Being too cautious in RVS is scummy.
VOTE: infinity
Yes, I wanted to see how people would react.In post 25, Something_Smart wrote:Pedit: infinity are you copying ranger? if so why are you at the bottom?
We still want players that are more likely to be town to get more money...In post 54, lane0168 wrote:I wouldn't get off a lynch that I was pushing for the chance of a scum person taking my spot. That's ridiculous. If you think a person in the wagon is scum, then they should be the wagon. Terrible planIn post 24, Infinity 324 wrote:{quibixes, MoI}
{s_s, lane}
{mm, persivul}
{infinity}
I like s_s's plan, you could threaten to hammer the person if people refuse to switch.
Forced line (though it's worth mentioning that town afraid of getting lynched can often come off as forced)In post 56, lane0168 wrote:A mislynch to verify this being completely false isn't the worst way to start out the game. However you'll change your mind on due timeIn post 42, Persivul wrote:So why did you bet all your money?In post 40, lane0168 wrote:I won't win lol
Could be scum dumping money to each other so they can buy out one of the bigger PRs early.
mod, did scum have pre-game talk? Do they have day talk?
This is even more forced, and doesn't add anything new to the discussion. I like this vote better.In post 61, The MM wrote:This is the only option that has a hint of credibility to me. Honestly, town wouldn't give away their monies at random like that.In post 58, Persivul wrote:Unless your scum buddy told you he had a strong hand.In post 57, lane0168 wrote:And even if that was my plan to give my money away, magna, chances are it goes to town.Given the abilities in play, Scum would LOVE to get these 1250$ abilities. Especially a Vengeful since they get to one-shot a Townie for free, meaning scum don't really lose momentum from it.MagnaofIllusion wrote:I find it suspect that you just assumed an immediate All-In would not possibly get called. Especially given you told Pers "I'm not going to win". If anyone calls then odds are overwhelming that one person ends up with $1,000 plus in their bankroll immediately. Which if they are scum is not good for Town.In post 53, lane0168 wrote:@magna. I'm not sure I understand the question. I didn't want to consolidate money into anyone's hands but my own. I didn't expect anyone to call. I want money to get the benefits of getting money. So why am I scummy again?
I could certainly see a pre-game scenario where it was decided to try to consolidate money on one scum via an All-in and scum counterclaim.
TL;DR Version: Lane, you just made the scummiest move so far, and not just because it's the only big one.
Then you would just hammer if people refused to switch, you wouldn't really lose anything.In post 62, RedCoyote wrote:In post 24, Infinity 324 wrote:{quibixes, MoI}
{s_s, lane}
{mm, persivul}
{infinity}
I like s_s's plan, you could threaten to hammer the person if people refuse to switch.
You can threat all you want, but you need to carry weight behind said threat. Otherwise, it's meaningless. I'm not committing to voting anyone over something like this.
I agree with this, lane looks impulsive and a little selfish but almost too obviously so to be scum.I really like this question and thought process. I hadn't considered any money shenanigans, but it makes sense that the scum may want to pool their money together under one person if they can, especially given how everything costs more than $500.
Does this necessarily point to lane as scum though? I'm thinking no. lane strikes me as the impulsive type. I don't get the feeling that his bet was part of a gambit, but it's something to still consider going forward.
Any reason for this?I'm electing not to vote at this time.
lolIn post 69, MagnaofIllusion wrote:zero scum game
It would've been scummier had you repeated the same reasons, but I still thought it was weird that I said "what do you think about mm" and you said "oh he's scum I'll vote him"In post 83, lane0168 wrote:What's wrong with voting for different reasons than you?
Ok, just noticed your join date. Early in day 1, people often try to exaggerate little things to get discussion going and put pressure on people. This may be what you're pointing out as "taking too many things at face value". I will tell you thatIn post 97, The MM wrote:Because it has some leanings (some are so soft they don't show up in the final results) and I'm making sure everyone keeps track of that. I'm not writing down people as scum or town this easily as y'all, that's it. Do I need to write down my tiniest leans? People can change my opinion of them in one post.In post 93, Persivul wrote:VOTE: The MM
Based on the chip dumping theory and a reads list full of nulls. If you don't have any reads yet, why put up a list? Oh yeah...because it looks kinda townie.Your votes for me basically say I'm transparent scum, guys; which would mean I'm bad. I'm not.lane0168 wrote:The mm, who said you were playing badly? I must've missed that. And why is everyone single one of your reads null?
My reads are null with very soft leans in case you can read and spot them.What idea? The chip-dumping theory? Just because I'm confident in my hand doesn't mean I'm scum, otherwise that would mean I was just collecting lane's monies. Besides, lane claimed to have done that with no coordination, so what do you think are the odds of the guy with the nuts be town? Just down to luck, out of the 10 remaning, odds are 2 or 3 are scum, making it like 75% chance I'm town.lane0168 wrote:Who is scum just following Persivul's idea? I'll find you. Unless it's just mm and only mm
Just saying, people here take too many things at face value.
Apparently some of you have already played each other and thus know each other a bunch, but I didn't. That means I can't go full gung-ho with gut-based or entirely reason-based reads because I don't know how you act at all.
Seems to me, though, that you are not even trying and draw conclusions and vote me at the drop of a hat. A day phase is 2 weeks, we could at least use the time.
Ok, just noticed your join date. Early in day 1, people often try to exaggerate little things to get discussion going and put pressure on people. This may be what you're pointing out as "taking too many things at face value". I will tell you thatIn post 97, The MM wrote:Because it has some leanings (some are so soft they don't show up in the final results) and I'm making sure everyone keeps track of that. I'm not writing down people as scum or town this easily as y'all, that's it. Do I need to write down my tiniest leans? People can change my opinion of them in one post.In post 93, Persivul wrote:VOTE: The MM
Based on the chip dumping theory and a reads list full of nulls. If you don't have any reads yet, why put up a list? Oh yeah...because it looks kinda townie.Your votes for me basically say I'm transparent scum, guys; which would mean I'm bad. I'm not.lane0168 wrote:The mm, who said you were playing badly? I must've missed that. And why is everyone single one of your reads null?
My reads are null with very soft leans in case you can read and spot them.What idea? The chip-dumping theory? Just because I'm confident in my hand doesn't mean I'm scum, otherwise that would mean I was just collecting lane's monies. Besides, lane claimed to have done that with no coordination, so what do you think are the odds of the guy with the nuts be town? Just down to luck, out of the 10 remaning, odds are 2 or 3 are scum, making it like 75% chance I'm town.lane0168 wrote:Who is scum just following Persivul's idea? I'll find you. Unless it's just mm and only mm
Just saying, people here take too many things at face value.
Apparently some of you have already played each other and thus know each other a bunch, but I didn't. That means I can't go full gung-ho with gut-based or entirely reason-based reads because I don't know how you act at all.
Seems to me, though, that you are not even trying and draw conclusions and vote me at the drop of a hat. A day phase is 2 weeks, we could at least use the time.
This is just me being dumb, I thought if someone stated intent to hammer on the person about to the lynched then somehow that would motivate the scummier players to get off the wagon and let townier players on. Though, some may agree if it meant their top scumread(s) got off the wagon as well.In post 106, RedCoyote wrote:S_S says that we should force the scummy players off of a wagon. The only way to "force" players off would be to vote them. Therefore, it's your contention that you could dismantle the entire wagon on one player and move it to another player? You don't think there would be any issues in doing that?Infinity 63 wrote:Then you would just hammer if people refused to switch, you wouldn't really lose anything.
At first I voted you because you were my most active null read and I wanted to see your response, but this comes off as quite forced, as scum often want specific reason they are being scumread so they can defend themselves. I like my vote where it is.Infinity, is there something I'm supposed to respond to in 101? You voting me in that post seems random.
1. No particular reason, was just to get discussion going and I wanted another opinion on the postIn post 107, MagnaofIllusion wrote:You can read below but this bring up two questions –In post 70, Infinity 324 wrote:What did you think about RC's post in terms of his alignment?
1. Why did you specifically ask me?
2. You post before this seems to not be drawing the same read I am. Why is that? I see your later vote but that vote is basically naked and nothing in your ISO says “I suspect RC” to my eyes.
It felt like a natural response, that's itPlease elaborate on what exactly was his Townie reaction.In post 103, Infinity 324 wrote:Not many people responded to my random reads list, but s_s responded in a towny way.
I liked your theory in 16. Theory discussion can be used as an excuse to avoid read discussion, but it didn't really feel like you were doing that given your scumhunt-y 45. You can call it a gut read, I guess.In post 120, Something_Smart wrote:I would like elaboration on this, it sounds rather generic.In post 63, Infinity 324 wrote:s_s - town: He seems to be genuinely trying to figure stuff out.
This is exactly what I'm talking about; I think noobscum would be more careful than this, especially given he seems to have a careful personality.In post 139, qubixes wrote:The admissions of trying to look town, being rash with your bets don't make me feel better either.
This kind of implies that they can't both be town, why?At the moment I don't think lane and MM are team mates with their interaction outside the poker mini-game. And if they're not, I think lane is more likely than not town (if he has the bad hand he says he has), because I don't think scum would take that big of a risk with a bad hand, unless they have a partner with a very strong hand to back it up.
Yes, still the gut read.In post 188, Something_Smart wrote: Infinity, are you still townreading Persivul?
I actually thought his reasoning for voting MM was pretty weak (though admittely fine for a page 5 vote). If mm flipped town, how would that change your read on RC?In post 216, Persivul wrote:Regarding red cameltoe: He comes across as somewhat stilted, but his argument and vote on MM seems reasonable. He null- then town-read Lane despite my having paired them together, so he wasn't just sheeping.
You said something was a blatant rolefish, sounds like you think he's scum.In post 240, FA_Q2 wrote:Why vote persivul?In post 231, Infinity 324 wrote:You have any other reads? Why vote lane over persivul?
I meant that their posts and thoughts look town to meIn post 250, Infinity 324 wrote:Based on play alone.
You certainly have to generate content to scum hunt, but there's a difference between trying to scum hunt and trying to generate content, and I feel like you are doing the latter.In post 262, RedCoyote wrote:I don't understand how one may scumhunt without "generating content" (defined by me as engaging people, asking questions, and answering questions).
You seem to be more calculated as opposed to aggressive this game, can you explain that?As far as your reasons, going off of 135, you seem to be calling my posts "forced". Well, they kind of are, and, as I often have to begrudgingly admit (I say begrudgingly because it generally gets me in trouble even though it's true), I often do have to "force" myself when I draw town. I don't really enjoy playing town. Indeed, I only play Mafia for the opportunities to play as scum. Paradoxically, I tend to draw a lot of negative attention as town due to being more aggressive and devil-may-care with my posts. As scum, I tend to be much more muted and calculated.
This is a good point.In post 267, qubixes wrote:I think there is one big problem with a good hand going all-in first. The hands are shown and calling all-in with a bad hand is very suspicious.
Well the careful part has a lot to do with how you word your posts. Pushing the biggest wagon part is pretty NAI, though I agree you have given strong reads.In post 271, RedCoyote wrote:I think consciously promoting a leading wagon and giving out strong, unequivocal reads is fairly aggressive, certainly moreso than simply reacting to votes or criticism on me. I wouldn't characterize it as scheming or calculating given the fact that I'm unabashedly putting myself out there, not doing what I think will get me to survive longer, but doing what I think will help the town more.
What? I was talking about MoI's stretchy logic being explained by confirmation bias or trying to explain a gut read as opposed to MoI being scum.I don't see how you can contort my position on MoI as "confirmation bias" or "gut" when, first, I'm not voting him nor planning to do so at this time, second, I have not advocated or stumped for scumMoI, only pointed out what I found interesting and anti-town, and third, explained with some detail as to why I disliked some of MoI's arguments (in other words, if I am giving you rationale, doesn't that necessarily mean I'mnotrelying on "gut"?).
That's a fair point, a lot of my townread on him comes down to gut.In post 287, lane0168 wrote:I may not be right about the mm, infinity, but I find the over explaining something I think scum would do. People didn't ask him to keep explaining why he called early despite reasons for waiting. But throughout his posts he kept coming up with new reasons for why he did it. I don't like it.
Ok, makes senseIn post 288, Something_Smart wrote:The only one that actually did was the response to 261. (I originally disliked 264 but that changed once I realized I misunderstood it.) Anyway, throughout the catchup I tried to call each post like I saw it, independent of my thoughts on the player. When I said you were probably town, that was summing up all my thoughts on all your posts. Right now I'm thinking you're the type of town player whom my gut tells me to scumread. (SirCakez, Firebringer, itlepip are other examples)In post 285, Infinity 324 wrote:s_s, a lot of things in that post seem to suggest I'm scum, why do you think I'm town?
The meta is actually what I was talking about, I was wondering why you called him scum just for using a tell you don't agree with.In post 290, FA_Q2 wrote: He does not engage directly with the charge - rather he tries to attack me with a BS meta charge.
This is all pretty NAI. Why can't town have just forgot about you until you started posting? Why don't you consider the fact that persivul might've thought the "rolefishing" question useful for scumhunting purposes? Why can't his refusal to respond just be arrogance?The timing there is extremely suspect (didn't have any problem with my activity before then), he does not actually go into my meta at all, uses activity as a meta tell which is asinine to start with and ultimately sidesteps the original issue to begin with using that charge. He also tried to cover his fishing with the statement that his choices were obvious not even giving credence to the fact that outing the decisions made tells scum exactly what powers he has and how much money he has remaining. For instance, should he say he was going to purchase the first ability then he does not present any real threat to scum but if he saves that cash for the last one there is a chance that they may want to take him out to prevent that purchase. IOW, rather than get into why his query was toxic to town he attacks immediately and brushes off the fact that town gains no useful information with the question but scum gains tons. If he were town then he would have been genuinely concerned with why I thought such information would be a bad idea to share. There was zero of that.
Doing this only after questioned on it feels forced.The more I think about it the more I want a Persivul lynch before a Lane lynch.
VOTE: Persivul
Lane can wait till tomorrow.
DafuqIn post 361, MagnaofIllusion wrote:I’ll state again – I was 1 of 1 (100%, small sample size aside) in reading him as scum when he was. I was 1 of 4 (25%) reading him as Town when he was. But you are just tossing aside the fact I did read him as scum successfully and saying “Whelp, he read him wrong when RC was Town often enough that RC must be Town” which is frankly a stupid conclusion.
No, but you might use your past experience with a player to help determine whether they are scum in the first place and/or pursure them with less convinction.How many games have you been wrong about players? Does that mean you should not pursue them in the future if you think they are scum?
I don't know yet. If there has to be scum on the wagon, I would guess BBT, but it could definitely be all misguided town.Also – given your strong Town read on MM what do you think of the players on his wagon as it stands now? You think Lane is Town. For reference -
In post 360, Alchemist21 wrote:MM(4): lane, Red Coyote, BBT, Qubixes
In post 377, Something_Smart wrote:@Infinity: you mentioned that MoI had made some towny posts. Can you direct me to them?
I know scum can fake confbias cases, but they rarely actually do in my experience and MoI's push doesn't look like that. It's funny you say the MM defense is contrived, because I agree with it quite a bit.In post 382, Something_Smart wrote: I definitely disagree that scum can't make terrible cases that look like confbias. I've been on both ends of forceful cases by scum on town that were weak at best. I think his defense of MM is contrived and could possibly be partner defending (one reason why I want an MoI flip today), and I agree that his thoughts on RC don't seem real.
And I also don't get this logic.In post 398, lane0168 wrote:It feels like both moi and fa_q2 would do anything not to vote the mm. And I don't like that
I just thought it was strange that you didn't give many reasons for each and that you seemed to forget each scumread when you unvoted. I was gonna ask you for a reads list but...In post 421, Persivul wrote:I've had 4 votes, 1 in RVS.In post 418, Infinity 324 wrote:I looked at persivul's iso and it contains a lot of votes changing around without a lot of explanations or reads. Don't think his vote on faq2 is a bus though.
I checked your ISO. You've had 4 votes, 1 in RVS.
Why do you characterize my ISO as having "a lot of votes changing around"?
That, and I also think this particular replace out was town because it was driven by frustration in what he thought was restriction in his scumhunting. We'll see.In post 445, Fire Assassin wrote:Replacing out is a NAI, but everything up to it was very more townlike i would have to say. He could have easily just not wanted to deal with me given our conflicting natures. I have gotten angry before and wanted to replace out as scum before so I should know. I actually kind of think he might be just angry in general and this burst the bubble, but that is personal speculation that has no business in a mafia game.In post 436, Infinity 324 wrote:The replace out itself I think is town though.
In post 450, Fire Assassin wrote:VOTE: The MM
This is the right lynch for the day folks. I can make a case if requested but most of their posts are very scummy in some way and have either bad reasoning or skewered priorities and they leak their knowledge that they have more information than the rest of us.
And how exactly would him being scum give him extra information about how you aren't on anyone's side?In post 464, Fire Assassin wrote:he knew I am not on anyones side.