Mini 1959 - Protomen Blitz : Game Over

[Reasonably Rational]

Cerb hasn't checked in since game started. I dropped him some thoughts on things so far.

@Yume - We might have a fruit basket situation. Don't say anything. Wait for confirmation.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Also just a head's up: Cerb is on vacation and I'm moving in a week, so please bear with us. Anything you want our thoughts on please throw out a bolded

@RR

to snag our attention. It will help a lot.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Hi all, on my way back to my friends from Blizzcon, which was amazing.

@Gork: I don't actually undedstand your Xiao thing, but I don't know Xiaos play at all. Is this more meta based, or just behavior x is always scum indicative?

@Xiao: I also don't understand your suspicion of drealm, or your decision to back off. Elaborate.

@Titus, AC, Alisae-hydra, and everyone else else who we've played with before: <3, and I apologize in advance for potentially doing less to maintain this hydra post count than I usually do. I'll be back home from Blizzco Sunday morning, but I have friends to catch up with etc all week long. I'll do my best though.

@Drealm: I'll need to check with Drixx, but I assume he's spoken with Titus about both our rl situations and thus that statement is NAI. Decent reasoning though.

Havo: I don't know you. Tell me how you play in a sentence.

Oh, and: Who thinks if they were confrown we'd definitely be able to win?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Did I not explain why I unvoted Dreamsicle?

The Tito and Dreamsicle interaction gives me a town feeling for Dreamsicle now anyways.
Tito seems more headstrong than the last time I played with her, and I’ve only played with town Tito. That’s about the extent of the content y’all gave me.

P Edit: wtf

THIS is not the same reason given in 105. In 105 you say the bs thing that gork is attacking you about, the whole "my unvote is occurring because nobody agrees with me, BUT I'm not moving my vote somewhere else to apply pressure there instead, I'm just gonna back down" thing. This second reason is much better, though still lacks details regarding what about that interaction makes you feel their town. If that interaction makes you think drealmerz is town, what does it tell you about Titus?

@Gork: I take issue with you walking back the strength and conviction in your initial push, while finding other things to be suspicious of. It pings a bit, in that it feels as though you know that first push was completely fabricated so you're preemptively dismissing it yourself before someone else calls you out on it, but reluctant to just drop the wagon as soon as someone questions you about it because that's suspicious. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, and you were just trying to outline your entire thought process for me, including your future realizations. :/
Nobody answered my question.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also: Hai Yume, ilu. Also, 214 is confusing. You say THEY neighborized you, then say YOU neighborized Titus, and idk if you're talking about one neighborizing action or two, or who initiated it. I also dunno if you should clarify that detail. Probably shouldn't actually, so I should probably just delete this bit calling attention to it, but fuck it.
-Cerb

Pedit: mmmm. So your unvote was indeed for reasons that looks to be purely consensus scumhunting? At what point are you going to push someone even if everyone is against you?

[Reasonably Rational]

Confusing post Furude. Implication of belief in scumminess, but the reason you're giving for scumminess is actually not...since their unvote is in line with the implication they made that they don't have anything on them...

Am I misreading that post?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

since their unvote is in line with the implication they made that they don't have anything on them...

Ok but it would have been a great way to start sorting them now wouldn't it?

If that's their style sure. Is it? Is this out of character?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@gork: I'm not particularly concerned atm, but I am making sure everyone else notices something that COULD be suspicious behavior. Haven't played with scum!you, so harder determination to make.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: Gorkington

You feel weird as fuck man. That last exchange is super o.o.

You're being way sillier than you were last time when we were town together.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

your first post about creating teams was bad but I'm used to you being bad, but wtf is this shit? outing someone else's ability? you can die, this sort of thing is incredibly scummy and if you're town doing it you're a giant liability.

how are you voting yume for this over me or xiao?
if youre not voting xiao out of principle of me being on the wagon because you think im scum, vote me instead of being a coward.

To be clear, the quoted post is fine. It's the one before that which feels strange blah blah.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Eh, I don't recall your vecna exchange being nearly as tongue in cheek.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Also, WHY IS NO ONE ANSWERING MY FUCKING QUESTION!!???

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hi all, on my way back to my friends from Blizzcon, which was amazing.

@Gork: I don't actually undedstand your Xiao thing, but I don't know Xiaos play at all. Is this more meta based, or just behavior x is always scum indicative?

@Xiao: I also don't understand your suspicion of drealm, or your decision to back off. Elaborate.

@Titus, AC, Alisae-hydra, and everyone else else who we've played with before: <3, and I apologize in advance for potentially doing less to maintain this hydra post count than I usually do. I'll be back home from Blizzco Sunday morning, but I have friends to catch up with etc all week long. I'll do my best though.

@Drealm: I'll need to check with Drixx, but I assume he's spoken with Titus about both our rl situations and thus that statement is NAI. Decent reasoning though.

Havo: I don't know you. Tell me how you play in a sentence.

Oh, and: Who thinks if they were confrown we'd definitely be able to win?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Confrown was obviously supposed to be conftown. ^^

-Cerb

Pedit: Evil Varsoon.

[Reasonably Rational]

Interesting assertion. So you think you're so wrong that scum will kill you early because doing so won't throw suspicion on any of them? :p

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

So this is kinda awkward. Cerb is at Blizzcon and I can't get his attention. YOLO or whatever the youngins say these days:

Xiao is not scum!

How do I know? I know because we're masons with them. Yes for realsies. Mod confirmed to one another and everything.

So get the hell of Xiao and re-calibrate.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

drixx
im telling you upfront
that if this is a fakeclaim
and youre town
im blacklisting you for good.

dont do this if youre just townreading xiao.

It's not a fake claim. I don't put my reads (especially day one reads) above anyone else so I don't do fake claim shit like that.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

@Xiao: I got Cerb's attention for a minute. Check PT and do the thing.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

unvote

i was literally reading both of you on opposite scumteams.
q.q

Every time we're masons we get misread as scum. Every. Fucking. Time. As soon as we got our Role PM I told Cerb that I was going to end up claiming day one because either we were gonna get run up or Xiao would.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

"The man who turns the wheels, they will follow
Anywhere he leads."

-Albert Wily

VOTECOUNT 1.05

Xiao Long (4):

Gorkington, Titus, Vaxkiller, Yume
[

This, plus despacito is our pool imo. Titus obviously isn't suck. I'd prefer to lynch one of the people who just piled on without cause. Despacito or Vax. Open to Gork, but he talks enough to figure out, and he's useful if he's town. ^^

Thoughts Titus?


-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, also confident I can read Hume correctly with a little time, so also not a concern.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

drixx
im telling you upfront
that if this is a fakeclaim
and youre town
im blacklisting you for good.

dont do this if youre just townreading xiao.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

unvote

i was literally reading both of you on opposite scumteams.
q.q

If these two posts read genuine to you, then Gork is probably town. The first one, if genuinely emotional, is exactly what I would expect from town who believes they found scum and then someone steps in and clears them and he's worried it's not a true claim.

The second post is weak evidence for not being really well informed and not paying attention to role PM closely. This game is almost certainly some iteration of the 3 discreet factions like from SU2. We have most of us in the dead (town). Then there's "The State", which is colored green so I'm assuming they are something like the Crystal Gems from SU2 where they have to keep us alive to win (although with Varsoon that's not a perfectly safe assumption to make; he will certainly have iterated on the idea and trying to outguess him is a fool's errand). Then there's "The Father of Death" faction which is red and presumably is scum in the traditional sense.


I think those posts are probably genuine which makes me think Gork is probably town (or perhaps state; I could see a state aligned gork posting the 2nd post to throw us off that trail).

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

TheFuzzylogic99
Furude Hanyu (Alisae & zachstralkita)
Almost Chara (Almost50 & Not Chara)

Reasonably Rational (Cerberus v666 & Drixx)

Gorkington

Xiao Long

Desperado
drealmerz7
McMenno sheepsaysmeep
Yume
Havo
Vaxkiller

Titus

Unless I'm wrong about Cheetos (which given his conviction about me and his arguments with Dreamsicle, I don't think I am), we have 9 people to sort now which makes things a lot easier.
Of those 9, I can see scum being among Despacito, Yami and Darude the most.

Everyone, who of those 9 is the most suspicious to you?

I would like to see more out of Desperado, Yume, Havo, Vax and Fuzzy, personally. It's a blitz game so I'm confused at the current pace of the game.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I am not sure who to scumread now.....

Hopefully Titus can put together a fruit basket today for us. Want to give your town reads and thoughts?

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

@Farude - Gross posts. It's pretty obvious that Cerb was protecting that we are masons. What was he going to tell you to explain why I was sure Xiao was not scum that wouldn't reveal that we're masons? It's almost like us being masons is somehow threatening to you. I can't recall seeing either of you grasp at straws like this before.

@Almost Chara - There is someone who has the role of 'The Reporter', so that may in fact be a player message. That player had to be alive in order for Xiao's ability to work. Thus me pushing Farude to obvtown in the hood and Cerb asking the question he did in thread. Since we have no idea who the reporter is, we agreed with Xiao that he should pop it today.


@McMenno - Explain read plz? Interested if you saw something I saw.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

In order to avoid players from gaming the flavor of this setup, every player will be given a default 'Citizen' Role PM. Members of The Dead will not know their true identity until they are dead.
While roles will still have unique mechanical abilities, their unique flavor will not be revealed until being flipped upon death in the game thread.

In this game, there are three factions confirmed to be a part of the setup.
These factions are The State, The Dead, and The Father of Death.
The Dead is the default uninformed majority faction, typically referred to as 'Town'. The default win-condition of The Dead has two possibilities for achieving a win:
The Dead will win the game if all players that are a part of The Father of Death faction are dead and at least six total players of any faction are still alive.
The Dead will win the game if all players that are a part of The State faction are dead and at least two members of The Dead faction is still alive.
The Dead will lose the game if they ever have only one member left alive at any given time.

Also these mechanics
make 0 sense for masons.
I mean sure it could be my lack of understanding of mechanics
but these mechanics don't make sense to me with me for masons.

Masons don't make sense mechanicly
lynch them.

Go look at any Varsoon game ever and then you'll realize you shouldn't be trying to outguess the modfather. Just stop it. The next thing you're going to argue is that Elvis is alive and playing in this game.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

@Farude - Gross posts.

Ok then vote us because by play you're scum

Working to get solid reads on strong players and then picking one to make into an IC who isn't likely to be killed since killing her won't advance any wincon is scummy play? You think that ABILITY is scummy? Like ... really?


The rest of you as confused by Farude right now as I am?

~D

P-Edit: @drealmerz7 - We knew about the ability because we're masons with Xiao and he told us about it. We talked about when to use it and because it depends on an unknown player who is 'The Reporter' to work, we agreed it should be used today. From that point, we worked on trying to get a hard town read from amongst a group of players we felt would do best as an IC with no incentive to be killed. We agreed on Titus and I claimed because Xiao was in danger of being mislynched.

Saying anything MORE than that would be a bad idea.

[Reasonably Rational]

We were torn between using it on Furude, who is legitimately the most suspicious slot in the game to us, mechanically speaking due to all these silly hoods they have going on(which is why I immediately disavowed knowledge of drixxs townread on Xiao, better to be dissonant than make our masonry obvious as drixx was doing), and Titus. We decided to target Titus because even though she was more likely to be town, having her as an unknown would make it MUCH harder to solve the game than it will be knowing we can work with her and trust her goals.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Far too much set up speculation in a Varsoon game. Just seems like people are trying to spin WIFOM everywhere to confuse town.

Yami: Ratatouille’s question was referring to making someone an IC, my response was an embarrassing misunderstanding

vote: Despacito

For now, but still looking at others

my vote is now fluid between xiao, gork, and yume

1/3 aint bad i guess

vote: xiao

Why are gork and Yume town? Has learning you were wrong about Xiao changed your position on anything?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

The Xiao quote shouldn't be there.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

i'm used to McMenno being "lazy" from my limited experience with him. the attitude towards RR is bothering me.
McMenno: what did your "reading comprehension" comment even mean? did i misunderstand something?

i'll ISO Desperado when i get a minute. i like it more than the Furude wagon only because i don't have a read on Desp.
~Chara

He has 7 posts, and I quoted the only one worth a damn. :p The rests are fluff or explaining his nickname problem with xiao...or voting for Vax after xiao and us revealed our masonry.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Farude has dropped some misrepresentations in here concerning things Cerb or I said, and each of them came along with planting doubt about our slot.

At the same time, they're busy in their PT with Xiao trying to use lies to elicit some response they can use against him. For example:

• First they lied to Xiao and said that Yume doesn't usually do nicknames/codes and fluff and spent time trying to get Xiao to tell them anything we had said about Yume. After Xiao said they should ask us themselves, they said they were trying to get Xiao to say that we had agreed that Yume doesn't usually play the way she has so far with the nicknames and fluff posts.
  
• Ongoing right now they are telling Xiao that we know Yume's role and have told them (Farude hydra) but kept it from Xiao for some reason.

Add to their shady behavior the fact that they have claimed to have a PT with every slot, one on one. Obviously we know this is true for a couple slots, and nobody spoke up since that claim and said otherwise. The problem with that role is that it literally doesn't work as a town role. Scum would know and just kill the slot if it is at all competent, for obvious reasons. It does make sense for a "Father of Death" role though.

From the moment I stepped in (against Cerb's wishes) and claimed to keep Xiao from being mislynched, Farude hydra has reacted to us as if we're a huge threat. Constant shading and doubtcasting and now outright lying to our partner in what looks/feels like an attempt to get Xiao to make a mistake when answering the freaking spanish inquisition they're putting on so they can come to the thread with more than easily shot down misrepresentation of Cerb and I.

Pretty damned sure Farude hydra is scum at this point. Seeing no town motive in their behavior whatsoever. Waiting for Cerb to pop back around but pretty sure that Furude hydra is the right lynch.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

@Furude: I'm the head that's vocal about hating people not signing, and I've been too busy to be concerned with it. So yeah, kinda gave up on that too soon. :p

-Cerb

Pedit: ooh drixx words of walliness.

[Reasonably Rational]

drixx, can you elaborate on "obvious reasons" a bit?

If we posit them as town: Well scum would know because each of them would have a 1on1 PT with them. So that means they are outed to scum straightaway as a role. Then consider Xiao's ability to make someone an IC with no incentive for scum to kill them (Titus no longer counts in terms of win condition, so killing her doesn't help scum except by silencing her, and now that she blabbed she is BP they don't even have to fear her role). That would mean a town!Farude becomes a super safe person to funnel role results through to Titus who can claim them and know who they come from but doesn't out the people unless it's necessary. It's an absurd info nexus and would make town by far the most informed group.

So a town slot with that role just gets killed night 1 by any competent scum team.

Now this is a Varsoon game so I spent most of the time since I outed Xiao and us giving Furude the benefit of the doubt, but at this point the slot's behavior paired with the role being so unlikely to be given to town has me pretty sure they're scum.

~Drixx

P.S. - Now that Cerb is around gonna talk with him for awhile.

[Reasonably Rational]

Man we're totally ganging up on Varsoon and ninja snagging his pagetops like crazy.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

this is probably just navel gazing but
wouldnt using that ability on furude been the best possible utility for it?

If you ignore our history with Titus, as well as other sekrit things, absolutely.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, and you also have to consider that if furude is town, then with our ability in the game that could easily be ridiculously unbalanced...as drixx was sayinf. But if they're SCUM, then their role is guaranteed to put them under scrutiny. I would expect them to be ascetic or a gf, so using that ability on them possibly screws them over, depending on the form of their immunity.

Pure spec though ofc. Maybe it was just mechanically the best choice and we made the wrong one. :/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: Furude

No vote was there yet.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

For the record, I want desperado dead too. ^^ just less concerned about the harm he can do to the game than the harm furude could do.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

By my count that’s L1, should we at least wait for claim?

Yep.

[Reasonably Rational]

...

Why is the lynch bullshit? Use your words, last time I checked you weren't bad at that.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm not scum reading you for questioning us. Mechanically there was a certain degree of suspicion from before our claim. Questioning us is reasonable, though it should probably be a lower priority than you're placing on it.

@everyone: Have you claimed anything to furude in your pt with them? If so, don't say what it is, just confirm that you've done so. Furude, please pass anything that has been claimed to you, on to Titus. She can do what she wants with it, but if we're wrong I want her to be working with maximum information, and I also want to ensure that scum do not have more information than town due to people claiming too much to furude.

Don't claim anything more, btw. Just want to make sure knowledge is passed on.

Furude, also...just saying x is y, without saying WHY that's the case, is useless.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Games full of scumbutts. Everyone is sucking at obvtowning, or else I'm just bad. I'm probably just bad. :/ Haven't played lately.

And it's a lower priority because...SCUM WILL KILL US, SO ONLY BE WORRIED IF WE DON'T DIE! Pretty obvious imo. :please

Keeping you around another day was something I kinda wanted just to see if you'd live through the night, and if you did we'd just autolynch you, but my other head disagreed.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

22 hours to deadline means i won't be there when it hits.
i wrote, then continued to write even as i remembered it doesn't actually matter. :<

i don't really want to lynch Furude.

discrediting the masons privately and publicly is a ballsy scum move, especially when one of them is RR

. they'd immediately get blowback when RR flipped town. plus, the thought process that was explained to me in the hood (essentially the same as what's here publicly, i believe) is something i can definitely buy from town Alisae.
i'd rather lynch McMenno. Desp, i can't seem to form an opinion on beyond "not much". i haven't read a few of the more recent pages, though.
~Chara

pedit: sounds like it's decided already i suppose. that's a good idea at least.

The bolded is the best reason to think they're town that I've thought of, but I have enough respect for Alisae and have played with them enough times(not a lot, but enough) to think they could do it specifically because of how ballsy it is.

Like I said earlier though, lots of scumbutts here unfortunately. :/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I really really want a vc. :/
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hmm. What you were doing was searching for inconsistencies in the way the two of us responded.

Let's break down why what you were doing wasn't beneficial to town.

1) If we were scum, we had a pt together. Therefore, our answers would be fine. Therefore, you couldn't have caught scum from that play.
2) if we just had a pt together and were town lying, you still wouldn't have been able to figure that out from what you were doing.
3) if we were town completely gambiting and lying with no pt together...what you did could have had an effect.

So, only one option actually accomplishes something. Let's talk about WHAT it accomplishes:

It tells you that we can't possibly be masons together(at least, not as normally handled, with a pt and everything), or that we gave a hold together. NEITHER of those things actually determine the alignment of either of our slots. We could still be lying. We could be scum together. We could be gambiting town togethed. We could be one scum and a fooled town vouching for them.

Yes, it's valuable to town to know those are the options, but you know who that knowledge is even more are useful for? Scum who have just had an IC-like effect popped in their face and also saw two masons and now need to determine if there's ANY way they can keep from having to shoot the masons, by maybe finding out that they don't even have a pt together and thus can't be masons.

Because again, that's all you could do. You could find out we can't possibly be masons, which would mean that drixx and I decided to lie for Xiao because we town read him, and NOTHING more, if you were town. If you were scum, though, it changes the entire way you play the game.

Which is, again, why I said questioning US on our masonry was a lower priority than you placed on it.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm happy with any of those three. I appreciate the STU acronym and lifestyle and furudes shit still definitely stinks.

Gork, do you prefer desp to mcmenno? If not, why do you even offer them as an alternative? And why is Menno the first one you suggestion, purely wagon count? If so, I'd like to remind yout that Xiao and us will be voting together, and hopefully Titus too, and we're all active so significant wagon swings can happen.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

For reals yo, the line you took makes a hell of a lot more sense coming from scum than town. Unfortunately, I know you're not stupid, so I can't just assume you're bad town doing a dumb thing because you convinced yourself it actually had value....cuz that's basically the only option explaining why you thought you'd get something helpful out of asking us shit like how many pages were in our pt.

So, basically, the point of my entire post was just just that the line you took just makes more sense coming from scum than town, unless you're bad town who doesn't think, and I know you're not. The fact that you're doubling down on defending it, instead of thinking critically and realizing oh right, that was actually pretty fucking useless, doesn't help matters either.

@ac: don't think drealm is going to develop the pull necessary to actually make us do what he wants. Could be wrong though.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Do you guys really think scum is going to act like Farude is? Take a hard stance against a mason claim putting themselves out there int he light?

Do you think town with farudes ability is going to act like they did, and just neighborize fucking everyone D1, insuring scum know they have hoods with multiple people and making themselves a certain target when leaky people inevitably reveal they have a bunch of hoods?

It just makes more sense for me that farude is a scum gf whose ability is MEANT to draw xiaos power and fake confirm them and fuck over town ti make up for masons+IC.

Ofc, if they don't have a firm of investigation immunity and are scum, then I'm kinda confused about everything.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm not trying to outguess Varsoon? I just know what Xiao and I can do, and you don't make sense in that universe. That's what made me care about your slot. The whole stupid not actually able to get AI results thing you were doing was also pretty bad, but bothers drixx a lot more than me.^^ I'm really just killing time poking you right now until Drixx wakes up so I can see if sleeping has made him any less certain.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Well I don't think furude is a gf

lmao if we were a godfather we would have won just period.
Like
I don't get lynched D1 as town and I'm not under this much heat D1 as town.

If we were a gf we would be getting copped tonight because we would have played accordingly.

Wait, played accordingly like neighborizing everybody and then claiming said hoods without any reason to do so, thus making sure that any cop that existed would have a very good reason to investigate you?

Mcmenno: Xiao ability publicly reveals alignments, functioning as a cop. Therefore, if something messes up the alignment reveal, that's not bastard. Though there was something about the ability possibly failing and being refunded if so...but if it would fail on frigging scum, that's EVEN stronger since you could just try again.

-Cerb

Pedit; why do you keep saying you're not being allowed to speculate? You've said it like 4 times. I don't give a fuck if you speculate?

[Reasonably Rational]

okay wait, can you double check with varsoon whether your role would give a false positive on a godfather or not?
because honestly that seems straight up bastard if it functions that way.
its almost on the same level as an innocent child ability for scum unless the ability explicitly dictates that it could get a false positive from a godfather-esque role

I'll ask Xiao to confirm with Varsoon.

And yeah, I assume ascetic as well, but if furude were ascetic....as scum they'd have claimed it with their ability. Might be other ascetics around though.

-Cerb

Pedit: cool. I'll do this until drixx gets here, maybe he'll yell at me to swap back. I'm happy with either. :p

VOTE: Mcmenno

[Reasonably Rational]

Omg Mcmenno is offering content. Much amaze.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Menno is somewhere between l-2 and lynched.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Just waiting for xiao and drixx to weigh in.

I'm intrigued by Vax just sheeping the biggest wagon again and not really playing though.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Vax didn't do the sheeping thing with furure though. Just xiao and menno. How interesting.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Probably. :p just thinkin out loud though really.

-Cerb

Pedit: sure. So is vax. And yume. And tfl. And any other do nothings around. And everyone else too. :l

[Reasonably Rational]

My vote is there in spirit. Also on furude in spirit. And I'll be here to make it a reality. ^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Cool, so, read the fucking game and give us more than you have so far.

-Cerb

Pedit: Xiao and myself will, and that will put you tied as the lynch for today. You have absolutely no town cred, and no defenders. You are very much at risk of being lynched today.

[Reasonably Rational]

Desperado
drealmerz7
McMenno

why would you vote for drealmz if theres consensus support for lynching both of your other strong scumreads?

Because I felt stronger about lynching him at that moment!

I sometimes have delusions of doing something "important" and everyone following me.

This is not that game.

This is definitely the game where any such thought was a delusion. <3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Unless drixx or xiao show up and tell me things. :p

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Nothing. You're all scummy. Every last one of you have done nothing that's town.

Which sucks.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

This is a silly game btw.



-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Menno had a wagon.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Deadlines coming varsoon!!! We must accomplish things.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Varsoon got back to Xiao, it would not show someone's fake alignment if used on a miller or gf...but we're waiting on a follow up to know what would happen if used on a miller or gf. If it would reveal their real alignment, or just not work.

Not really relevant though, important thing is we're dumb and should have used it on furude probably.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Well, I thought I was vanilla and we all had the same ability, but when I told Farude I was Vanilla in the neighboorhood he said "uhhhhh ok"

Which made me think it was a weird response. My PM says taht the State will use an action at night and when they do it will be announced in the morning. When its announced I can use that ability. I guess im the only one with that ability?

So the vote less thing used on AC was a state thing? It was announced this morning...or was that something else, and something will be used tonight? And you now have the ability to make people vote less? And they have more powers they can use than that? Can you use that ability, or just that night, or is it x shot, or what?

Claim feels legit, alignment still unknown.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh and drixx is alive now, please no hammer until he weighs in please and thank you.

(He atill thinks furude is most likely scum).
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Furude, read our PT, drixx has a question. :p Ty.

And Ty gork. <3

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Too many people disconnected from the game and not voting drealmerz. Yume or tfl or havo could easily accidentaly(or deliberately "accidentally") hammer while catching up.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yeah, I agree. Still something we need to worry about though. :/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

We no longer want furudes head, and Drixx agrees that Vax is probscum.

I think Drixx is still catching up though.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, and he says he will have full thoughts in 30.

So just a tiny bit more patience.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

rr/titus, i havent played a varsoon game in a little while, does he usually provide fakeclaims/fakeclaim PMs at the start of the game for scum?
or do you have to request something and he fills in the details?

Always provides fake claims.

And motherfucker.

Does anyone else think Vax SOUNDS like he could be mega/protoman? :/ I wanna ignore the flavor implications..but taking powers used by deceased other robots sure sounds like megaman.

...

Discussion time.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Furude said something that really jumped off the page to me and made me doubt the level of certainty I have on them being scum. What I saw that made me so sure was that they appeared to do a complete narrative reversal when Titus got popped IC by Xiao right after I claimed to keep Xiao from being mislynched. They called it an attempt to sort but it was REALLY bad and ham fisted and I just expect more from the players in that hydra. BUT: they made a really solid point that makes me want to take time to re-assess, and we don't have time to do that today.

I wanted to explain that the scum read is because they appeared to just be putting forward a narrative to appear town and the unexpected outing of masons followed by an IC pop jolted whatever they were originally planning with the narrative, and they contradicted themselves and also did a bad job living up to the skills they have as town players. This is important because I can't explain this later if we get killed tonight. Hopefully people understand what I'm talking about here.

I am concerned that Furude has made the assumption that both The State and The Father of Death factions are scum factions, to the point where they are just outright referring to that as the actual game state, when we don't actually know that. I think there's a clue in the way Varsoon chose to flavor and color the factions, but I'm not confident enough to just decide what it means. I also played in SU2 where there was a 3rd party faction and that faction had to keep town alive to win, and my base thinking has been this game is an iteration of that idea. I would expect "The State" to be able to win with either faction, or else be a more refined version of the "Crystal Gems" from SU2. That's obviously speculation and if the flips are like they were in SU2, we won't actually

KNOW

until it's all over.

Still ... it's a little concerning to me that Furude hydra is just referring to it as 2 scum factions. That's either just reckless assumption OR it could be a slip on their part. There's not enough time to suss that out before day ends, so I'm just dumping thoughts here because Masons. Obviously we'll do as thorough an info dump as we can to Xiao and hopefully him to us and hopefully we don't both get killed off, but I'd rather not see worst case and not have dumped my thoughts.

Legit apology that you're getting literally a vomit of my thoughts without much editing or organization. It will have to do. I've got shit to do today.


So ... I'm okay with Vax lynch. I told Cerb before I went to sleep that I thought he might be scum and not much he has said since changes that, EXCEPT this quoted post. This does NOT look like a reads list manipulated by scum. This looks to me like a reads list I would expect from a town player who has been paying attention to this game. That's all I have in the "benefit of the doubt" column for Vax though. I'm fairly certain Desperado would be a better lynch today. If necessary I can point out why.

Vax's 60sec read list

Town
Vaxkiller
Titus

Prob town
Xiao Long
Reasonably Rational (Cerberus v666 & Drixx)


Towny
Gorkington
Furude Hanyu (Alisae & zachstralkita)
Almost Chara (Almost50 & Not Chara)

TheFuzzylogic99 Didnt know they were playing

Need to sort
Yume
Havo

Prob scum
Desperado
drealmerz7
McMenno

Nothing in this reads list looks like it has been made up to suit some purpose. It's fairly close to where I was when I read it. Someone point out if you think I'm wrong. Scum don't tend to give this kind of reads list when about to die in my experience. It may be the only shred of any reason to re-evaluate Vax, but it's kind of a big one. It demonstrates that he's paying attention and thinking about things, even if his posts (apart from this one) lack much evidence of such.

Can we talk about Desperado before we make a hasty decision?

Unvote

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Vax just claimed Protoman/Megaman. I'm sorry but I think that warrants letting him live and making him participate more and deciding what to do with him later. It's POSSIBLE that Varsoon would give that fake claim to scum, but in the past he hasn't literally given THE HERO as a fake claim to scum.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

For the record, protoman started off as a hero and ended up fighting against megaman, the 2nd generation of him. So he could fit the flavor and just be the evil version...if you're going off megaman canon, as opposed to the protoman albums.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Don't be sour drealmerz7. Vax is probably town. I'm not happy about it. I had him firmly as a scum read until the moment I realized what he was claiming. There's no way a scum!Vax doesn't outright claim the flavor of that. The way he claimed is townie, and what he has for an ability is an exact description of how megaman gains abilities.

I think Desperado is the play today, unless people don't want to give us time to re-evaluate Furude. I'm going to pepper Furude with questions when I'm done my packing list for today and I will make sure Xiao knows what we think and why before night ends in case we don't live. I believe Furude COULD be town, and if they are town, then we need to make scum kill them. Town!Furude can collect results claims and funnel them to Titus so Titus ends up knowing who does what and Titus can then claim results and insulate people from outing themselves to give info.

I would NOT recommend people just blindly trust Furude yet, but it's too much upside to throw away, especially given something they said that I don't believe even comes from them as scum.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I can only use it once, not specifically the following night.

Use it tonight, on whoever, please and thank you.

@drealmerz: I feel you. I also feel with how long it took him to figure that out, and the fact that he literally claimed vanilla to furude in their pt, it could be a pure fake claim he made up to sound like megaman after he gave up.

I was originally thinking "no way he comes up with a fake claim that even attempts to identify what happened with AC today", but then realized if he's FoD, and r hey didn't use it, they can assume the stare did so, and vice versa, or if he is state, same thing, so he can make up a role that attempts to identify that stuff without risk, unless the elec man thing was triggered by a specific slot. It would be risky, but not impossible.

So, sigh.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I would expect "The State" to be able to win with either faction, or else be a more refined version of the "Crystal Gems" from SU2.

can you please reread the town role pm... and then reread it. and then reread it. until you realise that the state is the fucking primary scum faction

You will win the game if all players that are a part of The Father of Death faction are dead and at least six total players of any faction are still alive.
You will win the game if all players that are a part of The State faction are dead and at least one player of The Dead faction is still alive.
You will lose the game if The Dead are reduced to a single living player.

Pretty sure town can't win while the "primary scum faction" is still alive...and both win cons allow wins without removing the entirety of the state or father of death.

So based on our role pm alone, you can't assume EITHER faction is primary scum, just that killing all of either of them let's us win.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Agreed. Just disagreeing with the idea that either one is "primary".

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Lightning crashed through the night sky, illuminating the sleeping city. The glow of a particular high-rise was snuffed out, power shorted, leaving its residents unable to go about their lives.
While most initially blamed the accident on nature, the truth came to surface--it was one of robots that did this, one of the so-called enforcers of the City's order. This discovery wasn't by chance, either.

The remains of Elec Man were found strewn about the outside of the building

, left there as a reminder that it was the Man in the Tower who controlled this city, who decided which people were worth contributing to society and who were best off without a voice.

The people stirred--who had done this? Why would anyone defy the robot masters? Didn't they know that it would only bring more troubles? And yet, some in the city saw this as a sign--not that the robot masters were oppressing the citizens; but that they could be defeated.

During Night 0, Elec Man rendered a block of the city without power.
Due to this, Almost Chara is unable to vote for the remainder of Day 1.

Yeah, doesn't sound like he'll be back.

Mcmenno/Drealmerz: valid point that the state is a guaranteed victory if removed at any point, which could arguably make them the primary scum faction. We just don't know what happens to them if the father of death faction is removed while they're still around. They either win or lose, since you can't play the game when all the other factions are gone. :p If they win, they're not PURE anti-town and if they lose they are.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Anyways. Desp or Menno? Vax gets a pass cuz maybe protoman.

[Reasonably Rational]

Holy batman fast posts.

Thank you AC. I'm still a little confused. It's clear we can win early with The State, but then at a certain point of attrition, our win con changes to eliminating them. Doesn't that imply that "The State" would be highly motivated to help us eliminate "The Father of Death" super fast?


Why the resistance to Desperado? Can someone show me some reason not to go there?

VOTE: Desperado

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Umm Drixx, that's not obvious at all. Maybe you should read my posts cuz I'm like half of you. :p

The state could LOSE if we kill the father of death too fast, and could thus be incentived to obfuscate and keep that faction alive.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I appreciate your loyalty titus, but if you get the chance please talk to us about why. :/ I don't know if my reasons are good ones right now.

And I kinda want Menno while drixx wants desp, so..yeah.


-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Anyways. Desp or Menno? Vax gets a pass cuz maybe protoman.

..........

vax gets a pass for something you just made up????

Yep.

Risk/reward+testable role.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

its not.
the.
exact.
same.
for.
every.
player.
if you have.
a.
role.

understand how the game works before you write something that makes you sound like a fucking moron.

you keep talking about vaxs flavor when he explicitly can't know it

And you keep talking like the role he claimed isn't OBVIOUSLY meant to mimic Megaman. The question isn't "is his role like megaman". It is, is he SCUM with a role like megaman, or is he ACTUALLY megaman.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

And ya, I want menno. Js. Gork? Titus? Xiao? Drealm? We can have a party and dance on his beetlejuicing corpse?

Wish Drixx didn't have a life so he could talk to me.
-Cerb

Pedit: it'd a pass for today silly desperado. Who do you want dead again? Besides vax? Cuz right now you're on the block yo.

[Reasonably Rational]

I'd be happy with that too, but they didn't check out of the very interesting discussion the moment the wagon on them dissolved. Maybe they'll do it when they get wagoned, idk.

-Cerb

Pedit: ya, agree with furude here. Desp is being lynched for being useless so far, and menno is kinda the same but scummier, but we're lynching Desp for some reason. O.o

[Reasonably Rational]

Pfft, if I wanted a bunch a claims I'd be on Titus and Furudes nuts, convincing you all that Furude is Mos Def town, and getting them to funnel info to me.

^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Pfft, if I wanted a bunch a claims I'd be on Titus and Furudes nuts, convincing you all that Furude is Mos Def town, and getting them to funnel info to me.

^^

-Cerb

Tbh, I'd sit on the info and not pass it.

Shh, I know that, but I wanted for make fun of them for thinking this is how I'd go about getting claims from everyone when I know people just friggin claim everything.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Anyways. Desp or Menno? Vax gets a pass cuz maybe protoman.

..........

vax gets a pass for something you just made up????

Dude. Megaman gains the powers of the evil robots he defeats. We have a day start post telling us Elecman was defeated but stopped AC from being able to vote before that happened.

Then Vax claims to get the power from the vanquised evil robot.

So that's about as obvious as it can be that his ability means he's megaman or protoman. That's not "just made up" ... it's the freaking flavor of the game we're playing. And Varsoon is always spot on with flavor.

Did you actually not understand the progression from his ability claim to literally the ONLY characters in the flavor who have that ability?

its not.
the.
exact.
same.
for.
every.
player.
if you have.
a.
role.

understand how the game works before you write something that makes you sound like a fucking moron.

you keep talking about vaxs flavor when he explicitly can't know it

There are literally only two possible characters he can be. Megaman or Protoman. They are the robots who gain the powers of the evil robots they defeat. His power literally cannot belong to any other character. Obviously we can't be 100% sure, but you HAVE played Varsoon games before right? Flavor is always meticulous. There's no world in which Vax isn't Megaman/Protoman.

so if you mean his ABILITY then maybe you should say that

then we can talk about how vax can easily be scum with the role he ha claimed

What would a scum!Vax with the role he claimed imply about the day start flavor and AC being rendered voteless? Do you think both can be scum? I'm thinking not, which is why I said Vax should get a pass today and be forced to engage heavily and get sorted the traditional way. His posts today haven't been great, but between the reads list which does not look like a scum faked reads list and the fact that his role is literally what the hero does in megaman, there's a pretty solid chance he's just lynchbait.

I'd much rather not take away what seems like a very solid utility role just because you think his role (and the implications of it) shouldn't be calculated into the decision on how to proceed. I mean ... if that was the case, why even wait and ask for a claim ever? Sometimes claims change the risk/reward balance. This one did.

Get over it and maybe do something at all that is townie?

i don't care who you think his claimed ability is meant to mimic. it literally could not mean less to me.

Then you are behaving foolishly. Vasoon games are always flavor oriented. He has an ability which limits who his flavor character can be to just MegaMan (the hero) and Protoman (complicated to explain if you don't actually know anything about the flavor). You should absolutely care that his claimed ability (which we can force him to demonstrate is true) points to him probably being the hero.

no reason to lynch desp... the stuff with xiao doesn't mean a lot

His attempt to pretend that Vax's ability doesn't matter is pretty scummy. Who said he was being wagoned because of the early Xiao stuff?

no mcmenno has shown me enough that he's off my lynch pool for today

and we don't need any mor efucking claims FUCKING FUCK this just sounds like RR is trying to get a bunch of claims almost

furudehanyu or vax

Nobody should claim unless absolutely necessary. Ideally Furude can play REALLY obvtown and become the conduit for results to go to Titus and nobody ever has to claim. Titus can simply vouch as necessary.

flavor is irrelevant because no one is claiming flavor because we all know that townies DONT KNOW THEIR FUCKING FLAVOR

we also have roles that are contained within that standard town role PM that can be either town or scum roles so there is no need for additional fake claims

See above. You are intentionally ignoring the fact that he claimed an ability that can only be a very specific character. In this case the options are:

1.) Contrary to all prior evidence and games, Varsoon decided to go against matching his flavor to the source in this game.
2.) Vax is fucking Megaman or Protoman and therefore almost certainly town.

Furthermore ... anyone with even a peripheral understanding of what the megaman games are would be able to figure that out. It's not a gigantic fucking mystery or something.

~Drixx

P-Edit: Please trust me when I say Furude dropped a strong enough town tell that I am re-evaluating and it would be better not to rope them today. Both heads of that hydra are quite good and if town they provide fantastic utility along with their skill. If they are scum, I'm certain Cerb and I will catch it and leave the info with Xiao in case we get popped tonight. You guys already have my thought process behind originally scum reading them as well, so like ... it's all downside to rope them today. Much better candidates on the table.

[Reasonably Rational]

the vanquised evil robot.

is this flavor knowledge from you knowing the megamn universe? Elec Man is evil for sure?

Yep. He's one of the original evil robots.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Did you actually not understand the progression from his ability claim to literally the ONLY characters in the flavor who have that ability?

and this can't be a fakeclaim for scum and they would have no realistic equal potential for having that ability?

Sure it could be a fake claim. Varsoon has even made the "hero" outright scum before. The point is that his ability if he's town is valuable and that changes the equation. If we posit him as scum, that also raises a question about the day start usage of the ability.

@RR I am not moving. Do you want a no lynch? Cos with all of your wanting different targets, that outcome is more than certain. :/

Don't hold the game hostage. That's a basic part of the implied social contract of mafia. It's already difficult with AC being voteless, and now you want to make things MORE difficult?

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

For the record, you all need to read the rules for this game.

A no lynch isn't possible. Most votes get lynched if deadline comes without a majority.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

From post 1:

If the deadline runs out before a majority lynch is agreed on, the player with the most votes will be lynched.
In the case of a tie in votes, the most recently voted player is lynched.
In the case that the deadline runs out and no votes have been cast, I will force a lynch on a town player.
Players may not vote for a No-Lynch.

No lynch is not a thing. Right now we're lynching desp if nothing else changes.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

RR, you're saying that varsoon puts megaman/protoman in the game, says there's no way for the dead to discern their role via given abilities, and then you discern the role by given abilities? it seems not right

He did NOT say there was no way for us to discern our flavor from our abilities. (I'm assuming you typing "role" in there is meant to be "flavor character" or something similar). Here's what he said:

In order to avoid players from gaming the flavor of this setup, every player will be given a default 'Citizen' Role PM. Members of The Dead will not know their true identity until they are dead.
While roles will still have unique mechanical abilities, their unique flavor will not be revealed until being flipped upon death in the game thread.

Given that gaining the power of a defeated evil robot is a VERY unique ability, it seems that for Vax, we can be pretty sure he's one of the set {Megaman, Protoman}.

The fact that our flavor roles are obfuscated is kind of part of why I think Vax should be left alive and strongly encouraged to interact heavily and hopefully he'll obvtown and we don't have to be paranoid.

~Drixx

P.S. - Since I doubt any of the rest of us have roles that can only possibly be like a single character, we are literally wasting a shit load of time for no reason on this. Vax got a role that has super clear flavor implications. I suspect the rest of us didn't. It's therefore probably not useful to spend so much damned time on it.

Like ... anyone who doesn't know just go read up about megaman on a wiki. You'll very quickly see for yourself that he gains the powers of the evil robots he defeats. Boom bang bam.

There's literally no further adding on to that, and fucking around discussing it ad nauseum is going to lead to a rushed bad lynch or a no lynch. So just let it drop. There's literally no argument against Vax being Megaman or Protoman, and the only question then is whether Varsoon would give the hero to a scum team and trying to outguess Varsoon is like trying to kiss a Black Mamba. It's absurdly stupid and it will get you killed.

Vax has enough on the "let him live and sort him tomorrow" side to let live. That's simply all there is. His play and posts will either keep him alive or send him to the noose on a future day. Cool? Awesome.

[Reasonably Rational]

you said vax was firmly scum to you until he claimed and now he's town because of the way he claimed and you're not happy about it and its terrible

That's a misrepresentation of what I said. I said that I had him in my scum pile last night. I then had his reads from many pages back quoted when I was catching up and I said that they didn't look like made up scum reads. They looked like reads from someone who was town and keeping up with the game. So if I'm catching up and I quote something and point out that it looks town, I obviously didn't have him as "firmly scum".

There are literally only two possible characters he can be. Megaman or Protoman. They are the robots who gain the powers of the evil robots they defeat. His power literally cannot belong to any other character. Obviously we can't be 100% sure, but you HAVE played Varsoon games before right? Flavor is always meticulous. There's no world in which Vax isn't Megaman/Protoman.

now you can talk about why megaman/protoman has to be town

It's absolutely possible that Varsoon put the hero on a scum team. It seems less likely to me than he put the hero on our team and that it would fit perfectly with flavor that way. First the evil robot uses the ability against us; megaman defeats him and then has the ability to use on our behalf. That's literally a description of the game.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Don't be sour drealmerz7. Vax is probably town. I'm not happy about it. I had him firmly as a scum read until the moment I realized what he was claiming. There's no way a scum!Vax doesn't outright claim the flavor of that. The way he claimed is townie, and what he has for an ability is an exact description of how megaman gains abilities.

???

this is exactly what i described

Congratulations. You just took advantage of me being crazy busy and making an overgeneralization. It's clearly true that I quoted his reads list and said it seemed townie to me (which you either missed or disregarded in favor of trying to make me look bad for my sweeping overgeneralization). There's even MORE bad in that post though: I also in that post you quoted made a bad assumption when I assumed Vax knew that his role could only be Megaman/Protoman and would have pushed that idea. That's not a safe assumption.

Some people seem to think that I claim to be perfect and never make mistakes. I've never claimed such, and you just fed me humble pie to prove it isn't so.

The point still stands that I did in fact post his reads list and I did in fact say that it did not look like a made up scum reads list. So you win the prize of realizing I'm human (and currently busy as fuck). Congratulations I guess?

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

this is interesting.

I've been researching the flavor, and apparently megaman fights protoman at the end of act I. then he refers to the people as "the dead", and turns his back on the city.

track 3 of act II is called "the father of death". in this doctor light says that he will not become the father of death. this is so far the only reference I have found to the "father of death".

and the entire catalyst for the events is doctor light's and wily's robots. so in fact doctor light, and maybe protoman and megaman may constitute the "fathers of death" faction. the flavor being if they are "stopped" (ie killed) fast enough the events of protomen never happen, and the state will not have to be stopped. so megaman might not be an "auto-townie" as you were assuming. this is just a theory though, a varsoon game theory

You make a valid point. I've been thinking of megaman as a whole and not this particular piece of the megaman flavor.

Plus Vax has totally gone dark which isn't making me feel great.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

i didn't take advantage of anything

that whole response is just...so over the top

Probably. I'm busy and I think you're scum and even though I clearly made a post where I doubted vax as scum prior to the post you quoted, you took advantage and just picked the post that made it seem like the only thing I was looking at with Vax is a flavor assumption that may or may not be correct. To me it felt like you were trying to put me into an idiot box and misrepresent me. So I reacted accordingly.

How about instead of constantly going back and forth with me on something we both agree cannot inform us, you give some actual reasoning about why you believe Vax is scum and should be lynched? Shit like "I've lost games because people let scum live for possible utility" isn't a case against Vax. It's anecdotal and recency bias on display. Many games have been won by maximizing utility.

Make the case. Overcome the fact that I think his reads show an underlying town mindset and earn my vote with reason.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Can we please NOT leave multiple people on the same vote count? I could see that going totally and disastrously wrong in a hurry.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Havo and Dreamerz look bad but I'm not pushing Drealmerz because he always helps scums.

fuck off with your terrible blind stupid shit that is absolutely inaccurate, kthx

like, what the fuck am I doing that looks bad? fuck your terrible self, seriously

Havo and Dreamerz look bad but I'm not pushing Drealmerz because he always helps scums.

fuck off with your terrible blind stupid shit that is absolutely inaccurate, kthx

like, what the fuck am I doing that looks bad? fuck your terrible self, seriously

Posts like this.

wow, more terrible stupid shit from you! SURPRISE!!! I MADE THIS POST AFTER YO MADE THE STATEMENT, THAT MEANS I AM LOOKING FOR EXAMPLES FROM BEFORE THIS POST YOU IGNORNAT FUCK

how about get out of the fucking thread if you aren't going to actually play and just going to antagonize

You seem (from these posts) to be legitimately angry about this game. Please for your own sake (and ours) just go blow off some steam in RL. Take a walk, stretch, whatever. Do what you got to do so posts like these don't happen again. Please.

[Reasonably Rational]

Agreed.

Talked to Titus in the thingie, she's feeling good about desperado, I'm a sheep yo.

VOTE: Mcmenno

@Drealm: please don't. This game is mostly free of toxicity right now. Don't be the one who changes that.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

*sigh* what a mess.

Does anyone have any objections to havo?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Drixx gut scum reads desp, but Titus town reads them. :/ idk them and don't have any opinion.

VOTE: Havo

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Able to change at need as well, just chill in in my car until deadline passes to make sure I'm here for whatever needs too be done too make sure scum don't quickly shift the lynch or something.

-Cerb

Pedit: useless slot so far fuzzy, and everybody else we wanted to lynch knda sounds like we don't wanna lynch them. :/

[Reasonably Rational]

I'd do drealmerz too. Cuz fuck the toxicity, if we're just doing a omg last second lynch. ^^

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

with less than an hour left, even though I'm at L-3 I might still die by plurality, so I will now claim:

each night, I can visit a player. I will then be told if they are the "red-eyed assassin", aligned with the state. if I have found them, I can then kill them, the state will then be roleblocked for the following day and night, but I will also die.

that is the mechanical part. I will speculate on flavor in my next post, but that is to get it out of the way

kills and block state, which makes it seem like thier ability they use that I get is not used by a specific person, but as a team

Good catch. Probably a factional then if the exact verbiage is the way you described.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I don't know what is best.

Drixx doesn't want furude anymore, he wants to reevaluate and see if they get killed tonight. :/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I have a sinking feeling town is going to implode this game- All the signs are there

can we lynch Desp

We will make it work fuzzy, trust yo.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Well, not in the game state NOW you wouldn't, but if the wagon never came back to you you might have. :/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Ofc they're not.
Last minute surge of votes to make sure they get lynched and things can't be swung to someone else? No way that happens to scum.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

We told them nothing significant. We thought they were scum, after all.

Also, NOBODY should actually publicly claim what they claimed to the state, because there's another faction out there that probably doesn't have that info. Let it be known that you shared certain things, but not exactly what, unless you have a private venue by which you can communicate that info with individuals you trust.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

...

just because I get pissed and rage doesn't make me an asshole

especially when it is about someone being completely deluded about something and when I give them CONCRETE EVIDENCE WITH MULTIPLE EXAMPLES of why what they say is wrong and they still can't acknowledge it and continue to disrespect me - do you understand the nuances around all this? weshould talk post game if not and in the meantime, play the game please

Yes, it does.

Agree that any such discussion should happen post game though.

Fuzzy, where you at foo? Need thoughts on things from the quiet ones, like yourself.

-Cerb

Pedit; ninjaed yo. I eh, I forgot to vote. Drixx asked me who, and I just spaced on it. :/

[Reasonably Rational]

"We will raise our hands above us,
Cold steel shining in the sun,
And with these hands that will not bleed,
My father's battle will be won!"

-Thomas Light

VOTECOUNT 1.09 : DEADLINE HIT

Furude Hanyu (6):

drealmerz7, Yume, Gorkington, Vaxkiller, Xiao Long, McMenno

With 13 Alive, it takes 7 to Lynch.
Deadline

: (expired on 2017-11-06 23:00:00)

Elec Man has rendered Almost Chara voteless
Titus does not count as a living player for the purposes of deciding Win Conditions.

This is your pool then fuzzy? Order them from most suspicious to least in your opinion.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Dammit Titus, you always do this "revealing cop results" thing way too damn early in the day. I know it's a blitz, but fuck.

At least let him answer my question first so we ciuld have got those associatives.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@whoever is busy going on about furude lying/having nefarious intentions:

Nothing in their role pm indicates any knowledge of what the state win condition looks like. How could they have been playing towards a win con they knew nothing about? In addition, their win con while alive was CLEARLY the town win con AND they were trying to keep from dying...which doesn't make sense if they were planning on trying to win with the state.

I believe we should take everything they said at face value as coming from town essentially. They may have tried to get people to claim to give themselves a better chance of winning post death, but that seems like the only thing their traitor type effect would have changed about their play.

Something that's worth doing, though, is looking through their iso for traitor crumbs and seeing if anyone did anything to respond to them.

@Yume: my potential scum pool is this

AC
Yume
Havo
Vax

What are your thoughts on the names there that aren't your own?

@Fuzzy: Good thought on the alternating kill control theory. Quite possible.

Regarding Menno death: it's possible the state both shot at Menno and used their power on him just in case he survived, but I think it's more likely the state just used their power on him and the other faction shot at him to make it SEEM like the state were in charge of the nk.

Why do I think this?

Our win con. With two kills per night, and my ability that I'm incentivized to use early, after tomorrow night the expected living players are 6, which means only two lynches to achieve the FoD removal wincon. I don't think that's a reasonable number of chances to succeed at that win con(unless the FoD faction is just one slot, which is possible I guess?). With one kill per night, there are 3 lynches to pull that off in, which is more reasonable.

In addition, there was a decent bit of conversations about who the "real" scum were, and generally speaking the killing faction(s) are considered the primary threats. By killing the only slot who was known to be a threat to the state, they minimized the chance of getting stoppee by protectIves from going after conftown, and made it more likely town would focus more on removing state than FoD, whenever we get a hint of one over the other.

After writing that out, it feels super conspiracy theory, lol. Such marginal benefit to whoever performed the kill. :/ Maybe they were just redirected or something. :/

I do think just one nk/night makes sense though.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Gorkington, where are you, we need your insight!

Fuzzy, can you answer the question I asked Yume please and thank you. Don't need to answer my question from earliee, that was just to support Titus' reaction test. ^^ I always knew you were town.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Is Vax town by play or purely by role? How is AC null? They've certainly said enough to develop feelings one way or another. How do you feel about their push on McMenno? How about drealmerz unwillingness to lynch Menno d1, but plan for him ti be lynched at a later date?

-Cerb

Pedit; thanks for the reminder

@Varsoon: did Furude know they would be joining the state upon death, and that the pts they had created would become visible to the state? Did they know the state win con before their death?

I assume they did, but let's confirm. And if they did, it doesn't change my point at all. How would they play towards a win con they didn't know? How would they lie in a way that would be helpful for a win con they didn't know?

[Reasonably Rational]

Yep, I get that. I'm just saying I don't see how they could have played in any sort of way negative to town, or WHY they would have done that, when they didn't know their post death win con.

I think this conversation might be wandering to the point where it's not useful though.

Any answer for the questions I just asked?

-Cerb

Pedit: thanks gork! Thoughts on AC, yume, havo, and Vax please?

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, btw, I agree with fuzzy on lynching inside the wagon. The overlap between my suspect pool and the wagon is yume and vax.

I'd support either of those today, but I prefer vax between the two of them. I'm also suspicious of drealm and desp, but people whose judgment I trust think they're town and I lack cause to doubt their read.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Happy Cake day Gork!

@RR/Yume what about Havo?

Why should anyone believe your mason claim when you or Xiao was not shot? Since when do masons get an ability to confirm anyone else? This Drealmerz vote is akin to the Math vote in Stevens Universe. Why do you oppose?

What about havo? I have little opinion on havo, they require an iso check. I'm fundamentally suspicious of them cuz poe, if nothing else, but they haven't exactly done anything.l that jumped out at me.

No idea why we weren't shot at. Takes a rather high degree of paranoia to not shoot at a mason pair. As far as why people should believe our claim: the alternatives are us being hoodmates who strongly townread one another, or being scumbuddies. Anyone who knows our scum play knows we'd let a scummate burn long before we let their bad D1 play bring us down. There's no reason at all to not think we could be hoodmates who strongly town read one another, except for my own abhorrence for town lies...but then again, Drixx was the one who made the claim, so, that goes out the window.

If I had to speculate about the confirmation ability, I'd say it's because it removes the slot targeted from win cons, so if used on scum, town still need to spend a lynch on them if they want to remove that slots utility, and if it's used on town, scum no longer need to spend a kill on that slot.

I don't understand what you mean about the drealmerz/math thing.

a50 doesnt seem like scuma50
but chara feels a bit off.

havo's not doing enough and seems off.

yume feels townish but ive seen her get bogged down in dramatic fights as both scum and town so would prefer her to just drop talking to drealm and focus on beating up people she thinks are scum if shes town.

vax's role is strong.
if vax is town/not on the killing faction im guessing hes not going to be around for too long.

Noted.

I had more to say in response to your post, but not the time to state it. I'll come back to this.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Speaking of Drixx making the claim...

drixx
im telling you upfront
that if this is a fakeclaim
and youre town
im blacklisting you for good.

dont do this if youre just townreading xiao.

It's not a fake claim. I don't put my reads (especially day one reads) above anyone else so I don't do fake claim shit like that.

~Drixx

So if you're not masons we should lynch you as Drixx would never put his own reads above town right?

I assure you, Drixx did not put his own reads above town. He does do fake claim shit like that though, or at least it's within his range, which is why I noted that he made the claim, before someone came in like OMG THAT'S A SCUMCLAIM BECAUSE HE'S USING CERB BEHAVIORS TO DICTATE THE EXPECTATIONS YOU SHOULD HAVE FOR DRIXX BEHAVIORS!

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm saying Drixx would only lie as town if there was a mechanical advantage to it, and he would not lie as scum to save a flailing scummate. Not sure if he'd lie as scum to save a town slot. That's more nuanced.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yes, because scum are definitely not aware of the number of people who expressed doubt of our masonry, and would never have shot someone outside of the masonry in order to let town do exactly what they're currently doing.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yume.

There are multiple scum factions.

That means nobody should be faking their reads on anyone except for their teammates. Both scum factions are most likely still scumhunting.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

now the ability is called "he could not save himself - how could he save us?" this is from act I, track VI: after megaman defeats protomen, the crowd references him in this way. I don't think this has anything to do with my flavor though.

however, the "red-eyed assassin" is mentioned in only one song, act II: keep quiet. he is the same robot that kills doctor light's girlfriend in one of the earlier acts. now this needs some context. so in act II, some guy named "joe" appears, and he's a rebellious teen or something idk. so in the song "keep quiet", he battles and kills "the red-eyed assassin" (with a bit of help by dr light). and later in the act he plants a bomb in dr wily's main television screen, but he isn't in time to get out and dies, thereby temporarily stopping (roleblocking) dr wily's (the state's) plans. now I have deduced that I am probably joe

Titus go read. You know where. I'm not 100% caught up but seriously. Go read and talk to me there because I Swear to god...

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh hey ... I'm one of those people that Varsoon mentioned asking about the role names because I showed up and the lynch was done and I was like "Why da fuck Cerb and Titus, who both know we have an ability with that name, not speak up and counter?"

So I'm a dumb for not realizing everyone would have same role names. Feel free to point and laugh. I legit thought it was a slip tho.

~D

P.S. - Thank you to basically everyone in the game for dropping me good wishes for my birthday in one place or another. I will try and respond individually but I got the flu shot yesterday which resulted in me feeling poorly last evening which snowballed into a 104 fever early am which meant ambulance and ER time only for it to basically self resolve and the ER doc says I'm one of the "lucky" 1 in 1000 or so who have a strong immune reaction to the vaccine. Apparently that 12 hours of hell is good because I won't get the actual flu. Yay.

[Reasonably Rational]

Wait, that is my ability.

*Hug* - Thank you. I needed that.

Do you have any idea what a 104 fever does to you? I feel like a fucking truck ran me over or something.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Are you claiming that its the name of your ability as well, Lappy?

p-edit: Are you berating me?

Yeah. Varsoon clarified: ALL of us who started with Citizen role cards have the same ability names but it's for different things. I have to go look again, but I assume the FoD and State either have the same role names, or they have a citizen fake claim card which has the same role names. So basically everyone has the role ability names and they're all the same.

And since when would *hug* be berating? Do you not like *Hugs* Rose?

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Happy Birthday.

Thank you ;p

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

This needs answering.

this needs to quit dictating

Titus is confirmed town IC. When you're IC, your job is to lead town. What part of that is hard for you to understand?

yay, titus arrogance is here!

"we are not lynching yume today, I am your dictator!!!"

See above.

(titus is one of the worst players on the site, fyi)

Disagree. I could give you a list. Go look up Suikoden in my (Drixx) threads. That should suffice.

Speaking of Drixx making the claim...

drixx
im telling you upfront
that if this is a fakeclaim
and youre town
im blacklisting you for good.

dont do this if youre just townreading xiao.

It's not a fake claim. I don't put my reads (especially day one reads) above anyone else so I don't do fake claim shit like that.

~Drixx

So if you're not masons we should lynch you as Drixx would never put his own reads above town right?

If we assume I made a fake claim, you should definitely lynch me if I did so because of putting my own reads above the town. If we assume I made a fake claim but I had some other reason for doing so, then what I said to Gorkington would just be a carefully phrased post that would allow me to avoid the question of whether I was faking or not faking.

Of course: you already know the answer since you have a PT with you and you are fully informed of everything. You know exactly why I stepped in and saved Xiao and you know it wasn't a read. Furthermore, you know other things that I'm not going to say to the thread at large because I'm not a fucking idiot.

@Xiao Long, Just how do you have a PT with RR?

Varsoon, I guess?

Let's be frank here. You and RR are not masons. So just how do you have a PT with RR?

This is not useful at all. There's only 3 possible answers, and only 2 of them have a decent level of probability.

RR
Sure you did.....(knew I was town all along)

Not much to say about the list atm

letz have some fun......lets play a game. Do we want fuzzy to live.

I am a quasi governor. Not going to go into details. If the FOD or State faction kills me than the lose a chance I might accidently save them from getting lynched. But do they want to keep a coftown around. Have fun scum

Why fuzzy? SMH.

Confusion has arisen over the 'flavor names' on player rolecards.
Every single Citizen Rolecard has the same progression of flavor names for abilities, even if the abilities themselves are different.
These flavor names include the following:
"HE COULD NOT SAVE HIMSELF; HOW COULD HE SAVE US?"
"FOR ALL THE BLOOD HE SHED, YOUR BROTHER FAILED US."
"WHY DO YOU CRY FOR HIM?"
"GIVE US THE ROPE!"
"GIVE US A GRAVE!"
"THERE IS NOTHING YOU COULD DO."
"DON'T TURN YOUR BACK ON THE CITY."

These are GENERIC flavor names intended to mask the true flavor of Citizen Role PMs and to provide non-town factions safe flavor names to claim.
Just because another player has the same flavor names as your role does not mean they have the same abilities as you.

You mean this? There are seven flavor names here and we can't all have all seven of them as our ability flavors.

Yes but look at what he said. He said we all have our role abilities named from that pool.

~Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

I haven't caught up so I don't know if this has been covered but furudehanyu knew about their alternate wincondition and that they'd get access to the state chat if they died

I asked the mod

I can ask him publicly / someone else can if you want proof

Varsoon came in and publicly explained what they knew. He also said they still have the same wincon.

[Reasonably Rational]

thoughts as I catch up:

FoD could be 1 slot, and it could be Vax

Just some flavor theory here. This could be spot on or completely not even close.

Father of Death probably refers to Dr. Light and Protoman because from the view of the story, he invented the technology that led to the robots. The robots that went evil and aren't under his control are the ones we see popping abilities at day start, so that would make that The State.

So yeah; Vax could totally be FoD. It's possible. It would require Varsoon to have set this game up where the traditional "good guys" in the megaman universe are viewed as the "Fathers" of death, which is plausible.

~Drixx

P.S. - Someone I thought I quoted on my catchup threw a FoS on us because we mentioned The Reporter and that's what Furude flipped as. We knew about that being a role because the ability that made Titus into an IC required that the reporter still be alive.

[Reasonably Rational]

Why is the third option not applicable, Lappy? What is it that makes it impossible that you and Xiao are scum together?

The options: (From my PoV)

1.) Game setup.
2.) One party initiated
3.) An outside party targeted to create.

The outside party targeting to create is a pretty low probability. That leaves it as either 1 or 2. #1 contains the possibility of scum together, but we're not scum. From your PoV you can only read our actions and posts to decide that for yourself. But since we're not scum, it's pretty obvious from my PoV exactly what happened. That obviousness combined with a piece of information we and Titus have is what provoked my actions.

I won't apologize for them, even if you guys go all derp on us and lynch us over it. I didn't lie when I told my friend cheet that I wouldn't make such a claim based upon my reads, because I don't trust my reads that heavily. I had a much different reason for my actions. Titus knows it (but is refusing to talk to me because I was so shocked by what she's doing I yelled at her, or at least I'm assuming that's why she won't talk to me).

This game is almost spot on in line with what I did in mafiaception, except in mafiaception I didn't have an IC come in and take away the most important part of the gambit. Instead, I made scum shoot me multiple times en route to a perfect win, which was the idea here. Combine Suikoden organization from Titus with gambit similar to mafiaception and then roll to a perfect win. That was the plan anyway.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

So you wanted to be shot? Then why weren't you shot?

Because the plan was for us to out the cop results and draw fire for being investigative.

I'm pretty sure that Titus doesn't actually scum read us atm. I think she wanted/wants to be sure. She did some shit I think is borderline playing against wincon for that. I unloaded pretty heavily on her in our PT when I was catching up. So far she's not responding.

Are Cerb and I really THAT hard to read?

~Drixx

P.S. - It's almost certain that Xiao started the PT with us and just didn't own up to it. Like 90% certainty. The other 10% is if someone else put us in a PT together, but there has been no other reported situations of something like that, so it's probably not the case (and seemed pretty unlikely to begin with).

[Reasonably Rational]

Stay out of this drealmerz. This is between me and them, and it's kinda personal.

I can't explain why scum chose what they did Yume. We really are

not scum

this game. Our plan was to make ourselves the priority target by claiming the cop results. The whole thing was a gambit to that end, very similar to how I played in mafiaception. I can link if you like. I was really hoping to repeat that performance. I made scum kill me multiple times in that game.

Like the only thing I can say right now is this:

At the end of this game, you will be able to read our hydra PT and conversation and you will not feel at all betrayed by us.

- That's all I can say to put your mind at ease now my friend. When the game ends, you will know for sure that we are indeed doing our best for town. The only way I could do more to set you at ease now would be to break the rules and post our role pm and as much as we like you, that's not a thing I'm going to do.

On a more personal note:

You have to separate personal relationships from the game though Yume. Cerb and I are both legitimately your friends. In SU2, we were assigned scum and you weren't, so in the game it was our job to remove you. It wasn't personal. We felt bad about it even though it wasn't personal. You can go read our hydra PT from that game and search for your name and you will see that we felt bad about it. You will

know

how we feel about you, so you don't have to worry about it.

With love and cookies,
Drixx

[Reasonably Rational]

Am I the only one that thinks Yami's logic doesn't add up? Am I missing something that's obvious?

no, you are absolutley correct and yume is scum

It's possible. She would have had to advance a LOT in her scum game to be using her current tack emotionally against us.

hello! sorry for my absence. (which i suppose hasn't been that long, but Blitz.)
i'll read when i get a second.
i have no idea how to read Yume. but considering SU2, her relationship with Titus, and the situation with RR, there's nothing here that would make me want to vote her. i'd rather trust Titus's read on her unless there's reason not to.

and yes, Drixx, you are that hard to read. everything is mechanics and logic with you two.
working theory was Xiao and RR were the State. let's see where that goes.
~Chara

I really feel like we're not that hard to read, but I suppose thanks for the compliment.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

So you wanted to be shot? Then why weren't you shot?

Because the plan was for us to out the cop results and draw fire for being investigative.

I'm pretty sure that Titus doesn't actually scum read us atm. I think she wanted/wants to be sure. She did some shit I think is borderline playing against wincon for that. I unloaded pretty heavily on her in our PT when I was catching up. So far she's not responding.

Are Cerb and I really THAT hard to read?

~Drixx

P.S. - It's almost certain that Xiao started the PT with us and just didn't own up to it. Like 90% certainty. The other 10% is if someone else put us in a PT together, but there has been no other reported situations of something like that, so it's probably not the case (and seemed pretty unlikely to begin with).

No I scumread you. I'm voting you.

I would love for you to explain how you faking masons was a good thing and not putting your Xiao read above ours. Second, why did you lie to me if you were just going to shoot me? Third, how do you and Xiao have a PT and not be masons? I am withholding the fourth reason because not total moron.

Binary. Either Xiao is or isn't a cop. Either way he has to provide results. That's so simple it defies logic that you are even asking. Of course one steps in and saves a claimed cop. Worst case they give out clears and get roped when they're caught out. That's not a read play; it's a utility play. Best case, by the way, is he would have given up a partner. Since it was fairly obvious he was most likely one of the other 2 factions (See next point).

I already said to you (so you pretending not to know is kind of bad) that I assumed Xiao triggered the PT with us. That seemed like a trivially easy conclusion to arrive at. Since you were able to make a PT with us and Furude made PTs with everyone, then it seems more likely than not that he's on one of the other factions. Keep your friends close; enemies closer. Plus if he bought that we were all in TRing him, he might have given up a partner on the thinking it would get him to a win.

Umm... we didn't shoot you? You're not dead. You just don't count as alive for the purpose of any win condition. That's granting IC status with what I think was meant to be a drawback, except it's not. You don't lose your role or ability to vote or anything. But you did gain mod confirmed IC and since it won't help any faction to kill you, you also basically won't ever get shot. That's a win all the way around.

Your bullshit irrational behavior with me I thought was done. Obviously you can't bring yourself to behave like an adult when it comes to me, so this will be the last game we play together. You're also a coward for avoiding me in the PT when I pointed out why what you did was ridiculously stupid, even if we posit my slot as scum (which we're not).

Like ... your play is so bad today I'm basically on the verge of just quoting Dreal when it comes to you. Complete garbage. I should have picked someone else to give control to. Would have picked us, obviously, but it was our fucking ability and couldn't self target.

~D

PS - No I'm not AtE or anything. I'm serious. I'm so done with your shit. I should have dropped you like a bad habit after you literally said I was insane by DSM standards. I just keep giving you chances and you keep repaying me with shit sandwiches. No more.

[Reasonably Rational]

Sooo, they are fake masons? So many words when so little will do.

We told Titus the moment the day ended. She outed it earlier today instead of engaging her brain or bothering to talk to us. She has done pretty significant damage to our (hers and us and whomever else is among the dead) wincon for like exactly zero reason. Like ... whichever faction Xiao is with, there's zero chance he hands us a guilty ever now. GG throwing that away.

Like ... even if through some kind of brain malfunction she decided we're scum ... throwing away someone who is locked into giving you alignment results and has every incentive to be honest about it is about as fucking stupid a play as is possible.

The worst part is that she knows she fucked up and she's being a coward and won't talk in PT to try and salvage something from it. You know someone knows they done fucked up when they're acting like a dog and avoiding interaction.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I need re-calibrate my reads

That should be easy. Xiao is like 90% one of the {State, FoD} and probably initiated the PT with us. There's an outside chance someone else neighbored us but it doesn't make sense. Obviously if someone else comes forward and claims to have done so, then Xiao has less chance to be one of the other alignments.

Titus is conftown but currently doing her best to throw away resources for no reason.

Dreal is probably town. Desperado is probably town.

Vax is probably scum because we're in a dystopian flavoring of megaman so Dr. Light and Protoman wouldn't be good guys.

That's where I am atm. Gut says Vax+Havo are FoD and Xiao/? are State, but if Vax+Havo are FoD and we rope them, I would assume that ends FoD and it doesn't matter what Xiao is because we win.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Umm... we didn't shoot you? You're not dead. You just don't count as alive for the purpose of any win condition. That's granting IC status with what I think was meant to be a drawback, except it's not. You don't lose your role or ability to vote or anything. But you did gain mod confirmed IC and since it won't help any faction to kill you, you also basically won't ever get shot. That's a win all the way around.

it's not a win all the way around. Titus being dead for the purposes of win conditions

is

a drawback. you can argue the advantages outweigh the benefits, but you can't pretend there wasn't a downside.

also, i must have missed the part of her ISO where she personally insulted you (in this game?)
why does confirmation of her scumread on you illicit this response?
~Chara

Past history and Titus breaking promises. She doesn't get kid gloves when she breaks her promises. She gets treated like she deserves. You really want to see it? I'll ask Varsoon to send you the links. I'm restraining myself from unloading as hard as I want to.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

If Xaio is a cop, why would he care. Your saying he would jsut throw the game and not get guilties? I dont understand.

I'm assuming he's more likely to be State than FoD, and that he's a cop because it looks like 'The State' wins by eliminating 'Father of Death' with at least six total people still alive. Makes sense for them to have a way to find the FoD because otherwise the situation flips around and we can only win by taking the state out.

So I'm pretty sure he IS a cop, but probably not a member of the dead. We had him leashed and tied down but Titus went off into lala land. I don't see why Xiao would cooperate now. Presuming we leave him alive, I assume he'll be searching for FoD and trying to hand us guilties fast enough to end the game ... but FoD is just going to shoot him now, because Titus couldn't be bothered to engage her brain and ask questions until she understood what I was doing so the whole plan is in shambles.

Seriously. Titus didn't talk to me

at all

before just coming to the thread and ripping up the plan. That's fucking atrocious. She's welcome to disagree but freaking talk to me, see what I'm thinking and what my goals are, and work with me. She clearly didn't at all understand the point of the gambit, even though she's watched me run it before.

~D

P-edit: I don't view the "not alive for purposes of wincon" a down side, because it disincentivizes scum from killing the IC. The real downside of that is that it shortens the window where it appears we can win with state instead of having to find and kill the state. I assumed a rational Titus working with Cerb and I would be well worth that "downside", and that the fact any kill on her would be wasted was a bonus. I guess it's down to how you want to look at it.

[Reasonably Rational]

How sure are you of myself and havo?

Your role ability makes you Dr. Light's creation (Protoman/Megaman). In this flavor, you make the most sense as being "Father of Death" with a partner who would be Dr. Light. We were all scum reading you yesterday until I mistakenly assumed that you being megaman/protoman would make you town. Take away that assumption and you're back to the read we had, and I'm the only one who had reservations about scum reading you, and that was based upon your reads list.

In other words ... time for another reads list and maybe start to put more effort in because I was a derp and saved you from the rope yesterday and in doing so helped the state. Don't think I'm going to want to compound that error.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

drixx I'm with you except for desp probably town, that I'm not at at all, been getting a little less sure on havo and more and more sure on so long now that it's clear it's not a masonry

where are you with fuzzy?

I've always had a hard time reading Fuzzy. Cerb is much better at it, and I don't believe he's ever been wrong when we've played with Fuzzy. It would be much better if you wait for Cerb to pop in for a read on fuzzy.

Right now I'm leaning town on fuzzy just because of the level of paranoia displayed. Fuzzy

could

be scum but we're the wrong person to be paranoid of if so.

Gun to my head right now? I'd say fuzzy is probably town.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I think flavor mechanic that would make sense for fathers of death is to be able to "recruit" members of "the dead" (into hoods) *looking at yume*

For Yume to be scum, she would have had to develop her scum game tenfold since we last saw her as scum. Now ... she has been improving by leaps and bounds, so I'm not going to say it's impossible, but I would need some convincing to conclude Yume is scum.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I'm sorry AC, but your reasoning is flawed. You are stating that you believe we would have picked you out of all slots to make voteless. Why do you think if we were not town we would choose you over {insert other slots}?

Go talk to Chara and clear your dissonance too. Chara realized already the obvious reason why we're town. Go talk and gain enlightenment. We're gonna need to avoid shit like the dissonance coming from your slot because all we've managed so far is to help the state, and helping the state means we need to win fast while they will be predisposed to be helpful towards us. Can't afford to fuck around with spending time defending our slot, especially since I'm moving on Saturday.

Ask what you gotta ask and do what you gotta do to figure us out A50.

~D

P.S. - I believe Xiao is almost certainly State, for reasons I already pointed out. I would suggest we see if he will publicly admit it and leash as a tradeoff. He gets to live and try to find FoD and if that fails and we get down to where the state becomes our win condition, then we have him already (presuming I'm right and he admits it and leashes, etc...) and also potentially subsequent hints at who else is state.

Until Titus blew it up, he was happy to just investigate whomever she said and accepted me defending him at face value. Now he's outed so the situation changes. Instead of just investigating whomever Titus says, he's going to want to hand us a guilty that serves his ends. In all cases, I see no reason to rope him before the wincon changes from eliminated FoD to eliminate state unless he refuses to co-operate. Like ... he's a bird in the hand already, but right now he's a friendly bird, I

THINK

. I'll repeat the process of reasoning for those who may have missed it:

1.) We're the dead (town).
2.) We have a PT with Xiao but no explanation for it. The most probable reason is he created it and is another faction.
3.) State appears to be all about info given their traitor was able to just PT everyone. It therefore follows state is more likely to be PT makers.

So basically I just assumed he was another faction when game started and given what we've seen I think it makes sense to assume state. Whenever he wakes up, we'll see what he says I guess.

Make sense?

[Reasonably Rational]

Sooo, they are fake masons? So many words when so little will do.

We told Titus the moment the day ended. She outed it earlier today instead of engaging her brain or bothering to talk to us. She has done pretty significant damage to our (hers and us and whomever else is among the dead) wincon for like exactly zero reason. Like ... whichever faction Xiao is with, there's zero chance he hands us a guilty ever now. GG throwing that away.

Like ... even if through some kind of brain malfunction she decided we're scum ... throwing away someone who is locked into giving you alignment results and has every incentive to be honest about it is about as fucking stupid a play as is possible.

The worst part is that she knows she fucked up and she's being a coward and won't talk in PT to try and salvage something from it. You know someone knows they done fucked up when they're acting like a dog and avoiding interaction.

~D

Drixx, as far as I am concerned. I didn't. You lied deliberately to save someone based on your own contradiction we should be lynching you. Nothing more. Nothing less. Now, I gave you several opportunities to fess up and nothing. Instead you and Cerb wanted me to coach you.

That doesn't even cover the fact your IC murder ability conviently needed the reporter still alive. Now why would you need that if you're town?

Why would you be going after Gork early?

Why would you be pissed at me wanting no more lies?

I understood why you were pissed in Space Dandy and ultimately accepted my lynch. Here, it feels like you sucker punched me at go and invoked our past conflicts which are irrelevant.

The most probable reason is he created it and is another faction.

Isn't it more plausible that you're just the scum manipulating me?

No it's not, and fuck off with your shit. You have REFUSED to talk to ME at all today in our PT. Once I showed up and outlined exactly why I made the gambit and the utility it provided, you've been too much a coward to engage with that in any way. The only explanation is that you can't counter the logic of what I said to you. That's because we're town and I chose to do a pro-town move and once I outlined the whole thing, you were embarrassed that you fucked up, so you just refused to engage. There's no other explanation. If you could counter what I said to you, then you would have. It's as simple as that.

Of COURSE Cerberus asked you what you wanted to do. He thought you were running some kind of gambit, because we literally and intentionally wanted YOU to be completely trustworthy so we wouldn't have to be paranoid about you. Like ... think of all the very long list of games now going all the way back to WDPT where you have been paranoid of me and/or Cerb and the only time we were ever actually scum was SU2. That failure rate on your part should have taught you some things, and we thought it had.

Instead, He left me a confused note because we legitimately told you exactly what we had done the moment the day ended and you had all the night phase to poke and prod and ask questions about it or do ANYTHING AT ALL if you were not sure about us. Instead you did nothing but change your mind a few times about who to ask Xiao to investigate. THEN you stepped in and totally fucked with the plan that was outlined to you, with no warning whatsoever, and when Cerberus asked what the gameplan was, you refused to engage with him and claimed he was asking for coaching.

As far as what I said to Cheet; it stands. I didn't make the play because of a read. I made it for utility. I outlined this already to you and in the thread. Nobody but you seems bothered. Having a player you are fairly certain is one of the other factions in a position where they're giving you info willingly is literally the definition of how to win at mafia. I'm sorry but no matter how much you want to say my motive was that I read Xiao as town, it simply wasn't, and you KNEW THAT BEFORE THE DAY STARTED. You knew it was specifically to keep a claimed cop alive. So why all the posts where you're trying to say it's something else?

Essentially your entire suspicion rests upon the fact that Cerberus personally wasn't curious about the PT with Xiao. Well no fucking shit. We got THREE PTs to start the game. We didn't express a shit load of curiosity to you about it did we? Why would you have expected him to do so with Xiao then? I also told you that I

personally

made assumptions and I told you what they were. But you've refused to even TALK to me.

So no; this isn't me scum manipulating you, because I'm not scum and I've got the same wincon as you do. This is me being legitimately outraged with you because you're pulling bullshit again. You got paranoid and instead of talking to me or engaging with me, you chose to destroy a very solid plan and setup. Like ... we had Xiao legit happy to investigate whomever, and we had us there to claim the results as if it were coming from us so the fire came at us. You blew that up without having a single word of conversation with me. We talked about this A LOT after SD2, so you know why I'm pissed. Don't pretend otherwise.

You want to salvage this? There's posts waiting for you that you've ignored all day. You are a free agent. Do what you want. One path leads to I'm done with you (and by association this site because you sign up for all the games I'm interested in, so thank you for that), the other means you're actually an honest decent person who isn't intentionally fucking with me just for your own amusement. I'm done with the latter, so you decide who you are.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

The actions and NK dont make any sense to me.

I know for a fact the State used their ability on the Mcmenno.

With 2 scum factions I assumed 2 kills. But only Mcmenno died. SO they both targeted Mcmenno (crazy) or one was blocked.

I keep thinking about this, and this is how it has to be:

The state used Ice Man on Mcmenno to neutralize the threat (block) and also killed him for a few possible reasons:

A. Maybe the other team gets the NK the next night.
B. The abilities seem to be one time use, so if they kill him the next night he could still pull of his ability and kill one of them.

It's pretty obvious the State were scared because they used their ability and the NK. I'm interested in looking into who mcmenno was scum reading.



I don't like this RR/xiao push

The RB would've only worked the NEXT night, so why didn't they just kill him and use the ability (or any other they have) on someone else? Killing someone tonight THEN RB'in them the next doesn't make sense to me at all.

~A50

Ding ding ding! Now you have everything you need to know we're town. Let me know when you catch up to your other head. It's kind of amusing to watch you catch up and pick up on the pieces.

but the fact I make both me and my target unkillable and generally untargetable

Then why don't you change your target again to FUZZY?? He is confirmed by a conf!Town.. lust sayin'

~A50

Fuzzy is not conftown. Xiao allegedly checked Fuzzy.

And returned that he's town. So there's literally no reason to doubt that until Xiao is resolved. Since you blew up the plan Cerb and I had, I already asked Xiao in our PT to come clean if he's State and I told him I would continue to point out that if he's State he should be kept around to find FoD until the win con changes. Of course, assuming that he is State and he decides to go ahead and claim it (which would be dangerous since if you read our wincon, we can just bypass worrying about FoD and kill state for the win), then even if we let him live, the FoD will be incentivized to kill him lest he find them out.

So at this point, Xiao is facing a lose/lose/lose ... all because you couldn't be bothered to talk to me about the plan we had and work through the logic of it. Like ... if he's town and claims that, he probably gets lynched today. If he's state and claims that and we let him live, he gets killed by FoD. Or if he's state and claims it and we decide to go with eliminating the state and not worrying about FoD, then we lynch him. Man ... those are some great fucking choices for him yeah?

Happy with yourself?

You know what the worst part is? We have no idea how big the state and FoD are. For all we know, the win cons are a trap. It may not actually be possible to take out all of state if we get so low in numbers that taking out FoD no longer wins the game for us. I'm pretty sure that idea never occurred to you. You just act recklessly and then you wonder why people like Dreal say what they do about you.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, DRIXX

I sure can wait 24 more hours to lynch your slot


also happy scums day, Gork.

~A50

You won't want to lynch us when you catch up. Just go talk to Chara already.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

FoD could be 1 slot,

I doubt it. I mean, I did think along the same lines (because the difference between our two win cons lead to believe The State was a bigger faction) but then realized this means the game could've ended on D1 if we were lucky enough to lynch that particular slot, which is something I wouldn't expect from Varsoon.

It could be 3 The State and 2 TFoD though, as that would not end the game on D1 and can explain the difference between the win cons, but -more importantly- explains why The Dead can also win with EITHER factions. (This last one was confirmed when Varsoon asserted Furude's alignment is still The Dead but can only with "with" The State, which means win con 1 only applies for him as that IS us winning "with" The State).

~A50

State could also be larger than we would normally assume a non-town faction to be. My biggest worry is that the kill the state win con is a trap. That may just be Varsoon!Paranoia though. Been through some crazy setups with Varsoon. The one thing is they're always fun, but holy shit do you have to think around corners.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I'll agree with the proud bit. There wouldn't BE any yelling in the PT if you had talked to me. We laid out the plan and you pretended to be fine with it, and then carpet bombed it. If you had expressed any of what you just said in #1660 as "I'm not so sure about you guys", I was there and available in real time. I even told you as much and waited around instead of doing some packing.

The problem you have (and have had since the first time we played) is that you evaluate things and assign high probability to negatives. That's fine as far as sorting goes or whatever. But let's be real here: you have literally

NEVER

town read me or the RR hydra. Ever. (Except SU when we were IC and you were scum and since you were scum that doesn't really count). It has been YEARS of game after game after game after game after game of you coming to the wrong conclusion. We were scum once in all of that. I mean ... for fuck's sake in we didn't playtest this I was cleared by a flipped cop and you STILL refused to believe I was town. You have a very clear negative bias towards me/us in mafia games (and are perfectly friendly when it comes to outside of games). It would be flattering if it wasn't so ridiculous and absurdly frustrating.

There's a solid town motivation clear in everything we've done. There has to be, because we're town.

And being honest: In this game I would trust you. I had a town read on you strong enough that I kinda bullied Cerb into us making you the IC. So it wouldn't matter to me the rest of that stuff, because there is a reasonable town motivated explanation for every question on your list.

And yes I did call you a coward for refusing to talk to me. We were 100% honest and upfront with you about

everything

, and I took the time to walk you through point by point where you had come to bad conclusions and explained in great detail the thinking behind the play and what the plan was. You just refuse to respond. The only reasonable explanation is that you cannot refute any of it and you see that there really is a town motivation and that I had an awesome plan and I was aware of the potential snake in the grass and had even worked that into the plan. All you had to do was talk to me and we could have avoided you blowing this shit up.

I'm going to sleep. I told Xiao in our PT that if he is State, his best play is to admit it to Cerb and I and let us advocate for leashing him and at least giving him the chance to help us eliminate FoD while enough people remain alive that he would win also. I am reasonably certain that Xiao is probably State because it explains the origin of our PT and the power level. I'm fairly certain he is actually a cop because it would make sense for state to have a cop in a game where they become the enemy if too many people die.

I really was looking forward to tag teaming with you and running the enemy into the ground this game. The shame of it is that you will see after the game in PTs just how excited I was. You will see me working my ass off to try and put on a clinic for town play. I was literally certain we were finally clicking together and then I take a break from packing and catch up on the game and see that you randomly let your paranoia get to you and took a wrecking ball to shit. All I can say is you'll see. If you are going to take the path where you don't talk to me in the PT, that's your choice. You can see afterwards and then what?

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: Xiao

So, it was Ciao who provided the result, eh? And you all believed him? (@Titus/Drixx/Cerb). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I though Mr V hated Cops. Or am I confusing him with someone else? (Kuroi maybe?)

~A50

Varsoon does hate cops. Everyone knows that. Therefore, what would Varsoon do? (This is the problem with trying to outthink Varsoon).

I believe Xiao is a cop because it lines up with the rest of the things I believe about him and it lines up with our win condition. Why do we have a two phase win condition? Why do we suddenly not care about "The Father of Death" after enough people die and swap to hunting "The State" instead? That puts "The State" into a position where they can't be open about who they are because the lazy town just kills them, but they still have to help town and try to win fast. What role can help them do that?

That's why I believe Xiao.

Titus is also using our complete open honesty against us here today. Part of the reason our plan called for us to credit Xiao with our ability and for us to claim his results is that we can only be killed by lynching. We think this is probably a balance for the fact that we lose if we get down to 1 of us alive among the dead. I asked Varsoon several specific case examples. I'll ask one publicly now (substituting "the dead" for "we" as he can't answer the latter obviously):

@Varsoon: Why do "the dead" auto-lose at 1 alive? There could be a situation where 2 "Father of Dead" and 1 "State" and 1 "dead" were alive and the last state was killed and that would meet the win condition of the state being eliminated. The win condition even says we only need one dead alive for that ... but if we auto lose when we hit 1 alive, how would that work?

So yeah. We're a REALLY bad idea for an early lynch, especially on a paranoia case. By all means if this game goes long enough we should be lynched before endgame. Day 2 is absolutely the 2nd stupidest time to lynch us though. We really are fighting for the dead and we really are probably an important balance piece to keep us from auto-losing and since we can only die via lynch, and that's out there (interesting that Titus knows that, but doesn't talk about it at all, btw), let's try and maximize our EV here.


It should now make absolutely perfect sense to everyone why I ran the gambit I did. I would do it again too. If someone hadn't got a case of the paranoias, we would have been the prime target for NK starting tonight, only we could never be killed at night. We might have drawn 2 or even as many as 3 kill attempts if it played out well. Starting to understand why I'm so irritated with Titus yet?

The only reason I can see Titus might have to want to lynch dreal is that he called her bad, but since she's playing bad right now, I kind of don't see why that means he should be lynched. I'm open to reason/logic/etc... if someone cares to employ those things.

~D

P.S. - The angry vindictive part of me really can't wait until post-game when people get to read the PTs. For whatever reason I'm feeling much more emotional right now about mafia than normal, and I am thirsting for satisfaction. The normally chill part of me is worried people gonna be hurt by things he said in anger.

[Reasonably Rational]

vax and havo fod

rr and xiao state

pretty sure we're done here

We're not state, but if you're right about vax and havo, who the fuck care? It will be game over.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Drixx, I did this in this manner for a reason. You both reacted this hostile when I caught you as scum in Steven Universe 2. You guiltied me in that hood with a barrage of attacks and twisted me there. You always have an explanation.

I am more concerned with finding scum. I'd rather discuss your reads now than this. Consider being manipulated by one too many good scums and if you're honest that's the thing.

I wanted you to be town too fwiw.

Nobody "Caught" us as scum in SU2. Put a pin in your ego. Mastina basically as much as admitted she was voting to lynch us because she would rather lose with us than to us. This is your problem. Even if you HAD "caught" us, that would have been your lone success in nearly 3 years.

How about we go game by game through all the games where you have put me through hell when you were wrong?

How about I start quoting from Space Dandy 2 the abuse you leveled upon me because you thought it was okay to say those things to me because you thought I was scum? Let's talk about that for awhile yeah?

You have exactly one game you can point to and say "you guys are good as scum" and about 20 you have to point to and go "I was a fucking moron and treated you like shit because I can't read you and just default to assuming you are scum every ... fucking ... game." - Do you REALLY want to go walking down memory lane? It's really fucking ugly when I start quoting some of the shit you've said to me. You've gone WAAAAAYYYYYY further than I have.

But I mean ... to quote my favorite line from "Tombstone" ... "I'm your Huckleberry." and ... "Say when. Say when."

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

I already said to you (so you pretending not to know is kind of bad) that I assumed Xiao triggered the PT with us. That seemed like a trivially easy conclusion to arrive at. Since you were able to make a PT with us and Furude made PTs with everyone, then it seems more likely than not that he's on one of the other factions. Keep your friends close; enemies closer. Plus if he bought that we were all in TRing him, he might have given up a partner on the thinking it would get him to a win.

OK. This explanation actually bodes well with me, but still you had to be more considerate of other players reads. I mean, you did what you thought was right assuming you were in control and alive to explain it later, but then we didn't know how you went about it in your own mind, so it didn't feel like a townie move at all. I bought the Masons claim at first, and then I stopped looking at Xiao, and then I reconsidered as I thought your slot was the most likely source of the action on us on N0 (making us voteless on D1), which -if true- meant you were The State as it was confirmed we were silenced by them, which in turn made me SR you AND Xiao.

Also worth mentioning you have shown some hesitation at some point to lynching Furude, and that came after you mentioned your action would only work if The Reporter was alive, and then Furude flips exactly that and I had to wonder if they fave up a sign that you picked that they were The Reporter. And then it was revealed they can only win with The State, and I go back and see that they totally ignored me when I suggested you might be The State, and it hits me again that THEY might have recognized you and didn't want to make associatives, so opted to not engage us on this at all.

That and you keep bringing up "The Dead could win with The State" when -while is true- it's misleading because we could ALSO win if we ELIMINATE The State, or -if you prefer the alternative phrasing- "The Dead could win with TFoD" is just as true.

Like everywhere I looked before this post where you explained your move points to you being The State.

~A50

That's because what was being said in game was trying to put us in a position where we would draw fire. You weren't seeing what we were saying to Titus, which included full disclosure of the gambit, the reasoning for it, the plan for what to do with it, etc...

There's a bunch of shit she's not sharing because it doesn't support her paranoia.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

You put town closer to losing although with a benefit?

this is the big one

not only did you derail a push on xiao who now believe to be confscum, but you also derailed the wagon on vax, who you are now saying is scum again

oh, and the person we ended up lynching instead of either of these scumfucks is also now scum because they got lynched

Congratulations. You just towncased us. We're ruthless fuckers as scum. Go look at SU2. Our whole team was dead for like 2 solid months in realtime while we tried to bring home the win.

I happen to agree with you about Vax (after some time to think about it and consider everything we know) and there's a pretty good chance that Havo would be a 2nd there, mostly from PoE at this point. Not a lot to read Havo on properly but so many other people are putting up content that it just shakes out that way.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

i really couldn't care less what you did as scum that one time

Dude. I can link you to every scum game ever. The one common thread is that both Cerb and I are ruthless fucks to our teammates. If they get themselves in trouble we ain't got shit to do with them. My first non-newbie game on site was SMITE, and my teammates got sacrificed like chess pieces so I could win.

You just pointed out that the net result of day one is that we probably helped 3 scum.

So ... either I just suddenly changed 10+ years of scum play ... or you just towncased me.

~D

[Reasonably Rational]

Dude. I can link you to every scum game ever. The one common thread is that both Cerb and I are ruthless fucks to our teammates. If they get themselves in trouble we ain't got shit to do with them. My first non-newbie game on site was SMITE, and my teammates got sacrificed like chess pieces so I could win.

You just pointed out that the net result of day one is that we probably helped 3 scum.

So ... either I just suddenly changed 10+ years of scum play ... or you just towncased me.

1) you seem to take a lot of pride in this playstyle and frankly, it's kind of gross

2) i...still don't care

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'd love to have some advice on better scum play for when I'm scum. That's not really applicable to this situation though. But like after game, you could totally explain to me why it's gross to cut bait on members of one's scum team who screw up and get caught (genuine interest here; I respect your POV) and give me some advice. I don't really think of myself as very good at this game in general, so any advice or wisdom you have after game will be appreciated.

But for now, let's agree to leave that till then and kill scumbutts. You just basically towncased me (no matter how gross you think it is), and nobody will be able to say after this game that I did anything with any intent other than trying for a perfect town win, so let's get er done.

~D

P.S. - it's 3am. I am legit concerned for my hydra partner whose phone goes straight to voicemail and who hasn't responded to slack or text messages for over 12 hours. I can't stay up any longer though; gotta pick my brother up at the airport tomorrow as he's helping with the move.

[Reasonably Rational]

our respective opinions on the merits of bussing/cutting bait aside, it's no different than someone like mastina who never busses...except for when she does

you don't get to be town for doing pro-scum things

That's fair. It's kind of academic at this point. I'm fairly sure Vax is gonna flip FoD and then ideally Xiao spits out a FoD guilty and the FoD ends up only being 2 people and it's a perfect win and everyone can celebrate. I really do gotta sleep tho.

~D

P.S. - Cerb just made contact.

[Reasonably Rational]

So, from my perspective there's still at least SOMETHING we might be able to salvage from this entire mess:

We let Xiao live tonight, and assuming he'd scum, whichever team he's not a part of has to decide whether to shoot him and save is the mislynch, or take the risk of him catching them(or they could block him, now that they know who he is).

If he's FoD, that's a bad idea, because it means if his faction is more than one slot, we can't possibly remove them all before dropping below 6 players, and thus it's effectively a mislynch. If he's State, it's perfectly reasonable.

I do not know what the optimal play is. I really want to salvage some shred of what we were tryng to do, but at this point I don't even know if that's a good idea.

Also, based in Mennos little flavor blurb earlier in the game, it makes a lot of sense for the "good" guys to be evil, not least because of the factional names and rhe win conditions. And yes, A50s interpretation of the "town" as being a survivor faction in game seems spot on..

VOTE: Vaxkiller

Who voted for Vax killer again? I didn't notice anyone actually claiming to have voted for him last night.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Ty drealm, sorry. Crazy day yesterday, and I was busy trying to figure out if Titus had a play in mind that was going to get us shot at or Xiao shot at during the time when I was actively playing the game.

I don't know if yume can be scum or not right now. It really depends on how her interactions with Titus have gone. I don't know of this push came from her, or if it was Titus inspired.
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Yeah, your knowledge doesn't help. It sounds like what you're hunting at but not outright claiming is some sort of universal investigative that has a name I can't remember, where you know all allctions tsken, but not originators or targets. Her recruiting action took place during the day, so unless your ability addressed that, it probably wouldn't catch it regardless of whether she makes her recruits BP for the night after the day they're recruited, or if she passively makes them BP as long as they are in her hood(s).

I can't gauge how likely such a role is to exist without knowing scum win cons. It seems like it could be ridiculously strong, unless she, as the nexus, isn't protected. Even then though, it might be a bit much with everything else we've seen in the way of town power.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

some of my knowledge is that there was no ability in effect N1 that could have prevented a kill on N1

While mine does activate during the day, it's still active during the night, which means it could prevent a NK during the night, therefore, you are lying here.

Yume. Like I said before. Drealmerz clearly has a role that let's him know the nature of effects activated during the night. Since your was activates during the day it didn't show up to his ability. So he assumed you were lying.

We should be lynching Vax over a claimed cop, period. Havo is also reasonable, but there's no reason to think they're scum. The epitome of null, basically.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I would if Vax weren't objectively a better lynch.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Okay, maybe not objectively. I just feel like a havi lynch is effectively random.

Also, yume, you can't get upset with people for being suspicious of you considering there was a Bping neighborizer type effect under scum control in SU2.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Next post yo A50.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Titus, justify your Vax position please.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Titus, justify your Vax position please.

-Cerb

Vax passed my Fuzzy gambit.
Vax's role has utility. We can block a player like you or Drealmerz who should have no action.
Vax seems townish.
No VC evidence yet to counter.
Vax offered as alternative to you/Dreal.

Fuzzy gambit is pretty meh.
Blocking is also meh, in the absence of scum flips it won't prevent a kill based on how it's choreographed. I don't object to blocking me given we have no actions, but you're definitely over valuing the utility.
Elaborate on how they seem townish?
No vc evidence to counter applies to everyone with only one lynch.
Super meaningless. You're a heavily biased voice on the subject of drealmerz. Vax was scum for plenty of reasons yesterday, and only flavor spec on our part made us think he might not be. Those reasons all still hold true. If he were being offered up for the first time today as all direct counter to your suggestions, your position would have value, but given that he showed up today as the majority of those who voted last night wanted him roped, there was clearly a lot of suspicion about his slot existing before you proposed anything today.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I find it notable that xiao hasn't been run up closer to lynch by players of 2 scum factions (to me indicating the even MORE likelihood of him being scum)

and he's not defending himself at all, he's closed down, scummm

again, there was no block last Night

Valid point if not for him being put to l-2 rather swiftly yesterday. :/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VC please varsoon.

I'll be back in the morning. All the current leaders for votes are bad choices and you should all feel bad.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Are we going to end up at a compromise havo lynch? Because that's where things look to be heading. :/

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I am an open book. What would you like my thoughts on? Anything in particular?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh, one thing: that unvote by Vax was a REALLY good move if he's scum. It's making me doubt the read in him. I know it's easy enough for him to out the vote back on, but it's so nonsurvivalistic that it makes me question his scumminess.

-Cerb

Pedit: so my main objection to havo is simply that it'd PURELY a compromise lynch. Nobody actually has a scumcase against them, it's just nobody has a towncase for them. There's been very little in the way of conversation about their slot. Most slots that aren't proton feel like more useful lynches in terms of associatives. I don't want an information lynch, but I would prefer if we learned more than just the alignment of the lynched target for the day.

Drealm, I also realized you can clear up something: was a cop effect used last night? Or were your results not in a firm that answers that question?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Anyways, you were asking who else is scum besides vax. I suppose PoE has it down to havo, and some combination of xiao, drealm, and yume. I personally feel good about gork and deal at this point, and I also think it's unlikely there are 4 scum. Nonzero chance with our power+xiaos, but again, unlikely. It just seems REALLY hard to win for us with the autoloss at x players thing.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Deal=desp, stupid phone

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Oh shit, I completely forgot about AC. I think there's a 51% chance of them being town. :/

@drealmerz: a straight cop is too powerful to be dead?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@yume: I don't actually think I've EVER attempted to discredit you. I'm sorry that's what you've taken from my posting in previous games, but yeah....if you read my hydra pt/slack conversation log with drixx that exists for those games, you'll see no mention of an attempt that discredit you.

@gork: I'm inclined to believe theres a nonzero chance that the FoD is a single member faction. You saying that sounds like one of those things scum say where they describe the exact situation that's going on a an improbable hypothetical, so people don't consider that possibility. Still probtown, but that's what that post sounds like!

I really don't get the havo over Vax stuff. I'll vote for either of them, but Vax is the correct choice. Desperado is not a correct choice and people voting for him should stop.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@fuzzy: you said you're sure the hanyu wagon contains scum, and you'd rather not vote within it?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hey fuzzy: lynching Vax is within the wagon, it's in my scum pool, and it removes someone who just asked us to cop him, who just happened to be the person with a claimed role that sounds most likely to have a gf type effect since it makes sense that if proto/Megaman is evil, he'd appear to be good. ^^

-Cerb

Pedit: drealmerz, was a cop effect used last night? Just one? Or do you not know that?

[Reasonably Rational]

havo if you glance into this game before deadline you should claim given how likely of a deadline lynch you are right now.

Ok. Here you go.

I’m aligned with the Dead. I’m Town.

My role doesn’t begin until someone named the Fiancé dies.
Then I become basically a Town JOAT.
But instead of performing the actions, I get to choose a player to give them too.
And I haven’t been told the exact actions I will be able to give. Just that it’s basically
Like a JOAT.

This is one of the main reasons I been trying to lay back and not draw attention, I have been
Waiting to find the Fiancé. I know my role can be helpful but I have to be able to determine who is Town and who isn’t. And I have no idea what alignment the Fiancé would have or why they must die first.

So, backup/gated JOAT?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Wait, backup/gated inventor, actually. Not JOAT.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

He was asked to by gor I think, because he's the most likely compromise lynch right now.
Fuzzy, why aren't you interacting with me? You haven't responded to ANYTHING I've said..:/
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Havo, what are your thoughts on vax? Did you finish catching up? If so, what see your thoughts, in your own words please. No more of this "I agree with what Titus is saying." crap.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hey fuzzy: lynching Vax is within the wagon, it's in my scum pool, and it removes someone who just asked us to cop him, who just happened to be the person with a claimed role that sounds most likely to have a gf type effect since it makes sense that if proto/Megaman is evil, he'd appear to be good. ^^

-Cerb

Pedit: drealmerz, was a cop effect used last night? Just one? Or do you not know that?

2 investigatives were used last night, I figure 1 was mcmenno and the other is xiao

Thanks drealmerz, missed that. So Xiao being a cop as claimed seems likely, and it's just his alignment in question. If he's a scum cop, he's still going to want to find the other team. It's possible he fed us a false inno on a teammate, so fuzzy can't be considered conftown until Xiao flips town, but his guilties may be trustworthy.

@vax: lynching potential conftown to confirm the cop is a bad idea, period.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Eating, back in 20.

-Cerb

Pedit: How are you planning on finding the fiance when they don't even know who they are?

[Reasonably Rational]

And...you think a state or fod role would have a reason to crumb their knowledge of something no town slot should know?

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Drealmerz, havo compromise? I'd really much prefer vax, but I don't think I can comvince you to vote there..

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

"...It has passed and been forgotten.
These are the paths that we must take.
Cause you and I, Tom, we are men
And we can bend and we can break."

-Albert Wily

VOTECOUNT 2.04

Xiao Long (1):

Almost Chara,

Reasonably Rational (1):

Titus

Desperado (1):

Havo

Vaxkiller (1):

Reasonably Rational

drealmerz7 (1):

Yume
Havo(1): Gorkington
Tfl(1): Vaxkiller

Not Voting (5):

TheFuzzylogic99, Desperado, Xiao Long, Vaxkiller, drealmerz7

With 11 Alive, it takes 6 to Lynch.
Deadline

:(expired on 2017-11-11 00:10:00)

TITUS DOES NOT COUNT AS A LIVING PLAYER FOR THE PURPOSES OF DECIDING WIN CONDITIONS.
VAXKILLER IS 'WANTED'.

Nit properly formatted, but that's where it's at.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Desp was blocked from voting by vaxkiller.

Which is almost a strike against him, given that I don't recall Vax suspecting desperado, while Desperado suspected vax...so vax just blocked someone who could have helped lynch him, NOT someone who he was scumreading.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Wtf? How can you like Xiao more because of their claim??

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Wtf? How can you like Xiao more because of their claim??

-Cerb

Xiao=havo here.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

RR, you're sure yume is the dead, there's titus, you (presumably), me, mcmenno, havo, desp - you really think xiao is too?

liking xiao FOR LYNCH more

First of all, I'm not sure Yume is the dead. Maybe Drixx said so, but he didn't tell me that. I said without knowledge of her talks with titus, I can't determine her alignmenr, because I don't know if her pushes are coming from her, or from titus.

I don't think havo is town, they're nullscum at bes.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Lol, fuzzy, what did gork out??

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

Hmm. I don't really understand how gork is role fishing fuzzy. :/ also, a vote for gork is pretty wasted, since nobody else has expressed any suspicion of him really.

You do you though.

@yume: noted. So the push you were more vocal about was hers. We're the reasons given for each push yours or hers?
-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

36 minutes. I'd like us to have a consensus with 4 votes or more before we get to the last few minutes before deadline. It would be shifty to leave things in this low vc situation where one or two people could steal the lynch essentially.

-Cerb

Pedit: I'm not okay with that. I will gladly vote havo after that claim.

[Reasonably Rational]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
titus
this push on drealm seems like rb in real folk blues
i really dont think this flips scum

Qft.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

(Also, fuzzy, have some more confidence yo. You got this.)

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

O.O he's talking to fuzzy yume. :p

-Cerb