Mini 482: Shrek Mafia - Game Over
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Uh huh. How do you know Nox is a townie?Grek wrote:
If the scum quicklynch, we find 2 scum for 1 townie. If they don't, we lose nothing.Mirth wrote:If you're voting Nox for putting a third vote on Jex, why did you just put a fifth vote on Nox? Please explain yourself.
This also sounds like you're trying to push a lynch on Nox. We're now on page 2. Nox hasn't done anything lynch worthy at this point in time. Why are you being so hasty? Additionally, assuming that two other people vote Nox, how do you know that they'll both be scum? Could be that the scum either already voted Nox or just don't want to give themselves away by doing so now?-
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Wrong. At this point in time, we lose a whole day of potential information.Grek wrote: I don't know, but her alignment doesn't matter. If she is scum and get's lynched, that's good. If she's scum and isn't, we lose nothing. If she is town and nobody quicklynchs, she is safe. If she is town and gets quicklynched we found some scummy people.
Again, the theory of two scum just jumping right on is flawed. It also looks even more suspicious that you're unvoting right now, especially after we called you out on the initial vote.Grek wrote:The only way she is going to get lynched is if 2 more people voted before anyone can unvote. Which would be realy scummy. I was offering the scum enough rope to hang themselves, both figuratively and literaly. Seeing as they did not take the bait, IUnvote.
Not necessarily. Trigger happy townies exist too. Could have been perfectly possible for two townies to pile right on. Also your lines of reasoning here don't really reconcile, like it doesn't matter if we get a myslynch or not.Grek wrote:If two other peoplequicklynchNox, they are scum. As in voting for her before anyone can unvote. If they have already voted, they can't vote again and nothing bad will happen.
[quote="Grek]
If the scum don't want to give themselves way, they don't vote and we can try some other way to find them.[/quote]
"If the scum don't want to give themselbes away"? What kind of statement is that? Why would the scum want to give themselves away? Sure, they might decide to sacrifice one or two of themselves at some point in a game, but right now its not particularly advantageous. This group of players has barely had time to get acquainted with each other. If a scum player were to sacrifice himself now, it doesn't do anything for the scum. They just lose a member. Scum sacrifice is, if played well, about redirecting suspicion. Deciding to get yourself lynched this early on day one, with most of the players not even contributing yet, doesn't do anything of this sort. You don't throw suspicion on or off anybody, because right now, most players have barely had time to greet each other, let alone do something either pro or antitown.
Also, we don't know how many scum there are (and also whether or not we have a Serial Killer). So even if one or two scum decides to sacrifice himself, the town still might not be in a particularly good situation, as the chance to gather information is lost.
On a totally unrelated note: Adam, I'm assuming your location is a reference to Atlas Shrugged?-
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EBWOP: Darn it. Tags didn't work. Let's hope this works now.
Wrong. At this point in time, we lose a whole day of potential information.Grek wrote: I don't know, but her alignment doesn't matter. If she is scum and get's lynched, that's good. If she's scum and isn't, we lose nothing. If she is town and nobody quicklynchs, she is safe. If she is town and gets quicklynched we found some scummy people.
Again, the theory of two scum just jumping right on is flawed. It also looks even more suspicious that you're unvoting right now, especially after we called you out on the initial vote.Grek wrote:The only way she is going to get lynched is if 2 more people voted before anyone can unvote. Which would be realy scummy. I was offering the scum enough rope to hang themselves, both figuratively and literaly. Seeing as they did not take the bait, IUnvote.
Not necessarily. Trigger happy townies exist too. Could have been perfectly possible for two townies to pile right on. Also your lines of reasoning here don't really reconcile, like it doesn't matter if we get a myslynch or not.Grek wrote:If two other peoplequicklynchNox, they are scum. As in voting for her before anyone can unvote. If they have already voted, they can't vote again and nothing bad will happen.
"If the scum don't want to give themselbes away"? What kind of statement is that? Why would the scum want to give themselves away? Sure, they might decide to sacrifice one or two of themselves at some point in a game, but right now its not particularly advantageous. This group of players has barely had time to get acquainted with each other. If a scum player were to sacrifice himself now, it doesn't do anything for the scum. They just lose a member. Scum sacrifice is, if played well, about redirecting suspicion. Deciding to get yourself lynched this early on day one, with most of the players not even contributing yet, doesn't do anything of this sort. You don't throw suspicion on or off anybody, because right now, most players have barely had time to greet each other, let alone do something either pro or antitown.Grek wrote: If the scum don't want to give themselves way, they don't vote and we can try some other way to find them.
Also, we don't know how many scum there are (and also whether or not we have a Serial Killer). So even if one or two scum decides to sacrifice himself, the town still might not be in a particularly good situation, as the chance to gather information is lost.
On a totally unrelated note: Adam, I'm assuming your location is a reference to Atlas Shrugged?-
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Okay, you lynch them, what next? Whom do you associate them with? If you lynch them right away, where exactly do you go from there? Sure, you can discuss day 2, pre lynching one of the people who dropped the last votes, but as this is early day one right now, a quicklynch would not give you any hints as to player interaction, so when you start day two, you start completely blind, with probably at least one more dead townie body. The only lead you have is the hammerer, and if it were a scum player dumb enough to hammer this early, well, the other scum would have any easy target to reflect blame onto. A scum sacrifice would make the others look more innocent. Again, I say quicklynch = bad. Why lynch randomly (we don't know Nox's alignment) when we could spend a few pages talking and make an educated guess.Grek wrote:
I think that finding 2 scum day one is better than having alot of discussion day one. We can discuss the next day as well. The only special thing that happens day one is the random voting, and we are done with that part.Mirth wrote:Wrong. At this point in time, we lose a whole day of potential information.
So what exactly is the point of taking your vote off?Grek wrote: I am unvoting because the scum didn't try to lynch Nox. Leaving my vote on her would be useless.
And yet you think two scum are dumb enough to quicklynch page 1? I call crap!logic on this. Also you are again talking like you are sure Nox is a townie. Why?Grek wrote: I honestly doubt that there are 2 townies that would be dumb enough to vote for her. It would be two scum acting like 2 dumb townies in an attempt to get rid of a townie without geting lynched. I said that if she gets lynched the people that did it are most almost sure to be scum and only the scum would hammer her. Someone would unvote if she got to lynch-1 and the two voting didn't work together.
Crap!logic again. That is exactly what they would be doing with a quicklynch. You said that you don't think two townies are stupid enough to quicklynch, so why exactly do you think two scum are?Grek wrote:It is a figure of speech. Another way of saying "If the scum aren't going to try to lynch Nox and inadvertently make the town think they are scum." Not actualy deciding to give themselves away.
Read my actual comment more closely, please. I'm not saying scum dying is a bad thing. I'm saying that jumping right in to a lynch blindly is a bad thing. And that a waste of day 1 just makes it harder for the town later on, especially if the scum use one of their own as a scapegoat and successfully distance themselves from their less than bright partners.Grek wrote:
In what situation would losing 2 scum be a bad thing for the town?Mirth wrote: Also, we don't know how many scum there are (and also whether or not we have a Serial Killer). So even if one or two scum decides to sacrifice himself, the town still might not be in a particularly good situation, as the chance to gather information is lost.
Your whole argument is based on the mistaken, crap!logical assumption that L-2 = automatic quicklych by two less scum a few books short of a library. Furthermore, you seem convinced that Nox is town. Again, I ask why.-
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Sorry, but I'm like a dog. Once I get my teeth into something, I don't let go of it.Grek wrote: To get you to stop complaining about it?
It's not ad hominem, because it is in fact crap!logic by your own reasoning of it and I am not attacking you as a person. You said that two townies would not be stupid enough to hammer for a quicklynch, yet think that two scum would. The theoretical stupidity of the two scum in your example has no logical basis. Therefore your argument is crap!logic.Grek wrote: First, saying my logic is crap!logic without anything to back it up would be an ad hominem attack, which as you hopfuly know is a logical fallacy. It will only make your agrument weaker.
Second, the scum have an incentive to lynch Nox if she is a townie because they know her alignment. The town does not know her alignment and it is in there best intrest not to vote for her. If she is scum, both the town and the scum have reason not to vote for her and we can move on to something else.
Why should we move on to something else? Your argument is clearly not satisfactory to at least a few other people besides myself.
If Nox is scum, then other scum could just as soon vote for her, as a means of distancing. And the town doesn't "know" anybody's alignment. Why would the town have no reason to vote for her is she is scum, exactly? I don't understand what you mean by this.
Also, by your own argument of two scum hammering, Nox could very well be scum since nobody hammered. Why not include that as a possibility if you're going to actually try to set a scum trap? (I don't think the lack of hammer proves anything though, since, as I've said, I don't think two scum are equally stupid enough to hammer a quicklynch.)
And yet you completely overlook this possiblity when you first claim your vote is a scum trap. Why? (I don't think it's a good test of anything, only disproving that scum aren't stupid enough to hammer, but it makes your argument less credible that you excluded it in the first place, since now it just looks like you're trying to come up with an explanation after the fact).Grek wrote: I realize that this is unlikly to work, but it isn't going to hurt us either so it's worth a shot. I don't know if Nox is scum, but if she is than the scum are unlikly to vote for her and we can use some other way of finding scum. You suggest something.
My suggestion of finding scum? Discussion. Like I'd like to know what everyone else thinks of this situation, since, so far, not very many people have been active.-
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Sigh. My point is that quicklynching Nox, regardless of whether or not she is scum or town, is bad, even for scum. The scum have no good reason to quicklynch her even if she is town, because it would give them away. Thus there is no good reason to quicklynch Nox for the scum. The end.Grek wrote:
The scum might have a good reason to vote for Nox, the town doesn't. That's why the scum might have voted for her when she is at lynch-2. It only makes sense to vote for her if the person voting is scum.Mirth wrote:It's not ad hominem, because it is in fact crap!logic by your own reasoning of it and I am not attacking you as a person. You said that two townies would not be stupid enough to hammer for a quicklynch, yet think that two scum would. The theoretical stupidity of the two scum in your example has no logical basis. Therefore your argument is crap!logic.
I'm not playing dumb. Your statement was unclear and seemed to refer to laying off the whole discussion, thus I took it as such.Grek wrote:
Move on to some other way of finding scum besides using Nox as bait. Don't play dumb.
Again, you are assuming that the scum decide that giving themselves away DAY ONE to quicklynch a townie is a likely move. Again, I say this is a fallacy.Grek wrote: We don't know if she is scum. The scum do. They might decide to go after her. The town does not know her alignment. We, the town, don't have a reason to go after her because we don't know if she is scum. I was hoping the scum would not realize that and vote for her, revealing themselves to us.
Actually, if they quicklynch, there is no distancing. It is a stupid movie to quicklynch your own partner. (Scum will turn on their own if there is sufficient evidence from which to distance themselves, but if it is a random quicklynch, that's giving themselves and their partner away. Again, REALLY stupid move.) Also, if Nox is scum, your quicklynch scenerio fails to account for the possibility of a Cop. It is possible that Cop investigated Nox night one, decides to hammer her on impulse (if Cop did this, it wouldn't be a particularly smart move), and goes to get himself killed. But again, Scum would not distance off a random quicklynch if they are the last two votes.Grek wrote: I considered that posibility. If she is scum, the only way for her to be used for distancing is if she gets lynched. The only way she is going to get lynched is if the scum quicklynch before the town can respond. If they quicklynch, the fact that they are using the lynch for distancing become aparrent.
This is not an answer.Grek wrote: Again, I considered it but didn't bother to type out what would happen in that situation because I thought it would be clear from what was already there.
I'm not going to argue this point any further, because you fail to understand the possibility that a quicklynch is not beneficial to the mafia if they are the ones dropping the hammer. Mafia dropping quicklynch hammer = giving themselves away = increasing their probability of losing = bad for mafia= unlikely to happen.
I would like to hear what everyone else has to say on this subject. Until then, Grek, I'm done arguing this point with you.-
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Wasn't distancing, I just really don't buy Grek's "it was a trap" argument, and felt that it needed to be thoroughly demolished.
As for InHim, I don't find his vote any more suspicious than Jex's third vote or Nox's third vote. It sort of seems like he voted for Nox because Nox placed a non-random early third vote on Jex, and the "third vote=good enough" was more along the lines of a pressure to get more information vote than a bandwagon vote.
I find Nox's vote, even if it was just a joke, to be just as worthy of inquiry as InHim's, because an adorable emo CareBear doesn't strike me as a particularly valid reason to throw a third vote on someone about halfway down page one. Same for Jex's vote, even if that also was a joke, it pointed out the lack of validity Nox's vote had, and presented Nox as someone to move votes onto.
Overall, I find Grek's vote and unvote to be the most suspicious out of all of them, as the vote was only given a very flimsy reason after he was called on it, and the unvote was a "just leave me alone" unvote by his own admission. I also don't particularly like he he has written off gathering information day 1 as not particularly important.
Mod: can we please get a vote count?Thank you.
And on a totally unrelated note: Adam, Francisco d'Anconia and Hank Rearden were totally more awesome characters.-
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Eh, I don't know whether or not Grek's crap!logic makes him scum, but for now it seems like the best place to keep my vote.Zindaras wrote: I am most definitely on the Mirth side in this particular discussion. She's right. However, I do not believe that this necessarily makes Grek scum. I'd like to see this game move onto other subjects as well.
Personally, the thing that really caught my eye was ben's vote in 37. Just saying "Good points, Vote". I think that was quite the scummy move. For me, I think I want to start there.Vote: benhalkum
I have a feeling that Ben's vote might be somewhat influenced by the fact that both of us are in Newbie 431, so I'm not paying much attention to the vote itself. What I don't like, however, is how he has obviously checked in to say that he's been on and hasn't answered the questions thrown at him about it. (After both Pug and Camisade asked.)-
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As I've said, I just have a feeling, (as in I DON'T KNOW if that might have anything to do with it, it's just a thought, and when I say influenced, I didn't particularly mean consciously influenced, but maybe, subconsciously, Grek's arguments just seem better to him).
Why are you so quick to assume scumminess?-
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Actually they don't, as it isn't very prudent to think, "without a shadow of a doubt" that anybody is town. Especially not on page three.benhalkum wrote:Well, with being just a good guy I am only having to go off of suspecions and randomness like you guys.
You think without a shadow of a doubt Mirth is Town, then tell me. I'll go with my fellow good guys
The question, which you still have not actually answered, is *why* you voted for me. It doesn't matter that you voted for me, it matters that you did not give a reason for doing so. What exactly is suspicious? Please point it out.
Also, I don't like the part where you basically claim town-alignment. What prompted this?-
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I agree completely with this statement.Adam The Amazing wrote: Yup. In mafia, people are guilty until proven innocent with me. After all, we've got a quarter of our population trying to kill us!
While I'm not happy with Ben's lack of an actual response, I'm going to keep my vote on Grek, as I'm even less happy with his actions up to this point.-
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I would like to point out, in regards to Ben, that a day one vote does require an explanation, unless it's a random vote. Why? So that the rest of the town understands your thought process for the vote and could possibly futher investigate your suspect through questions your might have overlooked. Any bit of explanation helps the town. Obviously, your vote was not random, as you quoted a "reason."-
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This sounds like you're breadcrumbing a claim. This strikes me as very very very not good. Multiple reasons for why:Grek wrote:
I did not lie at all. What I did was more like a cop not posting the names of the innocents he has found so they aren't nightkilled for being a confirmed innocent. Would you lynch a cop for that?
1. This is day 1. You are not at L-1. In fact, unless I lost the ability to count, Adam is vote number 4 on you. To clear this up,Mod: can we get a votecount, please? Thank youThere is another player who is also ringing major alarm bells. There is no need to claim or even breadcrumb right now.
2. This could be misinterpreted by the cop (if we have a cop) as a false claim and cause him to come out of hiding. Which is not good.
3. Confirmed innocents can actually be good for the town if there is definately a cop (and the cop is sane). Scum can't false claim without being called on it, and town players get a core group of people that they can trust, depending on how many confirmeds the cop has. Yes, they become targets at night, but during the day it raises the probability of catching scum. But this right now is a non issue. Why bring it up?
Also, on the topic of Jester/Villiage Idiot/what have you. I do not believe we have one in this game based on the fact that this is a mini and its not a very common role. Also, I'm in another game with Ben, and he's acting pretty much the same way. (I'm not sure what to make of him in either game, but I'm going to keep my eye on him because he is most certainly not being helpful).
And once again, keeping your "plan" secret is a moot point. We can argue it to infinity, but it will still be moot.-
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I don't know yet if I think Grek deserves to die. Don't put words in my mouth please. I find his gameplay poorly thought out and his backpedaling explanations to be total crap!logic. I really really don't like his fifth vote on Nox on page 1 and his ridiculous justification of it. (I'm not going to get into this again) I also really don't like how he even brought up the role of cop. I don't like speculation on power roles unless there are actual claims as such. Why? It sounds like fishing. I don't see a need to fish. Yes, his post wasn't exactly speculation, but why compared himself to the role of cop? This bothers me.Zindaras wrote: Mirth, could you please explain why Grek deserves to die?
Additionally, the only other person who has been setting off my alarm bells thus far is Ben, and I really don't know what to think there. As I said, I'm currently in another game with him, and he's just as unsettling. I'm really not sure what to make of it. Newbie? Newbie-scum? Someone with a twisted sense of humor? I don't know. Even if the Mod does have a Jester in this game, it would be a bit too coincidental is Ben ended up with that role.
Right now my vote is on Grek mostly because I don't see a reason to move it. (The only person I would concievably move it to is Ben, because of unhelpfullness.) Right now I think Ben would be easier to lynch, with more people giving him grief than Grek. Either way, I am no where near ready for a lynch yet, as I am not satisfied with the day's amount of discussion thus far. My vote stays where it is though, as there is no immediate danger of a lynch and I am not satisfied with Grek. (I also don't think that keeping a pressure vote on Ben will yield anything remotely helpful).
Furthermore, I'm going to have to add Nox and a few other people to my list of people to keep a closer eye on. It bothers me that I keep being suspected of distancing. The distancing accusation makes it sound like you lot are a lot surer than I am about how, if Grek were lynched, he would turn out. (This however, is, of course, total WIFOM. As are your accusations of distancing.) As I've said before, I have a low tolerance for crap!logic.-
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Grek, why specifically Haschel? Why not Camisade or Pug or Goldfish or InHim?
Haschel, I will concede that Grek's moves follow in a logical pattern, but I will stand firm that the logical pattern is innately flawed and thus does not count in his favor. Here is an example like Grek's logic:
T. All ravens are black.
L1. Everything that is black must be a raven.
L2. Microwaves are black, so they therefore must be ravens.
L3. Microwaves heat stuff up, so therefore ravens must also heat stuff up.
L4. I could use a raven to bake a potato.
While statements L 1-4 follow follow a logical pattern, the underlying principle is a false assumption. The problem I mainly see with Grek is not that he didn't state his theory immeadiately before the vote, but rather that he developed the theory at all. I honestly don't think that's a very well thought out plan, and therefore wonder if he thought of it before he placed the vote, or hastily threw something together after the fact.
Also, my problem with the unvote is this: After we jumped on him for the vote, there was already 1 unvote, and nobody would have voted Nox after that because of the interrogation that would surely follow. (Unless Nox did something really scummy). So unless his vote was meant to go somewhere else, the unvote was in fact unnecessary. No immediate threat or better suspect. It seemed like a "just leave me alone" unvote, which is what it basically was. Leave him alone, why?
Also, I think Nox's alignment does very much matter, because Grek says he voted under the assumption that two scum would lynch. Now this assumption basically translates to Grek thinking Nox is a townie. If Nox is scum, the two imaginary scum have even less incentive to hammer. Not only do they lose one of their buddies, but they set themselves up for a load of suspicion the next day. Assuming for a second that two scum are dumb enough to quicklynch on the first page, why would they quicklynch one of their own? Thus Grek's plan implicitely assumes Nox is town. Why? We don't know if Nox is town. If Nox *is* town, then Grek is even more suspicious. If Nox *isn't* town, then Grek possibly looks more credible as a victim of badly utilized logic. So Nox's alligment matters here.-
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Why should you vote Grek? I don't know *if* you should vote Grek. Just because I'm suspicious of him doesn't mean you have to be. The whole of my case rests on his refusal to acknowledge that his plan was innately flawed.
I see no point in unvoting him as he's three votes away from a lynch, so my vote poses no actual threat at the moment. I'm not going to move my vote off him unless one of two things happens: 1. someone else acts suspicious. 2. Somebody adds a sixth vote to Grek before I'm satisfied with my opinion of him.
Why are you trying to get me to act like I'm trying to push a lynch on Grek? Yes, I'm obviously the most vocal about his crap!logic, but my arguments all boil down to how I don't agree with his premise and how I don't like his staunch support of it even after it has been debunked quite thoroughly. I have stated before that I'm not convinced that he's scum, just that I find him to be one of the most suspicious people here at the moment.-
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If I ever get a signature, I am so quoting that (with your permission of course.)Haschel Cedricson wrote: However, let's assume I honestly believed that I could use a raven to bake a potato.
I have a couple of questions for you, though:
1. Why do you think InHim is scummy? I honestly don't see anything all that scummy coming from him (yet, anyways. He hasn't posted much.)
2. Why do you think Ben is scummier than Grek? (I'm not saying that I don't, I have made no choice in regards to that, regardless of the fact that my vote is on Grek at the moment, but I would like to hear your opinion here.)
As to why I keep focusing on Grek well, he keeps arguing with me, and I can't back down from an argument ^_^
I would also like to hear some more from Pug, Camisade, Jex, and Nox, on top of InHim and Goldfish. (I would also like to hear some more from Ben, but I'm not getting my hopes up there.)-
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And yet since none of us are sure of roles (save scum themselves, and a cop if we have one), it might be better to corroborate evidence independently. Then if multiple people reach a similar conclusion, it would be due to evidence and not one particular player's persuasive abilties, which is what I would prefer.-
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Unvote: Grek
Vote: ImHim
InHim, please explain what exactly you're doing. I was willing to accept your early 4th vote on Nox as a game starter vote, but you "this this wagon better" than Ben's? Why? What exactly do you find suspicious?
Also, Ben, why do you sound as if you're defending him? You do realize that a vote is more than just a way of killing people, yes? Voting can pressure people into answers. Though in your case, it doesn't seem to be helping.-
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Yet there is something that doesn't add up with this theory. InHim is obviously an experienced player. So why would he be basically giving himself away like that if he is mafia? I don't get it.DeliciousGoldfish wrote:Wow. I just read it again and noticed some funny little hint-dropping... benhalkum and InHim appear, in my eyes, to be scum partners.
They throw suspicion each others' way... Jut little bits... Nothing solid. benhalkum even says "as if trying to get people suspecious of me." then votes him even though he said 2 posts prior to that that he didn't think voting him would be wise yet. He only voted him because he was prodded to for looking like he defended him.
wtf mate?
No wonder Inhim says he thinks the new bandwagon is better than the wagon against ben... haha.
Though obviously I can't PROVE this until the game ends or they are nked or lynched but... I believe I have a good theory goin.-
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No, because he's experienced, it seems to be an even stupider move than it would normally be. Like he should know that voting like that would draw major amounts of suspicion.Zindaras wrote:
So because he is experienced, he cannot possibly be caught?Mirth wrote:Yet there is something that doesn't add up with this theory. InHim is obviously an experienced player. So why would he be basically giving himself away like that if he is mafia? I don't get it.
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Unvote:InHim
I don't like how quickly this is escalating, especially since InHim hasn't said very much. I would like to hear more from him. His play also doesn't sit well with me for another reason someone mentioned earlier. (I would like to hear from InHim before I point out exactly what is bothering me here, as I don't want to prompt any responses in that vein of thought.)-
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Sorry that I haven't posted in a while. Totally crashed on Monday/yesterday (finally got enough sleep, yay!)
Grek, his answer seemed to be that "it's too early to think anything" unless I'm reading something wrong...and I know I shall be getting more flak for this, but I really don't like how hard Grek is pushing. I agree with Nox about it seeming like Grek is trying to get rid of attention.
As for my read on InHim. I do not know what to think, but he honestly does strike me as less scummy than a few other people. I don't like the wagoning, but two things don't sit well in my mind. Somebody mentioned earlier that the mod likes jester roles, and while speculating about it seems stupid, I keep remembering that phrase. InHim's player age just doesn't want to reconcile with the kind of stupid wagonning for me for some reason. That's all I have to add. (Now I need to go catch up on all I missed in Open. Argh.)-
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I'm really sorry about now posting lately. I have family over and they're being a pain. I didn't expect this, as I can usually just hole myself somewhere with my laptop and have them ignore me, but I have had no free time the last few days. I shall be able to get on the computer late tomorrow evening long enough to respond to stuff. Again, I'm very sorry about this and very sorry I didn't forsee it.-
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Sorry about my abscence. Family is finally gone, my apartment is empty, I am free to stay on the computer. Yay.
To the stuff I missed, I only have comments on the following:
Grek: I still think you're pushing too hard. At this point its kind of hard to think much of anyone really, as we have a few people not actively playing, and no one died night one. This means that we have a set-up with either 3 or 4 mafia members (and possibly a serial killer), and the remaining people are townies or some variant or other. Since a third or a quarter of the players here are bad evil horrible people who kick puppies and such, a read on day one with no bodies and no previous lynch is kind of hard to establish.
Also, as to whom scum will pick during the night, well, its most likely that scum will go power role hunting instead of trying to elliminate those who suspect them or kill those whose deaths will provide as little information for the town as possible. For a scum win, since there is more than one of them, it is perfectly okay if one or two of them bites the dust as long as they get rid of any power role that can influence the town. It's also perfectly okay to eliminate someone that suspects one of them, as long as the others can make themselves look innocent. So really the scum *WON'T* pick someone "regardless of what is said during the day." They'll try to use what is said during the day to maximize their chances of picking power roles at night, and leaving the more suspicious looking townies alive for the town to lynch during the day.
And that's all I have to say really, other than I really would like to hear from Ben's replacement.-
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Adam, perhaps you misunderstand what I meant by the *WON'T*. I mean that the mafia will of course use what happens during the day to influence their choice and to think otherwise would be silly. I should also mention that the most suspicious person during the day changes with who the mafia choose to kill at night, but I would think that goes without saying.
Now then, since you don't like where my post is going, I must say the feeling is mutual. If you're accusing me of setting up a Grek kill, then accuse me outright, please. I realize my post is all WIFOM but so is yours. If you're going to talk about Grek dying tonight, let's play out the whole WIFOM scenerio.
If Grek dies, most of you will probably suspect me as I'm the one who was giving him the most grief. But then you shouldn't suspect me because I'm not stupid enough to kill him and draw suspicion on myself. But then you should suspect me because I know that you think that I'm not stupid enough to kill him and draw suspicion on myself, so obviously I'm going to kill him because I think you think I wouldn't. But then you shouldn't suspect me because I know you know I know you think I'm not stupid enough to kill him and draw suspicion on myself, and the farmer had a dog that he loved, that ate a piece of meat, then he killed the dog, buried it, and wrote on his grave that the farmer had a dog that he loved that ate a piece of meat...
Now then, you know what else is missing from your post? The possibility of other killing roles besides Mafia. We could have a serial killer. We could have a vigilante. We don't know (and I'm not going to try to guess), but even if someone turns up dead, we wouldn't know who killed them, because on top of multiple killing roles, we might also have a roleblocker or a doctor, who may or may not prevent one or more kills, or no kills at all. So even if Grek turns up dead, and even if I killed him, it might be worse than you think or better than you think. Then again, you function under the assumption that Grek is town and has a chance of turning up dead tomorrow. How can you be so sure of this? Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. Maybe he and I really are partners, like someone mentioned before. Maybe we're masons or cops or watchers or siblings or any one of any possible number of roles that could appear in a game like this. So really, the WIFOM scenerios are even more endless then I mention.
The real reason I posted post 195, though, is because I really just don't like Grek's reasoning. His logical basis seems unthought out. (I'm not going to get back into arguing with him about lynching, though). It rubs me a the wrong way. I just think he needs to consider all the choices a bit more before he makes a blanket statement. I also happen to mostly agree with Nox.-
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Grek, could you please rephrase you last post? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Maybe I'm just tired, but I'm not sure I see the difference.
Adam, why start me on the WIFOM trail then? Also I don't get the of your first paragraph. The second, I agree that we probably only have a mafia, but thats as far as my speculation will go. I think that we'll probably get a better picture of how many killing rolls are running around after the next night.-
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I have to continue to disagree with you then. The mafia could use a player's opinions of who they say they suspect as a guide, by leaving alive a player who has suspicion on him already. They don't necessarily have to, but they could.
InHim, would you care to make a more substantial post? I know you said that you have nothing to say about players or suspicion or anything, but a longer comment on anything else would be nice.-
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How likely is he of being scum? Well, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess there are probably three, four, or five scum in this game. I'm going to go with four, as I think that seems most likely. So going with probability here, I'd say he has a 25% percent chance of being scum, if we're going with likelyhood.
Now I believe the question you're actually asking is whether I think he's scum. At the moment, I wouldn't know what I think. I think he's the player who has given me the most to argue with, and, as much as I really don't want to get back into this discussion, I still think he early actions are suspicious in nature, so my suspicion of him is not alleviated. If I had to say something, I'd say I'm leaning toward him probably being scum, but as to absolute likelihoods, well, I can't give you anything more certain than that until someone dies and I start strining together more WIFOM arguements.
If you're asking if my vote will return to him, well, that depends on how he, yourself (this is because you are replacing Ben), and a few other people decide to act.
Now then, your second question, as I don't know what Kingmaker is, I'm not sure if my answer will be up to your standards. I don't have an "execution list." There are quiet a few players I would love to hear more from (mainly everyone who hasn't posted much). I'm reserving judgement at the moment as I'm not satisfied with the amount of discussion so far. You're right, it has been mostly me and Grek arguing and other people sort of sitting on the sidelines.
Also, I have a few questions for you, since you seem to have read the thread closely enough to count my exact word usage to the point where you can indirectly go "aha! she's suspicious!" without actually saying you think so, and present me with questions asked in a leading manner.
1. what do you think of your predecessor? I'm sure we're all wondering this.
2. this execution list thing. I suppose, since you asked me, it would be only fair to ask you who you think is suspicious thus far and why? (I know that I'm probably at the top of that list, considering that you use your first game post to question me alone, but, humor me a little, please).
That's all, really. I'm going back to sleep now.-
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Because I've yet to see someone go through posts and actually count the number of times one player mentions another player's name. (Though I am new on this site, I have read through a pile of completed games to get the gist of what is supposed to be going on.) This, obviously, bothers me. Ergo I am defensive. Also suspicious.Dead Rikimaru wrote: I just asked if you think Grek is scum and who else you suspect. Normal mafia questions. If I'm not accusing you why are you so defensive?
Nice bit of analysis there, but you seem to have missed something. Ben put a vote on me. I did not have any votes prior to him. He gave, as his reason, a copy and paste of Grek's post arguing with my argument against Grek's theory and didn't explain that vote when asked about it. Now, I might be wrong, but one vote does not constitute a bandwagon. This was also before people started questioning me about arguing with Grek. Therefore I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I wasn't in any danger of being lynched right at that moment and certainly didn't have a bandwagon on me.Dead Rikimaru wrote:
In most games here at Mafia Scum you win with your side even if you die during the game. This is to incentivate players to play well and try their best to catch scum even knowing that if they play too well they will end up targeted by mafia at night.Mirth wrote: 1. what do you think of your predecessor? I'm sure we're all wondering this.
Some players seem to not think this way, and do their best to survive the more they can. A classic example would be creampuffeater in Himalayan Mafia. He didn't help the town at all, he was happy just to not be the lynch of the day and survive to see another day. Of course the mafia didn't kill him at night and he got to endgame just to lynch Twomz and handle the mafia the win.
I think ben is this kind of player. He was happy to jump on any bandwagon as soon as someone else got killed. And he didn't want to lead anything to not call mafia's attention and get nightkilled.
Also, based on his last post I think he plays mafia online on sites where the things go much faster, making his style more effective.
In other words, I don't think ben cared who got lynched.He just wanted to survive.
At least that's what I saw last time I hacked into his brain.
Following through with your bit of logic, then, if Ben really wanted a lynch that wasn't himself for the sake of having a lynch that wasn't himself, wouldn't he have voted someone with votes on them already? Like, for instance, Grek or Nox or Jex? Yet he didn't go along with the peanut gallery. Nor did he actually provide a reason for voting me. The problem with Ben was not in his vote, but rather in his lack of explanation for the vote.
So then, since your opinion references a situation that did not occur, could I ask you to please comment on Ben in this context?
Actually, I mentioned Grek's name once in that post. I'm surprised you didn't pick up on it, since you're so keen on counting the number of times I use his name. As to avoiding, I wasn't. Though, I think you'd have to agree here, it hardly matters how many times I used his name, since it's kind of obvious who I was refering to anyway.Dead Rikimaru wrote: In her last post, Mirth avoided mentioning the word Grek even once, in order to decrease her average of Grek's per post.-
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Hi, welcome to the game ^_^ I have two questions for you already.
1. if you're for moving on, whom do you purpose lynching and why?Mexal wrote: That being said, I'm all for a lynch and moving on and I think it's detrimental to the game to spend countless days and hours (it's been a month) on day 1. No progression bores people and it doesn't get us anywhere.
2. What do you think of your predecessor (I ask this of all people who replace into a game.)-
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How exactly am I contridicting myself? I said I have no feel for you. Meaning I do not have enough from you to form an opinion one way or the other. Meaning I would like to hear more from you to form an opinion one way or the other. (Note how I also asked to hear more from Zindaras a few posts ago, because I don't have an opinion there either). I'm asking for you to post because you haven't posted in a while. That's it. Why are you blowing it out of proportion?DeliciousGoldfish wrote:
Quite frankly I see this post as a contradiction in itself. Not having a feel on any of the people she posted about yet having some need for more information from myself and Pug... Well it just doesn't make sense.Mirth wrote:I dont have a feel for any of the people you mentioned, but I would very much like to hear more from Pug and Goldfish.-
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First of all, thank you for not answering my question. Also I do not understand your comments about Ben and InHim please explain them.
Second, no, I don't have a feel on everyone, but the reason I'm asking you and Pug to post is because you have a total of 8 posts. They're not very long or wordy and when I asked for you to post more, you hadn't posted for a week. Pug has 9 posts with large gaps in between them. And I remembered that the two of you hadn't posted in a while.
I don't have a significant enough feel on anyone yet as this thread is lacking conversation. But here are my opinions so far (or lack there of), if you must know:
InHim: While I don't like his wagon jumping, I think his explanations for it are valid, so, while I will be watching him closely (speaking of, I would also like to hear more from him), I don't think he's mafia at this point.
Camisade/Mexal: no opinion, and I don't feel the need to explicitly ask for opinions because Mexal seems active.
Grek: The only person who is really talking in this thread. He's the only one I really have enough material to suspect (i.e. he's the only one who posted enough for me to really attempt analyzing anything). If I would have to vote now, my vote would probably go back to Grek, but a lot of it is based on nobody else talking.
Adam: Adam strikes me as protown, as he does throw out valid questions. (I would also like to hear more from Adam, but did not feel the need to ask for a comment specifically as he post a day or two ago)
Jex: No opinion yet, but I don't feel a need to ask for posts due to recent posting.
Nox: Another person I don't have any opinion on. Speaking of which, I would really like to hear more from Nox. I didn't realize how long ago her last post was.
Zindaras: I'm a little suspicious of Zindaras for putting words in my mouth and trying to ascribe to me absolute opinions that I do not possess, but I want to hear more from him. I already asked for more posts.
Ben/DR: Not sure. Ben played poorly in the other game I was in with him, so I think that that was mostly playstyle. Haven't heard enough from DR to think anything yet.
Pug: No opinion, would like to hear more.
Haschel: not much of an opinion, but leaning toward protown for analysis posts a while back. Would like to hear more from him, and would like an explanation of his current vote on me, but don't feel the need to explicitly prod. He posted recently.
Goldfish: No opinion. Hence me asking you to post.
There you go. It pretty much boils down to "I really want to hear more from practically everyone. And I will actively ask the people who haven't posted in a while."-
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...I did not even think of that. I'm not particularly computer savvy and were I to count words, I'd be doing it manually, because up until now I didn't know there was another way to count individual words.Dead Rikimaru wrote: Not that much work.
I noticed the name Grek showed too much in your posts, so I made the forum display all posts from you, clicked control+f and counted the Grek's.
Just took few seconds, but you keep repeating and repeating this as if it were a carefully planned attack.
Also, if you had gotten the gist of what's ging on you wouldn't get overly defensive on non-attacks.
Anyone else, who? As I see it, not that many people are actually responding to anything. And I also don't see you actually answering my question. The purpose of my post is not to invalidate your point, but to point out that your reasoning is unsubtantiated and ask for an analysis of Ben consistent with what actually happened and not a theoretic cause that does not apply to this game. I also think that your opinion of Ben might be valuable in future context.DR wrote: Just because I meant he was happy to jump on any bandwagon (obviously meaning he didn't care on who he was voting, as everyone seems to have understood) you take my words out of context (as if I had said he would only vote if it was already a bandwagon) and try to make my point null by saying you had not enough votes to be considered in a bandwagon?
lol, such a boring and long way of saying nothing.
At Haschel: I think that you're doing exactly what you seem to accuse Adam of doing, i.e. attempting to define scum groups without really defining them and present your alignment as contrary to them. Just like you say Adam tries to tie me and Grek together, you're tying him in with the two of us, wheather consciously or subconsiously.-
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First of all, watch your language please.DeliciousGoldfish wrote:Mirth: I do not feel like one post about a contradiction I felt you made (which I honestly don't believe could be anymore thoroughly explained) is blowing anything out of proportion.
I simply wanted to know why if you didn't have a read on anyone you were wanting only myself and Pug to post more. I asked and received. There were no blowings or proportions anywhere. You weren't voted for or even FOSed... So unscrunch your panties.
Second, you call suspicion on me for asking to hear more from barely active players. (Yes, I count you in this category.) This strikes me as a) blowing a simple request out of proportion and b) ignoring the fact that we're on a deadline. That ends in less than 4 days, by the way. Speaking of,Mod, I know that we're not producing very much conversation here, but is there any chance of either getting rid of it or pushing it back at least? Also can you please prod Nox who hasn't posted in over a week?-
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Hmm...that really doesn't sit well with me. I know life can get hectic, but he could at least just pop in to check in here.Dead Rikimaru wrote: And after that he posted 9 more times in two days and is still ignoring this game.
Mod: could you please prod Zindaras?
Also, welcome, Oman. I know that you're still probably rereading(; I think it's safe to say that I managed to beat the Grek's-argument-sucks horse to death with a stick. And then beat it some more just to make sure it didn't get up and go hunting for brains), but I'd like to hear what you think once you're done with that.-
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Actually I did ask you for an explanation a few posts back, but I'm guessing you just must have missed that. (And, honestly, I'm much less likely to react to a vote on me then accusations that don't come with a vote. )Haschel Cedricson wrote: Of course, nobody reacted at all until now, and I forgot that I had indeed shifted to her.
Pug, I, too, would like to hear your answers to Mexal's questions.-
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I will concede that you are right on the FOS. I skimmed, I saw a bold and assumed it was a vote.DeliciousGoldfish wrote:
Get your facts straight: Jex FOSed me for lack of participation. She didn't vote for me. She even wrote "Delicious I don't really know what to think of yet. I've played with her in past games and she acts similar to what she is now. I also know that's she's really busy. I've been an RA...the first month sucks "Mirth wrote:I like how you forget to mention that Jex voted for you before I asked you to talk before Grek did a pbp of you. Just thought I'd point that out.
Also: Panties = bad language? That's honestly laughable...
Mirth is definitely squirming even though I haven't voted or even necessarily pointed any "Fingers Of Suspicion."
Also, I am not "squirming" I am calling you on reactions that I think don't make sense.
What exactly do you mean by this? Why "in games after this one"? Why not just "it is WIFOM." Your statement makes it sound like you know that Goldfish is town in this game because you exclude it from the possibility of WIFOM. Please explain yourself.Adam wrote:...And yes, I realize that in games after this one it'll be a WIFOM, so this is the last time it'll work, but I hope to just end this little dey-bah-te.-
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If you think this, could you please explain why in greater depth. Also, honestly, I don't understand why you made a scum list if you're not done with a read through. I understand noting "I think so-and-so is suspicious here" on a pbp, but by ascribing a classification one way or the other in the middle of an initial read might throw you off.Oman wrote: Scum=
Haschel (for posting without saying much)
Grek (for doing the Greky things)
and ben is on the list (for being ben)-
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While you're earned a cookie for the 1984 reference, I don't think InHim has done anything innately scummy (yet). He's most certainly not been very helpful, and I don't like his playing, yes, but I've seen a similar playstyle in protown players. I would like to here more from him (or rather his replacement, since he already gave up modding the newbie game I'm in, and I'm pretty sure he also gave up this one).oman wrote:
If you're scum it gives us hints as to your buddy? If you're town it gives us information on what you think/feel. This really is anti-town.InHim wrote:I'm assuming you know what vibes are, and so would know why I think it's silly you ask that I post them..?
Its hypocritical, as Grek posted why InHim should post and yet InHim is saying that Grek didn't read HIS posts. This just looks...weird. Its a little too obvobv scum, there is no willingness to please or empathy for other characters. I refuse to use the "too scummy to be scum" arugment and will say this looks doubleplus ungood.InHim wrote:I'm going to tactfully ignore the question, pretend you really said, "I took the time to read your posts and wish you a good night," and go to sleep.
I was under the impression that an SK has to kill everynight, so I'm going to say that unless we have more than one doctor/role-blocker, and they all got really lucky, an SK is probably unlikely. Also, if we have an SK, the SK wouldn't in fact go for more protown players. The SK would probably rather go for mafia in this game, since they are night-killing and could put an SK in more danger than a day-lynch.Oman wrote:
Mafia group (obvobv) - Misses NK for some reason(?)
Vig (pro town) - Doesn't NK N1 due to it being a stupid thing to do.
SK (anti-town) - Doesn't NK N1 due to the possibility of claiming vig later.
I'd doubt all three, so I'm going to say there is a scumgroup and a vig/SK. We should know by tomorrow (in that SK will kill more pro-town players and vig will kill scummier (WIFOM!))
I think you mean mutuallyOman wrote: You know, suspicion and desire for contriubution are not mutually exclusive. This is one of the worst deflections I've EVER seen.inclusive here
I'll need to do a reread at some point, but the next few days are going to be hard, so while I]ll be able to keep up, I won't be able to reread until probably Weds night.-
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