Mini 1628: Rick Santorum Saves Xmas - Gaybepocalypse

[Mathdino]

sup

reserving #2 pls

NOPE

Reserving whatever Flames has by the time I pick, ty.

[Mathdino]

There were only 3 boxes in that game. Adjacency is irrelevant.

[Mathdino]

No reason, just messing around with the arbitrariness of all this

Flames's correct strategy would be to let someone else get #2, and steal #2 when I take whatever he takes.

[Mathdino]

I'd like to make a formal request to everyone to not pick #2

[Mathdino]

Well, to Bert, Shinobi, Wisdom, and Konowa

[Mathdino]

DON'T FALL FOR FLAMES'S #2 TRAP MAAAAAN

[Mathdino]

I heard that box 2 contains

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[Mathdino]

How do you know TOWN can't win without what's in that box and town is working together to get it?!?!?!

[Mathdino]

CP1116, I will eat you if you pick box 2.

Box 2 is TSO's, mkay.

[Mathdino]

I steal from CP1116.

[Mathdino]

I steal from CP1116.

Really?

YESSSSSSS

Legit just picked a player to mess with during WE phase. EAT IT FLAMES

[Mathdino]

Watch box 2 be a 1-shot strongman vig/roleblock along with 2 shots of BP.

[Mathdino]

WAT

steal from random person other than Flames

[Mathdino]

Steal from Wisdom because he'll probably be online in the next few hours

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Marquis
for stealing from the strong player who ended up taking 10.

Wisdom I'd expect to steal from someone anyway, doubt there's any worth in reading him for that. Bert, meh.

[Mathdino]

Yo Marquis, can you link me your most recently completed scum game that's most useful to read? (so like nothing where you died really early on, no multiball, etc)

[Mathdino]

Just a gut feeling from what I can read of his mafia personality. Was actually surprised he didn't steal anything the first time around.

[Mathdino]

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Nothing here indicates Marquis has a post restriction.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: bert

like mj doctor
u killin me

Wait never mind I'm dumb, thought he's only been voting today.

Marquis, if you're gonna post, please say something not useless.

[Mathdino]

I need wisdom to make an appearance so we can pow wow, his meta is fresh in my brain(or at least his town meta).

Until that point, we need to choo choo choose him......to die.

inb4 THERE IS NO TOWN WISDOM

[Mathdino]

I have an idea for White Elephant phase. What if we popcorn picks in a sense? Like every person above the other on the list decides what box the person below will pick. Since scum are aware of what box has the kill, any hesitance to pick that box shows scum. This works as long as we don't rampantly steal stuff of course.

[Mathdino]

Wisdom whatcha think of my gift popcorn idea?

[Mathdino]

Late RVSing isn't a scumtell AFAIK. And yeah I can agree with your Wisdom townread.

Thoughts on gift popcorning? It shouldn't be a huge issue unless you've got a way of figuring out boxes yourself, and even then, it's useful to give better stuff if the person below you is a townread and shit stuff if scumread.

[Mathdino]

The person above you decides what you pick next again?

[Mathdino]

Mathdino, so from #3 GiF would have picked for Shea, Marquis would have picked for GiF, etc.?

Vote: Shinobi

Yep! It doesn't even slow down the process since we're just going down the line.

Once again, Shinobi is annoying, but I'm not getting scumvibes from that.

Off topic: @TSQ: I'm at a loss as to how 'fucktwat' is more okay than 'cunt'.

[Mathdino]

Please explain the drawback of the idea, TSQ. The decision matters more to scum than it does to town. Personally, I don't give a shit which box I take; if there's some kind of investigative x-ray vision into boxes, I can see why it'd be an issue, but otherwise, it's totally arbitrary for town.

Off topic: @TSQ: The words mean literally the same thing... and 'fucktwat' is like a double whammy, connecting the idea of fucking to a woman's body part. If anything that has a worse meaning. Otherwise history of a word being the worst swear word in the media doesn't inherently make it worse.

[Mathdino]

Literally the worst idea I've ever heard.

[Mathdino]

The quote is still appropriate, Wisdom. Kono asked Marq to pick box 10 and he didn't.

Scum probably have some extra mechanic we don't know about yet. Not sure there's any use trying to predict it.

@TSQ: But scum have the same drawbacks as town do, as they give the choice of what box has the killing item to town. Also we can actually analyse the White Elephant phase better. The benefit is huge; if someone after agreeing to the proposal is unwilling to take a box, they're scum and that's the killing box. Alternatively, it gives scum the option of taking the killing box when they would not otherwise do so. In effect it opens up the killing mechanic to EVERYONE, not just non-scum.

Off topic: I like how you always have the off topic stuff first. So basically if 'fucktwat' becomes hugely popular it's going to enter historical context and we'll need to find another word?
Also can I assume 'piece of shit', as an inherently dehumanising phrase, is one you don't support?

Edit:

Shootvote: Marquis

[Mathdino]

Also the fact that lynches are more accurate than vigshots, although vigshots are semiuseful for policying.

[Mathdino]

Should get more votes on Marquis. Does he usually act like this, anyone who's played with him before?

Off topic: The main thing about what you've seemed to consider oppressive is the dehumanising bit. "Piece of shit" literally dehumanises someone to a dungpile and is fairly offencive, I think. So unless your idea of what's okay and what's not okay ties very deeply into hipster culture (essentially anything that involves the system is bad and anything else is good), I'm still not seeing the inherent difference here. Does the avoidance of the word but not avoiding the word 'cock' or 'dick' not create another gender difference in that it's "better" to be a penis than a vagina?

[Mathdino]

re: boxes. Because I trust my ability to figure out the box system better than literally anyone else. Also, because I am assuming scum knows what box has the killing item and town does not I'd prefer not to possibly give the choice of what box I get to someone who could be scum. Lastly because there is literally no benefit at all.

This was my theory as well. Given the short turnaround between final box picked and GiF death, Scum probably prime a box. I will not be leaving a box selection to someone else.

...but that's the whole point. The way the system is currently, non-scum will ALWAYS have the killing box. SOME townie is going to die no matter what. All that this whole "I get to figure out the arbitrariness of the boxes" is, is pointless self preservation.

If we pick boxes for each other, we're also picking boxes for scum, which leaves them open to being killed by themselves

[Mathdino]

So much for the greater good. Guess this is the difference between playing for fun and play to win?

[Mathdino]

Scum won't willingly kill themselves. It's my guess that they'd try to weasel out of picking the killbox, at which point we'd all know what's up.

[Mathdino]

Because he has an item that has to do with white elephant phase.

[Mathdino]

Why is Wisdom at L-2?

[Mathdino]

Y'all should vote for who Bert should shoot.

[Mathdino]

I actually agree with FuD, I'm not getting townvibes from TSQ this game.

On a sidenote, I still don't see much worth voting in Shinobi.

[Mathdino]

Like the other difference is that TSO is using "But he's attacking a confirmed townie!" as justification for an attack as well which is a large part of what I was attacking. I'm not trying to use my self-known innocence as a reason why someone elses posts are bad/likely to come from scum or whatever. I don't think its unreasonable or scummy that you have a gut scum read on me, I just think its wrong.

Is insulting his gut not useless then if said insult isn't confirmable?

Math shut the fuck up you know thats just because Im not going along with your stupid popcorning the white elephant plan.

Nah, Konowa's also not going with it, getting slight townvibes from him. It's something else.

[Mathdino]

Right, okay, so I figured out what it was.

VOTE: Bert

Are we still rvsing? Well I am.

Guys, wisdom is obv town. Based off of his interaction with me re: the flip alignment. There is no way that wasn't genuine.

In other news,

serious VOTE: Shinobi

There is a whole FUCK ton of shit that has happened. Those who attempt to keep the game in a random state after there is plenty of information to begin actually playing a serious game are either lazy people playing town like shit or savvy scum trying to deny town information as long as possible.

Which one are you?

There is no such thing as a scum tell.

I talked about late RVSing not being a scumtell in response to TSQ implying it was, since he was basically suspecting based on a scumtell but presenting it as a read in context. Doesn't quite match up, his Shinobi suspicion still seems unfounded IMO.

can we not lynch me day 1
like at least after the next elephant phase

Why the hell should we wait for the next elephant phase?

Like what does that have to do with anything?

This is a suspicious post

This was a singular post that isn't followed up on nor is it preceded by anything else on Marquis. Statements not matching stated reads, seems like you're going with the general flow of Marquis suspicion but not backing it up with much.

[Mathdino]

a. Because you're presenting it as suspicion rather than pressure or policy, which is essentially what it is. Either FuD or TSO stated it well when he said insincerity doesn't ring town.
b. Can be faked, I pull setup spec as scum.
c. Colours were in the role PMs, this doesn't really mean much.
d. Not like he was in serious danger of being lynched even at L-2. I can't really dole out townpoints for this sort of thing.

e (because adding an e). You're trying to prove yourself town with things I wasn't even talking about. Don't like that, and the very fact that you're bringing them up nullifies any towncred you would've gotten from them.

Edit: Naturally, naturally. I agree there is no such thing as a scum tell, I never fought this idea. My issue is when you suspect Shinobi for RVSing too late, that's basically saying "Late RVSing is a scumtell". I don't see Shinobi's RVS vote as inconsistent with town at all.

[Mathdino]

Right, but you haven't talked about Marquis in any other context than pointing out one post that wasn't really suspicious in the first place (in my opinion). Again, it feels like you're going with the flow of Marquis suspicion without really participating in the discussion.

[Mathdino]

TSQ, as scum, would you

avoid

doing the things that you pointed out make you town? Because if so, that doesn't speak well about the quality of your scum game. Scum MUST do things that seem town motivated.

[Mathdino]

a) Math I can provide you like 4 town games where I've made the exact same argument. I even wrote an article about this.
(http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13710) come on dude. COME ON.

b) Can be faked is obviously a possibility. I was asking you if you really think its what's most likely. Do you think I'm really faking setup spec in order to bring it up when someone attacks me on gut later on? Again, check my meta. I'm not sure but I think you'll find I never do this.

c) What is the scum motivation for pointing it out?

d) I'M NOT ASKING FOR TOWN POINTS. I'm saying "is this action more likely to come from town or scum" if you say scum than you're an idiot, straight up.

Stop with the confirmation bias, pls.

Motivations are pure. You look to who the play helps in order to determine what it is more likely to be the alignment of the person doing it. You can "fake this" sure, but its hard because if you play against your win condition enough you lose the game.

a. towncred, b. towncred, c. towncred (and also not really a novel finding), d. towncred.
Note that if I were straight up scumreading you, I'd be voting you or voting for Bert to shoot you. All of this is from me contesting the notion that you're "town as fuck" and supporting the fact that I haven't gotten any townvibes from you so far, which I found odd given your level of activity. Your actions haven't been inconsistent with either alignment, so right now my read is a frustrated null.

[Mathdino]

I do not agree with shooting marquis, as Aronis said it seems just like trolling and is not alignment indicative. I honestly would not mind shooting TWO or TSQ(damn those abbreviations are too similar). TSQ is just purely a gut read though.

Also wisdom, give me some credit. Your town play is fresh in my head but I think I could figure out your scum play.

I actually agree with FuD, I'm not getting townvibes from TSQ this game.

On a sidenote, I still don't see much worth voting in Shinobi.

Hum, I actually did confbias one thing, and that's that I thought FuD was thinking the same thing I am. Thought he was saying TSQ wasn't a townread since TSQ responded saying he was town as fuck.

[Mathdino]

frustrated null is different from a scumread.

Can confirm, haven't been scumreading you outside of light gut.

[Mathdino]

1. No reason, I have scumreads, I have no need to start off the day with policy votes.

2. Leaning slightly scum. Seems overly defencive and has mostly talked about himself so far.

3. Wisdom, FuDuzn, and Konowa.
Wisdom for appearing genuine, engaged, and helpful (although I really have to keep an eye on him because he managed to get me to buddy him hard for 2 days when he was scum).
FuDuzn for having what seems to be a natural thought process.
Konowa for a combination of the above.

Bert and Aronis lean a bit town, not really much reasoning behind that except viiiiibes man. Everyone else needs to post more (Flames and CP1116).

[Mathdino]

I'm not sure if I believe Bert on that.

[Mathdino]

No I mean I'm not sure if I believe that he 'accidentally' vigged you.

[Mathdino]

I don't really see a scum advantage to vigging me there with a slip up? Like, there is sufficient coverage to just vig me based on some vague suspicion I think if he really is scared of me enough to day vig me in particular?

Actually yeah you're probably right on that. That only works if TSO is scum and not enough people were suspecting him to warrant pretending to try to vig TSO.

[Mathdino]

TSQ drives a good point when he says there's not much scum motivation behind what Bert pulled. I don't understand it. Why not just vig TSO? Or come up with suspicion on TSQ and vig him normally?

[Mathdino]

VOTE: bert

Second the notion. Shot was both senseless and bad.

Nothing made me think Shinobi was scum before this.

Leaning scum on him, this is sheeping Wisdom on low hanging fruit.

[Mathdino]

I kinda like my Marquis vote but I can appreciate a TSO wagon based on his defenciveness all day and sudden mind switching on Bert.

VOTE: TSO

[Mathdino]

Dislike Wisdom's switch to TSO. His argument for TSO-scum relies on Bert-scum. Why not just keep the vote on Bert? Also 381 Mathdino's vote looks like an attempt to start a wagon based around this whole "Bert would have only vig'd TSO if he knew he were scum.". It makes no sense after 368.

Uh, no, actually it relies on Bert being town and TSO going after low hanging fruit. At least my vote does.

[Mathdino]

Then you need to explain why you thought townBert actually wanted to vig TSO. Because it's not obvious from his post history at all.

I don't know, ask him. The fact remains that he's a scumread if what he's done is inconsistent with town, and I haven't seen that inconsistency; I see him being genuine there as plausible. The autocorrect point is a good one as to how he accidentally ended up shooting TSQ.

[Mathdino]

I don't find it an unnatural thought process, so while it's annoying for dayvigging out of nowhere, it's sufficient for me not to scumread him as a result. My initial issue was vigging TSQ when he meant TSO but autocorrect pretty much solves that.

[Mathdino]

Bert:

Can you clear all this up please?

I'm not going to defend him or come up with scenarios for him, only gonna defend my townread on him.

I actually think TSO is scum, and given TSQ's flip, Bert's reasoning doesn't completely suck.

[Mathdino]

Wait what? Flames hammered?

[Mathdino]

Something blah hi there TSQ more words idk

If Bert uses the word 'TSQ' a lot, which I'm fairly sure he does at this point (at least more than he uses 'TSO'), then it'll start checking him because it's smart like that.

[Mathdino]

Oh for god sakes I mean Mathdino's 368.

Why did I say Kaboose wtf

I had to check to make sure I clicked the right bookmark lol

[Mathdino]

If TSO flips scum, I feel like Flames would check to see how many votes he had on him before hammering. So almost definitely town.

[Mathdino]

Btw, if I die tonight, Wisdom should organise the popcorning if only because he's active way more than everyone else (best reasoning again).

Would HIGHLY recommend everyone participate so white elephant phase can be scrutinised/strategised.

[Mathdino]

Oh yeah never mind. In that case I'm slightly less distressed about TSO hammer.

[Mathdino]

Any possibility of using your item before mod gets on?

[Mathdino]

My item is a check for less than a dollar - I do not get a power from that, believe it or not.

may be sleep deprivation but i lol'd so hard at this

[Mathdino]

Box 2, marq.
Your turn

[Mathdino]

Mfw he picked 2, didnt see that

[Mathdino]

Marquis should take box 11

[Mathdino]

Cp1116 and Fud should start a stealing chain so we might be able to confirm some people as town.

[Mathdino]

and how would the people be conf town?

Semi conftown. If you take the killbox at any point you're either town or really ballsy scum. In this case, I feel like if box 2 has the kill, steals are meaningless since it's practically a localised meme by now and it's not unlikely someone will steal it.
With no stealing and everyone taking from the set of untaken boxes, we have nothing to look at. Stealing is the protown thing to do if we don't go with my plan.

Also something to consider:
Scenario 1: Alice takes box 3. No one steals. Alice dies.
Scenario 2: Alice takes box 3. Bobtown takes box 3. Bobtown dies, Alice gets (deserved) townpoints. Stealing is the right thing to do if it has a chance of saying something about the guy you're stealing from.

[Mathdino]

Box 5

I've got an idea! Let's rely on actual scumhunting instead of mechanics to lynch scum!

Implying I haven't been doing that already.

[Mathdino]

Steal Bert

[Mathdino]

Someone should steal Wisdom again xD

[Mathdino]

Guess I could've guessed this but I have a 1-shot cop. The entire playerlist looks good to use it on, so I'll decide before we get a lynch (it resolves at the end of the phase).

Agree on Bert.

VOTE: Shinobi

[Mathdino]

With 3 scum alive I really think we should do my plan, it'd be huge if we could bag a scum during their phase.

[Mathdino]

No, it's an attempt to say "Goddammit guys why didn't we do this yesterday". I don't expect any townpoints if no one actually follows it since it then has no effect.

[Mathdino]

There wasn't really much to do about it after 3 people picked by themselves. I was on my phone for almost all of that phase, didn't have the energy (mentally and electronically) to rage at people and get the people below them to follow it.

Unfortunately we can't really get too many reads off it since I never told someone to pick box 9.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: bert

Second the notion. Shot was both senseless and bad.

Nothing made me think Shinobi was scum before this.

Leaning scum on him, this is sheeping Wisdom on low hanging fruit.

It was either him or Marquis but I think Marquis is slightly more town due to the white elephant phase.

I have the suspicion there's scum in {Flames, CP1116} as well but that's mostly gut, got nothing solid on that.

[Mathdino]

You're not very convincing. You made much better arguments in the other game.

Like "it's either him or marquis". Why? Why can't they both be town?

1. I'm less sure here because the players are stronger.
2. In the other game literally everyone I pushed except you ended up being town, soooooooo
3. They could be, but they're my top 2 scumreads and all that's changed between today and yesterday is TSO flipping town, Konowa (who was already a townread) flipping, and Bert/Marquis gaining townpoints. By "it was either him or Marquis" I meant that my vote was between them for today. I don't have many suspicions outside of them.

Edit: Not really sure why FuD, please explain? He's one of my stronger townreads.

[Mathdino]

Marquis repeatedly didn't pick the 2 or 3 non-kill boxes I picked out for him.

Okay rereading FuD he's actually not as townish as I thought he was. I townread him earlier for a natural thought process but it occurs to me that most of his play has been agreeing or disagreeing with things from the sidelines rather than engaging with people. Still wanna see where Shinobi takes us but I'm not sure what I was thinking on FuD.

[Mathdino]

I'm not townreading him by any means, but I am saying that makes him slightly townier than Shinobi. Is there a point you'd like to make on this?

can we not lynch me day 1
like at least after the next elephant phase

revise: you should probably let me live until elephant phase because related topic

Looking through his ISO I want a follow up on this though.

Edit: I'd never looked at your ISO before. My reads on people generally shift by a lot between engaging with them and skimming ISO.

[Mathdino]

Wisdom's making good points but I'm not seeing the inconsistency with town. Furthermore I'm actually townreading the fact that FuD starts defending his reads/logic rather than his alignment, as if the latter wasn't really in question.

[Mathdino]

Furthermore I'm actually townreading the fact that FuD starts defending his reads/logic rather than his alignment, as if the latter wasn't really in question.

This makes no sense. He's defending what I'm attacking.

"and here you are knocking my reads because they are different than yours and arrived at them in a different manner than you may."
"Why are you trying so hard to poke holes in my argument?"
Nowhere here does he appear interested in defending his alignment, rather his credibility and that of his reads. This reminds me of my own play at the end of o575.

[Mathdino]

He doesn't say "you're calling me scum based off of 'so-and-so'", he says "you're calling my reads shit because of 'so-and-so'". I find the difference notable.

[Mathdino]

He doesn't say "you're calling me scum based off of 'so-and-so'", he says "you're calling my reads shit because of 'so-and-so'". I find the difference notable.

I don't understand your point, and that doesn't tell me good things about you given you were very transparent as town.

I don't understand what you don't understand. As scum, you're more likely to be hyper-aware of your and your partner's alignments. As such, I find that scum is more likely to single out the fact that they're being scumread, while town is more likely to completely ignore and forget that (not once did he talk about being scumread) and instead focus on the attacks to their logic. I did the exact same thing in 575 to the point where I forgot I was being scumread for shitty logic and started using evidence that wasn't applicable at the time I made said logic to defend it because I was more interested in defending my ability as a town player rather than the fact that I was a town player.

[Mathdino]

I'm beginning to think I should expect that from Aronis.

Correct me if my premises are wrong, but what makes you back off of Flames?

[Mathdino]

Marquis didn't hesitate to pick the killbox since I only suggested 3 harmless boxes for him.

I think talking about this aspect of Marquis so much is making it look like I'm townreading him, which I'm not and I think that should be clear. The fact that he did that gives him a couple townpoints that gives him an edge over Shinobi on my suspect list, that's all. Until I reread Flames and CP1116 (I mostly skimmed over them), Marq is still my 2nd top suspect.

[Mathdino]

What 3 boxes are you talking about?

This:

Marquis should take box 11

is the only one you tell him what to take and even that is invalid because there is no box 11.

I fail to understand where you are getting townpoints from.

LOL

Okay I'm stupid. I also told him to take box 2 AFTER he took box 2. And for some reason I thought I had him pick something else as well.

Gonna keep my vote on Shinobi for the time being because I approve of this wagon and wagoning doesn't appear to do much pressure to Marq. But that pretty much equalises my reads.

[Mathdino]

@Flames: Sorry, got distracted. It's going after low hanging fruit by sheeping a widely townread player. It's the definition of opportunism, except most people didn't latch onto it. In 492 his excuse to Wisdom is "I was sheeping you" which is, needless to say, lame-ass (combined with the fact that he ended up voting the guy he sheeped, likely to backpedal from the move), and the post right after reads fake in itself; he never commented on TSO once until after he got lynched.

@Wisdom: After 575 and 574, I think people have expected more strength from me than I can output since back then I was only in a couple games and now I'm in multiple along with a job. I can still keep up but I'm not infallible to fucking up.

[Mathdino]

this is that post to say that i've been posting in other games but avoiding this one since i really would prefer not to be caught up in this tangle

will attempt to untangle after the majority of you 4 get offline

please stop spamming

thank you

[Mathdino]

this is that post to say that i've been posting in other games but avoiding this one since i really would prefer not to be caught up in this tangle

will attempt to untangle after the majority of you 4 get offline

please stop spamming

thank you

Mathdino, my question regarding fuduzn please

i haven't even read that

all i know is y'all've filled up 3-4 pages with this shit within half an hour

i will respond to everything important afterward because trying to keep up with this kind of thing is exactly what makes me lose momentum/motivation in a game

[Mathdino]

Sounds like an excuse, Mathdino :/

yyyyyep

i've become rather attuned to what makes me suck at keeping up with games
this is exactly that kind of thing
so unless you all have anything new to say
stop saying stuff so i can look over it all later
spamming threads like that is exactly how to get an arbitrary assignment of "herp derp this is tvt" or "hmm fishy spamming looks tvs"

[Mathdino]

why the fuck is fud at L-1 with 4/9 of the thread not engaged

also finding it weird that i'm assigned the position of 'fuduzn defender'

promise to come back to this thread in half an hour, no offence, but not entirely sure i trust that spamming has stopped

[Mathdino]

my prior defence of his natural thought process was nullified after i read his iso
all i am currently defending (since i haven't read the past few pages) is his initial reaction to you going after him

ALSO CAN SOMEONE UNVOTE SO WE CAN SEND IN DAY ACTIONS
TY

prob gonna investigate wisdom

[Mathdino]

Why Wisdom?

because his D2 play is making my wisdom-compass act like it's on the LOST island and i really am not sure how to read him
plus he's active/domineering enough to win the game for scum
call it paranoia, this is the same reason y'all wagoned him at the beginning of D1

i think it'd be beneficial to massclaim our presents, see if we can work out day actions before we reach a lynch since we'll be in lylo tomorrow

[Mathdino]

Well if I am L-1 I should probably claim that I am Thomas Stephen "Tom" Monaghan.......and my flavor had some shit to do with papa johns and dominos, for some reason.

Makes me VT btw.

we're all VT and mods would be dumb to not write fakeclaims

claiming is meaningless, sorry

[Mathdino]

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seems pretty investigative amirite

[Mathdino]

We should all claim what we received today, IMO, since I'm assuming it's all 1-shot and not alignment indicative and also nothing scum can really do about. My laptop is obviously a cop.

Edit: SHINOBI

[Mathdino]

Investigation sent, reading thread today

[Mathdino]

ITS HAPPENING I GOT THIS

[Mathdino]

Insta voting just after someone else got the ball rolling is a scummy move since Bert is the easy VI lynch at that point.

Day had just started. I just happened to post first. This is bullshit.

Disagree, the fact that Shinobi specifically mentioned you in his vote means you had something to do with it. I find it likely that your happening to post first just made him more confident in that vote.

I totally commented on TSO.

I called him town way before we lynched him and I still don't know why he died.

Okay see this is an excuse and not really a defence of what we're calling him out for.
Also it's still going for townpoints of "WHY DID WE LYNCH TOWN GUYS".

I don't see how me voting with or sheeping Wisdom has anything to do with anything atm.

Pedit: Oh, marquis is just going to jump on wagons for no reason again?

We have a very nice tangle of the players {Wisdom, Shinobi, Marquis, FuDuzn} now that I'll explain in another post. Best part is we'll know Wisdom's alignment after today.

The point is, it's not like it was some random point in the day where someone started a wagon and shinobi sheeped like Fuduzn is presenting it. Bert did what he did, I voted him instantly after thread unlock, shinobi agreed and sheeped. Makes sense for town.

Ehhh. I don't really see the difference between it happening at some random point, and it happening after vote reset. In context, it's still bad.

I don't like the first post of the Day being something that offers no content but does comment on the death. Flavor notwithstanding. On its own it probably isn't much but after re reading 363 I don't like him.

Pre edit: Why so defensive wisdom? I was saying that it was the timing of shinobis sheeping of you that was scummy......

Pre edit 2: Pre edits revenge: Shinobi, so going after an easy target doesn't deserve a little kick of the tires at the very least?

Pre edit 3: Pre edit lives: Yes, clear clear connection between us. Just as we discussed in the PT.

In every game ever I will state that potential trolling and potential lurking in a game is not alignment indicative........no matter what my alignment is. And please do not insult my scum game, I will gladly through my buddy under the bus on Day one.

Okay yeah this is really bad. The quoted point is good. "Why so defensive" isn't even true since Wisdom looks the opposite of defencive, this seems like mudslinging. The Shinobi point is the same sort of thing. The third is meaningless/pointless sarcasm. And then it ends with self-meta and talking about his own scumgame in what looks like a desperate attempt to WIFOM his buddy.
FuD's getting scummier and scummier with more pressure. I really really hate this post.

I don't like the first post of the Day being something that offers no content but does comment on the death. Flavor notwithstanding. On its own it probably isn't much but after re reading 363 I don't like him.

Pre edit: Why so defensive wisdom? I was saying that it was the timing of shinobis sheeping of you that was scummy......

Pre edit 2: Pre edits revenge: Shinobi, so going after an easy target doesn't deserve a little kick of the tires at the very least?

Pre edit 3: Pre edit lives: Yes, clear clear connection between us. Just as we discussed in the PT.

In every game ever I will state that potential trolling and potential lurking in a game is not alignment indicative........no matter what my alignment is. And please do not insult my scum game, I will gladly through my buddy under the bus on Day one.

Nobody cares what you think, scum.

I also don't like this post.

Also someone explain to me how Fuduzn-town thinks Shinobi is scum for sheeping me, yet I am ALSO scum.

I assume this is the question you were asking me? I don't know how his mind works, sorry, and town does go a bit cray-cray every now and then. Ask him that question.

{Bert, Flames, Shinobi} = town. maybe crazypianist.

The other four minus one are scum

This is the kind of thing that made me decide to investigate you btw. Your extreme aggressiveness right now and general rigidity are making me really uncomfortable with considering the quality of your points. They look good on the surface as usual, but I'm rather paranoid right now of how much my view of today's been manipulated by you-scum.

VOTE: FuDuzn

Okay, Wisdom. You win. Let's lynch fuduzn otherwise known as innocent victim #1 and then maybe you can see what a fucking moron you are.

holy shit this is bad
add aronis to that tangle above, will make a post on associatives later

nono Aronis first

The case on Fud is logically sound and the lynch itself makes sense.

Aronis getting pissed off and voting what we perceive to be mafia doesn't make him mafia.

Lynch Fud.

Pedit: I don't see how that's a scumslip.

The scumslip is in Aronis seeming to somehow know for certain that FuD is town. At this point I'd actually not be surprised if you two were scum.

Also, wait a second. Aronis, you would only help me if you knew my alignment. And if you were town based you wouldn't just change your path to allow me to be lynched like that.

VOTE: aronis

This is a true point.

Summary after associatives.

Edit: I don't get a result until the day's over. I'll share the result at the start of white elephant phase.

[Mathdino]

Yeah you know what, less work for me. If FuD flips town, I'm looking at Aronis and Shinobi. If scum, not really sure yet, but Marquis looks good.

Either way I'm growing more confident in the idea that there's scum in {CP1116, Flames}. Will ISO them regardless.

Otherwise, Konowa and Bert have been weirdly sitting on the sidelines of all this. I think they're both town right now but PoE/lack of engagement may change that.

[Mathdino]

FuD's not trolling.

I'm not sure whether I should scumread CP's hammer. I'm more interested in Shinobi/Aronis/Flames.

Also fuck half of you are gonna be scum after the white elephant death.

Whoever doesn't follow the plan tomorrow dies.

[Mathdino]

Marquis is more town than not.

@Flames: There was always something off about your interaction with CP1116. I still have no logical reasoning for it since I've yet to reread through that, but it's there.
Also you and CP were the 2 town-hammerers.

I'll expand on all cases if I'm alive tomorrow.

[Mathdino]

Also Wisdom's flip is crazy important.

No one should begin picking gifts until I reveal my investigation result.

I'm questioning if it's a good idea to let Wisdom orchestrate all gifts. The issue is it removes accountability from anyone and makes it difficult to read. That's the optimal thing if we want scum to die during WE phase but not if we want to gather reads from it.

[Mathdino]

EBWOP: to let Wisdom orchestrate all gifts if he ends up being town.

The only reason you'd have for not trusting that result is if you think me/Wisdom are scum together.

[Mathdino]

Wisdom is town. It's

Marquis's

turn to pick the box.

Much more comfortable with D2 now.

[Mathdino]

What's the new picking order?

[Mathdino]

You should pick a box for whoever's first, Marquis.

[Mathdino]

I thought you changed it after the mod's first post, so I wanted you to post the new picking order.

[Mathdino]

yo Shinobi
pick for Flames

[Mathdino]

lol people forgetting

flames pick for CP1116

[Mathdino]

Yet he clearly didn't rearrange the order so all 3 scum are in the same block, so I'm not really sure what that was for.

Also btw, on D1 I got a bag of weed I can use to put anyone at the bottom of the gift order.

I'd prefer Aronis picking for Wisdom.

@Mod: I auto pick the last box available when it's my turn.

[Mathdino]

Accountability.

[Mathdino]

Umm no. Aronis can easily kill me and that won't even prove he is scum because it could have been by chance.

Except he's already insanely scummy. Plus, this discussion in itself will likely prevent him from doing that

[Mathdino]

Ok nvm Aronis might just be bad as usual

Back on course

I think aronis is using this fighting to not do jack shit in this game

Nah I think it's genuine

Now he's scum to you again?

Remind me why you're asking this kind of question to conftown?

[Mathdino]

I'm not conftown to them, just to you

The only way you're scum is if you and I are scum together. I leave the exercise to the reader to determine if that makes any sense.

[Mathdino]

And since Aronis is 2nd highest on my scumlist, he'll move to 1st place if he kills Wisdom. I have no qualms trading conftown for almost confscum.

@Wisdom: I dunno, I think we've played in a manner that doesn't indicate scum together. Again, I leave it up to the reader; anyone who says you're not conftown is essentially saying you/me is a legit possibility and needs to back that up.

[Mathdino]

Just to restate, I'm taking whatever Marquis doesn't pick.

Up to you, Bert.

[Mathdino]

No one is confirmed town to me unless they're dead and flipped, innocent child, or some confirmable town role.

Someone could be playing town as fuck and still be scum. Not saying that Wisdom is scum, but he's not conf town.

So either he's town, a godfather, or I'm scum and he's my buddy.

[Mathdino]

I investigated Wisdom with my CIA laptop and he's a righteous warrior.

[Mathdino]

lol

yes he investigated righteous muslim warrior

calling for jihad

clearly

[Mathdino]

box 1

dude pick a box for marquis

[Mathdino]

box 5