Mafia 90-Lolwat? Mafia, Game Over, Mafia Win

[StrangerCoug]

I hereby understand and confirm my role.

[StrangerCoug]

but lurking takes such a long time, and i hate waiting

You hate waiting? Obvscum.

Vote: roflcopter

[StrangerCoug]

We have a lenient moderator xD

[StrangerCoug]

Well. We could catch people by the way they word things. _{...though scum could just copy the vanilla role off the front page.....}

True on both counts.

[StrangerCoug]

That's really not true; especally in a large game like this, a small early bandwagon is unlikely to go to a lynch, it gives the town something to talk about, and gets the game going. Frankly, the chances of a random early speedlynch without the guy even getting a chance to claim in a game like this are close enough to zero so as to not even be worth worrying about.

So you think Bandwagonning in a game like this is okay?

Dude. There are times when bandwagoning is perfectly acceptable. Granted, wagoning for the sake of wagoning is scummy, but if everybody went off on their own tangents and never came to a consensus, the game would make no progress.

Unvote: roflcopter
Serious vote: MafiaSSK

[StrangerCoug]

I tend to ignore most of what roflcop has to say because it always comes out scummy...

He is not the only person here with that meta.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: You misspelled Penguins of the Serengeti's name.

[StrangerCoug]

That's really not true; especally in a large game like this, a small early bandwagon is unlikely to go to a lynch, it gives the town something to talk about, and gets the game going. Frankly, the chances of a random early speedlynch without the guy even getting a chance to claim in a game like this are close enough to zero so as to not even be worth worrying about.

So you think Bandwagonning in a game like this is okay?

Dude. There are times when bandwagoning is perfectly acceptable. Granted, wagoning for the sake of wagoning is scummy, but if everybody went off on their own tangents and never came to a consensus, the game would make no progress.

Unvote: roflcopter
Serious vote: MafiaSSK

I thought this wagoning for the sake of wagoning...

I am not wagoning for the sake of wagoning; I am attacking your views on wagoning.

[StrangerCoug]

I am not wagoning for the sake of wagoning; I am attacking your views on wagoning.

I agree that his views on wagoning are wrong. Do you think it's a scummy mistake for him to make?

It's anti-discussion, so yes.

[StrangerCoug]

I think anti-discussion is only a scummy mistake if it's intentional.

Mistakes are rarely intentionally made.

[StrangerCoug]

Vote: Strangercoug

for misunderstanding MafiaSSK's statement in a way that I don't think is even possible.

Misunderstanding a statement ≠ scummy. MafiaSSK said that bandwagoning is bad in that it will run somebody up to being lynched. Well,

DUH!

Somebody, preferably scum, has to swing! If I'm unaware of just plain wagoning and bandwagoning being distinct, then by all means bring that up and straighten that out for me, but misunderstandings are not valid reasons for a vote, whether or not I'm guilty of one.

Rofl, are you FoSing me for the quote wall? If so, why me and not the two people after me? If not, why FoS me without giving a reason?

not for the quote wall, that would be infantile. and i'd like to see if anyone else sees what i see before giving reasons.

Let me guess—I just talked about it in this post?

[StrangerCoug]

B)

crywolf, stop lurking

Shut up.

C)

I think anti-discussion is only a scummy mistake if it's intentional.

Scum tell would work in this sentence, instead of mistake. But anti-discussion is anti-town.

Aren't you being anti-discussion and thus anti-town yourself by telling roflcopter to shut up?

FoS: crywolf20084

[StrangerCoug]

There's really no reason to FoS him.

It read to me as cywolf20084 contradicting

HER

self, which is why.

[StrangerCoug]

Actually, Yosarian, it makes perfect sense. Scum will sometimes "misunderstand" something so that they can push a vote without a good reason. It's a safe lie, because when it's pointed out they can just say "that was just a misunderstanding" and remove their vote. That was my initial idea, Coug, that you couldn't possible have misunderstood that, so it had to be a lie.

While your explanation makes sense, there's one problem with it—you said I misunderstood the statement before I even talked about the possibility. And the only way I see myself as guilty of misunderstanding MafiaSSK is if I'm lumping "wagoning" and "bandwagoning" together when they're distinct, which I don't know them to be.

[StrangerCoug]

SC: I think the stratagy suggested by mafiaSSK is anti-town and scummy, vote ssk

I already am.

[StrangerCoug]

OH MY GOD! Coug, please read more carefully.

I'm trying. (In fact, I went back and made sure that I was already voting MafiaSSK before I did so.)

Bleh, too many BS overreacting arguments. They're fucking jokes. People need to listen to roflcopta cause he is deadly accurate in scumhunting.

Something's weird here. I don't know whether to call this appealing to fear or sucking up to roflcopter, but whatever it is, it doesn't look right.

FoS: alvinz95

[StrangerCoug]

Actually, Yosarian, it makes perfect sense. Scum will sometimes "misunderstand" something so that they can push a vote without a good reason.

I'm saying it dosn't make any sense in this context.

SC: I think the stratagy suggested by mafiaSSK is anti-town and scummy, vote ssk

Emp: You must be scum pretending to misunderstand ssk's comment!

Uh...what? SSK's comment was wrong stratigically, and arguably anti-town; I don't really think it's scummy, but Emp's attack on SC dosn't make any sense here. I know SC made some comment about how perhaps he misunderstood SSK or something, but I really don't think he did.

So you think SC was lying about misunderstanding SSK? Well me too. That's why I'm voting him.

He's attacking your attack on me, so for him to also yell at me for lying about misunderstanding MafiaSSK, which GnKoichi has talked much more about than I did, would be playing both sides of the fence.

Also, note the word "perhaps" in his statement. Yes, he goes on to say he doesn't think I misunderstood his statement. I can only interpret myself as misunderstanding MafiaSSK if there is a difference between wagoning and bandwagoning, so if there isn't, that would put me at the same stance of the issue as Yosarian2.

Once again, misunderstanding a statement ≠ scummy. I also see no evidence suggesting that I lied about doing so, and what little evidence there is that I misunderstood MafiaSSK in the first place, I have mentioned several times, including this post.

[StrangerCoug]

Also, through King's quote of Yosarian, and Coug's continued lack of ability to understand anything that's going on, I finally caught on to the flaw in that quote. So, Yos & Coug: King was pointing out that Yos's series of paraphrases are incorrect. A better summary would have been:

SSK: I'm going to vote for Litral because he's admitted to wagoning. Wagoning is bad.

Coug: Sometimes a wagon is good, unless it's for no reason. Vote SSK.

SSK: I think Litral was wagoning for no reason.

Coug: I AM NOT WAGONING FOR NO REASON! I'M ATTACKING YOU FOR YOUR VIEWS ON WAGONING!

That last statement is almost a direct quote. It is Coug's original misunderstanding, and it's unbelievablity is the reason for both Mine & King's votes. That's why King said that if Yos doesn't believe it was an actual misunderstanding, he should actually agree with us, as that's what lead to the votes.

Though MafiaSSK addresses Litral about wagoning, it's not explicitly in the quote wall, so that would be a legitimate misunderstanding. That does not validate MafiaSSK's views on wagoning, however.

[StrangerCoug]

Something's weird here. I don't know whether to call this appealing to fear or sucking up to roflcopter, but whatever it is, it doesn't look right.

= BS overreating argument thats on a JOKE. How ironic.

My sense of humor has never been that good, OK?

[StrangerCoug]

I think anti-discussion is only a scummy mistake if it's intentional.

Mistakes are rarely intentionally made.

People can certainly do things intentionally that later turn out to be mistakes.

That is very true.

So you think that SC understood SSK.
AND
You think SC was not lying when he said he misunderstood?

Unvote: MafiaSSK

and

vote: Empking's Alt

for strawmanning Yosarian2. I have said over and over again, and Yosarian2 has acknowledged, that I only believed myself to have misunderstood MafiaSSK if "bandwagoning" and "wagoning" are taken to be clearly distinct. It's clear that he believes there to be no difference between the two terms either and that I therefore understood MafiaSSK correctly. (I understand that the question now is to whom MafiaSSK was talking.)

[StrangerCoug]

How is it a strawman.

This:

I know SC made some comment about how perhaps he misunderstood SSK or something, but I really don't think he did.

I had already explicitly given a condition (that wagoning and bandwagonning are not the same) where, if applicable, would mean that I misunderstood MafiaSSK. Here he references that condition and then proceeds to deny its application. Remember that Litral was not yet brought up at this point.

So you think that SC understood SSK.
AND
You think SC was not lying when he said he misunderstood?

This reads as you presenting Yosarian2 as having contradicted himself, which I don't see. Yes, I now see where I misunderstood, but the misunderstanding involves Litral, who has little to do with what you're talking about. I

STILL

don't know the difference between wagoning and bandwagoning (assuming a difference exists in the first place), which is a prerequisite to your attack against Yosarian2 making an ounce of sense to me.

I just said that I thought SC was, in fact, entierly correct in his understanding of SSK,

How can this be read any other way than that Y2 thinks you were entierly correct in your understanding of SSK?

It can't That's part of my strawman argument.

[StrangerCoug]

Your stawman argument is that I'm saying what Yos2 meant instead of strawmanning?

What the two of you are saying are not the same. You present me as having then said that I indeed misunderstood MafiaSSK; Yosarian2 is denying that I did so.

Here's what happened:

#88: GnKoichi votes me for "misunderstanding MafiaSSK's statement in a way that I don't think is even possible."
#98: I bring up where I think I

COULD

have misunderstood MafiaSSK; in fact, I offer that the town set the record straight for me if I have indeed misunderstood him in the way I bring up. Nonetheless, I deny the validity of voting someone for misunderstanding a statement.
#99: You vote me for misunderstanding on purpose.
#105: Yosarian2 votes you for not making sense at #105.
#106: GnKoichi unvotes me, but still believes me to be lying as scum can easily say that they misunderstood something to cover up scummy actions. He therefore believes that you are, indeed, making sense at #105.
#116: GnKoichi tells me what exactly I misunderstood—that MafiaSSK was attacking Litral, not me, for "bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning" (to use my actual words); therefore, my attack against MafiaSSK was unjustified.
#124: You think Yosarian2 thinks I am lying about the misunderstanding.
#125: I say that for Yosarian2 to believe that I have both misunderstood and lied would be playing both sides of the fence. I fail to acknowledge #116, still thinking that wagoning vs. bandwagoning is the source of the supposed misunderstanding.
#126: GnKoichi tells me that he already said in #116 that "wagoning vs. bandwagoning" has nothing to do with what I'm being accused of and tells me to read said post.
#128: GnKoichi explains what exactly MafiaSSK and I said.
#132: I finally acknowledge that the misunderstanding GnKoichi is accusing me of is legitimate.
#136: Yosarian2 believes my (original) understanding of MafiaSSK. Once again, he denies that I misunderstood him.
#137: GnKoichi tells Yosarian2 to respond directly to #128.
#138: Yosarian2 finds out that he's guilty of the same misunderstanding that I was. He still thinks your vote on me is scummy.
#143: You ask Yosarian2 if he believes both that I understood correctly and that I wasn't lying when I said I misunderstood.
#144: I vote you for strawmanning Yosarian2.
#145: You question my vote.
#146: I explain Yosarian2's stance on me, keeping in mind that, at the time, neither of us were aware that the misunderstanding had to do with Litral.

Basically, your attack is invalid because part of it violates chronological order of events. The post I'm looking at the most is #128 because that's what made us realize what went wrong with my understanding. You are talking about stuff that happened before that.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Please prod Head_Honcho and Numberfourteen.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm going to drop a MASSIVE

HoS: Litral & Lowell

for trying to start a random wagon on a lurker instead of asking for a prod. There is no attempt to scum hunt here, and there is A LOT to analyze between myself, Coug, Yosarian, King, Rofl, and everyone else who's actually been participating. No one has any excuse for random voting like this.

Quoted for truth. I didn't mention roflcopter in my analysis because I felt his posts irrelevant to my argument, but I do know that you have a case on him, and his posts don't look very good (he looks hypocritical about IIoA, and I believe his accusation of you chainsaw defending MafiaSSK to be false).

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP due to crosspost:

Ah, I see SC already beat me to that point. Ok then.

I'm not worried about that.

[StrangerCoug]

First off, I want to know, is there a difference between wagoning and bandwagoning? I cannot imagine that there is, but I keep seeing it coming up.

As far as I am aware and what is supported by the conversation, no.

Also what is stawmanning, I have played several small games, and have never heard this term.

You strawman somebody by subtly misrepresenting what someone is saying and then attacking him or her based on your misrepresentation.

I am not sure what the big deal is with the misunderstanding. I could see it being a tell if it was consistantly happening, or if it was just rediculously obvious that the statement could not be understood the way it was. I just don't see either of these as the case right now.

I always have a real hard time forming any strong opinion on people day one, but right now the most suspicious person I can find would be roflcopter. He seems to make alot of posts with very little actual analysis, or input of any sort. Other than that, I jut do not see a whole lot right now. But I could be missing something big, because I am pretty much lost in the whole "misunderstanding" arguement

The misunderstanding occurred at #78, if it's of any help to you, but it requires reading what happened before that to make sense.

[StrangerCoug]

Numberfourteen, that opinion of roflcopter is not a weak opinion at all. It is the sort of thing we would like to hear.

Unfortunately for you, because of that, I'm going to keep my vote.

Major HoS: Litral

. Numberfourteen's opinion of roflcopter is not only pro-town but similar to mine.

[StrangerCoug]

Litral, please explain your last post as being anything but purely scummy? If a lurker suddenly makes a pro-town post, why would you attack him for it?

First of all, I never said it was pro-town, I said it was something we wanted to hear, and we want to hear scumtells, don't we? I also said it was a well thought-out opinion. The lurker should've made it a long, long time ago, not right after two people vote him for lurking. This means to me that Numberfourteen has been reading along and does have something to say, but refrained from saying it without pressure - which is a scumtell.

... please, this is the second time in this game someone has depicted me as some sort of jester.

Yet you never explained how Numberfourteen's opinion of roflcopter is scummy in the slightest. This is also a failure to take into account any issues Numberfourteen had. I would not like to leave a game abruptly because I broke my arm and had to go to the hospital, let alone come back a week later to find that I've been lynched as a result.

I also don't like your dismissing our accusations of you as us making you look like a jester. That's awfully cheap.

Unvote: Empking's Alt
Vote: Litral

[StrangerCoug]

StrangerCoug, GnKoichi said that I was attacking a pro-town post after saying that it was a pro-town post. That implies that I was being scummy consciously. Doesn't that make me look like a jester?

Acting scummy on purpose does not necessarily make a player a jester—it could also be legitimate scum trying to get bussed as a gambit of some sort. I don't see either, but #162 is heavily noted. As in on 10,000 pieces of paper.

[StrangerCoug]

StrangerCoug, GnKoichi said that I was attacking a pro-town post after saying that it was a pro-town post. That implies that I was being scummy consciously. Doesn't that make me look like a jester?

Acting scummy on purpose does not necessarily make a player a jester—it could also be legitimate scum trying to get bussed as a gambit of some sort. I don't see either, but #162 is heavily noted. As in on 10,000 pieces of paper.

Uh, if I were scum and that was a gambit, then most likely either you or GnKoichi is my scumbuddy.

That's partly why I don't see your post as a bussing gambit.

[StrangerCoug]

StrangerCoug, GnKoichi said that I was attacking a pro-town post after saying that it was a pro-town post. That implies that I was being scummy consciously. Doesn't that make me look like a jester?

Acting scummy on purpose does not necessarily make a player a jester—it could also be legitimate scum trying to get bussed as a gambit of some sort. I don't see either, but #162 is heavily noted. As in on 10,000 pieces of paper.

Uh, if I were scum and that was a gambit, then most likely either you or GnKoichi is my scumbuddy.

That's partly why I don't see your post as a bussing gambit.

Then why did you even say this:

Acting scummy on purpose does not necessarily make a player a jester—it could also be legitimate scum trying to get bussed as a gambit of some sort.

Since you're not actually offering an alternative?

To dismiss GnKoichi presenting you as a jester as a crap argument. I never said you had to be either a jester or attempting to get bussed, no questions asked—my alternative instead of you possibly being a jester was simply the first to come to mind. If you are town, then your post is very suggestive to me of a village idiot. It's obvscum regardless.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm saying that his

post

was scummy, but I have no idea whether the

opinion

contained inside the post is scummy. The opinion and the post itself are two different things. Why? Because his

post

, besides his

opinion

, also contains other information: an important one is the

situation

under which it was made. The situation is that two people voted him for lurking and he immediately comes out with an opinion that should have been expressed earlier if he was pro-town. This is the sort of thing scum more often do than town, which is why I kept the vote on him.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. As GnKoichi said, you and Lowell opted to vote a lurker in favor of asking the mod to prod him and analyzing the people actually posting content at the time. I rarely like lurker lynches as the mod will replace the lurker if it gets out of hand. Again, Numberfourteen could have had issues that prevented him from posting, and your failure to account for any that might exist is what drove me to vote you.

[StrangerCoug]

The whole thing looks...off. Not a "Scum gambit", exactally, like you claimed in your defense.

I believe I mentioned a scum gambit before Litral did, even though I didn't believe him to be committing one either.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: And you forgot to unvote Empking's Alt before voting Litral.

[StrangerCoug]

A Brief History of Litral:

Random vote on Empking, makes a joke about starting a bandwagon
Attacked by Honcho and SSK.
Makes a snarky comment about the previous vote
"anti-discussion is only a scummy mistake if it's intentional" followed by discussions of this comment
tyhess agrees with Litral
Litral attacks SC
Backs off SC, Vote-prod 14, seconded by Lowell
Attacked by dude-whose-name-I-can't-pronounce GnKoichi.
14 not redeemed by a pro-town post
Attacked again by GnKoichi and Penguins and SC, "Jester" comments
Attacked by Yosarian2

And now attacked by me.

I think jester is a very high likelihood for Litral, which is why I'm not voting him. His remarks read more to me of jester than blundering scum.

Why are you attacking Litral if you think he actually is a jester?

[StrangerCoug]

I'm also not liking #201.

FoS: Vino

for coming off here as not wanting Litral to talk about his refusal to unvote Numberfourteen.

The vote at #199 is the only thing keeping me from seeing a strong Litral/Vino connection, and I actually like the reasoning for the vote.

Mod: Just to make sure, please prod crywolf20084.

[StrangerCoug]

The vote at #199 is the only thing keeping me from seeing a strong Litral/Vino connection, and I actually like the reasoning for the vote.

don't let the desperate late distancing fool you

I won't.

Coug's on to the heart of it here. The original sin in this line of problems is your vote against a lurker when there had been no attempt to get him involved before hand. He got a little lost in the shuffle, which is understandable with the confusing arguments that were going on. When he DID get involved, you say it's bad timing. Would it have been LESS scummy for him to not respond at all and let himself get replaced? Once you voted for him, what WOULDN'T have been scummy in your eyes?

1) Actually, yes, it WOULD be less scummy if he did not respond and we discovered that he simply wasn't here (although I am of course not suggesting that one should do so); but all evidence points to him lurking while reading. He posted

three hours

after Lowell voted him - if that isn't suspicious timing, what is it?

Maybe three days, as three hours is not a lot of time on this site. Now, if you're playing meatworld Mafia or a ridiculously long IRC game...

Oh, and claiming to be lost is also a scumtell.

No it is not.

I'm saying that his

post

was scummy, but I have no idea whether the

opinion

contained inside the post is scummy. The opinion and the post itself are two different things. Why? Because his

post

, besides his

opinion

, also contains other information: an important one is the

situation

under which it was made. The situation is that two people voted him for lurking and he immediately comes out with an opinion that should have been expressed earlier if he was pro-town. This is the sort of thing scum more often do than town, which is why I kept the vote on him.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. As GnKoichi said, you and Lowell opted to vote a lurker in favor of asking the mod to prod him and analyzing the people actually posting content at the time. I rarely like lurker lynches as the mod will replace the lurker if it gets out of hand. Again, Numberfourteen could have had issues that prevented him from posting, and your failure to account for any that might exist is what drove me to vote you.

I see two arguments here against my vote for Numberfourteen, and my later comment that it should stay.

1) Lurker lynches are bad.

-- That is entirely debatable. Lurking itself is a scumtell. Even if replaced, the suspicion stays. I'm pretty sure a lot of people agree that voting lurkers make sense if no strong suspicions exist.

We should still not resort to lurker lynching on Day 1.

2) I did not take into consideration any issues that prevented Numberfourteen from posting.

-- What are the chances that Numberfourteen had issues that prevented him from posting, which were resolved exactly three hours after Lowell had posted - which, I might say, have once again appeared, since he's not posting any more? Extremely small.

OK, have you checked to see if he's posted elsewhere on this site? Is there a pattern as to what times he posts? To give some examples:

• Enough players on this site have less time over the weekend than during the week for some moderators (e.g. somestrangeflea) to count the weekend as one day in terms of when they issue prods.
  
• For a few months, I had less time on Tuesdays and Thursdays because I don't drive and I had to take buses to a college campus on the opposite side of town from where I live.

Okay, to anyone who's voting me, I'd like to ask you two questions.

1) Is a lurker who posts only under pressure suspicious?

Yes, but read Yosarian2's #184 regarding voting lurkers.

2) Is Numberfourteen a lurker who posts only under pressure?

I don't see much evidence for this. See above, though.

[StrangerCoug]

I believe the mason claim at #215 for now, and I also don't believe that everybody in the mason group Lowell speaks of is likely to be town given its claimed size.

[StrangerCoug]

This game is moving a lot faster than I am used to.

I'm also not liking #201.

FoS: Vino

for coming off here as not wanting Litral to talk about his refusal to unvote Numberfourteen.

What? When/how did I do that? What's it have to do with that quote?

Oops. Thought #200 was #201. That's what I get for posting on another forum where the topic starter is post #1 and not post #0.

Un-FoS: Vino

[StrangerCoug]

I have seen Litral act scummy as town, but if I recall correctly, not this scummy. While GnKoichi's statement is not your standard everyday declaration of confindence of scumminess, I don't think what the latter said is very scummy if at all. The defense at #236 is very understandable.

[StrangerCoug]

Why is it that every time I'm in a game with a mason group, somebody claims mason buddies? It's just sickening.

[StrangerCoug]

All pro-town thoughts about Yosarian2 have committed suicide, but I don't approve of Penguins of the Serengeti outing him either.

FoS

on them both until my sanity recovers.

[StrangerCoug]

I actually don't care who the masons are. Like I said it doesn't matter to me, half of them are scum anyways, and the scum already know or will know shortly who they are, so town might as well know too.

*barfs*

Unvote: Litral
Major HoS: Litral

as he is nowhere near off the hook

Vote: Vino

[StrangerCoug]

Uhh, Vino, you're still implying that you know who at least one of the scum in the mason group are.

[StrangerCoug]

Coug, I don't see where I implied anything like that. My understanding of the rules are lacking as there was no beginning night phase, so I am not sure if scum were allowed to talk before the game or no. If yes, and there is a scum in the masons, then all of the scum already know all of the masons. If no, then they will as soon as N1 begins. This means scum know or will soon know all of the masons. Isn't there no sense in keeping that info from the town if scum already know it?

In my game, the scum were allowed to talk before Day 1 started; this has also usually held for when I myself was scum.

We have four claimed masons: two directly, one outed, and one speculated on given connections. You said half the mason group was scum, so unless you can prove that there being more than one scum mason is merely an educated guess, I'm treating it as knowledge you know as scum yourself.

[StrangerCoug]

Is there anything important to read since the start of page 12 besides Penguins of the Serengeti, Vino, and Yosarian2 clawing at each other? You guys posted a lot since I last checked, and I can't comprehend what exactly is going on right now.

[StrangerCoug]

Right now I want to hurt Penguins of the Serengeti. Outing the entire mason group because you think some of them are scum trying to bus each other? Since when was that fair for the town-aligned masons?

Major HoS: Penguins of the Serengeti

. I agree that Litral's obvscum comments about the jester and all are being ignored, which is why I'm leaving my vote on him.

[StrangerCoug]

hmm

upon reconsideration, litral lynch and vino lynch are equally good in my mind

Right now I'm betting good money on at least two of those two players, Penguins of the Serengeti, and Yosarian2 being scum.

[StrangerCoug]

Somebody prove that #356 isn't WIFOM.

[StrangerCoug]

Somebody prove that #356 isn't WIFOM.

Calling everything WIFOM is a great scum tactic. Oh but even saying that calling WIFOM is especially useful to the scum, is WIFOM.

SC is climbing the ladder on my scumlist.

This is a lame excuse for a counterargument. I have not called

EVERYTHING

WIFOM; in fact, a Ctrl+F on my posts in isolation only reveals it once. Stop misrepresenting people by blowing things out of proportion.

Unvote: Vino
Vote: Penguins of the Serengeti

[StrangerCoug]

strangercoug is scum everybody

How so?

[StrangerCoug]

This has degenerated into name calling. In the spirit of scum hunting, I think everyone should do a one paragraph summary of why they are voting the way they are. This should include quotes which support your analysis. Avoid emotional arguments, as I think they are dragging down the game right now. A quick reread of the player will likely help. I'll be doing the same thing tomorrow if I get a chance (packing for a move). If you're town, this shouldn't be a problem for you.

Penguins of the Serengeti has outed the entire mason group for no good reason and says I'm calling everything WIFOM when I've only called one post such. That's reason enough.

[StrangerCoug]

FoS: roflcopter

for defending Penguins of the Serengeti (who needs to stop flailing) with

argumentum ad hominem

.

Happy birthday Vino!

[StrangerCoug]

I'm seeing a very strong link between roflcopter and Penguins of the Serengeti, and they both need to get real or die. If we have a vig and one of those people get lynched, I want him or her to target the other.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm seeing a very strong link between roflcopter and Penguins of the Serengeti, and they both need to get real or die. If we have a vig and one of those people get lynched, I want him or her to target the other.

megascumpost

*plugs ears and sings* Oh say, can you see by the dawn's early light...

[StrangerCoug]

If we have a vig and one of those people get lynched, I want him or her to target the other.

Directing other players, not cool. Nobody's mentioned a vig so far.

That's why I said "if we have a vig". While whether directing one is a good idea is open to debate, I don't think it's scummy in and of itself to do so as long as the player directed to is selected for a good reason.

[StrangerCoug]

StrangerCoug is being his normal self except for THIS POST which is totally dumb and scummy:

I'm seeing a very strong link between roflcopter and Penguins of the Serengeti, and they both need to get real or die. If we have a vig and one of those people get lynched, I want him or her to target the other.

Basically you're saying you aren't a vig also.

That is the implication, yes. However, it is only scummy if I claim contradictory to what I imply in this post. I have not claimed yet, and I'm nowhere near that point.

Copter is not acting anti-town at all. Where do you get this? He's expressing opinions, sticking his neck out, and moving things along. He doesn't hurt every game he's in, that's total and utter rubbish.

Yeah, right. Most of his recent contributions, as are yours, are OMGUS attacks. In addition, other games are irrelevant to this one as far as tells are concerned.

[StrangerCoug]

Copter is not acting anti-town at all. Where do you get this? He's expressing opinions, sticking his neck out, and moving things along. He doesn't hurt every game he's in, that's total and utter rubbish.

Yeah, right. Most of his recent contributions, as are yours, are OMGUS attacks. In addition, other games are irrelevant to this one as far as tells are concerned.

Um...what? Most of his posts have either been attacking me (not OMGUS) or attacking Vino (not OMGUS), or attacking Literl (not OMGUS). So, again...what?

Damn it, that's what I get for being so sure of a scumpair. He is unnecessarily defensive of Penguins of the Serengeti, however, which is where I might be getting that from.

[StrangerCoug]

I find it interesting that roflcopter is unwilling to vote me seemingly because he knows he's got practically nothing to back it up with, yet he got MafiaSSK to do so. What is the case on me?

[StrangerCoug]

I find it interesting that roflcopter is unwilling to vote me seemingly because he knows he's got practically nothing to back it up with, yet he got MafiaSSK to do so. What is the case on me?

well thats a hell of a mischaracterization. i'm unwilling to vote you because my vote is doing a hell of a lot more good on a wagon than it would be alone on you.

That doesn't answer my question.

Vino: I'm just getting scum vibes from SC.

According to some people in this game, you are displaying anti-town behavior with this post. They'll let it slide, though, because you don't make the scum as nervous as I do.

Coaching for the lose.

REVISED SCUMLIST: KoCydonia, Litral, Numberfourteen, Yosarian, Vino, orangepenguin and StrangerCoug.

You're one person away from having half the game in your scum list, which goes to show you either don't know how to scumhunt or don't really care about scumhunting.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Please note my sig.

[StrangerCoug]

OK, I have to admit it. So many people are frustrating me right now, and I know they can't possibly

ALL

be scum... unlike someone else in this game *dirty look at Penguins of the Serengeti*

[StrangerCoug]

OK, I have to admit it. So many people are frustrating me right now, and I know they can't possibly

ALL

be scum... unlike someone else in this game *dirty look at Penguins of the Serengeti*

And how does this post exactly help town?

Causing frustration is not scummy per se (and this is actually me resisting the temptation to say anything along the lines of otherwise), but there are suspects of mine, e.g. Penguins of the Serengeti, that are doing so. By giving Penguins of the Serengeti a dirty look, I'm trying to hurt her more than help anybody in particular.

[StrangerCoug]

OK, I have to admit it. So many people are frustrating me right now, and I know they can't possibly

ALL

be scum... unlike someone else in this game *dirty look at Penguins of the Serengeti*

And how does this post exactly help town?

Causing frustration is not scummy per se (and this is actually me resisting the temptation to say anything along the lines of otherwise), but there are suspects of mine, e.g. Penguins of the Serengeti, that are doing so. By giving Penguins of the Serengeti a dirty look, I'm trying to hurt her more than help anybody in particular.

Why couldn't you have just done a FOS or something?

I thought my vote on her made it clear that I suspect her.

[StrangerCoug]

Again, it's intended to hurt Penguins of the Serengeti. The more we push her, the more likely we can lynch her.

[StrangerCoug]

Stranger, you only just make more sense than roflcopter. Sober up please.
Not, but seriously, I think voting for someone is enough of a push for one person.

No I am an aggressive pusher and will do anything within my power to ensure the lynch I want to happen happens. I'll continue discussing that post of mine when you explain how it's bad per se to cast someone you're already voting in a bad light.

[StrangerCoug]

Stranger, you only just make more sense than roflcopter. Sober up please.
Not, but seriously, I think voting for someone is enough of a push for one person.

No I am an aggressive pusher and will do anything within my power to ensure the lynch I want to happen happens. I'll continue discussing that post of mine when you explain how it's bad per se to cast someone you're already voting in a bad light.

By the time you were to have voted you should have already put a case on them. The case should have all the bad light you need.

I voted Penguins of the Serengeti for saying I've called everything WIFOM when I've only called one thing WIFOM. I remember talking about her outing the entire mason group sometime around then. She's been flailing since, and I want the town to note this. By all means I'm going to push cases and cast negative light on someone I already have a vote on. That's how this game works.

I would like for ScumCougar to list who else he finds scummy

Right now, it's Litral, Vino, and to some extent Yosarian2.

and explain, in detail, why he's not voting for them instead of me.

Because I don't have to. As I tell MafiaSSK above, you're flailing, and this is a clear indicator of this—I know you want my vote elsewhere, and I refuse to comply with your wishes. I have plans on moving, but they involve a change of address, not a change of vote.

If the players below are not in his list, I want to his opinion of them to be clearly stated for the record:

KoCydonia

None at this time.

Numberfourteen

I buy Numberfourteen's confusion from earlier as to why he dropped off—we were all confused at that point. His posts after that are pro-town in my book.

orangepenguin

He hasn't shown his face a lot, but the last time I checked, it was usual for him to lurk.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: Oh wait, I am not allowed to suspect my mason partners, but you are. I forgot - The Mason Code! Ignore my FOS, please!

It is not the mason code but the double standard that I see as wrong. By all means attack her if you think she's scum.

[StrangerCoug]

I am very impatient, however, to prove ScumCougar dead wrong, as I probably find him just as irritating as I find him.

Wrong about what?

unvote, vote: Penguins of the Serengeti

It may be in a different context, but I'll tell you right now what has been hammered in my head 10,000 times over the course of middle and early high school: Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

ok sreiously, i'm really durnk and haven't read the recent posts but why is penguins getting voted when she's so obvious town? i don't understand this at all.

Are you oblivious to what she has been doing!?

[StrangerCoug]

I am very impatient, however, to prove ScumCougar dead wrong, as I probably find him just as irritating as I find him.

Wrong about what?

About my alignment, and your so-called scumtells.

Your alignment cannot be proven without you being investigated or dying, so that changes squat about my thinking.

And prove that my scumtells are wrong regardless of your alignment.

unvote, vote: Penguins of the Serengeti

It may be in a different context, but I'll tell you right now what has been hammered in my head 10,000 times over the course of middle and early high school: Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

I want the permanent solution. My 'problem' is not temporary, it's terminal. It's not suicide, I want euthanasia.

Be warned that by being self-defeatist you hurt your own side whether you're town or scum.

You can't self vote and then accuse someone else of pushing an early lynch.

I HAVE DONE NOTHING OF THE SORT, SCUM BAG.

Except you just did - you accused me of pushing for the lynch too quickly when I said I would give you an hour.

Which is one of the very few legitimate accusations she's made lately.

HoS: Knight of Cydonia

for logical fail along with the reasons already stated by others.

[StrangerCoug]

There's so many connections I'm seeing... Penguins of the Serengeti and roflcopter, Knight of Cydonia acting similarly to Penguins of the Serengeti, and I remember Vino being involved in one (I think Litral)...

ARGH!

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote

This game is way too confusing.

No fooling. It's like everybody is crazy.

[StrangerCoug]

Knight of Cydonia, you're a great poet, but are you going to defend yourself or just post fluff?

[StrangerCoug]

There's so many connections I'm seeing... Penguins of the Serengeti and roflcopter, Knight of Cydonia acting similarly to Penguins of the Serengeti, and I remember Vino being involved in one (I think Litral)...

ARGH!

This seems to be misleading in a scummy sort of way, though KoC is parodying me, ScumCougar's calling it a 'connection' is a big stretch, unless ScumCougar has a credible explanation for it.

The two of you have created similar distractions by self-voting and voicing death wishes against yourselves. Self-voting is enough of a death wish as is.

Unvote

This game is way too confusing.

No fooling. It's like everybody is crazy.

He may be saying this because KoC has painted ScumCougar into a corner - by acting like me, ScumCougar has to vote against KoC to be consistent, but he's not ready to vote his buddy as quickly as he was to vote me.

Since when did I have to vote Knight of Cydonia for consistency purposes?

Puzzling is ScumCougar and GnKoichi's hesitation on hopping on the KoC wagon.

Prove that us hesitating to vote Knight of Cydonia when we think someone is scummier than him is scummy.

StrangerCoug is also very aggressive, maybe too much to be scum. Again I don't see a scumbag be so rabid against a townie unless in a rush to go to night and thrilled to have found an easy target.

Now you're being inconsistent. You keep calling me ScumCougar, and even do so earlier in the post I'm quoting this from, yet here you question whether or not I'm scum. If you think I am rushing to get someone lynched, you must prove that I am doing so for your case on me to be valid.

Rogl: Why is PoS obvtown?

Why don't you contribute your own thoughts, lurkerscum? You're totally not town in this game.

I have a gift for you.

unvote, vote: Empking

More question dodging, and a crap vote on EmpKing's Alt to boot. Just for this and the above-noted inconsistency:

CONFIRM VOTE: PENGUINS OF THE SERENGETI

[StrangerCoug]

And read Gn's posts carefully; you don't think he seems to be delibratly trying to find excuses to avoid getting on the KoC wagon and finding excuses to avoid even answering questions about KoC?

GnKoichi is starting to look suspicious in my eyes, but Knight of Cydonia just barely has to do with them—the refusal to respond to quotes not given in their entirety is the most damning thing I see him having committed. I still believe him to be pushing Penguins of the Serengeti the most.

First of all, you can't accuse her of "question dodging" when she's responding to a post where EmpKing asked Rotfl why he thinks Penguins is town. That dosn't make sense, since she can't and shouldn't answer a question, directed at someone else, about what he thinks abut her.

And secondly; a crap vote on EmpKing? Really? In several of her recent posts, she's been pointing out the fairly low amount and quality of contrabutions he's made this game. Do you disagree with that? You're trying to make it sound like this is a vote she's given no reason for, and that's clearly not true.

I misinterpreted the post as yet another OMGUS attack as I felt the original question to be perfectly legitimate. It also wasn't clear to me that she was attacking Empking's Alt's minimal contributions, but rereading her post, it makes sense that that's what she's doing. The inconsistency argument against her (her calling me ScumCougar and then questioning my scumminess, especially in the same post) still stands, however, and I still think it's clear that Penguins of the Serengeti is a drama queen to say the least.

[StrangerCoug]

Unvote

This game is way too confusing.

No fooling. It's like everybody is crazy.

He may be saying this because KoC has painted ScumCougar into a corner - by acting like me, ScumCougar has to vote against KoC to be consistent, but he's not ready to vote his buddy as quickly as he was to vote me.

Since when did I have to vote Knight of Cydonia for consistency purposes?

By applying a double standard, you are giving the impression that you are pushing for the lynch of a player, while protecting the other. This suggests that KoC, if scum, might be your buddy.

I can't vote two people, Penguins of the Serengeti. My only option is to go after the one I'm more sure of.

Puzzling is ScumCougar and GnKoichi's hesitation on hopping on the KoC wagon.

Prove that us hesitating to vote Knight of Cydonia when we think someone is scummier than him is scummy.

This is not a reasonable request. It is not something that I can prove. Only your deaths, and the revelation of your alignments, can prove or disprove my SUSPICION.

I said scummy, not scum. Now comply. Use other games if you have to (just make sure they're finished).

StrangerCoug is also very aggressive, maybe too much to be scum. Again I don't see a scumbag be so rabid against a townie unless in a rush to go to night and thrilled to have found an easy target.

Now you're being inconsistent. You keep calling me ScumCougar, and even do so earlier in the post I'm quoting this from, yet here you question whether or not I'm scum. If you think I am rushing to get someone lynched, you must prove that I am doing so for your case on me to be valid.

Same as above. This is only provable by your deaths. I am not being inconsistent. I do try to take a step back, after I'm cooled down by cheesecake, to see other players points of you, and try to give my best possible guess as to their alignments.

A contradiction still exists without you proving that I'm rushing. You call me a very aggressive player and think that scum wouldn't "be so rabid against a townie unless in a rush to go to night", yet you are accusing me of tunnel vision, which I only understand in context of my case against you.

ScumCougar, I think you are unreasonable, tunnel-visioning, and completely anti-town. You are not making any effort to read arguments, absord them, and give logical answers. You are simply rejecting everything that does not fit your tunnel-vision notions.

Most of this applies to you too. I can't really accuse you of tunnel visioning if you're biting practically everybody's head off, and you're doing better than you were earlier today in terms of cases, but the rest of this statement is also an accurate description of you as far as I am aware.

[StrangerCoug]

"Prove that if I really think you're scummier then him blah blah blah" is not a ratioanl response to that; of course if you really think that, then it makes sesne, but a more useful response would be for you to explain WHY you think PoS is scummer then KoC, if that is still what you think, StrangerCoug.

I'm not asking Penguins of the Serengeti that one person is scummier than another. I'm asking her to prove actions as scummy. When I start a sentence with the words "Prove that..." I really mean "Give evidence that..." Clear to everybody?

I want Penguins of the Serengeti dead for her flailing around, OMGUS attacks, etc., but if Knight of Cydonia doesn't stop making fluff posts and start scumhunting, I will seriously reconsider my vote.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm not asking Penguins of the Serengeti that one person is scummier than another. I'm asking her to prove actions as scummy

Same difference. Actions cannot be proven as scummy until after the player is dead and the alignment revealed. Nor can 'evidence that actions are scummy' can be provided. Scummy means inductive of suspicion. What I find most suspicious is to see players do what I've seen my scumbuddies do with regularity in other games. It's experience. It's what I observe over and over. I can't prove anything. One thing I do see often is scum pretending to be oblivious to common sense observations, in order to stick to their agenda. I do often see scum treating townies and buddies differently for the same actions. One thing I rarely see them do, is to be as hell-bent for lynching a particular townie as you are, especially one that is not a power role. So I explained what I found scummy about you, and what I felt was less scummy about you. Demanding this kind of burden of proof on this sort of statement is unreasonable.

Seeing as I'm finding it pointless to continue this line of argument, I'm going to drop it.

You're not asking that of anyone else, for instance, you're not grilling KoC's poetic little feet. You're gently coaching him, now under threat of a vote, but you're not demanding that he proves things, explain himself, you're not truly challenging specific aspects of his behavior. Just generalities, like the one below:

...but if Knight of Cydonia doesn't stop making fluff posts and start scumhunting, I will seriously reconsider my vote.

And what about Empking? He doesn't have to stop making fluff posts and scum hunt?

My not mentioning somebody does not necessarily mean I am giving them a free pass. Knight of Cydonia is closer to being lynched than Empking the last time I checked. The former's fluff posts are also more blatant as he is making zero attempt to try. If Empking learns by example, then I'm sure he'll realize what's going on with Knight of Cydonia and change his ways, but as I said I generally go after the person I find scummiest.

...and a crap vote on EmpKing's Alt to boot.

And why the defense of Empking? Is Empking even defensible?

I already addressed this at #635.

[StrangerCoug]

First of all, you can't accuse her of "question dodging" when she's responding to a post where EmpKing asked Rotfl why he thinks Penguins is town. That doesn't make sense, since she can't and shouldn't answer a question, directed at someone else, about what he thinks about her.

And secondly; a crap vote on EmpKing? Really? In several of her recent posts, she's been pointing out the fairly low amount and quality of contributions he's made this game. Do you disagree with that? You're trying to make it sound like this is a vote she's given no reason for, and that's clearly not true.

I misinterpreted the post as yet another OMGUS attack as I felt the original question to be perfectly legitimate. It also wasn't clear to me that she was attacking Empking's Alt's minimal contributions, but rereading her post, it makes sense that that's what she's doing. The inconsistency argument against her (her calling me ScumCougar and then questioning my scumminess, especially in the same post) still stands, however, and I still think it's clear that Penguins of the Serengeti is a drama queen to say the least.

You mean, I should find the answer to the question in the above nonsencial gibberish? Maybe I've hit the bottle of Bailey's too hard, but whuuuut? My pointing out of Empking's abysmal performace is OMGUS??? Whauuut?

Sober up and read the first two sentences of what I said again.

You're still not explaining why you're DEFENDING Empking.

Because I haven't been since I realized I misinterpreted your post as OMGUS.

[StrangerCoug]

So Empking can get away with it because my vote wasn't OMGUS?

No; it is perfectly acceptable to attack a player that isn't helping the town. What makes you think that I'm letting Empking be unhelpful?

[StrangerCoug]

No; it is perfectly acceptable to attack a player that isn't helping the town.

On a scale of 0-100, with 0 being completely unhelpful, and 100 being super helpful, how would you rate the following players?

Yosarian2

I'd say somewhere in the 60's. He has set me off, but has done very few major things.

Empking

I see some pro-town posts looking at him in isolation, but very few. I'll give him a 25.

KoC

0. Enough said.

Litral

He was OK in the beginning, but brought up the jester argument for no good reason, and then seems to have disappeared. 10 or so.

[StrangerCoug]

Unconfirm and unvote: Penguins of the Serengeti

[StrangerCoug]

That does it...

Vote: Knight of Cydonia

[StrangerCoug]

I missed this. Who is BSG replacing?

Mod

?

BSG replaces crywolf20084 effective immediately.

[StrangerCoug]

Just thought of something. Coug, didn't you complain of being outed as a vig after to many players talked about it? So why are you talking about a vig if you didn't like that in that game? Seems OP already pointed this out.

I think you're talking about Open 81. In that game, another player drove me to claim vig when he said that I was at L-3 and implicated me regarding some vig issue that I don't remember. While I tried to avoid talking too much about the vig because I thought I'd give myself away as such, it apparently came to that. I may or may not be a vig in this game, but that game did teach me a lesson, if the lesson comes from after I claimed (

DON'T ANNOUNCE YOUR VIG TARGETS OUT LOUD!

). The issue about directing the vig also came up that game, but I'd have to look at it again to figure out the consensus.

[StrangerCoug]

Aw shit.
Fucking Coug.

Tee hee

Unvote: Knight of Cydonia

since I believe your claim. You can breathe now (unless Natirasha modkills you).

I'm almost certain that one of Numberfourteen or Yosarian2 has to be scum since their quoted mason PM's differ.

[StrangerCoug]

Hey roflcopter, where are your useful posts?

[StrangerCoug]

So many people are frustrating me right now

, and I know they can't possibly ALL be scum

Frustrating as in irritating or frustrating as in scummy?

Irritating, though scummy actions have to do with it.

Also, back to something else. Coug, one of your reasons for voting PotC was that she said that you called a lot WIFOM, while you did it only one time. So I was wondering what the difference of this action is with calling most of her attacks OMGUS which has been disproven? Isn't that as scummy to you and why?

Is this Penguins of the Cougar or Penguins of the Cydonia? xD

There was a point where she put everyone attacking her on her scum list, which got all the way up to seven people. I had a basis for mine, even if it ended up being flawed; I can't find the basis for Penguins of the Serengeti's saying I've made a bunch of WIFOM arguments.

[StrangerCoug]

Where the heck did DrippingGoofball come from!?

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Note sig.

Since I can only be on for an hour at a time, I'll most likely reread when I get back.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: I hereby request replacement. See updated sig for reason.

[StrangerCoug]

BAH!

[StrangerCoug]

So

THIS

is why people don't like cults. Seriously, the end of the game didn't look much fun to me.

[StrangerCoug]

What does an alarmist do?

Oh, me? I could prevent a player from being recruited into the cult that night. It's a shame I never used it, because I have a fetish for power roles...