[Mini 1835] - Everything Is A Lie Mafia 4 (Abandoned)

[The Counsel]

In every society some men are born to rule, and some to advise.

The Counsel greets you all, travellers.

[The Counsel]

VOTE: The Counsel

For having more votes than us.

Are you scared child?

VOTE: Leather and Lace

[The Counsel]

Blessed is he who expects nothing, for he shall never be disappointed.

Your concern is understandable but your logic is flawed as you can't judge something based on one example; especially when its not even in this moderator's meta. I'm pretty sure this mod won't make the game unwinnable for any alignments, like the way you described, even if its bastard at this rate.

For insuring that; The Counsel promises to never put down a hammer vote or to follow any voting restriction players decide.

[The Counsel]

We have to dare to be ourselves, however frightening or strange that self may prove to be.

The counsel has a voice of it's own. We assure you that we are an independent unit representing the will of the people. The very essence of this here game. Democracy.

Recently a traveler tried to mess with the vote(s) of Counsel using a private ability. Be aware that there is a HUGE bounty on this traveler's head. This is the only voice of counsel and only the

public votes

that are submitted from this account are approved by us.

[The Counsel]

This account vote and voice is in hands of town but there is a someone else who can put invisible votes using the name of us (hence the second vote). We know the identity of this man cause somehow we watched him doing it; This information will be published if a majority of players request for it.

We confirm that the counsel has no alignment by its own. but if it can be vigged or lynched (that Is not a part of my knowledge) town will loose one vote - hence mafia will have an easier life - , We will loose a way for communicating (to hint what we know without outing ourselves) and another utility; while you won't get any information out of the flip as the counsel is just a proxy account and has no alignment on its own.

[The Counsel]

Democracy is a part of this Counsel. Its not my choice to be so conservative. Make up your minds.

I told everything with absolute honesty. for confirming I have no control over the second vote

UNVOTE:
UNVOTE:

[The Counsel]

Try and keep up, sparky. The Counsel admitted to not being aligned with town.

You didn't even read our post ; did you?

The proxy account has no alignment and someone else has control over the second vote ; but the main voice/voter is aligned with town. Because of that you will just destroy a utility without getting any info out of this account lynch.

what about this is hard to comprehend? This is not patches nor any other proxy in your head. This is the counsel and we can be game solvers if you all start working with us.

We already offered you the first peace of information. Vote Yay or Nay or restraint.

[The Counsel]

The counsel can semi prove that its vote won't be a problem like the way your describing it starting day 2 forward.

Vote for the tawniest players in game (or choose a pool or other ways for that if you can) and I will hand over the voting power to them as well - (I don't know if this works completely in the way I'm talking about it) But I can make other livings join the counsel.

Stop being so tunneled vision, please.

[The Counsel]

and before your publishing the idea of the cult; this game is proven to not contain one (while WG was signing up)

You can ask WG about it.

[The Counsel]

Someone effectively has THREE votes as long as The Counsel lives.

~Leather

No, from what I know they will be able to use the public vote like us.

as I said the second vote is in the hands of someone else.

[The Counsel]

Whenever I make a proposal in this game, I need to do it using democracy and fair voting. I proposed the usage of my ability, so it must be voted by people.

For the second voter, as I said I know that information. I need a majority requesting for the data to expose them.

[The Counsel]

Accordingly, we also need to demand to know WHO THE COUNSEL IS A PROXY FOR, for the same reason.

This info will remain private for reasons I can't share. I will do anything else you request to insure this proxy means no harm with that vote but this is not an acceptable request because claiming that using proxy is a modkillable offense for the chairman. claiming it from the main can be counted as a suicide for the chairman.

This proxy will hand you the information it gets over time which might expose the scum aligned players. If that is not enough for you to trust it, then I guess nothing will ever make you guys to trust it.

and its not a game we play. its a restriction we have to be democratic.

about the vote. all we know about is that this account has one public vote that we can control and a private vote we had no idea how to use it till someone used it. we are informed who was this user and we have reasons to suspect them to be a mafia. If anyone else join this proxy they must be able to have access to the same public vote we have access to but thats not a mod provided info and the mod provided info's might lie.

This is why there is such a restriction on me in the first place, you must choose this at your own risk (even the main chairman must choose at their own risk). All I can tell you are advises based on the information I get.

[The Counsel]

If you do everything so democratically why did you vote me of your own accord? Why did you unvote unprompted?

~Leather

The current chairman is the voice of the counsel and has the ability to represent their vote desire. Whatever I propose must be decided by the majority.

[The Counsel]

Vote for the towniest players -> they get lynched -> they get into the dead thread (make livings join Counsel) -> they control the Counsel -> they get Counsel's voting power

We can add "living" players to the counsel. You shouldn't use the vote tag or hint the moderator in any manner that you want to vote your desired town counselors for real. The votes you submit to counsel might be in the form of read lists.

The dead counselors may continue the game using this slot.

[The Counsel]

The second vote was controlled by "Shos".

This proxy can't confirm who is the current Counsel voice. If the person who is controlling the public vote claim it, They will suicide. There is a role wise reason for keeping this secret that is not claimable based on the mod's truth color. I can't even hint on the reason.

Town can win if the counsel lives. For ex. in case of 2 town , Counsel , 2 mafia; the mafia is not the winners of the game and if all the threats to the town are eliminated, Town will win the game with an alive counsel.

The counsel will only post twice per day - once in the morning and once in the night. This might not be the pattern of the voice though.

[The Counsel]

Next to doing the right thing, the most important thing is to let people know you are doing the right thing.

With the vote count its proved that the second vote of counsel is seprate from the first one and can't be controlled by public voting from the counsel. We wanted to vote shos in our last post but we decided to wait to see his reaction to this first. The rest of this post is answers to some questions you asked and representing why we think shos scum for the way he reacted. Hope you trust us and help us pushing the scum who is using the name of the counsel.

Can dead people post through the Counsel?

from our knowledge only the dead counselors may continue to post and vote using this, As we claimed The chairman of Counsel may add people to this proxy as well so its not limited to us.

Will you pls vote Leather for wanting us to waste a dayvig shot?

If a majority asks us we will. if not we will vote whoever we scum read.

The Counsel appears to have some pro-town ability and lynching it does not look like it will help you.

This is bullshit.

The Counsel enables two hidden votes.

Anyone that seriously wants transparency in reads should want that slot dead on those ground alone.

The owner of the counsel is a double-voter, as is the private manipulator of the second vote.

Anyone that wants a fair voting process should want The Counsel dead on those grounds alone.

The Counsel has the power to recruit the private vote manipulator, effectively giving The Counsel access to four votes.

WHY DO WE NOT WANT TO KILL THIS THING?

We claimed the name we recived as we promised. We scumread them and we won't add any of our scumreads in here unless majority asks us to.

I am interested
They said the dead/wguerts controlled the account didn't they?

We never claimed - and we wont ever claim the position holder(s) in counsel as its a mod killable offend for this proxy and a suicide claim for the mains. This has extra reasons beside the extra vote which I can't claim eaither.

I also believe The Counsel is scum controlled because requiring consensus on releasing pro-town information eats up a lot of day and sidelines town from scumhunting.

What If I hand you an scum? What if I just did? That is the core meaning of scum hunting.

Now, my question to Leather is -- What will this tunnel accomplish, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE WRONG?

That's ready to answer.

1) It will make everyone accountable for their own views, REGARDLESS OF THE ALIGNMENTS OF THE OWNER AND SECOND PRIVATE VOTER.

2) It will remove two double-voters REGARDLESS OF THE ALIGNMENTS OF THE OWNER AND SECOND PRIVATE VOTER.

3) It will pacify me, REGARDLESS OF THE ALIGNMENTS OF THE OWNER AND SECOND PRIVATE VOTER.

There's, three excellent reasons to kill The Counsel.

Now, I have a question for you!

Another approach is to purify the access to this and let the town utility to continue working. I suggest that.

1) Moot point. The Counsel has already stated that they will follow any voting restrictions, wont hammer, and any info they give has to be democratically determined. That holds them accountable as we can autolynch them if they go back on their word.

Not moot. They only control ONE hidden vote, which gives scum a double-teaming as long as they're alive.

Also, The Counsel's very existence counts against living majority for town.

Exactly. We don't take any responsibilities for the other voter and we think their scum too.

The second sentence is wrong. You may count this account as a survivor whose vote is tamable. I'm giving you all the tether and some of you which are decided by majority or are town reads by us can touch the power closely. So as I said in last post town will win if this account is still alive and all of the scums are lynched and death of this account has negative effect as town will loose access to one of the votes and mafia will be closer to controlling majority.

I think it's incredibly strange that you would ask the Counsel, confirmed non-town, to pressure vote us, when you weren't even doing so yourself. That seems very fake to me.

We find this scummy as well.

I'm jumping from shos posts as I want to analyze them isolated.

Wrong.

That post does not say they are controlled by the moderator. That post is asking players not to vote them.

Huge difference.

The Counsel already admitted they were a proxy account being used to keep from outing their main when giving info.

Hidden source + multiple private votes = scum mechanics.

As we claimed The dead counselors may continue posting - and voting using this - . We don't know if the dead will join this automatically. That's why the people who are getting added in here matter.

The equation you posted is just dumb! But ok. There is something we can't claim + There are the information we can give you + tameable public vote + we outed the beholder of the private vote

This is the correct equation. I'm not asking you to townread us. This is not town. Its just a tamable utility which might be purified by sorting the hidden voter.

Also, something weird -- Sometimes the Counsel says "We" yet othertimes "I" when refering to themselves. Any ideas why?

The counsel has several sits and as i claimed earlier it may even get new counselors when the game proceeds . Whenever I used "we" I mean the counsel as a united existence and whenever I used "I" , I meant the Voice of Counsel.

Why should I believe you?

You can't believe the mod himself. How do you expect me to make you believe me? I promised to share something and I did.

Leather and Lace (3): Ircher, xyzzy
The Counsel (1): The Counsel, shos

We don't know anything about how the hidden counsel vote works. We received the identity of the person who messed with it after they used it. We don't know if its a unique ability (only shos can do it or not) and we don't know why its not getting counted on the wagon its on it.

As this post is already long I will represent the counsel opinion about shos in next post. sorry for the wall.

[The Counsel]

I don't understand what harm can be caused by that? Even if scum has control over the vote, we can leash it, right?

counsel should tell us who they are and who has the other vote

VOTE: The Counsel
I think the counsel is managed by scum. anything that has been said here is either wifom, bullshit, or empty promises. at best, this can keep us wifoming instead of actually scumhunting and playing the game. already it poofed 15 pages of nothingness.

I want this gone.

Look at this progression? They tried to defend us (when they weren't at the point we claimed we know who has the private vote), when he progressed his catch up he read that and attacked us instead. Nothing about leashing us was changed when he progressed his catch up. He was clearly afraid about getting outed. He attacked The counsel for "empty promissing" hopeing we don't know the real name - when there was no post by counsel after the point the majority was achieved till the point they attacked us. This is just a made up reason. He accused that the detail we are outing is "Nothing"; clearly afraid of the detail which was going to get exposed when its not really making him scum by its own. He was afraid for getting questioned and that is clear as day.

Counsel, could you elaborate how you got to that conclusion?

This is not a deduction. Its an information we received from the mod when you used the vote privately. The fact you didn't deny possessing that ability means your trying to have it both ways ;to react based on what was the resource. Your confused and the only thing you can think of is attacking us for discrediting the way we received that information. This by itself proves that you have the ability.

VOTE: Shos

If anyone has a objections to this step forward. If not help us to purify this proxy.

[The Counsel]

Means nothing if you're third party, which you already admitted being.

If you can't tell, I don't trust you.

This account has no alignment. Its not a third party. It vote is helping the town as mafia needs it gone to achieve majority faster. Its existence won't make anyone winner. Its death won't force anyone to loose - from the much I'm informed of - .

The Voice vote in counsel is tamable and other may take its tether starting tomorrow.

I can't tell anything else about this utility as there is nothing more! I can't tell who is the voice as I claimed and That's the only thing you can't force me to answer.

Ask me anything else.

[The Counsel]

UNVOTE: UNVOTE:

We can't use the a majority for the vote of this account as if the majority is already willed to vote someone, They are already lynched.

For that we won't vote in this day phase at all

, Till this account get a publicized voice. Is that acceptable for you?

If this account was voting it would vote Shos.

This is how I will address our will for vote during this day phase.

[The Counsel]

UNVOTE:

[The Counsel]

My read is null; I believe the mod framed them.

This is just not possible

A player and an bility is involved in this for sure : The vote happened some time after BNLP asking us to vote ourselves and the next VC. According to mod, we saw Shos submitting that vote. Even if the name is wrong there is no way the whole vote utility was a predetermined setup plan (cause it happened after BNLP sentence so someone must have activated it for that specific sentence)

This means in someones role pm, there must be something about this, and the action definitely happened - which means the action is in hands of scum as they are not clarifying it.

Don't let Shos escape with that unfinished claim which totally makes sense as scum him. There is wifom involved in this, we agree; but his reaction to the whole interaction was so fake that the counsel believes he is scum for it.

[The Counsel]

Tc: what happens if we lynch the player controlling your vote? Does it become yours to controlled, some other player random, or dead player?

The dead counselors may continue to use this proxy for communication and voting.

We confirm that Shos is not a member of the counsel.

[The Counsel]

Ummm.... what? That totally just flew over my head.

Say it again w/ different terms and more concrete evidence.

I'm saying The vote happened after BNLP told this :

The Counsel must vote itself at once

so unless your suggesting that the mod had this complicated plan to frame someone after people asking counsel to vote themselves, It is related to someone's role pm and abilities (and that person used an action after BNLP request)

In other words because the self vote happened only after BNLP requested it, it can't be a mod pregame evil plan. The name "shos" might be a lie though but we don't have a town read on shos to believe that's the case.

[The Counsel]

The reason I asked for clarification here was because you said that it was impossible for the mod to frame them, yet your explanation made zero sense in terms of explaining why thats the case. I didn't say it wasn't role-related; I didn't say it wasn't triggered; what I did say was that the mod could've lied to you and therefore framed shos.

Mod can't lie unless its something decided for the game since pregame. and I agreed "yes mod might have been lieing to me about the name "shos"" but someone - very likly scum had access to an ability to vote like that

I'm fairly sure it wasn't BNLP cause that was stupid of him to request something like that from himself and to put down and invisible vote.

Occam's razor only applies MOST, NOT ALL the time. In a game like this, it may not apply often. Your point is 100% contradictory; if you seeing shos was triggered by someone using the fake vote on you, then it was therefore role-related and therefore 100% possible to have been pre-planned from the start. BNLP wasn't accused; shos was. Whether the accusation is true or false matters not; what's more important is the fact that you are being contradictory in order to try to get someone lynched. I understand and can see why you don't townread shos, but your argument based on setup, etc. is totally absurd and incorrect and isn't worth mentioning.

Noone is using Occam's razor. I see someone used an ability after BNLP telling that and I saw shos doing that. Why should anyone do such an absurd vote you might ask?

They were trying to support our claim that the counsel is tamable by town by voting in a way town (BNLP) requested them. This is the only way the whole situation makes sense. My idea is not based on the setup nor its absurd. I'm saying I saw someone doing an invisible vote after BNLP requested it and their denying doing it - and no one claimed to take responsibility for that vote if it was a mod restriction for them to follow others order.

The fact we saw shos don't make him scum. The way he played , claimed and general play and his reaction to us outing them is scummy.

I call what you did here white knighting and I will come back to this if shos flip scum.

More votes on scum shos please.

[The Counsel]

They were trying to support our claim that the counsel is tamable by town by voting in a way town (BNLP) requested them.

Their agenda was to help us to reduce the heat on this slot - so they can save their extra vote for later game stage.

[The Counsel]

right now I think it's way more likely that shos is town and the thing with the vote is somehow not in his control. the assumption that shos is scum and was lying doesn't make any sense, because scum would have absolutely no incentive to not be honest about that, especially once it became clear that the source of the vote would be revealed. therefore, I think it's far more likely that either wgeurts or the counsel introduced misinformation.

This is setup spec - not scum hunting.

I'm not assuming anything. I saw shos doing that and I claimed it. They made a post like "whaaaaaat? how did you reach that conclusion?" which is obviously their try to stay in the middle ground and its highly suggesting they were involved with that.

This is not based on any information. This is us using an information (which might contain lies) to test him and the information itself). This is pure scum hunting. We reached this conclusion that shos is really scum and the information is absolute truth in this point.

Re-look at his ISO and the timings of their posts and see how they tried to not go rough in any stage. Now be a dear and pressure him for a claim.

[The Counsel]

We saw shos changing the vote again and the vote is now on himself ...

@Shos No messenger is involved. The result is related to the voice of counsel.

Thanks for changing the vote cause its now proven that mod pre-planned framing "Shos" by lying to the voice of counsel whenever the real one who controls that vote change it or Shos is really involved in this.

[The Counsel]

I think shos was granted the vote when he voted the Mod, and has been controling it ever since, and lying the whole time.

Thoughts on this?

Hello new traveler.

That vote was in game even before BNLP statement (in VC 1.0). We just had no idea how to use it or how that will work out. Sometime after BNLP asking us to vote ourselves and the next VC, "Shos used The counsel vote" That's the information Voice of the counsel received from the mod.

Sometime between #594 and VC 1.6. "Shos used The counsel vote" again. and in VC 1.6 the vote was on shos himself.

The only logically possible lie in this might be the name of "shos" and nothing else. Someone has that vote utility and that someone is scummy because of keeping this hidden. Again we do believe shos is the real one and there is no lie involved in those results.

We are not convinced that the vote has 0 weight and we think it might be a lie. In summary the vote is not in hands of the counsel and from our POV the sooner it gets sorted the sooner this slot will be purified.

[The Counsel]

resolved*

We don't trust what is in "our name" but we have no control over it.

[The Counsel]

Pressure and investigation

[The Counsel]

The counsel has some information about xyyz slot.

Vote for revealing it or hiding it.

[The Counsel]

The information is : An investigation targeting xyzzy yielded "no result".

We won't talk about the information source -even that we know it or not- unless a majority asks us to.

in another note L&L must be a part of counsel if nothing interfered with the chairman actions. L&L confirm or deny this please.

[The Counsel]

I've not talked on it but #113 #196 and especially #209 contain information ("someone tried to mess with our ability", "everything we do must be democratically approved" [this counts, no majority asked], "We can make livings join The Counsel") revealed without the need for a democratic vote beforehand.

Way to go boy! All the posted you quoted were us claiming a part of our role/power not sharing any information/results.

This account can use for claiming chairman role as much as it want or to vote as much as it want - unless if its going to reveal the chairman's identity as it will result in two direct modkills (chairman and the counsel) . Any restriction applied by majority will restrict the chairman's control over this account. plus the information/results must be voted for in this manner before being revealed - the only exception is that we are allowed to ignore your votes that are asking us to reveal the chairman identity.

We don't like the way your trying to fish the source by forcing us to claim and not trying to investigate the information at hand itself.

[The Counsel]

posts*

[The Counsel]

"Someone tried to mess with your ability" is not a part of your role.

That wasn't an information. It was more like a deduction ...

That's wg's call that we broke the restriction or not - and he thought not so Whats your problem?

[The Counsel]

We answered you in the place you can see but others can't.

[The Counsel]

It doesn't help that you also deleted any sign of the information that you provided town yesterDay.

That information is what the main chairman account received. Nothing was deleted from the proxy account.

[The Counsel]

I'm asking what happened Sherlock

The chairman invited them.

[The Counsel]

I'm asking what happened Sherlock

*waves*

~Leather and Lace (House)

[The Counsel]

By the way the fake counsel vote is again changed by shos.

[The Counsel]

No sent PM's at all.

~L&L

[The Counsel]

I have the ability to use the "public" vote, and there are no PM's submitting votes in The Counsel's messaging center that I noticed but I'll look again.

Doesn't the public vote not actually count to voting?

Pretty sure it was the private vote that was a 0 vote yesterday.

~L&L

[The Counsel]

@To all counselors

Get on The Counsel - There are some important matters we need to discuss.

[The Counsel]

@Everyone

Please vote for letting the chairman to claim a result in the counsel pt - for the other counselors.

I don't want this to be publicly revealed at this point but I can't stop from claiming it if you ask for that too.

Don't haste this day phase - Please

~Chairman

[The Counsel]

The chairman thanks everyone for their cooperation.

The counsel has a discussing session atm - we will out the matter when the time is right for doing that.

Please don't insta-end this day - and don't disband the MM's wagon.