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[Andresvmb]

Hey all. I’ll catch up on this later today. Good thing is I haven’t really missed all that much.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: DW

[Andresvmb]

I’m also looking forward to the *pew pew* from the most chaotic player in the game today.

[Andresvmb]

UglyDuck from a quick skim is probably Town that wagon is whack.

[Andresvmb]

No elimination is silly. @DW what are you doing? The point about perhaps the Vigilante not shooting with limited information is totally valid btw. In fact, I would be looking for Scum amongst the players not really contributing. What you want is to make yourself hard to read so the potential shot from the Vigilante is less likely to catch Scum.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: mozamis

Can you explain this vote to me?

[Andresvmb]

Yeah the Duck is Town. I would say {mozamis, fua} are probably decent places to start.

VOTE: mozamis

Let’s see where this goes.

[Andresvmb]

No elimination is silly. @DW what are you doing? The point about perhaps the Vigilante not shooting with limited information is totally valid btw. In fact, I would be looking for Scum amongst the players not really contributing. What you want is to make yourself hard to read so the potential shot from the Vigilante is less likely to catch Scum.

It was sarcasm

Now I'm on Kyo who hasn't done anything

Yeah I see you’re going for votes that in the later stages of the game won’t be incriminating. I mean I can’t think of a more useless vote than on a player that hasn’t even posted once. It’s not a vote on a lurker - it’s a vote on a player that hasn’t posted and has been prodded.

[Andresvmb]

JacksonVirgo is also probably Town in my mind. That one is early though.

[Andresvmb]

Fivehead

If you scumread me vote me

I don’t just yet. I’m just trying to get an actual vote out of you.

[Andresvmb]

You can’t just claim to have history with a player and therefore your vote, when they haven’t posted once, is justified. You’re basically implying that Kyouko flakes as Scum and therefore their non-presence is AI. But not only is that not how I remember it, but it could be driven by factors outside of the game, and you would have no idea. I’m not saying I do btw. I’m just suggesting that your vote is hard to scrutinize, and I think that’s a problem. If you think you have learned how to read Kyouko a bit better from Koba, you can make that argument after they actually post no?

[Andresvmb]

@DW what do you make of fua?

[Andresvmb]

I think koba not being here is AI yes

No opinion on Fua rn

No opinion? How about mozamis?

Do you have a sense as to why I’m singling out those two yet? Or no idea?

[Andresvmb]

Are we gonna have a repeat of the 236 conversation

Anyway, no clue why you're pushing them out but if I put in some effort I could probably figure it out

I’m trying to get you to engage with me because I know we can do some damage if we just align properly. So I want you to try and read my mind to see if we have some of the same views for the game. If we don’t then I’m going to have to detail my view and not really trust you and that would be a shame.

[Andresvmb]

So yeah, maybe put in some effort.

[Andresvmb]

I’m back tonight.

[Andresvmb]

Mozamis hasn’t posted again huh? They could be caught Scum.

[Andresvmb]

4.5 days since they posted

There was a case against them

We got some votes

Feels like people have a short attention span and want to go elsewhere

They haven’t been prodded though?

[Andresvmb]

Alice, Uglyduck, and Jackson are the only three that came in and posted without giving a vote

good spot. if we dont PL NM - which we really should - these three seema good place to start.

wow normally these large games are mental, this is really quiet.
fua prvisional town read for his good spot about people posting without voting.

and these posts without response from fua could be either TMI that Fua is town or a weak reason to plop a townread on a buddy
VOTE: Mozami

My perception was that mozamis looked to actively be trying to pocket a player without even really explaining their thought process, establishing any additional reads, or trying to engage. STD basically accurately described it much more succinctly than I am here.

[Andresvmb]

wow normally these large games are mental, this is really quiet.
fua prvisional town read for his good spot about people posting without voting.

Like this reasoning is also total garbage. Never in a million years would I throw out a TR on someone else because they made a factual statement about players putting votes down with no reasoning. Why not, you know, ask those players for their reasoning? Or try to understand if this is an appropriate way of approaching an early SR? I would argue it isn’t, but that’s just me.

[Andresvmb]

Nobody should publically CC. NM gets naturally resolved tonight. If he's true claiming then mafia deals with him. If he's fake claiming then the real Vig's bullet will be the CC.

Agree that if they are not Vig, then real vig should not CC.
However, the rest of it is not that simple.

I would normally say that vigilante should never counterclaim and just shoot them instead if possible, and I usually would not have an issue with an early likely-meme claim but in this specific setup, but with a mafia watcher and doctor that could very well be a play to get N_M shot and possibly healed to get the vigilante outted and kill them off early.

Not saying that's what I believe is happening, but it's one possible play that I do not want to have overlooked.

I don’t think you willingly offer this perspective as Scum so quickly. You might have been looking for Town cred, but I have a feeling Scum are more willing to agree with this once the logic has been laid out, only to leave open the possibility that the Vig plays suboptimally or no one else thinks of this. That’s why I threw you a TR. Now, since the setup is open, surely it’s more likely that Town would arrive at this conclusion, so there’s a chance a Scum player might just quickly offer it up. And that’s why I said it was an early read and nothing definitive. But I’m also trying to get a reaction.

[Andresvmb]

Fastforward slide 6
*click click*

I seem to mostly agree with Andres on things. I disagree on Ugly Duck though the opinion is shaky. fua being a traitor is something I can get behind for sure. contrary to popular opinion, i feel that mozamis is town. if anyone hammers anytime soon, they will get quite a furious Aaron on their hands tomorrow especially if mozamis is in fact an ally.

the end of slide 6 footage makes me question Dwlee. The thought process felts manufactured. It feels a bit like when you have an essay and it's not long enough so you add filler words and transitions. Take from that what you will.

*click*

You agree with me on most things except for the main Scum Read I’m expressing? I guess I would ask that you expand on that a bit.

[Andresvmb]

Idk how close deadline is but if you're already worrying about it then there isn't much I can do about being elimmed.

Slots that can die - Andres, std, three, iluv....I think fua might just be miselim bait but that's not solid.

Ugly, Alice, Aaron town. Jacksonvirgo has been ok as well. The rest are mehh.

This slot needs to get executed. Like now. Not sure why we’re giving this slot any room to operate.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah yeah they think I’m Scum since I SR’ed them first and got sheeped and now they’re on the verge and need to return the favor not to reveal too much information. Whatever let’s just execute it and move on.

[Andresvmb]

I’m displaying nuanced play but bad reasoning? Kill it with fire.

[Andresvmb]

Mozamis came in, indicated that they basically agreed with a random team of three based on bad reasoning, got voted up, and then exited the game. And now I’m getting suspicion thrown my way? Where is the bad reasoning that I displayed? Just a vague attack. It’s nonsense.

[Andresvmb]

Also if this flips Scum the rest of the Team is probably just like {Aaron, Kyouko} to be honest.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll be back tomorrow. Sorry guys. Has just been busy.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: JacksonVirgo

I’ll put my vote here for now. I do want to actually re-read in light of the fact that RCE was shot and flipped Town. I have been somewhat off thus far.

[Andresvmb]

I haven’t had enough time to play this game.

I’m the Vig. This is a hard CC. You can unvote me now.

We can either execute NotMafia and then you can let me shoot, or we can execute elsewhere and then I’ll shoot somewhere and then I’ll obviously get shot by the Scum and you guys can keep playing.

[Andresvmb]

And to whoever said that RCE was a bad shot - screw you. The guy was defending Kyouko by calling them aimless Scum and joined that wagon super late when it looked inevitable. Yeah I though about shooting JacksonVirgo but I read them as Town and their reaction here makes me think they’re Town still.

[Andresvmb]

^aimless Town*

[Andresvmb]

I’m going to shoot Aaron actually.

[Andresvmb]

Or maybe I’ll shoot AliceK. Or Ythan. I don’t know - we’ll see.

[Andresvmb]

And to whoever said that RCE was a bad shot - screw you. The guy was defending Kyouko by calling them aimless Scum and joined that wagon super late when it looked inevitable. Yeah I though about shooting JacksonVirgo but I read them as Town and their reaction here makes me think they’re Town still.

It was a bad shot sorry my guy

UNVOTE:

You would have shot Jackson who is Town so haha

[Andresvmb]

And shooting the other wagon isn’t a bad shot. It’s actually quite illuminating. I also needed to know how off I was.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, just give me enough time to read. I’ll provide some more detailed thoughts tomorrow. I just don’t have time tonight. But I definitely didn’t want to collect another vote and then get hammered by NotMafia.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: SaveTheDragons

[Andresvmb]

I’m reading. I just need a minute.

[Andresvmb]

Still, even if I was worried about N_M being watched I'd shoot there as scum has no way to block the vig directly so I'd still get a second shot and not die until N2 if seen on N1

I’m going to assume that NotMafia is Town for a bit. I would prefer if NotMafia actually contributed to this game some, but I think the Scum were looking to encourage that the shot be directed so they could determine who did it, and neutralize the Vig. And if the shot is targeting Town, even better as they don’t have to worry about having to protect one of their own and having them revealed as Scum.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: fua

I did have Andres as a tier above fua, but the reaction to kyouko where they needed to just blatantly throw shade at their slot once the heat pushed up against them is a failed vibe check.

I'm vibing here now. Andres a close second.

Okay hahaha I really should have shot here.

[Andresvmb]

Sorry @RCE, that post from Kyouko that indicates they would have consolidated on you if needed for deadline purposes - I should have caught that. I needed to be more focused instead of playing this from memory. I wouldn’t have shot you if I had read that more carefully.

I think Three is a decent execution here actually. STD maybe not as much.

VOTE: Three

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: JacksonVirgo

[Andresvmb]

Three votes Kyouko at an interesting time so I need to think about that (when the obvious Scum play would have been to push onto me and away from Kyouko given JV’s hard defending there).

Unfortunately I think JV needs to die this game one way or another. So if we don’t execute there I’ll shoot the slot. I think it’s a mistake to let it live until much later and it should clarify some things.

[Andresvmb]

Okay this is a hard lock. I will shoot JV. We can execute elsewhere, see what we find. I’m worried slightly about outing the Gunsmith but I have a hard time seeing how JV lives through the end of the game and we might as well shorten it somewhat. I am also worried about giving Scum too much of a pass in locking themselves onto the player that most obviously defended Scum. I will say though - it’s not that common that Scum defends their Partner so openly even if they’re a Scum PR.

[Andresvmb]

Oh, now I get it. This was all just to split the votes at the last minute. Haha wow, we should've just stuck with the wagon that was actually feasible to push through.

VOTE: RCEnigma

We have twenty hours left.

But then Three changes their mind and moves back onto Town.

[Andresvmb]

From the last few pages I think A50 is scum with Three. His vote on Kyo was basically "a confirmed Town is voting Kyouko so I will vote her as well".

Three's reaction around A50 wagon was also suspicious. Jumped on with "whatever" attitude to unvote few posts later. Looks like a clamsy way to distance himself. If that's the case it would lock RC, Jackson and Kyo as Town. Along with N_M(possibly) and fua.
VOTE: A50

Only to change their mind again.

Okay yeah I can see why DW shoots Alice.

@DW why don’t we do this. We can execute Alice and I can shoot JV. I doubt they both flip Town. If they do, then it’s like a restart, and you all can actually Scum hunt since I expect to get killed here. Even with my bad play thus far. Thoughts?

[Andresvmb]

And you can lead the Town forward without my shitty play getting in the way.

[Andresvmb]

So considering eod 1. I would say:
Dwlee, Three and Aaron are likely Town.
Dwlee was pushing Kyoko hard from the beginning.
Three could jump on A50 wagon but decided to go with Kyoko, even if all 3 were scum, he would likely go for A50 as Doctor is more valuable role than other two.
Same for Aaron, he could jump on any wagon but decided to go with Kyoko.

A50 even though was on Kyoko wagon, he kind of didn't have a choice. His defence wasn't really convincing especially self-vote was really sus, could be that he tried to be eliminated instead of Kyoko.
Duck wasn't active eod so he can be a scum who missed opportunity to protect scum buddy.

I think I will look at these people:
ILUVYTHAN, Ythan, Save The Dragons, Andresvmb
who missed opportunity to express opinion about A50 vs Kyoko. Expecially ILUVYTHAN and Ythan are doing completely nothing.

You know what’s fascinating here? That you don’t express a view on JacksonVirgo at all. That’s hilarious.

[Andresvmb]

JV thought process feels genuine. I think he gets a lot of hate for being cocky which is nai imo.

Except for this vague nonsense.

Okay, I mean, I will shoot JV. It’s a done deal. I’m amazed we didn’t just execute the slot and instead you guys allowed a wagon to build on me but whatever.

VOTE: AliceK

Sorry for screwing up the shot.

[Andresvmb]

Also if this flips Scum the rest of the Team is probably just like {Aaron, Kyouko} to be honest.

In light of the Kyo flip, do you think you could explain this, Andres? This post was in reference to RC, who flipped green, but I'd like to know why you think Aaron could be partnered with Kyo.

Aaron is probably Town just ignore that.

[Andresvmb]

My only specific read is just that if one of JacksonVirgo and Andres is scum, I would believe it is Andres. I can't explain this read too well but essentially what it feels like is that JacksonVirgo is not trying to appeal to other players in the game while Andres does feel like he is at least attempting to. I don't believe both are scum. If one of them is scum, it's Andres. If Andres isn't scum, both are town.

I understand that they defended ssbm yesterday but their attitude towards these pushes today doesn't come from scum. Scum doesn't dig their own grave by being this uncooperative. That just doesn't happen especially if they just lost an important pr on their team. Right now scum need to pocket town and whatever JacksonVirgo is doing isn't that.

Wait this is actually nonsense hahaha

[Andresvmb]

RCE TR’ed Alice so maybe I should listen to that.

VOTE: JacksonVirgo

Let’s just kill the player that really shouldn’t live until anywhere near Endgame and I’ll think more carefully about where I want to shoot. The most obvious choice given the last second vote on Scum after it had been actually executed is to shoot Alice (if we execute Jackson), but I’m trying to think if Aaron is actually trying to defend their Partner here. The only way to find out is by flipping Jackson.

[Andresvmb]

I don't really want JV to endgame though, so am fine killing him now

i don't either but Andres is more likely scum than JacksonVirgo. If Andres flips scum, I am willing to let JacksonVirgo endgame. If not, we still have a lot of eliminations left and it's only day two. There's nothing to worry about.

@DW this is garbage. Why did you fall for this?!

[Andresvmb]

This is my committed course of action:

If Jackson flips Town, I’ll shoot Alice.
If Jackson flips Scum, I’ll shoot Aaron.

[Andresvmb]

You guys can execute Jackson now.

[Andresvmb]

I expect the players I have highlighted for a potential shot to leave their dying wishes on the thread btw.

[Andresvmb]

@DW assume for a minute that JV flips Town. Where do you go?

You know, I am starting to get this feeling that JV is being dunked on hard because they so obviously defended flipped Scum. So it’s easy to get away with that push, and some players are going to look very good from potentially having doubted that JV is Scum if we’re wrong. I still think JV needs to die (frankly they’re never going to get NK’ed and one Scum is probably defending there while the other one is SR’ing there to avoid any association if this in fact flips Town).

Look at how AliceK and Aaron are interacting towards each other, and towards the JV wagon, and tell me if there isn’t anything there that doesn’t raise suspicions for you. Aaron thinks one Scum is on wagon, and the other is off wagon. Of course, if one is on wagon, it’s not them, but then who? And now they refuse to say who is even a TR or a SR. Alice TR’s Aaron and thinks JV is Scum, which obviously fits with how most other players are viewing the game. But they themselves were on A50 and avoided Kyouko until they were literally hammered - so how come they have so much difficulty empathizing with JV’s point of view?

[Andresvmb]

I've been caught up for a while but don't really know what to think. I'm legitimately worried that if I scum read another person, i'll end up accidentally revealing all of the town prs. I'm kind of interested in just having Andres choose two people to elim (the vote and vig)

This just feels to me like you’re trying to not rock the boat too much so I act at night, get killed, and the threat of my shot is removed from the game.

[Andresvmb]

Jackson has the bad fortune of having pushed two PRs and away from flipped Scum, so there’s literally no universe they last until Endgame. That’s obvious. I just want to make sure we think through scenarios were the Scum are taking advantage of the fact that JV is almost certain to die in this game only to redirect suspicion onto a town player if JV is Town and just has had really bad reads and luck. And to some extent, I hard pushed RCE who flipped Town. It’s not unreasonable to conclude that I could be Scum who was not interested in flipping my Scum buddy even though I harbored suspicions there (which is why I paired RCE with Kyouko).

[Andresvmb]

Aaron’s defense that they wouldn’t hard defend their buddy D1 (when arguing against me and how illogical it was that I was pairing them with RCE) - why is that very same logic not being used to defend JacksonVirgo here? Where I’m getting annoyed is this feeling that Aaron is expressing the view that JacksonVirgo is Town but is not going to bat for them because they can obviously see that JV is incredibly likely to be flipped.

[Andresvmb]

I don't really want JV to endgame though, so am fine killing him now

i don't either but Andres is more likely scum than JacksonVirgo. If Andres flips scum, I am willing to let JacksonVirgo endgame. If not, we still have a lot of eliminations left and it's only day two. There's nothing to worry about.

Like this is just soft nonsense from the player that so strongly felt I was Scum and was all over me when I was pairing them with RCE.

[Andresvmb]

Also if this flips Scum the rest of the Team is probably just like {Aaron, Kyouko} to be honest.

You think I defend my buddy without offering a reason here? I have plenty of choices if I want to save my buddy and constantly pushing a counter is a very good one. I have not offered a single reason to townread Mozamis and that is because I am not entirely sure why I find them towny. As scum, I know more and have the tools to play this off better regardless of if my buddy flips today. Bad associativea sink me fast and that isn't optimal play at all. I'm not sure why you would think scum would decide to take such a strange stance around their buddy's wagon.

I can't remember if ssbm defended Mozamis, but if they did, you are basically saying that scum are all hard defending a buddy that would've been a much better bus than save. If Mozamis is scum, they are a wonderful bus at this point but I just feel like it doesn't make sense for a scum slot to get wagoned that easily over what I consider nothing. Even now, I'm not sure what the case on the slot is.

This post just really bugs me.

[Andresvmb]

It’s part of the reason I think I should just shoot JV and we should let wagons actually develop around other players. Because that way we can actually gather more information.

[Andresvmb]

In my mind, JV is never living to Endgame and they need to get executed. So let me take that shot. Let’s try and sort through the remaining slots and not let this day basically go to waste on a foregone conclusion.

UNVOTE:

[Andresvmb]

I’m strongly TR’ing {UglyDuck, DW, A50} at this point in time.

[Andresvmb]

I actually think STD is Town based on their play today. And their reasoning yesterday for mozamis obviously vibed with mine even if we were wrong.

[Andresvmb]

I am slightly worried that STD is referencing out of game reasons for their lack of content, but I have a sinking feeling they wouldn’t be alluding to those reasons if they were Scum to avoid an execution here. It feels a bit dirty to me. But someone else can chime in here.

[Andresvmb]

I want to trust Three and I’ve seen this aggressive style in the past, but I do somewhat feel it’s contingent on what AliceK flips.

[Andresvmb]

So I’ll VOTE: AliceK and I’ll wait for content from a lot of you.

[Andresvmb]

@ILuvYthan, you need to find a way to account for the Duck’s vote on Kyouko before you’re going to convince me to vote there.

[Andresvmb]

And their reasoning today for looking at the wagon on RCE is actually solid. You can see why DW backed off immediately there.

[Andresvmb]

Vote Count 1.06

JacksonVirgo - 0
Almost50 - 4: JacksonVirgo, RCEnigma, Not_Mafia, AliceK
Aaron - 0:
Not_Mafia - 0
Dwlee99 - 0
AliceK - 0
ssbm_Kyouko - 4: Three, fua, Dwlee99, Almost50
fua - 1: UglyDuck
ILUVYTHAN - 0
Ythan - 0
Save The Dragons - 0
RCEnigma - 4: Save The Dragons, Andresvmb, Ythan, ILUVYTHAN
Three - 0
UglyDuck - 0
Andresvmb - 0
No Elim - 0

Not Voting - 2: Aaron, ssbm_Kyouko

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to Eliminate.

Day 1 Ends in (expired on 2021-11-16 12:15:00).

Mod Notes: This is supposed to be fun. Have fun!

I believe my vote should be on ssbm.

Also, UglyDuck has every reason to vote say RCE here and really push that wagon to the edge to save the Scum Doctor. Instead, they make a point of highlighting that their vote should be on Kyouko and don’t move it when it’s clear that it could really push Kyouko over the edge. I can’t ignore this when thinking of UglyDuck.

[Andresvmb]

If JacksonVirgo is Town, and Alice flips Scum, then IluvYthan and Aaron jump really high onto my list of suspects.

[Andresvmb]

So you think im scum if JacksonVirgo flips town and if they flip scum? Because you said that if they flipped scum, you would shoot me.

I’m starting to think it’s possible either way. But instead of being overly focused on what I’m going to do with my shot since I’ve already made clear I would shoot JV and I’m expecting another wagon to build (and I’m getting NK’ed here almost surely unless I’m really way off), why don’t you help actually solve the game?

[Andresvmb]

You’re not really standing in the way of a JacksonVirgo execution even though you think the slot is Town, you’re afraid to put any more reads out there since it’s now becoming very obvious that you’ve been pushing Town for a while in my slot, so why should I think you’re Town exactly? Because you voted for Kyouko on the same page they got executed? Outside of NM who was pushed by Scum and is in my opinion not that likely to have claimed Vig as Scum (but rather as VT), why should I trust any of those last few votes (like yours or Alice’s after hammer vote)?

[Andresvmb]

You’ve already stated that you think there’s one Scum on wagon. Okay, who? Because the only viable option I see from your perspective is to push for Three (which incidentally, ILuvYthan is also doing). Do you think Three is Scum? Or are you going to agree with ILuvYthan in that UglyDuck could also be Scum?

[Andresvmb]

From my perspective, JV needs to die, and AliceK needs to die. But I have a really strong feeling the game won’t end there. Okay, so say one of those two is Town (if they’re both Town that’s really a royal screw up). Where else should the Town look? I wouldn’t consider DW unless something dramatic happens, though I certainly want to see them effort. And I’m thinking UglyDuck’s vote is pivotal, and A50 was voted as an alternative in a rush as the Scum was getting executed (so more often than not they’re a Town counterwagon to Scum). I’ve explained my read on STD. So who does that leave? Well, one of the Ythan’s could be Scum (one is actually trying, the other one clearly is just coasting). Or it could be you, or maybe Three if you squint your eyes hard enough (I’m not seeing it). There’s just not that many choices. And Three’s point about Alice’s vote switch there pinged me super hard as well.

[Andresvmb]

I mean Ythan’s ISO is so devoid of content and has votes that are probably all just Town - I’m shocked no one is piling on more pressure there. It’s probably a slot to scrutinize further down the road.

[Andresvmb]

From my perspective, JV needs to die, and AliceK needs to die. But I have a really strong feeling the game won’t end there. Okay, so say one of those two is Town (if they’re both Town that’s really a royal screw up). Where else should the Town look? I wouldn’t consider DW unless something dramatic happens, though I certainly want to see them effort. And I’m thinking UglyDuck’s vote is pivotal, and A50 was voted as an alternative in a rush as the Scum was getting executed (so more often than not they’re a Town counterwagon to Scum). I’ve explained my read on STD. So who does that leave? Well, one of the Ythan’s could be Scum (one is actually trying, the other one clearly is just coasting). Or it could be you, or maybe Three if you squint your eyes hard enough (I’m not seeing it). There’s just not that many choices. And Three’s point about Alice’s vote switch there pinged me super hard as well.

Skum would of had to consolidate onto a wagon to protect SSBM. Why start the Almost wagon instead of just going for RC?

RCE seemed to be town telling at the end (again, apologies, a close read would have easily revealed this), and momentum seemed to no longer be against them. You can see it that there’s some slots that started clearly saying that RCE should no longer be executed. So there was probably a mad rush to find a more palatable alternative. The wagon on A50 built quickly and a lot of clearly Town players definitely followed. It could have gone through. But you’re right in that RCE might have been easier to push through in light of the fact that some of the votes there were quite static. But static votes don’t scream Scum to me funny enough. Votes that are moving to avoid the flipped Scum are.

[Andresvmb]

@DW assume for a minute that JV flips Town. Where do you go?

You know, I am starting to get this feeling that JV is being dunked on hard because they so obviously defended flipped Scum. So it’s easy to get away with that push, and some players are going to look very good from potentially having doubted that JV is Scum if we’re wrong. I still think JV needs to die (frankly they’re never going to get NK’ed and one Scum is probably defending there while the other one is SR’ing there to avoid any association if this in fact flips Town).

Look at how AliceK and Aaron are interacting towards each other, and towards the JV wagon, and tell me if there isn’t anything there that doesn’t raise suspicions for you. Aaron thinks one Scum is on wagon, and the other is off wagon. Of course, if one is on wagon, it’s not them, but then who? And now they refuse to say who is even a TR or a SR. Alice TR’s Aaron and thinks JV is Scum, which obviously fits with how most other players are viewing the game. But they themselves were on A50 and avoided Kyouko until they were literally hammered - so how come they have so much difficulty empathizing with JV’s point of view?

I was on A50 wagon, because for me RCE and Kyoko were much less likely to flip scum. I was wrong, so I will likely pay fo that. Happens, if I get shot for that so be it. But if JV flips scum, I don't think I should be shot. I haven't played scum yet (except for 4p micro), but I am not that stupid to risk protecting my scum buddy when my partner is already doing that.

You do realize this sounds somewhat silly right? If JV flips Scum, then you shouldn’t be shot? If you’re Town, then your argument should always be that you shouldn’t be shot regardless of JV’s alignment because it’s wrong. I understand what you’re hinting at - it’s likely that one of the pushers for A50 given Kyouko’s flip is most likely Scum, and you’ll probably have to flip at some point in the face of that (particularly if JV is Town). But what I would prefer to see from you is some stronger logic as to why JV is Scum, not a self-defense.

I also would like someone to tell me why Ythan is being allowed to play this way. Can someone else read that ISO and tell me what’s there to town read?

[Andresvmb]

You’re not really standing in the way of a JacksonVirgo execution even though you think the slot is Town, you’re afraid to put any more reads out there since it’s now becoming very obvious that you’ve been pushing Town for a while in my slot, so why should I think you’re Town exactly? Because you voted for Kyouko on the same page they got executed? Outside of NM who was pushed by Scum and is in my opinion not that likely to have claimed Vig as Scum (but rather as VT), why should I trust any of those last few votes (like yours or Alice’s after hammer vote)?

I don't care if you trust my vote or not. I thought you were scum and was the only person who actually strongly pushed against a JacksonVirgo elim. As shown by the scum doctor day 1 elimination, scum are not people who are guiding the discussion in this game otherwise that would not have happened. It is far more likely for scum to not comment and weakly defend their buddy here than jump out and face you head on like I did. I will not stop this wagon because I was certain they were town if you were scum. I have no strong opinion on them if you are town.

I hav pushed all town this game and I admit to it. However, I also have only had around 3-4 reads total this game. It's not that shocking that there is town in there.

I appreciate this response. It does make me feel a bit better about your slot. And I agree that more often than not the defending of Kyouko would have been done weakly or with a push elsewhere while ignoring Kyouko somewhat. It’s why I have some stronger suspicions of AliceK and think the slot should get executed. JacksonVirgo was way too strongly on people’s faces. But the pushes are also egregious and the flips just make it impossible for anyone to trust them. And there are some players that will hard defend their buddies. So there are exceptions. I just don’t know JV well enough to decipher it.

[Andresvmb]

Apologies for not posting much. Haven't got much time between work and getting the first dose of the vaccine today.

That sounds more like scum Jackson.

apologies for being absent just had my covid booster and i'm sick/really tired so i'll try to get to this when i can

Looks like I missed a lot of content. I will post my reads in next few hours.
I saw fua claimed JK. Slightly panicky claim, ngl.

From the last few pages I think A50 is scum with Three. His vote on Kyo was basically "a confirmed Town is voting Kyouko so I will vote her as well".

Three's reaction around A50 wagon was also suspicious. Jumped on with "whatever" attitude to unvote few posts later. Looks like a clamsy way to distance himself. If that's the case it would lock RC, Jackson and Kyo as Town. Along with N_M(possibly) and fua.
VOTE: A50

For the sake of a flip zzz VOTE: kyouko

Yeah, it is very unlikely that she flips scum. Why would you pursue this lim?

I think these posts in particular stand out to me as the tide markedly turns against Kyouko. It’s not nearly as strong as JV’s defense, but it’s also very clear that AliceK is trying to coax votes on A50 and away from Kyouko. AliceK also shades Three / JV here, so a Scum flip here probably makes JV a bad shot funny enough.

[Andresvmb]

We’re executing Alice. Depending on the flip, I will decide whether to shoot JV. It’s possible I don’t take a shot if AliceK flips Scum. If they flip Town, I will certainly shoot JV.

[Andresvmb]

If JV is Scum, then some of you need to rethink what to make of ILuvYthan. I want Ythan more properly scrutinized. And don’t forget that perhaps the Scum Doctor doesn’t get bussed, but the two remaining Scum are probably distancing hard since it’s their only chance at a victory.

[Andresvmb]

You should take a shot regardless of Alice flip. Only downside could be shooting gunsmith

Yeah I’m a bit worried about this. To be honest I’ve always thought of Vigs as negative utility.

[Andresvmb]

And I’m not prone to errors as we have already seen. I’ll do my best with my next shot and read more carefully.

Needless to say, NotMafia can’t make Endgame either even if I really don’t think Scum would outright claim Vig in this setup.

[Andresvmb]

And I’m not prone to errors as we have already seen. I’ll do my best with my next shot and read more carefully.

Needless to say, NotMafia can’t make Endgame either even if I really don’t think Scum would outright claim Vig in this setup.

Not not prone* I was trying to say I can make mistakes.

[Andresvmb]

I will shoot fine. I’ll just give it some more thought. I do want the information of the flip. If Alice is Town, I’m shooting JV always. If Alice is Scum, I need to read through the game again.

[Andresvmb]

Aaron just hit it. I’ll read and make a proper decision on the shot afterwards. My decision if Alice flips Town is set in stone. If Alice flips Scum I need to read through the day.

[Andresvmb]

I’ve already given what I have. I want a flip and that information.

[Andresvmb]

It’s fascinating that I am smarter than the Mafia yet I couldn’t figure out who the Scum was.

I shot JV. That PR Claim was obvious nonsense. It’s the greatest thing JV has done all game. I am also amazed my instincts there were good, even if I went back on it later.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: UglyDuck

[Andresvmb]

Three’s analysis is basically spot on - the Scum weren’t afraid of getting shot and were hunting for the Gunsmith. We already have a few solid clears, and NotMafia too. I have to say, claiming Vigilante as the Gunsmith was a tactic I never would have seen coming.

[Andresvmb]

I also think STD is never Scum here btw. But maybe Alice was trying to hard distance (though I kind of doubt it).

[Andresvmb]

It’s fascinating that I am smarter than the Mafia yet I couldn’t figure out who the Scum was.

I shot JV. That PR Claim was obvious nonsense. It’s the greatest thing JV has done all game. I am also amazed my instincts there were good, even if I went back on it later.

Meh - they knew they would be run up tomorrow and the claim keeps you alive. Matters not but not sure how you misread that one.

This is a Scum reaction btw. UglyDuck seems irritated they couldn’t figure out the Claim was nonsense but I did, and wasted a very valuable NK. Now that the information from the Gunsmith is out, they’re absolutely cornered.

[Andresvmb]

ILuvYthan is the other obvious candidate. If the Duck flips Town, I’m shooting there.

[Andresvmb]

ILuvYthan’s reasoning for TR’ing Ythan screams of TMI to me, so that slot also can get executed. And they had JV as the most likely Scum, which we now know was incorrect.

[Andresvmb]

The biggest giveaway there is probably the placement of the Scum in the game in that readslist they produced. They even wrote how Alice’s time bothered the hell out of them, but they still put them as Lean Town. Ridiculous.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: ILuvYthan

This is probably better. Let’s do this first, I’ll shoot the Duck if the game doesn’t end.

[Andresvmb]

The biggest giveaway there is probably the placement of the Scum in the game in that readslist they produced. They even wrote how Alice’s time bothered the hell out of them, but they still put them as Lean Town. Ridiculous.

Alice’s tone*

[Andresvmb]

We crushed. GG Town. Sweeps are always good.

I also don’t think Kyouko claiming Gunsmith makes that much of a difference. I still think the Scum would have lost decisively here. The Town just solved correctly.