Mini 1804: Poker Mafia (Game Over)

[Infinity 324]

Hmm...who should I vote for...?

Being too cautious in RVS is scummy.

VOTE: infinity

@Mod: Does raise: $50 mean raise to $50 or raise by $50?

[Infinity 324]

Raise: $100

[Infinity 324]

{quibixes, MoI}
{s_s, lane}
{mm, persivul}
{infinity}

I like s_s's plan, you could threaten to hammer the person if people refuse to switch.

[Infinity 324]

Pedit: infinity are you copying ranger? if so why are you at the bottom?

Yes, I wanted to see how people would react.

{quibixes, MoI}
{s_s, lane}
{mm, persivul}
{infinity}

I like s_s's plan, you could threaten to hammer the person if people refuse to switch.

I wouldn't get off a lynch that I was pushing for the chance of a scum person taking my spot. That's ridiculous. If you think a person in the wagon is scum, then they should be the wagon. Terrible plan

We still want players that are more likely to be town to get more money...

I won't win lol

So why did you bet all your money?

Could be scum dumping money to each other so they can buy out one of the bigger PRs early.

mod, did scum have pre-game talk? Do they have day talk?

A mislynch to verify this being completely false isn't the worst way to start out the game. However you'll change your mind on due time

Forced line (though it's worth mentioning that town afraid of getting lynched can often come off as forced)

And even if that was my plan to give my money away, magna, chances are it goes to town.

Unless your scum buddy told you he had a strong hand.

This is the only option that has a hint of credibility to me. Honestly, town wouldn't give away their monies at random like that.

@magna. I'm not sure I understand the question. I didn't want to consolidate money into anyone's hands but my own. I didn't expect anyone to call. I want money to get the benefits of getting money. So why am I scummy again?

I find it suspect that you just assumed an immediate All-In would not possibly get called. Especially given you told Pers "I'm not going to win". If anyone calls then odds are overwhelming that one person ends up with $1,000 plus in their bankroll immediately. Which if they are scum is not good for Town.
I could certainly see a pre-game scenario where it was decided to try to consolidate money on one scum via an All-in and scum counterclaim.

Given the abilities in play, Scum would LOVE to get these 1250$ abilities. Especially a Vengeful since they get to one-shot a Townie for free, meaning scum don't really lose momentum from it.

TL;DR Version: Lane, you just made the scummiest move so far, and not just because it's the only big one.

This is even more forced, and doesn't add anything new to the discussion. I like this vote better.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: the mm

{quibixes, MoI}
{s_s, lane}
{mm, persivul}
{infinity}

I like s_s's plan, you could threaten to hammer the person if people refuse to switch.

You can threat all you want, but you need to carry weight behind said threat. Otherwise, it's meaningless. I'm not committing to voting anyone over something like this.

Then you would just hammer if people refused to switch, you wouldn't really lose anything.

I really like this question and thought process. I hadn't considered any money shenanigans, but it makes sense that the scum may want to pool their money together under one person if they can, especially given how everything costs more than $500.

Does this necessarily point to lane as scum though? I'm thinking no. lane strikes me as the impulsive type. I don't get the feeling that his bet was part of a gambit, but it's something to still consider going forward.

I agree with this, lane looks impulsive and a little selfish but almost too obviously so to be scum.

I'm electing not to vote at this time.

Any reason for this?

So an actual reads list:

RedCoyote - null: I liked how he picked up on the lane thing, but some of what he said is kinda filler.
s_s - town: He seems to be genuinely trying to figure stuff out.
persivul - null lean town: gut
MoI - null lean town: gut
lane - town: gut, plus he's being bold and open with his thoughts
mm - scum: Posts feel forced and I didn't like 61

[Infinity 324]

Meanwhile your RVS vote is still on rc.

Do you have any reads yet?

[Infinity 324]

Fold

[Infinity 324]

I thought his posts seemed forced, and I thought 61 in particular didn't add anything to the discussion. He agreed with something someone else said, stated the obvious, and pointed out that your raise was scummy when other people had already done the same thing. Seems like kinda trying to look busy.

[Infinity 324]

zero scum game

lol

What did you think about RC's post in terms of his alignment?

[Infinity 324]

^^ town

[Infinity 324]

I probably should've called cause now my top scumread is probably gonna get a shitton of money :/

Hand sucked tho, I got out-bluffed lol

What do you think about mm so far, lane?

[Infinity 324]

O...k

I don't know what to make of the fact that I ask you to look at mm and then you vote him for different reasons for me. igmeou. Let's see where this goes though.

[Infinity 324]

What's wrong with voting for different reasons than you?

It would've been scummier had you repeated the same reasons, but I still thought it was weird that I said "what do you think about mm" and you said "oh he's scum I'll vote him"

Anyway you're still null-town to me.

[Infinity 324]

MM has decent analysis, but nothing that can't be faked by scum, and he doesn't actually use it to take very many stances. (By the way, my page 1 reads list was random gut reads and to see how people would react.)

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: The MM
Based on the chip dumping theory and a reads list full of nulls. If you don't have any reads yet, why put up a list? Oh yeah...because it looks kinda townie.

Because it has some leanings (some are so soft they don't show up in the final results) and I'm making sure everyone keeps track of that. I'm not writing down people as scum or town this easily as y'all, that's it. Do I need to write down my tiniest leans? People can change my opinion of them in one post.

The mm, who said you were playing badly? I must've missed that. And why is everyone single one of your reads null?

Your votes for me basically say I'm transparent scum, guys; which would mean I'm bad. I'm not.
My reads are null with very soft leans in case you can read and spot them.

Who is scum just following Persivul's idea? I'll find you. Unless it's just mm and only mm

What idea? The chip-dumping theory? Just because I'm confident in my hand doesn't mean I'm scum, otherwise that would mean I was just collecting lane's monies. Besides, lane claimed to have done that with no coordination, so what do you think are the odds of the guy with the nuts be town? Just down to luck, out of the 10 remaning, odds are 2 or 3 are scum, making it like 75% chance I'm town.

Just saying, people here take too many things at face value.
Apparently some of you have already played each other and thus know each other a bunch, but I didn't. That means I can't go full gung-ho with gut-based or entirely reason-based reads because I don't know how you act at all.
Seems to me, though, that you are not even trying and draw conclusions and vote me at the drop of a hat. A day phase is 2 weeks, we could at least use the time.

Ok, just noticed your join date. Early in day 1, people often try to exaggerate little things to get discussion going and put pressure on people. This may be what you're pointing out as "taking too many things at face value". I will tell you that

I like this reaction to pressure, especially given he's new to the site. I think what he's done so far fits with new town.

VOTE: The MM
Based on the chip dumping theory and a reads list full of nulls. If you don't have any reads yet, why put up a list? Oh yeah...because it looks kinda townie.

Because it has some leanings (some are so soft they don't show up in the final results) and I'm making sure everyone keeps track of that. I'm not writing down people as scum or town this easily as y'all, that's it. Do I need to write down my tiniest leans? People can change my opinion of them in one post.

The mm, who said you were playing badly? I must've missed that. And why is everyone single one of your reads null?

Your votes for me basically say I'm transparent scum, guys; which would mean I'm bad. I'm not.
My reads are null with very soft leans in case you can read and spot them.

Who is scum just following Persivul's idea? I'll find you. Unless it's just mm and only mm

What idea? The chip-dumping theory? Just because I'm confident in my hand doesn't mean I'm scum, otherwise that would mean I was just collecting lane's monies. Besides, lane claimed to have done that with no coordination, so what do you think are the odds of the guy with the nuts be town? Just down to luck, out of the 10 remaning, odds are 2 or 3 are scum, making it like 75% chance I'm town.

Just saying, people here take too many things at face value.
Apparently some of you have already played each other and thus know each other a bunch, but I didn't. That means I can't go full gung-ho with gut-based or entirely reason-based reads because I don't know how you act at all.
Seems to me, though, that you are not even trying and draw conclusions and vote me at the drop of a hat. A day phase is 2 weeks, we could at least use the time.

Ok, just noticed your join date. Early in day 1, people often try to exaggerate little things to get discussion going and put pressure on people. This may be what you're pointing out as "taking too many things at face value". I will tell you that

I like this reaction to pressure, especially given he's new to the site. I think what he's done so far fits with new town.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: rc

I will say, however, if at a later point we think mm looks like scum, we should lynch him because

qubixes, do you have any reads yet? What do you think of mm (in particular, his last post)?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: rc

I will say, however, if at a later point we think mm looks like scum, we should lynch him because

qubixes, do you have any reads yet? What do you think of mm (in particular, his last post)

[Infinity 324]

Eugh, my post fucked up.

Not many people responded to my random reads list, but s_s responded in a towny way.

[Infinity 324]

Was NAI, he seemed to read too much into it

[Infinity 324]

Then you would just hammer if people refused to switch, you wouldn't really lose anything.

S_S says that we should force the scummy players off of a wagon. The only way to "force" players off would be to vote them. Therefore, it's your contention that you could dismantle the entire wagon on one player and move it to another player? You don't think there would be any issues in doing that?

This is just me being dumb, I thought if someone stated intent to hammer on the person about to the lynched then somehow that would motivate the scummier players to get off the wagon and let townier players on. Though, some may agree if it meant their top scumread(s) got off the wagon as well.

Infinity, is there something I'm supposed to respond to in 101? You voting me in that post seems random.

At first I voted you because you were my most active null read and I wanted to see your response, but this comes off as quite forced, as scum often want specific reason they are being scumread so they can defend themselves. I like my vote where it is.

What did you think about RC's post in terms of his alignment?

You can read below but this bring up two questions –

1. Why did you specifically ask me?
2. You post before this seems to not be drawing the same read I am. Why is that? I see your later vote but that vote is basically naked and nothing in your ISO says “I suspect RC” to my eyes.

1. No particular reason, was just to get discussion going and I wanted another opinion on the post
2. See above, the only thing that read town to me about his posts was the comment on lane that I agreed with, but I definitely agree that his posts have gotten scummier since then.

Not many people responded to my random reads list, but s_s responded in a towny way.

Please elaborate on what exactly was his Townie reaction.

It felt like a natural response, that's it

I like MoI's push on RC, it might be a little confirmation biased but I have a growing gut scumread on RC and MoI is doing a good job of putting a finger on why that is. RC seems too careful, and I didn't like how in his first post the analysis I liked seemed to imply lane-town but when MoI questions him on it RC says "lane could be town, but he could also be scum". It might be him backtracking when MoI called out his original defense of lane, and it also could be leaving open the possibility of pushing a lane lynch in the future.

@RC, do you have a read on lane now?

s_s - town: He seems to be genuinely trying to figure stuff out.

I would like elaboration on this, it sounds rather generic.

I liked your theory in 16. Theory discussion can be used as an excuse to avoid read discussion, but it didn't really feel like you were doing that given your scumhunt-y 45. You can call it a gut read, I guess.

The analysis in 120 also seems pretty hard to fake, so you're a pretty solid townread atm.

MM continues to look like newbtown.

[Infinity 324]

I don't like this mm wagon, and I'm the one that started it Often, the difference between noobscum and noobtown is that noobscum in general is very careful to avoid doing anything scummy, and tries to avoid engagement. Since his first few posts, I felt like mm has been rather open about his actions and stances and has definitely not tried to avoid engagement.

The admissions of trying to look town, being rash with your bets don't make me feel better either.

This is exactly what I'm talking about; I think noobscum would be more careful than this, especially given he seems to have a careful personality.

At the moment I don't think lane and MM are team mates with their interaction outside the poker mini-game. And if they're not, I think lane is more likely than not town (if he has the bad hand he says he has), because I don't think scum would take that big of a risk with a bad hand, unless they have a partner with a very strong hand to back it up.

This kind of implies that they can't both be town, why?

So, anyone up for an RC wagon?

[Infinity 324]

Fold

[Infinity 324]

MM making excuses as a response to being attacked for a mistake is natural both as scum and town.

Infinity, are you still townreading Persivul?

Yes, still the gut read.

[Infinity 324]

I think the argument about getting the price wrong is shit; not everyone is as detail-oriented as you guys are apparently. I'm certainly not.

Regarding red cameltoe: He comes across as somewhat stilted, but his argument and vote on MM seems reasonable. He null- then town-read Lane despite my having paired them together, so he wasn't just sheeping.

I actually thought his reasoning for voting MM was pretty weak (though admittely fine for a page 5 vote). If mm flipped town, how would that change your read on RC?

[Infinity 324]

I do want mm to respond about the games he played off-site though.

[Infinity 324]

You have any other reads? Why vote lane over persivul?

[Infinity 324]

Lane is moving up to pretty strong town for being open with all his thoughts.

I don't like faq's entrance but I'll wait for him to answer my questions before I move my vote off of RC.

[Infinity 324]

You have any other reads? Why vote lane over persivul?

Why vote persivul?

You said something was a blatant rolefish, sounds like you think he's scum.

I feel like people this game are looking too much at people's actions and taking those at face value rather than trying to analyze the motivation behind them. If lane/mm were scum trying to get money for scum, they wouldn't do it so blatantly. Based on play alone, I think lane and mm (and persivul as well btw) look quite town.

FAQ2, I feel like you're just looking for things to comment on as opposed to actually trying to scumhunt. Some reads with reasons for each, please.

[Infinity 324]

Based on play alone.

I meant that their posts and thoughts look town to me

[Infinity 324]

What's up, are you scum?

[Infinity 324]

Still think RC is trying to generate content as opposed to actually scumhunt.

RC, what do you think of my reasons for calling you scum? Why do you think MoI "forgetting" or "not paying attention" is scum motivated, given that scum would want to have more information as well? Do you have a read on s_s or faq2 atm?

[Infinity 324]

I don't understand how one may scumhunt without "generating content" (defined by me as engaging people, asking questions, and answering questions).

You certainly have to generate content to scum hunt, but there's a difference between trying to scum hunt and trying to generate content, and I feel like you are doing the latter.

As far as your reasons, going off of 135, you seem to be calling my posts "forced". Well, they kind of are, and, as I often have to begrudgingly admit (I say begrudgingly because it generally gets me in trouble even though it's true), I often do have to "force" myself when I draw town. I don't really enjoy playing town. Indeed, I only play Mafia for the opportunities to play as scum. Paradoxically, I tend to draw a lot of negative attention as town due to being more aggressive and devil-may-care with my posts. As scum, I tend to be much more muted and calculated.

You seem to be more calculated as opposed to aggressive this game, can you explain that?

You say you're going to interact with people to try and read them, but I don't see how your interactions so far have been motivated by an attempt to try and determine people's alignment, that's a lot of why I think you're scum.

As far as I can tell, you think MoI is scum because his case on you is a stretch, but I don't necessarily find stretching to be scummy. I think it could also be a sign of confirmation bias or trying to explain a gut read.

[Infinity 324]

I think there is one big problem with a good hand going all-in first. The hands are shown and calling all-in with a bad hand is very suspicious.

This is a good point.

Do you have any reads other than mm?

[Infinity 324]

I think consciously promoting a leading wagon and giving out strong, unequivocal reads is fairly aggressive, certainly moreso than simply reacting to votes or criticism on me. I wouldn't characterize it as scheming or calculating given the fact that I'm unabashedly putting myself out there, not doing what I think will get me to survive longer, but doing what I think will help the town more.

Well the careful part has a lot to do with how you word your posts. Pushing the biggest wagon part is pretty NAI, though I agree you have given strong reads.

I don't see how you can contort my position on MoI as "confirmation bias" or "gut" when, first, I'm not voting him nor planning to do so at this time, second, I have not advocated or stumped for scumMoI, only pointed out what I found interesting and anti-town, and third, explained with some detail as to why I disliked some of MoI's arguments (in other words, if I am giving you rationale, doesn't that necessarily mean I'm

not

relying on "gut"?).

What? I was talking about MoI's stretchy logic being explained by confirmation bias or trying to explain a gut read as opposed to MoI being scum.

PEdit: I think your assassin instincts are misguiding you.

[Infinity 324]

Lane has been super open this game and his thoughts look genuine to me.

[Infinity 324]

What do you mean by a "yes man"

[Infinity 324]

Well that was just 2 points that were good, to be fair

[Infinity 324]

s_s, a lot of things in that post seem to suggest I'm scum, why do you think I'm town?

About mm, I think he's been less careful (the inconsistencies people mention are an example of this) than noob scum would be, especially because he seems more of a careful person to me. I feel like he started off posting carefully, but once he got put under pressure he panicked and tried to over-explain, whereas as scum he would have good explanations prepared for his actions. He also seems quite willing to engage.

PEdit: I don't agree with that at all faq2, and honestly that reasoning seems pretty fabricated. Lane has definitely been trying to scumhunt, the "character attacks" are NAI, and I think most of his changes in reads so far have had a good reason for them.

PEdit 2: Oh I didn't realize that part of your quote about persivul was about the rolefishing. Were you unsure about it from the beginning?

Why do you think persivul is scum for using something you don't think is a scumtell?

[Infinity 324]

I may not be right about the mm, infinity, but I find the over explaining something I think scum would do. People didn't ask him to keep explaining why he called early despite reasons for waiting. But throughout his posts he kept coming up with new reasons for why he did it. I don't like it.

That's a fair point, a lot of my townread on him comes down to gut.

s_s, a lot of things in that post seem to suggest I'm scum, why do you think I'm town?

The only one that actually did was the response to 261. (I originally disliked 264 but that changed once I realized I misunderstood it.) Anyway, throughout the catchup I tried to call each post like I saw it, independent of my thoughts on the player. When I said you were probably town, that was summing up all my thoughts on all your posts. Right now I'm thinking you're the type of town player whom my gut tells me to scumread. (SirCakez, Firebringer, itlepip are other examples)

Ok, makes sense

[Infinity 324]

He does not engage directly with the charge - rather he tries to attack me with a BS meta charge.

The meta is actually what I was talking about, I was wondering why you called him scum just for using a tell you don't agree with.

The timing there is extremely suspect (didn't have any problem with my activity before then), he does not actually go into my meta at all, uses activity as a meta tell which is asinine to start with and ultimately sidesteps the original issue to begin with using that charge. He also tried to cover his fishing with the statement that his choices were obvious not even giving credence to the fact that outing the decisions made tells scum exactly what powers he has and how much money he has remaining. For instance, should he say he was going to purchase the first ability then he does not present any real threat to scum but if he saves that cash for the last one there is a chance that they may want to take him out to prevent that purchase. IOW, rather than get into why his query was toxic to town he attacks immediately and brushes off the fact that town gains no useful information with the question but scum gains tons. If he were town then he would have been genuinely concerned with why I thought such information would be a bad idea to share. There was zero of that.

This is all pretty NAI. Why can't town have just forgot about you until you started posting? Why don't you consider the fact that persivul might've thought the "rolefishing" question useful for scumhunting purposes? Why can't his refusal to respond just be arrogance?

The more I think about it the more I want a Persivul lynch before a Lane lynch.
VOTE: Persivul

Lane can wait till tomorrow.

Doing this only after questioned on it feels forced.

Don't see why scum would push on persivul right now, that's the only reason my vote's staying where it is.

[Infinity 324]

MoI's case on RC is so bad that I think RC could be town. It's mainly based on "you said this thing that doesn't make sense" or "you said this thing I don't agree with", which don't mean at all that RC is scum. Usually it's easy to avoid being called scum for bad arguments as scum, but not if you don't expect those arguments...

That is, I think MoI's case on RC is bad, and I think RC maybe could have avoided doing the things MoI is calling him scum for if he was scum.

I'll have to think about this more.

[Infinity 324]

Ok I looked at RC's recent posts again, and some of them were really towny. The frustration about s_s not seeing the explanation for the persivul reads looks very town to me, and so does his frustration over MoI tunneling him. RC could definitely still be scum, but I'm starting to get the feeling that the way he's playing is more playstyle than anything.

I wanna see what s_s has to say because I really liked his thoughts so far and this game is starting to confuse me cause I have way too many townreads.

Still think faq2 is scum though.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: faq2

[Infinity 324]

I like MoI's defense of mm, but lane has no reason to go all in as scum if mm is town, which basically debunks a large part of the case on him. (I didn't think it was scummy in the first played, I tried to bluff too cause I wasn't used to this many players in a poker game).

Lane and mm are both town guys. Seriously.

[Infinity 324]

I don't like how MoI is using a meta argument to try to prove he's town and not having paranoia that he might be wrong on rc again, but ehh his other posts have been so town

[Infinity 324]

I look like I'm being indecisive cause I am, still trying to figure this game out :/

I think the wording he used ("no matter our alignments") was misleading, but his point was that you arguing for him being scum was normal even if he was town. So the point was meant to be in favor of him being town as opposed to you being scum, and I think he has a point.

What do you make of the fact that you thought he was scum in those 3 games and he ended up being town? Does that make you at all worried that you're wrong again?

[Infinity 324]

I’ll state again – I was 1 of 1 (100%, small sample size aside) in reading him as scum when he was. I was 1 of 4 (25%) reading him as Town when he was. But you are just tossing aside the fact I did read him as scum successfully and saying “Whelp, he read him wrong when RC was Town often enough that RC must be Town” which is frankly a stupid conclusion.

Dafuq

I said nothing about "RC must be town", I'm just saying that it makes it slightly less likely for RC to be scum and I'm saying most townies would at least mention that or take it into consideration

How many games have you been wrong about players? Does that mean you should not pursue them in the future if you think they are scum?

No, but you might use your past experience with a player to help determine whether they are scum in the first place and/or pursure them with less convinction.

Also – given your strong Town read on MM what do you think of the players on his wagon as it stands now? You think Lane is Town. For reference -

MM(4): lane, Red Coyote, BBT, Qubixes

I don't know yet. If there has to be scum on the wagon, I would guess BBT, but it could definitely be all misguided town.

[Infinity 324]

I'd rather wagon faq as he's actually done scummy stuff while fire has done nothing.

[Infinity 324]

@Infinity: you mentioned that MoI had made some towny posts. Can you direct me to them?

Spoiler: MoI's push on RC

Posting for my benefit for later reference – FA and Pers have both made “13 player oops” slips.

The bad part of MM’s full readslist is not that it is not strong. I don’t expect that on Page 4. Why it may be an example of scum play is it appeared right after MM had drawn a couple votes (Infinity and Lane) and has the feel of “Have to post content to look Town before a wagon develops”. Pers’s reaction 92 looks Town. So does Quib’s at 102.

I also an very, very wary of Lane’s buddying / borderline hero worship with Pers. At best it is bad Town play which has caused problems in the past (just look at anyone who are deemed Top Players and you will find a game where they are scum and given a pass due to Hero worship – most recent example I can think of is Killthestory towards Ranger in Open 633 - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=65953 ).

There will be a showdown, right? That might give us some clues as to what happened. If one of the two shows a very premium hand, it's at least unlikely that they are a team.

How do you come to this conclusion – frankly it is the opposite that makes more sense given Pre-Game talk possibilities.

What did you think about RC's post in terms of his alignment?

You can read below but this bring up two questions –

1. Why did you specifically ask me?
2. You post before this seems to not be drawing the same read I am. Why is that? I see your later vote but that vote is basically naked and nothing in your ISO says “I suspect RC” to my eyes.

Not many people responded to my random reads list, but s_s responded in a towny way.

Please elaborate on what exactly was his Townie reaction.

I really like this question and thought process. I hadn't considered any money shenanigans, but it makes sense that the scum may want to pool their money together under one person if they can, especially given how everything costs more than $500.

Does this necessarily point to lane as scum though? I'm thinking no. lane strikes me as the impulsive type. I don't get the feeling that his bet was part of a gambit, but it's something to still consider going forward.

I’m having issues with these linked paragraphs. Specifically the manner in which he just assesses that Lane wouldn’t be scum because he’s impulsive. That doesn’t make any sense given that Lane being an ‘impulsive type’ would be impulsive regardless of the alignment he drew. This looks like reaching to draw a conclusion that he already knows.

Mod, could you put the numerical amount of votes each player has in your VCs? I know I can count them myself, but I'm lazy. Additionally, I think it would be helpful for everyone if you kept track of who's in/out, who called/bet and what, etc. Perhaps in a separate area tag under the VC? Just a suggestion. It would definitely help the game run smoother if we had all the updated info at a glance.

Strikes me as LAMIST to a degree. All of this could have been just as easily handled in a PM. And specifically because it isn’t a question (which others have posted, Pers as I recall most recently) which benefits general knowledge.

VOTE: Red Coyote

Otherwise it could just be someone who tried to bluff and got called. You guys obviously know nothing about poker. People bluff. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. I think it's obvious you guys know nothing about poker to think that there would obviously be a call on all in first hand. You're trying to make it scummy when it isn't.

I think Lane’s response to the pressure has been Null/Reasonable but this post pushes my gut.

Lane made what is the equivalent of Newb101 Poker Bad Play. Going effectively All-In the first hand with what he is claiming is a bad hand is the kind of thing you see from complete novice players. And yet his response is to basically ridicule everyone who suspects him as not understanding poker.

This is 5 card stud with 3 wildcards. Anyone with a modicum of math skills knows that all three Jokers are distributed the first hand. So odds are very favorable that worst case we have three pairs at a minimum among the 11 players. Yet Lane is claiming to understand poker and went all in with a self-proclaimed bad hand?

Doesn’t follow logically for me. Now all this goes away if we get a showdown and Lane actually has a hand that makes sense for trying to draw out calls. But for now I’m still wary of his play.

What idea? The chip-dumping theory? Just because I'm confident in my hand doesn't mean I'm scum, otherwise that would mean I was just collecting lane's monies. Besides, lane claimed to have done that with no coordination, so what do you think are the odds of the guy with the nuts be town? Just down to luck, out of the 10 remaning, odds are 2 or 3 are scum, making it like 75% chance I'm town.

For someone who decried players taking things at face value there is an awful lot you are expecting everyone to just take at face value in this response for it to be reasonable.

See, I agree with FA_Q2's 74 except that I don't see lane's bet as scummy. That said, once we see the hands, I may feel differently.

Please elaborate on what hand combination you think would change your view on Lane and what you think is the situation now with your Town Lane read.

The question everyone has to ask themselves, if you were townMM, would you have called scumlane? If so, why didn't you? If not, why would townMM do this?

This reeks of scum trying to position the argument that there is no logical reason for MM to be Town when the question is very poorly staged.

I would have absolutely called Lane even if I thought he was scum trying some sort of gambit if I had a good 5 card draw poker hand. The obvious answer why I didn’t? I didn’t have a good hand. The second half is pointless given I think Town with a good hand would call scum Lane.

This is a false dichotomy and scummy. If Lane was scum looking to consolidate it is possible MM is a partner. It is also possible that MM has a good 5 card draw hand and he pre-empted scum’s plan as Town. Looking at the vote history he was the second to act.

But only drawing negative conclusions from the scenario is scummy.

I have not characterized my lane read as a townread. I do not think the evidence is there to call him a scumread, however.

Should he have a bad hand, I will reassess at that time.

Stop dodging the question and answer it directly.

What hand are you expecting in your “Lane isn’t scummy” stance?

This is a reach that is completely unworthy of a vote. There's no response for this other than I hope those straws you're grasping at are soft to the touch.

It’s page 5. Anything is going to be a stretch at this point as the game is a whopping 24 hours old. You’ve been around long enough to understand this. Yet you begin with the discrediting language in your first response.

Why shouldn't I acknowledge the elephant in the room? I think you (or someone else) would've criticized me if I didn't address lane or apply this specific argument toward lane. I mean, he's the only one it applys to at this point, after all.

If lane is impulsive, it necessarily weakens the argument that this move was calculated. Because if he's impulsive, he'd maybe do the same bet regardless of his alignment (making the bet null, not scummy). That said, I'm willing to acknowledge the calculated argument is reasonable. I don't find it likely, however, and I'm going to explain why. This was the appropriate time to do so.

1. Moving the goalposts. Not a single point about my argument stated you should not have commented on Lane.
2. Being impulsive isn’t really relevant given the revelation of Pre-Game talk where scum had the change to coordinate their actions. In which case Lane’s partner

could certainly have gotten him on-board with the plan. So your post reads to me as looking for a reason to clear Lane and I think the reason you used was spurious as stated in the first response.

Given your poor arguments in 107, it stands to reason that you'll now comb back over reasonable questions in an attempt to frame them in a negative light.

And more discrediting language. And language that specified implies I'm scum looking to frame innocent posting. Yet no movement to actually vote me. Or anyone since Red specifically avoided voting in his first post.

Happy with my vote.

Those posts are more aggressive than I would expect for scum, and even though they are stretchy, they feel more like confbiased town than tunneling scum to me. I agreed with quite a few of them as well, though his argument has become worse since then. I also like his defense of MM, it echoes a lot of my thoughts. Again, I didn't like how little paranoia he has given he's pushed on RC 3 times before when RC was town, but his response makes me think he actually believes there's no good reason to be paranoid.

What do you think of RC, faq2, and qubixes?

[Infinity 324]

I definitely disagree that scum can't make terrible cases that look like confbias. I've been on both ends of forceful cases by scum on town that were weak at best. I think his defense of MM is contrived and could possibly be partner defending (one reason why I want an MoI flip today), and I agree that his thoughts on RC don't seem real.

I know scum can fake confbias cases, but they rarely actually do in my experience and MoI's push doesn't look like that. It's funny you say the MM defense is contrived, because I agree with it quite a bit.

The fact that he said things that were so close to what I was thinking in his initial push on RC and in his MM defense just makes him very unlikely to be scum from my perspective.

We still have a week, and I kinda wanna pressure a lurker slot to see what we can get out of them.

It just sucks that we have a bunch of players using weak logic and a bunch of lurkers, and most of them are probably town :/

[Infinity 324]

Wait, s_s, you said you were going to reread mm, did you get anything from it?

[Infinity 324]

^^ yeah pretty much that. Especially the "I gotta look like I'm scumhunting" part.

[Infinity 324]

Those are all good points on faq2

It feels like both moi and fa_q2 would do anything not to vote the mm. And I don't like that

And I also don't get this logic.

@MoI and faq2, why is lane scummy for going all in if his partner isn't mm? No one other than mm called him.

Scum is in {faq2, bbt, fire} with an off chance of rc, persivul, or qubixes

[Infinity 324]

^^ lol yeah I don't know either

Fire Assassin is an alt of firebringer I believe so that's where the other games are coming from

[Infinity 324]

Got that impression from here

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p7938080

[Infinity 324]

I looked at persivul's iso and it contains a lot of votes changing around without a lot of explanations or reads. Don't think his vote on faq2 is a bus though.

@persivul, what are your reads atm

[Infinity 324]

I looked at persivul's iso and it contains a lot of votes changing around without a lot of explanations or reads. Don't think his vote on faq2 is a bus though.

I've had 4 votes, 1 in RVS.

I checked your ISO. You've had 4 votes, 1 in RVS.

Why do you characterize my ISO as having "a lot of votes changing around"?

I just thought it was strange that you didn't give many reasons for each and that you seemed to forget each scumread when you unvoted. I was gonna ask you for a reads list but...

We'll see what his replacement says.

[Infinity 324]

The replace out itself I think is town though.

[Infinity 324]

Fire just read the game plskthx

[Infinity 324]

Guys, try to keep calm, it's a game. It's hard enough without people insulting each other.

The replace out itself I think is town though.

Replacing out is a NAI, but everything up to it was very more townlike i would have to say. He could have easily just not wanted to deal with me given our conflicting natures. I have gotten angry before and wanted to replace out as scum before so I should know. I actually kind of think he might be just angry in general and this burst the bubble, but that is personal speculation that has no business in a mafia game.

That, and I also think this particular replace out was town because it was driven by frustration in what he thought was restriction in his scumhunting. We'll see.

VOTE: The MM
This is the right lynch for the day folks. I can make a case if requested but most of their posts are very scummy in some way and have either bad reasoning or skewered priorities and they leak their knowledge that they have more information than the rest of us.

MM is obvnewbtown.

[Infinity 324]

I think fire assassin is town

[Infinity 324]

Of course scumminess doesn't go away when a player is new, but you have to look at things from a very different perspective. Things like awkwardness and contradictions aren't a scumtell for noobs. I have a lot of experience reading them and very rarely am I wrong.

Scumtells for noobs look more like being too careful and avoiding engagement and/or emotion. I see none of that from mm, that's why I say he is obvnewbtown.

[Infinity 324]

What about mm's posts makes him look informed because I'm not seeing it. You pointed out a post where it looked like he knew you were town, why can't that just be him being naive?

[Infinity 324]

he knew I am not on anyones side.

And how exactly would him being scum give him extra information about how you aren't on anyone's side?

I think he was just saying that you would have more enemies if you were scum, not really good logic, but it's not really scummy.

I see what you mean about the other part but it could just as easily be naive town

[Infinity 324]

Hey guys. Been following the game. I'd bet the game on Infinity and Lane being town. Other townreads are MoI, qubixes, Fire Assasin, and RedCoyote. I thought Something_Smart was town earlier but some posts made me rethink that read so I need to go through him again due to possible association with FAQ2. Conflicted on MM. Null on BBT. FAQ2 is a scumread.

VOTE: FA_Q2

Yay, another vote on faq2!

Why are you so confident that I'm town?

To you and everyone else who's questioning s_s, why is that? I really liked his analysis, but a lot of it came from his catchup post, and catchup posts tend to be easier to fake as scum.

Scum is in {faq2, bbt, fire} with an off chance of rc, persivul, or qubixes

Wait, explain. Do you mean there's one scum in that group of six or that you think the entire team is in the group? If it's the former, that's really unhelpful (although almost certainly correct), if it's the latter, you're just making yourself look foolish to try and call the entire game on D1.

I think it more likely than not contains all the scum, given how strong my townreads are on everyone else. (Maybe s_s is in there too). My confidence depends somewhat on the amount of scum there are, but yeah.

@BBT: Why do you take offense from to insults to your scumgame but not the ones to your towngame?

Fold

[Infinity 324]

stgjngdlkag why so many townreads

That response fits with his play so far, and I don't think scum would so blatantly lie about out-of-game stuff, so that's that

[Infinity 324]

Yeah but then someone could just meta-check you (which I don't feel like doing atm) and if you were lying about that they could call you out on your bullshit. I highly doubt it's a lie that you dislike playing as town.

[Infinity 324]

Well my reason for townreading you mainly has to do with the fact that you said you don't like being town. I don't really see how rc got a scumread (well it's just that you're not helping town very much) but I wouldn't have given you a townread at that point either really

[Infinity 324]

MM is town, so yeah

Why are you interacting with me differently that I would expect people to interact with their scumreads?

PEdit: @BBT

[Infinity 324]

Honestly MM looks like a noob to me regardless of his alignment, I think there's a certain amount of awkwardness that comes with having recently joined the site and I think that's why that is.

[Infinity 324]

tbh I think the case on MM would be weak even if he was more experienced on the site

[Infinity 324]

Honestly I find it weird that you say if feels like a WK when you scumread MM and townread me, where did that come from

[Infinity 324]

Ok that makes more sense

[Infinity 324]

MM is obvnewbtown.

Why?

MM is in no way obvious town. New is not alignment indicative anyway - I have seen 'new' players of all stripes and all skill levels.

As I explained earlier, his narrative for noob town makes much more sense for his narrative as noob scum. How in any way did I say he's town

because

he's a noob?

This gives scum to much opportunity to manipulate the outcome.

Explain this

Infinty: [urlhttp://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=8027773#p8027773]post 63 [/url] red flag post on this was how he attacked MM on just one post and ignores the fact MM was talking about lane in the first place in a previous post.

What do you mean by this?

Ask about MM, Lane votes with reason forum and insanity is suspicious of that????

I guess it was just more that I was expecting him to give his thoughts right away, the fact that he had to go back and look kinda pinged me. But lane has been obvtown since then so



The emotions in this post seems very open, and farside seems quite relaxed. I don't like to townread people off of a catchup post, but since I already had a townread on MoI, I doubt this slot is scum.

But the poker stuff IS a minigame, Fire. Also, that plan relies on trust in one player to work. If that player is scum, town's screwed. Besides, there's no such thing as a universally-townread player in here.
By the way, crappy hand: Fold.

Second of the mini game helps us with the main game, its not just simple tacked on gimmick to keep us busy during the main game. We can use it to get closer to our win condition in the main game. By using the mechanics to our advantage, do you not get that?

We can't do what i am suggesting today, but I think we throw some games to Farside/Persivul tomorrow to get them some items/roles to use like BP and Tracker.

And yes, there is rarely a "universal" town read, but there is usually one enough people can agree on that is appropriate like 80% of us agree one player is town, its probably likely they are in fact town.

This seems like a good idea, the problem is that it probably doesn't work unless every single person agrees to it, and we're not at that stage yet. Regardless, I think that if everyone in the game reads a scum player as town, we probably already lost, so I would definitely do that once we get to that point.

[Infinity 324]

faq2 what's your read on mm right now? What's your read on lane? Do you have evidence for lane being scum even if MM is town?

[Infinity 324]

As I said before, there's a certain amount of awkwardness that comes along with joining the site, and I think that's what we're seeing here and why he looks like noob town to me.

Contradicting himself so blatantly wouldn't make sense for such an experienced scum, and from what I can gather from his personality, he seems to be more careful than that.

About farside's catchup, it's comments like this

Well I lied and just read the first 3 pages just now.

OK I want to smack infinity as of page 5 and move him into null town.

that show a level of comfort unusual for scum replacing in. Could be very good scum, but my gut says it isn't.

[Infinity 324]

Farside, what did you think of my back off of RC?

Sorry mod, but I'll be V/LA from july 10th to july 16th

[Infinity 324]

I'm bored and this game is going nowhere. Someone talk to me about s_s

[Infinity 324]

Was more looking to have a discussion on mm than to have someone make a case, but what mm did was helpful (thanks). I still have a strong gut town read on s_s I can't shake.

qubixes is null town for me because his thoughts are organic and well-reasoned (not simplistic), even though I often disagree with them.

[Infinity 324]

I thought the question was NAI lol
Why is fire scum, BBT

PEdit: good alternative = faq2

[Infinity 324]

Lane made quite a good case on faq2 earlier, I'm not good at making cases cause a lot of my thinking is based on gut, so

Idk if we can convince qubixes to join the faq2 wagon since he seems to be tunneling on mm, but we can try

Do you think mm is scummier than faq2? What type of impression do you get of mm's personality that would explain his rather bold and not very careful actions as noob scum? (I'd like everyone who's on the mm wagon to answer that)

[Infinity 324]

Lane, you actually make a really good case. I just can't get over the fact that he always seem to be going somewhere with his questions. The last part is a stretch too because if I think something is towny, that doesn't mean it's the basis for my entire read (and in fact, it wasn't)

Will respond to other stuff soon

PEdit: That's kind of a stretch too.

[Infinity 324]

Fire is prob scum as well.

I already said this earlier:

What's up, are you scum?

Not much, and Probably.

Ok looking back, this seems like it could be an attempt to wave off BBT saying he's scum with WIFOM. Town would be more likely ask why or ignore it.

Why? You think it was scummy of him to bring up his objectively bad play from earlier to me? If he was scum, I'd think he would've completely dodged that.

Because it's designed to do exactly what it just did. Get town reads.

I think it was more of an attempt to call out RC's reasoning, but I could kinda see this

Do you think mm is scummier than faq2? What type of impression do you get of mm's personality that would explain his rather bold and not very careful actions as noob scum? (I'd like everyone who's on the mm wagon to answer that)

Yes, I do think he is scummier.

To reiterate (it's probably good I do this since my original rationale is buried in posts from a while back), he really, really overplayed the newbie card (see: 88), his suspicions of lane originally proved hypcritical (see: 106), and q's comment in 98 was very much on point. He explains why MM acted irrationally in his betting as town. Poker /= Mafia. It has nothing to do with being new to Mafia.

Not the best case against someone that I've ever seen, but it's good enough.

Ok, let me put it this way. With the type of player you perceive MM to be, do you think he would be more bold and less careful than other noob scum? If so, why?

BBT do you want to ask me if I think my scum game is good?

Is your scum game good?

@MM If you don't have a scumread strong enough to commit why are you putting a vote on me? You can see why many of us are confused at your behavior, town or scum you aren't making any sense.

Ok this is really bad, it seems like you know MM won't flip scum.

I will say, Infinity, that I think MoI had a really good point earlier (I think it was MoI) when he said that MM is handling pressure exceedingly well and unlike newbscum may be more inclined to do.

It's not that he's handling pressure particularly well, it's that he's handling pressure completely differently from how noob scum (or any scum) would react. I think scum!mm would hesitate before overexplaining himself as he did. Yet he's still playing the game and trying to scumhunt, whereas if he gave up (which is likely for scum in his position), he wouldn't be doing that.

VOTE: FA_Q2

Ahhh, the sweet sweet WIFOM.

What motivated you to vote here?

Last part, "118 sounds genuine" but isn't alignment indicative. He just was asking someone to elaborate on calling something genuine. The thing I don't like, it's if s_s uses that exact wording, he knows what "sounds genuine" means. So why the heck ask infinity? To look town

Think this is a stretch too, because calling someone genuine on the whole is different from calling 1 post genuine.

Ok I have some ISO's to do, but I still think s_s is town despite some lines that lane pointed out being forced. Lane, I think you should get back on faq2.

@Fire: How good would you say you are at making your interactions with people look genuine as scum?

PEdit: Ok lane I'll try to look for examples to show you what I'm talking about.

[Infinity 324]

Re: Gaming the poker hands

- Not a fan for two reasons: a) It's perfectly plausible for scum to be universal townreads especially if they are good players. Nightkills help POE. When scum get universally townread and are alive in LYLO, being bulletproof is a fantastic excuse for why they're not dead yet. Not being nk'd is actually a pretty great way to catch top-tier scum players and I don't want to take that scumhunting weapon away.

You make quite a good point here. Though if there are more scummy players in the game, I still like fire's plan because then it's less likely that scum is the towniest player and getting actual tracker results, for example, may be very useful.

Also, FA_Q2's non-response to me replacing in and voting him is telling. If he was honestly scumreading my predecessor, he'd have been even more convinced that I was scum for laying down a vote on him with zero reasoning apparently disappearing from the thread. I expected a hard push my way. Also, Persivul's replace out was ridiculously town but FA_Q2 doesn't comment on that either or take any stance on it.

Yeah, exactly.

You said earlier that you were very confident I'm town, why is that?

[Infinity 324]

Spoiler: towny s_s stuff

Could be scum dumping money to each other so they can buy out one of the bigger PRs early.

I really like this question and thought process. I hadn't considered any money shenanigans, but it makes sense that the scum may want to pool their money together under one person if they can, especially given how everything costs more than $500.

Not following this. It's a meh thought process, honestly to me it sounds more likely to come from scum than average. Why do you like it so much?

Like and kind of agree this thought

And to all of you who say I'm playing bad, that's normal: this is my second game here, and it's months after my first due to a quite tense situation I got into IRL. As for being hasty, I was: one of the primal needs of the human body is sleep, and I was in lack of it. I'll be coming up with a readslist as well as I can, but keep in mind that didn't help me much in my first game so don't be surprised if I only dig myself deeper and you end up lynching me.

This is fairly towny. 90 is using a lot of words to say nothing, I'm not sure if it's alignment indicative though. (Maybe slightly towny.)

This seems genuine, and I like how he pointed out that MM's post was town cause I think scum would've called him out for it because it's kind of anti-town

I think several parts of 107 are awfully reachy. I think under certain circumstances, trying to get townread is a null tell, and I think MM would be doing so as either alignment. The LAMIST argument is also pretty tenuous. MoI is one of the few players I've seen firsthand before (as town, and I was modding the game so I wasn't reading as carefully into his posts as if I had been playing, but it's better than nothing) and so far this is looking like this could be the town play I saw, or it could not be. Before anyone jumps on me for fencesitting, the point of this is that I can't draw a clear conclusion from his posts yet.

This seems genuinely trying to read MoI, don't think scum would even bring up fencesitting

I also like his progression of reads throughout the post, it seems like just the right amount of conf bias that is natural.

MoI, do you think lane's alignment is related to his apparent poker knowledge? (You seemed to in 107.) Do you understand why RC says your arguments are poor in 107?

Makes sense to ask these questions given his previous suspicions on MoI

RC, what is your read on Persivul? You've gone to great lengths to argue that lane's bet was non-alignment-indicative, do you have a read on him outside of that? (Especially given that his terrible hand was revealed.)

Makes sense given his previous suspicions on RC, and I think it's a good point

207: I've heard a saying about lying, it goes something like: you can tell a liar because their story fits together TOO perfectly. When people are telling the truth they often misremember or suffer bias that makes their story not perfectly consistent. I therefore don't agree with any of the arguments against MM that relate to his call and explanation thereof.

Very good point, and a lot of the reason why I currently townread MM.

First part of 239: Ugh, this is something I've seen from both town and scum. Sometimes town really does form reads like that but IME if that's all you have to support it then you might want to reevaluate it. Not to mention that it's the easiest read in the world to fake as scum.

Good point, and seems like he's genuinely conflicted on my alignment (though I disagree because that tell is very consistent for me)

Don't know how I feel about lane calling qubixes's posts good points... on the one hand, they are (or at least 267 is... I don't understand 265), but on the other hand this isn't the first time lane's done this and I wonder if once he decided on qubixes as a hard townread he was just going to call everything he did town.

Quite a good point

But that brought up a question.

@s_s, why despite this

207: I've heard a saying about lying, it goes something like: you can tell a liar because their story fits together TOO perfectly. When people are telling the truth they often misremember or suffer bias that makes their story not perfectly consistent. I therefore don't agree with any of the arguments against MM that relate to his call and explanation thereof.

do you still scumread mm?

[Infinity 324]

^^ town

[Infinity 324]

It's just that I thought some of your early posts were forced as lane pointed out but I also think MM and RC's posts are forced so...

[Infinity 324]

Fire, what's your read on faq2 and why?

[Infinity 324]

I think I found something important I just want fire to answer my questions first.

[Infinity 324]

lane, what do you think about s_s's response? It looks very towny to me, he doesn't try to overexplain himself, it looks like he really believes he didn't do anything scummy.

Plus all the stuff I quoted

[Infinity 324]

s_s hasn't even given a read on fire.

fire has given a lot of weakly-reasoned reads on a lot of people.

[Infinity 324]

I'll keep your feeling in mind but I doubt s_s is scum.

[Infinity 324]

@Fire: What's your read on faq2 and why? Why did you vote him and then not mention him the entire game since then?

I expected a hard push my way. Also, Persivul's replace out was ridiculously town but FA_Q2 doesn't comment on that either or take any stance on it.

Replacing out is NAI end of story. I have heard this bullshit over and over again about one replace out is scummy or one is town and they are virtually always random. Replacing out for personal reasons or because you do not enjoy playing with a particular player/play style does not suddenly evaporate when you are scum or town. Nice try though.

Seriously? Persivul wouldn't give a shit about fire not wanting to be meta-read if persivul wasn't trying to read fire in the first place. If persivul was scum, fire making himself harder to read would only benefit scum.

Using "replacing out is NAI" as an excuse for not commenting on an important thing your scumread did is flimsy at best.

faq2 what's your read on mm right now? What's your read on lane? Do you have evidence for lane being scum even if MM is town?

MM is null - I don't really see the scum case against him. Lane is a scum read - I have already outlined why lane is scum and that has not changed.

You think lane is scum because of the bluff, yet it makes no sense to bluff without your partner calling. If lane is scum with someone other than mm, then the bluff still wasn't scum-motivated and a silly mistake just as if he was town.

Do you have any

other

reasons why lane is scum, or are you just going to continue to pretend to scumhunt using the same BS logic from page 10?

[Infinity 324]

Also I did my research on TheMM and the one game he played on MS was much more thoughtful then the one he is playing here. Plus he had scum reads for reason's in that game.
Adding him onto my scum list.

This is a weak as hell meta reason, especially because mm came under a ton of pressure right from the beginning of the game.

Intent to hammer either one of those

Dafuq is this, decide one or the other. Then that person should claim.

Also, I would very much like you not to actually hammer until I get some questions answered. Thanks.

PEdit: @Fire, what exactly about faq2 makes you think he's flipping town? Is it that his wagon has scum on it, or what?

[Infinity 324]

Why can't low hanging fruit be scum? Apparently you're reading him as null based on his play, so...

[Infinity 324]

Sorry mod, but I'll be V/LA from july 10th to july 16th

Mod, did you get this?

[Infinity 324]

I don't have very many scum reads either, that doesn't make mm scum. He seems to be actively trying to scum hunt at least, despite the pressure on him.

Also fire I know you're on dude please answer my question

[Infinity 324]

All right that seems to be all I'm getting out of you.

The stance on the faq2 wagon is pretty scummy.

I'm pretty sure fire is scum, case incoming

[Infinity 324]

I think your assassin instincts are misguiding you.

Have anything to add? Want to go into why I am wrong. I assume you have a townread so you can maybe shed some light on that?

This kinda pings my gut

Lane has been super open this game and his thoughts look genuine to me.

I guess i would have to read the rest of the pages because what i have seen just looks like a yes man.

Kinda backs off his read when questioned in it

Lets see what this does:
VOTE: FA_Q2

Scum like to vote their scumbuddies with weak reasoning so they can back off later. In addition,

he never mentions faq2 once since this post.

He even quoted a post where I suggested faq2 get lynched but he didn't comment on him. His comment about interacting with his scumbuddies could easily be WIFOM.

VOTE: Fire Assassin

He's posting all over site but not here thus playing to his scum meta.

I swear to god if this is a scum meta based on my other account I am going to tear you down with a machine gun.

I think scum would be more upset about this than town

MM is obvnewbtown.

You can't just leave comments like this. I have made several posts and comments on things that don't add up and are from awkward weird pov, he can't be uninformed imo.

Scumminess doesn't just go away when you add the prefix the player new.

Subtle misrep, and oddly hypocritical because he hasn't given that much of a case himself

Its not just awkwardness and contradictions? I think you are missing the crux of my argument that they seem INFORMED.

Doesn't even maintain that the awkwardness/contradictions are scummy,

there is only 1 time fire mentions mm being informed

and even he agrees it's not super scummy.

Anyone want to comment on my plan to throw games so one of us tomorrow gets BP and good abiliites?
Or we just going to treat the poker stuff as a mini game?

I feel like continuing to repeat this is an effort to try and look pro-town

Fire's statement that he is slightly better than average as scum fits his play.

I doubt we can lynch fire today, let's get faq2 today. Still think fire is scum if faq2 is town (which I doubt due to PoE but yeah)

[Infinity 324]

I'm not sure mm has no strong townreads, even so, I've seen noob town do that before and get heat for that exact thing.

[Infinity 324]

I feel like continuing to repeat this is an effort to try and look pro-town
Fire's statement that he is slightly better than average as scum fits his play.

So I am scum because I know how too look pro town and I am better than average player?
I guess I can support this if its a crux for the arguments.

Dafuq is this defense? That's definitely not what I was saying and you know it.

About mm, I'm saying that not having strong reads is not really a scumtell, especially for a noob, as long as he's scumhunting (which he is).

Noobs tend to follow certain patterns on this site, and mm generally follows the town ones.

[Infinity 324]

-Town sometimes misrep and are hypocritical, but this is subtle enough that it makes it more likely to come from scum, like your were trying to hide it.
-I didn't imply any meta read, the fact is that scum are more likely to get upset about them getting scum read than town.
-Where's my vote again? Not giving an opinion on one of the biggest wagons despite giving a lot of content is scummy no matter the alignment of the player tbh.
-The fact that you backed up on it made me feel like you were trying to generate content and interact when you didn't really have much. As town I would've expected you to give a less strong read, or read the thread first and then give your opinions.

You are right I didn't say that awkwardness and contradictions are scummy, awkwardness can be just a personality/playstyle and contradictions can be both town and scum, and I am not as sold on MM being informed as I was when I made the case. I think I make huge leaps to my conclusions sometimes, but he is still worth the lynch to me.

Apparently mm is your strongest or one of your strongest scumreads. You brought up awkwardness and contradictions, but you agree that those could also come from town. You say he seems informed, but the one post you pointed out that made him look informed you're not completely sure is scummy. So why do you think he's scum again?

This is your real scum.

[Infinity 324]

-Town sometimes misrep and are hypocritical, but this is subtle enough that it makes it more likely to come from scum, like your were trying to hide it.
-I didn't imply any meta read, the fact is that scum are more likely to get upset about them getting scum read than town.
-Where's my vote again? Not giving an opinion on one of the biggest wagons despite giving a lot of content is scummy no matter the alignment of the player tbh.
-The fact that you backed up on it made me feel like you were trying to generate content and interact when you didn't really have much. As town I would've expected you to give a less strong read, or read the thread first and then give your opinions.

1) I disagree it was a misrep or hypocritical, but I don't know how I was "Trying to hide it" What? First off, didn't happen, Second off, no point because first part covers this.
2) I have no huge quarrel about being scumread, but the fact was it was based on a meta thing, which never went into detail and for all I knew was based off wildly bad assumptions of my play that is no longer true.
3) How is it scummy if the player is town? The player in question isn't worth discussing beyond the fact they are a leading wagon. Which I tried pushing with a vote, I never moved past that because it never developed into anything yet people are continuing to pressure there for reasons I can't really fathom.
4) These are good points, but I don't think you came to right conclusions on it. When you saying "trying to generate content and interact" I think, yes that is what i was going for. Then you give reasons for what my level of read should be and that I should read and come to wildly odd conclusion based on what I actually did.

-Was a misrep because I obviously wasn't trying to say that mm is town because he's new, and you criticized me for not giving reasoning when you didn't give much yourself.
-Still thought this more likely comes from scum but I'll drop the point for now.
-It's scummy because it's an important topic you avoided discussing. If you actually wanted people to get off faq2 and onto mm then you would at least give some reasoning for that.
-It was odd from a town perspective because you seemed to have a strong read based on 1 page, and as town you're much more likely to discuss actual reads instead of coming up with something to discuss.

I'll ask you again,

what are all the reasons you have for scumreading mm?

Thanks



faq2, you gave some vague reasons about lane being scum here

If I was scum and had day talk... And I planned a scum money dump, how do you think that would actually go? What would be the actual plan?

First of all I wouldn't do the plan if we didn't have better than a pair. And I would've been aware of jokers so a pair doesn't mean much. You can figure this out by saying I have a bad, meh, good, very good, probably unbeatable hand.

2 options to start. Either the one with the good hand goes all in, and the shit hand calls. Or the bad hand goes all in and the good hand calls.

To me, it makes sense for the good hand to go all in first. Then if town calls and there's a chance they have a better hand, the bad hand can save its money. That obviously didn't happen.

So now if the bad hand goes all in, and even if a town calls, the good hand would still go all in, because it would've been decided its a very good hand that probably wouldn't get beat.

Considering there was only one call, the only option here is me and mm.

That's no way we would do that plan unless we were very confident we wouldn't be throwing money away. Cause that'd be dumber than town going all in on a bluff.

So faq2, why aren't you voting the mm?

Because you are scummy for more than your bad play. Not only did you push a bad play but you followed that by defending yourself with character attacks (saying that others obviously do not know how to play poker) and have been almost exclusively defending without any real interest in finding scum. You also seem to be willing to throw suspicion anywhere that might not be you. That is not very townie.

But it's not true at all that lane has been exclusively defending, and flip-flopping on his reads isn't even really a scumtell. It feels like you're just pretending to scumhunt by calling the same person scum for the same reasons instead of actually trying to figure things out.

[Infinity 324]

MM, we want to avoid a no lynch at all costs. Even if you believe faq2 is town, there is a good chance either he or you will just get lynched tomorrow and we'll go back to where we started. I really think faq2 is scum, I don't usually like a lot of d1 wagons but I like this one. Vote faq2, let lane wait until deadline and hammer him.

[Infinity 324]

I'm more confident in fire being scum, but they could definitely be scumbuddies and I think a fire lynch is unrealistic today. Sorry if it feels like I'm pushing you around.

[Infinity 324]

I doubt fire is happening but I'll definitely move my vote there if a couple other people are willing to as well. He's my preferred lynch.

[Infinity 324]

Well that was a fast wagon

I'm kinda suspicious of this and I doubt faq2's vote the is a bus but...I really doubt fire is town given how many town reads I have and how scummy he's been. Let's do it

UNVOTE:
VOTE: fire

Someone intent to hammer, then fire can claim.

[Infinity 324]

Shit, fire is V/LA until after deadline

Ugh

UNVOTE:
VOTE: faq2

[Infinity 324]

We can't risk fire being a PR

[Infinity 324]

Idk man, if there's 3 scum town would need a lot of power to make up for that

[Infinity 324]

Unofficial VC

faq2 - inf, wing, farside, s_s
fire - lane, mm, faq2, bbt
mm - fire, rc

Not voting - qubixes

15 hours left.

So either two people have to move onto faq2 or 2 people have to move onto fire. I'd rather lynch fire without a claim than no lynch.

Someone do something

[Infinity 324]

Ok so fire never gave any strong reasons for voting mm despite being questioned about it multiple times, left it out of his response to me, and then went V/LA. We're doing this.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: fire

Someone just hammer

PEdit: You have a point...

At least promise me you'll hammer before deadline

[Infinity 324]

The thing is, the mod hasn't come here in 5 days...

[Infinity 324]

Ok that makes me feel better

I hope we can get some sort of extension...

[Infinity 324]

That kinda makes me not want to lynch fire today, but we should take a good hard look at him later in the game.

Intent to hammer faq2

[Infinity 324]

faq2 needs to get the hell in here and claim himself -_-

[Infinity 324]

What do people think about my points against MM/FA? I thought they were pretty noteworthy but people seem to just be ignoring them.

I think the associative case is stronger on faq2's side, and scum often intentionally or uninentionally create associatives between themselves and townies. Given my strong town read on MM, I'm not convinced.

[Infinity 324]

O...k

That'll probably be fine, to be honest

I just never like hammers without a claim

[Infinity 324]

What is that supposed to mean

[Infinity 324]

I'm here, catching up now

[Infinity 324]

Looked at wingback slot again, it's town.

Fold

Fire is prob scum as well.

I think this is a lot of the reason why BBT died tonight, kill on me would probably be too obvious.

We should all be following the plan of betting and giving the hands to our townread.

Fire continually pushing this makes me suspicious that scum have something up their sleeve, like a strongman for example. Anyway everyone who's obvtown already folded...

Lane just skipped you, giving you too little time to express yourself, before he kicked FA_Q2 out of the game. He just denied you opportunity to talk and potentially approve / disapprove, and he did that for what..?
Also, wanting money back on him at the cost of a foolish early hammer, especially taking some THAT WAY, just pings the hell out of my gut. Plus I take offense to your "without committing to it" thing. I commit.
VOTE: lane

Seems just like more impulsiveness...

I think I understand the BBT kill. It strikes me as kind of a "don't rock the boat" kill, to eliminate a strong player who hadn't really contributed much this far.
It reminds me of the droog kill in this game.
And I think what it suggests is that town's collective reads are way off, as they were in that game. I'm very disappointed that my MM/FA theory didn't end up being true, and I think that flip means that MM is town too. I definitely want to take a closer look at farside once again.

I think you may be right here, or at least the most active/towniest players have some wrong reads.

Why aren't you dead? You had a lot of money

Cause he's still mislynch bait, and the powers probably aren't going to break the game

Fold

I need to think about a few things before I vote.

This is a very self conscious post.

You didn't want to vote anyone....yeah okay, but why do you feel the need to say that..?

I tend to overthink things and I had a theory i was looking into when I had time.
My first reaction was to just vote MM.
But then I thought about how something smart was blaming people for pushing votes while he sits on his vote for FAQ2.
My brain finds it hard to see them scum together and I start going, farside are you looking at everyone or ignoring people.
Then there is you who's said nothing except willing to hammer.

Right now I'm just going on fumes and waiting for tomorrow before I do anything.

I think I understand the BBT kill. It strikes me as kind of a "don't rock the boat" kill, to eliminate a strong player who hadn't really contributed much this far.
It reminds me of the droog kill in this game.
And I think what it suggests is that town's collective reads are way off, as they were in that game. I'm very disappointed that my MM/FA theory didn't end up being true, and I think that flip means that MM is town too. I definitely want to take a closer look at farside once again.

@Shadow: if only one person wins a hand in any given day, they will be bulletproof the following night. That's the mechanic that Fire wants to (ab)use by throwing hands to townreads.

Are you meaning that we should look at the reads made during day 1 and take them completely opposite? Who didn't even get real votes on? Who looks in control?

No, it just means that scum think they are doing well and don't want us to rethink our reads. Thus, we should rethink our reads. We shouldn't necessarily rethink all of them.

Fold

I need to think about a few things before I vote.

This is a very self conscious post.

You didn't want to vote anyone....yeah okay, but why do you feel the need to say that..?

It's self-aware, not self-conscious. Why did you feel the need to say that?

Wait, why did I vote something_smart?

VOTE: the mm

Why aren't you dead? You had a lot of money

If scum kill someone with a lot of money, most of that money just goes right back into town hands. And why would scum necessarily kill a potential mislynch like MM if he is in fact town?

I think I understand the BBT kill. It strikes me as kind of a "don't rock the boat" kill, to eliminate a strong player who hadn't really contributed much this far.
It reminds me of the droog kill in this game.
And I think what it suggests is that town's collective reads are way off, as they were in that game. I'm very disappointed that my MM/FA theory didn't end up being true, and I think that flip means that MM is town too. I definitely want to take a closer look at farside once again.

@Shadow: if only one person wins a hand in any given day, they will be bulletproof the following night. That's the mechanic that Fire wants to (ab)use by throwing hands to townreads.

I don't even know what you mean by most of this.

Scum want to kill the person who they don't want alive the most. This could be a person liable to start catching them, or one who is widely townread and is leading town in a dangerous direction. Since the scum killed BBT, who wasn't really active, engaged, or in a town leader position, it probably means they aren't too afraid of the above things happening, which probably means that the town's reads, as a whole, are fairly bad.

Wait, why did I vote something_smart?
VOTE: the mm
Why aren't you dead? You had a lot of money

I won a hand, I was freaking Bulletproof. Read'em rules.

Bulletproof only goes into effect if only one person wins money in any given DP. Read'em rules.

Cause I didn't really feel that farside needed to add that to her post.
She simply could have folded and said nothing. She must have thought only doing that would look scummy.

It looked like a conscious effort to not look scummy.

This is quite the stretch...

We are doing both but mostly should be reading players.

Which I think we should 100% lynch MM today

And you still never gave a real reason why you scumread mm...

Regardless. Nothing anyone could say could convince me the mm is town.

This is not helping...

I was confused. I was thinking the mafia who killed them died. Change of plans. No one is getting vengeful lol. We get like 5 people the jail keeper?

Dafuq what?
You've been on this site 5 years, don't tell me you've never encountered a vengeful before.
This looks like a fake town slip.

how would that be a town slip?
Thats him not understanding a role mechanic......
Like thats not exclusive to town, thats a dumbass slip lol. No offense Lane.

It isn't(exclusive) but it generally comes from town, as scum tend to be more careful with the setup and possible roles etc and don't make such obvious mistakes.

That would be some next-level WIFOM

I think I understand the BBT kill. It strikes me as kind of a "don't rock the boat" kill, to eliminate a strong player who hadn't really contributed much this far.
It reminds me of the droog kill in this game.
And I think what it suggests is that town's collective reads are way off, as they were in that game. I'm very disappointed that my MM/FA theory didn't end up being true, and I think that flip means that MM is town too. I definitely want to take a closer look at farside once again.

@Shadow: if only one person wins a hand in any given day, they will be bulletproof the following night. That's the mechanic that Fire wants to (ab)use by throwing hands to townreads.

I'm tempted to sheep this, but... it's one thing to say this and then actually confront yourself with the realities of it. In reality, farside would be the weakest townread, I suppose, when compared to Wingback/SS/lane, that is.

---

People are concentrating too much on the money and abilities instead of the actual game.

A similar thing happened in Blood borne, it was a large theme game which recently finished. Town ended up self destructing which cost us the game.

Two of my more substantial scumreads just flipped town here, so I'm at a bit of an impasse. I'm now thinking MM probably shouldn't be pursued and I should vote one of my town reads from yesterday.

---

I wouldn't mind throwing hands to lane right now? His reaction seemed townie to me saying him too.

I tend to agree with this. lane is my rock this game. Fire acknowledging this just feels town to me, I can't help it. This is going to be a very frustrating game.

VOTE: farside22

This goes against my instincts, but I think farside is a strong candidate for being a scummer in this game that can fool me into thinking she's town. With regard to MoI, some of his attacks were pretty objectively bad, and he may have wanted to get out of dodge this game because he thought he was setting himself up to get pressured. Anyway, let's go with this now until I see something more enticing.

This post is so bad, I may have to re-evaluate my read on RC. You're not trying to re-evaluate your reads, just voting your weakest townread because she could be a good scum? And fire looks town cause he said lane is town? Why don't you explain why you have a townread on everyone.

I'm referring to this post, pre-flip.

@FA: q = qubixes.

I will say that I feel really bad about my top scumreads both being easy mislynches. I think there is a decent probability that one or both of them will flip town. Tomorrow, regardless of who we lynch and what they flip, I want to look in the players controlling the discussion, particularly farside.

Replacing out is NAI end of story. I have heard this bullshit over and over again about one replace out is scummy or one is town and they are virtually always random. Replacing out for personal reasons or because you do not enjoy playing with a particular player/play style does not suddenly evaporate when you are scum or town. Nice try though.

Wrong.

Bullshit. replacing out is NAI period. reading into it more without some sort of reasoning is reaching and asinine.

I once played a game where I had to replace out because I saw my friend posting in the scum PT. Now if I had shared that reason with the town, do you still think it would have been NAI?

This is a hell of a stretch...

Also I love when players dodge questions like something smart does.

You want me to answer the question?
The answer is that I don't have a magical voice inside my head telling me everyone's alignment. So of course I'm going to recognize that my scumread might be wrong.

What did you expect to learn from asking that question?

Town response.

Would like a reads list from shadow, I don't like how he just jumped in and gave intent to hammer on d1. I think farside would've died if he was scum though...

VOTE: fire

[Infinity 324]

Infinity. Why is the mm town then? Why do you townread him?

He seems like frazzled noob town the whole game and has been going against the flow mainly. He seems to believe what he says.

Infinity, why is that a town response?

Scum would probably at least recognize why what they did was scummy.

[Infinity 324]

From my experience, that's not really the case. I also liked how he asked the purpose of the question...idk it just felt town to me

[Infinity 324]

Looks like something that's hard to fake for me

[Infinity 324]

Ok so I'm pretty sure scum!smart would know why he said faq2 might flip town: because he knew faq2 was town.

Even if he didn't, I think it wouldn't be simple/natural to get in the mindset where he cares about why the question was asked. That's a town mindset.

-_-

[Infinity 324]

I can't see town Infinity ignoring someone blantenly scummy either.

The fuck...?

How about you explain to me why mm is scum.

Infinity, why do you say the most active/Towniest players have wrong reads? How do you know this? How can you know we don't have right reads?

I don't

know

anything, I'm just saying the kill on BBT makes that a possibility.

[Infinity 324]

I like your plan.

I folded btw

[Infinity 324]

Man this game would be easy if town could agree on shit

[Infinity 324]

MM may not have strong reads, but he definitely has strong opinions...

I agree with the part where there's no case on MM.

[Infinity 324]

farside, what do you think of shadow?

[Infinity 324]

What are those things exactly

[Infinity 324]

Bad reasoning has already been established and certainly not a scumtell...

afaik mm always thought you were scum too so yeah

And that's the extent of your argument.

I want to know why you scumread mm on d1, otherwise you clearly just made up stuff today to justify your read where you had nothing to begin with.

[Infinity 324]

Spoiler: all your arguments from d1 for mm scum

I don't really like your reaction to that. It suggested to me you either knew or think I am town already but are suggesting me to be careful and are slightly buddying me.

I would say its scummy, but it could be just nothing. Though usually I have seen town react to this in very few limited ways some are annoyed by it and don't take it serious others take it at face value, but this is a different reaction. My gut says its scummy.

How am I exactly causing problems? My inactivity before? I wasn't into this game, I didn't know the mechanics worked for it and it didn't seem active enough to warrant my attention (which is messed up in its own way) but thats the past.

I have said I am going to be more active.

I feel like Fire only sees the game by "himself and the rest" given how he said lane was unresponsive while he hadn't answered to him, and yet (seeing as lane ninja'd me).

I don't like this for multiple reasons.
First off you suggest that I am not alligned when you say "himself" and then you call me not town but anything I have done not alignment indicative? I guess this refers to not liking me, but what does that have to do with me being "its in no way town"

You can't say that I seem like I see the game as just me and then everybody else and say I am not town. That doesn't make sense.
You saying I am third party? You saying I am town?

You basically said I am not group scum.
Why are there assumptions in this thread about Third parties if I may ask? is it based of just 11 players?

VOTE: The MM
This is the right lynch for the day folks. I can make a case if requested but most of their posts are very scummy in some way and have either bad reasoning or skewered priorities and they leak their knowledge that they have more information than the rest of us.

Its not just awkwardness and contradictions? I think you are missing the crux of my argument that they seem INFORMED.

What about mm's posts makes him look informed because I'm not seeing it. You pointed out a post where it looked like he knew you were town, why can't that just be him being naive?

His approach to me when I said I am probably scum.
His post after saying that "fire Assassin and then Everyone else" They weren't just awkward they seemed to be from the standpoint he knew I am not on anyones side.

You're telling me this is why you thought mm was scum?

[Infinity 324]

You want a quote wall, you get a quote wall.

I don't really like your reaction to that. It suggested to me you either knew or think I am town already but are suggesting me to be careful and are slightly buddying me.

I would say its scummy, but it could be just nothing. Though usually I have seen town react to this in very few limited ways some are annoyed by it and don't take it serious others take it at face value, but this is a different reaction. My gut says its scummy.

You admit it's pretty weak, I agree

How am I exactly causing problems? My inactivity before? I wasn't into this game, I didn't know the mechanics worked for it and it didn't seem active enough to warrant my attention (which is messed up in its own way) but thats the past.

I have said I am going to be more active.

I feel like Fire only sees the game by "himself and the rest" given how he said lane was unresponsive while he hadn't answered to him, and yet (seeing as lane ninja'd me).

I don't like this for multiple reasons.
First off you suggest that I am not alligned when you say "himself" and then you call me not town but anything I have done not alignment indicative? I guess this refers to not liking me, but what does that have to do with me being "its in no way town"

You can't say that I seem like I see the game as just me and then everybody else and say I am not town. That doesn't make sense.
You saying I am third party? You saying I am town?

You basically said I am not group scum.
Why are there assumptions in this thread about Third parties if I may ask? is it based of just 11 players?

I'm pretty sure this isn't even what mm was saying, I think he's saying you aren't trying to cooperate and town would try to cooperate since most players are town or something like that. Don't agree with the reasoning, but in any case it's not a reason why he's scum.

Its not just awkwardness and contradictions? I think you are missing the crux of my argument that they seem INFORMED.

Yet you still have very little evidence to show that

What about mm's posts makes him look informed because I'm not seeing it. You pointed out a post where it looked like he knew you were town, why can't that just be him being naive?

His approach to me when I said I am probably scum.
His post after saying that "fire Assassin and then Everyone else" They weren't just awkward they seemed to be from the standpoint he knew I am not on anyones side.

This is basically your entire case, two posts that could easily come from town.

Your mm read is bullshit, you're trying and failing to fabricate actual reasons why he's scum.

[Infinity 324]

I suppose you could consider what you gave reasons, but they are nowhere near enough for a townie to be convinced that someone is scum.

[Infinity 324]

Alright you're going to have to say them again, I certainly haven't seen any good reason to scumread mm. It's possible I skimmed over them cause I really just didn't see it.

[Infinity 324]

It's really not a good idea to kill me tonight.

[Infinity 324]

Ok so I really doubt fire is town, his read switch on me when he was town reading me for my push earlier isn't genuine. He's probably an SK given the read switch, but even then it doesn't make sense to kill town power -_- Not much we can do about that.

I don't know if you guys will want to lynch a claimed vig today, but I really think fire is scum; his thought processes don't make sense from a town perspective.

I will make a case for mm town later on, I looked over some of the arguments for him being scum and I just don't think those things are scum tells.

@farside re mm, having strong reasoning doesn't mean strong opinions. See his response to you as an example of what I mean.

Even if you guys really think mm is scum, we should at least wait 1 day for his tracker result.

[Infinity 324]

There's a chance he'll get a guilty, if he's scum we can try to out-WIFOM his result or something, idk

What do you think about fire's claim? Is shadow town to you by PoE now or...?

[Infinity 324]

I changed my reads a bunch, but fire was town reading me for my push and now is scum reading me for it, it just doesn't make sense.

Right now I am definitely fine with scum!mm 1v1ing a townie, but I am a little biased cause I think he's town

[Infinity 324]

I changed my reads a bunch, but fire was town reading me for my push and now is scum reading me for it, it just doesn't make sense.

Right now I am definitely fine with scum!mm 1v1ing a townie, but I am a little biased cause I think he's town

I was townreading you and now you make no sense, like your defense of MM its full of clutter that just assumes he is town, without going into what makes him town. You keep using "newb town" as a crux to the argument. You also say there is no case, when numerous people point out reasons and you outright dismiss most without touching them on any detail beyond "they are wrong". Like explain more detail on why MM is town, or take apart our arguments without outright dismisisng them.

Like your read on him makes no sense to me. It just assumes everything he does is "town".

I'm dismissing the arguments because they aren't scumtells, bad logic and not having clearly defined reads don't make someone scum, especially not if they are a noob.

Only noticing that now really doesn't seem genuine. There's literally no reason to scumread me now that there wasn't before.

Case inc

[Infinity 324]

Bet $50

[Infinity 324]

Alchemist confirmed that mm would bet all his money in that case

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: The MM
Based on the chip dumping theory and a reads list full of nulls. If you don't have any reads yet, why put up a list? Oh yeah...because it looks kinda townie.

Because it has some leanings (some are so soft they don't show up in the final results) and I'm making sure everyone keeps track of that. I'm not writing down people as scum or town this easily as y'all, that's it. Do I need to write down my tiniest leans? People can change my opinion of them in one post.

I think scum!mm would just make a more defined reads list instead of having to rely on his explanation.

Infinity. Why is the mm town then? Why do you townread him?

He seems like frazzled noob town the whole game and has been going against the flow mainly. He seems to believe what he says.

I don't like the term "frazzled" for some reason. Going against the flow is kind of in my personality, especially when the flow is dictated by other people.
Also, the only people with no reason to believe what they say are lying scum. Townies only lie for gambits, and even then that's pretty horrid.

I don't think scum!mm would have questioned my townread on him here.

Need to voice my disapproval in at least one way: VOTE: Lane

Feels town to me

This sounds like such, but my bet was short-sighted and I recognize it. I was kinda between "oh look some guy's all-in'ing and I'm sure to eat him let's f*ckin do this" and "some dumbnut's bluffing is killing the gimmick, let's stop this rite now" in my head.
I was sure to only need to take one guy's money because of my own habits when I create such game systems, which is basically me screwing myself over, but whatever. I sure hope Kappy folds, at least this entire thing will have harmed the least people possible and I still get 1k$ until some people decide it's a great idea to lynch me.

This is really towny, not seeing scum faking this thought process at all.

(To all of you who say "yay finally MM writes town or scum in a read yay", screw you.)

Not caring what other people think of him, scum would try to blend in more.

We're both being sensible. Except for now you're voting me when we should be voting MM.

And how so? You're not just thinking of brutalizing people into voting someone else without presenting evidence, are you?

Frustration with being voted for no reason looks town

Lane looks like in the middle of a meltdown that is so incredibly stupid I can't get a true read on him because he pushes for my lynch like his life depends on it. Which makes no fucking sense.

Another very town thought process, scum wouldn't care about how hard to read someone is.

Lynching me is wasting the Tracker shot. This is complete and utter town sabotage, since the Tracker shot isn't given to anyone. This entire plan is dumbnut.

Really? So you're completely writing off the possibility for the mm scum as well. Brilliant. Absolutely fucking brilliant. The mm can't possibly be scum. The only explanation is he must be mislynch bait. What the fuck? There are several reasons he should be lynched. Love how he's one of the leading wagons all day yesterday and all of a sudden hes lynch bait.

All your monies are belong to me, which ofc would make me lynch bait because scum wants the power roles dead. It's one of the few cases where

town wins nothing

. As for your several reasons I should be lynched, your dumbassery doesn't count as a reason, me having the Tracker shot is a reason NOT TO LYNCH ME, and of course I've been making the fire wagon, so you're relying too much on fire not to be scum.

The conviction here is more likely to come from town, scum would try to just try to make better arguments to convince people instead of trying to fake a rage fit.

1060 just makes no sense from a scum perspective, though it is obviously confirmation biased and biased from personal issues that mm has with FA.

Basically MM says what he thinks and doesn't care about what other people think. His thoughts and emotions are towny and would be very hard to fake. I don't see anything mm does as scum-motivated, except maybe that he doesn't give clearly defined reads.

[Infinity 324]

Waiting on the mm to bet 500

In the end, it's but a few dollars but lane really wants to see it, so go ahead and laugh at how puny my 500$ actually are like.

Raise $500

Now shut up and take my money.

Seriously, you just gave away your money?

If you guys think this is scum I don't even

Fold

[Infinity 324]

I could also see RC as scum btw, I don't remember any of his posts since I stopped scumreading him d1 and that's probably a bad thing.

[Infinity 324]

Are you seriously going to make me fullclaim dude -_-

[Infinity 324]

You realize you have no chance of winning if you shoot me, mafia will just destroy everyone...

[Infinity 324]

Fuck you dude, you're an SK and you're not even playing to your wincon.

I'm an odd-night cop with an inno on wingback.

[Infinity 324]

Fuck me, what if the whole thing is a mafia gambit

[Infinity 324]

I really shouldn't have claimed there

[Infinity 324]

I am voting you -_-

There was probably a doc, that would also explain why some of the more active/obvtown players didn't die

[Infinity 324]

Ughh this is so stupid

Can we please just lynch fire

[Infinity 324]

Explain to me why mm just gave away all his money as scum when he had an easy out not to.

[Infinity 324]

It's so fucking stupid that you guys want my reasoning for why mm is town and then when I give it you guys just ignore it.

[Infinity 324]

On the next hand, I want the mm to bet 300. He should have no problem with this, because if he doesn't have that much money, it can't go through.

If a player attempts to bet more than they have, it would still go through, it would just add however much they have left to the pot (putting them all in) and set the amount to call to that amount (if it was lower than that amount).

I seriously doubt scum would give away all their money unless they absolutely had to.

[Infinity 324]

I suspected the slot cause I looked at persivul's ISO again

Will respond to your response later but it would be helpful if you used quotes

MM killing BBT would makes sense, except for the fact that mm is clearly town. Also a lot of people thought mm was scum, not just BBT.

PEdit: that RC comment pings my gut

[Infinity 324]

Can someone give me the tdlr of what I missed so far?
Everytime I think of this game and the shitty attitude from rc I feel a need to do something anti town and be a royal bitch.

I claimed odd-night cop with an inno on wingback.
I made a case on why mm is town, most people ignored it
Wingback continued his catchup
MM bet all his money when he absolutely didn't have to

[Infinity 324]

You seem to know a lot about what scum!mm would do... Scum wouldn't question a townread? Are you new here? You think scum don't question townreads? What a joke.

Most scum wouldn't want to question town reads them, they'd just take it and be happy.

Scum make more defined reads list, and don't fencesit? Town people normally have null reads on everyone. No.

Scum don't do obvious things that draw suspicion to themselves like making a reads list of all nulls.

That thought process? That's not a town thought process. Anyone can have that thought process of any alignment! So if course it doesn't feel fake.

I don't know what you're referring to

Scum try to blend in more. Id say considering you have no idea what the mm is all about, you can't say that. There are plenty of scum that don't try to blend in

Well most scum do try to blend in, especially scum that aren't comfortable with site meta.

Pedit, he did absolutely have to or it was an outright scum claim

Are you kidding me? He literally gave away all his money to possible scum...

You're confirmation biased as fuck

[Infinity 324]

Getting uneasy with potential scum shadow taking all of mm's money. Reads list now, shadow.

[Infinity 324]

Honestly, it would do me a favor, Infinity. I'm getting tired of the sniveling comments from you, farside and Wingback. Wingback is backing it up, to be fair, but no one wants to dredge up old arguments to refight. No one really cares. So it would do me a favor to see this game waste energy voting me after all I've done D1.

What?

[Infinity 324]

I ISO'd persivul during the night and had some qualms about the slot, it didn't actually do much.

Wasn't sure about the second scum when faq2 flipped town.

I think I crumbed the result at daystart

If you still think mm is scum after that bet you're just being stubborn at this point.

[Infinity 324]

Scum loses the ability to get more power roles, and lets town get power roles lol

[Infinity 324]

I wouldn't mind Infinity being shot tonight.

Missed this, seriously dude?

[Infinity 324]

Scum loses the ability to get more power roles, and lets town get power roles lol

Giving away money is stupid either way, but it hurts scum more because they know it's going to go to town (or it probably is)

Seriously what kind of town is this

[Infinity 324]

Ok Infinity, imagine you're in MM's place and you're scum. How do you justify not giving away that money?
And further, what is the likelihood that that $200-something that you lose will either not enable you to buy a power you otherwise could buy or enable a town player to buy a power that makes a difference in the game?

I would say I want to potentially get another power role, and that I'm scared of scum getting a power role.

Not sure how much money mm had though

Lane I literally answered what scum would gain in the next post. They could get another power role themselves and potentially prevent town from getting one. It's pretty simple...

[Infinity 324]

Well that makes it less of a deal, but still.

Scum gain some town cred, I doubt mm would see that as worth it.

[Infinity 324]

Well that makes it less of a deal, but still.

Less of a big deal*

[Infinity 324]

Or you can just not do that and have an easy out

[Infinity 324]

Well that's cause your conf biased as fuck

Giving away $200 is a pretty big deal, I wouldn't have done it in town!mm's position but as scum!mm it makes no sense.

[Infinity 324]

You were supposedly convinced I was scum...

My gut says town mm could cave in to pressure with that mental state.

[Infinity 324]

I love how you're putting words I my mouth and still not giving a reads list after I asked for it multiple times. I never said you were scum, I said I thought you could be scum. Come on dude, play the game.

PRs are still PRs no matter what night they can get used on.

[Infinity 324]

Why do scum all of a sudden care about pr's? The mm is alive because scum supposedly don't care about pr's. But now you can't believe they'd give 200 away?

If you guys get your way and lynch mm, his PR won't matter.

[Infinity 324]

I can't count the number of times I was spectating a game and correctly identified a lynch wagon as town when everyone thought it was scum.

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I'm wrong sometimes, but rarely on noobs, and rarely on slots under pressure. I can't think of an example off the top of my head.

Just because 4 people say someone is scum for reasons that aren't scum tells in my experience doesn't mean shit.

[Infinity 324]

That depends whether they can lynch the power role. Overall I'd say 25% of the time, but that's only because most PR's are not that hard to confirm and/or relatively strong. A 1-shot tracker who's mislynch bait is not going to be NKed.

[Infinity 324]

I love how you're putting words I my mouth and still not giving a reads list after I asked for it multiple times. I never said you were scum, I said I thought you could be scum. Come on dude, play the game.

PRs are still PRs no matter what night they can get used on.

What makes you think I "could" be scum ?

I have a town lean on lane and farside is nullish town.
Scum lean on MM and RC.
FA is prob town to, but I can't really say.
It doesn't make sense for town FA to claim vig when he was no under pressure what so ever.
If scum have a roleblocker or jailkeeper or any such role which prevents FA from shooting they'll keep doing that to him to wifom us or just hope he shoots a town or just kill him off.
It also could be scum gambit between you and FA, something you planned at night to clear whoever comes out of that alive for the rest of the game.

You're nullish scum for me.

Smart and wingback are null.

You could be scum mainly be PoE, I have a lot of town reads and a clear.

Explain reads on me and RC please.

Doesn't make sense for fire to claim there as town either...

I'm going to ISO RC again, I don't like how he popped I and said the game became "interesting" and then popped out.

[Infinity 324]

Godfather is explicitly non-normal.

[Infinity 324]

Oh yeah I'm dumb

But smart is right, godfather is just really annoying

There's a list of all normal roles here

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

Can you explain your reads on RC and me please, I don't like having to repeat over and over to get people to do stuff. Thanks

[Infinity 324]

I don't know what to tell you about mm. Ok, he has been illogical at times. Ok, he doesn't have very many strong reads. But his thought processes and play don't make sense from scum.

[Infinity 324]

I'm not 100% set on The MM as a scumread. I've got three strong townreads and the rest of the pool {The MM, RedCoyote, Something_Smart, Shadow_step, and Fire Assassin} I'm still trying to decide where the scum are although RedCoyote and The MM stuck out to me the most. Eleven players make it a bit more difficult as I'm not entirely sure what I'm looking for: two scum, three scum, two scum and a traitor, two scum and an SK? There have been a few of the most recent posts that made me second-guess my scumread on MM, that and just how hard he's trying even under intense pressure. But I can see some reason to townread nearly everyone else too. Who are your top scumreads at this point?

I understand the part about having too many town reads. I think fire is scum because it doesn't look like he has actual reasoning to back up his stances. I am also looking at RC and shadow because of PoE, rn I think RC is slightly scummier because I had a weak town read on qubixes, but I need to ISO him again.

farside, I understand if you don't want to just sheep me on mm, but I'm just saying I'm not going to just sheep you given my accuracy at reading noobs and slots under pressure and my experience with the (non) scumtells people are using.

PEdit: hmm, that's interesting. I hope the replacement is good at obvtowning...

[Infinity 324]

ISOd RC and shadow, and I think farside is right about a lot of it.

I agree that RC is not really scumhunting a ton or taking a lot of stances, but something tells me his emotions are genuine. He words his posts carefully, but I still think that's more playstyle than anything. So I guess I'm still undecided on that slot. Still have to read over those games.

shadow seems to be very reluctant to give/explain his reads, and I think this could come from noob scum that isn't very confident. He posts more than I previously thought, but like farside said, he seems to just throw out questions and statements with not a whole lot of purpose behind them.

Since fire probably isn't getting lynched today, I'm doing this.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: shadow

[Infinity 324]

shadow, you seriously need to explain your reads. All of them.

[Infinity 324]

@MM: What about Infinity's defense of you could not be scum whiteknighting you for towncred after you die?

I'm confused by how Infinity and farside both cite an excellent newb reading record (ftr, mind is terrible and that's why I keep going back and forth on MM) yet arrive at a different conclusion regarding MM. It makes me question Infinity calling MM obv!newbtown in particular.

I think there's one scum in <farside, RC>.

Just a quick silly moment in regards to this.
If I'm correct I'm the ultimate best read of newbs.
If Infinity is correct he getsaid that label.

Hehe, bring it on

[Infinity 324]

You mean the vote on shadow? I gave reasons why I think he's scum (though PoE does factor into it)

[Infinity 324]

I don't like how he doesn't take a stance on the matter, the godfather part is NAI.

[Infinity 324]

That's a sad vote count...

Do more people want to get onto RC, shadow, or fire?

[Infinity 324]

Ok a lot of stuff on this page.

You mean the vote on shadow? I gave reasons why I think he's scum (though PoE does factor into it)

I'd love to see what those reasons are, the only one is you've given so far is "POE".

All your cases are bloody stupid, this is newb scum so he is scum, this is newb town so he is town. Pure bs

You're scum because you don't take stances on anything, didn't give reads until prompted and are not explaining those reads. You ask questions that don't really get anywhere in terms of scumhunting.

Why? If Infinity is illogically defending MM, shouldn't that make you want to lynch Infinity as opposed to MM? From your POV, either he would either be scum defending a partner or scum defending town so why would it make you want to lynch MM more? Unless you think Infinity is town defending scum in which case, his defense shouldn't affect your read on MM.

By the way, why are you scumreading MM in the first place? The only thing I found was Post 819 and you agreeing with Lane's point in Post 910 after he questioned you about it. That doesn't look like a strong enough read for you to conf-bias Infinity's defense as making MM more scummy. What do you think of MM's response to that point?

MM

-

Infinity

Most likely, scum infinity is defending scum MM because MM has a strong PR.

MM

-

Infinity

Less likely, town infinity is defending scum MM, because he is conf biased, maybe arrogance plays a part in this. Refusal to keep an open mind and just illogicaly defending MM, without any solid reason. Just saying he is newb town......WTF?
From MM's post it's very clear that he is hard town reading Infinity as well, only because Infinity is town reading him. That's an awful reason to town read anyone. He doesn't have a problem with Infinity buddying with him so much for no reason whatsoever. I can't imagine a town MM being okay with that.

MM

-

Infinty

least likely, it doesn't make sense for scum infinity to white knight a town player who is scum read by majority of the players, he will get lynched sooner or later and scum infinity doesn't get much(if any) town creds after the MM flip. I don't see much scum motivation behind this.

Which is why I'd rather lynch MM today.

Actually, MM did give a legit reason to townread me, and it looked a lot like the reasoning you gave for the last example.

Infinity feels a bit too nice to me, white-knighting and whatnot, but he's still my top townread because I doubt he's scum hiding behind that to make a friend of me: that wouldn't be an effective move to make for scum.

shadow, you seriously need to explain your reads. All of them.

I'm not gonna make something up to please you. If you have a problem with my reasons that's your issue not mine.

That's funny, because I don't see any reasons at all...

You (Farside) have been tunneling The MM for a majority of D2. The fact that you so effortlessly throw Shadow_step into your scumreads without putting any real effort to read him makes me think my townreads are all wrong and you could be scum. If you genuinely were trying to read them, you'd be taking into account Qubixes' posts and not just make an easy push on Shadow for his low engagement.

What do you think about me essentially doing the same thing

I also have some very serious doubts about The MM flipping scum. His latest posts have been so over-the-top levels of ridiculously frustrated posting, and I think he responded adequately to my push on him.

Someone gets it....

VOTE: Shadow_step

Eyy let's do it

Wingback doesn't have to be his partner. Scum infinity can easily claim that he has an innocent on any player and in this case Wingback who has had a town read on him.
Infinity could just be pocketing Wingback .

Yes but in that scenario Wingback is still town.

My point is, Wingback is only NOT town if Infinity and Wingback are partners. Since I find that scenario very unlikely, we can assume that Wingback is town.

Fair point, or Infinity could be telling the truth and Wingback could be a godfather.

Wingback doesn't have to be his partner. Scum infinity can easily claim that he has an innocent on any player and in this case Wingback who has had a town read on him.
Infinity could just be pocketing Wingback .

shadow, you seriously need to explain your reads. All of them.

I'm not gonna make something up to please you. If you have a problem with my reasons that's your issue not mine.

Loving how Infinity just calls me scum without presenting a case of any sort.

This is all in regards to shadow throwing shade.
The fake town tell towards lane, throwing shade towards Infinity claim or even wingback being a gf.

Great, when did being open minded become throwing shade?

But you don't even take a stance on what you think is the most likely....

Hey infinity: I see you around.
Do you think it's odd that Lane doesn't find anything wrong with RC or see anything scummy about him?

Lane I've written off as town because he does something I've never seen scum fake: posts exactly what comes to his mind. As scum, this would be a very bad strategy, not to mention he would say a lot more scummy things.

Plus RC isn't exactly the scummiest player here.

[Infinity 324]

If you failed to notice I replaced in at the end of day 1. I make reads off of interacting with players.
You have no case you just have an opinion on something, you're vote is completely opportunistic and you're trying to create a wagon on me to save your buddy MM

Ok, but you seemed to have the reads since you gave them to me eventually. You never said you did have good reads.

If you have reads, you should have reasons for the reads. I want you to give those reasons.

Give an example of a way you tried to interact with someone to try and determine their alignment.

And wtf is this stance thing about?
What do you want me to do vote wingback because there is a possibility that he could be a godfather?

I want you to give an opinion on which case in the most likely.

[Infinity 324]

SS and Fire is town-town, who else is going to have the balls to say this?

What in their interactions makes you think that ?

This kind of question requires a real fleshed out response that I'm not in the position to do it justice at this time. How deep do you want me to get? Are you willing to hear me out with an open mind, or are you just asking this to be asking it?

I want to know why you arrived to that conclusion. I haven't played too many games so far on this site, but when "A" has said X and Y are t vs t, "A" has more often than not been scum.
I've seen this done a lot for pre flip town credit especially the lynch is between X and Y.

I have given reasons as to why I am scum reading RC.
Perhaps if you read the thread properly.

@Infinity ^

And post 1205 covers why I'm scum reading you, it's basically your illogical defense of MM .

I don't get why you want to put it all in one post when it is quite obvious from NY posts what the reasons are.

I feel you think I'm a soft target and you want me to slip so that you can tunnel on me until you get me lynched.

The post you quoted here is the only thing I can find in your ISO regarding your read on RC.

Also I made a case on why mm is town, did that change anything?

For someone who accuses me of not having reasons these are weak as hell.

[Infinity 324]

Infinty you are going to have to trust me and move to vote rc please

I don't see it. I still need to look at those games you linked but in this game I'm not seeing anything RC did that's scummier than shadow, and I see a bunch of things that I feel are towny, this is an example.

Code: Select all

A townbloc of me, farside, Infinity and lane ... <3 <3 <3...

zzz...


zzz...

Huh? Oh, sorry, I was dreaming for a second.

You can call it gut I guess.

Not really seeing a RC/shadow team, but I still understand what you are saying about RC's play and I will take a good hard look at him if shadow flips town.

[Infinity 324]

What do you think about me essentially doing the same thing

How were you doing the same thing? You were townreading The MM all along. My issue with Farside is that she went through ISOs and came up with The MM and Shadow_step as partners. I think that's unlikely based on how Qubixes pushed MM. But it does make sense if Farside was scum throwing in two easy targets together in her scumpile (or bussing Shadow/RedCoyote).

I disagree, but ok. I thought you meant giving a scumread on shadow not considering qubixes' play, which I basically did.

Those are not reasons, you just say he is newb town and then whatever he posts you are conf biased into thinking that it is town behaviour.

Him throwing all his money in the pot means nothing, he could have a very good hand, did that come to your mind ?
Why would scum care about money now?
He has already bought tracker hence denying town the best available PR.
The next best thing he can buy is too expensive and he'll probably never have that much money anyway so it doesn't matter that he all ined. It's completely NAI.

Am I conf biased or scum, which is it?

There are still some useful PRs he could potentially buy...

The main thing is that I don't think mm would give money to someone he knows is town. Unless he's your buddy, I guess.

I have my crazy hat theory.

Rc/mm/lane.

Yes I know mm voted lane and there was lane pushing mm.
But as crazy as it sound, shudders, what if faq2 was right about mm/lane doing the betting on purpose.
I'll chew on it for a bit, while I note lane dodged my question about RC again.

Whenever I start seriously considering the possibility of farside scum, posts like these make me stop.

[Infinity 324]

The smiley face wasn't meant to be there lol

[Infinity 324]

Can we stop this TvT nonsense -_-

[Infinity 324]

Literally the two most obvtown players in this game are calling each other scum. Let's just lynch shadow.

[Infinity 324]

Ok let's talk about it. What scummy things has RC done that shadow hasn't?

[Infinity 324]

We need 1 person other than wingback

[Infinity 324]

What's your read on shadow atm

[Infinity 324]

shadow has given views.

I kinda see what you mean, but this part is a stretch

[Infinity 324]

I agree what you said about RC is scummy, but it's just occasional things like what I quoted in 1243 that makes me go ehhh

I also think this is an opportunistic vote and not a bus

Rc is scum, we lynch him and fire can shoot mm.

I'm down with this actually

VOTE: RC

Still need to look at those games though

[Infinity 324]

Ugh I hate when I point out a post that I think is town and then someone else thinks I'm silly and I have no way to explain it other than it just looks town to me :/

[Infinity 324]

He looks more calculating to me, but why would he say that if he was scum?? Maybe he was trying extra hard not to look calculating and thought he was succeeding but he wasn't?

[Infinity 324]

Ok you convinced me.

I read the games you linked, and you're right that RC gives a lot fewer solid stances as scum, like what he's doing in this game.

RC's scumminess is backed up by meta, where I guess shadow could just be bad town.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RC

If RC flips town, we should be lynching shadow cause I'm pretty sure one of them is scum anyway

[Infinity 324]

Wait a sec I was looking through and realized both the games that farside linked are scum!RC games