Mini 1851 : Order of the Stick Mafia - Epilogue

[Tammy]

I had a woohoo woowee I'm town post planned, but I was up all night and now I've lost the energy. So my inner cheerleader is like ra-ra go, but I'm tired.

VOTE: nacho

I won't abandon you this game. Will you abandon me?

[Tammy]

I had a woohoo woowee I'm town post planned, but I rolled scum

that's what you really meant, admit it

haha oh you.

I'd probably still be crying in the corner if I drew scum. Hard to log in when your eyes are all bleary :p

[Tammy]

I had a woohoo woowee I'm town post planned, but I rolled scum

that's what you really meant, admit it

Why no vote?

huh?

[Tammy]

pretty sure that was a joke.

[Tammy]

Mr. Scruffy is wondering if there is a reason besides RVS that four players immediately voted Nacho.

I'm town so he has to be scum :p

[Tammy]

Just a question- has anyone ever purchased the books? I've read the comic online, and I want to get the books, but they seemed to be priced for the 1%, and can;t be located used or second hand. Has anyone ever seen or bought a printed copy?

A DM I played under before I moved a few years ago had the peripheral texts, which are pretty inexpensive on Amazon, but I've never seen the main comic in print. Didn't know it existed.

Also, that reminds me yet again that I need to catch up on the comic.

[Tammy]

Mr. Scruffy is wondering if there is a reason besides RVS that four players immediately voted Nacho.

I'm town so he has to be scum :p

I don't know about anyone else, but you sold me with that argument!

Yeah, it's a pretty airtight argument.

[Tammy]

Infinity why are you asking people why they're voting you in rvs?

You feel kinda like the maze game pre-restart.

[Tammy]

Ha! I thought it had something to do with the numbers.

Tammy - Understanding P5's humor since 2016. Go me!

Infinity - Did you just vote nacho because there was a wagon started on him already?

[Tammy]

I believe I have an early leaning town read on kagami.

[Tammy]

I believe I have an early leaning town read on kagami.

You believe you do, or you do? They're not quite the same.

They're pretty much the same.

[Tammy]

I had a woohoo woowee I'm town post planned, but I was up all night and now I've lost the energy. So my inner cheerleader is like ra-ra go, but I'm tired.

VOTE: nacho

I won't abandon you this game. Will you abandon me?

I won't abandon you this game! I'm hoping that this will be the first game in a long time where we will both be town and the game doesn't devolve into a gigantic shitshow by page 20; we deserve it.

Oh I forgot that I was going to tell you that part of me hoped you got scum because you've been on a town streak and you'd probably like it, but the bigger part of me just hopes you're town.

We do deserve it and I hope you are.

[Tammy]

I kinda liked Infinity's post about his play style meshing after some sleep, not enough for a read though. His early play did feel kinda stiff like the maze pre-restart.

I like nacho's posts too but DON'T WORRY I'LL CONTINUE TO QUESTION MY READ ON YOU THIS TIME!

Also, agree with wisdom agreeing with nacho concerning p5.

We can all hold hands and do the electric slide or something.

[Tammy]

Mr. Scruffy is wondering if there is a reason besides RVS that four players immediately voted Nacho.

I'm town so he has to be scum :p

please don't joke around like this; cakez is playing so there's now a 75% chance that he latches onto this and uses it to tunnel me for the rest of the game

DAMMIT!

I had a joke planned about that too, but I completely forgot.

No sleep made me forget all the things.

[Tammy]

Also maybe I've finally shaken off my scum streak curse. I'm actually finding early leaning town reads.

[Tammy]

but DON'T WORRY I'LL CONTINUE TO QUESTION MY READ ON YOU THIS TIME!

Does this mean that I can't misrep your cases on my scumpartners and get away with it again?

Oh yes, there will be no holding back from me this time.

[Tammy]

I will also agree with the townreads on Infinity.

I think that him continuing to nitpick things and defend that way of playing despite people clearly finding it odd and worth questioning shows lack of scum motivation.

He was a bit nitpicky in the maze game as scum. (pre-restart)

[Tammy]

Also maybe I've finally shaken off my scum streak curse. I'm actually finding early leaning town reads.

peregrine is stronger than a lean for me.

Your early town reads are always stronger than mine.

[Tammy]

I believe I have an early leaning town read on kagami.

I was thinking the same thing. I liked her approach to infinity in general but #47 was a pretty quality post

Yep, that was the post that prompted the read.

[Tammy]

I think in general people word things according to how they write and feel. I'm not sure how strongly asserted a page two read is supposed to be. Most people just structure their sentences the same regardless of alignment. You don't need room to maneuver; you can always change your mind with new information and posts. I've never understood the people who play scum leaving room open to do that, but I think it's probably a comfortability thing.

I'm not sure how scum!infinity would react or behave in relation to a small thing like a try-hard tell. In the maze game, he didn't change up his game when someone scum read him early. In fact, changing your game when a person points something out is a red flag.

[Tammy]

Oh and it was a month my cat went without a name.

[Tammy]

hey that was my guess

[Tammy]

So, I wish when we were following Family Mafia, I had asked Empire what he uses to read Cakez with because we had a slight disagreement on read there and he said that in every game he'd followed with Cakez in it, he'd gotten the read right. I don't think the shallowness of his read is very alignment indicative. I know that he has some rather rigid scum tells that he stands by, and when I was skimming yesterday I thought for sure it was Cakez who scum read Wisdom for the 180 on a read, which is something I was concerned about him early game in musical mafia, but it wasn't so never mind that. I think his argument that town!Wisdom wouldn't think that two scum jumped on him for the same silly reasoning is silly because a) I don't think it's unheard of. I've had several scum jump on me early game for terrible silly reasons and literally be the only people scumreading me before. It's possible and b) it was an answer to a quesstion and he can think the two of them are independently scummy anyway.

What I don't think is silly is his concerns about Wisdom not being aggressive and whether or not the meta change means scum. I've seen aggressive and subdued Wisdom as scum though so I don't think that the change definitely means he's scum as I can think of a few town reasons for someone to change their approach, and there's no reason for him not to be aggressive in this situation as it would be what a good many of us would expect.

I was a bit weirded out by him not posting his quote stripes when he first entered though, but I don't put a whole lot of stock in arguments that he didn't explain a scum read because he couldn't at that time.

I also was concerned about Bulbazack's lack of quote stripe response to everything in the thread. I was kind of expecting a bit of suspicion thrown my way from bulba but I didn't even get a mention :p

Nacho - Not sure what to think about Infinity yet. I don't thing the early town reads due to him continuing on his "tryhard" style in the face of being called out by wisdom all that strong when he didn't even realize he was being called out. There are a few posts that I like. I like him being like I'm playing shitty right now because I haven't slept and it's day one where I struggle because I empathize with that type of sentiment. I don't know if you read the maze prerestart, but early game infinity scum was tryhardy and a bit nitpicky. He did interact and distance with his partner quite a bit, and then he jumped off of his partner to scum read me mostly because my opening post was forced. Anyway our interaction felt a little odd, and I felt like he had an agenda. It wasn't even close to conclusive and I'm bummed we restarted because now I don't know if I'd have gotten that read right. But this is a lot of words to say some of his posts don't give me that same feel. From that game I do think he has a bit of a nitpicky type of scum game (maybe?) and I don't get the sense that he'd change his approach just because someone mentioned it, especially when he just didn't notice it. Some of his posts feel sticky, but then some feel fluid and I like those.

Kraska is most likely just town. I also think that Nacho and I are finally town together again (RIGHT NOW :p). Other town reads on Pere and Kagami. (I do feel weird with such a decent town read on Pere so early. Sometimes day one I lean town, but don't feel this decent. The last time I did, he was an SK so every time I get a good read on Pere early I think he might be an SK and it freaks me out, but I don't think there's an SK this game, so I just think I have a weird early decent town read on Pere.)

Everyone else is varying shades of just not sure right now, but I feel pretty good about having some early town reads. I feel like it's been a while since I've gotten town reads early, and even if some of these are wrong I'm still happy about that.

I understand the scum reads on Wraith, but I was going to vote shaddowez until I realized I couldn't be the cool kid to start that wagon. So, I'm just gonna stick on Nacho for a while so you guys can question me about why it's there and when I'm going to change it because it's always fun when that happens.

[Tammy]

I do too. I have more town leaning reads in my list of unsure than not and thought earlier this is going to be an easy lovely game then got paranoid because it's rarely ever that easy.

[Tammy]

I don't even care. The fact that I'm getting town reads makes me so happy because it means I'm trusting again. I went on a hell of a scum streak and the result was that I've had a really hard time feeling good about town reads in the few town games I've gotten. Feeling paranoid about literally everyone in a game feels a hell of a lot worse than having a town read or two wrong on day one.

[Tammy]

are you making fun of me?

[Tammy]

Oh I had a momentary flash of shit wait are you making fun of me for town reading you and your partners. which would be silly, I guess, but.

[Tammy]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

[Tammy]

I was aaaaahing at wraith's last post, not nachos' which I appreciated.

[Tammy]

Okay let's take a look at shadow's short ISO

Firstly, it's somewhat of a good sign to me that both Wisdom and SirCakez both scumread him. It's a little early in the game though to present doubts on that front for fear of WIFOM.

I believe I have an early leaning town read on kagami.

You believe you do, or you do? They're not quite the same.

Fluff IMO

I believe I have an early leaning town read on kagami.

You believe you do, or you do? They're not quite the same.

They're pretty much the same.

Infinity

, here's your answer: I tend to be nitpicky about semantics. One of the phrases is more assertive than the other, which often times comes from town. The other leaves a little bit of room for maneuverability, which often times comes from scum. In this case they are pretty much the same, but the phrasing can still be indicative of things.

I don't like semantic arguments. That's just me. Semantic arguments are a scumtell to me. That's probably because I strongly prefer VCA and logical/data-based arguments than attempting to analyze word choice or emotional expression. I think it's absolutely impossible to accurately analyze someone's emotional state over the internet.

...snip...
Kagami is spending all his time trying to sort specifically me, which is odd to me. But he still seems town for now. Gut town lean on Tammy.

VOTE: wraith

Two things. First, if you have a read on a particular person, shouldn't you pursue that and/or pressure them? What's specifically odd about trying to sort out one person, especially without knowing their motivation for doing so? Second - why discuss other people in your post, and then vote Wraith with no other mention of him in your post?

This is an awfully strange 180:

Whats strange about it? The reason im townreading Infinity happened after those initial posts and actually have to do with how Infinity handled those posts.

I dont like this.

Widom beat me to it. There were a number of posts in between, and I can easily see how Infinity's responses could have caused a change in a read. Are you suggesting that people's reads shouldn't change?

@Nacho: Can you explain what you were trying to accomplish with your questioning of shadow?

I'm more interested in why he seemed to be soft defending Tammy and focusing on things not related to this game specifically. Granted I brought up Thor and other people's posts, but that was to illustrate why I was looking into something here.

@MOI: V/LA until Sunday the 13th.

Townreading Inf for his early play, don't see the scum motivation in his play. I think he's immediately scumhunting and trying to get the game going.

VOTE: kraska

Is this an RVS vote? You haven't participated yet, say you like Infinity, and then randomly vote kraska. If it's not, please give some explanation.

I thought and still think this was a good post.

Shadow could be more active (then again the same could be said of me) but at this point I'm not going to commit to wagoning him. He hasn't made any specific slip to make me scumread him yet.

What kind of slips do you look for? What slip had Wisdom made that gave you such a good scum read?

[Tammy]

Bulba - Nope, there's nothing to be suspicious of. It's just the last several games we've played together you've been suspicious of me for some reason or another.

Do you always tend to work with nacho or is wanting his feedback something new you're trying for this game?

[Tammy]

Wraith -

Why don't you like that Infinity admitting to voting the RVS wagon that was already in place?

What do you think it means when people are concerned about the votes on them?

Do you think that someone can't get a read on someone after a couple of posts?

Can you talk a little more about why you think I'm someone who makes effortless posts as scum too and therefore you need to hold off on reading me?

And what gives you the impression that Nacho is not? (I'd like you to talk about that read a little more in depth.)

[Tammy]

How's it going tammy

What's your opinion on wraith? bulba? wisdom?

And what should I do about farside since it's really starting to piss me off :/

Good!

I skimmed last night before bed, so I'm going back to actually read and respond to things. I'll talk about that later though.

Have thoughts about the farside thing too. You could yell and scream like I do, but I don't advice that and always feel bad when I do it :p

[Tammy]

*advise - I just woke up apparently can't spell.

[Tammy]

I think it’s again a bad sign for Wisdom that two players I have townreads on (Nacho from #247 and kraska from #206) and one player I don’t (Infinity from #208) both have nullreads on shadow from his limited ISO while Wisdom somehow has a scumread from it.

this feels a little forced
"I don't get how Wisdom has a different opinion than others = bad sign for Wisdom"
nah

I missed this somehow.

Wraith can you explain why someone can't have a scum read if others haven't?

(By the by this is giving me flashbacks to times that I've correctly identified lurking scum, not because they were lurking, and their partner (s) have discredited my read that it's lurking and lynching a lurker is dumb and I couldn't have the read I had because they haven't put out enough content. Not saying they are definitely partners because it just feels odd that he would be chainsawing so hard (is that the correct term? I hate those mafia buzzwords, but I think I'm using it right here) so early as this would look terrible for him if he flipped. Not impossible just odd.)

[Tammy]

I'd like to hear a bit more about your Tammy, nacho, and kraska reads before I reconsider that^

Not much more to say on that front.

Nacho - Competent, insightful, and even-handed. We're thinking along the same lines but Nacho is much better at expressing it. He's made plenty of observations that have influenced my thinking

Kraska - Nacho-lite. Has had a knack for picking up on what's motivating my posts when Wisdom has attacked them. I disagree with several of her reads but to each their own.

Tammy - Has made some good contributions thus far. But as said, Tammy seems like the type of player that's hard to evaluate for certain without some flips because making good contributions seems effortless to her.

Can you point out which Nacho posts influenced your thinking and how?

And I really am interested in what makes you think that regarding me.

[Tammy]

Why?

And why am I null instead of a scumread when you said multiple times you think I'm scummy?

Because I question the motive a player might have to get momentum on a wagon based on pure RVS. I don't see much reason for it.

Is this about the nacho rvs wagon?

Also have you played with nacho before?

[Tammy]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

What does this mean about wraith's post? I'm not sure how to interpret it

I didn't like the post he made and I'm having an internal struggle trying to decipher his alignment and how to read him.

[Tammy]

If someone wants to meta me, they can ask me for links and do it properly. I would never play like this as scum, and I didn't even play like this in poker mafia.

No shit it's a quick turnaround, it's page 19 and I don't have any strong scumreads. If someone does something scummy I'll vote.

And forgive me if I don't remember the specifics of a game that ended months ago.

It might do you some good to consider town motivation

Would you like a review of what poker mafia had?
You defending mm, who was town.
Me making pre-flip associations.

Tell me how you go from wraith looking like he is scum hunting to voting for him?

How is defending someone a particular quality of one's scum game only?

Do you always remember how town plays when you've played against them as scum? Or how they play in general? And why is Infinity asking if you make pre-flip associations a trait of him being scum?

In general, I think the arguments that someone turned around their read too quickly are pretty silly. Even if I'm leaning town on someone and they make a post that makes me question that, I'm not going to hold on to a read I had even if it's made 30 seconds before.

What does Infinity gain by making such a quick turnaround as scum?

[Tammy]

Oops sorry for spamming.

I'm liking infinity for town more than I was before, and the scum reads there for the reasons they are are very odd. I like his interaction with Farside, and there's a part of me that thinks that farside is pushing this thing harder than she believes in order to try to get a read or something. Part of this comes from farside accusing Infinity of throwing shade on her when he told her to engage with him, and the reasons she feels so sold on the read are very flimsy and not even alignment indicative. Not sure what to make on Farside from it, part of me thinks if she were scum she'd have something stronger there.

I'm on the fence with pretty much everyone else, oh except I think I like Cakez more than I did. If Wisdom is scum then cakez and probably bulbazack look better for it, not sure what to think about Wraith. If I get a chance, I'll go back and look at tarot card because I think I remember there being some discussion of Wisdom's behavior as scum. And in that game he did have a pretty noticeable meta change, which he wrote off as being him burnt out and needing a break. (I believe he probably was burnt out and needed a break.)

Anyway, some things bother about Wraith and I have a theory growing but it might be silly and I want to see Wraith respond to some things.

[Tammy]

Oh one thing that I didn't like about the Wraith post that I aaaaaah is that he points out that what he doesn't like about shadowwez is the semantic thing and how that is one behavior that he finds more likely to come from scum (which suggests that he has a particular scum tell) but then he looks at his next post and likes it (the next post being a rather benign post that didn't have anything wonderful to it) and then declares that he hasn't made a slip yet.

If he can see a post which has what amounts to a scum tell or more likely scum behavior in it, and then read the next post and go gee I like this post, why was he scum reading Wisdom at the start of the game for a 180?

[Tammy]

there's a part of me that thinks that farside is pushing this thing harder than she believes in order to try to get a read or something.

Thats what i think cakez is doing with me

After watching cakez tunnel on nacho for the past couple games they've played together, I think cakez just believes in his scum read.

[Tammy]

If someone wants to meta me, they can ask me for links and do it properly. I would never play like this as scum, and I didn't even play like this in poker mafia.

No shit it's a quick turnaround, it's page 19 and I don't have any strong scumreads. If someone does something scummy I'll vote.

And forgive me if I don't remember the specifics of a game that ended months ago.

It might do you some good to consider town motivation

Would you like a review of what poker mafia had?
You defending mm, who was town.
Me making pre-flip associations.

Tell me how you go from wraith looking like he is scum hunting to voting for him?

How is defending someone a particular quality of one's scum game only?

Do you always remember how town plays when you've played against them as scum? Or how they play in general? And why is Infinity asking if you make pre-flip associations a trait of him being scum?

In general, I think the arguments that someone turned around their read too quickly are pretty silly. Even if I'm leaning town on someone and they make a post that makes me question that, I'm not going to hold on to a read I had even if it's made 30 seconds before.

What does Infinity gain by making such a quick turnaround as scum?

Well hello miss fluff questions.
I'm going to call you scum for these fluffy questions since 3 of them are logical, which I know you are a very logical person.
2 give you nothing towards my alignment.
But to humor you here is a response.
1) I've played with infinity a few times. Town read defense, yes, null read defense, no.
That makes no sense, if it does to you tell me why?
2) recent games absolutely. A game months ago, more likely then not, a year ago, no.
3) infinity played with me before. I saw the question as fake.

Did you suck on a lemon before you started posting.

And feel free calling me miss fluff, but make sure you get it right as its miss town fluff, and I'll call you ms posturey because you feel like you're posturing to me.

You're citing one scum and going aha you defended someone there, you're defending someone here, see the resemblance cause I do.

I don't think that is a conclusion you actually hold or think is valid. If there is some resemblance feel free to explain why.

See the thing is when I'm scum, I don't remember every detail about how they play, and when I haven't played a lot I don't remember. Some people I don't even remember playing with or very little about them.

I don't think that expecting a player to remember a small detail about their play is valid, and I'm surprised you do.

[Tammy]

I think there's some bad communication going on here that I'm not going to sort out right this second but farside looks town.

Why in gods name do you think that?

Does she always make such terrible arguments and posture and talk down to people? I've not experienced that at all.

[Tammy]

If someone wants to meta me, they can ask me for links and do it properly. I would never play like this as scum, and I didn't even play like this in poker mafia.

No shit it's a quick turnaround, it's page 19 and I don't have any strong scumreads. If someone does something scummy I'll vote.

And forgive me if I don't remember the specifics of a game that ended months ago.

It might do you some good to consider town motivation

Would you like a review of what poker mafia had?
You defending mm, who was town.
Me making pre-flip associations.

Tell me how you go from wraith looking like he is scum hunting to voting for him?

How is defending someone a particular quality of one's scum game only?

Do you always remember how town plays when you've played against them as scum? Or how they play in general? And why is Infinity asking if you make pre-flip associations a trait of him being scum?

In general, I think the arguments that someone turned around their read too quickly are pretty silly. Even if I'm leaning town on someone and they make a post that makes me question that, I'm not going to hold on to a read I had even if it's made 30 seconds before.

What does Infinity gain by making such a quick turnaround as scum?

Well hello miss fluff questions.
I'm going to call you scum for these fluffy questions since 3 of them are logical, which I know you are a very logical person.
2 give you nothing towards my alignment.
But to humor you here is a response.
1) I've played with infinity a few times. Town read defense, yes, null read defense, no.
That makes no sense, if it does to you tell me why?
2) recent games absolutely. A game months ago, more likely then not, a year ago, no.
3) infinity played with me before. I saw the question as fake.

Did you suck on a lemon before you started posting.

And feel free calling me miss fluff, but make sure you get it right as its miss town fluff, and I'll call you ms posturey because you feel like you're posturing to me.

You're citing one scum and going aha you defended someone there, you're defending someone here, see the resemblance cause I do.

I don't think that is a conclusion you actually hold or think is valid. If there is some resemblance feel free to explain why.

See the thing is when I'm scum, I don't remember every detail about how they play, and when I haven't played a lot I don't remember. Some people I don't even remember playing with or very little about them.

I don't think that expecting a player to remember a small detail about their play is valid, and I'm surprised you do.

When it comes to how I play and spam the game, it's not a small detail.
Also fasinating enough there is a thing called a search function, where you can read a players meta for yo7rself.
Did you know that?
Did you ask or look to see if this is typical of inifinity or myself or did you decide to come in and just post things that make you look active?
Because that's how your questions appear.
For a p9int of refernce that doesn't include Infinity scum game, we played princess bride mafia and he didn't call a player scummy and the defend them in that game if it helps.
So since you feel he is right, why don't you explain why you think town would be calling a player scummy, yet defend them when a wagon appears?

Yeah you can take tour condescension pill and step off.

[Tammy]

Although I did want the question of what infinity gains by making such a quick turn around as scum answered to.

[Tammy]

they're theory questions is what she meant

Weren't theory questions.

[Tammy]

Maybe, they are very different cases though and my issue on cakez was a little more nuanced than that.

Could you explain the nuance a little better for me?

The combination of the shallow read, the lack of questioning on wisdom, and the initial focus solely on wisdom are what led to my scumread. I'd have to look at farside's thing but iirc it was a lot more trivial than that.

Your memory is good, it was.

I thought you were being yoda for a second and was confused.

[Tammy]

First off I'm sorry about my attitude.
I was told about it in my last game and I was trying hard not to repeat it this game but a few attitudes got to me and I started feeling that anger I get towards people that is probably not fair.
Don't know why it hits me some times. I think I take things a bit too personal from people. If I knew a way to get that under control.........
Anyways I will try to tone down and if I need a slap occasional that says farside you need to step back, then please say so.

Although I did want the question of what infinity gains by making such a quick turn around as scum answered to.

When I saw infinity swap from first thought was shit, is wraith being quick lynched by scum? Then I wondered if infinity maybe bussing after I didn't get a response about why he was defending wraith.

I apologize for a snap reaction too.

Yeah see this is about what I was wondering about when I wanted to know what he would gain from the quick turn around. In the case of Infinity!scum wraith!town, Infinity probably had more to gain by defending him a bit. He doesn't really need to blend in and he didn't over whiteknight him or anything.

In the case of Infinity!scum/Wraith!scum, infinity might have tried to go on the defend route at first, but then after he got a bunch of scum reads decided that it would look better for him if he bussed. But in that case it feels so sloppily done. But this is probably one of the few instances where I think the fast turn around could be suspicious.

[Tammy]

Do you always tend to work with nacho or is wanting his feedback something new you're trying for this game?

Everything within me is screaming that this is Wisdom's scum game. However, Nacho's acting like it isn't, and there are indicators that it could just be Wisdom playing like he did in my very first game on site. I would like to pick Nacho's brain about it, because my gut is telling me that I'm just wanting to believe the best here and that this game

is

that easy and that we can all be friends. But at the same time, I'm starting to get a sinking feeling, and there's a bit of paranoia now starting to resurface.

I really liked this part of this post. This reminds me of how we were trying to figure out Titus in mafiaception and he's giving off that same type of vibe he was when troubled about that read.

I have to get ready for work so I can't look at anything else. Monday/Tuesday are my busiest days so I very likely won't be back today, maybe tomorrow, definitely Wednesday.

[Tammy]

Welp. I skimmed very quickly, so I might have missed some things.

First off I hate wisdoms bulba shot. I thought his paranoia of wisdom looked pretty real and the post before he was shot. That shot just doesn't make sense with what was coming before.

Also the shot does not make him town. I agree with kagami that stab is a difficult match up for an evil person such that Belarus as a fake claim doesn't make too much sense, but I'm not going straight to town.

Infinity - this is greyice's playstyle. He is not afraid to tunnel on anyone as scum (there could be specific individuals I guess, but I doubt very seriously that wisdom is one of them). For reference you could look at this summers large theme pyp to see him tunneling zmuffin for instance. Not sure what to make of his alignment right now though, but thinking he wouldn't tunnel someone will probably just get you in danger where he's concerned.

Roy makes sense as a lyncher to xykon. His bp makes sense and even the investigative makes sense as he's looking for a specific individual. But if he is in fact lyncher then that probably means we can't just call the main characters town even though Haley was town. RIP HALEY. I'll wear my Haley tshirt in your honor .

I'm not 100% sure that I buy it. I think kagami was right when she said shenanigans were afoot.

Gonna make this a little more complicated and sorry if I shouldn't be doing this, but I also have a vig shot. It's disabled right now, so I can't shoot until something happens to enable it. My first thought when wisdom stabbed was that Mafia were given a day kill or he's a day killing sk Because why would there be two vigs? But I don't know if the fact that I'm disabled and could quite possibly never shoot temper that a bit.

My battery is dying I'll try to remember whatever thoughts I had later.

[Tammy]

I said I would be here today, but I have the worst headache. I should have some time tomorrow to catch up.

[Tammy]

I'll be here tomorrow.

(It's Thanksgiving week, so I'll actually have time on a Monday for mafia!)

[Tammy]

I don't have much time as I'm heading out the door, but I'll be back later.

Anyway I hated that hammer with the fire of a thousand suns. Kagami is probably town unfortunately, but the hammer was fucking stupid. I expect that kind of shit when I play with katsuki but not kagami. I have absolutely no idea why it was necessary to end the day when we had plenty of tine, people were still in the midst of talking and gathering information. I don't care that you're impatient, go knit some socks or something.

Also I'm suspicious of wisdoms bullshit ass angle that greyice gave up because there was nobody else he could push. He pushed bulba town and was now left with nothing. BULKSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT. Greyice doesn't go welp gee golly nothing I can do cuz I'm too scurred to push town.

I don't know why people have a town read on cakes, so I'd love it if someone explained it to me. Preferably something better than he's town.

Not sure on nacho, and I'd like for him to talk a bit more about his problems with Leon's claim.

Kraska is still probably town.

[Tammy]

Also yay my day one gut leaning scum read was right

[Tammy]

People who disagree with you are not scum wisdom, you know that.

[Tammy]

You're not a shining example of town wisdom.

[Tammy]

Literally the only thing you have going for you is a day kill, that might be a town pr.

[Tammy]

An someone please invite so we don't have a duplicate dumbass hammer before the conversations that are in process get to finish.

I'm at the rink right now and won't be home for a bit but I'd really like to catch up.

[Tammy]

Nacho - What are your thoughts about people not named Wisdom?

(I won't get a chance to get caught up until I get back home in a couple hours, but I will tonight!)

[Tammy]

I don't know why people have a town read on cakes, so I'd love it if someone explained it to me. Preferably something better than he's town.

He's scumhunting but not trying to look like he's scumhunting.

Do you have something better than this?

[Tammy]

People who disagree with you are not scum wisdom, you know that.

He wasnt scummy because he disagreed

I was referring to me. I hated the way you pushed GreyIce. That was bullshit reasoning. I can't think of any player scrub enough to give up because there are a bunch of other town reads and they just can't do anything anymore, definitely not GreyIce. I don't think that is something that you actually believe. I think you were making up bullshit because either you're town and just wanted him gone because he pissed you off or because you're scum and he was onto you.

I'm always going to point out bullshit when I see it, and that was bullshit reasoning.

Me not agreeing with you and calling you out for bullshit reasoning does not make me scum.

[Tammy]

I'm here. Agree Nacho is scum, was waiting for him to say something.

Tammy, even if MoI told me "GI is Town. After writing that, I rolled a d4 and switched the alignment only if I rolled a 4," I would have hammered GI.

I hate day ones that are cut short when people are still in information gathering stage because someone decides it needs to end. If it would have hit scum, I'd bite my tongue but still be annoyed about it.

[Tammy]

Strongman thing is too bad.

Why?

[Tammy]

I feel like Cakez is constantly hitting the same notes I am which is pretty reassuring; and though it worried me a little at the beginning, his push on me is not that likely to come from scum-him, he's much better off buddying me

Over night when thinking about this game I had some concerns about nacho and cakes, and then I realized that some of my concerns about nacho come from my concerns about cakez.

If nacho is scum I won't be discounting cakez as a potential partner.

[Tammy]

I don't have much time as I'm heading out the door, but I'll be back later.

Anyway I hated that hammer with the fire of a thousand suns. Kagami is probably town unfortunately, but the hammer was fucking stupid. I expect that kind of shit when I play with katsuki but not kagami. I have absolutely no idea why it was necessary to end the day when we had plenty of tine, people were still in the midst of talking and gathering information. I don't care that you're impatient, go knit some socks or something.

Also I'm suspicious of wisdoms bullshit ass angle that greyice gave up because there was nobody else he could push. He pushed bulba town and was now left with nothing. BULKSHIT BULLSHIT BULLSHIT. Greyice doesn't go welp gee golly nothing I can do cuz I'm too scurred to push town.

I don't know why people have a town read on cakes, so I'd love it if someone explained it to me. Preferably something better than he's town.

Not sure on nacho, and I'd like for him to talk a bit more about his problems with Leon's claim.

Kraska is still probably town.

I feel opposite about kagami hammer and Wisdom post towards grey.

You like days that end while people are still trying to flesh out their reads?

You actually think that greyice is the type of player to give up if he's up against too many town reads? (If I remember correctly once you hammered yourself in a fit of being frustrated at the game state. When Kublai Khan said it was definitely a scum hammer, you pointed out that he was probably scum from his reaction to you. Thinking the reasoning sounds right doesn't fit with someone who has hammered themselves in a fit of frustration as town.)

[Tammy]

Their interactions yesterday felt weird.

[Tammy]

You actually think that greyice is the type of player to give up if he's up against too many town reads?

I don't understand why you've fixated on that and that's what is probably making me worry. It's not like that was the reason I was scumreading Grey

You used that as part of your reasoning to push a lynch through. I don't believe you believe that reasoning. Your actions and your reasonings is why I'm worried.

You have absolutely no idea what I think about and how I read the game if that is making you worry.

[Tammy]

I don't get what the big deal with Kagami's hammer is either. What information do you feel was being gathered that the hammer interrupted?

I'm not going to answer stupid questions.

[Tammy]

Tammy has made me a little worried though. I was expecting her to share my opinion about Nacho and not make a big deal out of my stabbing

I'm concerned about Nacho, but considering the day got cut fucking short yesterday one of the tools I use to read him was taken away from me.

Why wouldn't I be concerned about your stab on Bulba? I love how people claim to have these weird expectations on how I play when they don't know or pay attention to things that I concern myself with. I look at people's actions. If you'd had stabbed GreyIce, I'd be concerned only because I have a vig shot as well and I'd be trying to figure out if my limitations could make up for there being two on the town side. I'd be frustrated a bit because I value a town GreyIce to a game, but I'd understand it. I don't understand the bulba shot, and I had pointed out that his paranoia on you looked genuine. The shot on him doesn't make sense to me.

[Tammy]

not seeing how that's a stupid question

yes, I used that, I was being confbiased. Have you never seen townies confbias is what you're telling me?

No, I have. You could have just said that when I called it out for crap reasoning, instead you tried to use it as a basis of being paranoid of me.

[Tammy]

Ok wisdom who do you think is scum other than nacho

Im not sure
Maybe Peregrine
I can never be confident in reading Cakez though i really want to think hes town here
And then theres Tammy whose last posts feel off key

Still town.

[Tammy]

If you think I wouldn't be troubled by it, then you haven't been paying enough attention to how I approach the game or understanding why I'm bothered by it.

[Tammy]

Hopefully
P-edit: yes, it's part of why I townread him

Kinda liked this response though.

[Tammy]

Nacho - Why is Wisdom's theory about Leon being a lyncher on town indicative of him scum?

[Tammy]

I'm not entirely moved by the argument that nacho is scum because he thinks you're scum. I do get being frustrated as Nacho, who reads me better than most and can identify when I am really in truly town, has gone paranoid on me and suspected me when I've been town. I've often freaked out and thought he was scum for it, usually in part because I've done things that I can't/don't do as scum and so I've thought that it should be abundantly obvious to him. Last few times he's done it to me, he's been town.

I am concerned about him but there is ~something~ holding me back from a complete scum read there. Not gonna talk about that something right now because I'm trying to work out the options and whether or not it should impact my reads.

[Tammy]

I'm also concerned about farside.

[Tammy]

I'm also concerned about farside.

You're the first one to say this I believe. Why? I'm intrigued because I townread a lot of people and not her.

I'm not sure I can put my finger on it. I think I dismissed my concerns yesterday that she just didn't feel right in part because I was concerned about shadow and everyone is calling her town.

But as I think about the game, if my concerns about cakez and wisdom are wrong then I can't ignore my concerns on farside.

[Tammy]

Their interactions yesterday felt weird.

What about today's interactions? My first impression was that Nacho was trying to appeal to Cakez to change his mind, but I wouldn't put it past Nacho to theatre that shit up with his buddy

Well, I've followed the past couple of games where cakez has tunneled the hell out of nacho when he's been town. His conviction in those reads was pretty strong. I started worrying about cakez yesterday when he didn't have that type of conviction, and then I wondered if their interaction yesterday was was playing into that to make them not look like buddies. I thought cakez vote on nacho at the start of the day was him bussing, but I'm not sure about the interaction today. I think it could go either way. And yeah, I do think he'd theater it up some, but I could also see him trying to manipulate cakez; I could also see frustrated town.

[Tammy]

Kraska is quite a decent town read.

[Tammy]

If nacho is scum, farside came into today planning to bus if they're scum together. Yesterday she just kept saying that shadow was null and got after bulba for voting him for no reason.

[Tammy]

Oh my early game theory was so so very wrong. I had an early theory that scum talked about nacho being a strong player and that's why Wraith had him as super strong town and agreeing with him even though he was scum reading him, and that's why bulba wanted to talk to nacho early game about wisdom. They were both town.

[Tammy]

Tammy if nacho's scum...who do you think he's most likely to kill night 1?

I'd kinda be interested in hearing nacho's response to that before I say what I think.

[Tammy]

And yeah your avatar is a bit disturbing :p

[Tammy]

Wisdom how long has it been since you and nacho played together?

[Tammy]

Nacho - What are your thoughts about people not named Wisdom?

[Tammy]

Tammy if nacho's scum...who do you think he's most likely to kill night 1?

I'd kinda be interested in hearing nacho's response to that before I say what I think.

Kagami.

See now going into night as I was contemplating the possibility of nacho!scum this is one of two kills I was expecting if nacho was scum. I wasn't expecting him to kill me except in the instance because of my vig shot, but since it's limited and I might never be able to use it, it doesn't pose a threat to him right this minute. The other possibility is if he was going to have to spread absolute bullshit today that he knew I'd call him out on, but kagami and wisdom are also here and likely to call him out and had expressed in thread doubts about him whereas I had not. We typically avoid killing each other night one, and considering how few my town games are recently I'd be surprised that he did try to kill me last night. I could see it if I were a threat, but I hadn't even come close to fleshing out my reads or those of the leftover pile. So this is kinda leaving me a ball of hrm.

I considered the possibility of a Leon shot. If scum have xykon as Leon says, and they very likely do, they might want him out of the way. His one shot vig was being used up night one which would leave his one-shot flavor cop for night two and a possible outing on night three. But this kill attempt seems pretty unlikely? They knew they were losing one in shadow to Leon's vig, so they'd be one down already.

The other option is that they no killed in order to make wisdom look like scum who has a day kill or traded his night kill for a day kill, ala GreyIce's suggestion. Or they no killed to make someone look town. Both these options seem unlikely.

Or there's some other explanation for the missing night kill that I'm not considering.

I guess this is a lot of words to say that if Nacho is scum and he did what I think he did last night, it's unexpected and I'm confused.

[Tammy]

Nope, I saw it.

[Tammy]

Ugh this is the part where I start doubting my read

The question is whether it's a legit scum narrative for scum nacho to lay low-ish until he's under pressure and then start putting in lots of genuine-looking and thoughttful analysis. I don't know nacho that well, but I'm leaning towards that makes sense as a narrative.

As for the points themselves, they're a lot better than what I was seeing before. I'll look into them in a little bit.

He has done it before. His laying low at the moment is not alignment relevant though, and he's also just as likely to not do much for a period of time and then have spurts of analysis as town.

[Tammy]

Wisdom how long has it been since you and nacho played together?

I think Machina was the last one, a little less than a year ago

Ah okay kagami just had us listed as tammy and nacho, that's why it wasn't showing up.

I was looking back a bit at games that I knew you guys had suspected each other in to see if he has misread you. Didn't have time to look at a bunch but I did look at Saki in which you tunneled nacho with a bunch of town!nacho would never do this, wouldn't question this, would see this, etc. and nacho was in fact town.

I was hoping to see something since then that you had gotten what nacho would and wouldn't do correct. Machina is a hard one to go by since it was a hydra of the two of us and we both had a similar scum read for the majority of day one.

[Tammy]

I've been thinking about my cakez concerns and I think part of my issues there is also his kind of lowballing a scum read on kraska (recently retracted I know because of that post), but not really doing anything about it. Cakez recently caught kraska in family mafia when kraska was being widely town read and got a guilty with his track on her. I'd expect if he was in fact scum reading her to be a little more emboldened by that recent catch to push on her a bit more strongly if he was in fact scum reading her.

[Tammy]

Yeah I need to step back I'm a bit pissy with infinity and it's coming across in all my post.

i know what happened in Saki but at least there Nacho didn't doubt I was town for one second

I saw that too. And I looked at z mafia where nacho caught you as scum and you didn't react in this way when he caught you. Though that was two years ago, I imagine scum you is a bit more bolder now.

[Tammy]

since you're here, how do you feel about a Cakez/farside team?

I'm rereading the game with the mind that Nacho is town and that's the only thing that makes sense to me

I would not discount it.

I'm still trying to work out my thoughts on nacho.

[Tammy]

One thing I disliked was that farside expressed a scumread on both Infinity and Bulba for their "bad/manufactured" push on me, but said absolutely nothing to Cakez for doing the same (and Cakez's was arguably way more shallow)

In general I don't like their interactions.

I'd have to look back at that. I just remember not liking the push on infinity because it felt weird.

(I also disliked her pointing out that she thought bulba's paranoia on you looked fake when I said I liked it because she had been in mafiaception too. It's been niggling at me because in part I wondered if I disliked it because she disagreed with me, but I typically don't get bothered because people don't agree with me, unless I feel very strongly about it and I feel like I'm being dismissed by certain people. Maybe it's that she just wrote it off as fake and used the mafiaception thing as well but didn't seek to understand why I thought it looked genuine. Keeping bulba in the suspect pool would have been important at that point. IDK.)

[Tammy]

I've been thinking about my cakez concerns and I think part of my issues there is also his kind of lowballing a scum read on kraska (recently retracted I know because of that post), but not really doing anything about it. Cakez recently caught kraska in family mafia when kraska was being widely town read and got a guilty with his track on her. I'd expect if he was in fact scum reading her to be a little more emboldened by that recent catch to push on her a bit more strongly if he was in fact scum reading her.

My Nacho scumread was much stronger due to my Kraska scumread mostly being POE. I don't see the relation between Family Mafia and this since in Family Mafia I had a guilty on Kraska..

You like to use a lot of meta when you read people. This manifested in the cowboy game by you claiming that nacho never lurks or gets prodded as town for instance, so I would expect something like that in your scum read on kraska, especially since you caught kraska when nobody else was really looking in here direction. I'd expect if you actually had a scum read on kraska you'd be bringing in your experience and you catching her. Usually when someone catches a person, they get a sense that they can read them, but I'm not getting that sense at all. You just keep kind of floating a kraska scum read here but it doesn't seem to have much thought behind it.

[Tammy]

Nulltown for some of her early-game posting and looking like games I've played with her in the past
That said I don't think I've ever played with her as scum so the meta isn't really strong

What specifically looks town?

[Tammy]

Does farside use the buddying accusation regularly?

It feels like that's her go to for scum reading people this game, and it feels really overused. Most instances of buddying aren't actually buddying in the first place and scum and town both buddy. But here bulbazack was scum for buddying cake on the wisdom scum read. I think Infinity got the buddying accusation (don't quote me here, I'm taking a quick break from cooking and stuff so haven't gone back). I don't like the cakez is town for not looking like the bloody wars or whatever game, but bulbazack was scum for...looking like he looks in every game ever? What bugs me about the buddying accusations, and probably every time anyone uses them ever, is there's no attempt to look into why bulba would buddy cakez in the first place. Bulba voted Shadow and wasn't even voting wisdom, he had wraith as the next person he would vote but wanted to talk to nacho about wisdom. How does any of that translate into buddying cakez on the wisdom scum read? (I know that I had a theory about him potentially buddying nacho, but that was why I asked him questions partly because in team mafia bulba wasn't interested in nacho's meta read on me, so it through me off when he was looking to talk to nacho about wisdom, but his answers seemed fine enough.) But seriously why wouldn't scum bulba just buddy wisdom if he was going to buddy anybody?

I hate when people discredit people's reads on someone as just being on a lurker. Shadow's posts thought they were few had my gut tingling, and there was enough to go off of to get a scum read there. I've noticed a bunch of times when town correctly identifies a scum lurker, their teammates like to discredit the push as being on a lurker even after they've flipped scum.

Cakez - I don't care about what your read on kraska is now, I care about what it was before she made that post. You had her as a scum read yesterday up until today. But it was kinda yeah probably kraska, but you weren't really pushing it, which is what read off to me.

And I'm not convinced that nacho is town here. I need him here and posting about stuff besides wisdom. I don't hold shadow and his lack of interactions with him against him. It's hard to really do that for anyone right now when the day was cut short before that could really pan out. Usually I would say that Nacho would have bussed shadow immediately when he looked scummy, but he hasn't been bussing as much as he usually does so that doesn't really help.

Be back in a bit, gotta go back to cooking.

[Tammy]

Also Happy Thanksgiving to whomever is celebrating

[Tammy]

I'll be here tomorrow, probably maybe, and hopefully nacho will have posted then.

[Tammy]

Okay, I need to catch up but it might not happen in full until tomorrow, but in the interest of clarity I'm just going to out someone else.

I am also bulletproof and Kraska is my neighbor.

Kraska was informed about my role and the limitations of it in her role pm. She is not mentioned in mine, except to say I have a neighbor.

There is nothing about my bulletproof having a certain restriction in my role pm, but Kraska says that she was informed of a restriction. (This part has been bugging me a bit). Kraska has also told me what enables my vig shot.

Okay there I needed to get that off my chest. I will hopefully be back today, but Monday's are hard for me so probably tomorrow.

[Tammy]

*im going to out something else.

[Tammy]

Was hoping for something way more from Nacho.

He's probably just scum

[Tammy]

ffs my bad
I just looked at his other games and he's definitely posting a LOT more in other games then here....

I'm frustrated that he's not posting here, but this is a bit exaggerative. He's in one other game here and he posted in that one game over the course of an hour or so.

Infinity I wasn't saying he's scum because he didn't catch up, I'm saying he's probably scum because he's just probably scum. He's clearly following along as he wanted Leon to full claim. He could have responded to any other thing as well and he didn't.

Far side what do you think of kraska's role intersection with mine?

Nacho - I feel like you must have felt in three little pigs right now. I think you're scum, but I really don't want you to be and I don't know if I'm partly thinking you're scum because I'm so frustrated waiting for you to talk about someone who is not wisdom. Actually you are also giving me the feeling you gave me at gog too.

[Tammy]

I'm heading to the rink and then work, so a proper catch up will have to wait until later.

[Tammy]

Anybody who fights with a pointy thing could potentially stab someone.

[Tammy]

Far side - Kraska was informed of my role and how my vig shot gets enabled.

Also do you really not know that her number 1 scum read is cakez?

[Tammy]

have I said nothing interested or is this a pretend tammy isn't in the game type of game?

[Tammy]

*interesting

[Tammy]

kay

What do you think about kraska's role knowing what my role is?

[Tammy]

I actually wasn't expecting a full catchup on Monday. I was expecting something more than telling leon to full claim though.

[Tammy]

I actually wasn't expecting a full catchup on Monday. I was expecting something more than telling leon to full claim though.

What were you expecting?

post 1790, Tammy"]I was expecting something more than telling leon to full claim though.[/quote]

[Tammy]

Was hoping for something way more from Nacho.

He's probably just scum

I thought it was funny that you brought up that you felt like me in Three Little Pigs because my first thought when I read this was that I understood how you felt in Three Little Pigs (although I'm obviously not as annoyed as you were). I understand why you were expecting the full catchup to happen Monday, but I don't think that it not happening should be a surprise and I don't think that "he is scum and putting this game off because he is scum" is a reasonable explanation for an absence there.

I probably can't post why I think this is a slimy post until tomorrow but I never said you're putting this game off because you're scum and I think you know that.

The jazz hands, the energy, the town aura just aren't hitting it. It's bugging me.

[Tammy]

Yes you're right because that is all I've said about you this entire game day, and Kraska definitely didn't point out I expressed paranoia of you in the neighborhood.

[Tammy]

You were reducing my suspicion to something that seemed ridiculous so you could brush it aside.

[Tammy]

Which boils down to she's familiar with me and my schedule so I'd imagine that she'd understand better why the Monday catchup didn't happen than other people would.

There's still stuff I don't really understand but it's better if you just talk to her about it at this point.

If I were saying he was scum because he posted elsewhere or didn't catch up here, it would be very hypocritical and annoying of me. I don't think those things are alignment indicative in general. They aren't for me, and I've gotten very frustrated when people (including him very recently) have tried to use that against me, especially if they know my schedule. Not only is it not alignment indicative for me, it's not for him and I know that and we've discussed those kinds of tells.

So, if that's what I was saying, it would be annoying. But that's not what I was saying.

I was frustrated that he didn't show up here and that frustration exacerbated my concern about this alignment, but the actual act or absence of catching up is not alignment indicative in and of itself. He can post a fuckton as either alignment and he can lurk as either alignment. He can post in one game and not another as either alignment. I know that; he knows I know that.

Now why I think it's slimy is I think he knows I wasn't saying that. I had already expressed concerns about him. I had also told you earlier that his earlier inactivity and then burst of activity was not necessarily alignment indicative as he could do that as either alignment. (I said his lack of activity was not alignment relevant.) And when Cakez was trying to accuse him of dodging this game and posting a bunch elsewhere, which he's still being hypberbolic about as it wasn't dozens of posts, I defended him from that accusation. I also said that I didn't know if my scum read in part was due to frustration to him not being around.

So with that in mind, I don't see where he gets my post to mean that you didn't catch up therefore you're scum. I can see a scum him latching on to the thing that would be nonalignment indicative to throw me off though.


I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I've got to get ready for work. I'll be back in a little bit probably, later tonight definitely!

[Tammy]

Now why I think it's slimy is I think he knows I wasn't saying that.

I misunderstood it in the moment, am aware of what you are saying right now. I know that you are aware when lurking is alignment indicative and when it isn't, but that doesn't mean that you won't get flashes of paranoia for reasons that ultimately end up being silly. I don't feel like I'm latching onto anything here; I made a comment that I thought it was kind of amusing that we were experiencing a bit of a role reversal from the MTGS game and you're the one who is saying that I'm misrepping and discrediting you, which doesn't make sense when the comment I made wasn't something that anyone here would pick up on because they didn't play that game.

No, the comment from mtgs was fine. But you literally said that I was calling you scum for not being here:

Was hoping for something way more from Nacho.

He's probably just scum

I thought it was funny that you brought up that you felt like me in Three Little Pigs because my first thought when I read this was that I understood how you felt in Three Little Pigs (although I'm obviously not as annoyed as you were). I understand why you were expecting the full catchup to happen Monday, but I don't think that it not happening should be a surprise and I don't think that "he is scum and putting this game off because he is scum" is a reasonable explanation for an absence there.

I'd probably not be having an issue with this is you had ended it with "surprise" because it's the last bit that bugs me.

[Tammy]

Basically nacho I'm thinking about the last time I saw you as scum, at GOG, when I caught your partner in part for SK hunting and you dismissed it because you thought it was an SK kill also while perfectly well knowing that my argument was the he stopped scum hunting and was SK hunting.

As for why I'm also getting the feeling of gog is just the disconnection you feel here. I did like your energy day one; unfortunately it was ended too soon before I could really see you interact and how you would approach end of day.

[Tammy]

Either it's Nacho/Cakez or Leon is Xykon and it's Leon/Cakez or Leon/Nacho (former more likely)

I don't think scum would
A. be allowed to shoot a teammate
b. shoot a teammate

So how is Leon a consideration for mafia?

Leon had to shoot shadowez, and some mods do allow scum to shoot a teammate.

[Tammy]

Basically nacho I'm thinking about the last time I saw you as scum, at GOG, when I caught your partner in part for SK hunting and you dismissed it because you thought it was an SK kill also while perfectly well knowing that my argument was the he stopped scum hunting and was SK hunting.

As for why I'm also getting the feeling of gog is just the disconnection you feel here. I did like your energy day one; unfortunately it was ended too soon before I could really see you interact and how you would approach end of day.

Plus, if you were the NK last night, Nacho makes more sense as scum, since you guys have that readback-feedback-reverb thing going on.

Me possibly being the nk last night is the thing that is giving me the most pause where nacho is concerned. He'd have little reason to kill me besides the vig shot I might possibly have. I didn't express any doubts on him yesterday; I only expressed them last night in the neighborhood. In order for him to have known about it, Kraska would have had to tell him, which would mean he also knows I'm bulletproof so it would be a wasted shot unless he was trying to confirm kraska as town. Except he knows I get paranoid and would entertain this possibility.

Regardless I just can't understand why he would shoot me night one.

[Tammy]

Basically nacho I'm thinking about the last time I saw you as scum, at GOG, when I caught your partner in part for SK hunting and you dismissed it because you thought it was an SK kill also while perfectly well knowing that my argument was the he stopped scum hunting and was SK hunting.

As for why I'm also getting the feeling of gog is just the disconnection you feel here. I did like your energy day one; unfortunately it was ended too soon before I could really see you interact and how you would approach end of day.

Plus, if you were the NK last night, Nacho makes more sense as scum, since you guys have that readback-feedback-reverb thing going on.

Me possibly being the nk last night is the thing that is giving me the most pause where nacho is concerned. He'd have little reason to kill me besides the vig shot I might possibly have. I didn't express any doubts on him yesterday; I only expressed them last night in the neighborhood. In order for him to have known about it, Kraska would have had to tell him, which would mean he also knows I'm bulletproof so it would be a wasted shot unless he was trying to confirm kraska as town. Except he knows I get paranoid and would entertain this possibility.

Regardless I just can't understand why he would shoot me night one.

If you were scum and Nacho was town, would you leave him around?

If nightklills aren't rolefishing or a group decision or a game reason, I find they are mostly personal (as in XXXX knows me too well, not as in I hate XXXX).

Yep. We tend to leave each other alive night one especially.

[Tammy]

Oh shit it's Robb Stark

I was just over at mafiauniverse trying to figure that out.

So, nacho if you're scum reading cakez, how come you ignored my concerns on cakez?

[Tammy]

I'd probably not be having an issue with this is you had ended it with "surprise" because it's the last bit that bugs me.

When your paranoia spiked because of my absence, that was the thought process behind it, no?

Are you not reading the game in whole? It certainly doesn't feel that way. It feels like you're doing that iso thing and that's why you're missing stuff.

All day today I've talked about not having you figured out, concerned about you, kraska said that I expressed paranoia on you in the neighborhood.

After I made that post (and in the three little pigs post that you commented about), I defended you against cakez' dodging the game post. I said I was frustrated. I said that you were following along and could have commented on anything but didn't.

And when Infinity interpreted it that way I literally said:

Infinity I wasn't saying he's scum because he didn't catch up, I'm saying he's probably scum because he's just probably scum.

He's clearly following along as he wanted Leon to full claim. He could have responded to any other thing as well and he didn't.

I can make that big for you if you want, but I think you know exactly what you're doing and should stop.

[Tammy]

Oh shit it's Robb Stark

I was just over at mafiauniverse trying to figure that out.

So, nacho if you're scum reading cakez, how come you ignored my concerns on cakez?

I didn't think I ignored them. I disagreed with your reasoning re: kraska because Cakez got a guilty on her, he didn't really catch her and some of his lack of conviction reminded me of Real Folks Blues.

Yeah, you did ignore them. Why do you think I asked if this was the game where you were just going to ignore me if you actually interacted with anything that I said that had anything to do with the game except for you willfully misinterpreting me saying you were probably scum as me saying you didn't catch up and so you were scum and fucking harping on that???

You're just scum and you know exactly what you're doing!

[Tammy]

VOTE: nacho

[Tammy]

It's just fucking nacho.

[Tammy]

Like nacho here's the deal. I don't think this is your town play this game. I don't think that after seeming pretty joyous day one and talking about how town I was and how you wouldn't abandon me because we're finally on the same team that this is how you play. I don't think you ignore my posts. I don't think you ignore my concern about you. I don't think you ignore the suspicion I have. I don't think you harp on me saying that you're probably just scum and wanting me to point out more. I don't think that this is the continued conversation you have with me. I don't think you make me want to punch you through the computer screen.

I do think it's quite a bit different when we're town together. I do think you're just fucking scum here.

[Tammy]

Good for you.

[Tammy]

don't try to distract me from nacho right now.

[Tammy]

I'd probably not be having an issue with this is you had ended it with "surprise" because it's the last bit that bugs me.

When your paranoia spiked because of my absence, that was the thought process behind it, no?

Also this is why you're scum. You're trying to tell me what I'm thinking rather than asking. It's that kind of trolling bullshit you do to knock people off kilter. I know you're doing it, you know you're doing it. You are letting me down and engaging me in a conversation I don't think you would in the way you are if you are town.

You're asking the question here I've already answered as if you just don't know when you know exactly what I meant and as if you still don't even after I'd talked about it and what I meant and you said you understood it. You know this. I know this. You're just scum.

Maybe just maybe if you were town and you did pop in and make some posts that made me think you were town the paranoia that had been building since yesterday would be quelling. But no you weren't here and everyone else is making posts that look somewhat town and you're no here doing anything like that so there's nothing to make my paranoia about you go down. It didn't spike yesterday, it's been a constant concern of mine.

[Tammy]

What bothers me is you trying to write off my concern as something nonalignment indicative (I said you're scum because you weren't catching up) when I didn't say that and had clarified that that wasn't what I meant.

[Tammy]

Anyway I have to go

[Tammy]

Someone once told me the use of spicy was a scum tell.

(That someone was scum when he told me that.)

[Tammy]

I do think it's quite a bit different when we're town together. I do think you're just fucking scum here.

I don't think that you're understanding what I'm trying to say; it's not my intention to make you want to punch you through the computer screen because I never want to be that guy in a game but I do think maybe that you're not quite understanding what I'm getting at

Explain it then

[Tammy]

Someone once told me the use of spicy was a scum tell.

(That someone was scum when he told me that.)

not game related, but it's a running joke that stems from a mash where the whole scum team was abusing the use of "spicy" in a borderline inside joke lolcats as they were steamrolling the town (me included)

Ah. You were the one that told me that when I said spicy in the game of thrones game.

[Tammy]

tammy, him ignoring ur concerns about him earlier today means little bc there was nothing really to address there. its like u would come and say 'hmm i think nacho might be scum'. do u expect him to vacuously reassure u hes town? idk i just dont think its that big of a deal

Why are you running interference for nacho here? If you accept that we try not to kill each other night one, which you do since that your big lead into why he's town, then how can you not accept there is a certain expectation for types of interactions there?

Nacho literally pretending I'm not playing this game is a red flag. It's not about not commenting on the concerns I have about him, which I would expect him to in some fashion if he were town, but it's also about him not commenting about any of my thoughts on other people. I'd also funnily enough have expected him to respond to your post if he were town. I have suspicions on farside and suspicions on cakez, but he has not interacted with me on either of those things because he's pretending I'm not here. Now I didn't say that my suspicions on farside were starting to waver a bit, so there was no reason for him to not question me on my concern there or point out where he thought I was wrong. And there's absolutely no attempt to get me on cakez with him as he completely ignored my concerns on cakez, whom he's supposedly scum reading. Even if he disagrees with my reasons for my concerns, I'd expect some type of interaction with me about it.

He ignored all of that to only bother to interact with me when I pointed out that he was ignoring me. After yesterday being interested in talking to me about his reads and saying he wouldn't abandon me this game. Pretty much the only thing he has interacted with me about since I pointed out that he's pretending I'm not here is his interpretation of me saying he was scum because he wasn't here. Even after saying that he understands what I was referring to, even after me clarifying what I'm referring to, he's still more interested in trying to needle about that statement and absolutely nothing else.

I don't think a town him reads a post to him where I say he's letting me down and ignores that to again try to get me to say that I was calling him scum because he wasn't here. I think a town him knows exactly what I'm referring to and meaning and responds to it considering the one thing that we've been pointing out in our spate of recent games of being on the opposing side is the feeling of abandonment and how shitty it feels.

I'm town. He knows I'm town and rather than work with me, whom he supposedly enjoys playing with and respects how I read the game and people, is straight up pretending I'm not here except to focus on that one statement. That one statement that he can interact with me naturally on because him putting off a game is not alignment indicative. If he's town here, I'm just really disappointed.

[Tammy]

I think my patience is running out with leon.

[Tammy]

I'm not completely convinced that Wisdom is town though I'm certainly leaning that way. I forgot about the hated thing; that was one thing I did like yesterday as we have to lynch him before lylo anyway so.

[Tammy]

Wasn't trying to piggyback, it was a comment I wanted to make.

No. You quoted her post, you said "DING DING DING" like you agreed and understood what she was saying and then started talking about something completely different.

yes the ding ding ding was a comment on the quote and the other stuff was a separate comment
That's why I spaced them out

What were you dingdingdinging about?

[Tammy]

How is it I have a tenth the time I'd like because of personal emergencies that literally came up yesterday and I'm still outposting half the town.

Perhaps some of them are not town, and are quite happy with the direction things are going.

I also want to remind everyone of:
E6) Expect the unexpected. Do not assume that standard expectations are applicable to the game.

Which implies that we can expect at least one technically-not-bastard element in this game.

Do you think recruiting falls under this?

[Tammy]

We should get the replacement caught up and just lynch someone already. I think town is a little bit stuck. Not to mention the deadline obviously

Sorry panther someone else can do that because it's just too much to sift through for my brain now

ya no worries I'll get there. I never give cliffs when people ask, personally

you may or may not recall my penchant for focusing on small details, but this post of yours is pinging me

first sentence because it's like you're not considering that I could be scum. which makes me think you're scum that knows I'm town

second sentence because "town" vs. "we" tells etc. These aren't foolproof bc some people just talk like that, but it always jumps out at me

Ironically when infinity and I played together before, he used the you're not considering I could be scum tact to me when he was scum.

[Tammy]

I actually wasn't expecting a full catchup on Monday. I was expecting something more than telling leon to full claim though.

What were you expecting?

And I'm saying this because non-contribution drop-ins aren't exactly unusual from me when I'm not ready to catch up in a game; I like knowing what's going on when I'm posting reads and analysis regardless of alignment but avoiding a game until I'm ready to post in it also means that I'm occasionally gone for long periods of time and it tends to snowball into worse inactivity.

You are far more likely to want to be fully caught up in a game before posting as scum than you are as town. And usually even when you are making non contributive thoughts on a game they have something in them that helps me feel one way or another about your alignment. You were following along, you were obviously following along in some capacity so yes I expected something more/something different/something different feeling that Leon full claim.

[Tammy]

I'm still concerned about cakez too Kraska.

I just really can't understand how nacho can be town here. I really don't know what to think if he is.

I am wondering if he got recruited last night or something though.

[Tammy]

Nacho what kind of excitement does Kagami usually show as town that she's not showing here?

[Tammy]

Who else is scum then cakes?

[Tammy]

You said earlier that kagami was pretty obviously not scum. What changed?

[Tammy]

Never mind I see.

[Tammy]

Cakez - I thought that farside was null town to you?

[Tammy]

I'm at the level of depression right now that I'm probably just going to prodge at best.

If you're town, this is the part of the show where you need to be rereading the thread and making some compelling arguments about why your scumreads are scum. You may not think you can improve on your existing stances (or may be unwilling to), but you're certainly capable of drawing some "if we assume <my_scumread> is scum, then <other_player> is likely scum because of the following interaction: ..." which you should have been thinking about anyway.

Alternatively, you can present a very compelling case about why you are town. While you weren't really my favorite lynch prior to this post, you are now. I remain very open-minded, though. Frankly, farside is probably the only player I really like for "highly probably town."

Why did this post make wraith your favorite lynch?

[Tammy]

Because it's a dreadful post.

Why is someone expressing that they are depressed dreadful?

[Tammy]

Depression is irrelevant, the sentiment is equally dreadful if you replace "depression" with "excessive banana consumption" and I'd respond the same in those circumstances.

Depression is only irrelevant if you pretend you're not playing this game with humans who have real human emotions and expect everyone to behave like automatons.

It just seemed like an unnecessarily cold response in return and the response that it was dreadful when I asked about it after he replaced out due to the state he was in, has flipped town and therefore not lying feels very wrong. I'm trying to figure out if that's just you being mechanical and forgetting that humans do play this game, or if you were just looking for any opportunity to make someone look bad.

You've played with GreyIce before. Why did you think he was supposed to step back and think about his wisdom suspicion after being wrong about his bulba suspicion?

[Tammy]

Also I was just coming in here to posit that nacho and cakez were probably both just scum because neither seems especially interested in getting their big scum read lynched, cakez' posting took some of that thunder away, but it's very lukewarm.

[Tammy]

UNVOTE:

[Tammy]

Also I was just coming in here to posit that nacho and cakez were probably both just scum because neither seems especially interested in getting their big scum read lynched, cakez' posting took some of that thunder away, but it's very lukewarm.

How can you say I'm not interested in pushing nacho? He's at L-1 now lol

*twitch*

That is not from your doing, and he was not at l-1 when I made that post. You were in the lead.

[Tammy]

Nacho literally pretending I'm not playing this game is a red flag. It's not about not commenting on the concerns I have about him, which I would expect him to in some fashion if he were town, but it's also about him not commenting about any of my thoughts on other people. I'd also funnily enough have expected him to respond to your post if he were town. I have suspicions on farside and suspicions on cakez, but he has not interacted with me on either of those things because he's pretending I'm not here. Now I didn't say that my suspicions on farside were starting to waver a bit, so there was no reason for him to not question me on my concern there or point out where he thought I was wrong. And there's absolutely no attempt to get me on cakez with him as he completely ignored my concerns on cakez, whom he's supposedly scum reading. Even if he disagrees with my reasons for my concerns, I'd expect some type of interaction with me about it.

The parts where you're guessing that I would give input and didn't are pieces where you've had throwaway thoughts and haven't really been fully engaged in the thread. Part of how I've always read you is to see what you approach me about, to see what you're talking to me about; the feeling of abandonment is when you're not reaching out to me about things that bother you. I did address your Farside concerns when you had them; I didn't address Cakez stuff immediately because I wanted to glance into it and forgot to bring it up later; the majority of your scumread there has been based on interactions with me you've never expanded on so don't really know what to do there.

The problem with this response is that I asked you a question, you ignored it. Yes, I had some random thoughts, but you've not ignored them before. Where are you addressing my far side concerns?

And no that's not even true. You wouldn't need to read me today and I don't approach you like a puppy asking you to respond to my thoughts. You usually just respond to what I put in the thread. If you wanted me to expand on something why do t you ask??? That's not even what the feeling of abandonment is.

You just can't possibly be town here.

[Tammy]

Why the unvote?

I don't want a hammer just yet.

[Tammy]

Nacho literally pretending I'm not playing this game is a red flag. It's not about not commenting on the concerns I have about him, which I would expect him to in some fashion if he were town, but it's also about him not commenting about any of my thoughts on other people. I'd also funnily enough have expected him to respond to your post if he were town. I have suspicions on farside and suspicions on cakez, but he has not interacted with me on either of those things because he's pretending I'm not here. Now I didn't say that my suspicions on farside were starting to waver a bit, so there was no reason for him to not question me on my concern there or point out where he thought I was wrong. And there's absolutely no attempt to get me on cakez with him as he completely ignored my concerns on cakez, whom he's supposedly scum reading. Even if he disagrees with my reasons for my concerns, I'd expect some type of interaction with me about it.

The parts where you're guessing that I would give input and didn't are pieces where you've had throwaway thoughts and haven't really been fully engaged in the thread. Part of how I've always read you is to see what you approach me about, to see what you're talking to me about; the feeling of abandonment is when you're not reaching out to me about things that bother you. I did address your Farside concerns when you had them; I didn't address Cakez stuff immediately because I wanted to glance into it and forgot to bring it up later; the majority of your scumread there has been based on interactions with me you've never expanded on so don't really know what to do there.

Actually I just don't understand how this is your response to me if you're town, maybe the problem is just me. Maybe my expectations are just wrong. Idk

[Tammy]

I just don't know what to think right now. None of nacho's interactions with me today make sense for him as town, absolutely none of them. Even his description of how we normally interact is wrong.

But he claimed vt which he almost never does as scum. But the only way he is town and the interaction with me makes any sense is if he decided over night he had some issue with me playing.

[Tammy]

I quickly skimmed at work.

I don't understand why Pere blocked Nacho both nights, but pere is pere so who knows.

The prospect that Nacho is actually town is depressing. I don't expect to ever try to interact with him in any meaningful way in a game again if that was his town interaction with me this game. I just still don't understand how that can come from him as town.

Pere - How did you think Nacho was strongly pushing cakez?????????? He wasn't and I noted that neither of them actually seemed much interested in getting their scum reads lynched. Kraska put forth the most effort in getting that lynch to happen while nacho barely limpwristed a vote on to him and didn't try to rally any votes whatsoever, not even at the end.

i need to think about all the claims because they don't feel right and I am indeed O-Chul.

Be back in a bit.

[Tammy]

I don't think the scum team are villains that naturally work together. Tsukiko is extremely loyal to xykon, but tarquin thinks he's a silly side villain and they are on the same team. (I was postulating more than one team but then it would make sense for them to be opposing teams.)

[Tammy]

You guys are fully flavor confirmed to each other, Tammy?

No.

I'm only told I have a neighbor, we play go!

Kraska is informed of me in her role pm and told me what enables my vig shot as well as something about the restriction of my bp. My role says nothing about the bp being restricted (and it does not have the NK clause that Leon has said his has), but it does tell me that my vig shot is disabled right now, but not what enables it. (And it is not strongman because it has the standard if it's successful clause in it.)

[Tammy]

That doesn't mean he did shit to push it. It looks to me like a lame ass buss but not feeling it. He couldn't vote farside because he'd been arguing for farside as town since day one.

Kraska pushed that lynch through, nacho sunbathed on it.

[Tammy]

You did too, sure, but kraska was making the big frustrated posts that we needed to lynch cakez.

[Tammy]

That doesn't mean he did shit to push it. It looks to me like a lame ass buss but not feeling it. He couldn't vote farside because he'd been arguing for farside as town since day one.

Kraska pushed that lynch through, nacho sunbathed on it.

Yeah, but we are not trying to figure if Kraska is scum, we are trying to figure if Nacho is scum.

Bussing puts him a step closer to losing, not a step closer to winning.

it would be easier to fake a farsdei change of heart then to try to overcome a deficit of losing another scumbuddy.

and if he's scum, did he just try to kill you again?

Nacho is super fond of bussing though.

[Tammy]

I didn't even know kraska was monster in the darkness.

[Tammy]

That doesn't mean he did shit to push it. It looks to me like a lame ass buss but not feeling it. He couldn't vote farside because he'd been arguing for farside as town since day one.

Kraska pushed that lynch through, nacho sunbathed on it.

Yeah, but we are not trying to figure if Kraska is scum, we are trying to figure if Nacho is scum.

Bussing puts him a step closer to losing, not a step closer to winning.

it would be easier to fake a farsdei change of heart then to try to overcome a deficit of losing another scumbuddy.

and if he's scum, did he just try to kill you again?

Nacho is super fond of bussing though.

Bussing as a tool is fine. Bussing when there are other options? Color me skeptical.

That just colors you someone who hasn't played with nacho that much.

[Tammy]

My first guess for Kraska was Lien, but I'm very rusty on the comic and now that I read it it makes more sense.

[Tammy]

Pere - For reference recently nacho and I played as a scum hydra. After losing our partners to a day one lynch and a night one vig shot, on day three he bussed our odd night vig partner when he could have easily lynched someone else.

Nacho gets too much town credit for bussing for him not to because people go oh bus there isn't beneficial. Him sticking a limp wristed vote on cakez also didn't help push cakez to get lynched because he even had a half-assed vote there.

[Tammy]

okay pere, I'm sure you know nacho better than I do

[Tammy]

Here's my concern, their interaction looked fake. Nacho never once tried to get me on the cakez wagon even though I was scum reading cakez and was talking about my suspicions there, and he never tried to get anyone to get on that wagon. He voted him. That is the only thing he did. Now he and cakez by that point were the talk of the day, and soon after that vote nacho went to L-1. Even at l-1 he didn't try to get cakez lynched, he was very passive about the whole thing. Cakez, likewise wasn't exactly trying to get nacho lynched. None of this makes sense.

[Tammy]

i still dont get the nokill though

maybe panther didnt realize tammy is bp?

I was wondering about this.

I did not claim bp until during the day before panther replaced in. If nacho is town (fucking kill me if this is the case) then their discussion in the mafia chat would have been that kraska was bp since she softed that day one. If he didn't read the game, he wouldn't have known.

But then who was shot night one?

[Tammy]

Panther is the only one with a claimed role, maybe his claim will shed some light on this.

Think scum!Nacho, afraid that I'll flavorcop him and disprove his claim, would've tried to shoot me, hoping that my BP was a bluff?

I thought that they potentially shot you night one to remove the bp to kill you the next night so you couldn't flavor cop anyone. But you lived so.

[Tammy]

Thog would make sense as scum though.

[Tammy]

The scum team could be a hodgepodge

A member of the linear guild
xykon's team
tarquin

[Tammy]

Would be kinda funny is Roy was told xykon was definitely somewhere and he goes there searching when he's not in the game at all though.

Or xykon is in the game and is a lyncher on Roy while Roy is a lyncher on xykon?

[Tammy]

Do you think Tammy was shot last night?

probably
do you?

If she was, that would indicate one thing.

If she was not, it would indicate another.

That makes this post make sense. I'd been trying to decipher the meaning

[Tammy]

I would like to yell bout that stupid wick ass lynch yesterday, but I've had a couple and am in a good mood right now, so consider this a slap on the wrist and a bad boy!

Also, I have my gun now.

[Tammy]

When I'm at my computer I'll give more of my thoughts.

[Tammy]

visit

I picked up in this day two, which indicated that infinity was roled. Night two I expected either infinity or Kraska to die. I can't imagine anyone actually reading and paying attention to the game in full shooting nacho, a claimed vt who was widely scum read over Kraska, who was the most active pusher of cake (yes, wisdom I know you pushed it too but Kraska was passionate about it) or infinity who was obviously roled.

[Tammy]

Also, I have reason to believe someone visited me last night.

Whoops sorry.

[Tammy]

At night Kraska was back to thinking wisdom based on roles and setup, which had me thinking about the setup and role interactions. I'll muse about that at a computer.

[Tammy]

I'm trying to eat on my break because I am starving, but I'm not sure where our wires got crossed. I'll do my best to figure it out overnight (if I live until then), and if I don't, we can talk about it after the game. I'm not upset at you, I'm sorry for where I've been annoyed or snippy this game but as I'm sure you can imagine being pushed constantly today hasn't been the most fun or the most exciting way this game could go for me.

Did you do this?

And here's the thing. I've spent a lot of time thinking about past games and how you've interacted with me when you've been town/we've both been town. It's not like this. I don't understand how you could be confused where our wires got crossed because I think I've been very clear about what has been bugging me about your interaction with me.

The only thing I can buy you being confused about is where I started scum reading you. I started getting concerned about you from your reaction to Leon's claim. It was a small thing, something that just didn't feel quite right which is why I asked you to talk about it on day two. I didn't get a chance to talk about it day one. But I didn't like it and that concern started to fester. You weren't here, and while the lack of you is not alignment indicative, the lack of you does not help to quell concerns once they've started. It did not help to see you posting in town games displaying the type of energy that was missing here or that your gog scum game had the same type of energy as here.

I started off the day worried you could be scum but wanting to give you a chance especially if it was silly paranoia. But I also started off the day thinking it could be between wisdom and cakez. My wisdom suspicion started to alleviate a little and quite frankly felt overwhelming, so I went elsewhere. Started doubting cakez as scum a little which pit more of my focus on farside, but her frustration looked real, which brought me back to cakez and in the midst of all that there was nothing from you. Then all you did was list something that lacked any sort of energy and I resigned myself to believe something I'd been hoping against, that you were just scum.

I don't think you were just snippy with me because you'd been pushed all day. While I vaguely suspected you I had argued to get you off of l-1 early and had defended you against some of wisdoms points. I asserted you were scum without any reasoning, which considering I often have some paranoid moment in the game where I believe you are scum, it's not unlikely, but I think you know if you are town I'm going to be the one to see it.

Your interaction with me reminds me so much of tales of you where you just basically troll interacted with me instead of interact with anything of substance. Your description of how we normally interact makes no sense unless I've been smoking crack for a long time. We're more collaborative than anything else. I do come to you with reads sometimes, yes, but I also throw out my thoughts, which are not throwaway I don't think, and you usually comment especially when I'm showing paranoia ot going off the deep end on something I shouldn't. We do read each other based on how we interact with each other, and there are points we've overlooked in the past that were obvious after. You don't just read me based on what I bring to you I'm uncomfortable with, and you already had me as town and there should be no doubt about that one anyway.

Some of your interaction with me has felt like part troll/part gaslight. I just don't understand how this could be your interaction with me as town. I'm just completely flabbergasted if this is your town game.

I offer you a challenge though. I have a gun now, and if we don't lynch you and the game doesn't end with that lynch, give me a reason not to shoot you.

[Tammy]

then you agree it was nacho shooting leon?

I have no idea. Kraska did suggest the possibility of if I was shot night one them shooting me again thinking the restriction I mentioned was one-shot, but I don't really but that either.

I just don't know.

[Tammy]

Does anybody really think it's possible we have four group scum?

(I don't by the way but I'm trying to make sense of stuff plan for possibilities.)

[Tammy]

Last night I rolestopped infinity.

If it was working with nacho according to your view why change it?

[Tammy]

Also have a bit of a problem with that being more than 2-shot by the way.

[Tammy]

Oh okay.

that settle the other possible thought i had that pere was a role blocker, even thought we had him double check and everything.

you played it fine though. You couldn't have known that pere was going to rs nacho two nights in a row, decide he saved him and then...not.

[Tammy]

although him rolestopping you while he's not two-shot makes sense.

[Tammy]

wait did you guys lynch already again?

[Tammy]

WHAT

THE

FUCK

This game is infuriating.

[Tammy]

haven't you been more than happy to do stuff tomorrow every single day???

[Tammy]

The thing I was toying with was that infinity really can't conftown too many people (was when I thought it was 2-shot for some reason) and Pere's role is both negative and positive utility. So it can save a person but it also possibly interferes with town actions, like the neopalitan.

Leon, I guess I'll just wait and see.

[Tammy]

if nacho is scum he's probably just bp otherwise why would leon have a strongman shot if he is as he says.

[Tammy]

Problem is wisdom's hated status which is something I wanted to talk about.

I want to shoot the fuck out of nacho if this doesn't end the game, but practicality has me wondering if I should shoot wisdom cuz hated.

[Tammy]

Quick check in from work. I shot nacho last night. Or tried to rather.

Be back later.

[Tammy]

The answer is simple. Nacho is lying.

[Tammy]

this is nacho trying to spread as much last minute confusion he can. He's lying.

Cakez had to have jkd shadow because nobody else got a story. It makes perfect sense for them to jk shadow and not leon because they would have wanted to keep shadow safe, but on the off chance he shot someone else leave him free to do that.

Nacho is almost definitely the bp xykon, who would not die by my vig shot or by wisdom's stab (I don't think I'd have died by Wisdom's stab I could be wrong), but would have died by Leon's vig shot.

My concern was that peregrine was his traitor and role stopped him again last night, but that's not the case.

pedit: the -ing in my roles are proper though, he enabled both my bp and my vig shot.

[Tammy]

and it totally fits the flavor. He jail keeps them and tells them a story.

[Tammy]

this conversation is actually rather silly because it doesn't actually go towards what is going on right now. He only jail kept shadow and failing that Leon. Which tells us nothing about the situation right now or am I missing something?

[Tammy]

Oh he's just trying to open up possibilities.

[Tammy]

OH we have to make peregrine scum in order for nacho to argue his way out of this cuz i shot him but lookie who's there posting!