
I literally, can not fathom another explanation for this ignorance.

[Csareo]

That conclusion was reached with a broken premise.
And don't talk like you are scum, as it makes me wonder if YOU ARE scum.

[Csareo]

TSO, I think you are scum who made an amatuer move, and mattp is covering your ass. That is all there is to say.
Obviously you and mattp will keep denying it. Hopefully town will see through the scumminess, but that is yet to be discovered.

[Csareo]

And let's all calm down. Yeah, it's okay to swear, but if you're genuinely getting angry over a game, then your a bad sportsman.
Which is the thing. I think your "rages" are astoundingly fake.

[Csareo]

*you're

[Csareo]

A no kill can be explained by millions of possibilities.
I'm not going to blindly speculate that yours is the only one.
NTM your defense relies on it being the only one.

[Csareo]

You might not be scum. You could just be ignorant.
What's for sure, is that TSO soft claimed a PR, and refuses to elaborate on what it is.
Yet he wants us to blindly kill mafiassk, on D3, based solely on lurking.

Is that a reason to claim, or does the fact he's going to be NK'd if he's town make more sense to you?

[Csareo]

A no kill can happen by----------- a goon not choosing to kill anyone.

[Csareo]

It has nothing to do with TSO being scummy or not.
What matters is that he made a very suspicious claim, that can reveal magnitudes of information.
Are you, or are you not, a role cop?

[Csareo]

I don't know why a kill didn't happen. Frankly, it doesn't matter, as you claiming is vital even if I were to be town reading you.
My guess, is that mafia thought an ssk lynch was more acheivable if all players were left alive.
Not killing a player isn't very special, and is done a lot to confuse town.

Leaving players alive is sometimes better than killing them. I myself, was never a fan of night killing. Several times outright refusing to do it.

[Csareo]

A roleblocker wouldn't confscum.
If he is a roleblocker, that's a mafia role.
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Roleblocker

[Csareo]

Why didn't another player night kill. I am open to the idea of there being two mafia, but you also seemed sure mafiassk was scum yesterday.

[Csareo]

If mafia were played solely on "what makes sense", town would lose everytime.
Mafia pushes a lot of things which don't make sense.
I still want you to full claim. There is no reason not to at this point.

[Csareo]

Roleblocker is a common mafia role.
I've never seen one as town. The town alternative is a jailkeeper.

[Csareo]

I want him to FC his role PM.
Do that, and I'll lay off for awhile.

[Csareo]

I know there is at least one investigative role (in a 15 player game)
Please look at TSO tonight.
Let's say you are a jailkeeper. You locking mafiassk doesn't confirm him as scum, does it?

[Csareo]

First off, there is no reason to believe the three people "screaming" at me are correct, or telling the truth.
I'm willing to believe for now you're a jailkeeper (although it's far from confirmed). How is mafiassk confirmed through a jailkeep.
It seems like that could be the reason, but so do a million other things.

[Csareo]

I understood it a long time ago. I'm just wondering how it confirmed him as scum.
That would be contingent on him....
1. Being the only goon
2. The goon to use the night kill
3. A goon
4. Scum

I am not willing to lynch him solely based on that information. At least not until he comes online
UNVOTE: TSO/unvote]

[Csareo]

UNVOTE: TSO
Please CC him if there is another JK

[Csareo]

There is still no confirmation that you're even a jailkeeper.
Besides Mattp conveniently having tracked you.

[Csareo]

I almost forgot
5. TSO is a jailkeeper
6. TSO jailkeeped ssk

[Csareo]

All reckoner does is vomit trash. How about you actually play instead of trying to start flame wars.
The only thing that keeps you from being banned, is that no one gives two shits when you insult them.

I'm skeptical to a mafiassk lynch, I never said I wasn't open to one. And I do believe a lurker would be the first to activate the NK.

[Csareo]

And I'm scum reading him for trying to assemble in a town bloc, without any actual scum hunting but agreeing with you guy's
VOTE: mafiassk
I hope you're right.

[Csareo]

Its actually you who needs to review their play.
You handled that soft claim

completely wrong

. The only reason you probably weren't lynched, is because Mattp outted you as a jailkeeper.
TBH, I don't even know

why

you soft claimed like that. Were you expecting a positive outcome?

[Csareo]

If I wasn't the one to push a justifably suspicious claim, it would of been someone else.
Likely anatole and mykonian. Soft claiming in that manner was the complete opposite way you should of handled it.
You shouldn't of said anything to begin with, because if you are being honest, you're going to be NK'd.

And for what, so people could bitch at you three pages because you made the scummiest soft claim ever?

[Csareo]

And having Reckoner repeat what you say in aggresive caps font doesn't legitimize it.
Actually scum reading him for that. And I understand the "fake" raging farside was referring to earlier.

[Csareo]

Accept responsibility. My actions were a result of your soft claim.
I was not alone in my suspicions (which still exist), so don't pretend I was either.

[Csareo]

We didn't hammer him, although it wouldn't be a bad thing if we did. I want this day to end, badly.

[Csareo]

There are two possibilities. One Unlikely and another very much likely
1. TSO and Reckoner hardbussed Mafiassk
or the more likely scenario
2. Anatole and Mykonian were circle jerking with me yesterday to save Mafiassk from being lynched.

I got to say, if that was a hardbus, it was pretty elaborate. Then again, mattp dying was just a little to convenient.
I mean, the fact that Mattp died, a town tracker, completely validates TSO's case, and would lead to unquestioned lynches of me and the two asking him to full claim yesterday.
What's even odder is that mafiassk offered no resistance in our debate to lynch him.

[Csareo]

Again, I'm looking at either a reckoner lynch or anatole lynch.
My gut is telling me that was a hardbus, so I'm sticking with anatole
I honestly felt like I was being puppeted by Anatole and Mykonian yesterday, and I don't like that feeling.

[Csareo]

VOTE: Anatole

[Csareo]

Again, I'm looking at either a reckoner lynch or anatole lynch.
My gut is telling me that was a hardbus, so I'm sticking with anatole
I honestly felt like I was being puppeted by Anatole and Mykonian yesterday, and I don't like that feeling.

What was a hard bus? Which part of me *almost* helping to lynch him looks like a hard bus?

I wasn't talking about you (TSO and Reckoner)

[Csareo]

I think scum is myko and Anatole. Obviously there were only three people associating themselves with mafiassk, so that's the only thing which makes sense.

[Csareo]

SSK is either a partner to anatole or mykonian.
Originally I was convinced they were both scum, and myko was throwing anatole under the bus to be town read, but now I'm reconsidering.

[Csareo]

let's go dead csareo let's go

It's only funny until the flip.

[Csareo]

My theory is the same. Myko and Anatole are scum, if and only if reckoner and TSO weren't hardbussing mafiassk.
Based purely on physical non associative tells, I'm scum reading flubber, but that's pretty light.

[Csareo]

TSO is pretty much saying that I'm a terrible town player, but scum for agreeing with him.

[Csareo]

You shouldn't actually agree with that as town. You should tell me to fuck off, and that I'm not too great either. It's townpride.

I see a "no true scotsman" fallacy.
That's an old one.

[Csareo]

Make your case TSO

[Csareo]

So, some fight at last?

I started going through your ISO and I realised the staggering length this post is going to be. It's not going to happen tonight, but it will tomorrow.

And, frankly, anyone who doesn't vote you after it will deserve some kind of anti-Scummy.

I think you'll win an award for "largest false case".
I'm an MIG-23 Flogger, IE, Vannila Townie.

[Csareo]

For anyone who cares about theme...

Spoiler: McDonnell Douglas F15 Strike Eagle

The McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing) F-15E Strike Eagle is an American all-weather multirole fighter, derived from the McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle. The F-15E was designed in the 1980s for long-range, high speed interdiction without relying on escort or electronic warfare aircraft. United States Air Force (USAF) F-15E Strike Eagles can be distinguished from other U.S. Eagle variants by darker camouflage and conformal fuel tanks mounted along the engine intakes.
The Strike Eagle has been deployed for military operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya. During these operations the F-15E has carried out deep strikes against high-value targets, combat air patrols, and providing close air support for coalition troops. It has also seen action in later conflicts and has been exported to several countries.

Spoiler: F16 Fighting Falcon Block 52

The first Block 50/52 F-16 was delivered in late 1991; the aircraft are equipped with improved GPS/INS, and the aircraft can carry a further batch of advanced missiles: the AGM-88 HARM missile, JDAM, JSOW and WCMD.[6] Block 50 aircraft are powered by the F110-GE-129 while the Block 52 jets use the F100-PW-229.

Spoiler: F16 Fighting Falcon

The General Dynamics (now Lockheed Martin) F-16 Fighting Falcon is a single-engine multirole fighter aircraft originally developed by General Dynamics for the United States Air Force (USAF). Designed as an air superiority day fighter, it evolved into a successful all-weather multirole aircraft. Over 4,500 aircraft have been built since production was approved in 1976.[3] Although no longer being purchased by the U.S. Air Force, improved versions are still being built for export customers. In 1993, General Dynamics sold its aircraft manufacturing business to the Lockheed Corporation,[4] which in turn became part of Lockheed Martin after a 1995 merger with Martin Marietta.[5]

Spoiler: Mikoyan MiG-27 Flogger

The Mikoyan MiG-27 (Russian: Микоян МиГ-27; NATO reporting name "Flogger-D/J") is a variable-geometry ground-attack aircraft, originally built by the Mikoyan design bureau in the Soviet Union and later license-produced in India by Hindustan Aeronautics as the Bahadur ("Valiant"). It is based on the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23 fighter aircraft, but optimized for air-to-ground attack. Unlike the MiG-23, the MiG-27 did not see widespread use outside Russia, as most countries opted for the MiG-23BN and Sukhoi Su-22 instead. It currently only remains in service with the Indian, Kazakh and Sri Lankan Air Forces in the ground attack role. All Russian and Ukrainian MiG-27s have been retired.

Spoiler: Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23 Flogger

The Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23 (Russian: Микоян и Гуревич МиГ-23; NATO reporting name: Flogger) is a variable-geometry fighter aircraft, designed by the Mikoyan-Gurevich design bureau in the Soviet Union. It is considered to belong to the Soviet third generation jet fighter category, along with similarly aged Soviet fighters such as the MiG-25 "Foxbat". It was the first attempt by the Soviet Union to design look-down/shoot-down radar and one of the first to be armed with beyond visual range missiles, and the first MiG production fighter aircraft to have intakes at the sides of the fuselage. Production started in 1970 and reached large numbers with over 5,000 aircraft built. Today the MiG-23 remains in limited service with various export customers.
The basic design was also used as the basis for the Mikoyan MiG-27, a dedicated ground-attack variant. Among many minor changes, the MiG-27 replaced the MiG-23's nose-mounted radar system with an optical panel holding a laser designator and a TV camera. Ground-attack variants of the MiG-23 were also produced, and these generally saw better export success, retaining more multi-mission capability.

[Csareo]

TSO, this might be taboo at this point, but what plane represents your role?

[Csareo]

Thanks for lynching a vanilla townie. I should of been more active to defend myself....
Anyways, shame on all of you for falling for TSO's bullshit.
He obviously can't make a correct and logical case it seems.

[Csareo]

I guarantee that scum lies in these four people
- Mykonian
- Reckoner
- TSO
- Anatole

[Csareo]

Unfortunately farside isn't bussing. I will flip VT.
Which should actually be a source of a town read.
Narrowing my read list down, I'm pretty certain that Mykonian and Anatole are a scum team.