Genesis Mafia - Game Over!

[Vi]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Ah, I wasn't the only one going into this thinking it would be a Bible-themed game. I was hoping for a setup like

Ham (sc: Abraham)
Shechem (sc: Rebekah)
Laban (sc: Benjamin)

vs

Shem
Isaac
Israel
Joseph
Esau
Ishmael
Pharaoh
Tamar
Hagar
Leah

[Vi]

(You can't say "lol I was kidding look at how skrew overreacted though" because then UT will modkill you)

I can feel the burn radiating right off my monitor.

[Vi]

i am so totally outclassing kinetic right now

[Vi]

oh hey this game has deadlines

july 5

ut: please put the deadline in vote counts so professors paragon can fixate on them

no reason I'm bringing this up or anything

[Vi]

hamster - look elsewhere

[Vi]

Want/need more Vi.

I AM THE VINIE OF THE LAMP

WHAT IS YOUR WISH

[Vi]

Tell me who the scum are, Cloudbird!

not salamence

You are with VI trying to shut down a line of questioning, thus forcing thumb twiddling?

I was with you until "thus". I have no desire to cow you into silence. I do, however, believe that Salamence is Town enough at this time that he should not be the focus of your investigation or vote. (By implication, your case and line of questioning does not shake my belief in Salamence-Town.)

---

VI

VI

Daykill: Quaroath

talking of my Catholic credentials

(also, the cameo rap was by far the best part of that song and makes me wonder if they should have done the whole thing)

[Vi]

A truly disgusting person whose talents were squandered on being a sociopath with creeptastic habits toward women. Recipient of one of the most deserved and necessary bans we've ever made. Ruined the aesthetic sense of unicorns forever.

[Vi]

Yeah, you're right. For the record, that was a reference to someone other than RedCoyote, but shared the same initials. The post seemed like a good idea at the time, but this is me apologizing to anyone who got offended before reading this far down.

[Vi]

? I thought you wanted me

[Vi]

RedCoyote. As an alternative to arguing about Mafia theory, let's work together.

Vote: Plum

(L-6)

The state of the game as a whole is mediocre at best, actually.

Now, is that scummy/alignment related even if so? Probably not enough context for me to have a solid idea at this point

I think the excuses are all pretty worthless.

So many other more useless posts here.

It was pretty dispiriting.

It's useless. It's *all* useless.

[Vi]

These games start out slow like a graduation dance at Plum's high school.

okay you're seriously getting frigging creepy

also my vote on Plum is solid; get off your eggshells and get on my level

[Vi]

That was one of the more elaborate defenses of singling people out for being female (and narrowly avoiding singling people out for being underage) that I've read in quite a while.

[Vi]

But Vi, he mentioned my prom too!

Ah true. If he mentioned RedCoyote's prom in his next post I would have to entirely recant my accusation of personal untowardness.
In fact, since he suggested that Plum had a date on his prom and you did not, what he said was actually

elevating

her status; a compliment.

[Vi]

But real talk. What we're getting out of this is a huge distraction that's going to bury and demoralize the game. This show needs to end and not come back.

[Vi]

I never made a case on Plum. That stuff after the vote was me trolling, like I've been doing for most of the game.

But Plum's posts really do look like they're coming from scum.

[Vi]

RedCoyote, I have an offer for you.
Sometime in the near future, I'd like to confer with you to try to sort this game out. We'd both need to be online and equipped with free time simultaneously.

who the fuck is LLC?

limited license cat

[Vi]

RedCoyote, I have an offer for you.
Sometime in the near future, I'd like to confer with you to try to sort this game out. We'd both need to be online and equipped with free time simultaneously.

Offer accepted. It's funny you bring this up now as I'm having second thoughts on Plum (see: 198).

Now, or later?

[Vi]

Okay.

Let's first start by cutting the thread off at post 200. Anything that's posted started on page 9 doesn't count. The entire point of the lurk-and-see approach basically everyone has taken so far is to observe, not perturb; Heisenberg etc. etc. Since we're having a public conversation, people can and will try to speak in their benefit. Let's not care about that until we're done.

---

The first thought I had was to assume three scum and then try to split everyone up into what kind of role they've played thus far. I'm sure we're all big boys and fluffbirds and won't get hung up on things I don't say, like "there must be one scum in each group", but it's not a bad starting point for thought.

The first group's an easy one.

RedCoyote
Vi

If at some point we run out of people we think are scum, it -might- be someone in that group. Of course, I'm not just saying that as an instruction to you. Get the point?

Now, after that,

Salamence
Albert B. Rampage
Quaroath
SleepyKrew

These are the people who have been active participants and/or have tried to make cases on others. They're playing a standard active game.

Then there's...

Master Zik
vezokpiraka
Juls
Plum

...the nonentities-of-sorts. People who have posted several times, but have contributed essentially little but their votes so far. vezokpiraka will probably contest his listing here but it's

my

list so etc.

And finally there's...

Lady Lambdadelta
Jazzmyn
Kinetic

...the people who scratch zero on the everything-o-meter.

I'll also add the two wagons thus far.

RedCoyote - 4 (Master Zik, Salamence20, Juls, LLD)

Plum - 4 (Vi, Juls, RedCoyote, vezok)

It's unlikely, but possible, for any one of these wagons to be all-Town. It's even less likely that all five people in either quote are all Town (though, again, possible).

I don't have a solid scumread on anyone in the top group, the active group. I agree with everyone else that Quaroath looks Town. Everyone else frankly worries me and I think we'd all be doomed if we left the game to them. However, I'm not going to try to suss out something I don't see immediately on my first pass.

The second group is the most interesting of the bunch because it's where scum stereotypically lie. Master Zik is my current pocket scumread, because seriously look at those posts. That Town read on Plum is bollocks (nay, balderdash). I'm wary of vezokpiraka because his play ITT is several steps above what I remember it being the last time we met; however, I've nothing to hold against him. Juls has done shockingly little in this game and there's actually not much reason to believe she's not scum. Plum is more or less Juls with more posts and a lot more words; the exception is the first block of 181 which you may read as genuine Town frustration at your discretion.

As for the third group - Lady Lambdadelta is either really bored Town or really bored scum. (Just once I want to see that sinister manipulation she's so proud of~) She'll make herself an entity at some point, admittedly two or three game Days down the road. Jazzmyn is, like, the easiest target ever. Getting angry at ABR the way she did is entirely within her parameters from what I remember of her; that says nothing about her amazing ability to say as little as possible up until this point. Kinetic totally won a Scummy for impressive Town play once, gaiz. Basically, all of these would be fun people to bully around with wagons

Obviously, calling the team isn't necessary. But, on my first pass, I'd say Today's lynch should be within {Master Zik, Juls, Plum}.

Your thoughts?

[Vi]

MUST.
NOT.
MAKE.
UMINEKO.
JOKE.

MUST.
NOT.
POST.
RED.
TEXT.

MUST.
NOT.
GET.
SITE.
BANNED.

(why is life so hard Vi? I wasn't abusing Red Text at all! It was everyone else who was )

I really do wish that I could finish Umineko so I could grab a sprite pack without being spoiled. Battler's smirk-grin would have been ideal for that post where I voted Plum.

[Vi]

I don't think you were in the game I played with Jazzmyn (it predates the first game I played with you). But it looked like that.

I think I've only played games with LLD where she's lurked. :ponyshrug: Modded games are something else but etc.

If we agree, then what's left is picking one person and stepping on them in a manner most cruel. I'm not attached to having three suspects at this point and thus don't care much about swapping Kinetic in so much as adding. Do you have a preference?

[Vi]

please dont wall

[Vi]

That's a rather curious waffle for placing a vote, especially after your post 198. Really?

I think our inklings are ,

pro squid kid

[Vi]

Jazzmyn is, again, the easiest target ever. I don't think that talking about her at length would be difficult to do as scum.

I don't have a problem with Plum 186 but it's nothing to flip a read over IMO.

[Vi]

Let me phrase things differently, then.

Master Zik. Juls. Plum. Kinetic. Please pick one, vote them if you haven't already, and start pushing them. It's time to turn this game from a playful slapfight into something like the last twenty minutes of the Blues Brothers movie. The person you pick won't -necessarily- get lynched but if it doesn't happen it'll be because something super-enlightening has happened. As for me, I think that we've seen enough of each player's deliberate actions that I'm comfortable voting out any of the three players I named.

If you don't feel comfortable choosing someone, then I'll choose with the expectation that you'll join my vote.

[Vi]

Actually before I get to RCisms...

Vi, why are you townreading RC. Its never explained.
Do you think we are TvT here?

I think so. I think RedCoyote has seen me be impressively wrong with my Town reads before (on him specifically) (and my scum reads on him specifically too) but I don't think that's the case this time.

[Vi]

Unvote: Plum
Vote: Kinetic

(L-4)

[Vi]

I really hope that's more fun to read than ABR's nonsense.

Is it, though?

[Vi]

Those last two are prime grade PEACH quality.:

I'm not sure if you're lacking your posts with fruit jokes. If you're not, please do.

[Vi]

Those last two are prime grade PEACH quality.:

I'm not sure if you're

lacing

your posts with fruit jokes. If you're not, please do.

EBWOP

[Vi]

I have gone through the thread and everyone's ISOs, so my reads are developing. At this point, several are in the neutral category, of course, but a few are scum-leaning and a couple are town-leaning.

That's a lot of Town-leaning reads you've got there.

[Vi]

That's a lot of Town-leaning reads you've got there.

You're joking, right?

Regards,
Jazz

It's more aligned with sarcasm.

I'll say it more plainly. That's not a very difficult post for scum to make.

[Vi]

It's more aligned with sarcasm.

I'll say it more plainly. That's not a very difficult post for scum to make.

It wasn't an easy one for town to make, given that it took me several hours of combined reading and thinking to make it.

If we are to gauge posts on the basis of "not very difficult for scum to make", that would include every post in the thread so far, including all of your own.

Regards,
Jazz

Scum can take several hours to read and think about a post, and ultimately come up with one that says "basically everyone is scummy". 273 is the second post where you have said essentially that.

[Vi]

Scum can take several hours to read and think about a post, and ultimately come up with one that says "basically everyone is scummy". 273 is the second post where you have said essentially that.

With all due respect, that is nonsense.

I took the time required to read the thread and everyone's ISOs, and to think about them and the interactions to date because that is the best way I know to try to find scum. I am suspicious of you, and most others, because the only player's alignment of which I am certain is my own.

Regards,
Jazz

>Come to conclusion that everyone is scummy
>Put in several hours of :effort: to read the game
>Come to conclusion that everyone is scummy

[Vi]

Nah, don't respond to the previous post. Try this one instead.

Why should I or anyone else vote for someone other than you?

[Vi]

Sometimes I wonder if I am too casual... I can't find the balance between being too casual and being too serious. :/

trolling IS the answer

If I ask the same question of you, that is, "Why should I or anyone else vote for someone other than you?" I wonder if your answer would be any different than mine?

It would be.

[Vi]

It would be.

Would you care to share with the class, or are you content with silly non-responsive posts?

Regards,
Jazz

I'll take the latter. This conversation ceased being productive several posts ago.

[Vi]

For now we need to focus on finding scum. Why are you voting for Vi?

ah, the feeling when you want to lead someone to things that are so much more productive

and then the other party n e v e r responds

You should talk to me! *\o/*

[Vi]

...damn it, Vi.

I would prefer not to be held responsible for anything ABR posts, at least in part because other people have free agency.

Why is Kinetic scum? (that's where your vote is yeah?)

That's a good question for RedCoyote to answer, since a fair amount of why my vote is on Kinetic is because he directed me there. The reason why he's being targeted seems easy enough; he never left the "lol let's say as little as possible because I'm ~so good~" phase; in addition, zakk not catching up in a timely manner isn't encouraging. As for whether it's the -best- vote, you don't have to read too far between the lines to see that Kinetic wasn't exactly one of my first choices.

Talking of, RedCoyote is someone who should have a pretty good idea of how I respond to flattery and flowery rhetoric. I'm pretty sure this is the first game after our first together where I haven't tried to drive him into the ground with gleeful malice (so far).

---

I need more time to re-evaluate things. I think I should be around tonight and we (me+LLD) can discuss the game.

[Vi]

LLD - I'm here for whenever you're around, although I plan to have a firm bedtime tonight.

[Vi]

LLD - I'm here for whenever you're around, although I plan to have a firm bedtime tonight.

Alright, hit me.

Where do you want to start?

Sorry for the delay - I got pulled away. Let's try this.

Would you say that Jazzmyn is substantially more likely than random to be Town?

[Vi]

Okay.

Following from that, there are three people who are voting for Jazzmyn. There are a few people jeering from the sidelines but three people are on the jazz. They are Albert B. Rampage, vezokpiraka, and Quaroath.

Based specifically on how they jumped on Jazzmyn - I linked the preceding Jazz posts but you can do your own research if you like - which of these would you say is scum, or most likely to be scum? (I have my own thoughts, but I'll wait for yours.)

[Vi]

It was a leading question, because I forgot where I was going with this chain. :/
What I meant to ask was "do you think the wagon is all Town" and at the time I thought of this Quaroath wasn't on the wagon.

The conclusion would have been "if you think there's one scum who opportunistically jumped on Jazzmyn then speaking strictly from probability we should be voting one of them".

That aside, your answer wasn't quite what I was expecting. I would have said vezokpiraka, followed by ABR, followed a long way off by the hamster. I'm rather conscious of my dereliction of duty in suspecting the hamster, but vezokpiraka's jump really was super-blatant (essentially the old scum trope of VOTE: because obvscum).

That leads me to
1) Would you like to vote vezokpiraka?
2) Why do you think we're dealing with an eeeeevil hamster?

[Vi]

Also, as before, Jazzmyn is a super-easy target and if she's Town I'd be surprised if zero scum have tried to take the bait.

(granted Juls and Kinetizakk aren't here and SKrew is lurking)

[Vi]

See, when

I

read "pressure" I interpret it to refer to the tension of a rope against someone's neck.

Unvote: zakk
Vote: vezokpiraka

(L-3)

I only just noticed that there are already people on this wagon. Even better

[Vi]

Vi are you town?

It's pretty obvious tbh.

You keep saying

[that I, Jazzmyn, am an easy target]

, but I do not understand it. What do you mean?

Your play thus far is largely based on saying "everyone is scummy" and yelling at people who accuse you. Finding logical errors to nitpick is pretty easy to do, and one person has even voted you out of sheer annoyance. In other words, if someone wanted to vote you, they could find reasons to do it without trying very hard or catching much blame.

Wtf Vi?

You've played with me before. You are very good at scumhunting. So why the vote on me? This happens every game where I'm town. Scum pile up on me.

The thing is I know I'm town. It doesn't make sense for Vi to vote me at all.

So to clarify, "Vi is scum because Vi would not vote for me as Town".

Have we met?

VI

VI

VI

VI

VI

VI

VI

VI

Daykill: zakk

I... actually have to echo vezokpiraka 447. That reads list is a work of modern art, and there are so many things wrong with it, but... it's... trying.

LLD, I have to call you back. What do you think of my previous scumlist of {Master Zik, Juls, Plum}?

Unvote: vezokpiraka

until I get back in.

[Vi]

And yet the most interesting post in that wall was ABR's.

Vote: Plum

(L-4)

[Vi]

Everyone looks like they're having fun and I hate to break in while I'm at work, but at four votes I believe I need to say -

Part of my role is that I take one fewer vote to lynch. I'm presently at L-2.

If there's such demand to start laying on defenses and etc., I'll be around tonight.

[Vi]

Yep. I'll give a more through response in a few hours. I apologize for coming across as patronizing, though.

[Vi]

Okay. I'll go through each person in turn and then provide my own thoughts. Hopefully this won't take all night.

[Vi]

WRT Albert B. Rampage -

I did indeed say in post 204 that Jazzmyn was a net zero who could be fun to wagon for reactions. That's because at that time, Jazzmyn had indeed done less than zero. By the time Jazzmyn had gotten votes, she had posted substantially more. Circumstances changed entirely, and so my opinion changed entirely. I'm at a loss as to how the very concept of "context" eludes you in good faith.

In addition, there's an vital concept that I'm probably going to be repeating shortly with Master Zik if memory serves. A wagon on someone is good if it's on scum or if it leads to the outing of scum. A wagon for bad play on someone who's Town is not a good wagon. As I believe I've mentioned previously, Jazzmyn's behavior in this game is not outside my understanding of her Town meta. I've seen (in a game where I didn't quite draw Town, no less) her arguments completely wreck a Day 1 in a 1v1 with another Townie, right up to deadline. Keeping that in mind, the reasons you gave for the Jazzmyn wagon are--

(being purposely inflammatory, inciting LLD to lash out, encouraging chaos, doing very little scumhunting)

--which are not only things that aren't terribly surprising, they're also things that Jazzmyn has no monopoly on (ABR and myself are on this list as well). This is a playstyle lynch

which is a great example of an easy lynch

.

So you mean to tell me that you're pushing a playstyle lynch on someone and you're willing to push it with two-word posts from the sidelines until some other easy target comes up, at which time you come up with a case that essentially relies on time travel. I will be surprised and disappointed if this is not the worst logic I encounter going up the thread.

[Vi]

WRT Salamence--

'Sup. Pressure vote, or is there something in particular you'd like to see?

[Vi]

WRT Master Zik--

WRT me and the Jazzwagon - Yep. I did that. I've already acknowledged that I botched my second question to LLD, which as I originally formulated it wasn't leading on its own. We seem to agree that vezokpiraka's vote looked bad; reading that this morning was what got me to wonder about whether that would be the best place to go. I'm curious as to how you got your Town read on ABR, because I'm not seeing it and haven't been seeing it for a while.

WRT Salamence20 - I'm assuming that you're calling Salamence a potential scumread because of his position on the vezokpiraka wagon without much else to go on?

WRT LLD and me voting vezokpiraka - On the one hand, yes, that happened. On the other hand, what you seem to have missed was that I offered LLD the vezokpiraka wagon first. That wasn't exactly "Ooh, three-vote wagon! :SCORE:" ; it was pretty clearly telegraphed what I would do, especially if you saw what I did with RedCoyote. In addition, I did express an unease with vezokpiraka when I was talking to RedCoyote, precisely because his play is immensely different from what I remember. The last time I played with him he was a policy lynch, the last time I modded over him he was quicklynched Day 1 for screwing up an endgame super-badly, and now I'm reading about him in passing something-something-carrying scumteams. (Or was vezokpiraka in MafiaScum Fantasy Camp I? In that case, he was a policy lynch that also did a pretty sweet scum job.)

I'll also follow all of that up by saying that vezokpiraka's posts following zakk's entrance looked superTown.

WRT throwing shade on LLD's Town-read of Jazzmyn - That's... actually not true. What did I say to suggest that?

WRT "I have my thoughts, but I'll wait for yours" - In case it wasn't evident, I definitely already had a conclusion formed and wanted to see if LLD accepted the steps that led me to it. The reason why it was evident should have been my surprise when she didn't reach the same conclusion I did.

WRT me trying to get LLD to consider people other than me - I'm including this for completeness only in case someone tries to latch onto it. Let's not argue over people trying to suggest that other people could be scum, because down that road lies MADNESS, and in a game about Genesis our house is not in the middle of the street.

WRT daykilling - Please don't. This game has enough wanton disrespect.

[Vi]

WRT zakk--

WRT self-awareness - That's me normally. Hi, I'm Vi; pleased to meet you. Although I'd probably be a lot better at this game if I could perfectly calibrate my posts to get the reader to feel a certain way; it seems like I've been aggressively scoring negative points on that front in my last few games.

WRT post 187 -

I never made a case on Plum. That stuff after the vote was me trolling, like I've been doing for most of the game.

But Plum's posts really do look like they're coming from scum.

This isn't distancing from the wagon, especially not considering I affirmed that I wanted to be on the wagon

in that same post

. It was, however, intended to open a route to make the people who had also joined the Plum wagon answer for it (Juls, RedCoyote, vezokpiraka). This particularly came off of Salamence20 saying that he didn't like how three people had sheeped me onto Plum.

WRT four suspects rather than three being a sign of experience and/or scum - If it's what you're thinking of, I'm not trying to call the team. That scum list was casting a net toward the people most likely to be scum. Adding someone (as a bit of a really disappointing compromise) was just part of doing business with RedCoyote.

WRT asking if Jazzmyn is substantially more likely than random to be Town - Mafia theory. Assuming three scum, any given other player has a 75% chance of being Town (which I think I'm going to come back to later). Going higher than that is pretty meaningful. (Of course, I won't vouch that LLD took it that way.)

WRT pulling people aside to talk to them - If you think that's a cheap way to score Town points, it is... if you're Town and know what you're doing. If either of those don't hold, you're in trouble. I'm biased here because sussing people in Neighborhoods is my specialty.

WRT giving Plum something to latch onto - That's something she did of her own volition.

WRT alternating bussing-and-buddying Plum - This is me viciously judging you for making a pre-flip association tell. Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a flip. Although I'm tempted to do it too.

[Vi]

WRT Jazzmyn--

Initially, I was suspicious of Vi but I couldn't really articulate my reasons for it (as I mentioned at the time); it was an overall thing, for soft sorts of reasons, the kind that give you that niggling feeling but you have to let it percolate for a while to see which way it goes. It included the 'fluffiness' of many of her posts, her trying to shut others down from making their own inquiries of players aside from those that she personally wanted to focus on, the way she seemed to expect others to just follow her lead and leave their own reads at the door, that kind of thing. Then last night, all she did was fill her posts with strawmen, toss out one liners, and try to disparage others instead of trying to shed light. This appeared to me to be her way of trying to throw mud at the wall illegitimately while simultaneously avoiding answering questions herself.

I can't speak much to GUT! >:D
I believe I've already explained my post telling Quaroath to not scumhunt someone who's Town.
I would genuinely prefer people to follow me, but I'd also like their input in steering me. That's why I'm taking the time to go speak to my Town reads.
On Sunday evening, I tried to poke into your catch-up post and wound up in precisely the quagmire I've already referenced, at which time I tried to get the heck out (admittedly not gracefully). It seems to have helped others get reads on you; in exchange I got your vote. Too bad I'm Hated (the role modifier), or I'd consider it a good trade.

@UT: Please provide a good "haters gonna hate" .gif

_______________________

[Vi]

And finally, my own reads, in the order that I remember they exist.

*LLD is superTown. I don't think this is her bluffing, and if she is, welp.
*Salamence20's opening looked pretty Town and Quaroath's attempt to call it otherwise was really bad. I admit I'm biased toward the whole "modkill" thing given my own negative modifier even though roles != alignments, etc.
*Jazzmyn's play, as mentioned previously, isn't outside her Town meta. I don't have experience with her as scum, but on this I'm willing to go with LLD.
*RedCoyote is someone whose flowery buddyish rhetoric never ceases to make me want to blanch his skull and use it as a novelty pencil holder. However, post 124 closely mirrored what I was trying to do with the game and I flipped my scumread on him around then, and it seems that he did the same in return. I'm not totally impressed with how our 1v1 time went, so I acknowledge that this could be a blind spot for me, but I want to call Town here. (Unless I'm getting a super-double-bluff in 226, which would be positively hilarious.)
*vezokpiraka, as mentioned previously, had a super-Town response to zakk's entrance. I really want to be really cautious about his play up to and through his Jazzmyn vote, but... I'm going to say the odds favor Town.
*zakk, as mentioned previously, had a good entrance (with bad logic in many places). I'm okay with writing Kinetic off.
*Master Zik had a really awful entrance and I'm not at all enamored with his penchant for wallposts, tunneling, or questionable logic. However, I'll acknowledge that his vote on me could have come from a human being of sound mind, so I'm fine with setting him aside for now.
*Quaroath is someone I'll withhold judgment on until LLD explains. I thought probTown but I'm willing to reconsider.
*SleepyKrew is past his expiration date. I'm not enamored with people who promise to catch up, but don't. I know there are RL issues going on, but etc.
*Albert B. Rampage looks like the definition of opportunistic scum for reasons I mentioned in my post to him. I am quite interested in what LLD sees in him.

@mod: Please confirm that the most recent vote count is correct, as ABR should be voting for me as far as I know.

*Plum has been awkwardly on the sidelines trying to find a good place to sneak in without attracting much attention - and failing. I mentioned one instance of Towniness with RedCoyote, but other than that, her recent activity has involved sniping at Jazzmyn and vezokpiraka. Probscum.
*Juls is the person who's left, on V/LA. Her posts in isolation are not impressive at all, and she was on rather opportunistic hops on the first two wagons. I'm not totally convinced that she's scum, but it's beyond something that would surprise me.

The thought that's fascinating me right now is that there are 13 players, but probably only three are scum. That means that at most ten and at least eight of us (depending on the alignments of Juls and SleepyKrew) are talking past each other. I think we're actually not that far off from winning if we can focus on the people we agree on.

For me, that means Plum and ABR. I'm not confident enough in someone to name a third. However, I think that barring something super-compelling I won't vote outside those two today.

---

Im mainly voting Vi because I dont like the plum vote

What's not to like? It's got Plum, it's got votes, etc.

[Vi]

I am such incredibly obvious Town that I am actually bitter and disgusted with myself.

[Vi]

That image is... more than what I was expecting.

[Vi]

That image is... more than what I was expecting.

...to the point where I should specify--I requested an image on a whim in response to my Hated modifier, and not as a retort toward Jazzmyn.

[Vi]

Anyway I feel your reads are just surface deep so you can claim you changed them when it suits. I don't see you committing to anyone and this isn't right.

...you say after post 479

I haven't said much about vez, but Sal turned me onto him a few pages ago.

Where, specifically?

---

There are not nearly enough votes on Plum and ABR and the bandwagoning on this page is going the wrong way.

[Vi]

You are mistaken.

[Vi]

Self-preservation, scum, or just terrible?

My phone considered Swype-translating "terrible" to "reinoe", which etc.

[Vi]

He probably thinks this post is about him. (it is)

Your concerns suck, frankly. I even went to the trouble of detailing where I stand with everyone and as appropriate when those stances changed. While I have expressed a definite direction on where I want to go today, I reserve the right to change those reads and my direction as new information comes in not because I'm scum but because I'm an intelligent human being. I also reserve the right to disagree with people when they vote me, and I reserve the right to discredit people when they vote me for stupid reasons.

[Vi]

Just thought of something. If VI actually IS a hated Townie, then VI is someone we definitely don't want in endgame, because MyLo becomes LyLo, and LyLo is an auto-loss.

VI, pick a pronoun.

How about no?

Like to everything in here. Just no.

I agree on all counts with LLD.

Post 504 was about vezokpiraka. Plum's post did nothing for me and I think she accepts that. ABR's 508 is also basically conceding defeat.

[Vi]

On that note, may I ask why you're continuing to capitalize both letters of my name?

[Vi]

Well, two things here.

First - I intentionally have not placed a pronoun in my profile. You are welcome to choose one of your own, or follow the lead of others who have chosen for themselves, or even get to know me at some point and make a decision based on that.

Second - Look at it from this angle. If I'm scum, you should be able to deduce that without needing to rely on a Hated claim to justify it. If I'm Town, then given my experience onsite, I know just how bad a Hated role can potentially be and would advocate for a policy lynch on myself if I thought it were the best play, yet I'm not.

Plus, if you're agreeing with ABR in this game, you're doing something wrong. ABR is, like, really obvious scum.

[Vi]

Oh hey there are fewer than two days until deadline. It's time for people to stop lurking.

I suppose there's something to these requests.

Mod: Please extend the deadline by 24 hours to accommodate Juls' V/LA.

This should probably give her about a day and a half to get together. Of course, since I'm accusing her of being scum, this is a request made to my detriment, but I'm willing to do it, because only lurkers, idiots, and scum are voting me.

Mod: Please prod SleepyKrew with intent to replace overNight.

Mod: Please prod Master Zik

, who is currently lurking his pants off.

As for my part, given vezokpiraka's recent posting I will at the very least not protest that wagon.

[Vi]

@vi: you are voting plum. Om the same wagon as juls. You think people bus that hard?

Heaven

forbid

one scum person places a vote on another scum person and then goes on V/LA for a week and a half.

[Vi]

Not lynching people is bo~ring. This doesn't change any of my reads at all.

Vote: Plum

(L-5)

But RC's iso did make me think, is Vi playing off townies, since she knows RC/LLD are town?

I can't tell if I'm annoyed at this line of thought or SUPER STOKED THAT I'M A MASTER OF MANIPULATION

YEAAAAAAAAAAAH

but I honestly thought RC/Vi

how do you even this

[Vi]

ABR

[...is...]

town.

It's posts like this that make me wonder if I've been posting in the wrong thread all this time and everyone has been too polite to tell me.

[Vi]

VOTE: sk

read on plum, please

Town taking heat over something trivial.

Vi, I see you. Tell me why SK is town

I've said no such thing. I'm on a pretty plum wagon though; it's on someone whose play has been super sidelinestastic and mostly effortless.

[Vi]

VOTE: sk

read on plum, please

Town taking heat over something trivial.

Vi, I see you. Tell me why SK is town

I've said no such thing. I'm on a pretty plum wagon though; it's on someone whose play has been super sidelinestastic and mostly effortless.

The same could be said about sk?

SKrew is -trying- to be bad at Mafia.

[As a result of replacing SleepyKrew assuming he i]

s scum, we

[the Town]

would have a more challenging game, and it would only be fair to his teammates.

so much hubris

Let me check something. Is your read on SKrew based on anything particular to this thread, and have you seen any completed SKrew-scum games?

[Vi]

Where is your Town read on SKrew coming from, then?
Who are the scum pushing SleepyKrew? (or vezokpiraka for that matter)

[Vi]

Having reread the thread in its entirety, Juls appears to me to me to be very strongly scum. Kinetic/zakk also appears to me to be very strongly scum.

Regards,
Jazz

Make that Juls/singersigner.

Regards,
Jazz

Could you please explain why zakk and why not Albert B. Rampage?

[Vi]

Could you please explain why zakk and why not Albert B. Rampage?

Albert is scummy too, but zakk is stuck with Kinetic both fibbing and fluffing up a storm, and I have never known Kinetic to do that as town.

Regards,
Jazz

So literally nothing zakk has done changes your read on that slot? You're going to hold onto that and not read anything else?

So your list o' reads that you're willing to do something about now consists of

two

people who aren't able to defend themselves while you leave off the people who are both here and (according to both you and me) still scummy.

Really?

---

How is it hubris?

I missed this the first time. As Town, asking for a tougher game means

losing

.

And, really? You're going to go to all the effort of pointing out SKrew as being a scum-motivated wagon while voting me? (This is, I think, what the hamster is trying to say)

---

My my, aren't you

[Vi]

being rather inquisitive for not having any strong opinions of your own that you are pushing.

I originally thought this was Master Zik making this post, but it's you and I think you're Town, so I'm going to call you a dumbass.

Now tell me who's already on the Plum wagon you're pushing, and who has been repeating several times now that Plum and ABR are scum and angling to get people on either of those wagons, and who has been putting themselves on the line multiple times to try to connect with Town reads (the more controversial of which has already been vindicated).

Why did you say Albert there and not Plum, when you are voting for Plum?
Or are you just trying to make Albert look bad to Jazzmyn here?

Jazzmyn had already expressed suspicion of ABR, and then stopped. I'm interested in people who voice support for voting ABR because he's scum because

omg I can have multiple scumreads

, and I noticed it.

Talking of, if at any point someone can

explain

how ABR is not scum - because there are a lot of people saying that for some reason - it would be much appreciated.

LLD

, please feel free to join in.

And with all that said, I will note that Jazzmyn expressed an interest in Plum before and I would like to extend several seats on the wagon for her choosing.

And why are you soft-defending me? Trying to get on my good side?

The long answer is that I will defend people I think are Town because not lynching Town is a good thing.

The short answer, the answer I wanted to post first, is that you are a dumbass for actually thinking this is a thing that happens. Take

that

to your good side.

[Vi]

i'm getting increasingly bored of this game

where are the players, where is the activity?

why doesn't anyone really actively want to lynch plum?

hi, come talk to me.

I'm here, I'm bored too, I actively want to lynch Plum. Stop thinking I'm scummy; let's work together.

[Vi]

Please

stop thinking I'm scummy; let's work together.

Climbing back on the civility wagon.

[Vi]

Okay fine. But only because you said please.

Why do you think ABR is scummy, I get the exact opposite.

ABR's play is easy like Sunday morning.

*vote the person who says easily punishable things
*vote Vi when convenient (for reasons that are best explained with the level of reasoning I'd expect from a seven-year-old)
*has spent the Day lurking instead of pushing his wagon
*only stops lurking to post about how he's being

oppressed

by the SJWs

Your turn. Why is ABR Town? (it's like I have to ask this question a dozen times and maybe once I'll get an answer)

Is Lambda always this abrasive? Are you?

If you think LLD is being abrasive, you have no idea.
I'm actually doing my best to be nice in this game - I think that telling people what's on my mind with

too

much relish is counterproductive. I openly flamed you in my previous post to see if that would get through to you.

Who do you think is ignoring the Plum wagon most deliberately?

ABR. LLD perhaps. SKrew. These are actually the people who have avoided taking any stand on Plum at all.

Like, Plum basically checked out of this game 2/3 of the way through Day 1. I interpret that as meaning she's out of options except lurking.

Why do you agree with me on Plum, but think the rest of my reads are bad?

Master Zik being most Town is questionable. ABR as being third-most Town is questionable. Jazzmyn and me as scum are pretty questionable. The things you think are tells that you're latching onto aren't very good at times. Sample from a line I picked more or less at random:

1) tries to play up the "I'm old school" card a little too much.
Her and VI harping on about the "creepy" thing got old super fast and
2) seemed like a distraction
3) or perhaps a bus

The only one of these three that is actually worth considering for more than a second is 2).

What's your read on Juls/signer? Why?

I thought Juls was pretty overeager to jump on wagons early on, and not posting

at all

during V/LA was disappointing. However, I don't know if I'd expect scum to say "five pages behind but I thought it was RC/Vi " unprompted to start Day 2; leaning toward no.

What's your opinion on Sleepy, both alignment and lurking?

I

third

the request to replace him forcibly.

[Vi]

Jazzmyn - I did not see 256 previously. Now that you've linked the games in question, I understand and acknowledge where you're coming from, and will not defend Kinetic's play. However, you have made at most a rather obscure reference to anything zakk has ever posted (in post 539), and I am concerned that you are not considering any of zakk's posts at all. It is my opinion that zakk's play on its own is strongly Townish. This is to such a degree that even after seeing what you have linked, I believe his slot is Town.

I maintain my disappointment and suspicion about how your top two suspects are literally unable to respond to anything you bring against them, especially since you say that you have many other people you think are scummy yet are not engaging them. To be honest, I think that your vote on zakk is futile at best, and would invite you to either join the Plum wagon or place it on someone who is more likely to gain traction Today.

---

On the other hand, putting my weight around on other people who make me twitch is far more valuable.

NOW STREAMING: =^Cat on a lap^=

[Vi]

Jazzmyn, could you please respond w.r.t. zakk's play?

[Vi]

Okay. Then, let's do this.
For the record, I'm only staying up this late and laying this out because I'm going Full Town Mode.

[Wheel of Fortune sound effect]

[go to KLAS and you'll hear it dozens of times per minute]

Vi -

Town

zakk -

Town

Lady Lambdadelta -

Town

Jazzmyn -

Town

Juls (singersigner) -

Leaning Town

Quaroath -

Leaning Town

Master Zik -

Leaning Town per LLD

Salamence20 -

Leaning Town?

SleepyKrew -

Remainder

Albert B. Rampage (Nachomamma8) -

Scum

Plum -

Scum

Ignoring the zakk read if you like, would this work?

I'm not actually totally on board with SKrew being scum, but having had the experience of idiot scumpartners trying to turbobus me Day 1 on multiple occasions, I'm not ready to write it off.

[Vi]

Master Zik -

Leaning Town per LLD

per LLD?? even though she was foaming at the mouth saying he was scum? when I was calling him town literally the entire time?

YUP THAT MAKES SENSE VI

This is not important for my ego, it irks me for another reason; you could have said "per zakk" just as easily, but you namedropped LLD like you are buddying up to her

(and okay maybe she wasn't foaming at the mouth but you get the picture)

Explain.

One of my top tier skillz involves reading posts.

(tbh, that was a lazy toss onto the list - I don't actually buy what she's taking in, but I'm also conflicted about Zik)

Also I just thought of something. Why is nobody commenting on the vezopiraka wagon. That was pretty bad.

Let me know who the scum are on it, rather than just saying "lol there should be scum here".

What did working with RC get you?

And what did it get RC, other than dead?

I'm not sure if you've missed this planetary-destroyer-size aspect of my play but bouncing ideas off of people helps me keep things sorted and gets people more or less on board with what I have to say. It also won me the attention of a certain moron who seems to genuinely think that RedCoyote was killed because I called him Town. (The only reason I have to guess for why RC was killed was role-hunting.)

I won't answer for RedCoyote beyond super-solidifying a correct Town read on me.

---

Master zakk, you can't call Plum and Vi both scum at the same time. Plum looks like the designated mislynch. Either way, this does not look like a bus. Don't you find this suspicious?

lol
if I thought it would work I would start wagons on all three of my Town reads just so you'd call them Town

---

This is ABR's towngame, pure and true. He's been so apathetic about scumgames lately that he doesn't get emotionally invested enough in games as scum to let the crazy come on out. His play in Nightless was similar to what you're describing (GreyICE compared him to an Al Qaeda terrorist) and, lo and behold, town. His play in Curse of the Werewolves, a recent Pick Your Poison... not so much.

Would you please provide links.
In addition, you're also going to need to provide someone to take your place on the scum list. That would be much more interesting.

---

LLD. Please go back here. What happened to your suspicion of Zik here?

[Vi]

<from this morning>
I only just now noticed that this game has a Zik and a zakk.

RedCoyote

- 4 (Master Zik, Salamence20, Juls,

LLD

)

Kinetic

- 4 (

Plum,

RedCoyote, Vi,

Salamence20)

Jazzmyn

- 3 (ABR,

vezok,

Quaroath)

Plum

- 3 (Juls,

zakk,

Vi

)

vezokpiraka

- 7 (

LLD,

Quaroath,

RedCoyote,

Plum,

Salamence20,

Jazzmyn,

SleepyKrew)

Vi

- 3 ([Salamence20], Master Zik, ABR,

vezok

)

*ABR not present for final vezokpiraka wagon push

zakk

- 1 (

Jazzmyn

)

Vi

- 1 (Master Zik)
SleepyKrew - 2 (Plum, Salamence)

Plum

- 5 (

Vi,

zakk,

Quaroath,

LLD,

Nacho)

singersigner/Juls and SleepyKrew not voting

*It's not out of the question for the Jazzwagon to be all Town. This is distinct from saying that the Jazzwagon WAS all Town.
*I don't think Juls is scum, and I would be offended if there were no scum on the Vi wagon, so it seems fair to say that there were two scum on the vezo wagon. I'm willing to see what happens if I remove the hamster from my blind Town-pass list. So, {Master Zik/ABR, Plum, Salamence/SleepyKrew/Quaroath}.
*While I'd ordinarily be somewhat wary of this L-1 Plum wagon, it looks p.solid.

---

[immediately following LLD and Nacho having a super-Town-looking conversation]

I hope we have gained much from that conversation.

can we please lynch this
this and the other posts are what scum do during super-Town conversations (i.e. nothing of consequence)

cat why are you Townreading this person
are you high on the nip

[Vi]

seagulling

I

like

this term.

I need to take the morning off. I agree with zakk's post above mine, though.

[Vi]

Unvote: Plum

Vote may very well go back later but I don't want the Day to end until I get back in.

[Vi]

seagulling

I

like

this term.

Personally, I find you two incredibly creepy.

Well -that- was a very short-lived part of my vocabulary.

[Vi]

I'm still super-tired but people are posting so I'll play too.

*Zik is still teh scum. LLD please to stop be the quiet about this.
*I agree entirely with LLD's assessment of zakk's post. Truthfully, between that,

me

doing the legwork on reading the vezo wagon since he only bothered to ask about it without analyzing it himself, Jazzmyn's thoughts on Kinetic, and the creeping notion that I'm underestimating him (he DID complain about that first thing, besides...), I'm quickly losing faith in that zakk Town read.
*I don't want to think about Plum tonight because I'm tired.
*Ranmaru replacing SleepyKrew and then immediately placing an L-1 vote is definitely standing out.
*Salamence is doing some hardcore active lurking. Or actual lurking. Whatever.

Potentially relevant to seagulls.

[Vi]

Catching up from 671.

LLD vs. Master Zik

(I wish I had read 673 earlier) - Having followed your example from when you caught Nacho out, let me try to word out what you're implying. You thought Master Zik was trying to demotivate SleepyKrew-Town further into the ground, and Zik's response was both a positive and negative - "I'm not trying to motivate him, but I'm motivating him to do better or get out".

I guess I can get that Town would be more willing to get replacements while scum would want to keep dead weight around (unless it's their scumpartner and they're daring enough to push that). However, I have concerns about where that read came from to start with and how that read only appeared in post 596 (when Plum and Salamence began pushing him), and how stoically he defended that read in 604 and 606 after basically admitting SKrew did the same thing as scum, and (most importantly for how I understand you're going about the game) how his 596 wasn't worded as a counter to the pushes against SKrew but rather telling SKrew to save himself.

Plum

- Y'know, I'll take that offer for a one-on-one conversation. You're the one with an awful schedule; you let me know when works for you or when you're online.

Ranmaru

- There are three questions I want answers to Really Soon Now. If you think the answers are obvious, I'd like to hear them anyway.
1) Why did you vote Plum?
2) Why did you vote Juls?
3) Why does it look in your second catchup post (790, not 791) you quit halfway through the thread?

I will answer your questions to me.
1) I'm trying to

work with people

. It wouldn't be sarcasm to say it's a novel concept in Mafia, so etc. There was a certain point right before when I asked RedCoyote to work together and lynch Plum when I realized "wait RedCoyote is Town", and I went from there. The actual conversation with him was a bit disappointing and had me a little on edge; I didn't want to vote Kinetic but went with it in the name of solidarity and besides, he needed the pressure. (That's also why I delayed answering "why's your vote on Kinetic" later.)
2) I have been told by a few people in the past that they think I'm trying to sell them something. I'm an analyst; I try to align stars the way I want them and get things done. Although, I suspect you're referring to something different. At some point during the game I decided that playing around wasn't going to work, and began putting :effort: into the game. Even as I type this I'm reading your catch-up and await you hitting that part of the game knowing fully well your entire PbPA-style wall is, if interpreted favorably, confbias at best. Like, I can tell you

want

to find everything I say scummy.

zakk

- I'm willing to say that Nacho's attempt to say that ABR was playing an obvious Town game was awkward and uninformative at best (about ABR at least), but I'm not sure that scum would go forward with a case that could backfire so badly if they didn't believe in it.

---

Nacho and Quaroath

- What are your reads on me?

[Vi]

That's a bit of a leading question, since it assumes that given Jazzmyn's play, that there must be a scum on there. But if we are going for most likely, Vezok or Quaroth, in no particular order. Their entrances were both subpar, and I'm pretty sure albert is town.

1. I voted plum because I wanted to show support for Plum, as I felt it was a good scum lynch. I didn't want interest to fade for Plum.

yeah
see
You literally put her at L-1. The Plum wagon already had plenty of support. If you read through the thread you should have known you were putting her at L-1, not least because Nacho did something similar and mentioned this issue shortly before you came in. But what puzzles me is that you put her at L-1 and then

did another readthrough

. If you were unsure enough of your reads to do another readthrough, why did you put the Day so close to ending?

2. I never voted Juls, I voted you. Where did you see me vote Juls?. Yet if I did, it would be because Juls voted RC and Plum without good reason at all. Her interaction with RC was non-accusatory, showing she had no place on the weak RC wagon. Also because of Jazz's catch on her, which I agree with.

the frick
reality warped

what I meant to say was along the lines of

Why are you putting stock in Juls not previously talking about RedCoyote and Vi being scum together when

Juls was on V/LA for two thirds of Day 1?

She left right after I switched my vote to Plum and got RedCoyote to follow, which is chronologically the first thing that could possibly get people to think RC/Vi (me calling him out one-on-one had not happened yet). The rest of your points look like playstyle - it's really obvious that Juls was trying to go heavy on votes and light on words in such a way that I don't think it's alignment-dependent.

3. I never quit halfway. My reads were mostly tempered from Day1, and there were some things I found concerns with on Day2. By Day2, there was nothing else sticking out to me that I felt a need to analyze. If there is, please point me to it and I'll expend even more energy to do so. I want to know why you think I'm simply trying to find scum in you instead of simply observing that of you from the very beginning.

For one, in your first pass, you didn't even find me more than null. You were actually trying to give me advice ("I would also like to remind Vi that she shouldn't just look at the people who voted Jazz, but those who also voiced their discontent with her through voice (Plum)."). Suddenly that changed in the second pass, to the point where you say you're suspicious of

literally every post you highlight except three

(197, 217, and 645; the second of which was a fluffpost). And what's really weird is you do exactly the opposite to Quaroath, quoting him and appending "goodposting" every single time he isn't sheeping me.

Separately, I'm also confused by your suggestion that I said "everyone is scummy" at any point, as I've always had a direction and pushed it. If you're wondering why I didn't have explicit Town reads stated in the post where I engaged RedCoyote - which isn't true anyway because I specifically defend Quaroath, basically write off vezo, and had already said Salamence was a bad direction to look - that's because A) it's page effing 5 and you yourself are saying "blah RVS" in your summary, and B) I didn't want to lead RedCoyote.

---

You should have been putting in effort from the very beginning, you shouldn't have started so late.

Please elaborate.

Cut by Plum: Yep, caught it before I posted it. The above quote looks like you're lecturing a Townie on how to play Mafia. First off, don't assume I don't know what I'm doing or that I have no idea how I look. I promise you I have that much awareness. Second, "whoops too bad you got scumread do better next time" is something you say to people

after

you know their alignment.

Saturday night is a bit late tbh. Would now work?

Vote: Ranmaru

(L-4)

[Vi]

I said I voted to show support, I wasn't saying I put you at L-1 to show support. Please don't misconstrue what I'm saying.

SleepyKrew showed his support of the vezokpiraka wagon in a similar way. (Oh wait, that's -this- slot, now isn't it?)

That was responding to her point of me not seeing her later posts that put in effort. So it's a retort to that. Here is the quote:

At some point during the game I decided that playing around wasn't going to work, and began putting :effort: into the game. Even as I type this I'm reading your catch-up and

await you hitting that part of the game

My point was, I already had what I needed to solidify my read on her from early game/day1. Yet, you can see in that quote, that I asked her to quote/link anything she'd like for me to look at to factor into my read.

So, interpreting this most favorably, you're agreeing with my third point that you intentionally took everything I posted to be scummy. Beyond that, it doesn't actually answer my accusation at all, that you know I'm Town and you want me to "help you get to that understanding yourself".

Also, I started playing seriously less than halfway through Day 1. I actually got suspected more for doing it; perhaps I made a mistake

I'll get to your post soon Vi, but I want to ask if you can comment on the Jazz v Juls while I do so?

I decline.

[Vi]

Vi - I've been out of the house 12 hours today, need to do food related stuff. Tomorrow during the day work? I actually think I'll be doing stuff from home so I'll squeeze it in.

Work, etc. :/
In that case, respond to LLD while you're here, rather than speaking to me.

This game is giving me more schisms than my fucking DID.

I understand that you can say whatever you want about yourself, but I'm kind of uncomfortable by this comparison.

[Vi]

I only had you as null, but also having a flip in mind, helped me with my reads. (Knowing Vezo and RC was town the second time around helped)

How does knowing a person I didn't help lynch and a person who had me as solidly Town were both Town help?

On you saying you had a town read on RC, I want to repeat that you didn't do anything to deconstruct his wagon, and I found that concerning. You prioritized talking to RC over defending him.

This is the second time, at least, that you have held me to task for not doing things you think I should have done.
Congratulations! I am not you and I do not think like you! Also, I'm directing the congratulations at myself!

I didn't intentionally take your posts as scummy. I had you as null, and upon having a more thorough read, my read developed from null to scum on you. You can say that I have a better grasp of the game with my second catch up, where as my first catch up was impartial, and rushed, which caused me to have the wrong reads. (Ie: Albert/Nacho, Master Zik)

1) Literally. Every. Post. But. Three. That is not "developing".
2)

How do you know they were the wrong reads?

[Vi]

2)

How do you know they were the wrong reads?

This is semantic garbage; disregard.

I still maintain that you saw the game state as of your replacement in and decided to fabricate a catchup that fit all of the reads currently being discussed.

[Vi]

I never made a case on Plum. That stuff after the vote was me trolling, like I've been doing for most of the game.

But Plum's posts really do look like they're coming from scum.

Jesus Fried Chicken how many people need eyeglasses or lobotomies to realize that the bolded is not in any way an absolution from responsibility from a wagon.

(It was, however, an intent to make the people already on the wagon uncomfortable with what looked like them sheeping me.)

[Vi]

On a somewhat different note - singersigner, why did you post that?

[Vi]

You claim

to have never really pushed the wagon in any serious way

or

make a case on it

The blue is correct; the red is not. I started a wagon and never made a case to back it up (the quotes I posted when I voted Plum were not intended to be a case).

Did you accomplish your goal of making people uncomfortable with "sheeping"? Did you think they were "sheeping"? Why haven't you commented on it yet/could you point me to where you did?

No, maybe, and no. Juls wordlessly voted Plum and vezokpiraka said he "liked the Plum wagon", which was strange because again, I never made a case on Plum. Juls then went V/LA and while considering my long post to RedCoyote decided that on balance vezokpiraka wasn't as scummy as I thought, so there was nothing left to say. Obviously RedCoyote was sheeping because that was what I asked him to do and I already decided to go with a Town read on him.

Rereading the links you posted, I do not have an issue worth taking up with the timing of your post and I'll withdraw that question.

---

1. You helped lynch Vezo, and knowing him flipping town gives me an inkling of your motivations. RC flipping town, removed a distraction, as I disagreed with most of his actions (Such as saying 'omg I missed vi' in his 282 wrt Vi vs Jass [268]). Finally, it helped because I had more information to narrow down who may be scum.

WRT vezokpiraka - I'm assuming you noticed this post. vezokpiraka was at L-2 and I jumped

off

the wagon, implicitly calling him Town ("LLD, I have to call you back") and then explicitly doing so. I do acknowledge that I later said I would at the very least not protest the wagon in response to his blind Vi rage raaaaawr.

W.R.T. RedCoyote, I think you missed the obvious point. The RedCoyote kill is more disadvantageous to me than anyone else, and given the massive target on my back there is little chance that I would have agreed to remove a player who was both defending me and gathering votes.

2. Then you should explain why you shouldn't do what I said, and state why you didn't.

"you should play like I think you should have played or UR SCUM"

3. Yes, there is developing. Whenever you have a null read, it must develop somehow.

As town, you have a null on everyone, because you have no idea who is town or scum.

Finally, upon doing the catch up again, I notice Juls call you out for your lack of posting early game, and that led me to ScumVi.

I am *this* close to laughing IRL at how you just said this while everyone accuses my long post with RedCoyote of being IIoA.

And... really?
A) You HAVE to put people into categories, and
B) Juls saying "whar is Vi " on

page 5

was what clicked you into "everything Vi does is scum"?

And--wait, this is the best part--

Feeling I may be wrong on Singer and LLD.

You're reconsidering your read on LLD? Wait, give me one guess. Is it because she's insisting that I'm Town?

This may not be common knowledge, but I know LLD IRL and I can state with absolute confidence that there is not a person on this site more qualified to read my vanilla game (as opposed to what I was doing for the first few pages) more than her.

[Vi]

And while that post was fun to make, there are a couple of things wrong here.

Unvote: Ranmaru

[Vi]

I'm back. Power outage etc.

---

LLD, I've unfortunately been considering this game all day. Care to chat?

[Vi]

Okay, the short version.

Eyes on the prize. It's not a matter of finding the people who suspect me/you/us and it's not a matter of finding the people who are, ah, not me/you/Nacho-tier. Right now, I think the polarization around me breaks in our favor. In other words, I won't be getting lynched Today because etc.

unless

the List of People Who Are Pretty Sure Vi Is Town targets the same person. So, we need to identify the scum.

The reason I unvoted Ranmaru is because as far as I can tell he genuinely believes what he's saying. It's remarkably consistent and patently oblivious in a way that I wouldn't expect from scum, least of all scum who gets called out as hard as I did. singersigner isn't particularly different here; she's getting biased by recent events but I actually didn't have a particular problem with her page 8 summary aside from her suspecting me (I've only skimmed the posts since this morning).

So, we need to find the actual scum. <part 2 to come>

[Vi]

In other words, I won't be getting lynched Today because etc.

unless

the List of People Who Are Pretty Sure Vi Is Town

does not

target the same person. So, we need to identify the scum.

negation is tech

[Vi]

If you don't agree with my reads, you can furnish your own. I've been wrong before. I'm concerned that time not spent focusing on Definite Scum is time that inertia carries a bad wagon through.

[Vi]

If you don't agree with my reads

on them

, you can furnish your own. I've been wrong before. I'm concerned that time not spent focusing on Definite Scum is time that inertia carries a bad wagon through.

previewing is also tech

[Vi]

So, first, let's put up a vote count, given UT's absence.

Votecount 2.Vi

Jazzmyn
Lady Lambdadelta
Master Zik
Nachomamma8 - 1 (zakk)
Plum - 2 (Quaroath, LLD)
Quaroath - 2 (Nacho, Plum)
Ranmaru - 1 (Salamence)
Salamence20
singersigner
Vi - 2 (Master Zik, Ranmaru)
zakk - 1 (Jazzmyn)

Not voting: Vi

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Deadline is (expired on 2015-07-23 17:00:00)

That's not really enlightening; we just needed a vote count.
Now, let's skip ahead to the final vote count of the Day, because that the rate things are going nothing will change in the near future.

SOMEONE WHO IS Vi: Zik, zakk, singersigner, Ranmaru, Salamence
SOMEONE WHO ISN'T Vi: Vi, LLD, Nacho, Plum, Jazzmyn, Quaroath

Too bad about the Hated thing, because if any of the people in the second list voted me it would basically be a scumclaim. And I'm looking

directly

at the hamster who has been riding my coattails all game as I say that.
Even so, that Vi wagon is so Townish it hurts to look at. Actually, that's a half-lie, it just hurts to look at.

Now. I don't think this game is necessarily that hard. There are people putting a

lot

of effort into this mislynch. Given etc. and etc. I don't actually think they're the scum on the wagon. The people I'm considerably more interested in are the ones who are sniping from the sidelines or otherwise letting the Town destroy itself. Specifically, Master Zik. I would lynch Zik before zakk and Salamence. The modkill business from Salamence's first posts is super-weird to claim as scum, and that's the primary reason I have pause on him (I think there may have been other things from early but I'd have to look back). (Clearly I need to post much less content when I troll; Salamence is basically getting a free pass! *cackle*)

I'm not willing to wait on Nacho and Quaroath to stop being lurksacks give their reads on me; if they lynch me you should lynch them and if they flip Town then rest assured I will let them know precisely what I think of them in the dead thread.

I do not think Zik/zakk/Salamence is the team because I'm willing to buy the hamster scumreads. I say this knowing fully well that I'm counting on Quaroath to not mysteriously flip his read on me at the eleventh hour. It would be in the hamster's best interest to not be pooie, join up, and start talking innocence while we lynch someone else Today.

So make my day and make me feel super-good about my RVS scumread.

Vote: Master Zik

(L-5)

[Vi]

singersigner, you're wrong. I'm very sorry, but unless you think me and LLD are scum together and doing an epic united front, we're mutually convinced the other is Town in a way that speaks to a lot of prior experience.

Ranmaru, you're wrong. Please choose new directions.

[Vi]

Ranmaru, if you don't mind, I'd like to throw you a bone.

I can understand you having a strong read on someone you know IRL, I get that. Yet when you don't even give me the time of day and then you talk to me after I bring out reasons after reasons and summary and case, it doesn't help me trust you any more than I do now. (Which is getting less and less)

1) Finding someone scummy because you don't like them personally is a fallacy. I think you're aware of this, but you still need to work around it.
2) Human interactions are two-way streets. There's likely a reason that LLD is shutting you down, and it's probably not "lulz". You can suggest that this is LLD going full Yankee trying to shout down inquiries into her defense of me or inquiries into how scummy I am, but there's also the possibility that she's genuinely upset. Whether either or neither of those is she would get so upset with you while defending me is a question you have to answer on your own, but it's likely related to the next point.
3) The people you can make the best case on are not necessarily the scum. Sometimes the VI is Town, no pun in--oh, who am I kidding, the pun was definitely intended. In this case, LLD is holding onto something that she believes is stronger than literally everything you could scoop up against me. Sometimes people are overconfident in their Town reads, but considering that LLD is basing it less on forum behavior and more on the kind of person she knows I am, it's really strong.

While I'm here, here's a bonus.
4) I do weird things. Sometimes I'm deadly serious and sometimes I'm playing to be goofy. If it matters, I can go back and explain what I was thinking at the time, but here, there's no point. No explanation will be satisfactory to you, so I see no need to offer any. It's the same result for you and it saves time for me. After all, my bet is that if you ever unvote me, it

won't

be because I've laid out a satisfactory response to your hundred accusations. So, my efforts are better spent going a different direction.

Does that make sense?

[Vi]

...Well, it was worth a shot.
I hope at some point you'll understand that the world doesn't end with you and your preconceived notions of how it should work, but it won't be in this game.
Until then, you're never going to reach the high tier of Town play.

LLD is telling you that your case, or at the very least the conclusion of your case, is wrong and that you should abandon the effort. That on its own is intended to help you in reading me; it's the conclusion of her own lines of thought about both me and your logic. It won't work, however, if you are so inflexible that you are unwilling to accept challenges to your worldview. This total lack of flexibility combined with dubious spots in your logic can be seen as excellent reasons to vote for you - it reads as scum trying to ram a case through.

I unvoted Plum because for the time being I'm willing to trust her.
Our interactions didn't end the way I would have preferred because I didn't get to talk to her, but that was probably the outcome I was going to end with.

I believe I've already elaborated on everything else you expressed concern with in my prior posts. Please read them again.
To be honest, if you don't understand after that, I don't think explaining it to you will help.

[Vi]

Telling me "Your reasons are bad!" does not convince me, without any discussion of my actual points, of which I painstakingly created, due to my confidence that you are scum.

Yeah, that's the problem. You have so much faith in your own preconceived notions that I'm just not going to be able to sway you.

On the flip side, the reason that me and LLD are Town-reading you has nothing to do with what you've said directly. Quite the opposite, the things you've said and done that have nothing to do with your long spoiler walls are enough to hang you. The L-1 vote on Plum as you walk in the door, with your feeble explanation that it's "so no one forgets", is easily interpretable as you trying to end the Day prematurely; your subsequent double readthrough (with heavily one-sided results that look suspiciously like what everyone else is saying) makes it look like your L-1 was a failed gambit. Your Juls read is based on "but Juls should have said something when she thought RC/Vi" and looks incredibly easy considering that Juls was essentially unable to post during and after the RC/Vi events. Your attempts to hold my actions to your own arbitrary standards of what you say Townies should do (with the benefit of hindsight, even!) are pure horseradish. Your patronizing "you should have been Townie earlier but you weren't so I'M SCUMREADING YOUUUUU" is another arbitrary standard that would be very easy for scum to push to maintain an otherwise untenable case on me. Add on SleepyKrew's hammer and other nothing and there's a more-than-sufficient case for lynching you. Yet we're not in favor of lynching you, even though we maintain that all of the things you've done above are blatantly, appallingly scummy. In fact, I'm more convinced you're Town now than I was when I unvoted you. If you cannot understand why I would push aside all those things I perceive as scumtells, or how I came to the conclusion that you're very likely to be Town to start with, then again - after four years on the site, you're not ready for prime time.

I decline to elaborate on Plum.

I don't have much to say about Salamence. His opening play "serious vote? yeah. random vote? not really" looked Townish, but it gets washed away with all the nothing and pushing on my Town reads that he's done since. He could go either way, which at this point in the game puts him fairly high on the lynch list.

I decline to fully elaborate on singersigner. I will repeat that Juls' opening post on Day 2 is more likely to come from Town.

[Vi]

There is no problem here. You are simply trying to discredit me while calling me town, instead of doing anything else. Really, talking about my skill (twice even) while we are still playing. For the record, I'm always for improving, but that's a discussion for post-game. Yet, I'm playing to the best of my ability with the knowledge I have currently.

I know you're doing your best. That's why I've stopped flaming you. I'm disappointed in your response, but I'll wait for postgame.

I can do things your way for the sake of going through the motions, but just this last time since the conversation is ultimately going nowhere and there are other people in this game who would appreciate not reading pages of us going back and forth with no resolution.

I certainly did want to jump on someone who had opportunistically jumped on the Jazzmyn(-Town) wagon since all of the people on the wagon had done so for some shade of bad reasons. The logic works like so.
*Jazzmyn is very likely to be Town.
*There is likely to be at least one person pushing it as a mislynch.
*Therefore, who is it? Let's vote them.
I accidentally jumped to the third question second, which was a mistake considering that if either of the first two points is not correct the third one doesn't follow.

Your <snip> of post 419 conveniently erases the part where I give my opinion on who the scum is, as well as my surprise about LLD having a different opinion from me. That's you being careless given your brown text addition.

The motivation "to lynch Town" is purely you trying to fit the worst possible interpretation of events to what happened, with the benefit of hindsight and blinders. The "well you should have considered Plum but you didn't so OBVSCUM" and "well you shouldn't have done this anyway" is purely your intensely biased opinion. Alas, sometimes people are wrong. I shall order you to be verbally crucified after you lynch me for your intensely scummy crime of wanting to lynch someone who's Town at some point during the game, even if you change your mind on it later.

---

For future reference, zakk's post 884 is what you should be looking for in a situation like this, given that it's lazy sniping on a prospective lynchee. Somewhat less important to point out, but I'm not trying to get you to shut up; I'm trying to get you to change direction.

[Vi]

WRT zakk - Counterpoint, zakk is basically set up to compromise onto me. Haring off onto you is more fascinating than relevant.

That said, one person at a time, etc. Besides, I'd hate to have to say "should have Zikked instead of zakked".

[Vi]

Vi:

I also have to say that I find Vi's dripping condescension to the new replacement players very off-putting. She did the same thing to me when I was relatively new and she was scum, and I am having a difficult time seeing her play in this game much different than her scum play then.

Regards,
Jazz

I'm actively trying not to be condescending. However, there are only so many ways one can go about saying "everything you're doing is wrong; please change".

With that said, I just looked at the game you're referring to and I didn't condescend to you at all there (because I spent most of the game calling you scum). In fact, on a skim I didn't do anything nearly as open and blatant as what I've been doing with Ranmaru.

[Vi]

Subject: Micro 59 - At one fell swoop (Game Over)

I don't get your play here, Vi. Not at all.

Sham Paragon, disgraced generation.

This game also saw a lot of shit talking to CES.

For context and defense of my reputation, CES had posted this previously in that game. He deserved everything I gave him.

Nacho and Plum already answered why continuing to push Ranmaru after deciding he was Town would have been a bad idea. Ranmaru's Burden of Proficiency argument against me is breathtaking (big moves, you say? like brashly trying to get all of the people I think are Town to bloc up on one person to brute-force change the direction of this game Day?)

And then there's Zik, cutting up words and posturing. In terms of substance rather than style, this is the only thing that isn't beneath comment.

Is Ranmaru not obvious town now? How can you possibly sell this as a post to "tell SKrew to save himself" when I clearly made a right decision?

It's a lot easier for scum to be right about who's Town

without

the benefit of hindsight.

[Vi]

I'm going to restate what I said earlier. This game shouldn't be that hard. The vast majority of the posts going on here are between people who are probably Town. The scum are the people who remain after removing the active players, and they're likely to want to maintain the status quo of Vi vs. arglebargle.

Again. {Zik, Quaroath, Salamence}. At least two out of these three are scum.

[Vi]

You're an easy target now?

[Vi]

You're an easy target now?

I'm not.

Glad you learned.

I'm talking about Quaroath and Salamence. Your read on me is apparently just OMGUS, so

I'm as reluctant to say "but the lurkers!" as anyone, but the vise has tightened the other way. The active players are either Town or probably Town. The lurkers remain. Oh, and you're still one of those lurkers despite your sudden flurry of activity, if that's what we can call your stream of posturing and slant. Perhaps you're an easy target after all.~

It's a lot easier for scum to be right about who's Town

without

the benefit of hindsight.

It's also a lot easier for town to be right about who's Town if one is good enough at Mafia.

I think I'm doing pretty well right now, yeah. I mean, it's not every game that I get to outclass a Master, even if that title is merely self-proclaimed.

I've been calling you probscum literally all game. I only labeled you probTown in that one post because I was going with LLD's potentially superior read. Once she explained how she got it and I looked into it I disagreed and disregarded. Regardless, I see no need to make a case.

[Vi]

Nothing of substance has changed. I'm bored and haven't yet realized that I have better things to do with my time so I'm trading insults with scum because I'll admit I enjoy it.

[Vi]

Soytenly.

vezokpiraka's reaction to my vote was surprise and an eye roll, as documented here. We have played before, as mentioned in here. My best guess for explaining his reaction is that vezokpiraka was the

original

wielder of Burden of Proficiency against me ("you voted me? but I'm Town! and you're the Professor Paragon, so you have to be scum in this game! DIE SCUM DIE AAAAAAAAAAAAH"), and I wouldn't have guessed that if the same kind of attack hadn't come up later in the thread. *cackle* After leaving for a year or so, people are pulling BoPs

more

often on me. I clearly did something wrong there.

With regard to what kind of game I'm having... Well, I came into this game with two goals outside winning (shock! shame!), and I think I've only half-succeeded at one of them. So, not as good as what I was hoping for. Beyond that, I wouldn't say that this game is

bad

. Right now, odds favor me getting lynched, but my ability to change that is substantially greater than zero, so it's not as bad as the last game I played. Whether it's "good" depends on whether I can flip this into a lynch onto a scumread AND they flip scum. Getting LLD and Nacho on my side is "good" on its own (and getting Town reads on both of them is honestly kind of shocking because usually by this time I would have flamed Nacho several times over [but he's a tree right now and that would be doubly rude] for doing nothing alignment-relevant and not working with me), but that on its own isn't enough to make for a "good" game; it just makes us all contenders for the Cassandra award.

I don't have a problem with singersigner's play. Just scrolling through your posts in isolation, it looks like you've been asking about and for her basically the entire time you've been here. Would it be correct to say that you have a scumread on Juls based on her vote bounces in the early game, and singersigner has posted (IYO) nothing of any note?

After looking at the game (almost seven years ago) where Jazzmyn was Town and I took her to near-endgame as lynchbait, I think there might be a notable difference in how she's using her impulsive rage in this game. Granted, I'm also playing much differently than I was seven years ago (I was much nicer back then but I also didn't know what I was doing) so I don't know how comparable the experiences are. Regardless, I want to consider the implications of that and how it balances against other factors in this thread - sometime else - but for the time being my chip remains on JazzTown.

[Vi]

This is going to sound bad, but I don't know which games would be "good" to read. I play however I feel like playing at any given time, and most people who read past games don't do well with finding comparable play and applying it well.

Aside from shocked, it's difficult for me to say much about Nacho. I'm not in any hurry to stop him from defending me and/or going in basically the same direction as me. On some principled level I want to be suspicious of him because of ABR, but I'm

de facto

not at the moment.

singersigner is, as far as I can tell, taking her time catching up while trying to keep kind of current with the thread (not easy when pages pop up overnight). Besides, she hasn't hit the part where you entered the thread yet, so a lack of a read on you would be premature. I don't have a problem assigning Town motivations to her actions.

The real concern, IMO, is the deadline. We have about four days to go, and Today is probably going to come down to that deadline. There needs to be a consolidation soon from the people who are still indecisive or absent or etc. so the wagoning process can proceed.

[Vi]

I am losing conviction in my reads.

I am also losing interest in this game. I need a flip or two to grease the wheels.

Also, who wants to play a speculation game?

The flip will come shortly. For now, we can distill the game state to two easy questions.
*Do you want to vote Master Zik?
*If not, which plausible lynchee would you support Today?

It depends on the type of speculation game. I'll leave the wisdom of it to you.
Of course, if it's the type of speculation that makes money, I might be in.

[Vi]

Jazzmyn was my strongest townread, so I'm feel the prejudice already. I'll take a look anyway in respect for you.

Oh, goodness. Ranmaru decides to vote someone other than Vi and suddenly he's prejudiced. Ron DeLite gets no respect.

---

I'm not sure I'll have enough time to fully consider things, so I'll go ahead and say what I was thinking earlier.

It's true that I expect Jazzmyn to be totally abrasive, chock-full o'

non sequiturs

, and basically insulting to anyone she doesn't like at the moment. However, looking at our past game where she was Town, she was actively combating her scum reads with quote stripes, proactively giving reads, and generally not

totally

responding to people with "but I think you're scum so this point is moronic". In addition, I agree that her performance during latter Day 2 has been sub-par and based on Zik-level snipes ("The Rule of So", really? Disappearing scum read on Juls? Responding to a deadline case with "lmao" rather than the usual "no ur wrong whars ur evidence"?).

I'm still considerably more convinced Master Zik is scum, though. If it makes you feel any better, Zik is totes against the Jazzwagon

[Vi]

Again. {Zik,

Quaroath, Salamence

}. At least two out of these three are scum.

Therefore, I do not think this may be the case anymore. I don't know what's up with singer/quaroth/sala at the moment but do not think those two fit there right now.

I'm pleased to know you thought that at one point.

On the contrary, though, I would be willing to go as far as to say that one of {Quaroath, Salamence} could be replaced by someone like Jazzmyn. Granted, that's equivalent to what I said earlier.

[Vi]

I'm personally a little miffed about the disengage on Vi, but I acknowledge that it is a fine course of action. Vi, if we're right that she's scum, is playing a formidable game.

also I skimmed over this before my prior post but hot

dang

is this the very image of "scumplaining".

[Vi]

You also happen to be a formidable potshotter, Mistress Vi.

I can take you up one notch.

I don't know how else to interpret "I'm upset about you unvoting my #1 top suspect I've sworn to kill at all costs, but I'm totally okay with it. I acknowledge that Vi is playing a game that doesn't look a lot like scum, but I swear to you that Vi is indeed scum."

[Vi]

So question to you. If Zik flips scum, who would you look into? Town?

I decline to answer this on policy. There's no point in speculating about what I would do in situations that have not happened and in at least one case

will

not happen.
However, my scum reads are independent of each other.

---

Why do you think we would trust you’d advocate a PL on yourself regardless of if you think it’s the best play? Under what circumstances would it be the best play?

Long story short, it depends on the wording in my Role PM and how the moderator answers questions. It doesn't apply here.
That's partly because I have reason to believe at least one player has inside information about my role.

---

Let's talk about scumplaining -- when your dearest lynchbait SleepyKrew transformed into the nigh unlynchable Ranmaru.

Doesn't that imply that I made any kind of effort to lynch SleepyKrew?

In short, yes. I loved the Rule Of So. This is why I play a game of Masters... Things to learn...

jesus god mary can we please lynch this
his play all Day has been indiscriminate mudslinging to maintain a Vi vote

ranmaru in particular how are you possibly seeing this slot as town

[Vi]

I decline to object to your case at this time.

[Vi]

Plum, that post is enough to sink you.

[Vi]

I don't think that's what Nacho intended you to do.

[Vi]

Plum is a fruit. She is not a panda.

She is, however, probably going to die before the end of Day 3, and I'm probably going to help.

[Vi]

Vi? Nacho? Ranmaru? Let's run someone fully up, and stop splitting our votes. Zik or Plum, which one?

Zik-scum essentially confirms Plum-scum. I'm not sure the reverse statement can be made.

(If she's faking content and not pushing anything and is scum, it would mean she's ok with the way the top wagons and lynches this day are headed, and thus my reads would need to go upside down.)

Are you sure?

People Jazzmyn has voted this game:

Vi (for "how dare you question me")
vezokpiraka (for deadline)
zakk (for being Kinetic)

[Vi]

Oh wait, I see what you're saying.

Well, she's in position to compromise onto me, fwiw.

[Vi]

Vi? Nacho? Ranmaru? Let's run someone fully up, and stop splitting our votes. Zik or Plum, which one?

Zik-scum essentially confirms Plum-scum. I'm not sure the reverse statement can be made.

I thought it was policy not to look at the line of Zik > ???. Anyway, how does Zik-scum confirm Plumscum? Also, if Zik is scum, it might link him to Kinetic.

Well I'm not going to do it in response to someone badgering me~

But, don't you think it's strange that Plum outright refused to vote Master Zik twice just now?
And, if you look at both of their posts in isolation, do you notice that they aren't interacting with each other in any meaningful way? In fact, unless I skimmed too quickly Zik's read on Plum inexplicably bounced from "unremarkable" to "scum" at some point without justification (and bounced back).

[Vi]

Wait, maybe it's Plum-scum that implies Zik-scum.

Whichever, it's open season and I'll be happier to see Zik go.

[Vi]

Plum has also requested replacement

Well that takes the game to new and awkward places.

LLD, do you still have a scum read on Plum (now Kagami)? On the one hand I don't actually know what a scum replace-out looks like, on the other hand I can pretty easily fit a Town narrative to the replacement anyway, plus if Plum actually did a replace-out right then as scum I'd lose a ton of respect for her.

Also don't think random suspicion on Jazz is good; the way she's approaching the game is still town.

I maintain that this is not the foregone conclusion you think it is. Consider that while she's launching mud everywhere at whoever remotely looks like an easy target with logic that looks like she's reading a very selective version of this thread, her reads are

remarkably

consistent where it counts. No matter how much she pisses LLD off, I'll put money on how she'll never mention her as a suspect until she gets a wagon, but my does she have plenty of "ammunition" to work with to justify it!

Plum or Vi, Sal maybe, singersigner maybe (because that could be quite information-rich, given Juls' parting post before singersigner replaced Juls). I would probably not object to Nacho either, but that is tied to my scum read on Vi.

I mean, look at these. zakk has just faded off the list (even though this is obviously a wish list if Juls and Salamence is on there) because ????. It's not like Jazzmyn has ever said anything positive about him. Similarly, you have to tell me where the Plum read came from, because the only time Jazzmyn ever spoke to Plum was on Day 1 when she made the mistake of trying to engage her. For someone who's asking for a case on Master Zik so much, it's reads a whole lot like she's stonewalling the Master Zik lynch while advocating basically any of the feasible counterwagons. Notice also that aside from the two non-Zik wagons, her two preferred lynches are people who aren't around - which echoes a conversation we've already had about her strongest reads being Kinetic and Juls earlier.

Who on my wagon is town? Obviously, it is Nachomamma8, yourself, and Ranmaru. My wagon is comprised of mostly town, and I'm put at L-2. That is terrible; we still have 3 scum alive and cackling at the town implosion.

It's the other way around, dahling. If you're Town and your wagon is full of Townies,

why haven't the other scum jumped on?

---

For the record, this post is rather heavily revised. The last three pages left me physically shaking over how upset I was getting, and I lost my composure entirely. I think that's a new experience for me.

The short version of it is that if either Jazzmyn or Zik are Town, I will make sure that they are aware of my displeasure toward them as soon as it's confirmed. Until then, I'm going to assume that what they're doing is intended to be taken within the context of the game (i.e. that they're using

manipulation

as

scum

,

gasp

).

In the meantime, I would deeply appreciate it if Zik's blatant condescension and manipulation in his attempts to discredit LLD's vote are noted, and if anyone hasn't noted how arguing with Jazzmyn doesn't work by now they should do so, and then also notice the incongruous nature of her reads that she has posted willingly so that you don't have to ask her about them yourself. zakk, I will take your suggestion of a Jazzmyn vote into consideration; until then, I would appreciate it if you didn't take the free shots.

---

...

TWITCH.

TWITCH TWITCH TWITCH TWITCH.

Welcome to the Painful Games Done Slowly block; it runs in the middle of the night so weirdos have a reason to stick around for the slow period.

[Vi]

Hey there Vi. I don't remember Zakk giving a suggestion for a Jazz vote.

Oh, Kagami. I've already asked someone who knows more about replacing out as scum what she thinks about that, answer pending.

That was a town-tell. I'm disengaging for now.

Curses!

Fuck you.

Vi had earlier put Jazzmyn in her town-reads. This is not a manner in which someone is supposed to treat a townread.

and fuck you

This is a particularly great paragraph of wisdom that I will certainly learn from and adapt into my games. I don't understand how you can possibly scumread Jazzmyn after this.

and fuck you

I particularly dislike the fact that she tried to weasel a scum motivation out of that translation. Instead of the word "complaining", she calls it "scumplaining" ... why? Through this word, she tried to elicit a negative connotation which suggests a slant that the action comes from "scum" or is "scum-motivated" -- even when the evidence presented does not lead to the conclusion. When questioned further: "Can you explain how the above is "scumplaining"? What is your thought process? There is a logic gap.", and she fails to answer. Simply, her premises are false, leading to a slimey conclusion that she hopes you folks would buy.

I like the part where Vi was flustered and expressed signs of unease when I brought up that SleepyKrew should be replaced.

Knowing that retired SleepyKrew had a tendency to doze off at inopportune timings, and a younger and fresher Master would bring vigor into the town and revive the slot, would always be a situation that scum would object to.

and fuck you SPOILER ALERT, ASSHOLE - I'M NOT RESPONDING TO SCUM OR PEOPLE I CAN'T CONVINCE, SOURCE: A WHOLE BUNCH OF MY POSTS WITH RANMARU

It's also a lot easier for town to be right about who's Town if one is good enough at Mafia.

and fuck you

Vi, if we're right that she's scum, is playing a formidable game.

and fuck you

It's your lucky day, Master: I'm going through your recent posts now!
I'd be interested in seeing what's "terribly wrong" on my end.

This is really simple.

I received a role PM that states that I'm Town.

Your read on me is bullshit. Which, considering the amount of thought you put into it, isn't very surprising.

and fuck you

Now everybody has noted it, I'd like to bring everybody's attention to Vi's hypocrisy when she talks about "blatant condescension and maniuplation"

and fuck you

Vi's tone and intent is to demotivate, discredit, and to attack.

I'm merely just stating neutral facts.

and fuck you

I'm glad we could have this conversation. I'm going out for a moment, and I might continue.

[Vi]

Who isn't an easy target currently? Ranmaru?

I think the game is currently at a point where there are a lot of possible lynches if scum through their weight enough and town shit the bed enough. I don't think Jazzmyn's focus has been on easy lynches.

No kidding, anyone can get lynched if they decide to suck in the 11th hour and scum gets their act together. Jazzmyn's preferred lynches are all on people who either cannot answer for themselves, are conspicuously leading the wagon pack, or are Salamence. Did you even see that Plum read?

More importantly, what's your read on Zik given zakk's Town-case on him? I'm not particularly appreciative on your neutral posts today.

You're struggling to come up with reasons. Look at that post yourself. Tell me that you're convinced that I'm scum.

god

damn

is this not the most punchable person I've met in years

If you're town, Vi's reads are wrong to a profound extent.

NO FUCKING SHIT
LLD, are you

sure

this is your favorite player?

1. Zik looks like town here because he's active and fighting his lynch and making good points, and he was only widely suggested/pushed after he became more active, which to me says town because as scum he'd be more likely to test the waters and see if he can mesh with and work with public opinion before he moves from being a "making posts but not hugely active" player, to being a main active player in the game, or in people's crosshairs. The reason everybody is hopping all over his back is because he's active and rubbing other active people the wrong way. Is this smart town play? probably not. Is this smart scum play? Definitely not. My big money is that as scum Zik would have just coasted a bit more / a lot more, and taken pot shots at easier targets, instead of running around slapping everyone on the back of the head. He's still my top town read and the back and forth recently has actually convinced me MORE that he's town.

I'm not completely against what you're saying here. I think you're giving him way too much credit, because if memory serves he only began posting (and doubling down on me with the sorts of posts that make me want to throw something/up) in a way that's beyond credible, but etc.

3. I find it very hard to believe that VI has never seen scum replace out of a game.

Under that kind of timing, you dimwit. The last person I recall doing that sort of thing was Katsuki (as Town).

I hope Plum isn't Katsuki either.

Actually, come to think of it I only remember Townies replacing out under pressure when they're about to get lynched when I was scum pushing them. That's probably because I can feel the full impact of it then.

2. VI is p. bad either way. As either scum or town VI is sucking big time imo.

and fuck you

Vote: Vi

I don't even care if you're scum, you're gone. That was unacceptable.

And you're scum.

Oh

be honest

, you're pushing policy. There's precisely zero chance I would make the posts I have today as scum. In the meantime, you can go reflect on your seagulling comment.

[Vi]

Vote: Vi

I don't even care if you're scum, you're gone. That was unacceptable.

And you're scum.

Also, inb4 Jazzmyn votes me with a post that says basically this, adding to her string of really easy votes. This is the Monado's power; I'm

really feeling it

.

And as a friendly reminder! While I'm crossing all kinds of red lines for my demeanor right now, this is much closer to my Town meta than my scum meta! THE MORE YOU KNOW☆

[Vi]

You are classless.

I'm not a dimwit, and I sure as heck don't deserve a helping of your vitriol. If you're town, grow up.

Then let me say this bluntly, okay?

First, you sure as hell

do

deserve a helping of my vitriol. You know when that's going to stop? When you don't give me reason to give it to you. Look at these nice reasonable responses I have to things that aren't blatantly antagonistic.

Second, there is no reason for you to say "if you're Town, ___; if you're scum, ____" in posts before and after you say "you are scum" as you vote me. That "you are scum" line is an obvious lie, and in this case I think it's a lie you're telling

yourself

more than anything. Get your vote off me, work with me for a change, and we can move forward.

---

This is certainly embarrassing. As long as I'm telling it like it is, though,

I don't care so much.

[Vi]

Holy hell, it's like I'm not using my rage to tunnel on someone.
I might actually be a polite, reserved, colorful person who's been staying fairly stoic while some massive d-bags have been punching me for 40 pages straight and doing their very best not to point out their d-baggery in the way it deserves. That was actually one of my goals for this game, which I suppose I have to downgrade to a failure now.

---

I won't vote Zik
I won't vote Jazz
I won't vote Lambda
I won't vote Ranmaru

Give me what you've got

That's tough to read.

The very first thing that comes to mind is Cabd. I freely admit that this is prejudice; I've seen Cabd single-handedly win games as Town and scum through manipulation and I don't actually want to see him live long enough to breathe in Quaroath's slot. Prejudice in itself isn't enough to warrant a particularly solid vote, and I feel bad about voting a slot that can't defend itself, but simple wagon analysis makes Quaroath/Cabd a good pick - him-scum makes a lot of the wagons make more sense.

After that, I'm not going onto singersigner without something compelling, I can be persuaded onto Salamence if it comes down to it, and Kagami has done nothing for me (the "axes" discussion in particular looks like scum explanations) but Plum's replacement is still something I'm going to sit on.

I'm not going to vote Kagami, now, because I want to look over Kagami's posts that concerned me and

even if it makes me look bad

(because I know that's what you're after) I'm going to ask a second opinion on Plum's replacement because from what I know of Plum she's not very likely to do that sort of thing as scum.

[Vi]

Yeah, screw it. The second read didn't do much for me either.

Vote: Kagami

(L-3)

[Vi]

More importantly, what's your read on Zik given zakk's Town-case on him? I'm not particularly appreciative on your neutral posts today.

Scum?
Did you think that was a town case worth commenting on?

I commented on it, ergo it was worth commenting on. Do I need to get a Rocket Raccoon avatar just for you.

Please stop voting

[Kagami]

, Vi.

Why.

[Vi]

The meltdown is literally the only reason I think you could be town.

Thanks. I'll be sure to throw a wild fit every time I'm Town so that I don't have to go through the effort of scumhunting or helping establish and synergize with Town reads, since some slow kids in the audience don't seem to grasp that that's a hell of a lot more likely to come from Town, nor that the sworn word of the person who I've said several times can read me better than anyone else (and has certainly not objected to as much) -might- mean something.

VI you've seen Cabd single handedly win games AS TOWN as well as scum, but you want him dead based solely on the fact that it's possible he's scum?

And you're mad that I said you're sucking big time? ....

.................

Cabd is legitimately amazing at manipulation. I have no doubt that, if given the opportunity, he can talk his way into turning his slot around

regardless of his alignment

. Why do you think Nacho's only giving him one post to present himself?

See also Quaroath.

[Vi]

Kagami has done nothing for me (the "axes" discussion in particular looks like scum explanations) but Plum's replacement is still something I'm going to sit on.

Let's start here.

Thanks, Nacho, it's like I have no idea what I posted. YOU tell me something for a change.

And additionally, what in Zik's recent posts are you reading as town or townish?

I'll quote what zakk said.

1. Zik looks like town here because he's active and fighting his lynch and making good points, and he was only widely suggested/pushed after he became more active, which to me says town because as scum he'd be more likely to test the waters and see if he can mesh with and work with public opinion before he moves from being a "making posts but not hugely active" player, to being a main active player in the game, or in people's crosshairs. The reason everybody is hopping all over his back is because he's active and rubbing other active people the wrong way. Is this smart town play? probably not. Is this smart scum play? Definitely not. My big money is that as scum Zik would have just coasted a bit more / a lot more, and taken pot shots at easier targets, instead of running around slapping everyone on the back of the head. He's still my top town read and the back and forth recently has actually convinced me MORE that he's town.

You know what, a bunch of this isn't actually true. The votes on Master Zik started coming in before he did more than just snipe the Vi wagon. "Making good points" is obvious bullshit that apparently isn't all that obvious, and it's not like by "slapping everyone on the back of the head" he's actually tried voting someone other than Vi (except, wait for it, the person who isn't around, Salamence). The pony show away from me and back could be Townish in some universe, but I won't flip a read over it.

You know what, screw it. I don't know what I saw earlier.

Hey Zik. Let me change my tune slightly to suit your most recent post. Fuck off.

[Vi]

Oh hey. Salamence is lurking. Isn't that special.

[Vi]

@mod: Please prod Salamence20

that awkward moment when two people who have replaced out were more recently active

[Vi]

Aren't you supposed to be talking to me about Kagami?

[Vi]

@mod: Please prod Salamence20

that awkward moment when two people who have replaced out were more recently active

We could always just lynch him.

Don't you have catching up to do?

Nacho said words. I'm too exhausted to care at the moment. Things were said.

---

Last attempt to go someplace for the night.

There are 11 players alive.
I'm one. That makes 10.
LLD, Ranmaru, and zakk-once-Kinetic are off the table. zakk is the current Town Read I'll Never Ever Give Up, following in the footsteps of other Town Reads I'll Never Ever Give Up that have since become dubious, but I'll buy that response to what happened today. That makes seven. With three scum, we're pretty close to 50/50, right?
Who's left - Kagami-once-Plum, Nacho-once-ABR, Zik, Salamence, Cabd-once-Quaroath, Jazzmyn, and singersigner-once-Juls.

Wagons... eh, I went to the effort of dredging them up but the ones from Today aren't very interesting because the Town has been holding block parties, plus two people have been conspicuously absent all Day.

Plum - 4 (

[Vi], zakk,

Quaroath,

LLD, Ranmaru

)

Master Zik - 4 (

Vi,

Nachomamma,

LLD, Ranmaru

)

and again

vezokpiraka

- 7 (

LLD,

Quaroath,

RedCoyote,

Plum, Salamence20, Jazzmyn,

SleepyKrew

)

Unless you mean to tell me that there are two scum in {Zik, Nacho, singersigner} and/or that there is at least one scum in {Vi, Ranmaru, zakk, LLD}, we're pushing 50/50 lynching on the vezokpiraka wagon. From there it's all personal preference.

I kind of just want to stick a fork in the hamster and call it good. I mean, my lesser Town reads are Nacho and Juls, and he just ~happened~ to be on a bunch of suspicious wagons.

This game -shouldn't- be as hard as we're making it. I think.

I'll do something with these thoughts sometime. Someone help them along with votes or something better than NO U.

---

Okay so empire is here on short notice I will post things tomorrow getting empire a job is ASAP

Sorry about your Role PM (probably). Most sincere thanks for looking out for Empire.

[Vi]

Sorry, UT. I have one final red line to cross.

Please replace me.

This game is not worth playing.
These hours are not worth spending.
These people are not worth associating with.
There are so many better things I could be doing with my life, and I don't want to wait two months to do them.

[Vi]

...

You're both wrong. This game sucks whether I'm in it or not. The game, Mafia, is inherently toxic; this particular game is so much so that whether I win or lose the game, I lose. The primary reason you may think otherwise is because we're all here, we all know each other, and you believe or earnestly want me to believe we're on the same team. If any one of those were not the case, you'd feel differently.

With that said, most people would be elated for people to beg them to stay in the game. Plum and Juls didn't get that, and they're both people as good or better than me. No comment on ABR. Nobody was sorry to see Kinetic or Quaroath go. SleepyKrew, the cult hit of the site, vanished with nary a frown. I won't take that lightly.

UT, please rescind my replacement request.

However. This game has absorbed virtually all of my free time for the past two weeks. It bleeds into my work life where I'm bitter and angry and frustrated and I have no satisfactory way to explain it when my manager pulls me aside. Do you get it? This is a bad decision

for me

. To reconcile that, I'm not going to put any more of my life into this than necessary.

Let's get this over with.
Both of you remain on Master Zik. LLD, Nacho, is that your final answer?

[Vi]

And. For the record.
I'm entirely fine with saying LLD is Town. I'm trusting LLD to smooth over any misgivings I have about Nacho, i.e. at least he's fooling both of us. I acknowledge the risk that I'm being kept in the game by scum for, I don't know, not having to go find someone else for schadenfreude.

[Vi]

That being said

To reconcile that, I'm not going to put any more of my life into this than necessary.

Will this prevent you from commenting on the latest concerns I brought up in regards to you?

Do you think I'm scum?

If no, there's no point in commenting.
If so, there's no point in commenting.
If you're not sure, then good luck deducing my alignment with the massive hints I've been dropping for the last two dozen pages.

Like, that's really flippant but saying something I did is scummy at this point is futile.

Vi, I am hoping you are not one who would not pull this when scum. If you are, it's not me that is going to come for your head -- it's your friends.

If you flip scum, I would like to warn you that your friends are probably not going to townread you ever again.

Have I told you to fuck off recently? That's how I want to respond to this but I'm concerned that my uncharacteristic vulgarity is becoming predictable, even passé.

---

You know what would be really cool? My top Town reads (minus Ranmaru; thank you for your input) answering point-blank questions about their votes. Yeah. That would be really cool. I don't think LLD was trying hard to be particularly elusive earlier, so don't start now. Ditto Nacho. Jazzmyn's recent behavior makes her quite a bit more likely to be scum, and at the same time I wouldn't mind the experience of placing Master Zik at L-1 if you're that confident in him (me personally, I'm conflicted but not enough to protest the wagon). Emotion is fine and all but hurry the eff up with being

useful

. That's how Town blocs become

awesome

instead of

impotent

.

I'll discuss the well-wishes postgame.

[Vi]

Zik is basically my top town read

How is he even scummy at all, VI?

I did read your Town case on him, but it's either factually inaccurate or does not fit the evidence I have. On the other hand, speaking as someone on the receiving end of his tunneling, his attacks are mostly trash and posturing and have been for a long time.

@Vi...you can't fear monger me into ignoring the fact that your wagon analysis was bullshit. My request for you to comment on your thought process behind it was in order to better determine your alignment. I'd like you to answer for it.

Are you seriously suggesting that my alignment is in question? (and how was that "fearmongering"?)

Nonetheless, I'll indulge you. Your complaint is that wagon analysis without flips is no good. I don't think that's strictly true. For one, I stated all of the assumptions that I made about who had NOT flipped up front ("unless you think there is more than one scum in {Master Zik, Juls/singersigner, Nachomamma8/ABR}", etc.). For two, I kept the assumed-Town reads to a minimum to safeguard against the analysis being subject to confirmation bias. Third, I was kind enough to point out the weaknesses of the Day 2 wagons (which don't really seem useful tbqh). Fourth, the wagon analysis was not particularly the point of what I was saying, so much as a general process of elimination. I respect your reference to Signs and Void (which I haven't read) but I've actually been neglecting to consider the wagons all Day and certainly haven't been pushing "omg we MUST lynch from the vezo wagon" as would seem appropriate from your description.

Does that answer your questions?

[Vi]

I make trash arguments against lots of people in order to judge their reactions though

Skipping the easy jab response, I'm pretty sure Zik wasn't aiming for reactions, so much as a rise out of me.

[Vi]

LLD.

Both of you remain on Master Zik. LLD, Nacho, is that your final answer?

---

That's not really valid

You're in the "The Rule of So" camp; I don't endorse you as an arbiter of validity.

And he's backed off you now that he thinks you're town, how does that factor in?

That's quite a half-hearted endorsement and a half-baked backing in an offward direction. It looks like he's doing it because he has no Town-acceptable choice.

Do you honestly think he is not town? Or is this a "VI got upset, VI wants Zik gone bc ~reasons~ okay??" thing?

If I hadn't been calling Zik out in my top three scumreads for basically the entire game this would be a rather serious consideration.

There is one open question of interest about the Zik slot and it requires an answer from Zik himself.

[Vi]

I won't criticize that post. I will once again ask the people who are supposed to be the Town leaders to hurry up and be Town and lead with thoughts such as these in mind.

[Vi]

@zakk: I'm asking Nacho and LLD. There is a reason I'm asking their assistance. Jazz-Town is a questionable decision.

I'm a little offended you think your alignment is obvious seeing as I've never played with you before and it's clear I'm not the only one who takes issue with your play. If you think it should be obvious, maybe you could direct me to why?

What kind of person do you think I am?
(And, why is it that people deny it so vehemently when I say that Mafia is a game where one has to make deeply personal judgments about others?)

(also, I think you replaced into a game I was in at some point or other but that's not really important)

[Vi]

Tier "I'm more likely to eat a dick while falling off the Empire State Building while singing "Singing in the Rain" than these things have the probability to be scum"

This is gonna get my vote; I don't think this is unlikely at all

---

Hey

BBMolla

, really quick. Should I be interested in you?

---

singersigner.

If all you're reading from my posts is "wah AtE and ego and anger", I don't think I can answer you in a satisfactory manner. I don't mean to come across as condescending as I say this, but etc.

---

Master Zik.

I would like five uninterrupted minutes of your time.

[Vi]

Vi, acknowledged. Hit me.

That's a very good way of phrasing that.

Why are you playing this game under an alt?

[Vi]

Vi, acknowledged. Hit me.

That's a very good way of phrasing that.

Why are you playing this game under an alt?

I want to experiment with a different play style and test how my pure power fares in controlled games. There is a little bit of meta cheating involved, though, in the fact that I have meta information on players but they are unable to do the same to me. The caveat is that I am unable to use metadefense, but since when was self-meta regarded as a valid defense anyway?

That's very strange, because you actually have used meta to defend yourself. About half the game knows who you are, either because they picked it up on their own or

you told them

.

That leads to the question of why Kagami and Nacho have such differing reads on you. Kagami seems to

only

be Town-reading you because you told them who you are, and (if I'm reading a vague Nacho post correctly) your identity cemented his will for this wagon. Would you disagree with this assessment, and would you care to explain?

Quickly skimming your two other games, I will grant you are a more-than-competent scum player. It's a genuine compliment, bravo. Time for you to self-meta yourself. Aside from how your posts have 130% more suck in this game than GIF's, why should I believe this is your Town game?

---

I spent years in the aviation industry, btw.

I'm there now. We should talk or something at a time when I don't need to bother with wanting to lynch you.

---

Vi, we need to talk.

Maybe tonight, honey. I'm warning you now, I'm keeping the kids.

---

Hey BBMolla, really quick. Should I be interested in you?

ya my role is fucking cool but I don't know the flavor so I'm not 100% sure if it's useful

Be more specific.

---

Unvote: Kagami
Vote: Master Zik

(L-2)

Partly because I don't buy his response to me being so obviously Town even he can't deny it, partly because he's not buying LLD doing the same.

I'm holding out hope for a Jazzwagon. That was a really impressive flop to familiar reads.

At this point I think the scum are competent, or at least adaptable. I'm going to need to raise my threshold on acceptable Town tells.

[Vi]

That's very strange, because you actually have used meta to defend yourself. About half the game knows who you are, either because they picked it up on their own or you told them.

That leads to the question of why Kagami and Nacho have such differing reads on you. Kagami seems to only be Town-reading you because you told them who you are, and (if I'm reading a vague Nacho post correctly) your identity cemented his will for this wagon. Would you disagree with this assessment, and would you care to explain?

Quickly skimming your two other games, I will grant you are a more-than-competent scum player. It's a genuine compliment, bravo. Time for you to self-meta yourself. Aside from how your posts have 130% more suck in this game than GIF's, why should I believe this is your Town game?

That's not true. So far, I have only directly revealed my identity to Kagami, whom I trust. I trust her skills, and I believed that she was town.

Why would you reveal your identity to Kagami?

The rest of the game should not know my identity (otherwise, shit, that's trouble).

You're so

cute

when you're vulnerable~

After thinking about things a bit more, yeah, this is where I want to be.

[Vi]

@vi: no

no u

That's the answer I needed.

[Vi]

There's a TV dinner in the freezer and Easy Mac in the cabinet.

[Vi]

I haven't really had a lot of time to read through things over the course of the morning, so a lot of what happened in the last few pages was :words: and I skimmed it quickly.

One thing you said that sticks out to me is that the scum are intentionally baiting . After skimming Zik's posts in his scum games, I'm inclined to buy that possibility. I'm not being at all sarcastic when complimenting Zik's performance in GIF's game--
*he was able to do something really scummy (a fake "oops"hammer) and talk his way out of it,
*his posting was purposeful and pulled no punches on :effort: , and
*perhaps most impressively, he was able to work as a team with his partners.

So, my question then becomes - if he is indeed as competent as his previous games have suggested, why do his points against me blatantly suck and why is he openly antagonizing me? It's not like his deliberate skill should change with his alignment. Like, every now and again he came up with something halfway decent to hammer on but a lot of it was basically there to fluster me with how bad it was. I don't think I've ever played with Master Zik's main and the only information I had on him was that someone I knew had him on their blacklist (which usually happened for either being a moron or being a jerk), so I originally assumed he was a n00b, but I've been pleasantly mistaken. From the perspective of a competent player, his attacks on me take on an entirely new meaning.

I'd also like to reiterate that he was able to work well with a (competent) team. In the event that Master Zik flips scum, he's probably working in concert with his partners - I would go after zakk immediately, someone else I've probably shortchanged in my estimation.

Besides, it's said that in LyLo, if you're not sure who to vote, vote for the person you'd be more upset to lose to. I'm applying that logic a few days early. ^___________^
Master Zik, as a Master, should know that pissing Townies off is a losing play regardless of alignment.

---

I'm not sure what singersigner is doing (I don't remember). What are you seeing these days?

Jazzmyn seems to have had her train of thought derailed rather thoroughly by how I became essentially unlynchable, and has gone conciliatory and near-silent. I'm having a lot of trouble buying her about-face.

[Vi]

Vi, read Singer's posts.

reading posts is so 2011

It's really up to whether one believes she's genuinely incapable of understanding what out-of-game frustration looks like. Assuming the worst of her somewhat recent posts, I still want to lean slightly Town.

[Vi]

It seems like we're on the same page. Is there anything else on your mind?

[Vi]

My posts have 130% more suck because I'm town. That's just the way it is. Considering that you guys have a penchant for lynching town, I think that they're still not that bad.

It's not directly causal, but it shows that certain players enjoy lynching town, and that is the most anti-town action that one can ever fathom.

mmhmm
yes, we are all playing against our Win Conditions in the name of :fun:

[Vi]

Which is another reason I still suspect VI because it seems VI is a master manipulator and uses social situations to exploit character flaws and gain trust or sow distrust

are you actually a benmage alt

Vi do you actually think Zik is scum or are you just lynching him because he annoys you?

Cause I don't think he's scum.

I don't have a problem with Zik-scum. I do have a problem with how there is no power role in this game that literally slaps the Zik out of him IRL, like fist-coming-through-monitor style.

Depends on their reasons, Vi just seems to think you're going to lynch them in LYLO and doesn't want to deal with you.

what the actual hell is this

peeps

operating under the assumption that you are Town

STOP SAYING BLATANT, SELF-EVIDENT BULLSHIT

otherwise do continue

this message is brought to you by: someone who is definitely Townie
this message is for: Zik and people who replaced bad slots that haven't particularly redeemed them

[Vi]

I'm leaning towards kicking Nachomamma8 and Lady Lambdadelta off my town list. Jazzmyn's strong case against Nachomamma8's false meta holds, as well as his stubborness to vote me for unknown reasons. Lady Lambdadelta I know is a fantastic scum player and currently ranks the top in this game for voting Town with intent to lynch.

Cabd -> LLD -> Nacho, for now.

also may I mention this attempt to break up the Town bloc

like

this has scum social engineering written all over it

[Vi]

?

Vi do you think he's scum or just bad?

He's either scum playing a good game or a Town player who is fanatically devoted to being decisively anti-Town. After seeing Zik's scum play I'm not going to assume he's a moron. The (Mafia-aligned) scum hypothesis makes the most sense.

In that way, my vote is a compliment.

[Vi]

@mod: Please replace Master Zik with Metal Sonic

I verify that this is Master Zik's main, as I was the person who activated the account.

[Vi]

she forgot it was kind enough

I think we're beyond that now ^__________^

[Vi]

she forgot it was kind enough

I think we're beyond that now ^__________^

So did you remember 5 minutes ago or did you know the whole time??

The whole time. I still have the chat window up. You should pick who you piss off more carefully.

[Vi]

I don't think I've ever played with Master Zik's main and the only information I had on him was that someone I knew had him on their blacklist (which usually happened for either being a moron or being a jerk), so I originally assumed he was a n00b, but I've been pleasantly mistaken.

Not five minutes ago.

I can dryly vouch that you are now using appeals to emotion in earnest. Bye now.

[Vi]

@mod: Please replace Master Zik with Metal Sonic

I verify that this is Master Zik's main, as I was the person who activated the account.

Why would you think that this is

a. remotely an acceptable thing to do

If you need to ask this question, you haven't been paying attention.

[Vi]

Actually on consideration, we gain nothing by me being pigheaded

I've made my Plum suspicion more than clear. If I die you guys know who to lynch

Now let's look at other targets

Zik/Lambda/VI/Ranmaru
Lead on. Talk to me

A few of you suspect Cabd a few of you suspect Jazzmyn and a few of you suspect singer

Who is the best to lynch and why
Let's look at all sides of this thing

Who gives us the most info with a flip?

I didn't understand what you were referring to in your earlier post, so I apologize for not answering this sooner.

Look, if you're going to say I'm a master manipulator abusing the replace-out system and even

outing alts

to gain an ingame advantage instead of, say, doing my very best to ruin Metal Sonic's day because I think he's an awful person, then I'm honestly kind of disappointed. I'm not going to say those people don't exist, but it's a dark day when I'm lumped in the same category as Adel.

(Well, to be honest outing the alt does give an ingame advantage, but that wasn't what I had in mind at the time.)

With a warning that I'm not thinking very hard about this game right now, between Cabd, Jazzmyn, and singersigner I would pick Jazzmyn. Add Kagami to the options and to be honest I'm not going to bother with arguing against that right now.

I don't care about information; I care about lynching scum.

For the time being I'm going to wait until interesting people post before doing anything. In the meantime, SGDQ is on.

[Vi]

That's understandable. You've seen me, LLD, Nacho, and even Jazzmyn say similar things.

BUT. In my opinion, at this point we may as well play to win just so that all of this means anything. My behavior in this game isn't anything like how I -want- to be, and I have no intention of playing this toxic game again at any point in the future, but if I'm going to become a dirt-tier human being I'm at least going to get something out of it.

---

Kagami's 1896 basically mirrors the conclusion I drew from researching Master Zik. That said, the important part of that post is that Kagami is saying Zik is Town.

[Vi]

Kagami's 1896 basically mirrors the conclusion I drew from researching Master Zik. That said, the important part of that post is that Kagami is saying Zik is Town.

Why, what about it?

"Master Zik's scum game is formidable; he's fluid and unpredictable. A Master Zik scum flip would end the game. I think Master Zik is Town."

I don't have a conclusion; it was something that stuck out to me.

Let's lynch LLD, guys. Even if my pointing out where she's obviously scum doesn't convince you, shouldn't PoE?

I don't foresee that happening, partly because I'm not going to help. Who's your next target?

[Vi]

Let's lynch LLD, guys. Even if my pointing out where she's obviously scum doesn't convince you, shouldn't PoE?

I don't foresee that happening, partly because I'm not going to help. Who's your next target?

[Vi]

Let's lynch LLD, guys. Even if my pointing out where she's obviously scum doesn't convince you, shouldn't PoE?

I don't foresee that happening, partly because I'm not going to help. Who's your next target?

Never mind. Tech is reading. Rephrasing the question--in the interest of pushing a wagon that people are likely to join, would you mind voting for someone other than LLD?

[Vi]

I want to see the rest of Cabd's reads/explanations before making a decision.

[Vi]

The post is reported and will be dealt with the mod team accordingly. Unless this affects your ability to play the game with Vi, you should prepare for the game moving on as per usual and any sanctions (or lack thereof) will be delivered when necessary, whether that be as soon as a decision is made, or post game.

Full disclosure: this is not an official listmod communication. This is strictly my pseudo "listmod" opinion on the matter and I will ignore anything else of this matter as a player playing the game. If this is unsatisfactory to you, take it to PMs/deal with it privately so the game can continue as normally as possible. <3

I will also add that for game integrity reasons, players in this game (me and singersigner) are not invited to read or participate in the conversation over the report.

With that said, I am confused.

That being said...

Vi wouldn't break the rules specifically to gain an advantage as scum

so it's completely null as far as I'm concerned.

*shrug*

Really?

---

I was really hoping to read some Cabd postan when I woke up. It needs to happen today.

---

This is me saying that I see the warning signs in zakk's reads on me (moving from "Vi such master manipulator, scum doing all the things" to "Vi such bad person, obvscum") and continue to hold my Town read nonetheless in buying both genuine frustration and cluelessness.

[Vi]

@Vi...did you do it expecting to get townread?

Basically I think you were being an ass

which I don't think is alignment indicative

. Unless you think it is in which case I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.

There's something deeply wrong here. You're a List Mod, so I would expect a certain perspective from you.
(A) What the actual <blasphemy goes here> is Vi doing (example: UT's reaction)
(B) Would Vi

actually do something that could cost them their job for an advantage as scum wtf

The fact that you had no (public) reaction whatsoever

and are trying to spin it as a null tell

is, for lack of a better word, unnatural to the point where I want you lynched.

@Nacho, Zik, zakk, LLD, Ranmaru

- My vote is ready for this wagon whenever yours is.

---

I have serious questions about whether either Cabd or singersigner would be scum with BBMolla.

---

Let's talk about Cabd's reads list here.
The reads themselves: Not terrible. The reasons themselves? Horrible. Who talks about reads like this when the reason he has for his town town town block is "mutual townread and they look super engaged in this game!"? These reads look like the very embodiment of making up reasons to support the reads: he knows these are reads he is expected to have because LLD and Vi aren't ever getting mislynched, but he's not really sure why they're being read as town as they are.

Acknowledged. The unformatted truth is effective.

Unvote: Master Zik
Vote: Cabd

(L-2)

[Vi]

Confirming.

Once again, the flip and kill do nothing to change my reads. I make no claim to understanding these choices of targets (there are few worlds where I would not have killed Nacho N2).

Jazzmyn previously mentioned the post where Cabd basically admitted he was scum ("those really were my reads"). The only thing worse than that is struggling to come up with reads and then saying the reads that you eventually got were lies and bait.

In that line of thought,

Vote: Jazzmyn

(L-2)

[Vi]

More...

The Cabd wagon makes Nacho look really good. The wagon would not have succeeded without him.

I also said near the end of Day 2 that Cabd-scum or sisi-scum implied BBMolla-Town. That holds given the Cabd flip. I don't think that scum would post a reads list where they call out their scumpartner as their preferred lynch. (unless they expected to go down, but I don't think Cabd did)

Today is a double day and I very strongly wish to lynch from {Jazzmyn, Metal Sonic, Kagami} - in that order of preference. LLD, Nacho, and Ranmaru are right off the table, as before. I veto BBMolla for reasons stated above and veto zakk because I buy that he's genuine and genuinely on the wrong track.

I am acting as my own worst nightmare - I'm posting by phone. Complex posts are out, readthroughs aren't likely, and my response time will be highly variable for the next week. For the same reason, I'm currently using zakk's avatar and don't have an immediately good way to change it until I return to a real computer. On the bright side, if I do things right tomorrow I'll get to see actual fluffbirds.

[Vi]

@mod:

Metal Sonic is voting for LLD.

Tags are super hard by phone.

I didn't even look at the vote count to see that both of my top suspects were voting my top Townread when making my prior posts. Welp,

[Vi]

Posting what seems relevant.

Kagami, I have one very good reason why my double day plan won't fall apart for lynch two. You punks have to get through my Town bloc first! That's why there's no chance LLD will get lynched Today!

My zakk read is primarily based on tone from D2.

I would like to remind everyone that Jazzmyn and Metal Sonic are intensely linked. See also "Rule of So". In addition, has anyone noticed that he only goes full discrediting asshat when I'm around and trying to push things? I agree with Ranmaru - the people who have done the most to make this game an obscene chore are probably scum trying to shout down the people who would otherwise get things done.

Vote does not move. I don't really care what Jazzmyn claims. Metal Sonic is still next (nice zakk read btw).

[Vi]

Oh yeah going out of his way to cheap shot an alleged Town read wuz super dope m8
I remember people doing that to me except I was actually trying to help Ranmar00

I'm going to be out for like ten hours, but I can already tell you when I get back in I will either grief about how Jazzmyn isn't dead or vote Metal Sonic.

[Vi]

I agree that they're intensely linked, but that means it's a terrible idea to lynch both of them at once.

On the one hand, sure. But, unless both Jazzmyn and Metal Sonic flip Town(!?), we get at least two more lynches after this. That's enough to clean up you and zakk.

On the other hand, let me know what the Town motivation for MS's most recent posts is.

[Vi]

Let me know what those terrible reads were. I got RedCoyote, I got vezokpiraka but the wagon already had bloodthirsty huns jumping on it, I admittedly was very slow to Cabd but finally got there, and I got singersigner right until the end of the Day. Is there something you disagree with?

I disagree that Jazz and MS will flip the same alignment, but instead posit that one flipping scum implies the other is scum. More importantly, why has your push on zakk looked so feeble? I had to look back several pages to notice it. You've instead spent most of the Day doing setup spec.

Oh, and, I think there is a higher chance that at least one of Jazzmyn and Metal Sonic is scum than that at least one of Jazzmyn and zakk is scum.

[Vi]

zakk, what alignment do you think Jazzmyn will flip?

[Vi]

One flipping scum implies the other is scum is identical to saying they are the same alignment.

My push on zakk looks feeble to you, because you believe tone is a meaningful way to analyze intent.

@the first line - That's a logical fallacy; MS-scum does not imply Jazzmyn-scum as strongly.

Not that it matters now.

Why aren't you voting?

[Vi]

Also I want to hear precisely what you meant by terrible reads, Kagami. Don't dodge the question.

[Vi]

I can talk about things. Let me know which things specifically; I'm interested in what you have to say.

[Vi]

w^

[Vi]

I think that Kagami gave the best explanation for why I should continue to live in spite of my Hated status. It's not the only explanation but I believe it's the best one.

The only person who wants to policy lynch me, if I'm not mistaken, is zakk. He can :dealwithit: .

I don't think Master Zik outing himself to Kagami is a good sign that they are scum together; if they were he would have said it in their PT given his bizarre desire to keep his identity "secret". As mentioned previously, the only things I know about Metal Sonic are that he was on the blacklist of someone with far more discerning tastes than me, and of course from his prior Master Zik game that he has naive chutzpah as scum and is better-than-average at that alignment.

When it comes down to it we have three people who are trying to outscum each other right now and none of them are BBMolla, so I'm willing to listen to you and Nacho for the time being.

[Vi]

Ebwop- naive should be major
Phone etc.

[Vi]

Normally people who are dead can't post. <.<

I would like for my outstanding questions to be answered before talking about my conclusions. If you will, they're not quite "conclusions" yet.

[Vi]

Vote: Kagami

with me then

VI has been putting half hearted support here for days without ever actually pushing it

It's time to push this lynch. It's time

I feel it

Your story seems to have changed.

[Vi]

To clarify - in the quoted post you were pushing Kagami + Vi as if you did not expect the person you just hammered to flip scum.

[Vi]

I think it's BB who did it, but the town-aligned player would be zakk himself. His reaction suggests that isn't the case.

BB should either deny this, or explain why he thinks vi should be lynched.

I agree that zakk is the only Town player who would think this is a good -idea-. However, the ability to make someone a dictator seems really overpowered for scum from a setup design perspective (more so than double day for Town).

It's not impossible for it to be a scum ability but I'd need to think it through.

I missed the part where BBMolla would be likely to have used this.

[Vi]

I got a message from UT clarifying something important:

UT sent me an updated role PM at the beginning of today, saying that it was a mod error and that he should have sent it to me earlier. He allowed me to perform an action anyway, which I did.

I thought he meant that the mod error was that my initial role PM was incorrect, but the error was just that he forgot to send me the second role PM. Apparently Plum's role changed at the end of Night 1. I was a VT originally, and apparently there exists someone who can change peoples' roles.

Concurred. My role changed at the end of Night 1. I've been not denying that I'm Hated for epic Phoenix Wright-style turnaround potential, but I've been vanilla since the start of Day 2.

I thought that meant there was a Vanillizer in the game (and that it was Salamence, thus my initial question to BBMolla) but I suppose not.

This means there's an open question, but it's better not to ask.

[Vi]

Also@Kagami: Okay, those reads were bad. I'm glad I got rid of them.