Mini 1953: XP Mafia (Game Over)

havingfitz · Post Post #948 (isolation #0) » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:28 am

Will try to catch up nlt tomorrow afternoon.

havingfitz · Post Post #958 (isolation #1) » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:53 am

Catch up.

Page 1....RVS and people not reading the game set up. zzzzzzzzz

Kind of agree with the suspicions towards Maki for just wanting to end the day.

Town reading NMS and dreal atm.

Didn't care for Vijarada's entrance. 133

Page 8....not liking the Maki side of the Ginngie/Maki scuffle.

Page 10 and we are still on the first RL day. ugh.

OK...so Maki = Maria.

Maki seems a bit over reactive on her annoyance at Ginngie.

Vax tl. Can't remember which post/s it was but was feeling a bit tl on Vijarada at this point as well.

579 @ gerry...are you scum reading NMS?

LOL at gerry piling on the pg 25 "eevee wants people to do stuff for her" comment when iirc he seems to like asking people to do stuff for him.

D'oh!

(~p29) I kind of want to see gerry lynched just to either confirm or deny the suspicions NMS has been jumping up and down about.

Dang...page 30 is 23/25ths NMS. ffs....

I'll try to finish Day 2 tonight but will get comments and vote/s down nlt tomorrow before my weekend v/la.

havingfitz · Post Post #960 (isolation #2) » Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:56 am

Day 2 catch up:

@ gerry...what is the point of this question? Other than to look interested?

I like and agree with the 2nd part of Dunn's post 789. Whoever today's block is is pretty screwed and blocking gerry again is useless (and anti-town for the lost potential).

Annnnnd Maki begins the next page (33) with a block on gerry (see my comments in the line above).

Spoiler: OBE crap

All caught up.

So if we elect a Public Mechanic any of us have the ability to use it I assume as long as we have the XP to do it.

Question is...would we want to just have the Mechanic for a) individual use or would we want to select one that b) might help us as a group? Given the mod won't confirm if scum and NK and use an action I'm not sure option b is the best way to treat the Public Mechanic and option a is probably the surest way to benefit town. My option b choice for mechanic would be neighborizer but as as b seems unlikely to succeed...

VOTE: Rolecop

I'm not really sure who I want to block. I'm townreading NMS, dreal and Vaxkiller. The others are all lumped into a kluge of suspicion or nulls. Now that I'm caught up I'll have a closer look at individuals....but until then:

Block: Maki

havingfitz · Post Post #998 (isolation #3) » Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:25 am

Weekend v/la prodge.

havingfitz · Post Post #1087 (isolation #4) » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:38 am

In post 1039, EeveeLution Army wrote:I'm assuming mafia nk takes 1nk since iirc someone died n1 unless a town vig wants to claim

This also assumes mafia can't use a training xp the same night they earn it. So 1 xp per nk seems logical.

havingfitz · Post Post #1088 (isolation #5) » Wed Nov 01, 2017 1:45 am

in before dreal flips out.

Your thoughts on kills taking more than 1 xp make sense.

havingfitz · Post Post #1092 (isolation #6) » Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:27 am

I think hypothesizing the mechanics of NKs, beyond the fact it probably takes some number of xp to do one, is of little value.

I think if we can block scum and deprive them of xp and hopefully impact their ability to nk we're doing all we can for now.

Also...I assume since no one is mentioning anything...that no one got any incriminating role cop results.

mod...if someone rolecopped mafia would they receive anything AI? Ex..would a goon with no power role come back as goon or something less AI like vanilla?

havingfitz · Post Post #1118 (isolation #7) » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:14 am

We can just speed block people and have quick ends to the day to allow town to accrue xp and vig shit. Or upgrade...or train...or whatever.

havingfitz · Post Post #1132 (isolation #8) » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:33 am

In post 1131, gerryoat wrote:wtf why was jae banned?

Go to the banned players thread.

havingfitz · Post Post #1149 (isolation #9) » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:05 am

v/LA until Monday

havingfitz · Post Post #1188 (isolation #10) » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:36 am

Back from v/la. Dreal loses xp's. On to the the next day.

Maybe we can block quicker tomorrow and get to some vig'ing!?

havingfitz · Post Post #1222 (isolation #11) » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:38 am

dreal and srceen look to be town.
Not sure why yurkin was nk'd.
Good job whoever took out Ghostlin.

Block: Assembler

Just read yurkin pm....if he killed Ghostlin then mafia didn't get a kill off. Not enough points?

I'm aiming for low points.

VOTE: Maki
VOTE: Loyal

Pre-edit shitload of posts.

havingfitz · Post Post #1260 (isolation #12) » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:08 am

@Maki...when I replaced in D2 as I was catching up on the game you were the one I suspected the most. I can't recall anything specifically. Maybe it was gut. Now it's gut and POE.

I doubt scum are going to target a team mate with a block since I believe their points are valuable to their night actions (as with everyone).

As I am towenreading most of the players on gerryoat I do not necessarily town read him for being the D1 Block. I think Ghostlin staying harmlessly on Maki much of D1 is incriminating to her along with his move to yurkin (who had been at L-2 for almost 8 pages) instead of gerryoat who had gome from L-6 to L-2 in the same timeframe.

I think Srceenplay is probably town due to the preponderance of players voting to block him D2 (though betwen Maki and gerry only Maki voted to block Srceen).

Same thing for dreal who Ghostlin was keen to block (and both Maki and gerry were blocking as well).

I can't see why scum would have nk'd yurkin and the fact the scum lost a member...combined with yurkin's upgraded ability...seems to coincidental to not think yurkin targetted Ghostlin and died for it. Which IMO means scum didn't kill.

If scum didn't kill it's either because someone made some sort of block or protective action that impacted their kill or they just didn't have enough points and were banking points to be able to kill sh;t the next night.

So if scum is low on points I'm going to target low points for my lynch vote. I.e. Maki.

I also don't like the warnings from Maki to avoid night actions on her.

@Maki...

when did performing a night action on your become a no no? Last night or the night before (the same night I think you upgraded)?

What would happen if scum tried to do anything to you at night?

Also....

Block: gerryoat

havingfitz · Post Post #1261 (isolation #13) » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:10 am

mod...does the day end on 5 blocks or 5 lynch votes?

havingfitz · Post Post #1266 (isolation #14) » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:17 am

In post 1265, gerryoat wrote:
In post 1264, Srceenplay wrote:What is it that you think was a consensus?
everyone was saying not to block me cause it was confirmed that i couldnt make a kill that night.

How does this matter?

havingfitz · Post Post #1274 (isolation #15) » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:22 am

In post 1267, gerryoat wrote:can't you read

I'm on my phone and occasionally miss shit. No need to be a wise ass.

P.edit........

Looks bad for assembler. Will digest later.

Till then...

Unblock and Unvote

havingfitz · Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:03 am

In post 1302, Maki Harukawa wrote:
In post 1260, havingfitz wrote:@Maki...when did performing a night action on your become a no no?
The night I upgraded and if scum tried to target me well...they can target me and find out

I targeted you the night you upgraded. Why did nothing bad happen to me?

I'm off to the gym for a few hours. I plan on voting assembler as his response/explanation to mastina's claim looks bullshit.

havingfitz · Post Post #1330 (isolation #17) » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:25 pm

In post 1205, Maki Harukawa wrote:DO NOT TARGET ME WITH ANYTHING IT WILL END BADLY FOR YOU

In post 1307, Maki Harukawa wrote:Pedit 2: It depends on the action you took although If I had to guess it wasn't an action that would affect you. targetting me is 100% useless because I resolve myself

If I didn't think Assembler was scum with extremely elaborate excuses I'd vote you.

I'll vote Assembler at some point in the next day or two I guess to promote more chat but your (Maki's) upgrade doesn't seem legit either....on top of other suspicions I have voiced.

havingfitz · Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:54 am

In post 1331, drealmerz7 wrote:maki is town pretty sure

Why?

Assuming Assembler is scum...who is their partner?

havingfitz · Post Post #1344 (isolation #19) » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:10 am

In post 1343, Maki Harukawa wrote:Certain actions don't work on me.
I should be able to clear myself in about 2 days if all goes right.

So "don't work on me" =

"IT WILL END BADLY FOR YOU?"

And how convenient that you only need two more days to be cleared. coughcoughbullshit

havingfitz · Post Post #1346 (isolation #20) » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:42 am

I don't want to lynch you today.

havingfitz · Post Post #1348 (isolation #21) » Thu Nov 09, 2017 6:48 am

Why haven't you (Mari) asked how I targetted you?

P.edit....interesting? My intent to vote Assembler over anyone else (including you) is interesting how?

havingfitz · Post Post #1350 (isolation #22) » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:19 am

In post 1349, Maki Harukawa wrote:We can outright clear asse I don't think you should be voting him.

How can he be cleared? Rolecopping him? Does the mastina block mean that little to you? You're trying quite hard to save asse's ass.

In post 1349, Maki Harukawa wrote: and I don't care for you targetted me because I was vanilla the night you did it and you didn't mess with my upgrade so I care very little.

You said it took effect the same night you upgraded....

In post 1302, Maki Harukawa wrote:
In post 1260, havingfitz wrote:@Maki...when did performing a night action on your become a no no?
The night I upgraded and if scum tried to target me well...they can target me and find out

havingfitz · Post Post #1353 (isolation #23) » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:53 am

In post 1351, Maki Harukawa wrote:Do you think mafia have a doctor?

Why was there no 3rd death last night?
A Doc claim can't be confirmed because rolecop only reveals base roles...not upgrades. Assemblers' claim is a crock of shit you seem determined to save.

In post 1351, Maki Harukawa wrote:For the 2nd part I plea the 5th.

Convenient.

havingfitz · Post Post #1355 (isolation #24) » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:22 am

He's saying his base role was morphed by his upgrade to a doc. Upgrades are not revealable by mod's definition. And each player has a predetermined upgrade. If the upgrade modifies base role why make rule that only base role is revealable? And if Assembler's base role no longer exists...who knows what it would return now.

Was your upgrade a modification of your base role?

havingfitz · Post Post #1364 (isolation #25) » Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:56 pm

VOTE: Assembler

havingfitz · Post Post #1439 (isolation #26) » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:41 am

Long weekend offline. Will catchup asap.

havingfitz · Post Post #1442 (isolation #27) » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:34 am

Maki...you rolecopped Assembler N3?

havingfitz · Post Post #1443 (isolation #28) » Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:37 am

In post 1279, mastina wrote:(Btw I'm pretty sure I don't want to claim this extra part but there's more to our role than just the blocking and that extra is something which makes me even MORE confident in the block-guilty.)

Can you discuss what made you even MORE confident Assembler was guilty?

havingfitz · Post Post #1445 (isolation #29) » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:35 am

If you knew (or at least strongly suspected) Assembler was town why start the day off voting them?

havingfitz · Post Post #1450 (isolation #30) » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:04 am

So mid-day D4 the mod gave you info leading you to believe Assembler was town. Why weren't you raising a shit fit to disperse the mislynch wagon?

I know from my catchup this morning that you were opposed, but it didn't seem as adamant as it could have been given your mod intel.

havingfitz · Post Post #1451 (isolation #31) » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:05 am

^ to Maki

havingfitz · Post Post #1455 (isolation #32) » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:12 am

In post 1449, Maki Harukawa wrote:I said I had mod related info that makes him town

At approximately what time/post D4 did your mod intel confim Assembler was town for you?

havingfitz · Post Post #1539 (isolation #33) » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:35 am

In post 1528, mastina wrote:given that I am in a leadership position of sorts

havingfitz · Post Post #1540 (isolation #34) » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:35 am

In post 1443, havingfitz wrote:
In post 1279, mastina wrote:(Btw I'm pretty sure I don't want to claim this extra part but there's more to our role than just the blocking and that extra is something which makes me even MORE confident in the block-guilty.)
Can you discuss what made you even MORE confident Assembler was guilty?

havingfitz · Post Post #1541 (isolation #35) » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:36 am

VOTE: Maki lal

havingfitz · Post Post #1543 (isolation #36) » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:56 am

In post 1467, Srceenplay wrote:
In post 1465, Maki Harukawa wrote:I lie a lot you're gonna have to be more specific
You asked for Assemblerotws lynch.
You said someone can role cop him.
You said he is confirmed.
You said he is mod confirmed.
You said I’m not explaining nothing.

That doesn’t add up.

^ this

havingfitz · Post Post #1575 (isolation #37) » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:38 am

In post 1555, gerryoat wrote:hopefully your daughter is feeling better soon.

^

havingfitz · Post Post #1577 (isolation #38) » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:46 am

I'm VT.
I rolecopped Maki N2 but amazingly it did not end badly for me.
The result was vanilla and nai.
I upgraded today but won't know what to until tonight.
I'm at 0 points.

havingfitz · Post Post #1578 (isolation #39) » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:47 am

In post 1540, havingfitz wrote:
In post 1443, havingfitz wrote:
In post 1279, mastina wrote:(Btw I'm pretty sure I don't want to claim this extra part but there's more to our role than just the blocking and that extra is something which makes me even MORE confident in the block-guilty.)
Can you discuss what made you even MORE confident Assembler was guilty?

havingfitz · Post Post #1641 (isolation #40) » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:27 am

So has everyone claimed but Maki? Where's her claim with actions?

havingfitz · Post Post #1664 (isolation #41) » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:54 am

@mastina...

I replaced in with 2xp on D2.
Rolecopped N2 (-1xp)
Trained N3 and N4 (+2xp).
Upgraded today (-3xp) and am now at zero.

And I anticipate not being able to use whatever upgrade I have if it requires points as I do not think we are typically able to train and perform actions in the same night.

So if anyone has the ability to share an XP I'd be happy to accept and use whatever my pending upgrade is.

@Maki...I hate when people say they are confirmed town when they aren't. Can you please explain more slowly how anything that has transpired in this game...or wrt your claim...makes you verified conftown? Because being upgraded to a macho neighbor ain't it. Mafia can be macho and/or a neighbor. Players have the ability to vig if you recall...the macho modifier could just prevent a doc from protecting scum!you from a Doc (mafia or town) protect. smh

And so your END BADLY FOR YOU exclamation for anyone targeting you was BS...yes? And the whole only certain actions blah bl;ah blah because you resolve yourself blah blah blah comments were all BS to...yes?

havingfitz · Post Post #1666 (isolation #42) » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:01 am

In post 1665, EeveeLution Army wrote:I love the reasoning behind me dying here. Town better win this TBH. Also Mastina i never said i was passive, my Pgo is still an active action

How is your PGO active?

havingfitz · Post Post #1669 (isolation #43) » Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:36 am

In post 1667, EeveeLution Army wrote:
In post 1666, havingfitz wrote:
In post 1665, EeveeLution Army wrote:I love the reasoning behind me dying here. Town better win this TBH. Also Mastina i never said i was passive, my Pgo is still an active action
How is your PGO active?
What do you mean...? I choose whether i arm myself or not

So your PGO ability itself is still passive. It only works if someone visits you (and you've taken the

action

to arm.it). So mastina's point, right or wrong, is still accurate.

havingfitz · Post Post #1672 (isolation #44) » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:17 am

In post 1671, EeveeLution Army wrote:I guess thats true but by that logic every roll is passive kek.

Ffs....some roles (not rolls) target players. PGO reacts to being targeted. Reacts. Passive. Doesn't target. Not active.

Ffs.

havingfitz · Post Post #1673 (isolation #45) » Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:23 am

In post 1670, gerryoat wrote:havigfitz whats your reads?

OTTOMH

Town leans - mastina, Srceen, dreal
Pool of suspects - Maki, Vax, Eevee, gerry

havingfitz · Post Post #1684 (isolation #46) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:22 am

Zzzzzz

I'm assuming no results of interest given the silence?

Surprised an autofarmer was the nk over a roleblocker and tracker.

VOTE: No lynch

havingfitz · Post Post #1687 (isolation #47) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:37 am

1) I don't trust anyone.
2) That's not your choice.

Considering you haven't got a lynch right yet today why should anyone gaf about whether you wanna vig? If you're such a threat why are you still here?

P.edit....how Srceen? There was a kill.

havingfitz · Post Post #1689 (isolation #48) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:21 am

In post 1688, Srceenplay wrote:How what?

In post 1686, Srceenplay wrote:Mastina reveals their block and it might help with Poe.

havingfitz · Post Post #1696 (isolation #49) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:50 am

In post 1695, Maki Harukawa wrote:I don't think d1 mastina/Jae does that as scum...ever

Does what?

havingfitz · Post Post #1697 (isolation #50) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:51 am

Srceen...did you track anyone?

havingfitz · Post Post #1738 (isolation #51) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:10 pm

Why the fcuk did you block me mastina?
Why are you still alive?
I wanted to see the track and/or block results before I said anything about my upgrade. My upgrade is I can target a player and if I'm aligned with that player and that player dies...their ability replaces mine. I.e. I get their ability.

I targeted mastina because roleblocker. As mastina didn't die...nothing happened.

I want to vote you mastina but I want to mull things over.

havingfitz · Post Post #1739 (isolation #52) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:15 pm

In post 1718, Srceenplay wrote:I loyal racked Mastina last night.

I just saw this tidbit.

Mulling done.

VOTE: mastina

havingfitz · Post Post #1790 (isolation #53) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:23 pm

In post 1784, mastina wrote:
In post 1771, Maki Harukawa wrote:mastina are we playing WWE or what
If by that, you mean this?
VOTE: havingfitz.
Then yes. I'm all for a turnaround this game in our favor. Turn the tables on the scum and get locktown from it.

So essentially Srceenplay is a counterclaim to you. If he is town and telling the truth then you are scum. If you are town then he is lying scum.

Is this not accurate?

Yet you vote me

lol

havingfitz · Post Post #1794 (isolation #54) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:36 pm

But here's the thing mastina...I'm not scum. I'm town. And your flailing against what is essentially a cc to you and ignoring that for any last straw you can grasp at to make it to tonight.

So yesterday you were all for Eevee and gerryoat as scum to end the day. Yet you skip past gerryoat (who you still suspect today) and decide to block the guy getting a new unknown upgrade. Worth risking a block on me than on the next most powerful PR in the game next to your claimed one (tracker).

No way scum leaves a roleblocker AND a tracker alive over a fcuking autofarmer. On that alone at least one of you or Srceen would be scum in my book. Srceen's result and your effort at me to start this day are all I need to push me your way tyvm.

And that was a pretty cool bus gerryoat.

havingfitz · Post Post #1797 (isolation #55) » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:55 pm

In post 1796, mastina wrote:The fact that scum left us both alive is proof we're town

havingfitz · Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:44 am

In post 1801, gerryoat wrote:its literally auto win lol. lynch mastina. shoot fitz. if game doesnt end, lynch vax.

No...fitz is town. If town can shoot they need to shoot elsewhere.

Someone can shoot you. You haven't done shit and have been under enough suspicions.

havingfitz · Post Post #1806 (isolation #57) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:39 am

In post 1805, Srceenplay wrote:
In post 1804, Vaxkiller wrote:Great, im in the vortex.
Is there anything you can do to help win?

He could vote mastina.

havingfitz · Post Post #1809 (isolation #58) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:02 am

Rereading a bit....

In post 1718, Srceenplay wrote:It felt like a value track. If she was killed I would know who do the kill.

Srceen...how would you tracking mastina have indicated who "to?" kill if hypothetical town!mastina had been the nk?

havingfitz · Post Post #1810 (isolation #59) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:04 am

In post 1807, Srceenplay wrote:You don’t think a redirection action is likely?

I try not to make the game more difficult than it is. Almost any situation/action can be explained if people are willing to consider it.

havingfitz · Post Post #1811 (isolation #60) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:20 am

In post 1743, mastina wrote:Screenplay has the same fucking "guilty" on my slot that I had on Fountain which later led to my moronic mislynch albeit indirectly.

Up to and including.

A town player
eating it up and voting, placing me near the lynch.

You mean this town player? lol....

havingfitz · Post Post #1812 (isolation #61) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:21 am

In post 1807, Srceenplay wrote:You don’t think a redirection action is likely?

Do you?

havingfitz · Post Post #1814 (isolation #62) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:55 am

What was that comment supposed to say?

havingfitz · Post Post #1817 (isolation #63) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:27 am

I'm good with those replies. Thanks.

havingfitz · Post Post #1819 (isolation #64) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:54 am

In post 1738, havingfitz wrote:My upgrade is I can target a player and if I'm aligned with that player and that player dies...their ability replaces mine. I.e. I get their ability.

I targeted mastina because roleblocker. As mastina didn't die...nothing happened.

havingfitz · Post Post #1821 (isolation #65) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:21 am

In post 1820, Srceenplay wrote:Ok.
So 100% at least one of fitz or Mastina is scum.

How do you come to this conclusion?

Because 100% if mastina is scum OR town...I'm town. It's not an either or situation.

havingfitz · Post Post #1823 (isolation #66) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:55 am

In post 1822, Srceenplay wrote:If your action didn’t kill Mastina you are different alignments or blocked.
If you were blocked then that means I wasn’t blocked according to Mastina. Which means Mastina is scum.

So that shows us for sure at least on of you are lying.

What are you tslking about? My action isn't a killing action. It's like a universal backup, as long as I guess who the nk is. I guessed mastina and was wrong so there was not resulting outcome fmpov.

havingfitz · Post Post #1827 (isolation #67) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:15 am

In post 1824, gerryoat wrote:
In post 1803, havingfitz wrote:
In post 1801, gerryoat wrote:its literally auto win lol. lynch mastina. shoot fitz. if game doesnt end, lynch vax.
No...fitz is town. If town can shoot they need to shoot elsewhere.

Someone can shoot you. You haven't done shit and have been under enough suspicions.
Are you seriously saying that im maf with mastina who has been trying to lynch me since day 1 lol

I'm saying you're a better vig target than me. As is everyone who's not me. And don't confirm town yourself just yet becsuse NSG supported a D1 block on you. Aside from a few minutes D2 they haven't voted you for block or lynch

since

D1.

havingfitz · Post Post #1830 (isolation #68) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:27 am

On what note? There is discussion going on. Were you contemplating a vote?

havingfitz · Post Post #1857 (isolation #69) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:41 pm

In post 1854, Srceenplay wrote:Lynch fitz

I'm fcuking town. Would people (town at least) stop including me in lynch or vig scenarios. ffs.

havingfitz · Post Post #1860 (isolation #70) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:22 pm

In post 1859, Maki Harukawa wrote:
In post 1851, Maki Harukawa wrote:fitz when did you upgrade btw and what was your base role

I upgraded last night. My base role was VT.

havingfitz · Post Post #1867 (isolation #71) » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:40 pm

In post 1861, Srceenplay wrote:Give us your list

First thing in the morning...zzzzzzzz

havingfitz · Post Post #1913 (isolation #72) » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:54 am

In post 1798, mastina wrote:If either of us were scum, we'd have motivation to kill the other, to appear town and to remove the greatest threat to us.
dreal being killed is proof that the scum were instead looking to set a situation up where the town would do their dirty work for them.

Catching up on last ~7 pages.
Pausing for thought.
UNVOTE: for the moment.

havingfitz · Post Post #1914 (isolation #73) » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:06 am

In post 1861, Srceenplay wrote:Give us your list

I'm town.
I tr Srceenplay
Idfk...the other 4 are a kluge for me. Want to lean town on Maki and gerry which by poe leaves mastina and Vax as scum.

But questioning the bottom 4.

@ mastina....are you mastin and/or mastin2?

havingfitz · Post Post #1916 (isolation #74) » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:17 am

In post 1897, Maki Harukawa wrote:Gerry is vt I rolecopped him

You realize he could be a mafia goon. I'm not ssying he is....I'm just saying he could be. Same as you from my N2 rolecop result on you.

havingfitz · Post Post #1918 (isolation #75) » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:03 am

^ Touchy...I'm just clarifying your gerry is vt statement. I'm not saying you said anything.

Why can you only be scum with gerry? Why are you "confirmed town" again? Cause if you are confirmed that would be great.

havingfitz · Post Post #1924 (isolation #76) » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:50 am

In post 1919, Maki Harukawa wrote:I'm not gonna repeat myself go read my iso or read back and you'll see why

So you can ask me when I upgraded and what my base role is...which you could have easily found...but you can't clarify how you're confirmed? Hypocrite much?

Better yet..does anyone else consider Maki confirmed town and if so...why?

And if my count is right we're 2 mastina (vax n gerry) and 1 on me (mastina).

I'm stepping back ftm and want to look things over. Ponder the redirect/bus possibilities. Entering Thanksgiving weekend it might be a few days.

havingfitz · Post Post #1926 (isolation #77) » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:02 am

havingfitz · Post Post #1971 (isolation #78) » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:22 am

Without any substantiation atm I'm starting to gut Maki Vax. Unsubstantiated and not reading today though because...

Happy Thanksgiving to any town or scum who are celebrating it.

v/LA until Monday the 27th (though I hope to get some posting in).

havingfitz · Post Post #1973 (isolation #79) » Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:12 am

In post 1972, Something_Smart wrote:No love for the mod though

Oh snap.

Happy Thanksgiving to you too mod!

havingfitz · Post Post #1979 (isolation #80) » Sat Nov 25, 2017 5:03 am

havingfitz · Post Post #1983 (isolation #81) » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:08 pm

Catching up on reading with a little spare Saturday night time....

In post 1944, mastina wrote:
In post 1914, havingfitz wrote:@ mastina....are you mastin and/or mastin2?
No shit, sherlock.

From this you'd be able to vouch for a fair amount of what I've said here RE: my own meta. How much I don't do the stuff which would be absolutely necessary for me to have done as scum.

But you won't vouch for it because it's not in your wincon to clear me from being scum.

No need to be an ass mastina. If you want to keep changing your username fine...it's not for me to assume it though. Simple question. Polite fucking answer please.

Other than you not being able to read me very well and posting long ass posts I do not recall any AI meta for you. I asked so that I could go peruse a few of the games we share.

@mastina...why would scum redirect your block on their nk'er?

havingfitz · Post Post #1985 (isolation #82) » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:18 pm

In post 1950, mastina wrote:
In post 1924, havingfitz wrote:Better yet..does anyone else consider Maki confirmed town and if so...why?
It's a long post so have a link: 1726.

OK...so nothing "confirming" Maki as town. Just giving a really long description of your feeling that she is town. Strong read doesn't equal confirmed imo. But thanks.

And as I am not that familiar with friendly neighbors I need to look into whether that is something AI or confirming in any way.

havingfitz · Post Post #1986 (isolation #83) » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:46 pm

In post 1985, havingfitz wrote:And as I am not that familiar with friendly neighbors I need to look into whether that is something AI or confirming in any way.

Annnd I've actually been in a game with a friendly neighbor. OK...so unless Maki is scum with gerry, looks like Maki is confirmed town. I think that's all the reading for me tonight.

havingfitz · Post Post #1988 (isolation #84) » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:57 am

Here's where I'm at atm.
mastina gets an a for effort and reading through the why they're town walls makes sense.
So town mastina.
My pr comprehension fail cleared up = town Maki.
I lean town in Srceen as it seems too complicated for scum to redirect a rb on one of their own.
Lean town on Srceen.

So poe...does a gerry Vax team work?

That's where I stand. Either of them works for me barring something more definitive.

havingfitz · Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:41 am

VOTE: Vaxkiller

havingfitz · Post Post #2006 (isolation #86) » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:04 am

In post 2005, Srceenplay wrote:VOTE: Fitz

WTF and why?

havingfitz · Post Post #2008 (isolation #87) » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:41 am

In post 2007, Srceenplay wrote:From your Poe you was left with only two to vote and it still seemed like it was tough to you to decide

If someone had a good reason why Vax gerry didn't work I'd be willing to at least consider it. Nothing tough...just being cautious.

havingfitz · Post Post #2010 (isolation #88) » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:14 am

In post 2009, gerryoat wrote:or, you know, we could lynch the confirmed maf aka mastina.

There's enough content being produced by mastina, much of it reasonable, to give pause to lynching them. Even if mastina is scum...who's their partner?

It's not me.

What are your thoughts on Vax?

havingfitz · Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:45 am

In post 2011, Maki Harukawa wrote:VOTE: fitz

I'm town Maki. Move your vote.

havingfitz · Post Post #2024 (isolation #90) » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:53 pm

Which points does mastina make in their defense that you disagree with? Her points don't sound plausible?

havingfitz · Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:43 am

In post 2035, gerryoat wrote:after this game, i hope that you guys never townread post walls just cause the person is a tryhard, especially when the person IS LITERALLY CONFIRMED MAFIA

gerry...is there a possibility that mastina is town?
Could mafia have the ability to affect town pr actions?

After getting my head partially out of my ass I believe Maki is town.
I think Srceen has been town and iirc his claim/actions have been believable/proven (?).
That leaves mastina you and Vax. I'm not scum. So from town your pov...Vax has to be scum with mastina.

So vote Vax svum and lets see how all the night actions pan out.

Maybe Vax flips mafia redirector and things can be better clarified tonight.

havingfitz · Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:51 am

Maki and Srceen....are you townreading mastina?

And if so...for the benefit of those still on the mastina fence...why?

havingfitz · Post Post #2041 (isolation #93) » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:02 am

In post 1781, Srceenplay wrote:
In post 1772, gerryoat wrote:wait so what happened n1?
I was RB

Were your messages back from the mod different the nights you weren't RB'd?

havingfitz · Post Post #2042 (isolation #94) » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:04 am

UNVOTE: for a bit as I finish my review.

havingfitz · Post Post #2058 (isolation #95) » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:32 am

In post 2055, Srceenplay wrote:Probably fitz but just because the lack of info from vax.

This hurts. I'm town.

havingfitz · Post Post #2059 (isolation #96) » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:39 am

In post 2049, gerryoat wrote:We lynch mastina. If she flips town, Maki can vig me.

If mastina flips town that would confirm a redirector and Maki's vig shot would belong to scum.

In post 2049, gerryoat wrote:If you lynch me, Mastina can just block Maki's vig and we lose.

Unless you're scum and mastina is town...which you leave open to possibility in this same post.

havingfitz · Post Post #2061 (isolation #97) » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:04 am

Closer look at mastina and what they have been saying:

Spoiler: Long arse post spoiler

I still want to do one more thing before I come to a conclusion on mastina and whether I believe the redirector theory...which will impact my interest in gerry and Vax. Will try to get to that asap. Work and family commitments tonight may delay that until tomorrow.

havingfitz · Post Post #2086 (isolation #98) » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:12 am

In post 2074, mastina wrote:
In post 2030, Something_Smart wrote:mastina (2)- gerryoat, Vaxkiller
Btw as if there were any doubt--literally any scumteam combo not involving one/both of gerry/Vaxkiller would have held a chance to hammer, thereby guaranteeing that AT LEAST one of gerry/Vax is scum, but that's pretty damn self-evident. I did think it worth mentioning tho.

^ this

havingfitz · Post Post #2087 (isolation #99) » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:28 am

OK...looking at all the scum combinations last night and what their possible actions would be...here are the 7 scum combos I considered (note..I did not consider myself because I know I'm not scum).

On why scum would have killed dreal....dreal's most recent list of suspects was Post 1415 and contained mastina, Eevee, vax and me. Not sure scum would have been concerned enough with dreal to nk him for this list. Especially over a tracker and RBer. I think he was considered the best bet given the fact scum COULDN'T kill Srceen and mastina (for whatever reason). I.e. dreal's nk wasn't because of him so much as it was the tbd inability to kill within Srceen and mastina.

WRT mastina...if mastina is not scum...then last night scum would have had the dilemma of potentially having their NKer blocked, and thereby being guiltied by a no kill. Town mastina would have to be accounted for. But based on mastina's claims...IF he is town then there IS a redirector. And if there is a redirector...why not just "redirect" mastina to someone other than scum (ex Srceen) and kill mastina as would be expected?

If Srceen isn't scum...scum would have had the dilemma of potentially having their NKer tracked, and thereby being guiltied by the track. Unless redirector was in play and impacted track vice the block.

gerry was consider in four pairings, Srceen, mastina and Vax considered in three...and Maki in one.

1.

Scum team w/redirector; gerry & Srceen:

Scum redirects mastina to some townie, kills mastina, claims fake track result and gets mislynch for the win. No concerns about a Maki vig N7 as scum would have the aforementioned redirect ability. This team is not likely.

2.

Scum team gerry & mastina:

Scum team blocks or kills Srceen...D6 mastina claims they blocked some townie for the mislynch. Blocks vig Maki and scum nk N7 for the win. Too easy...this team is not likely.

3.

Scum team w/redirector;gerry & Vax:

Scum have both the block AND track to worry about. They have a redirector. Redirect block on track. Shoot other than mastina and Srceen for wifom and general confusion. This team works.

4.

Scum team w/redirector; gerry & Maki:

Scum have both the block AND track to worry about. They have a redirector. Redirect block on track. Shoot other than mastina and Srceen for wifom and general confusion. This team works.

5.

Scum team mastina & Srceen:

Kill whoever thay want N6 (~confirmed town Maki would be a reasonable target) and implicate innocent townie D6 for the easy mislynch. This team is possible but current scenario would be unneccessary...this team is not likely imo.

6.

Scum team w/redirector; Vax & Srceen:

Scum redirects mastina to some townie, kills mastina, claims fake track result and gets mislynch for the win. No concerns about a Maki vig N7 as scum would have the aforementioned redirect ability. This team is not likely.

7.

Scum team Vax & mastina:

Scum team blocks or kills Srceen...D6 mastina claims they blocked some townie for the mislynch. Blocks vig Maki and scum nk N7 for the win. Too easy...this team is not likely.

In summary, taking last nights kill into account and the remaining existence of Srceen and mastina...the two scenarios I think with the greatest chance of existing are teams 3 and 4. gerry w/ Vax and gerry w/Maki.

If scum are any other grouping then these I think the unneccessary situation they have produced get's them the win they could have easily had anyway....so good for them.

VOTE: gerry

If he flips scum, Screen and mastina should be able to affect the remaining scum's action. If he flips town...fcuk.

havingfitz · Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:13 am

In post 2088, gerryoat wrote:So basically, you're saying I'm scum with either Vax or Maki? lol. First of all, Maki is clear 2nd of all, why does that auto make you want me and not Vax? I don't understand what makes the Vax teams unlikely.

Maki is confirmed town based solely on you cofirming her friendly status.
Vax could be scum with you but you work in both scenarios.

So I'm voting the surer thing.

havingfitz · Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:24 am

In post 2091, gerryoat wrote:man it's so obvious it's fitz and mastina, but i know it will be a NL if I stick to it cause it will be 3v3.

No...if it was me and mastina that wouldn't work imo for the same reasons mastina doesn't work with you or Vax.

havingfitz · Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:25 am

And it's not 3v3. Atm its 2 gerry...2 vax...and 1 mastina. With you not voting.

havingfitz · Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:26 am

In post 2092, Srceenplay wrote:Can someone make a role list?

?

havingfitz · Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:45 am

In post 2098, Srceenplay wrote:I mean we basically already have a block with our votes.
What does mafia have to balance that?

If mastina is town then scum has a redirector. Very powerful.

You have essentially confirmed mastina is a roleblocker. I don't see scum having that. If mastina was a scum roleblocker I think scum would have had a simpler route to a win then the current gamestate would have required.

havingfitz · Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:41 am

In post 2101, Srceenplay wrote:
In post 2099, havingfitz wrote:
In post 2098, Srceenplay wrote:I mean we basically already have a block with our votes.
What does mafia have to balance that?
If mastina is town then scum has a redirector. Very powerful.

You have essentially confirmed mastina is a roleblocker. I don't see scum having that. If mastina was a scum roleblocker I think scum would have had a simpler route to a win then the current gamestate would have required.
Do tell

For ex.

In post 2087, havingfitz wrote:5.
Scum team mastina & Srceen:
Kill whoever thay want N6 (~confirmed town Maki would be a reasonable target) and implicate innocent townie D6 for the easy mislynch. This team is possible but current scenario would be unneccessary...this team is not likely imo.

7.
Scum team Vax & mastina
: Scum team blocks or kills Srceen...D6 mastina claims they blocked some townie for the mislynch. Blocks vig Maki and scum nk N7 for the win. Too easy...this team is not likely.

havingfitz · Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:02 am

Why does scum RB not just kill tracker you and implicate an innocent townie today for the win?

havingfitz · Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:08 am

@Vax...

What about Maki and I who also suspect you?

What's your read on gerry?

havingfitz · Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:24 pm

In post 2112, Vaxkiller wrote:that fitz wont hammer

Won't hammer who? 1) I don't think anyone is at L-1 and 2) it would need to be someone I think is scum.

I've got no problem hammering a scumread.

havingfitz · Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:49 am

In post 2116, Srceenplay wrote:What’s the vc?

In post 2104, havingfitz wrote:Why does scum RB not just kill tracker you and implicate an innocent townie today for the win?

havingfitz · Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:42 am

In post 2121, Vaxkiller wrote:The fact you only care about screens answer to this is telling.

How is it telling?

He's the main reason mastina's RB claim is believable. He has more confirmef insight from his pov into what mastina is. So it's a more important question for him than others.

But feel free to answer it as well.

havingfitz · Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:45 am

I'm not scum and from my scum team post...you can see examples why mastina doesn't work with anyone. Killing you last night would have been perfectly acceptable and still left scum only needing a mislynch today for the win.

gerry works for me.
Less sure wrt Maki and Vax.

havingfitz · Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:47 am

Srceen?

In post 2120, havingfitz wrote:
In post 2104, havingfitz wrote:Why does scum RB not just kill tracker you and implicate an innocent townie today for the win?

havingfitz · Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:16 am

In post 2127, gerryoat wrote:Better question. Why does scum not just kill a RBer that can screw their kill.

Because they'd have to worry about the tracker.

Unless you think Srceen is scum.

Town mastina and town Srceen make sense in current situation. Scum Rb and town tracker makes no sense in current situation.

havingfitz · Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:50 pm

Im not off in the wings. I've explained my reads.

gerry and Maki or gerry and Vax.

havingfitz · Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:45 am

Ok...so if mastina is not scum as I'm leaning...my Maki gerry option doesn't work as Maki could have hammered for the win.

So that leaves me with the gerry Vax option.

I'll vote either. Vax wagon getting more interest than gerry soooo

VOTE: Vax

havingfitz · Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:47 am

Maki...look over my assessment of potential scum teams and tell me why you might disagree with the ones clearing mastina.

You too please Srceen.

havingfitz · Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:51 am

In post 2164, Srceenplay wrote:In the spirit of the game I will look tonight over a beer.
You are going to have to remind me in about 12 hours.

In the spirit of the game you should unvote mastina from L-1 if you're going to look over what you should have already looked over. smh....

havingfitz · Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:58 am

In post 2168, Vaxkiller wrote:
In post 2153, mastina wrote:Aside from the role result, for what reasons would I be scum?
Assuming I were scum, who would my scumbuddy be?
I really don't need to answer mastina questions, but in case anyone hasnt figured it out, im at L1.

___I KNOW___ everyone not on my wagon to be town because they arent insta voting me. Yet mastina pushes this bullshit "For waht reasons do you think im (mastina) is scum"

It's pretty fucking easy.

Fitz is your partner mastina, ive suspected it earlier, now I know.

1) you're L-2. Not L-1.
2) it is easy...I doubt mastina is scum for reasons provided and I sure as hell am not scum with them. A scum me and mastina team would = dead Srceen and fake result on you or gerry for the win in mylo.

havingfitz · Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:02 am

In post 2170, Srceenplay wrote:Sorry.
I forgot

Why are you messing around? If you are open to considering other's reasoning for mastina not being scum you should not be keeping them at L-1. If you aren't open to considering other's reasoning for mastina not being scum then don't imply you are. Ffs.

havingfitz · Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:03 am

In post 2172, Srceenplay wrote:What fake result?

That's a hypothetical situation. If I were scum with a scum rb.

havingfitz · Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:54 am

In post 2175, Srceenplay wrote:What possible fake result could there be?

Ah...nvm. wouldn't be able to if a kill on you (or anyone else ftm) had gone through.

Could have fake a block on someone to partially clear them though. Hypothetically speaking.

havingfitz · Fri Dec 01, 2017 6:57 am

In post 2176, Srceenplay wrote:or both scum are voting against me.

Well I'm town so there aren't two (and I doubt any) voting against you.

You should unvote if you are still working things out.

havingfitz · Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:15 pm

In post 2183, Maki Harukawa wrote:Was there anypoint in the game vax or gerry could've hammered mastina can someone quote it for me

iirc today is the first day mastina has come under serious suspicion and so far today....gerry and Vax have not had any hammer opportunities.

mastina is at L-1 right now so you are cleared of being scum (with gerry...and therefore at all) IMO.

havingfitz · Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:31 pm

In post 2181, Maki Harukawa wrote:I'm trying to figure out how mastina is not conf scum rn

In post 2087, havingfitz wrote: WRT mastina...if mastina is not scum...then last night scum would have had the dilemma of potentially having their NKer blocked, and thereby being guiltied by a no kill. Town mastina would have to be accounted for. But based on mastina's claims...IF he is town then there IS a redirector. And if there is a redirector...why not just "redirect" mastina to someone other than scum (ex Srceen) and kill mastina as would be expected?

2.
Scum team gerry & mastina:
Scum team blocks or kills Srceen...D6 mastina claims they blocked some townie for the mislynch. Blocks vig Maki and scum nk N7 for the win. Too easy...this team is not likely.

5.
Scum team mastina & Srceen:
Kill whoever thay want N6 (~confirmed town Maki would be a reasonable target) and implicate innocent townie D6 for the easy mislynch. This team is possible but current scenario would be unneccessary...this team is not likely imo.

7.
Scum team Vax & mastina:
Scum team blocks or kills Srceen...D6 mastina claims they blocked some townie for the mislynch. Blocks vig Maki and scum nk N7 for the win. Too easy...this team is not likely.

havingfitz · Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:34 pm

In post 2182, Maki Harukawa wrote:It'd have to be exactly vax gerry....hmmmm

In post 2087, havingfitz wrote:
gerry was consider in four pairings, Srceen, mastina and Vax considered in three...and Maki in one.

3.
Scum team w/redirector;gerry & Vax:
Scum have both the block AND track to worry about. They have a redirector. Redirect block on track. Shoot other than mastina and Srceen for wifom and general confusion. This team works.

In summary, taking last nights kill into account and the remaining existence of Srceen and mastina...the two scenarios I think with the greatest chance of existing are teams 3 and 4. gerry w/ Vax and gerry w/Maki.

If scum are any other grouping then these I think the unneccessary situation they have produced get's them the win they could have easily had anyway....so good for them.

And you have ruled out it being you and gerry by virtue of you not hammering mastina for the win right now.

havingfitz · Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:47 pm

And you are L-1 right now.

So if Maki goes back to voting Vax it's either in Srceen's hands to vote Vax (again) or for gerry to "bus"...

havingfitz · Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:48 pm

^ ah...so they did have a chance to hammer you for the span of 1 post....however many minutes that was.

havingfitz · Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:26 pm

In post 2214, gerryoat wrote:I guess me & Vax on a team could technically be on the table still.

No shit.

havingfitz · Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:34 pm

In post 2267, gerryoat wrote:regardless of this flip. MAKI PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, SHOOT MASTINA.

Even if Vax flips scum?

havingfitz · Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:39 pm

In post 2274, gerryoat wrote:
In post 2270, havingfitz wrote:
In post 2267, gerryoat wrote:regardless of this flip. MAKI PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, SHOOT MASTINA.
Even if Vax flips scum?
yes, unless you're saying you're scum? slip?

No slip...I'm trying to figure the rationale for vigging mastina if the player we have been trying to get lynched does in fact flip scum. It doesn't make sense (whereas vigging you would).

If Vax is town I will be done with this game and gladly welcome a vig tonight so I can unplug. But I am town. Truth.

havingfitz · Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:25 am

Well suck.

If I did not think Srceen had been blocked by mastina N5 I would not have wavered from wanting mastina lynched. I don't feel like going back through the game to see why...but iirc Srceen made comments that did seem to indicate he was most likely blocked. (i.e. getting the same results both nights he was claimed to have been blocked).

Maki...did you not have the option of vig'ing N6?

I'm surprised the gerry wagon didn't get more traction yesterday as I think most town thought he was scum.

mastina was at L-1 for much of yesterday so that was definitely a missed opportunity.

Question for scum...why NK drealm N5 instead of a tracker and not even block the tracker? One of the reasons I discounted mastina and gerry being a team was because I could not imagine them putting themselves in the situation of having been tracked and what I considered an unnecessary situation D5.

Scum blocking Vijareda the same night Vij tracked the killer was lucky as hell for scum but didn't wind up hurting town as there was no lynch D2 and Ghostlin died N3 anyway (thanks to a great play by yurkin).

Vij not getting a track off N2 sucked.

Srceen...you were obsessed with Maki...did you really need to track her 3 times? Awesome choice btw of loyal tracking mastina...sorry that didn't work out as it should have.

Congrats scum.

Awesome set up mod. As much as it sucked to not be able to lynch the first 2 days it was still very enjoyable. And once the lynches were available all the other upgrades and actions made it a very entertaining game. I would totally play in this set up again. Thanks for all the work you put in to it.

havingfitz · Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:23 am

In post 2290, Something_Smart wrote:You have upgraded your role and gained a new ability!
The first time you would be killed, you will instead survive

@mod...why didn't this apply to Vax's ltnch? That "killed" him.

@Maki...when you faked friendly with gerry why didn't that set off any alarms towards gerry? How would he know you were town? Why would he play along as town knowing you were lying to everyone?