Mini 1795: Science [GAME OVER]

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #16 (isolation #0) » Tue May 31, 2016 7:21 pm

VOTE: Sheldon

bazinga!

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #19 (isolation #1) » Tue May 31, 2016 8:22 pm

Also,

BulletNLynchProof head will be V/LA from the 2nd to the 6th. We don't need exemption from prods; Plotinus will still be posting.

This is a teaching hydra and I haven't decided yet how much of a backseat role I'm going to take, but it seems that for most of the month of June, either one of us or the other will be v/la, so that may make the decision for us.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #30 (isolation #2) » Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:33 am

I have 1 townlean, 2 weak townleans, 3 people who are town for now, 1 person i expect to have a read on soon but don't quite have one yet, and am moving our vote to the null read with the most amount of posts.

VOTE: shos

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #33 (isolation #3) » Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:43 am

In post 10, Cabd wrote:I got a vote! Am I in first place now?

Any reason you didn't vote in your first post?

In post 26, Cabd wrote:
In post 1, Antihero wrote:I will players access as they exit the game.
This sounds dirty by the way.

It clearly is the mod hinting at deeply repressed urges.

On a more serious note; I wonder how many other people managed to get the mod to learn something via their submissions.

It's a relatively long time from your first post (~8 hours). Why did you not try to advance the game by commenting on what others have said?

-BNL

This is my first post btw; all other posts, including the one above this, are all by Plotinus. I also have some time now before my V/LA.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #36 (isolation #4) » Wed Jun 01, 2016 2:49 am

In post 32, SirCakez wrote:Do you care to share those assorted reads Salesman?

They are not ready for sale yet.

--P

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #38 (isolation #5) » Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:00 am

In post 37, Cabd wrote:It is incredibly rare that I vote in my first post these days.

The prior post was phoneposting as an egopost; then going to sleep.

I guess that is fair. Still, why did you not try to communicate with the other players something useful for the game? I don't consider "Got the mod to learn something" as something useful.

-bnl

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #41 (isolation #6) » Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:37 am

In post 39, Cabd wrote:I'm not sure why you think not voting in RVS isn't just as, if not more, effective than a random vote?

You don't reel in your line as soon as you cast it... unless you're fly fishing.

I should probably clarify that I was talking about your second post, not your first.

-bnl

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #51 (isolation #7) » Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:35 am

In post 50, Javajoe24 wrote:Am I the only one having trouble understanding shos?

Spoiler: translation

Anyway it's page 3 and i haven't tired of cryptic reads lists yet so:

2 stronger townleans
1 townlean
3 town for now
2 null (i'm still voting in here for now)
1 person I expect to be able to read very soon
2 scumleans
1 scumread

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #54 (isolation #8) » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:37 am

I'm waiting to see if anybody will pick up on what I'm seeing with any of those three players. So far nobody has; the vote(s) on them are still RVS votes as far as I can tell. There are some townpoints on the table for potential mindreaders, but I'm not going to be cagey forever, don't worry.

I've explained my reads at length in my hydra PT.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #79 (isolation #9) » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:43 pm

I agree with Sheldon that Java being a double voter is the sort of thing that was going to come out anyway if he can't switch it off and on, so there is no scum motivation to lie about such a thing and thus telling the truth about it isn't a towntell. I don't think that either his claim or his role are alignment indicative under these circumstances.

Java, did you get anything out of anybody's initial responses to your voting Cabd and then unvoting him without explanation?

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #81 (isolation #10) » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:08 pm

I did too, kinda. I figured you were crumbing some sort of relationship with cabd, but it seemed off because I felt that if you had a two way relationship then it definitely would have been reciprocated, and it wasn't; he didn't respond to your vote at all or say anything about you. I think it's polite to not say anything when you think someone is doing something role related because you don't really need to know the answer and the answer will come out eventually, but it's unusual for an entire playerlist to be polite.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #86 (isolation #11) » Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:26 am

In post 70, SirCakez wrote:Why not? I want to be sold some delicious Plot reads.

Because I've noticed scum are a bit more likely to prompt me to share my thoughts with the rest of the class, usually treating me as if I've simply forgotten to attach names to my readslist, or as if I just didn't know that sharing reads progresses the game. Anen and Bella both did it in the Odds. Jake did it in the last game I ICed. I think it worries them not knowing where I stand.

You and Kuroi are also sucking up to me a little.

I didn't mind Magna's question as much because the answer to his question wasn't immediately obvious and he doesn't seem to care more than he should about my page 3 reads, just about why I was behaving strangely.

I also though Aneninen's entrance was overly apologetic.

In post 83, Cabd wrote:You don't think there's game relevant content in post 26, Sales?

I did, and I've since talked to my hydra partner about it.

In post 84, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Show me an example of a single scum double-voter in a 10-3 setup. I am serious in this request.

And don’t respond with “Outguess the Mod”. A scum double-voter greatly changes the dynamic of a 10-3 set-up. Until the point where there is evidence that supports Town having significant power to overcome that dynamic change I’m pleased to slot Java as Town and filter his posts through that lens in my reads.

Setup spec isn't my one of my strengths so I took you up on this.

Spoiler: 8 games

It is true that double voters are more commonly town than not, and it also true that I have a mild townread on Java, but I'm not willing to consider somebody conftown because they claimed a confirmable role. I am happiest when I can find multiple reasons to townread somebody. It seems that roughly 83% of the time, doublevoters are protown. This is a higher number than the 77% chance anybody has of being town, but it's not in the conftown range.

VOTE: Cakes

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #87 (isolation #12) » Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:43 am

Another place to look that I just thought of is the completed mini theme archives and part 1.

Spoiler: i suppose most people don't care but this was kinda interesting

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #92 (isolation #13) » Thu Jun 02, 2016 8:44 am

@ Magna: I included all of the games that I could find with minimal effort which had a scum double voter, including some that had SKs, for thoroughness, and because I couldn't say anything intelligible about how to balance 9-3-1 vs 10-3, though I'd probably enjoy reading a mafia discussion post on the topic. double voter isn't a very common role in the first place it seems, but in about 5 out of 6 games it was a town role. My mod meta expectations for anti are that the game will not be easily breakable by massclaim, that it will be reasonably balanced and that the setup will be interesting.

Fair enough about Java.

@Cakes:

Too late, i've already given my reads!

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #113 (isolation #14) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:51 am

VOTE: Meeseeks

--P

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #115 (isolation #15) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 4:56 am

I'm not voting you for sarcasm.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #120 (isolation #16) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:00 am

In post 117, Mr Meeseeks wrote:wait i think i figured it

Why am I voting you, then?

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #123 (isolation #17) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:02 am

In post 121, Mr Meeseeks wrote:
In post 116, Mr Meeseeks wrote:i mean i havent done much

I am, indeed, voting you for something you haven't done. Do you know what that something is?

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #127 (isolation #18) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:41 am

[24/26] town games you did the thing within a certain time frame, including on this account.
[0/15] scum games you did the thing (sometimes you did it late, but never within the right time frame, except for twice when i wasn't sure if i should count it or not even at the time; it turns out "i don't know if this counts" doesn't count, and this game there wasn't even that much).

In 88% of the games in which you had not done this thing by now, you were scum.

You can see why I'm concerned.

I thought that if I were wrong, you might out yourself to me assuming that once I knew your identity, I would correctly townread you, because I whiteknighted you the last time we were town together and said I knew how to read you. I also thought there was a chance you'd learnt what it was and were working to change it, but that doesn't seem to be the case either. Instead of either of these things, you seem to be hoping that I haven't alt guessed you.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #129 (isolation #19) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:58 am

There are ways of outing yourself to just one person if you had wanted to go that route. Even "if you knew who my main was, you would be townreading me" would have been extremely vague but done the trick.

I don't have any intention of outing you to anyone who doesn't know who you are, but I am surprised that you list your secret alt in the public place that you have it listed in but that's why I thought it was only a semisecret alt not a true secret alt.

You did the thing as town on your other alt, too.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #132 (isolation #20) » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:24 am

You correctly assumed it was meta, but if it weren't for meta, the something you haven't done could have been scumhunting, reading the game, sharing reads, etc. Because of meta, I know that sometimes it takes you a while to get going, that you like to goof off a bit as both alignments before getting all serious because we're here to have fun, that you often don't have very strong reads at this stage of the game and that's okay because I know that once you get settled in you'll do okay. Some of those things would bother me in an unknown player enough to push on early game anyway, and if that was the missing thing that was bothering me, it would have been easy to clear up. But, okay, you didn't think of that.

I meant the alt that you were town in the game you played with it. You weren't trying to change playstyle on that alt, though, that's true. You technically didn't do the thing in that alt that you were scum in briefly, but you weren't there long enough to do much of anything.

I think that if you were aware of the thing you'd be trying to change it on your main too, probably to do it as both alignments. It's hard to change what you're not aware of.

Have a good meal. I look forward to your catchup.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #163 (isolation #21) » Sat Jun 04, 2016 8:18 pm

Meeseeks, I am sorry that you are scum in this game. If anyone needs me to make a case beyond "I have an 88% accurate meta scumread on him with a sample size of over 40 games", let me know; now that he's produced some actual content, I could make a case without relying on meta if desired.

shos and Sheldon are townreading me for the same thing (effort, even though using site search to find some games wasn't all that much effort), which isn't the best of reasons but I guess it's page 7 and we're all still reaching a bit.

In post 142, Mr Meeseeks wrote:
In post 140, shos wrote:VOTE: Mr Meeseeks
do tell me why you made a big catchup and focused on several players who werent me and then voted me anyway?

What bothers me the most about this question is that if you read the "big" catchup, shos mentioned a townread on me, and then he thought about Magna vs Sheldon for a bit and said that Sheldon looked town in the argument and that he wasn't sure if Magna was scum or not, that he felt uneasy about Magna but wasn't sure if it was enough to scumread him.

In post 148, Aneninen wrote:
In post 97, SheldonCooper wrote:I'm quite heavily townreading Travelling Salesman because I feel like the setup spec was genuine here and 86 really felt like someone trying to solve the game.
Erm... Plotinus-head! Didn't I posted the same as scum in The Odds?

Actually the rest of Sheldon's post sounds like "how to make many friends and very few enemies".

Did you? shos did too, though, in the Odds. I am a little paranoid of both of Sheldon and shos, but I don't think I'd get anything out of pursuing it right now and it would just muddy the water. Meeseek's pushback against shos doesn't feel like shos is bussing him. I would like to see more content from Sheldon.

chilledtea, regarding 154, if you're wondering whether to bus Meeseeks or not, the answer is yes. Even if the rest of you are just goons.

In post 161, Mr Meeseeks wrote:scumteam if you made me choose right now id go shos, moi and cakes, in order of confidence

I mean, from the perspective of hypothetical town you, I'm the one faking a guilty on you right now. But you're right that your chance of lynching any of them is greater than your chance of lynching me.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #167 (isolation #22) » Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:18 pm

I didn't post in any of my games yesterday, partially because I wasn't feeling it but also because I wanted to see what would happen if I stepped back a little, let the thread breathe and give others time to respond.

When people try to play differently on alt, that can mean a bunch of different things. Usually it's a big playstyle thing like "i'm going to be less tunnelly" or "I'm going to explain my thoughts more rigorously" but that's not the kind of change that would affect this particular meta read. Sometimes the alt has a gimmick, and some kinds of gimmicks can make it harder to read someone but I can usually tell when that's happening. For example, I know you're doing the capitalisation thing on purpose, but I already know that you're capable of finding the shift key as both alignments, so it doesn't bother me that you're using small letters instead.

Talk some more about your Cakes read?

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #169 (isolation #23) » Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:41 pm

In post 35, KuroiXHF wrote:Oh sweet. Plotinus is here.

Kuroi, was this an expression of jubiliation or dismay?

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #171 (isolation #24) » Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:56 pm

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #172 (isolation #25) » Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:29 pm

In post 168, Mr Meeseeks wrote:i guess but by playing like this i imagine i am making various unconscious changes to my play (while im not consciously changing a particular aspect, the playstyle is definitely different i think) - all im saying is that your meta read has a 12% chance of being inaccurate at the best of times, nevermind when im intentionally playing differently as an alt (plus with exams on im gonna be playing different)

as for cakez
In post 133, Mr Meeseeks wrote:
In post 108, SirCakez wrote:
In post 7, Fire Assassin wrote:So my first topic discussion I want us all to discuss what were your choices that Antihero didn't pick?

In post 77, Fire Assassin wrote:I am still in support of my RVS vote, and we need a wagon.
So I suggest everyone condense onto my vote.
Please and thank you from your friendly neighborhood assassin.
I didn't like these two posts. First one is a bizarre question that accomplishes nothing and the second is pushing an unexplained RVS wagon because ???
first one, shit dude, you complain about a useless post in post number seven??? while not even commenting on all of the arguably more useless science discussion that extended to the third page? sheesh. second one, uhh, "we need a wagon", he wants a wagon to form so he can analyse it, so theres a clear reason so you cant say "because ???", second scum with magna that would be cool
this one speaks for itself
In post 153, Mr Meeseeks wrote:oh sure why dont i fucking let everyone know who this is an alt of

whats the fucking point, holy shit like why do i even need to prove this like seriously

In post 1957, RadiantCowbells wrote:You wanted to avoid being read for meta and you did things that would make you virtually confscum on your main

and you expect me to townread and/or ignore it? please.
is the best quote i could find without giving away entirely who i am

now back the fuck off and stop doubting me, why the piss would i lie about something so disprovable?
here he was asking a weird and utterly pointless question which seems bizarre and wasteful, like hes trying to look useful when not really doing, you know, that much

not much but theres a reason hes the weaker of my three scumreads

I wasn't really hoping for you to quote back at me something that I've already read; I was hoping for new words, but okay.

Prefacing this by saying that I don't really like Cakes either right now, but I want to see if he keeps doing the thing that's bothering me before I call attention to it. That will happen later this day phase.

1)

Cakes didn't complain that Fire Assassin's 7 was useless. He complained that it was a bizarre question which accomplishes nothing. RQS is worse than RVS because scum can datamine it more effectively than town can,

but

the question didn't bother me terribly much because we sent in science things that we liked rather than trying for any specific role, but I think that even if someone sent in, I dunno *wanders off to wikipedia*, projectile motion, ballistics, vaporific effect, that antihero wouldn't necessarily make them a vig. So, I ignored it rather than pushed on him for it. It

was

a bizarre question that accomplished nothing, but it could've led to outguessing the mod or at least outguessing what kind of roles everybody was trying for, whether they got it or not.

2)

The science discussion that you took part in. There's nothing wrong with some banter and enjoying the flavour at the start of a game.

3)

Why

does

Fire Assassin cling to his 1-vote RVS wagon on GIF instead of joining the 2-vote wagon on shos? If his reasoning is that we need a wagon, why is a 1-vote vanity wagon better than a larger wagon? If he wants an RVS wagon, why doesn't he join a larger one since nobody cares about his RVS vote on GIF? Why are you defending Fire Assassin from Cakes here?

4)

Cakes' question about whether you could provide citations for having been pushed by scum for meta was wasteful? What, was he going to run out of questions?

5)

The question he asked you was one you could answer without outing yourself because it was from the other game you played on this account. If you say something in a game of mafia, people are going to ask you to provide citations. This isn't scummy.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #173 (isolation #26) » Sat Jun 04, 2016 10:52 pm

In post 170, chilledtea wrote:
In post 163, Travelling Salesman wrote:
chilledtea, regarding 154, if you're wondering whether to bus Meeseeks or not, the answer is yes. Even if the rest of you are just goons.

Please stop being cringeworthy.

Like I get that you want to feel that you are a great scumhunter who just caught bussing and stuff.

But it looks ridiculous when you are wrong.

If this was a reaction test or something, it was bad.

In post 171, Travelling Salesman wrote:lol

To expand on this: nobody is going to care if I'm wrong about my page 7 read on a slot that had at that point posted twice and has now posted three times, especially on a player that I haven't played with before. Everyone who meets the experience requirements for this game has been wrong on page 7 before so I don't think anybody will think it's ridiculous if I'm wrong about you but I don't think I am.

I

didn't

catch you bussing. I caught you saying that Meeseeks was null and that some of his reactions seem genuine¹ and other reactions of his seem strange², but then you said that there's at least one scum in {anen, cakes, meeseeks}. Are we defining null differently?

I believe that he is genuinely upset that he was altguessed and genuinely disappointed that a scumgame he was looking forward to has turned out like this already. Scum have feelings too, and I care about his.
I am pretty sure he's seen naked votes before in his mafia career. He's not a newb. So yeah, it was a strange reaction.

From my perspective in which Meeseeks is far more likely to be scum than any other read we're likely to get on day 1, your unwillingness to call him anything but null but willingness to put him in the potential scum pool in 154 looks like someone who doesn't know which way the wind is going to blow but wants to be ready for it. You're positioning yourself to vote him while calling him null. That's scummy.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #177 (isolation #27) » Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:31 pm

Re: Cakes/Fire Assassin I'd like to see what either of them think of this.

In post 175, Mr Meeseeks wrote:ahahahaha me looking forwards to a scumgame? do you honestly think this think this, because i do *NOT* look forwards to playing as scum

I think that you were looking forward to this game because yay science. I know that you prefer to play as town, but I had thought that you were growing more comfortable as scum lately and feeling more confident in your abilities, especially after your success in [redacted]. I know that [redacted2] was a frustrating scumgame for you because [etc] but I also thought you did really well in that game in spite of [youknow].

In post 175, Mr Meeseeks wrote:piss off, i often call out naked votes. ive seen them before, and 90% of the time they are backed up by shitty reasons when called out (see literally this fucking time!!!!!) because they usually dont give a reason because theyre scared theyll get called out when they do, so its not even close to a strange reaction, dont give me this bull.

Naked votes are usually a reaction test of some sort. There don't need to be fantastic reasons on page 7. I assumed his naked vote was because he was sheeping me. Your response to it was overblown. You accused him of talking about other players but voting you instead, but the other players he talked about were "townread, townread, i don't know what i think of magna yet" reads, so voting any of them (except magna maybe) would also have been unexpected.

In post 176, Mr Meeseeks wrote:if i am right about one of my three, ill be taking a close look at salesman because theres something odd there. problem is im too used to plotinus' style and it keeps seeming a bit off but then i remember its a hydra so im gonna get alarm bells, because ploti is a much player than bnl so when something is said that seems odd or backwards or something that they should realise is stupid, i have to keep in mind it might just be bnl :/

bnl is the one who signs -bnl. He is also V/LA until the 6th so it's just been me for now. He's posted in our hydra PT though.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #180 (isolation #28) » Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:50 pm

I need to make lunch, but 161 was the one I felt was overblown but you're right that it came after shos accused you of "making such a fuss".

I think 142 was okay? "do tell me why you made" is a more loaded phrasing than "please tell me why you made" or "why did you make", it suggests a stronger reaction, suggests that you think that shos has done something scummy.

In post 146, Mr Meeseeks wrote:for... the reaction? you voted for something i hadnt done yet? i didnt realise you could warp the fabric of spacetime, golly gosh

He voted you, probably expecting that you would reactl ike [x] as scum and like [y] as town and you reacted like [x] so he continued voting you? that's usually how these things work? I mean you can argue that he's wrong but doing something to see how someone will react this early in the game isn't scummy?

The paranoia is a bit late but it's one of the things that I've been missing.

I really need to make lunch and then do things that aren't playing mafia.

pedit: I see that chilled has posted but haven't read the post yet.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #181 (isolation #29) » Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:46 am

In post 179, chilledtea wrote:That's not as much scummy as it is your perception of what scum usually does.

Semantics. and it goes without saying that when I say something is scummy it means that i believe that scum does this thing more often than town. I am always speaking from my own perspective. That is how the game is played.

You could have simply said that chilled tea might have been scummy or something.

If someone said "Plotinus might have been scummy or something," if I dignified it with a response, the response would be "okay, well, that's certainly a start. Let me know when you've formed an opinion about whether I was or wasn't scummy". "Might have been scummy" doesn't get people lynched. "Might have been scummy" isn't a threat and doesn't produce meaningful reactions. You might or might not have been scummy and I might or might not have soup on the stove (spoiler: You were and I do).

The nonsensical "hey you should bus him btw even if you are goon". Like that is just ridiculous because I can't answer that in anyway. It also got on my nerves because of the arrogant style of posting.

You can answer that post in a number of different ways. 170 was the response you chose. You could have naked voted him. You could have said that you're not scum. You could have voted somebody else. You could have talked about your Meeseeks read in more detail. You could have written several paragraphs on how he might be scum after all followed by a vote. You could have voted me. You could have talked some more about your other reads. You could've asked me why I thought you were reluctant to bus Meeseeks. You could've said "lol, no". You could have reacted in some other way. Some of these reactions would have been better than others. You always have a choice in how you respond to something.

The response you chose in 170 was:

You implied that I as a misguided townie,
who should be very embarrassed with themselves for scumreading you on page 7
and that if I should happen to be incorrect, I should feel dumb
because I'm not as good at scumhunting as you think that I think that I am
all of which implies that you think I'm town
and that it was wrong of me to try to get a reaction out of you
because you're too good to fall for something like that.
In other words, your response was an attempt to discredit me.

You are treating me like a townie who should be taken down a peg because you are afraid that I will be listened to, but town does not win by silencing town voices. Most people are wrong about at least some of their reads at this stage in the game, but it does not matter because we have plenty of time for course corrections and to figure it out in the end. I can be wrong, and I've seen the players I look up to be wrong often enough. If you are town, there is nothing to be afraid of. What is happening is the early game sorting process through which all of us are struggling to find reads as you have probably seen in your 13 completed games.

The reason why meeseeks is null is something I can't point at. I am more suspicious of cakes than I am of meseeks.

Meseeks is definitely not a town read, and his genuineness in some things he has said makes me doubtful of the small scum read on him.

So I rather take my time with reading him. So he is null.

Talk about cakes, then.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #183 (isolation #30) » Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:45 am

There is nothing wrong with preflip associatives. It is true they should be taken with a grain of salt, and if I wanted to flip you first then that would be cause for alarm, but I don't. I have my top scumread and there are two other scum that I need to find. I find you scummy both in connection with Meeseeks and separately, but he's my primary scumread so I want to lynch him first.

My assumption wasn't that you are scum together with meeseeks if and only if he is a mafia PR and you are a goon. My assumption is that Meeseeks is scum, and I can get the most out of this dayphase by finding his buddies. The way you approached the situation pinged me so I pushed you on that. Part of that push was telling you that even if he is valuable member of your scumteam, you should bus him because I'm unlikely to back down.

It doesn't matter whether you share your townreads or not; I can tell who you're townreading by the way you talk about them. I don't need you to change anything about your playstyle on my account.

But if you do something scummy I will push you. I looked up your games and you don't get lynched very often as town, just a couple times in LYLO and once in that lover's game that frozen modded. You normally get nightkilled (not necessarily early on) or endgamed. I wanted to see whether you're lynchbaity or not. You're not. I haven't had time to read your ISOs in those games yet.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #190 (isolation #31) » Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:15 am

In post 189, SirCakez wrote:I have no clue what to think of this because I have no idea who's alt Meeseeks is.

Oh, sorry, the part I meant was the bit in 168 where he explains (or requotes) his reasons for scumreading you and talks about you pushing Fire Assassin for a few things and then I said what I thought of it in 172 and then Meeseeks talks some more about his you and fire in 174. Whose alt he is isn't really relevant to that part. I think you thought I was asking your opinion on the rest of 177 but I wasn't.

He provided the citation in 153, in the post you quoted in 188.

@Meeseeks regarding 187 and the naked voting thing: if you don't know who somebody is, or haven't played with them before, you can still rely on more generic scumtells like I'm trying to do with chilledtea.

@shos: have you noticed that scum are more likely to do that than town? I thought that thinking of a better thing to say half an hour after the conversation has ended was a fairly universal human experience. I remember going back a month later and telling somebody "zipper" because I'd forgotten the word the last time we interacted but by then they'd forgotten the initial conversation.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #193 (isolation #32) » Sun Jun 05, 2016 6:47 am

That makes sense, shos.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #212 (isolation #33) » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:48 pm

Hello everyone, I'm back from V/LA and am posting again.

Haven't fully caught up yet, but firstly I'd like to ask:

@SirCakez: What are your reads on Kuroi and Meeseeks?

-bnl

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #235 (isolation #34) » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:19 pm

In post 222, SirCakez wrote:
In post 212, Travelling Salesman wrote:Hello everyone, I'm back from V/LA and am posting again.

Haven't fully caught up yet, but firstly I'd like to ask:

@SirCakez: What are your reads on Kuroi and Meeseeks?

-bnl
Kuroi nulltown, Meeseeks nullscum

Explain to me your Kuroi read?

-bnl

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #237 (isolation #35) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:21 am

Meeseeks is still scum, guys. If he were town, there'd be more votes on him. shos is like this as both alignments early game; I don't see any point in policy lynching him when we could lynch actual scum.

Today, I spent a while going through chilledtea's games to see what he's like. He hasn't had many scumgames yet so mostly i just wanted to get a baseline for what isn't alignment indicative for him. I just read the first week's worth of posts from each game because we're only about a week into our game and I wanted to think about his entrances. He has replaced into most of the games he's played which makes it a little tricky because there's more material there for him to analayse but in some of the games it was fairly early on that he replaced in, page 4 or something, so that's okay. He only has two scumgames and one doesn't really count because he was lynched in an rvs wagon on page 1.

Spoiler: what chilled tea is like

tl;dr: Chilledtea is a player who is not afraid to share his reads as town early on in a game, and often talks about his scumreads and townreads. He's not afraid to try to call the scumteam very early on (often within his first 5 posts) and doesn't mind using preflip associatives. He doesn't

explain

his reads usually this early, often offering vague non explanations like "i scumread him because of the way he posts," if he offers an explanation at all.

As scum, he struggles to fake reads and remember what his fake reads are, and is more likely to complain about people's posting styles. As town, you really get the feeling that he's trying to figure out whether someone is lynchbait or actually scum.

As town, by this point in a game, he is usually doing more than he is, has more reads than he does. He tends to post mafia theory stuff now and then as town that I don't necessarily agree with but it's consistent from game to game that these are things that he believes to be true, and that's missing here: here, when he complains about somebody's playstyle or complains about something somebody is doing, it's something he's done himself as town. And his self meta is wrong; he does share townreads very early as town when he has them.

I think he is scum having trouble generating reads and not knowing how to fake the read situations and constant re-evaluating that he does as town.

so that's two.

If the third isn't one of the inactives or one of the players i'm putting off trying to read until they have a larger body of work, then Cakes I guess, but I'm less confident on that than I am of Meeseeks/chilledtea.

Meeseeks/tea/cakes seems kinda easy, though.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #238 (isolation #36) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:23 am

In post 237, Travelling Salesman wrote:I think he is scum having trouble generating reads and not knowing how to fake the read *situations and constant re-evaluating that he does as town.

*read

switches

words are hard.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #241 (isolation #37) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:05 am

I think that if me vs meeseeks were a TvT then there would be more opportunistic votes on him. Instead people seem to be taking a wait and see approach and looking for reasons to avoid the wagon. Nobody wants to explain why Meeseeks is town or talk me down but very few people want to vote him either even though a few people are noncommitally scumreading him.

I chose chilledtea because he was my other scumread but he wasn't posting enough in the game thread for me to really get a feel for him and he's a player that i haven't played with before and while i've read games he played in before i never focused on him very much. I haven't played with GIF or Magna or Java either but Java has the claim going for him. I also feel like with GIF or Magna, reading through their games would be more effort and I'd either get lucky and stumble onto something

or

(and I feel this is the more likely), I might get a feeling that something is alignment indicative but i'd have to read a lot of games to get a good sample size to be sure that what i'm seeing exists, and in magna's case he's been away from MS for some years and doesn't have so many completed games since returning, so a sample size big enough to satisfy me might not exist. Neither of them are new enough that I'd expect to find something like "has trouble faking reads as scum".

I've played with everybody else before.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #245 (isolation #38) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:53 am

In post 242, chilledtea wrote:The argument that people's play doesn't change with experience, is silly.

This is not an argument I have made.

In post 242, chilledtea wrote:I consider not sharing town reads an improvement.

It's not.

The newbie game you were scum in was definitely weird, but what I'm arguing here is that you're not playing as well, not putting as much thought in, not evaluating the game with same level of depth, etc. as you normally do early on as town. I'm not arguing that you are playing to your scum meta, because you don't have one yet.

In post 243, chilledtea wrote:Also, in mini 1772, you correctly pointed out that I didn't like rvs, lurked around etc etc.

Did the same in diffusion of power. Died night 1 which was strange.

I have my reasons for my changes in my game and they are warranted. Small experiments with your play is important if you want to improve.

And people do not have the same amount of time to play mafia, sometimes more activity, less activty happens.

It is a good thing that these aren't why I'm scumreading you. But let's talk about RVS then. The game left RVS around page 3 and we're not on page 10. Usually, once the game gets out of RVS, you have more to contribute and more thoughts on what happened.

I'm noticing that whenever I say you're doing something scummy, you say "that's my playstyle" and when I look it up and point out that it's never been your playstyle in any of your towngames before, you say that it's your

new

playstyle.

I mean, I get it, because I have 28 completed games (15 town, 11 scum, 2 3rd party) and I feel like none of them really "count" for what I feel like my meta is like because there was something unique about each of them. But I realise it's kind of a ridiculous way to feel about my completed games and isn't a good counterargument to what someone else might say about them. It's okay to have 1 or 2 "that one doesn't count because I was sick" or "that one doesn't count because I was an innocent child" but everybody else is going to count them whether we like it or not.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #246 (isolation #39) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:01 am

In post 244, Mr Meeseeks wrote:first of all, are they? second of all, so why arent you questioning them rather than just using it to confbias your read on me? cakez is the only offender i notice yet you havent talked to him about it at all, and considering your pov you probably should, since he completely ignored my attempt to confront him about it.

We are questioning Cakes and I want to read some more of his games.

The other was chilledtea, which I called him out for. Anen was scumreading you but then he stopped. I'm not sure why he stopped. Fire Assassin is townreading you. Kuroi and shos are voting you. Sheldon doesn't want to lynch you because you're frustrated.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #249 (isolation #40) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:34 am

In post 154, chilledtea wrote:Meseeks is .... null. Some of his reactions seem genuine. His reaction to naked vote from shos seemed
strange
.

Pretty sure we have at least one
scum
in {anen, cakes,
meseeks
}.

He calls you null but he puts you in his scumpool. That was in particular the first thing that bothered me about him.

Cakes will take more energy that I have today. I'm paying attention, it's just he's doing something that I want to see if he keeps doing it or not. My hydra partner asked him something and we're waiting for him to reply to that. I asked him some things and he answered and i'm meaning to reply to it but i'm not really in a "have a conversation" headspace i'm in a "do solitary stuff and then report back" sort of headspace today.

I need to read some of his towngames I think.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #251 (isolation #41) » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:39 am

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #264 (isolation #42) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:36 am

Ok, so BNL is pretty much read up. I'm trusting Plot on Meeseeks being our strongest scumread, and I also have chilledtea and SirCakez as my next strongest scumreads in that order.

CT scumread:

In his first few posts, he gives a few reads, which is fine. However, then comes this:

In post 170, chilledtea wrote:
In post 163, Travelling Salesman wrote:
chilledtea, regarding 154, if you're wondering whether to bus Meeseeks or not, the answer is yes. Even if the rest of you are just goons.

Please stop being cringeworthy.

Like I get that you want to feel that you are a great scumhunter who just caught bussing and stuff.

But it looks ridiculous when you are wrong.

If this was a reaction test or something, it was bad.

He seems pretty annoyed, but what really pings me is that he seems to know we're town, as evident from "you want to feel like a great scumhunter", "you are wrong". At the same time, he does not seem to take a stance on our alignment. It's like he dislikes us, but doesn't call us scummy.

In post 179, chilledtea wrote:
In post 173, Travelling Salesman wrote:
In post 170, chilledtea wrote:
In post 163, Travelling Salesman wrote:
chilledtea, regarding 154, if you're wondering whether to bus Meeseeks or not, the answer is yes. Even if the rest of you are just goons.

Please stop being cringeworthy.

Like I get that you want to feel that you are a great scumhunter who just caught bussing and stuff.

But it looks ridiculous when you are wrong.

If this was a reaction test or something, it was bad.

In post 171, Travelling Salesman wrote:lol
To expand on this: nobody is going to care if I'm wrong about my page 7 read on a slot that had at that point posted twice and has now posted three times, especially on a player that I haven't played with before. Everyone who meets the experience requirements for this game has been wrong on page 7 before so I don't think anybody will think it's ridiculous if I'm wrong about you but I don't think I am.

I
didn't
catch you bussing. I caught you saying that Meeseeks was null and that some of his reactions seem genuine¹ and other reactions of his seem strange², but then you said that there's at least one scum in {anen, cakes, meeseeks}. Are we defining null differently?

I believe that he is genuinely upset that he was altguessed and genuinely disappointed that a scumgame he was looking forward to has turned out like this already. Scum have feelings too, and I care about his.

I am pretty sure he's seen naked votes before in his mafia career. He's not a newb. So yeah, it was a strange reaction.
From my perspective in which Meeseeks is far more likely to be scum than any other read we're likely to get on day 1, your unwillingness to call him anything but null but willingness to put him in the potential scum pool in 154 looks like someone who doesn't know which way the wind is going to blow but wants to be ready for it. You're positioning yourself to vote him while calling him null. That's scummy.
That's not as much scummy as it is your perception of what scum usually does.

You could have simply said that chilled tea might have been scummy or something.

The nonsensical "hey you should bus him btw even if you are goon". Like that is just ridiculous because I can't answer that in anyway. It also got on my nerves because of the arrogant style of posting.

The reason why meeseeks is null is something I can't point at. I am more suspicious of cakes than I am of meseeks.

Meseeks is definitely not a town read, and his genuineness in some things he has said makes me doubtful of the small scum read on him.

So I rather take my time with reading him. So he is null.

And here the next part of the conversation continues, and the same thing happens. He is able to take a stance on Meeseeks and Cakez, but not us. But what's worse is that he doesn't seem interested in figuring out our alignment, and talks to us like we are bad town, not considering we could be scum.

In fact, this same pattern is present in the rest of his posts talking to us. He says "Your playstyle is bad" etc. but does not seem to want to find out our alignment. Yes, he does say at some points about us being possible town or possible scum but he never wants to find out which.

Cakez scumread coming next.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #267 (isolation #43) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:03 am

So next up, I have a scumread on Cakez, because he seems to be scumreading some people yet hides it.

In post 89, SirCakez wrote:
In post 73, KuroiXHF wrote:Javajoe's reaction was too calm and from my experience with him, I don't think he'd fake that level of calmness.
This contradicts itself.
"too calm"
"don't think he'd fake that calm"

What the hell does it mean?

In post 94, SirCakez wrote:
In post 93, KuroiXHF wrote:How does that contradict?
Too calm implies it's scummy
Then saying you don't think he could fake that calm implies townie

Which is it?

Here he is trying to attack Kuroi by pointing out a contradiction, but doesn't say it out that he is indeed scumreading him.

In post 118, SirCakez wrote:Meeseeks why are you saying you'll catch up later but still posting here actively without catching up?

In post 122, SirCakez wrote:
In post 119, Mr Meeseeks wrote:bcause i cant be arsed to catch up now, but im not going to entirely fail to contribute entierly and completely when i still can do something
The game is 5 pages. If you have time to make a bunch of post you can catch up on 5 pages.

Same thing here. There is an implied scumread on Meeseeks with these posts but he doesn't say it.

I find it scummy when someone tries to point out why someone is scummy but doesn't say it himself (or with obvious actions such as a vote or intent to vote). This is because scum look at ways to discredit someone to make him look scummy, but he is scared that saying the scumread may look opportunistic/picking at minor points.

Which is why I tested him in 212, and he replies:

In post 222, SirCakez wrote:
In post 212, Travelling Salesman wrote:Hello everyone, I'm back from V/LA and am posting again.

Haven't fully caught up yet, but firstly I'd like to ask:

@SirCakez: What are your reads on Kuroi and Meeseeks?

-bnl
Kuroi nulltown, Meeseeks nullscum

I tried to follow up in 235 but he hasn't replied, but this is fine for now. I actually don't know how to read this reply, but it definitely doesn't shake off my scumread on him, so I have a scumread here too.

-bnl (#264 was by BNL too)

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #269 (isolation #44) » Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:01 am

Also, BNL will be V/LA (again) from 10 to 13 June. Expecting more internet access there so I'll likely still be posting here, unlike my first V/LA.

-bnl

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #307 (isolation #45) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:03 am

I started writing this post yesterday and then got distracted and i've edited it since then because i've changed my mind on a few things (my initial response to chilledtea was very different) but i'm leaving in the questions to kuroi that i know a few other people also asked since i wrote them, because they haven't been answered yet and i don't have the patience to reword that section.

In post 254, Aneninen wrote:
In post 241, Travelling Salesman wrote:I think that if me vs meeseeks were a TvT then there would be more opportunistic votes on him.
Why?
And another question: why not on you?
Also, there are others, eg. Shos who are involved in the story.

Because I townposted too much earlier. What do you think of shos, then? Also, you remember in the odds when I was mislynching spiffeh, both you and Bella were on the wagon. Sheeping town who are wrong about something and letting them take the fall for it is okay scumplay.

In post 304, Aneninen wrote:
In post 270, SirCakez wrote:And I am scumreading Meeseeks. This is really awful reasoning for a scumread. Like my townread on you just sank like a rock, that's how fake I think this is.
I strongly think Meeseeks is a planned mislynch by some scums.

But I'm the one pushing the Meeseek's lynch, so. I was the one who started it, I'm the one claiming to be able to read him. If Meeseek's is a mislynch, I'm the one who is going to end up strongarming it through. Are you calling me scum and if so why are you doing it so circumspectly?

In post 303, Aneninen wrote:I've been thinking about the whole TravellingSalesman/ChilledTea argument. I don't know why, but it doesn't feel like town-vs-town, but, unfortunately, I don't know which one of them is scum.

Why not? I suggested to bnl that we give him a little bit of space to see what he did with it, because sometimes players can get backed into a corner and not be able to dig themselves out (like you remember with Spiffeh in the Odds). Why can't it be that a newer player genuinely expects that everyone who is not bad at mafia should be able to read them accurately when they only have 3 posts? Why can't it be that I genuinely thought he was behaving strangely and pushed on that? I'm not sold on towntea yet but I do want to see what he'll do when i'm not anklebiting him. Do you think scum are more likely than town to respond to being scumread by turning it into a pissing contest about who is a better player?

@Chilledtea: it seems that we're annoying each other and that's probably going to cloud our judgement and make it harder to get an accurate read. I feel like we're talking at cross purposes a lot and that you're not really reading my posts but are responding to stuff that isn't there, reading things into what i'm saying, and until you said you were annoyed, I thought it was scummy that you were doing that because twisting words is one way to play as scum, but being annoyed is another explanation for what is happening. We see something that makes us upset and we stop trying to understand and start fighting back.

@Kuroi: Why are you townreading Cabd and not Java? You liked 201 by Aneninen, saying that it gave you townvibes, but you put him in your leanscum group. How come? You say that Cakes is playing to his town meta; I find Cakes pretty difficult to read. Can you talk about what you expect from townCakes, or what aspects of scumCakes are missing here? If he fits with his town meta, why do you want to vote him?

In post 261, KuroiXHF wrote:- Plotinus is always hard to read, but his scum hunting, even if he's the kind to bus, seems beneficial right now. BnL seems to be a good partner and is following suit.

I agree with Anen on this; this kind of feels like you know Meeseeks is scum and are threatening to push me for bussing him on day 2. Also you seem to be the only person in this game who likes my hydra partner's posting. Though I think Anen was calling Meeseeks town for this post? Either way it bothers me.

I was going to reply to meeseeks next but this is post is long enough and i don't think my reply to meeseeks will be brief so I think i'll split it up.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #308 (isolation #46) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:29 am

In post 208, Mr Meeseeks wrote:oh good "omgus" as a buzzword

i hate the overuse of omgus - omgus is literally "you voted me so ill vote you", not "i have a good reason for voting you and you are also voting me". overreacting? i havent even gone all caps yet which i did several times in my previous game. your description of my weird "progression of reads" ...i dont get what you mean?

Friend Meeseeks, I agree with you that voting somebody who voted for you isn't that great a scumtell and that there can be situations for example if most people are scumreading player A then anybody that player A attacks can counter with "omgus" when instead the problem is that 12 people are scumreading player A and 3 of them must also be scum because math.

But I also can think of examples where you, as scum, found it difficult to push back on anybody but the few people who were scumreading you, and that your read on them was primarily a response to their read on you, so that does kind of ping me. idk it's a nuanced kind of thing. I'm pretty sure I've seen you omgus as town, too, though.

In post 208, Mr Meeseeks wrote:and you disagree that using "generic scumtells" for something with so many varied reactions such as nakedly voting someone isnt a bit dodgy?

You're playing on an alt, so generic scumtells are what most people have to go on. If you want people to take into account how you in particular tend to react to certain things, you play on your main. If you want to escape from all of the meta stuff, you play on an alt. I think I'm going to try alting a bit after this; I'm really tired of being Plotinus. I need an alt for real life, too. >.>

In post 208, Mr Meeseeks wrote:uhh... what? cakez isnt voting me? that makes... little sense. just look at his iso, hes spent wayyyyy more time focusing on me than fire assassin, his current vote. like, hes had one or two sentences about him, ive had entire posts dedicated to me. hm.

This is, for the record, one of the main things that was pinging me about Cakes, but it was a preflip associative with you. In Borderlands, he spent a long time distancing from his buddies but never voting them. I need to look up if he treats scumreads like that as town or not. That's why I wasn't talking much about Cakes before, I wanted to see if it continued or not.

In post 218, Mr Meeseeks wrote:shos, have you even been reading this game? seriously?

This is, unfortunately, not alignment indicative for shos. I played with townshos once and scumshos once and I didn't see much of a difference between the two.

Um, it turned out that the only things i have to say right now in response to your posts are chatty things. why. but you requoted 133 but i think there was something in there i wanted to ask about.

In post 133, Mr Meeseeks wrote:oh yay claims already :/ i mean i understand but ehh, double voter is something i prefer people to keep secret, but you can go as a townlean for now i guess

How would he keep it a secret if he can't turn it off? Eventually people would notice that he's never voting...

I'm not happy with this post but i'm going to post it anyway.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #310 (isolation #47) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:47 am

I want to go through cakes iso tomorrow and think about it and respond to some stuff he's asked us but i'm tired tonight and i'm not sure how communicative my typing is. I did want to ask him why he assumed malice from my hydra partner when he was townreading our slot instead of misunderstanding with the "too calm" thing (I also read it initially as "too calm to be town" because I think it takes more to upset me as scum than as town, the line is in a different place.)

Unrelatedly, I feel like my hydra partner and I have both arrived at the same three scumreads from different paths but I'm not sure how much of that is my reads influencing his. I feel like i'm either onto something or i'm completely wrong and scum are sitting back and letting me be wrong. I might be trying too hard to get it right when it's not the kind of thing you can force to happen.

I've been trying to hang back a bit these past few days because I wasn't feeling it and because i realised we had the most posts and wanted to see what, if anything, happened when we weren't here making noise but i haven't really gotten anything out of it yet.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #311 (isolation #48) » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:57 am

In post 309, Mr Meeseeks wrote:please read my posts and make your mind up on your own. i would like to hear the opinion of someone in your hydra who doesnt have the confbias of a meta read from the start and maybe you can help convince ploti of the truth

for the record i would like this to happen too.

In post 309, Mr Meeseeks wrote:yeah but im still hoping to convince the dingus to do so through calling him out. it was more of a genearl "are you fucking kidding me" than finding it scummy, i just found it incompeteny

fair enough. Cakes isn't reading the game either. and some other people too I think. + various v/la people and Sheldon seems to be tired of mafia in general (I'm reading this as town from him in particular but it's possible that it's not alignment indicative.)

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #331 (isolation #49) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:50 am

I have a migraine today and the expired Metamizole I took has helped but I'm not going to get a post together today after all. Tomorrow, I hope.

I will say that I think Anen is probably town for his push on me because he found it easier to just townread me in Micro 600 and I like the depth at which he is approaching his reads on me and other slots even though he is wrong about me for now. I think he misunderstood some things I said or didn't know why I said them. I'll try tomorrow.

I don't know what to make of Kuroi right now.

I think I was townreading GIF but I've forgotten why and i might not have been. Cabd and Java are town enough.

Sheldon, I think you could be town, but I'm going to need you to show me the light about shos because I've mislynched him as town in the Odds for playing like this and I think I would be able to read him more accurately in a day phase or two but I don't think I will be able to do so at this point in this game. I also would like to see what Magna does when he gets back from his V/LA because I feel like early game was just you two talking at cross purposes and having a playstyle clash. I don't have reads on either of them right now because I'd like to see more from them. A towncase for Cakes would also help because he's someone I struggle to read quite a bit.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #337 (isolation #50) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:47 pm

Okay, it's morning and i'm going through Kuroi's posts.

In post 314, KuroiXHF wrote:How many games have you played with Javajoe? I'm played like... five. I've voted and lynched him and all of this stuff for a long time. He signs up for a lot of games, but doesn't play them. Maybe you don't know because you don't play with him much, but I don't like naturally not-scum reading people because they're normally scummy.

I want to like this because it's refusing to jump on a lynchbaity player who would normally be easy to push as scum but it's been previously discussed that Java is likely town due to his role and it's unlikely that a wagon on him would gain support at all. I'd like it more if he was earlier on the Java-is-town train.

In post 314, KuroiXHF wrote:I don't know how I feel about this reaction. Yeah, you're obviously the one who started the Meeseeks lynch and if you look at the vote count, I'm right by your side, but I take issue with the "Are you calling me scum?" It seems like a challenge and given your reputation here, it sounds like you're expecting people to shy away.

This isn't a fair way to approach me. I'm tired of people putting me on a pedestal and then acting like I asked them to put me there. I don't like the suggestion that I should treat Aneninen with kid gloves just because

you

are afraid of me.

This is also an out of proportion reaction to my interaction with Anen. If I were strongarming a lynch on somebody (and you'll notice that I'm not doing that right now even on my strongest scumread -- and go on and ask yourself why that is), then you might have a reason to ask me to pull my punches, but I'm not. I asked Anen a question, and if he shied away from me I would get something from that and if he kept pushing I would get something from that. Anen is not a newbie, and I'm not his IC; he has more completed games than I do, he has tricked me as scum before, he has more game posts than I do, he has been playing mafia longer than I have. He doesn't need to be treated with kid gloves. And anyway, I do think he is town after my exchange with him and I am left wondering why you felt the need to intervene.

It is unreasonable to ask me to walk on eggshells to a greater extent than I am already doing. This isn't a newbie game and I'm not anybody's IC right now except BNL's.

In post 314, KuroiXHF wrote:Go through Java's ISO and tell me that it doesn't reek of coasting. The thing is - again - I've played with Java and this is typical for him, so I'm not scum reading him. Still, he gives me no reason to town read him. Cabd is still one of our less active players, sure, but I have a town gut read. Now that you had me go through his ISO, I do think that gut isn't enough for a town read. I think when I put my read list together, it looked like I didn't have enough town reads, so I put him there to balance things out.

Does Java's double voter claim affect your read on his slot?

In post 314, KuroiXHF wrote:I said that it was townie enough to keep me from lynching him, because at that time, I wasn't sure if I wanted to vote him or Meeseeks. I actually kind of like Aneninen pushing me, but I'm not confident in town reading him. I do believe I already posted why I don't think he's town.

Your inability to take consistent stances is bothering me.

In post 314, KuroiXHF wrote:From the beginning of the game, I've immediately scum read Cakes and the reason for that was Killer Instinct Mafia. From the start, he acted completely different from the prior game (Sharing Is Caring - Open Game). I immediately town read him and I was sure he was town. Turned out - scum. So, he acts one way - scum. He changes his tune completely - scum. You can understand why I'm distrustful of him, and yeah, I can understand why I'd find it difficult to read him.

And I didn't like his first few questions on me. His criticisms on my read of Joe and the constant way he appears to try to catch me in a lie does not sit right with me. Him back tracking on his criticism of me sounds awkward too, but I'd find it awkward if he kept on me with that whole Joe-read, so I felt it's best to put him in null territory until I see some more from him.

I asked you why you were townreading him and why you felt he was playing to his town meta. You feel he's playing to his town meta because you are distrustful of him and find it difficult to read him and because when he was scum you townread him and when he was scum in a different game and behaved differently then you scumread him and you didn't like how he's behaving so that's why you're townreading him? Oh but now that it looks like some people are looking askance at him maybe he's not town so better put him in the null territory yeah?

In post 314, KuroiXHF wrote:I don't really have anything to say to this, at least about Meeseeks. As far as bussing goes, I'm voting WITH you. If I'm scum and Meeseeks is scum, wouldn't that mean that I would also be bussing him? Why would you need two scum bussing a third? That doesn't make any sense to me.

And is there a problem for me liking BnL's posting? He posts similarly to you. Sometimes, I wouldn't be able to tell were not for the sign-off tags.

BNL gets mislynched a lot; I think because sometimes he misreads things and people assume he's misrepresenting them instead if he winds up scumreading someone based on a misunderstanding. When he posted recently a bunch of people who were townreading us said they weren't townreading us anymore. There's nothing wrong with liking his posting: I like that he's posting, too. But if you can't tell our posting apart then I think you're not reading very closely, and if some of his posts ping a lot of people but don't ping you then I wonder why that is; maybe you have strategic reasons for wanting to townread us.

In post 315, KuroiXHF wrote:This reminds me of why I scum read him. He scum reads anything and everything I've typed. This means that
unless I'm obvious scum (and by my lack of votes, I'm not)
he's either biased-town who is trying to find a reason to lynch me because he thinks I'm scum or he's scum and trying to get me lynched.

This bolded bit is atrocious.

Kuroi does kind of need kid gloves though because he can be kinda lynchbaity, or at least he was a few months ago when I played with him but he's probably grown as a player since then. Also, I sometimes have a trouble where if someone is making a game unfun for me then I tend to scumread them for it, but I'm aware of that so I try to compensate for it but I'm not really good at calibrating it and I never know if I'm compensating too much or too little for it.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #338 (isolation #51) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:07 pm

In post 322, Aneninen wrote:
In post 307, Travelling Salesman wrote:Because I townposted too much earlier.
Telling how town you are doesn't make people townread you.

This I think you misunderstood me. You asked me why in Me vs Meeseeks, people were voting Meeseeks but not voting me. The answer is that they were townreading me. I wasn't saying how town I was, I was saying that I townposted too much -- wrote a lot of posts of the type that people tend to townread me for writing even though I can write them as both alignments. Do you remember in the Odds I said to Bella, "Bella, you are townposting and that bothers me?" That is because Bellaphant townposts more often as scum than as town.

In post 322, Aneninen wrote:
In post 307, Travelling Salesman wrote:What do you think of shos, then? Also, you remember in the odds when I was mislynching spiffeh, both you and Bella were on the wagon. Sheeping town who are wrong about something and letting them take the fall for it is okay scumplay.
Are you saying that Shos's been doing so?
I don't know what to think of him, but he's not in my Top3 scumreads.

No, I am not saying that. My thoughts about shos are that he never posts very much at the starts of games and prodges for a while but then later on gets into things, in the Odds you remember that most of day 1 he wasn't posting and was saying he'd write later, but then he did do a proper catchup later.

The reason I asked you about shos was because you wrote this:

In post 254, Aneninen wrote:
In post 241, Travelling Salesman wrote:I think that if me vs meeseeks were a TvT then there would be more opportunistic votes on him.
Why?
And another question: why not on you?
Also, there are others, eg. Shos who are involved in the story.

So I asked you okay why are you talking about shos, what are you saying about him, why did you bring him up. And now you ask am I say something about shos, but I Was asking what you were saying about shos, not saying something myself about him.

In post 322, Aneninen wrote: At that point there were only 2 votes on MeeSeeks, but there are others tiptoe-ing around that wagon. I'm scumreading Kuroi (who's on) but there could be someone else among those "tiptoe-ers". As for you, I've already explained. Your interaction with ChilledTea doesn't look town-vs-town, but I can't sort it out yet which one of you is/are scum. And you even qouted this part in your post...

Yes, I quoted that part in my post, because I wanted to know why you were saying that, what you thought about it, to share with your thoughts out loud about why it didn't look town-vs-town to you, because if you are going to get in between two people who are having a discussion then you need to take a more firm stance than "two people are talking and i don't know what their alignments are".

In post 322, Aneninen wrote:
Why do I think this was a preemptive excuse for a situation ChilledTea would flip town in?
You may be right about the "a newer player genuinely expects..." part, but I still think either you or him is scum. Even if I can't put my finger on it, why.
As for the "pissing contest", I don't think it's an alignment tell.

I would not do that as scum because people tend to scumread that kind of thing; people tend to townread me for taking firm stances. You were quick to say that my argument with tea was TvS and that you didn't know which one was the T. Well i know that I'm T so it is either TvT or TvS and I want you to take a stance and say why you think it is TvS and not a TvT; what aspects common to TvTs are lacking from my exchange with chilledtea, what do you think of how other people were approaching us or not approaching us. I need more from you than "well two people are talking and maybe one of them is scum but idk."

In post 323, Aneninen wrote:
In post 314, KuroiXHF wrote:I don't know how I feel about this reaction. Yeah, you're obviously the one who started the Meeseeks lynch and if you look at the vote count, I'm right by your side, but I take issue with the "Are you calling me scum?" It seems like a challenge and given your reputation here, it sounds like you're expecting people to shy away.
I had the same feeling.

oh for fuck's sake. You should know me better than that. It's one thing when the newbs do it but you too?

In post 323, Aneninen wrote:
In post 314, KuroiXHF wrote:
Travelling Salesman wrote:I agree with Anen on this; this kind of feels like you know Meeseeks is scum and are threatening to push me for bussing him on day 2. Also you seem to be the only person in this game who likes my hydra partner's posting. Though I think Anen was calling Meeseeks town for this post? Either way it bothers me.
I don't really have anything to say to this, at least about Meeseeks. As far as bussing goes, I'm voting WITH you. If I'm scum and Meeseeks is scum, wouldn't that mean that I would also be bussing him? Why would you need two scum bussing a third? That doesn't make any sense to me.
Uhhhhhhhhh what sort of answer was THAT?!

A shit answer, since he was the one who suggested that I was bussing Meeseeks in the first place, not the other way around.

In post 324, Aneninen wrote:Also, that discussion between 317–320.
Frankly, can't we just lynch Kuroi?

As reluctant as I am to leave my Meeseeks tunnel, I wouldn't oppose this.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #340 (isolation #52) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:09 pm

In post 325, SirCakez wrote:Kuroi shall not be lynched today
/me slaps

Why. Make a towncase please because I'm not sure whether he's just pissing me off or if he's scum too.

In post 333, Javajoe24 wrote:I am not contributing to this game the way I would like. If I can't post a full post tomorrow I will Monday, as I am off that day. Really sorry guys, going through a rough divorce right now, court etc.

I'm sorry to hear this and hope you'll be okay.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #341 (isolation #53) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:27 pm

Stuff from Cakes I've been meaning to reply to:

In post 270, SirCakez wrote:I ended up deciding he was town from this. I never said I was scumreading him because I wasn't scumreading him (._. )

I think BNL misunderstood that post them.

In post 270, SirCakez wrote:I am scumreading Meeseeks. This is really awful reasoning for a scumread. Like my townread on you just sank like a rock, that's how fake I think this is.

The reason it was pinging bnl was that you weren't yet putting your vote where your mouth was. The reason it was pinging me was similar: you were talking to Meeseeks like he was a scumread but you weren't voting him and it reminded me of your posturing with beeboy in Borderlands, where you were calling beeboy scummy but never voting him and defending him from Rob13's attacks on one page and then saying he's a good lynch on the very next page and always distancing never lynching. But this is pretty obviously preflip associatives so if I'm wrong about Meeseeks then never mind.

In post 270, SirCakez wrote:I don't have any really strong scumreads at this point. Fire Assassin has kind of drifted back to nullscum.

Fire needs to be doing more than he is, yeah.

In post 271, SirCakez wrote:My Kuroi nulltown read comes from his widespread engagement and what looks like consistent efforts to sort people. For example, he dropped a full readslist in 261 which I don't think anyone else has. 225 looks like an active town thought process, from one post he sorted Anen up to nullscum, these are the kind of posts I see town making. In 219 he directly pushed on Traveling Salesman, who is probably one of the most townread players in the game right now. Another scenario that I don't see scum engaging into. The reason he's only nulltown is due to his lower activity and a good chunk of his posts consist of little fluffs.

Did you like Kuroi's readslist in 261, or did you just like that he produced one? Also I realise I just asked you for a towncase on him; I'd forgotten about this post when I did that. If you have more to say about Kuroi, then I'd like to hear it. If not, that's okay too.

In post 316, SirCakez wrote:Yes you're nullscum. There's only 13 pages, I don't have any uber super xD strong scumreads

I don't really mind this.

In post 316, SirCakez wrote:I have some pretty solid reads so I haven't "achieved nothing".

I'm not sure who your top 3 scumreads are from your ISO. help?

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #342 (isolation #54) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:32 pm

I looked through GIF's ISO because I couldn't remember if I was townreading him or not. I think I was okay with his catchup at the time but I don't really have a read there and have decided to sheep Cabd on him for now.

GIF I don't really understand your Cakes, Kuroi, Fire reads. I kind of understand Anen but not really. If cases aren't your thing then you don't have to do a case but a sentence here or there would make you less opaque.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #343 (isolation #55) » Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:38 pm

town enough: Cabd, Java,
maybe town after all?: tea
nothing he's said bothers me but I don't really have a read: GIF, Magna, Sheldon,
I thought I was townreading him but I don't want to underestimate him: Aneninen
reply hazy try again: Cakes
do something: Fire, shos
are you scum or just unfun: Kuroi
I wish you were town

: Meeseeks

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #356 (isolation #56) » Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:20 pm

I kind of like slow games; less shit to wade through, easier to keep the train of thought, only a few pages to reread. Games with lots of spamming so much gets lost in the noise. Spammy games are fun when you've got lots of time and you're in the spammy group but not so much you don't have lots of time or aren't in the spammy group. I like this nice quiet game.

Cakes, I agree that Java isn't doing very much, but some people have made meta arguments that he's frequently like this, he's cited RL issues as an explanation for his inactivity, and his claim of double voter makes him likelier town than not.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #371 (isolation #57) » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:49 am

Hi, sorry I said I would be here during my V/LA, but apparently I was too busy for this game so I ended up not posting here.

Reading is hard and I don't get much from it, so instead I'll ask questions.

In post 369, Cabd wrote:Catchup begins now with me asking why my question for sheldon seemingly got ignored?

Or maybe I missed the response?

Sheldon without revealing who you are have you played with me before?

I get a certain vibe but I don't wanna out who I think you are etc etc.

Why do you care so much about this? Is it alignment indicative?

-bnl

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #372 (isolation #58) » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:57 am

In post 363, MagnaofIllusion wrote:
In post 261, KuroiXHF wrote:Lean Town: Cabd

Notes:
- GuyInFreezer rings me as scummy as saying he's going to catch up on Sunday and Wednesday, he's not here. He'll probably go back to null if he doesn't respond to the prod.
Kuroi please reconcile your Cadb Townlean with your scummy read on Gif as they’ve both been guilty of the exact same thing.

This seems to be a scumpoint for Kuroi, but you ended up townreading him. Explain?

-bnl

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #428 (isolation #59) » Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:56 am

Nothing to do with this (or any other) game, but I'm going to be in a bad mood for the rest of the month. i will try not to take it out on this game but consider me v/la sort of except that we don't need exemption from prods.

I know there's some stuff I need to reply to and I will at some point before the deadline but not today.

Kuroi is town as fuck. don't want to lynch shos today. If I had to pick a scumteam right now i'd say [meeseeks, fire, javajoe]. Shos doesn't seem to have a vote and my hydra partner has a theory that java might've stolen it from him in pregame, because shos doesn't seem to know that he doesn't have a vote: he keeps trying to vote meeseeks and he keeps not having a vote in the votecounts. Glad to see my alt guess of Sheldon was correct. I agree with Magna's reasoning that anen could be scum if meeseeks isn't.

I think it's weird that people are suggesting that the Meeseeks wagon is going so slowly because it's on

town

. That's not how wagons work.

--P

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #438 (isolation #60) » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:25 am

oh well about the java theory. :/ Looks like shos unvoted in 296. sorry i didn't look myself, i trusted bnl's theory.

I think he's town if double voter and scum if vote stealer. will note that i was on a scumteam with a vote stealer once and i had them use it on me night 1 and a townie night 2 (they weren't allowed to use it past night 2) and i rode the towncred from that for the rest of the game.

so yeah nevermind, no evidence that a vote has been stolen, my bad.

i'm not going to give hints to Sheldon's identity; either you saw the correct word and knew who he was, or you didn't. (i knew it before i saw the thing though.)

Oh Anen I meant to say that when I saw your reads list I thought that Mario wasn't in the game

pedit @meeseeks: 368, which i will respond to when i cna summon the willpower, was very town. it was wrong about a lot of things but it was also extremely town. I am now going to write him off as town and stop reading his posts for a while like i did in n1671 and you can all be paranoid that i'm doing that to recreate my town meta instead of it just being that i don't feel like dismantling his paranoia right now.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #442 (isolation #61) » Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:18 am

no look at the vote counts, shos, you do have a vote, we just confused.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #444 (isolation #62) » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:33 am

or I read the 4 pages between my one post and the other.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #447 (isolation #63) » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:48 am

In post 438, Travelling Salesman wrote:368, which i will respond to when i cna summon the willpower, was very town. it was wrong about a lot of things but it was also extremely town. I am now going to write him off as town and stop reading his posts for a while like i did in n1671 and you can all be paranoid that i'm doing that to recreate my town meta instead of it just being that i don't feel like dismantling his paranoia right now.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #460 (isolation #64) » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:05 am

I am happy with my vote.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #464 (isolation #65) » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:07 am

He's not a town investigative.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #466 (isolation #66) » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:08 am

This isn't confbias anymore.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #469 (isolation #67) » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:09 am

i'll look but...

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #471 (isolation #68) » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:12 am

flavour cop, delayed watcher... he didn't update the op but massive was like a watcher that was fixed on a single target or something and i dont remember what hiplop was. it sucked replacing in as scum to that setup with the ninja and backup ninja dead.

i'm uncomfortable that you seemed to draw the correct conclusion as to why i was voting you but pressed me to explain anyway.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #472 (isolation #69) » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:13 am

In post 467, Mr Meeseeks wrote:
In post 464, Travelling Salesman wrote:He's not a town investigative.
dont even act like multiple different investigative roles in an antihero UPick is out of the question

like why the fuck would you say this if you're town.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #475 (isolation #70) » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:17 am

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #477 (isolation #71) » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:22 am

yeah, same.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #493 (isolation #72) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:17 am

ugh, fine.

VOTE: Fire Assassin

he's scum, too.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #495 (isolation #73) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:25 am

partly a meta read. he's a goofball as town too, but when he's town, he's a goofball who is bouncing around the thread trying to find scum, and in this game he's not.

i'll make a more elaborate case later if neccessary. Would still happily lynch meeseeks but i can tell that's not going to happen today. would compromise onto anen more happily that i'd compromise onto cakes or tea. i think everyone else is off the table for me today but how hard i'd fight to derail a wagon on someone else would depend strongly on how much i like them (for town, as a person, either or.)

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #503 (isolation #74) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:18 am

I think that an investigative PR in an all town neighbourhood is broken because if they recognise each other as town they can hide who has the result on a player. I may have recently learnt this the hard way. I thought Follower wasn't that strong a role but it turned out to be.

I still strongly believe that Meeseeks is scum but I get why town would be hesitant to lynch him toDay.

pedit: The game did not go to 3p LYLO. I was alive in that game for only a few hours. I replaced in during the night phase, misunderstood the role interactions, went to sleep, woke up at L-1, spent two hours townposting to try to talk them down from lynching me even though there was 7 players alive and 5 of them were conftown, before the player i was in a 1v1 with could wake up and hammer me but he woke up and the game over. So my memories of that game were that town had a lot of PRs and I was screwed but i wasn't there long enough for more detailed memories.

The unsigned posts are all me, Plotinus.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #504 (isolation #75) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:19 am

The posts on page 99, which you linked to, are my only posts in the game thread.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #506 (isolation #76) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:24 am

What you probably saw were that 3 players were voting me and nobody else was listed in the votecount. I can see how you'd think that if you were skimming.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #507 (isolation #77) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:24 am

(so it might've been 5p actually and i'm misremembering that bit.)

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #526 (isolation #78) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:48 am

From an "i have a lot of experience with neighbour dynamics as a mod" standpoint, town investigative in an all town neighbourhood is broken.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #537 (isolation #79) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:07 am

i've seen shos play day 1 like this before but I think he started participating eventually to a greater extent than he's doing now. Looking back over his ISO in the odds he was doing shit earlier than I remembered, yeah. i don't mind lynching him at this point, he's had enough time.

I don't think Meeseeks is lying about his claim, I just think he's scum.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #544 (isolation #80) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:11 am

also about fire assassin people are like "he's not doing anything so he's null"

no. wrong.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #545 (isolation #81) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:11 am

also instead of running around like chickens with our heads cut off, since Java requested replacement there may be a deadline extension so while we should make haste we don't neccessarily need to do it frantically.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #573 (isolation #82) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:08 am

[shos/meeseeks/fire]

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #600 (isolation #83) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:08 am

VOTE: shos L-3

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #656 (isolation #84) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:50 am

we lynched your buddy, dw

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #659 (isolation #85) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:55 am

because people got cold feet on meeseeks because of his claim and nobody would bite on Fire (to be fair i was going to write a case on Fire but today sucked more than i expected it to but I thought I might write one tomorrow.)

and also he wasn't contributing enough or reading the game and was mostly just complaining.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #662 (isolation #86) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:58 am

yeah, people were afraid of the deadline even though it's over a day away.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #665 (isolation #87) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:01 am

oh congratulations!

Cakes would make a good Clotilde, I agree.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #670 (isolation #88) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:09 am

Today was the 168th day of the year. that's how many hours there are in a week. 2³*3*7. It's also the square root of 28224. Now (for Anen and I anyway and BNL too) it's the 169th day of the year. Friday the 13²!

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #673 (isolation #89) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:16 am

1001*987=987987

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #688 (isolation #90) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:54 am

i'm town three

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #691 (isolation #91) » Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:01 pm

the last vc was about 6 pages ago; dunno how obvious it was.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #710 (isolation #92) » Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:58 pm

Probably Magna wasn't told any more than we are about what his role did. GIF is probably the same alignment as shos was or whatever.

I still want to lynch Meeseeks and Fire Assassin. Maybe Anen too.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #711 (isolation #93) » Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:58 pm

VOTE: Meeseeks

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #712 (isolation #94) » Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:10 pm

In post 29, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Science Fact of the Day! Science Fact of the Day! Everyone Loves the Science Fact of the Day! Today's Important Integer (tm) is 6! Make a note of it!

VOTE: Fire

Hiding behind a facade and role-playing unscientific fantasies are hardly the activities I would expect of the orderly minded. Appears much more emblematic of the chaos that entropy brings.

So at the start of day 1, he got the number 6.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #713 (isolation #95) » Sun Jun 19, 2016 6:10 pm

Cakes, can you tell me roughly the number of posts you each have in your neighbourhood, and about neighbourhood activity levels in general?

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #742 (isolation #96) » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:36 am

Cakes, can you go into more details about the nature of the lacklustre neighbourhood posting?

Meeseeks, so it's like a motion detector with a ripple effect kind of? more useful early game than late game when most people will test positive? how much of this role did you claim in the neighbourhood? I agree that kuroi is probably scumreading you for the wrong reasons but that's what mafia's like.

Sorry for posting maths after the fake hammer the other day; i was drunk.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #746 (isolation #97) » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:49 am

Are these numbers incorrect?

In post 720, Javajoe24 wrote:
In post 713, Travelling Salesman wrote:Cakes, can you tell me roughly the number of posts you each have in your neighbourhood, and about neighbourhood activity levels in general?
Sircakez 15 posts
Meseeks 12 posts
Javajoe 12 posts
Antihero 1 post
Being elements, priceless

It sounds like he's had more posts than that in the neighbourhood; were the others "i'll get to this later" kind of posts?

I dreamed about your neighbourhood last night except it was MarioManiac4 instead of JavaJoe in the hood with you and you and Cakes each had like 600 posts *each* in the neighbourhood, which would've been ridiculous in a game of this size but dreams are like that. You had 623 specifically and Cakes had 635 and MarioManiac4 was barely posting and if that had been true then I would've thought Mario was the scum in your hood (except for the part where now that we're awake we know that Mario isn't in this game) because I think lurking in hoods is an overarching scumtell but that's why I'm so interested in this all of a sudden.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #749 (isolation #98) » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:52 am

I agree with you, Sheldon, I think Magna is probably town.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #751 (isolation #99) » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:53 am

shhhh don't tell him

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #766 (isolation #100) » Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:18 am

In post 720, Javajoe24 wrote:
In post 713, Travelling Salesman wrote:Cakes, can you tell me roughly the number of posts you each have in your neighbourhood, and about neighbourhood activity levels in general?
Sircakez 15 posts
Meseeks 12 posts
Javajoe 12 posts
Antihero 1 post
Being elements, priceless

Java, it sounds like your relative activity in the neighbourhood is much higher than your relative activity in the main thread. May I know why this is so?

-bnl

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #795 (isolation #101) » Tue Jun 21, 2016 7:01 am

@Sheldon I like your posting schtick, though.

I'm not really here today; been washing my clothes by hand, including sheets, because my washing machine broke today in the middle of a load and I'm really tired, too tired to do the rereading that I want to do to get my footing, but I think I'm okay with you and your reads? With Meeseeks, I've seen him do elaborate claims as scum before and I'm not sure his, shos, and my roles all fit together as town in the same setup unless the census taker was counting investigatives. And I've seen him get pissy as both alignments about being scumread but you might be right. I can't figure out if I've been left alive because I'm wrong about him or because my kill would too obviously point to him x.x I could probably sheep you on tea I just want to reread stuff when I'm not exhausted. Do you have an opinion about Fire Assassin?

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #802 (isolation #102) » Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:58 am

In post 747, SheldonCooper wrote:I find yesterday most unfortunate. Note that I am not apologizing for the lynch nor my role I am merely stating that it is unfortunate that it happened. Not that it is my fault, which it isn't.

Why do you say this?

-bnl

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #803 (isolation #103) » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:04 am

In post 769, Cabd wrote:I got some weird flavor that suggests people shouldn't be targeting me.

So yeah, there's that.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Fire

Was this a response to someone? And I'm pretty sure you've already said that in 111.

This makes me think you're town, however.

-bnl

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #808 (isolation #104) » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:50 am

":earlier 10h" from vim would've been funnier (return to the buffer state of 10 hours ago)

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #824 (isolation #105) » Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:20 am

VOTE: chilledtea

I'm still not really here but maybe tomorrow it won't be too hot think.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #827 (isolation #106) » Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:01 am

@Sheldon:

probably not GIF, he's the same as shos. alignment, i'm assuming.

dunno how much room we should be giving java for his real life issues.

Are you townreading Fire?

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #832 (isolation #107) » Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:22 am

I counterclaimed Meeseeks yesterDay, but nobody wanted to lynch him and scum chose not to nightkill in the two of us either. Shos was also an investigative, he was a non consecutive follower. If Magna's "6" wasn't the number of investigatives in the setup, then it doesn't make sense for us all to be town.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #855 (isolation #108) » Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:02 pm

Okay it's 6:30 am and I'm going to try to reread this game before it gets too hot to think again. Wish me luck!

In post 74, Javajoe24 wrote:You caught me! Dang your good....

This pinged me a bit so I went to see how he responds to early game pressure as scum. In Mini 1790 Assassin's Creed, he wasn't pressured at all until day 2, and he responded calmly saying that he didn't understand the wagon on him.

He was lynched on day 1 in micro 607: walking dead episode 4 but he didn't really respond to the pressure on him as far as I could see.

Those are his only two scum games, but so far it seems he doesn't use humour to deflect much as scum.

@Sheldon:

how much of your early game Magna thing was reaching to get the game started and how much was serious?

Fire Assassin is still scum on pages 1-6. It doesn't read like he believes any of the things he's saying.

page 10: ugh i have too many scumreads.

I'm not getting as much out of this as I'd like to; it's mostly reaffirming the reads that I already have. I'm going to try ISOing.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #857 (isolation #109) » Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:59 pm

Spoiler: anen iso map

I still don't like 303. I feel like he's been doing a lot of sniping from the sidelines this game. He's doing a lot of signal boosting of other people's scumreads, in a way that widens the pool of viable lynches, for example in 323 with Kuroi, his top scumread who he's voting, he sidles up to kuroi's paranoia on my slot and agrees with it, but also continues pushing Kuroi as scum. He egged on me vs chilledtea, he egged on kuroi vs me, he supported me vs meeseeks for a little while but backed down on that really quickly and won't explain why, which is something I saw him doing in Micro 600 as scum, saying he had reasons that he couldn't talk about when he didn't want to answer something. In 395 he looks upset that me vs chilledtea seems to be drawing to a close. In 398 he explains that he thought Meeseeks was a PR and that's what the big secret was...of course he's a PR; everyone is

, he just happens to be a scum PR. And 402 doesn't feel natural at all, he wants to keep townreading Meeseeks and it's explained to him that his current reason is a bad one, so he makes up a new one.

I am worried about 322 too because when he misunderstand what I'm asking him about shos, who he's been townreading up until now, suddenly "well he's not in my top 3 scumreads" is all he can do for his townread. I don't like the way he notices that a bunch of people are tiptoeing around the Meeseeks wagon, which is a common sign that the wagon is on scum, and he instead townreads Meeseeks.

I have no idea why he has Cabd as "could be town" in 397. Yes, I realise he writes a sentence explaining it and yes I've been "town for now" reading cabd (which is a variant of null), but he's mentioned Cabd 4 times before this point and this is the first hint that he's not scumread Cabd.

Also, and I realise that I'm guilty of this too, and I realise that my excuse for it the same as Anen's since we were both drunk, but in 679 when Cabd made the point that shos had sort of disappeared after the fake hammer, neither of us, even though it was after midnight in our time zone, remembered to point out that it was after 1am in shos' time zone and he'd probably just fallen asleep. shos' timezone is right next to ours so one of us should've noticed but we didn't :/

UNVOTE: chilledtea. I have bad feelings about this right now. I need to think some more. Need breakfast first though.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #858 (isolation #110) » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:36 pm

Cabd, if they still exist, can you talk about your townreads on Java and Pidgeon some? Is Java based primarily on his claim or is there more to it? Who do you want to lynch toDay?

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #859 (isolation #111) » Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:37 pm

(ignore that second question, the answer's obvious.)

Travelling Salesman · Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:04 pm

Spoiler: chilledtea map

Some of chilledtea's questions to Cakes seem like scumhunting to me. 227 would ping me if I thought Kuroi were scum but I don't and I don't see why scumChilledtea would be so interested in Cakes' townread on Kuroi right now. I don't like posts like 286 because the town motivation for Cakes' post there (clearing up a misunderstanding, trying to figure out what Kuroi was saying) is obvious. Reading 289 where he's wondering how cakes could have a nulltownread on Kuroi based on what Kuroi had posted to that time, I looked at their combined ISO and they had interacted enough by then I think and Kuroi had 12 posts already, but it is interesting that Cakes cites the fluff posting as being one of the reasons he didn't have Kuroi as a stronger town; I think if fluff posting bothers Cakes that much then his Kuroi read was a little bit higher than expected at that time. Kuroi's town though so it doesn't matter.

291 is the kind of post I want to scumread because there isn't anything scummy about asking for clarification on something you didn't understand and I don't know what the scum motivation for pretending not to understand Kuroi's post would be, and I don't think it's true that scum are more likely to ask silly questions than town, but this is the sort of stance I saw chilledtea take in a lot of his town ISOs that I read earlier so I think it's something he genuinely believes.

I like the way tea responds to Anen trying to egg us on in 339. And I think the second paragraph of 401 makes sense from a townTea standpoint and doesn't make tons of sense of from a scumTea standpoint. The first paragraph is more of the mafia theory stuff i've seen him post as town elsewhere even though I disagree with it.

I don't think he would post 410 if he were scum with Anen.

If tea is still townreading Anen (418) I would like to know why.

While I agree that Magna's a strange kill, I'd be curious to hear why chilledtea thinks so (722). Ah, it's explained in 814. You say that you were scumreading him. Why did you not push him on day 1? The only interaction with him that looks even a little bit like a push is In 409. Why weren't you trying to lynch him if you thought he was scum?

About your reads list in 773, you say "Cakez play was townie especially around his claim." Whose claim do you mean? I don't believe Cakes has claimed. I would also like to know why Cakes' play is townie, but he's in the potential scumteam group, why I'm town but also in the potential scumteam group, why GIF is null, but also in the scumteam group (beyond his lurking), why Kuroi is town when you were pushing him all day one, why you voted Cabd at the start of the day if he's town, and what's up with your Anen read.

You explain some of this in 787 but your reads also seem to be shifting around within that single post in a way that I don't understand.

When you say "interesting", for example in 820 but also in 202, do you mean scummy or something else? I also want to know what you mean when you say "strange", for example in 154, 291, 404, 829, 831. Does strange mean scummy or something else and if so what?

Regarding 836, why do you think it's important to point out scummy things that your townreads do?

tl;dr: I have a difficult time understanding where chilledtea is coming from in a lot of his posts but i don't think that makes him more likely to be scum than not. I'd like to hear some more from him. Some of his posts bother me and I'd like to get some clarification on them. I want to come back to this read after I finish ISOing some other people.

Travelling Salesman · Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:17 am

Spoiler: fire assassin iso map

I don't think he's bussing tea in 197.

I hate this post.

851 is also really terrible. Sheldon floats the idea of a GiF/ChilledTea/Java scumteam. Fire has previously had all of these players as either town or null, but he says "I could see this easily". And then a little while later he remembers that he was scumreading Cakes so he says 854.

There is nothing town about this ISO at all.

Travelling Salesman · Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:43 am

Spoiler: Javajoe iso map

It's mildly interesting that the people he's interacted with the most are dead. Java, when you came back into the game towards the end of day 1, you developed a strong scumread on shos in 696 but you didn't explain it very thoroughly. Can you talk some about why you were so sure that shos was scum?

Can you also talk some about your scumread on SirCakes? You explain it a little bit in 776, but I'd like to hear more about your read and where it's coming from. Also please talk about your townread on Meeseeks.

The first mention of chilledtea in your ISO is 838, where you put him at L-1. Can you talk about your scumread on chilledtea?

I can see why Seldon thought he could be scum with Tea, but I think Fire Assassin is a lot more likely to be scum than either of them, and while I don't see anything here that screams he's not scum together with Fire Assassin, there's nothing in this iso that makes me think they have to be aligned, and like with tea i can see some things in posts that indicate more that he's just having trouble keeping up with the game due to real life stuff than anything. I think there needs to be more to the case on him than inactivity.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #883 (isolation #115) » Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:14 am

Thanks for answering some of my questions.

I think most people tend to look for synonyms for scummy when writing because it makes the post more interesting than saying x is scummy y is scummy z is scummy, it is too much repetition which is bad writing, so people will use words like strange, scummy, bad, gross somewhat interchangably to make their posts more...interesting. Interesting is a pretty vague word though because it could mean you like the post (think its townie) or dislike it (think its scummy) and if its all by itself then it can be hard to tell what you mean by it.

It's okay that you are using these words to mean something else though. Are you using them to say that it's something you want to think more about?

You're right, Cakes did claim vengeful, I'd forgotten but I remember now. He's next on my list of people to ISO, I need to refresh my memory on why he claimed that when he did and what were the circumstances.

I like that vote.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #884 (isolation #116) » Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:21 am

In post 881, chilledtea wrote: I have explained why I voted cabd.

In that case, can you explain why changed your vote to Javajoe, considering that neither Cabd nor Java posted in between these two votes?

In post 722, chilledtea wrote:Well meseeks, we should all cherish what we have got, even if it is a weak investigative role.

Magna was a strange kill.

VOTE : Cabd

In post 768, chilledtea wrote:
VOTE : Javajoe

-bnl (Everything else was by Plotinus)

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #908 (isolation #117) » Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:42 pm

In post 889, Javajoe24 wrote:Oh, and shos, I have forgotten my exact reason for scum reading him so hard, but I do remember it was one specific post that caught my eye of his while I was doing my catch up but I cannot remember which one exactly right now. I will try to find it later if you are still interested

If it's not too much trouble; try skimming his ISO to see if it jumps out at you again.

In post 895, SheldonCooper wrote:Okay, but this isn't how Adenine plays scum.
There's like a palpable manipulation going on with him when he's scum, he twists everything and speaks in a really posturey, for-show way.
There's none of that here. He's not super in the fray but he often isn't as town and he's been pretty reasonable.

I can vote Fire Assassin or Java or GiF if you prefer any of the above wagons.

I would still like to see how Anen replies to my post, and there's two or three more slots I want to make ISO maps of to solidify my read on them; it's possible at this point that Anen won't be in the bottom three and there are a few things about his ISO that look town to me, but it'll depend on how he responds. I've known who you were since around page 10 and if you're town then I respect your reads and I appreciate you explaining even this much of how you read him because I know explanations aren't really your thing, but I need to get there myself, too. I do want to go back to the Odds and look at the case I had against scumAnen there before I let him slip through my fingers. I think I can see what you mean, I just need a bit more time with him.

Right now, outside of Meeseeks (who is one of the slots i'm going to make an iso map of because that can help me stop confbiasing if i am, but i really don't think I am.), Fire Assassin is probably my strongest scumread. I know I didn't write a lot of words about him, which people seem to be taking to mean I don't have much to say rather than it just being obvious from all of his posts that this isn't townFire, and I'm trying to cut back on stating the obvious, and no, the problem isn't just his lack of engagement.

It's taking a while to finish my ISOing thing because we're having a heat wave and my brain stops working once it gets above 30. It's 7:30am and it's already 27

In post 896, SheldonCooper wrote:I believe that there is a fairly reasonable possibility that Fire Assassin and ChilledTea are in fact partners in crime together.

I am far from convinced by how either of them have interacted with each other and I find their crossvoting odd to say the least. I think it's quite possible that they're trying to distance here since both are under pressure?

Can you point to some other things that support this too?

In post 902, Fire Assassin wrote:What exactly does Salesman has a point on? The points made are basically that my reads have changed and I don't hold the same thoughts from post to post. If you are who I think you are, cause you are in no way a new player, you should not be agreeing with Salesmans points here.

The only reasons I can see for people scumreading me is that my activity/effort isn't up to par, which isn't a reason to scumread me.

Sheldon, GiF, chilledtea, Javajoe, Aneninen, Me, my hydra partner, Meeseeks, and Cabd are also to varying degrees posting less often than would be optimal. (I realise Meeseeks is leading in post count, but he does a lot of posts and then nothing for a while and then lots of posts instead of maintaining a steady flow of posts; this isn't alignment indicative for him, but as with everybody else, it would be better for the game state if all of us were engaging a bit more than we are on a more consistent, regular basis.) This isn't a great reason to scumread anyone on this list, at least not without providing an explanation for why only that one person is scum and the other 6-8 should be given a pass.

My issue with you is what you're doing/not doing when you are here.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #910 (isolation #118) » Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:30 pm

That makes sense, thank you.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #911 (isolation #119) » Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:54 pm

Spoiler: Cakes ISO map

Cakes is someone I really struggle to read. In Musical I wanted to townread him for strategic reasons and tried to write a towncase for him and instead wrote a 15 page essay on how I was struggling to find anything town about him, and I knew he was town-or-SK there so he should've been getting a towniness boost in my perception just from knowing that he wasn't in my scum PT. I thought that the way he played Musical (town) was very similar to the way he played Borderlands (scum, multiball), which shows me that whatever I'm looking at with him, it's not the right thing.

That said, I like his voting history in this game; in the games of his that I've read he likes distancing from his buddies but doesn't like to actually bus them and his early votes were on my scumreads.

Cakes, in 481, are you saying that Fire sheeping Meeseeks made you think they were scum together? I know you've changed your mind since then but can you talk some more about that theory?

I want to townread 549.

In post 848, SirCakez wrote:
In post 813, GuyInFreezer wrote:Oh also I forgot to ask Sir if the joke was funny.
oh lol that's where that was from
yeah it was

Help I need jokeexplainbot

okay, you know what, Cakes is the townest of the neighbours. If he weren't in a neighbourhood maybe I'd be having more trouble but as it is I'm fine with pretty much all of this.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #912 (isolation #120) » Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:55 pm

Which reminds me. Java, can you write some words about your cakes scumread please.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #913 (isolation #121) » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:00 pm

It's 10am and 31 degrees so I'm done thinking deep thoughts for the day.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #915 (isolation #122) » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:34 pm

In light of that I think it's probably true that Magna the Census taker counted the number of investigatives in the setup, if there are four already. I do not know whether he counted town investigatives or total investigatives. I'd guess total I think but this isn't my area of strength.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #917 (isolation #123) » Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:57 pm

In post 916, Aneninen wrote:
TravellingSalesman, 857 – is there anything I should answer there?

I'd like you to talk some more about your townread on Cabd (I'm townreading him too it's just that he hasn't been doing very much), and also why you were so ready to townread Meeseeks for claiming an investigative role if you are also an investigative role; for me his claim strengthened my scumread on him at the time because of my own role, and you saw us counterclaiming each other and knew yourself to be an investigative and didn't think it was more likely that one of us was scum? And now there are four of us.

I'm coming around to you being town, though, so you don't need to write too many words.

Travelling Salesman · Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:27 pm

Yeah, I was also giving him a pass for softing PGO. I think Cabd might do that anyway but it was enough for me to look elsewhere for day 1. I wish he were doing more than he is but I have other reads I care more about.

Ok, i've gone back through my case against Anen in the Odds and I think Sheldon is right about him here.

Travelling Salesman · Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:28 pm

I'm not voting you. I'm not currently voting anybody.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #933 (isolation #126) » Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:52 am

A little but I've been townreading him pretty hard.

We're not lynching Anen though.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #937 (isolation #127) » Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:14 am

The only wagons I'm willing to support right now are Fire Assassin and Meeseeks. When it's not 35ºC, I'm gonna ISO a couple more people and then I'll be ready to vote. We have some more time this day phase and I'm not done with day 2 just yet. I've recently come around to the idea that Anen is town.

Of the current wagons, the only ones I feel like actively resisting are Anen and Kuroi.

By process of elimination this means that I'm ambivalent about the tea and javajoe wagons.

I went back and looked through the Odds and what points I made against scumAnen in that game, and I realised he wasn't doing the things that were bothering me in that game and some of the things that I said were missing in that game are present here. For example, in the Odds and in Micro 600 I felt like Anen was treating me carefully because he knows that I can throw my weight around if I want to, and I'd expect that to be even more pronounced after Micro 600, but instead it doesn't feel like he's trying to get on my good side or trying to make friends with me. He's not treating me delicately. He's treating me the way you're treating me, Kuroi.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #939 (isolation #128) » Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:41 am

I also want to hear from the replacement if he's being replaced, and he's one of the people I want to make an ISO map of in case my read has gone stale.

That's another reason not to rush too much, gives time for him to produce more content or be replaced. I'm not saying we need to wait the full 7 or 8 days -- I'd like to start looking at lynching somebody no later than 4 days before the deadline -- but I could use another couple days.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #941 (isolation #129) » Sun Jun 26, 2016 5:26 am

I agree with that.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #959 (isolation #130) » Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:10 pm

Hi Ranger!

I am so, so sorry that you replaced into a probscum slot.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #968 (isolation #131) » Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:52 pm

Your predecessor wasn't RC.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #972 (isolation #132) » Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:57 pm

@Java: Yeah, that's why she's at L-6.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #974 (isolation #133) » Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:02 pm

Then why am I having so much trouble lynching her slot? You and Cakes are both calling her town because you're scumreading each other, Sheldon was calling her town but he might be coming around. Anen thinks she's town. Kuroi's willing to compromise onto her but she's not his preferred lynch. Fire Assassin was townreading her. Off the top of my head. I think everyone else has mostly been ignoring my scumread on that slot?

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #981 (isolation #134) » Sun Jun 26, 2016 7:59 pm

Ranger, please read at least until the end of day 1 before giving up, you're about halfway there and it gets less wally and faster to read during the deadline scramble.

Travelling Salesman · Post Post #996 (isolation #135) » Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:31 pm

Your reads haven't changed since page 13? Nobody's behaviour around the day 1 lynch changed your mind about anything?

Talk to me some about your Javajoe and chilledtea townreads; are they town independently or because they don't make sense as scum together with the bottom of your readslist? Also please talk some words about Fire Assassin and any of your other scumreads that you care to elaborate further on.

Travelling Salesman · Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:00 pm

VOTE: Ranger

Travelling Salesman · Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:35 pm

No, I'm an investigative with an inno on GIF as should be really obvious from my day 2 posting about GIF.

And it's not OMGUS. I had a meta scum read on Meeseeks with a very large sample size that suggested he was very likely to be scum, but he's a friend of mine and I would be really sad if I were wrong about him and after he claimed investigative. Like, the rest of you are comfortable using meta like "oh i played with this guy once and he feels kinda different" where I'm talking about over forty games. Town was reluctant to lynch in the investigative claims on day 1. I've been spending the day trying to make sure I had the scumteam nailed down so that when I die tonight I'll have left reads that people can trust.

And then he claims investigative and I'm also an investigative so that's suspicious. And then shos gets lynched and also flips investigative. You don't have to be a genius to figure out that this is fishy. And then Aneninen also claims investigative and that's 4 of us, which makes me think that Magna's role says there's 6 investigatives total in this setup and I really doubt that all 6 of us are town. It doesn't make sense.

But everybody was saying "you're wrong about this" and when everybody is saying that, literally everybody, then I'm not so arrogant as to not take that into consideration, so I've been putting some work into make sure... but I'm right.

And then Ranger replaces in, another player that I've spent a lot of time thinking about and reading her games and thinking about how she plays as town and how she plays as scum, and she hasn't done the thing she does in most of her town games and she's done a few things she's more likely to do as scum.

So I have a separate scumread on Ranger independent of my read on her predecessor, which confirms to me that I was right about Meeseeks. Her catchup wasn't town. Her reads are upside down. It's not just that she's scumreading me -- though she's played with me enough that while I'd expect her to be paranoid of me (especially in light of Musical) I do feel that I'm really obviously town here, I don't expect her to be this wrong -- but it's not just me she's wrong about; the rest of her reads don't make sense unless she's scum together with the people I'm scumreading.

Travelling Salesman · Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:10 pm

She's scumreading Cakes instead of you, and he's also a really easy mislynch when he's town, he gets mislynched a lot, but he's not her primary push right now. Ranger is specifically more likely to go after harder targets when she's scum, which is why she's focusing on me and Sheldon. I think it makes the game more entertaining for her, or she just wants to avoid the common "you're going after low hanging fruit" scumtell but she does it so consistently that it's a reverse scumtell for her. In Machina and Open 633, she went after Imperium, a hydra of two very strong players who were town in both of those games. In Open 633, she knew she was going down so she pushed on her buddies some too. Her push on my slot doesn't feel like a genuine push, it feels like her Imperium push in both of those games.

She also has trouble recapturing her town catchups when she's scum. The reads in her readslists don't fluctuate as often; as town she'll have more minor fluctuations from page to page.

I'm reluctant to give away what it is that she tends to do when she's town because I'd like to be able to reuse that bit of meta in future games but it's something about her tone and the manner in which she talks about the game and about herself. She has a strong preference for playing as town and some of that shines through even in games where she's a bit disengaged or struggling. It's also pretty clear that she's been following this game to some extent because she requested to replace in before Anti put a notice in the replacement requests thread and she said that she tried to snag GIF's slot earlier, so she would have known before replacing in whether this game looked like a fun game to play or a game that she wouldn't enjoy, so her tone here is more likely a result of her receiving a scum role PM. She does have town games where she's disengaged, for example the recent Fire and Ice, but it's different.

I also respect her considerably as a player and her reads are great when she's town but she's not town here.

Travelling Salesman · Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:27 pm

That's fine; take your time.

Travelling Salesman · Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:16 am

UNVOTE: Ranger

Not quite here right now because talking to girlfriend but one of the things I was looking for just happened.

Travelling Salesman · Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:54 am

Sorry guys, my engagement level is really low this game.

My current reads:

Cabd is town. I am not interested in lynching Aneninen either. There were some things I didn't like about Javajoe, but I've talked to Plot about it and I think he's town too.

I think Sheldon could be scum, but unsure, want to look into him.

-bnl

Travelling Salesman · Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:12 pm

In post 1007, Ranger wrote:
Traveling Salesman wrote:he's also a really easy mislynch when he's town
Citation needed.

Cakes' games

In post 0, Sméagol wrote:[3] SirCakez † - tempted - sacrifice - lynched day 2

In post 0, BipolarChemist wrote:
SirCakez (SE) -
Vanilla Townie
- Lynched Day 2

In post 0, Varsoon wrote:Cake Wings was lynched on Day 1. They were
She-Dandy
, aligned with
the Space Protagonists
.

In post 0, TheShadow wrote:SirCakez*, Vanilla Townie, was lynched Day 4

In post 0, wgeurts wrote:SirCakez, Charmander (Town 1-Shot Redirector) was lynched Day 2.

In post 1, Performer wrote:SirCakez - Vanilla Townie, lynched day 3 - refer to post 1243

In post 0, Davsto wrote:SirCakez,
Isaac Clarke
, lynched D2.

In post 0, 3dicerolling wrote:SirCakez was lynched day 5. He was Hyrule Loved Neighborizer

In post 0, Drixx wrote:7.) SirCakez, Vanilla Townie lynched on day three

I'm getting bored of this. tl;dr he gets lynched a lot when he was town.

Ranger wrote:I personally hold SirCakez to basically the same level I do beeboy, who is basically at the same level as RadiantCowbells. Maybe his skills aren't equal to Radiant's, but they don't have to be in order to still be grouped with him in the same top tier of players. He is a good scumhunter, with strong pushes and decent instincts whenever he is actively engaged in the game.

I never said that he was a bad player, or that he was bad at scumhunting or that he doesn't know how to lynch people or anything like that. I said that he is mislynched a lot. Avoiding being mislynched is one aspect of good town play but it's hardly the most important aspect. You're responding to a point I didn't make.

Ranger wrote:
Ranger is specifically more likely to go after harder targets when she's scum, which is why she's focusing on me and Sheldon. I think it makes the game more entertaining for her, or she just wants to avoid the common "you're going after low hanging fruit" scumtell but she does it so consistently that it's a reverse scumtell for her.
Very much not so on all fronts. I go for the players I feel I should go for. I also find great entertainment in
staying alive
, and picking a fight with high-caliber players is not something very productive to that. As scum I aim to engage the players I feel I need to engage. There's no thoughts of lynching them or not lynching them. It's purely whether engaging them feels like it should be done. This is to replicate my natural town play, which is...of course. I don't care whether a player is the hardest mislynch to ever obtain or such low-hanging fruit that everyone can see they're scum. Scum players are scum. Town players are town. I will pursue scum. I will defend town. It really is that simple. No thought. No strategy. Purely pursuing the right (or "right") thing. And the right thing this game feels like you.

When you're town, you push people you think are scum. When you're not town, you push people for strategic reasons. Like everybody else.

Ranger wrote:
Her push on my slot doesn't feel like a genuine push, it feels like her Imperium push in both of those games.
The difference is, when I engaged Imperium, there was no chance of me winning. My play was not meant to win the fight. It was meant to last as long as I could and then lose. Against you, I hold no intention of losing. I don't hold conviction, sure. I may back down. I may pursue other suspects. I refuse to accept defeat.

And there's no chance of you winning against me either so try again. I'm town and I've only been mislynched once before as town back when I was a newb and I am just as capable of throwing my weight around as they were. Your goal here is to convince me we're on the same side.

Ranger wrote:
The reads in her readslists don't fluctuate as often; as town she'll have more minor fluctuations from page to page.
This has never been true, or if it was, has not been true in a very long time, at least not as presented here. My reads change off of the state in the game. The game state did not significantly change. Little things happened. There were no solid interactions that threw anything into such doubt that my reads would change that significantly. No, say, scumteam pairings I saw 'hard-bussing'. No points that were so groundbreaking my read would reverse. Simply strengthenings, and weakenings, of already-existing statuses.

okay well now i've told you something you weren't aware of about your scumgame!

Ranger wrote:
She has a strong preference for playing as town and some of that shines through even in games where she's a bit disengaged or struggling.
And, bluntly...you'd have seen it here by now.

I haven't gotten this feeling, this absolute confidence, of a lockdown. I've got this general idea, which vaguely feels like it's right. So while that's certainly not as passionate as I could be...while that certainly is not as energetic, as strong, as I could be...the town still is there. It still shines through, because this has always been my town game. This has been the type of play which would make you go "Ranger is town, but I have to mislynch her" in a scum PT. This is the type of play where you would be sad to see me as someone who needed to go, but where I would need to go. Because if you were town, you would
know
. I still have enough belief, enough confidence, that I am willing, able, and currently engaging in, pushing my reads. You said it yourself: it's not something I can fake.

But this is no fake. It never could be. I am town. There are
so
many reasons I am town. And I fundamentally cannot see you not seeing it. Especially when you went out of your way to encourage me in 981. Especially when you went out of your way to ask me questions about my reads with energy, with drive behind your own posting. Especially when you did not try, not once, to unpack my reads. You didn't even try to figure out where I was coming from on them. You asked me to unpack them myself. And I simply do not see it as town.

Well, I haven't. I

did

reread the game along with you. I did try to see what you were seeing. Yes, I didn't ask you a bunch of busywork questions like I did in Musical, but I did think about it. When you replaced in, I thought "oh good, a second chance to read this slot" because I was pretty sure Meeseeks was scum but here's another player that I think I can read and I got an independent scumread on you too.

What you have to understand, if you're town, is that you're not starting from zero here. I have a lot of experience with Meeseeks and he's someone I've put a lot of thought into trying to read. He didn't do something that he usually does when he's town. Almost always does it. And never does it early as scum, ever. Sometimes does it a little later in the game as scum but he didn't do it ever here at any point. Across over 40 games. 88% chance that he's scum from that slot alone and considering he started out with a 25% chance of being scum, that's huge. And then he claimed investigative at a time when I could reasonably expect to be the only investigative in the setup because I don't expect setups to have tons of investigatives but have since figured out that's a thing in this game. And if I were scum I'd have no incentive to counterclaim him there, a 1v1 trade on day 1 would not be optimal for me no matter what. And if you're town I can't see you looking at that exchange and not seeing that I would never do that as scum, would never claim that early, in that manner, with emotion behind my posts that i'm not capable of faking. It's just one of many towntells that you've been ignoring from my slot from the very beginning of the game and it feels like you have an agenda with your readslists in this game, it feels like you're selling a narrative, and when you're not starting from zero, I'm not greeting you with open arms saying hi friend, I'm saying okay you've got two pages to convince me i'm wrong about you and then you didn't.

There's one thing in this post that gave me pause. I saw down below that you don't buy it but it's a tonal thing you're not aware of.

But, like, I don't want to make a towncase for myself because I think they're really tacky but the way I responded to burden of proficiency attacks is 100% town me and also I would think you would be more sympathetic to it given you're the recipient of them yourself and the way I haven't been strongarming a lynch on basically anybody but am dotting my i's and crossing my t's to make really damn sure about my reads, sure beyond sure even when i'm pretty reasonably confident is also 100% town and we have enough shared history that you know that about me, I mean yeah it's meta i'm aware of but I don't get townread for being overly cautious so as scum i'm more like "yeah uh i fixed that i'm just being confident because i'm right." I mean I can be confident as town too, in micro 600 my reads were great because i was hydraing with anti and we just strongarmed lynched onto scum on days 1 and 2 and then we won but I think if I were scum I would probably have lynched Kuroi by now instead of saying "ugh he's town so i have to put up with him."

I think one of the reasons I can't really fix this difference between my play is that it's fundamentally about how mafia works: do I really care to figure out whether somebody is town or not or do I just want to lynch them while pretending to care? When I'm town, I care more about figuring out whether the person i'm lynching is town or not. When I'm scum, I care more about setting up an optimal LYLO for myself.

Also you were citing posts which are ... more indicative of the way I've been feeling about mafia in general lately and calling them scum posts and I think as town you'd be more likely to call them null which they were.

The reason I asked you to unpack your reads yourself was because I was looking for who your buddy was.

Travelling Salesman · Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:21 pm

In post 1010, chilledtea wrote:Can the beta radiation PR help the scum in any way? The claim definitely feels genuine to me.

As far as I understand it's like a watered down motion detector goo. it can help scum narrow down who has night actions if it's a scum role. as town it can help PoE claimed night actions i guess. I really don't think we can break an antihero game by "is this a scum role or not" unless it's something like ninja which isn't going to be claimed anyway.

In post 1013, Fire Assassin wrote:
In post 1000, Travelling Salesman wrote:So I have a separate scumread on Ranger independent of my read on her predecessor, which confirms to me that I was right about Meeseeks. Her catchup wasn't town. Her reads are upside down. It's not just that she's scumreading me -- though she's played with me enough that while I'd expect her to be paranoid of me (especially in light of Musical) I do feel that I'm really obviously town here, I don't expect her to be this wrong -- but it's not just me she's wrong about; the rest of her reads don't make sense unless she's scum together with the people I'm scumreading.
So ranger is scum because her reads are terrible? Have you played with Ranger lately?
Seriously bad reads are the new meta for her.

And everyone feels like they are obvious town, and I don't like you saying stuff like that. It creates expectations for players to townread you. Would you switch your read on ranger if she town reads you?

I am the last person that should be here defending ranger.

This is not what i said and this is not a fair way to approach Ranger, please stop.

In post 1019, Fire Assassin wrote:Most of your guys reads are bad.

More scumposting from Fire.

In post 1023, Javajoe24 wrote:I have not seen your engagement level as low this game. In fact I thought you were one of the most engaged players in this game. Is this a hydra head talking specifically about themselves?

It's a single head, bnl saying that, he hasn't been posting much because he's been v/la a bunch and keeps losing momentum. I'm trying not to dominate the hydra but it keeps happening. i'm glad when he does post though.

In post 1026, GuyInFreezer wrote:Oh I was thinking that TS and Mee/Ranger had the exact same role.

No, not the exact same role. this setup probably has 6 investigatives, I think that's what Magna's result of 6 said. no way all 6 are town.

In post 1030, GuyInFreezer wrote:I mean this is a U-Pick so role madness is assumed but man 4 investigatives sounds too much to me.

Now someone is bound to go "GIF y r u wasting time setup speccing"
Role-Madness is the best game to setup spec.

I think a lot of the investigatives provide suggestive results rathern than definitive ones.

In post 1041, Ranger wrote:I am almost 100% positive that there was absolutely nothing in my 1007 that I have not done before at least once as scum. So, to be blunt: I don't buy it.

I'm glad you're not aware of that tell! Anyway, it was just something that gave me pause. I need to talk to you some more.

Anyway, I think I owe you some busywork for all of the busywork I made you do when I was scum!

Travelling Salesman · Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:24 pm

it's not valid if there's nothing exciting happening in the game. in this game there were exciting things that happened that did not affect your readslist.

Travelling Salesman · Mon Jun 27, 2016 10:29 pm

I can't do this now I'm sorry I need to make food and calm down.

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:38 pm

I am also requesting more time before the hammer.

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:54 pm

A town investigative who is in danger of being hammered would claim results so that they would not be lost.

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:54 pm

I'll bold the changes between reads lists.

In post 961, Ranger wrote:{GuyWhoseSlotIAlmostTook, Cabd}
{Fire Assassin, Traveling Salesman}
{JavaJoe}
{SirCakez, SheldonCooper}
1.

I don't see why Cabd and GiF are the towniest on this page but whatever it's page 1. Sheldon seems to be pretty clearly still doing his alt gimmick which I wish he'd go back to because it was entertaining and when you're struggling with burnt out sometimes a gimmick like that can help. Sir Cakes didn't even post on this page, so i'm going to guess this is either the null line or you've decide that Sheldon was bussing Cakes in RVS. I know that you sometimes put players who haven't posted yet in your readslists to show where the null line is but why only the one player who hadn't posted yet?

In post 962, Ranger wrote:{
Kuroi
}
{GuyWhoseSlotIAlmostTook, Cabd,
Aneninen
}
{Fire Assassin, Traveling Salesman}
{JavaJoe}
{SirCakez, SheldonCooper}
2.

On page two all that Kuroi had done was fluff post. I agree that the lightheartedness of it is kind of town. I still think it wasn't clear from 35 whether he was sucking up to me or expressing fear of me; I retroactively townread the post once i knew which it was but at the time it was nullish for me. I have no idea why Cakes is scum on this page from Ranger's point of view. From my own point of view it was for the way he was inquiring about my reads when I pretty clearly hadn't just forgotten to attach names to the readslist, but why does Ranger place him so low? Anen enters overapologetically and I am townreading him by now but I've seen him make entrances like that as both alignments; I don't know why Ranger has him so high here unless she thinks he's not bussing Sheldon in RVS? If she thinks Sheldon wouldn't be sniping at him in 49 if they were scum together?

In post 963, Ranger wrote:{Kuroi}
{GuyWhoseSlotIAlmostTook, Cabd, Aneninen}
{Fire Assassin,
JavaJoe
}
{
Traveling Salesman
}
{SirCakez, SheldonCooper}
4.

Java rises because of the double voter claim. I fall a little bit and skimming my posts I have no idea why. Maybe because she disagrees with my early reads?

In post 965, Ranger wrote:{Kuroi,
Javajoe
}
{
chilledtea
}
{GuyWhoseSlotIAlmostTook, Cabd, Aneninen}
{Fire Assassin}
{Traveling Salesman}
{SirCakez, SheldonCooper}
5.

Tea's only post on this page is very short and it's a vote on Cakes so I'm going to guess that tea starts this high because of Ranger thinks tea isn't bussing Cakes. Java has risen to the top townreads in spite of not posting on this page at all. The only mention of him on this page is GiF saying that modmeta indicates the double voter is probably town. Magna also talked about him, but Ranger implied she isn't reading dead town posts.

In post 967, Ranger wrote:{Kuroi, Javajoe}
{chilledtea}
{GuyWhoseSlotIAlmostTook, Cabd, Aneninen}
{Fire Assassin}
{
SheldonCooper
}
{SirCakez,
Traveling Salesman
}
This is more accurate. 7.

Pages 6-7, Sheldon goes up a little bit and I go down a little bit. This was around the time I expressed a metascumread on her slot so I'm going to guess that's the reason for it. In a recent game with Meeseeks I whiteknighted the shit out of him as town because of meta and I probably would've done the same here if I were scum hoping he'd pattern match and townread me for it but whatever. Sheldon didn't post at all on this page so it's strange that I didn't just fall into the {Cakes, Sheldon, Salesmsan} bottom tier. Why did he rise above when he hadn't posted?

In post 971, Ranger wrote:{Kuroi, Javajoe,
chilledtea
}
{GuyWhoseSlotIAlmostTook, Cabd, Aneninen}
{Fire Assassin}
{SheldonCooper}
{SirCakez, Traveling Salesman}
9.

Chilledtea rises, probably because he was picking a fight with me. I agree that picking a fight with a more experienced player is towner than not from a newer player but my main problem with this series of readslists is that it's selling a narrative, that appears to have been decided before even her very first post, that the scumteam is me, sheldon, and cakes, and there's no serious evolution in her reads, everything comes from that perspective, the perspective starts before all of us had even posted, and people become more town when they push against us.

It's like Ranger needed a game state in which she wasn't scum to write her reads lists from that perspective, so she imagined one, and all of her reads are being written from the perspective of that imaginary game instead of this real one that we're actually playing.

In post 977, Ranger wrote:{Kuroi, Javajoe, chilledtea}
{
GuyWhoseSlotIAlmostTook
}
{Cabd, Aneninen}
{Fire Assassin}
{SheldonCooper}
{SirCakez, Traveling Salesman}
12.

GiF rises above Cabd and Anen on these three pages for his string of catchup posts. Ranger, why was this catchup of his so town? What's unfakeable about it? He has two of your scumreads in the null category and one in the town category, so it's not just you agreeing with his reads.

In post 978, Ranger wrote:
Aneninen wrote:I strongly think Meeseeks is a planned mislynch by some scums.
You would be right.

I strongly advise you to look back with the benefit of time and wisdom and see who, exactly, the stronger pushers of that wagon were.
{Kuroi, Javajoe, chilledtea,
Aneninen
}
{GuyWhoseSlotIAlmostTook}
{Cabd}
{Fire Assassin}
{SheldonCooper}
{SirCakez, Traveling Salesman}
13.

Anen rises because he townreads her slot. zzzz. And this is her last reads list. She got tired of shuffling people around slightly in response to whether their posts matched this imaginary game state of hers or not and called it good on page 13.

In post 983, Ranger wrote:429/430 look like scum-scum interactions.

Cakes says "who is sheldon's alt wtf" and is talking to me and Ranger calls it scum-scum. I guess she thinks he's faking not knowing who sheldon's alt is? As if Sheldon would out himself in private if he wanted to reuse the alt in the future? What about this interaction looks like scum-scum?

In post 985, Ranger wrote:509 is scum deflecting away from the scum lynch onto a town player.

Before SirCakez was even wagoned to the point of claiming, I might add.

claiming tomorrow is fine, i dont mind. claiming today? that has a very high chance of messing up my role.
Will confirm this. The first night was the most important. Future nights are a little more tricky with this power.

What about this post is scum deflecting away from a scum lynch rather than white knighting a townie?

In post 988, Ranger wrote:And it's at this point I realize I probably shoulda been pointing out posts that are scum even without interactions.
747 felt like a scum post.
749 felt like scum-scum interactions.

I agree that 747 was meh and it could easily be scum pretending not to know who was nightkilled, but it also seems a bit obvious. 749 was me poking at Sheldon to see how he would respond once he "figured out" that Magna was nightkilled. In a recent offsite game, I forgot who the nightkill was and left them in my readslist the next day saying I needed to ISO them because I wasn't sure. I never thought such a thing could happen to me. It was embarrassing as fuck. I had a strong emotional reaction when I realised what I'd done. I felt really dumb. It was one of those things that i'd never do as scum because my ego tells me that I would never be that dumb as town and then here I was being exactly that dumb as town.

And in response, several town players played along with it to see what the fuck I was doing, why was I talking about the nightkill as if they were still alive, was I going for a low hanging fruit newbish towncred grab wanting to be derpcleared? Had I really forgotten who the nightkill was? They posted a response very similar to my 749. Since I had just been in that situation myself and it was fresh on my mind, I wanted to see if Sheldon would respond the way I had done, so I did to him what those town players had done to me. For the record, he didn't respond the way I did.

In post 989, Ranger wrote:751 felt off.
752 is a similar deflection to the shos deflection yesterday.

I posted 751 because I really wanted Sheldon to respond and acknowledge his mistake and I was being silly. There was nothing off about it.

752 did ping me a bit because there was no acknowledgement of the nightkill thing and it was another "hey i don't know how big the neighbourhood is" post which I think is something scum would be more aware of.

In post 990, Ranger wrote:791 feels like scum interactions.
798 feels like scum interactions.

You say that 791 feels like scum interactions but it's a readslist by Sheldon, not an interaction, in which he is whiteknighting me. I have been trying not to say this because I've been wanting to extend my lifespan if it's true, but I'm tired of that, but this post did make me feel paranoid of Sheldon if chilledtea was town because it felt like Sheldon was sticking up for me, which I appreciated but it came at an odd moment, after the thing with chilledtea and me had died down, and it felt like he was reaching out to me specifically and trying to pocket me, but I have found a lot of utility in pretending to be pocketed and saving my paranoia for later. I'm not going to paranoia lynch Sheldon right now, and I hope the game will end before it comes to that, but I am feeling that I'm not long for this life so I won't take the paranoia to my grave. We've got like six investigatives though so hopefully the problem of Sheldon's alignment can be solved that way.

Cakes townreads Sheldon for that post and you call it a scum interaction. Why? Remember that Cakes has no idea who Sheldon is.

In post 991, Ranger wrote:802 REALLY feels like scum interactions.

Why?

In post 992, Ranger wrote:908 looks like scum interactions.
911 looks like scum interactions.

908 is a post of mine. I can't think of anything that looks scummy in this post. Sometimes when I'm town I feel like nothing I'm doing is alignment indicative because I can sort of feel what my scumself would be doing but this isn't one of those games for me. I have no idea if I'd be talking to Sheldon like that if we were scum together. Maybe? If I were scum and had a really strong grasp of what my townself would be thinking, then sure? I guess? It's just a post where i'm talking about my reads with Sheldon and prying more deeply into his reads because I want to sort him?

911 doesn't look anything like scum interactions. If I make an ISO map of a living scumbuddy, which I don't think i've ever done except when I was bussing and probably should fix that at some point, but I make damn sure that the post is really polished and shiny and that my interactions look good in that post.

This is what scum interactions look like. (the buddies that I mentioned int hat post were skybird and tictac, everyone else i talked about was town.)

map of a dead buddy. (spread out over a few posts because of the tiger attack, ending in 5576)

I mean, Ranger just basically went through our posts and anytime we talked to each other she called it scum interactions. It's lazy as fuck.

Her reads haven't changed in a meaningful way since page 1. This is not how her reads evolve when she's town.

Fire Assassin is

also

scum.

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:01 pm

If you don't like walls, this is the important part that I want everybody to read. If you want to know why I think this, read the damn wall:

In post 1081, Travelling Salesman wrote:my main problem with this series of readslists is that it's selling a narrative, that appears to have been decided before even her very first post, that the scumteam is me, sheldon, and cakes, and there's no serious evolution in her reads, everything comes from that perspective, the perspective starts before all of us had even posted, and people become more town when they push against us.

It's like Ranger needed a game state in which she wasn't scum to write her reads lists from that perspective, so she imagined one, and all of her reads are being written from the perspective of that imaginary game instead of this real one that we're actually playing.

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:02 pm

Now I'm going to go through and respond to the other things people have been nibbling at me about because it's irritating.

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:20 pm

One thing that I find irritating is when people pick at me for the way I communicate. It feels like people care more about the form my language comes out in than the content.

In post 1048, Aneninen wrote:
In post 959, Travelling Salesman wrote:Hi Ranger!

I am so, so sorry that you replaced into a probscum slot.
I didn't like that one.

In Tarot, I replaced into a slot that was widely (and correctly) scumread. One of the people that was scumreading my slot was Wall of Fire, both members of that hydra are people that I like who also like me and I'm pretty sure it was my friend Mastina who wrote that post. This was their response to my replace in:

In post 5245, Wall of Fire wrote:VOTE: Plotinus.
I am so, so sorry that you replaced into a probscum slot.

I was referencing that game for a reason and saying something to all of the players who were in that game, because I tend to forget that other people don't have eidetic memories and wouldn't notice the reference, but Aneninen was in that game, and Cabd, and I was there too, I replaced Echo Echo, and everybody was really sure that if Echo Echo was a metal sonic alt then my slot was 100% scum because of meta and then metal sonic was banned and ~all of a sudden~, ~mysteriously~ Echo Echo needed to be replaced, which was a very strong hint that they were correct that Echo Echo was a metal sonic alt, and that he was indeed scum.

In this game, Meeseeks is an alt of a player that I am able to meta read very very well, and he has been replaced by another player who I am able to meta read. And he is scum. I was quoting Mastina for a reason, and even if nobody else remembers that post and the way she greeted me, I was drawing a connection between the two moments on purpose. Anen, you didn't mind it in Tarot when Mastina greeted me that way, why do you mind it here when I greet Ranger like that?

In post 1048, Aneninen wrote:
In post 972, Travelling Salesman wrote:@Java: Yeah, that's why she's at L-6.

In post 973, Javajoe24 wrote:Im not saying she is close to lynch, I am saying almost all players said that they have a scum read on Meseeks.
And I really didn't like this interaction AFTER those posts above.

What was wrong with me pointing out to Java that his impression of thread temperature was incorrect? What is scummy about him having an incorrect impression of thread temperature? I tend to be hyperaware of it as both alignments but if a player is only aware of it as one alignment then that's usually scum.

In post 1049, Aneninen wrote:
In post 981, Travelling Salesman wrote:Ranger, please read at least until the end of day 1 before giving up, you're about halfway there and it gets less wally and faster to read during the deadline scramble.
Eeiiaaoo. That was a terrible answer. Someone seems to be worried about getting a vote from Ranger.

I don't give a shit of scum votes me. I would be sad if I thought she was town but she's not so she's just doing her scum thing.

In post 1055, KuroiXHF wrote:Logic is the only weapon we have. If you intended on being emotional this entire game, you're useless to town.

Logic and emotion are not opposites.

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:22 pm

VOTE: Ranger L-4.

I am 100% okay with the Fire Assassin wagon, a town investigative would've said who he investigated on night 1 and what the result was even if his result wasn't meaningful, but he should not be hammered before Sheldon says whatever he wants to say.

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:33 pm

I am on fire this game and my reads are really good and if I die you're going to listen to these reads:

town: GIF
99% town never lynch these ever: Aneninen, Kuroi
almost certainly town: Cakes, Java,
PoE town but I don't really know: Cabd
If both of my scumreads are right, then one of these is also scum but I don't know which: chilledtea, Sheldon
scum: Ranger, Fire Assassin

If Ranger for some reason flips town, which she won't, but if she does, then Cakes and Java are back on the table, but Meeseeks' point that "everyone who picked an element is in the neighbourhood" means that the neighbourhood is truly random so we can't say "well probably scum in the hood so let's lynch the whole thing."

After Ranger and Fire Assassin have been lynched, and both have flipped scum, lynch tea and if the game isn't over then worry about Sheldon.

The neighbourhood activity levels don't point to there being more than one scum in the hood. When there's two scum in a hood with a townie the interactions get really weird and most people don't know how to talk to their buddy and the townie at the same time and find it easier to just talk in the main game thread. Neighbourhoods with two scum and a townie tend to be very very very quiet.

Three scum in the hood would be hilarious but if my reads are that bad then i'll be staying alive long enough to reconsider things.

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:59 pm

I've had a total of 41 neighbourhoods across the 5 non newbie games that I've modded so far and i paid really close attention to the hood dynamics so that's why I expect to be listened to about my opinions on neighbourhoods.

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:48 pm

Ranger, I know that you know that I believe that confirmable roles are not the same as confirmable alignments and that I'm very reluctant to call anybody conftown just because they've claimed something confirmable because as scum I've coasted by on claiming my real role and I've seen other scum do it too. I went and looked up what the likelihood of it being a scum vs town role, determined that 5 out of 6 times in minis, double voter is a town role, and said that there was an 83% chance that Java was town which is good enough for day 1. How is that discrediting?

Sheldon is not a player who avoids bussing and you pretending not to know that pings the fuck out of me when you definitely do know who he is.

In post 1093, Ranger wrote:This is, quite literally, setting up every possible lynch except SirCakez and Sheldon. I suspect there's good reason for that!

...no? If my 2 scum reads are right, there is a pool of exactly two players that i'm looking at for the last scum in which means a pool of 6 that i would never lynch under those circumstances, and one of the players in the "i would lynch this" pool is Sheldon.

if 1 of my scumreads is right, then depending on which one it is, the pool windens a tiny bit because when you're wrong about something you take that into account but at least 4 people remain in the never lynch pool which is enough for autowin. If you're scum, then Cakes and Java are both town period. If you're town, which you're not, then one but not both of Cakes/Java could be scum in your place.

That entire post of mine is an if then tree with never more than 1 excess scumread in the lynch pool:

likely:
If fire and ranger both scum: lynch chilled, then probably sheldon.

unlikely:
if fire scum and ranger town: figure out which of java/cakes is scum.

unlikely:
if fire town and ranger scum: chilled and sheldon could be scum together by PoE because everybody else is town.

extremely unlikely:
if fire and ranger are both town: ignore all of my reads and do a hard reset.

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:52 pm

In post 1094, Ranger wrote:In particular, the posts that made me think SirCakez was scum was post 29 in the neighborhood where he called shos a moron for not claiming a confirmable role, and then post 34 where--during the night phase--he calls MagnaofIllusion as possible scum. This felt to me like it was scum knowledge of who the nightkill was going to be, to set up a 'townslip', as in, during the night (not before), "Magna could be scum!", *magna dies*, "Oh, SirCakez said Magna could be scum, he wouldn't have said that if he were scum and knew they were planning on killing him".

Also, on the note of MagnaofIllusion, Traveling Salesman quoting MagnaofIllusion shortly after he died is another thing. That is not a hint that most players would pick up on. The two players in this game most likely to kill MagnaofIllusion because of a PR hint would be {Sheldon, Traveling Salesman}.

The neighbourhood information is information I did not have privvy to.

When someone is nightkilled that I don't expect, I go back through their ISO to figure out why. Magna saying "6! the lucky number is 6!" is not something I would've nightkilled him for as scum because this is a role madness game where everybody is a PR. And "6 is the magic number!" doesn't sound like a threatening PR. I was expecting to be nightkilled myself for counterclaiming your predecessor. I might've killed sheldon if i were scum. if I was scum together with sheldon i probably would've let sheldon pick who to kill but if it were up to me i would've gone with kuroi probably because i would've been positioned well enough to waste a kill on someone that was killing my motivation to play the game.

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:53 pm

In post 1096, Fire Assassin wrote:I hate how many preflip associations are being made right now.

It really sucks when town figures out the scumteam and all you can do to fight back is discredit!

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:57 pm

In post 1099, Fire Assassin wrote:
In post 1095, Travelling Salesman wrote:unlikely:
if fire town and ranger scum: chilled and sheldon could be scum together by PoE because everybody else is town.

extremely unlikely:
if fire and ranger are both town: ignore all of my reads and do a hard reset.
See all I see here is some mislynch setting up here. I flip town, then you say "okay this was a rather unlikely scenario but its likely ranger based on X assumptions" then Ranger flips town and you throw up your hands? Or what?

You are acting really scummy, or do you just have terrible reasoning......
Maybe this is the fall of plot.

My scumreads on you and Ranger and independent. I think you are both scum. If I'm wrong about one of you, the other is still scum. I think you make sense as scum together but that doesn't play a large part in my read.

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:59 pm

In post 1100, Fire Assassin wrote:
In post 1098, Travelling Salesman wrote:
In post 1096, Fire Assassin wrote:I hate how many preflip associations are being made right now.
It really sucks when town figures out the scumteam and all you can do to fight back is discredit!
You are doing preflip associatons. I point out that is bad. You call that discrediting. How is calling a preflip association bad a discredit. Explain that.

You are reaching.

In my experience, players who complain about preflip associatives are more likely to be scum. In Butterfly when All Alone correctly called my scumteam with preflip associatives, I went after them for it. In Numbers when Frogger called the scumteam correctly, they pounced on him with "preflip associatives are bad".

Preflip associatives in the hands of a competent player are not bad and there is nothing scummy about them.

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:08 pm

If you're a town investigative who is about to die, you have some kind of result from last night that can help put the puzzle together a little bit. Maybe you know that Magna went nowhere last night or that I visited GiF or that nobody visited xxxx or whatever. It might not be the kind of result that would solve the puzzle, but it's a result of some kind. If you're a town investigative, you don't take something like that to your grave because you want town to win after you die and your puzzle piece might not mean much but it's something.

If you're a town investigative, you know that Ranger, Aneninen, Me, and shos have all claimed or flipped investigative roles, and you know that GiF has claimed to be an innocent child or something along those lines which I'd count as a sixth investigative for balance purposes. You know that you having a result on somebody isn't necessarily going ot make them the night kill target and that it's more important to keep somebody from being mislynched. Turning mislynch bait into conftown is a way to win games.

If you're a scum investigative who is going down, it makes sense to clam up because you don't want to clear anybody that you don't have to, people are going to try to figure out if you'd fakeclear a buddy or not and either way it's just safer to say nothing and take one for the team.

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:09 pm

If you're a town investigative who has no idea what the fuck your role does, it's also not terrible to claim your result because there are full flips in this game so maybe we can piece it together after you die anyway.

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:11 pm

Anyway, you're here and you have a really strong townread on Ranger and you think I'm wrong about her. Can you talk about why she's so town? I made a case about her a little while ago explaining why I thought she was scum and how her readslists and catchup make more sense as a scum catchup than a town one. If I'm wrong about her, can you show me where I'm going wrong? What points of mine do you disagree with?

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:13 pm

In post 1107, Fire Assassin wrote:Keep telling yourself people play in your little world where they have to play in X way to be in Y alignment.

Theres reasons I don't reveal info. Want my info? Eat it. You aren't getting it until I feel it is necessary to reveal it.

I don't really care, but you're at L-1 with intent to hammer and I'm explaining to you why I am scumreading you, so if you're town and you want to take your result to the dead thread with you then I'll wash my hands of you.

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:33 pm

In post 1110, Fire Assassin wrote:This is so awful in so many ways. "imagining another game in order to write reads" Read that and make sense of the loops you are throwing where ranger has to be scum.

This might not be the way that you play as scum, not everybody does. There are many valid ways to play scum. But there are players who play scum like this, and I'm pretty sure that Ranger is one of them. I am too.

In post 1110, Fire Assassin wrote:I am not majorly reading Ranger as town for her play, I am doing it from Meeseeks who seemed genuine in his posts on trying to solve the game and being active invovled with it. I didn't see any underhanded behavior or manipulation going on with him. Tone wise he was strong town for me.

Okay, this makes more sense. I'm not sure about the "being active" part since, although he had a lot of posts, they were sporadic and he was feeling disengaged and eventually replaced out due to inability to keep up, which is something that can happen to him as either alignment but he's admitted in sitechat a few months ago that it's more likely to happen to him as scum. He was active early on, though.

Can you point to some posts of his that you thought felt particularly genuine?

In post 1110, Fire Assassin wrote:The last part. The laziness. Ranger isn't lazy, but you call her style so, and I usually agree that her reads list are usually fricking lazy, but thats NAI.

Ranger is not a lazy player, no. She's a minimalist, and her reads lists

look

lazy because she doesn't attach reasons or do lots of quotes but if you probe into her reads, there's usually quite a bit of depth to them. She has reasons for why each player is in that position on that page and she can go back and look at that page and know later on why she put that player there. That's not lazy, it's just concise. I'm not comparing her playstyle to a more showy one like my own when I say that in this particular game she is being lazy with her readslists, because writing lots of words doesn't make me town and not writing very many words doesn't make her scum.

Her reads are lacking the depth that they usually have when she's town.

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:40 pm

In post 1112, Ranger wrote:That wasn't how I read it. I'd have to reread all that section of the game to find the relevant posts and show them, but your posting definitely carried the impression you were telling the town not to trust the claim, rather than saying to trust the claim.

I mean, I spent a little while thinking about it, but I pretty quickly came down on the side of "whatever i'll worry about it later this is town enough for now".

In post 1113, Fire Assassin wrote:Wait ranger do you really not see who Sheldon is?

QFT

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:43 pm

I don't want to out him, but.

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:46 pm

In post 1115, Ranger wrote:
Traveling Salesman wrote:Her reads are lacking the depth that they usually have when she's town.
I have not explained them all. That does not mean there was no depth to them. I have, of course, said that I have had some difficulties explaining everything, but those difficulties are not complete inability, and I've done what I can for the ones I see as important that I've been asked about.

You didn't respond to the heart of my case against you. I would never go after someone for difficulties in explaining everything or not being able to verbalise something, for needing to say "yeah i don't know just something about post xx was really town maybe in the second paragraph or something"

Travelling Salesman · Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:46 pm

In post 1118, Fire Assassin wrote:
In post 1116, Ranger wrote:
Fire Assassin wrote:Wait ranger do you really not see who Sheldon is?
I'm pretty sure I do.
And I'm pretty sure my assessment stands true.
Your assessment is not true at all.
Like, you couldn't be more wrong.

Yep. But we'll let Sheldon decide how to handle it I think; I don't want to be impolite, however obvious it is.

Travelling Salesman · Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:32 am

In post 1122, KuroiXHF wrote:
In post 1095, Travelling Salesman wrote:Sheldon is not a player who avoids bussing and you pretending not to know that pings the fuck out of me when you definitely do know who he is.
Seeing as you just said that he doesn't avoid bussing makes me think you know who he is, so why does it ping you that Fire knows?

It doesn't ping me that fire knows; that's fine. It's obvious who he is. The problem is that Ranger is pretending not to know who he is. It is inconceivable that she doesn't know. Ranger is the person I was talking to in that post if it wasn't clear.

Kuroi wrote:
In post 1117, Travelling Salesman wrote:I don't want to out him, but.
Out him.

If you don't know the player in question well enough to alt guess him then you don't know him well enough to meta him either. It's impolite.

Kuroi wrote:
In post 1120, Travelling Salesman wrote:
In post 1118, Fire Assassin wrote:
In post 1116, Ranger wrote:
Fire Assassin wrote:Wait ranger do you really not see who Sheldon is?
I'm pretty sure I do.
And I'm pretty sure my assessment stands true.
Your assessment is not true at all.
Like, you couldn't be more wrong.
Yep. But we'll let Sheldon decide how to handle it I think; I don't want to be impolite, however obvious it is.
He's not Batman. We're not going to torture him.

Be that as it may.

Travelling Salesman · Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:13 am

I mean, Ranger's hydraed with you, she's spent time understanding you, you guys apparently really bonded in the fire and ice game to the point where she said she was writing in your style and really channelling you, but she thinks Meeseeks of all people is you, purportedly reads his posts, continues to think that's you, and your playstyle is nothing at all like either Meeseeks or Titus'.

I knew who Meeseeks was because he has his alt listed on his wiki and because he altslipped in his completed game.

I saw you alt slip elsewhere; it was deleted quickly but i saw it, around the time this game was on page 10. Calling him Adenine confirmed it for me though (until then I suspected it was you but it could've been anyone else from that elsewhere.)

Travelling Salesman · Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:17 am

The game I whiteknighted the shit out of Davsto in was Micro 600, and I did it based on the same tell I'm using to call him scum in this game.

Travelling Salesman · Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:38 am

If there are more votes for ranger, there can be more bunnies!

Travelling Salesman · Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:01 pm

I don't see any new votes for Ranger. Doesn't anybody want a bunny?

Travelling Salesman · Thu Jun 30, 2016 5:27 pm

The people who are willing to lynch Ranger will be nightkilled one by one until there are less and less of us and the people who aren't really sure are going to stay alive and you'll run out of people who can strong arm a lynch and then scum will win.

Some of you are townreading Meeseeks for getting upset and omgusing the people who were voting for him. He did the same thing in Clowntardis. Some of you are townreading Meeseeks for pretending to scumhunt. He pretends to scumhunt in almost all of his scumgames.

Travelling Salesman · Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:41 pm

He was also scumreading tea and fire, so it's possible he was scumreading the entire scumteam. The best thing he had to say about tea was that the wagon had no momentum at the time, tea and fire weren't his primary scumreads but he wasn't about to defend any of them either.

He was scumreading you too, but I'm townreading you at the moment. RC, I think you'll answer this honestly since I could go look it up but i'm feeling lazy right now so i'm just going to ask it and maybe i'll check whether you told the truth later, but when you're scum do you go out of your way to avoid kills that point to you, like do you try not to wind up in lylo with the night 1, 2, 3, and 4 kills all having died with a scumread on your slot on their lips?

Travelling Salesman · Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:55 pm

It's probably best to sometimes do it one way and othertimes do it the other way, yeah.

You probably could've mislynched him if you wanted to.

Do you know who you would've killed last night if you were scum with Ranger?

Travelling Salesman · Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:11 pm

Thank you, I believe you. And I 100% get the meta thing and being frustrated with people who'd meta you off of just a few games or who have played with you a couple times and think that means something or think that if you can't accurately read them on page 1 then you must be scum because town is definitely the alignment that starts out with the entire thing figured out amirite.

I feel like I was left alive because of my counterclaim on Meeseeks; at that point I was the only town claimed investigative and Meeseeks was a scum investigative and if they didn't know that this setup seems to be dripping with investigatives, and I don't think that was clear until Magna's census taker flip; shos was a hint but not enough of one, and that killing the person who counterclaimed meeseeks would point to him for sure i think -- less so now that there are so many of us but they wouldn't have known that at the time, and I think that in turn points to a scumteam who wasn't aware enough of thread temperature to realise that my death could've been spun that way, that any inaccurate reads i died with could've been milked, that Meeseeks was being townread enough that he would've been better off without me even though I was right about him.

Cakes was what I would've guessed too.

I feel like the way you revealed yourself was pretty town; you did it at just the moment when you'd gotten all you could out of the secret alt thing and could get more out of reactions to the reveal than you would out of the people who weren't going to figure it out continuing to not get it.

Travelling Salesman · Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:21 pm

If you're not interested in the alt discussion then skip it, but we're lynching Ranger today because she's scum.

Travelling Salesman · Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:26 pm

Anen, I know you're conflicted about me and you're worried that I could trick you if I were scum but you also know that there are people that I know how to read, you saw in Micro 600 that I wouldn't let you guys lynch Davsto -- or any of the people that you should've been able to mislynch because they were scummy looking newbies, no matter how pushable any of them looked -- but especially Davsto because he was town and he's someone I can read like 88% and now he's been replaced by Ranger who I can also read and she's scum

too

.

Travelling Salesman · Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:28 pm

In post 1234, Aneninen wrote:As I said, there were at least two players besides me visiting her Last Night.
If she were scum, someone would have posted their result about her, I guess.
[I know it's Ockham's Razor. It
is
possible that she's Godfather, the Night Actions were screwed up or whatever, but as long as there's no proof for these situations, I'm not lynching Ranger.]

I mean, if someone has an actual inno on her that's one thing, but I think a lot of the investigatives aren't very clear cut. Maybe someone tracked her and learned she wasn't the one who did the nightkill or maybe someone visited her and learnt that she is indeed a member of a neighbourhood.

Travelling Salesman · Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:31 pm

In post 1237, Aneninen wrote:Can't we do something else?

Fire Assassin and probablychilledtea (I'm trusting RC on that second one mainly) are also scum, but Ranger is one of those scumplayers who is going to get harder to lynch as the day wears on because people who will be screaming for her death (me and RC) are going to get nightkilled and people like you and Java are going to keep saying "well i don't want to lynch her because I didn't see what Plot and RC were seeing" and that's not your fault, it's my fault for not being able to present my arguments in a way that you find compelling, but I don't know how many more angles I can approach this from; I've made meta arguments for both her and her predecessor that this isn't how either of them play as town. I've made exclusive to this game arguments accusing her of fairly high level scum play and him of middle of the road scumplay (sorry if he's still reading this but this wasn't one of his better scumgames). I've made PoE arguments about why my townreads are town. I don't know what else to do.

Travelling Salesman · Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:31 pm

*as the game wears on

Travelling Salesman · Sat Jul 02, 2016 5:59 am

Ranger's not flipping town.

pedit: sweet!

does anybody else want a bunny?

Travelling Salesman · Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:05 am

I thought about saying yes but I wouldn't get much out of it because she's not online this time of day anyway, so, no, it's L-1.

Travelling Salesman · Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:19 am

If you bus Ranger, i'll pretend not to notice how obvious your reads switch is.

Travelling Salesman · Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:25 am

I got a video for you, Fire

Travelling Salesman · Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:49 am

Sometimes I catch fire
Sometimes I catch tea
But I'm calm as can be
In a town full of strangers
But oh my don't try to get close
I'm just gonna leave
Cause baby, they won't bus ranger
They won't bus ranger

Travelling Salesman · Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:25 am

Travelling Salesman · Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:29 am

Travelling Salesman · Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:21 pm

What's complex differentiable but has a Hausdorff dimension of 4/3?

A Kochy-Riemann snowflake!