Open 122 - Near Vanilla (Game over)

[camn]

Hello. Wow. I replaced in for Zazie without really looking over this game. So far it makes me want to claw my eyes out.
Here are my notes, they are not complete, because I am now suicidal. Don't expect a retrograde PBPA, sorry.

I skimmed day 1. It looks pretty much useless, so I will put off reading it better until later on. dejkha vs. empking is grade-school style.
Day 2:

FOS : Kreriov

for wagon-analyzing the Empking wagon. Killing empking was pro-town, despite his alignment. He was an obvious distraction. But you seem useful later on, I guess.

VP Balthar comes out like a good replacement. I think town. If he is scum, we will see a scum-win, I think.

Gosh. I am already tired of you guys. All these insults and foul language! Enough!

Zwet in post 602 = terrible logic.
Hewitt in 635 = town. But there is no such thing as "killer long"

ANd now, christ! A brand-new green newb does something brilliant.. and you guys lynch him for it.
Mufasa, I salute you.
If you hadn't gotten counterclaimed...... you could have drawn the nightkill easily. That was your plan, right? Get killed, taking one for the town, and get out of this insane game? Hmph.

Well.. those are my thoughts off the cuff. A little stream-of-consciousness, please forgive me.. . but I couldn't read it all without wanting to die.

And now, poor KMD. We were on the same side for once.... and you are already dead.

[camn]

why would a townie intentionally out a Doc?

In fact, seriously, HOW would a townie out a doc?

Claiming Doc is for 2 logical purposes, and 2 only.

A) scum trying to find the real doc
B) town trying to draw a nightkill

In EITHER scenario, the real doc should stay silent.

Mufasa flipped town, so barring insanity, it was option b.
Anyone care to talk about the logic I just put forth?

Now @keirlov: no comments on my FOS of you? Just a crapcase and a vote? Hm.

@maadnet: why did you claim?

[camn]

@ Balthar: Thank you, sir, and PS: I loved the ending.
I also loved this BSG theme game we played recently... it was awesome.

And please, all.. my apologies. I pledge a fresh start. Although I felt like executing St. Valentine on first read.. I think we can do better.

No more negativity from me! This is my promise.

Open question: Is Kreriov's OMGUS case scummy? Or just rookie emotions?
I think the fact that he didn't mention my FOS leans it more toward scummy..... but I seek your opinions.

preview edit:
@ Hewitt : it was maadnet that misplayed, though, you understand. Despite dejkha's 767, he claimed. This was not Mufasa's problem.
And for everyone thinking we even NEED a doc in a near vanilla.. you are mistaken. Docs aren't that useful.

[camn]

However, I think camn was making more of an observation and it's not really worth chastising her over. Hewitt brings up a good point about camn's defense potentially being used to falsely attack people on the wagon...though pointing it out now makes it an invalid move for camn to make. Personally I don't think she's worth a vote at this point. She's not cleared by any means, but I think it would be best to find the scum who actually have a posting history in this game.

Except that the wagon on Mefusa was just, IMO. Once couterclaimed, you had to assume he was scum.
He just should have never been counterclaimed. That is where the fail was.

But it isn't worth talking about. It iwas an observation. My attempt at improving the level of play around here.

Now, for grins:

I think it was a selfish decision to attempt to remain in a game he obviously did not even want to be involved in.

Logical? Why try and stay in a game you don't want to stay in?

Does it really matter other than trying to figure out why in the hell Camn would want to put herself out there by backing such a stupid action?

Because it wasn't stupid. It was brilliant. Once you understand the difference, you will begin to improve. a 100% of vanilla Nightkill > 1/4 chance of a PowerRole Nightkill. Luckily KMD is a good enough player to draw the kill.

+1 on Spyrex's call for Dej-info. YOu did seem like you had something to say yesterday!

[camn]

Why did you claim?

[camn]

It's like you're trying to instill a psychological connection in the rest of the towns' minds that you're town without directly saying it.

I am town.

you have been one of their biggest defenders and have also pursued pretty bad lynches this game overall, imo.

And VP.. Do you mean Empking and Mufasa? because from here, even knowing they were town, both those lynches seemed justified.

Can you point out how they were bad? Other than the outcome, of course?

[camn]

I know.

[camn]

Ztife

I agree on both your points. If maad IS the doc, it is unfortunate that he played scummy and earned enough votes and felt compelled to claim. If that is why he claimed. Which he never answered.
But that is entirely separate from Mufasa's play, and entirely unknowable by Mufasa at that time. None of this matters, except that it goes to LIVING player's ability to reason, which is why I brought it up in the first place.

Likewise, I agree that we need to start lynching scum. However, I don't think that the first two nights were "bad lynches". Given, I wasn't there, but in casual retrospect, they seemed justified... which means being on those lynches WAS NOT SCUMMY, in and of itself. In fact.. NOT being on it may be the scummy thing.
That is why I point it out.. to defuse the reasoning that lynching a townie makes you scum.
Day 1 lynches of annoying people are INCREDIBLY common. And however the point was reached, lynching a couterclaimed power role is a good play almost 100% of the time.

So back to my question:
VP.. How were those "bad lynches"? Or was there something specific about hewitt that made his support of them bad?

[camn]

Wow, you guys post a lot in the morning!

My 3? Hewitt, Kreilov, and unknown.. possibly Zwet.

Why? I'll try and put it together later on... but my read right now = them.

[camn]

I have to say, with dismay, that I agree with zwet.

Dej.. your weird speculation regarding the Nightkill and VP's other suspects.... none of it is pro-town, and none of it is good defense against his arguments against you.

I also agree with a mega-town read on VP.

His prancing around the vote is scummy because it shows he was trying to look town by not acting too quickly. He was basically asking the town for approval to vote so later he could shirk responsibility, and say 'well, we all agreed on it'. It is most definitely a scum tell.

This is very true. Dej actually responds with this!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did we not all agree on it? I'd imagine anyone on his wagon was ok with it. What kind of townie would I be if I didn't let people say their last words? If people had anything else to say or ask, I gave them the chance.

I think this is totally telling.

VP: Saying "we all agreed on it is scummy"
Dej: We all agreed on it though! Its not my fault!


ALSO.. please explain this:

You're right that hewitt very well could be my scum partner

,....blah..blah...

[camn]

Hewitt couldn't be MY scum partner, despite what anyone might think. How could he be yours?

[camn]

That IS what he was doing.

[camn]

@VP....

I'm not sure yet. I think we need to slow it down around here, get some logic going. A speed lynch doesn't help us at all, regardless of Dej's alignment.

If Dej is scum, though.. Heweitt is definitely his partner.

[camn]

This is kind of funny though because you're accusing me of being dejkha's partner if he's scum yet you and VP are kind of working as a team.

What exactly is funny about it?

[camn]

Dej.. although I like the growing case on VP.. one question:

Do you, or do you not agree, that CounterClaiming was the WRONG move for maadnet-town to do, regardless of Mufasa's alignment?

[camn]

OK. I agree that it was the wrong move.

Now, I imagine I would have agreed with the Mufasa lynch.

But it is not reasonable for a person to assume that, since CCing makes NO SENSE as town, that Maadnet might have been scum?

[camn]

@ spyrex. I don't care about the lynch, I just want to try and insert some logic somewhere. Anywhere. Plus I need to assess people's ability to reason.

Kreriov's last post shows I have more work to do.

@ Kreriov: Please point out where I am "insinuating" that I don't believe maad.
FTR, I believe Maad's claim. I have no reason to disbelieve it. Dej's recent logic makes sense to me.. Maad-scum claiming is senseless, especially in retrospect.

However, I don't fault VP for suspecting Maad at the time.
So please.. show me this insinuation.

[camn]

So, for clarity.. you read my above quotes as me not believing Maadnet's claim?

[camn]

Wow.

About this point, if we didn't already have a claimed doc.. I would claim it, just to draw the nightkill and be done with this!

that said:
ac1983fan - die lurker die. (that means noread)
dejkha - leaning scum
camn - obv town
Maadneet - true doc?
zwetschenwasser - town
Kreriov - ... hmm. Leaning town
SpyreX - town.
Ztife - no read.
hewitt - scum
VP Baltar - town.

I am now leaning town on Kreriov on the basis of "too scummy to be scum"

Thus, IN MY OPINION, the scum in: Hewitt, Dejkha, Ztife, ac1983.

I find it hard to fathom that hewitt and dej would buddy up so hard as scum.. but I am getting a kind of newb-read off hewitt, so I can see it.

@ hewitt... look me up. If I were scum with VP, there is no way I would back his play like I have been. I am backing it because I think it is town-driven. That is the difference between your examples.

ALL THAT SAID.. I am willing to lynch dej. Is there a votecount? If you are at L-1, dej, claim or die.

[camn]

Sorry, hewitt, but you are reading it wrong.

a) I gave no argument as to your scummyness when I dropped my list. You are listed as scum DESPITE the fact that buddy-ing up is generally NOT something experienced scum do. Not because of it.

b) ... you DO give me a newb vibe. Mostly because of stuff like what you just did. I said what I meant, and you interpreted it as the opposite. This is a newb move. It has nothing to do with intelligence, just experience. Plus, mind your tags.

c) Dejkha wouldn't have any say in it. Daytalk is uncommon.

NOW.. on to more pressing matters!

dejkha(2) - zwetschenwasser, VP Baltar

...With 10 alive, you'll need 6 votes to lynch.

vote: dejkha

God this is ridiculous.

Vote: Dejkha

VOTE : DEJKHA

That looks like L-1
dejkha(5) - zwetschenwasser, VP Baltar, ac1983, Spyrex, camn

Claim or die.

[camn]

I did claim. Is everyone cool with a self hammer?

I'm sorry, I missed it in the nonsense... could you please repeat?

[camn]

Why would you threaten to self-hammer?

[camn]

Well, that's not a very pro-town way to play.
Self-voting is just ridiculous.

[camn]

Well. I am going to start playing this game ENTIRELY by gut.

Unvote:
Vote: ac1983fan

I think if Dej were scum, he would have self hammered out of spite.
I have also decided that the VP/Dej battle is Town vs. Town.
Enough with the insults, though, you two.. or I'm going to get your father.

Ac1983- Zero hunting. Lots of off topic discussion.. math, theory, etc. Lurking. Opportunistic voting on Dej.

[camn]

Why? Scum do it all the time... and angry scum do it even more.

[camn]

He had his chance. He didn't do it.

[camn]

No, they don't. But thanks for trying.

Now, what about ac1983? Since you are here, what do you think of him?

[camn]

I concur.
Lets run him up.

[camn]

I'm not wondering. I know why.
Andfor clarity.. my posts last night were not a "no".

Self hammering is dumb. BUT, Go ahead and do it. More power to you. I personally don't think you have the balls.

and @ spyrex... shhh.. shhh..

[camn]

Cuz I only had 2 minutes.

[camn]

@ac... I will answer it tomorrow, if you want. game-tomorrow.

[camn]

Camn, stop ignoring me and give me a GOOD reason why you unvoted dejkha.

THAT I will answer....
I didn't want him to hammer while I was asleep.
Plus, I like to see how people act when someone is at L-1, and everyone ELSE seemed asleep.
PLUS, reasons of my own.
Convince me he's scum. I will hammer if you do.

I'm not really getting into this game.

Are you GOING to get into this game... ?

[camn]

looks to me like you have no reason not to answer that question now camn, I would like to hear it as well.

PS...
Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. Ask me again tomorrow. But don't expect much, I am playing by gut now.

[camn]

PPS!

If dej flips town, it almost CONFIRMS VP as TOWN... by means of the KMD-Gambit confirmation.

On the other hand, if Dej flips scum, it is a null-tell. VP could be bussing.

[camn]

KMD-town made up some insane reason to push a case on a town-camn, which he called the KMD-Gambit.
He continued to push it, despite all reason and logic.
Camn soft-clears KMD, because scum would know that camn was town, and thus NOT push a bonzo-case.

Camn correctly IDs all scum. We lose anyway.

Good old times

The KMD-gambit falls into obscurity, since it only caught town.
However, KMD-Gambit CONFIRMATION still holds, given today's site-meta.


ps

UNVOTE
VOTE: DEJKHA

I bet he is scum, after all.
AS IF I am waiting on Zwet.

[camn]

I think VP is town, and camn is scum based on her implied inside knowledge of dej's towniness.

Nope, that was just a decent gut-read. I should have stuck with it.
I agree that VP is town, based on the

KMD-Gambit Confirmation

.

Anyway, I hope Spyrex gets into this game more. I was thinking about him last night, that I have enjoyed playing with him in the past.

Also, Maadneet! Did you save someone again? Who was it? Though i guess it could have been the Jailkeeper that did it.

VOTE:ac1983fan

No more lurking.
If you are town, we need you.
If you are scum, please die.

[camn]

The answer was simple.

Furious scum self-hammer when they think they are about to get lynched. My read on Dej was that, if he were scum, he would have self hammered.

He didn't, so he looked pretty town to me....not that I was going to waste any time defending him.
SO>>>>
I flipped the wagon, and I was thinking that IF dej was scum, any scum would very quickly follow me onto a town-wagon.
Alternatively, if he were town, NO scum would follow me onto a scum-wagon.

This gambit has almost convinced me of Ac1983's being scum.

Obviously I couldn't explain that then, because it would have totally blown the gambit.

Wait... You're saying that you should have helped with the mislynch, camn?

I don't know what you are talking about here, sir.

[camn]

SO>>>>
I flipped the wagon, and I was thinking that IF dej was scum,

any scum

would very quickly

follow

me onto a town-wagon.
Alternatively, if he were town,

NO scum

would

follow

me onto a scum-wagon.

This gambit has almost convinced me of Ac1983's being scum.

That gambit fails epically. First of all, self-hammering or not doesn't have to do with the player's alignment as much as the player themselves. Secondly, why would

I follow

you onto another wagon I didn't agree with? By your logic, everybody who didn't change their vote is scum. And anyway, you hammered dej, so you must've still thought he was scum?

I liked your last post Ac.

Especially the part where you claim scum.

Would you like to re-read, and perhaps adjust your position?
My gambit doesn't say anything about anyone who may or may not have flipped wagons with me.
It says something about YOU. The target of my wagon-flip.

[camn]

Question for everyone:

Given there are actually scum reading this game.....
.......why didn't any of them follow me over to an ac1983 wagon?
In fact, once I left the Dejkha wagon... MORE people jumped on it, and I got nothing on ac1983.

I know one reasonable answer.
And I know one likely answer.

I wonder on everyone else's opinion.

[camn]

Did you read my brilliant gambit?

The lurking is just a bonus.

[camn]

!!

You should be nicer to me.
I might pout.


Since you are so anti... show me a better case!

[camn]

It has no significance if it doesn't work.

If it does, then AC1983 is caught scum.

But I will admit, it is not a lock. I was a little impatient, I think.

[camn]

I do admit to a lack of patience re: my play.

I also agree that the mafia is not trying to "trick" us. The lack of NKs is almost certainly due to strong play by the Doc/JK.

[camn]

They might not be working.. but my motive is "trying to save this game from self-destruction"!

[camn]

VP worries me only because he feel so town - and isn't dead for it. Its almost the "genius gambit".

There has only been one nightkill, spyrex. VP could very well have been TARGETED....

[camn]

Knowing exactly who the JK blocked is some pretty important information to have, don't you think?

How is it important?
in fact, What use would it be to the town AT ALL?

[camn]

Nope. Go on.

[camn]

Or town. PLease re-read definition of Jailkeeper.

[camn]

OR the doctor could have done it!

Put that in your maths.

[camn]

You all fail at maths.

Knowing the JK's targets would simply give us a list of 1-3 people who MAY or MAY NOT be scum.
It is absolutely not the right thing to do.
JK, DO NOT CLAIM!

That said, I am off to school.

[camn]

I do find it interesting to see WHO thinks its a bad idea without even trying to support their logic.

Camn, irregardless of the info we may or may not get from the JKs night actions, do you think it would be valuable to have a JK claim/cc fight now, rather than during LYLO?

If we do it now, there will be no JK in LyLO.
On the other hand,
If the JK lives until Lylo, then there IS no Lylo.

Do you think narrowing down the field of suspects by having two known townies (the doc and the JK) would be helpful?

It would be, but it would be MORE helpful to scum, IMO.

Do you think that the current situation makes it tougher on the scum to conduct night moves and if it is tougher, does it outweigh the possible benefits gained by the JK declaring?

Obviously it makes it hard for scum.. they have failed 2 nights out of 3. I still se no benefit from a JK claim. You ignored my previous question.

Basically Camn, you point out that the info we will get may or may not be useful. But you fail to address or consider other benefits/problems. Why?

What benefits?

[camn]

It WILL fail, and the JK will be wasting his choice....

They will switch killers, AND switch targets.

JK.. Keep doing what you do.

[camn]

There are no circles.
It is well accepted that Zwet is in an Insane period,
and it is essential, just in case the JK is a newb, that my advice be out there for him to read.

[camn]

OK, then. Let me recap my thoughts for you all.

ac1983fan - still die lurker die, but leaning a tiny bit town.
camn - obv town
Maadneet - Lurking.

Prod?

Would like him to get involved.
zwetschenwasser - normal zwet = insane town
Kreriov - too scummy to be scum
SpyreX - Town who I love. Or scum that will win. I hope town.
Ztife - unknown. Prob scum
hewitt - hmm. Still split on him.
VP Baltar - Obv town.

I have concluded Ztife must be scum. Prob with ac1983 and one of hewitt/spyrex/zwet.

UNVOTE
Vote Ztife

Case to follow.

[camn]

OK.
a) Fencesitting day 1
b) noncomittal day 2
c) panic-vote when he thinks he is losing the Dej mislynch
d) not making sense.

in his post 14

If we make a wrong lynch on emp, how much of a loss would that be to town? On the other hand, if we manage to hit him as a maf, how beneficial would that be for town? Of course, this is a one-sided view since there will be many different combinations and possibilities.

Vote: Empking

I can't say im confident that empking is mafia, nor im in a rush to end the day. If discussion goes somewhere I might change my vote,

INCREDIBLE fence-sitting. Incredible.

I actually like a lot of His day 1 and 2 posts.. but they, like the rest of the game right then, offer little to base anything on...

Somehow, though, he manages to NOT TAKE A POSITION at all on the Mufasa lynch, too. Hmm.

Then, in 1117.. just as I am trying to derail the Dej wagon, we get this (italics are mine):

Since townies lynches are more likely because

scums will try to push the lynch

..
.....

(camn editing out unnessary stuff, click link for original)

.......

Vote:Dej

...

THEN.. the classic of camn's scumtells. He isn't making sense..
I think scum don't pay as much attention .. cuz they don't have to. They know who the scum are. They don't need to hunt.

in 1242

Everytime you do a random or contradicting action you just seem to explain it off with a gambit, or you have your "own" reasons.

This is a nice misrep. I had ONE gambit, and it was the thing I had my "own" reasons about. Here Ztife is just reading me in iso and building a crap-case. But it gets better.

The way I see it, you and zwet's questioning is almost similiar, its ego defending conversations that hold little content. I don't see hewitt anymore or less scummy from what both of you have just discussed.

We weren't even discussing Hewitt's scumminess. Relevance?

Also, 2 nights without kills, one with KMD instead of maad(doc)... could this possibly be a mafia way to confuse? Since we had some horribly off accusations on D2 and D3, i'm thinking that mafia might actually purposely not send in a NK.

And the scum would like us to think that. We are in a small game with 2 protective roles. The scum are getting blocked.

[camn]

Alright, no more L/A, but I'm going to be busy tonight. I protected Spyrex last night.

I'll have something by tomorrow; I'm going to need some time to do a full reread.

Noted. Sorry simulpost. Glad you are back.

[camn]

If I am lynched and when I turn up townie, that would mean Baltar had led the wagon on two townies. How could you NOT lynch him next?

Because generally, scum don't lead wagons. They try to NOT be scummy.

Do you have any comments on my Ztife case?
I think he is one of the at least 1 scum on the Dej wagon.

[camn]

When I jumped OFF the wagon... Ztife jumped ON. That seems interesting to me, and fits into my gambit as something-scum-would-do.

c

[camn]

that looks like a pretty town list, if you ask me...

[camn]

My thoughts are clear in 1393, I think.

[camn]

Zwet's playstyle has gotten him lynched plenty, I am sure.
I day-vigged him once for it.

[camn]

Your wall of text is unintelligible.

[camn]

Huh, two scum basically ignoring anything I have to say. Nice. What part Camn? Are the post numbers and my descriptions not correct? Which part SpyreX? The part where I specify the exact posts by Baltar and me you should read as context or the part where I provide the exact quote and context supporting my statements that Baltar tries to imply I am dictating to town when I try to question a weird or lurking behavior? Or the part where I point out in post 475 exactly where Baltar uses implication and insinuation and leaves out context to support those insinuations and implications?

It is ALL unintelligible.

Take the above for example.
If you ask a question.. you should put it on it's own line.. like this:

Why are you so insane?

Then you should just wait for an answer...and not answer the question yourself.

[camn]

Scum excuse.

[camn]

I support an ac lynch. Obviously.

[camn]

.... He might not be interested, or it might just be a scum excuse.

[camn]

I'm surprised my wall of text fell out of everybody's notice as usual.

Oh well, I've already said, VP/AC is the most likely scumpair imho.

Down with either.

Vote: acfan

I saw it. You said virtually nothing, and speculated about the identities of our power roles. You also seem to doubt maadnet's claim.
It was pretty much a classic scum-recap, ending with a nice bus of your lurky partner?

Hm.

[camn]

What does "WAY over the top" mean?

[camn]

I wasn't! That was just for illustration purposes!

Walls of text are anti-fun.

[camn]

UNVOTE
VOTE AC1983

[camn]

Ztife-

Show me 2 games where townies self hammered.

And if it were true, answer this: Why didn't Dej (a townie) self hammer?

[camn]

A simple example to prove this point is in the situation earlier, assuming that maad was in L-1, he could have self hammered so we know that mufasa is a fake doc and lynch him. (and possibly lynch a maf)

That would only "prove" your point if it had actually happened!
Did it? Obviously not.

[camn]

The idea of a JK protecting a doc is kinda stupid. There could be strategic reasons why, but i just can't see eye to eye with this. Fair enough reasoning.

If the JK knew that the mafia were going to target the doc... then why not? It would save a kill.
Obviously CONTINUOUS jailing of the doc makes the doc pretty useless....

[camn]

Claim : Jailkeeper

[camn]

Ac fan is a liar.

My predecessor jailkept KMD night one.
I kept SPYREX the next two nights.

I hinted at my interest in Spyrex pretty heavily, then, in fact, outright breadcrumbedit after the save last night:

Anyway, I hope Spyrex gets into this game more.

I was thinking about him last night

, that I have enjoyed playing with him in the past.

Note that this was before Maadnet claimed to have also targeted him.

I am almost sure the mafia tried to kill KMD night one, and failed... and then tried again N2, and succeeded.

Confirm vote: Ac1983

[camn]

And I claimed to see what would happen.
Because I have lost hope in this game.

And I hoped that some scum would foolishly counterclaim thinking to get me lynched. Most of the people here don't know about my proclivity for breadcrumbing.

Ac1983 is either lying town (only in this game would I even consider this!) or lying scum, but I am the JK.

[camn]

I did breadcrumb it with the intention of claiming.
When a person is a power role, they have to anticipate claiming it at some point.

AcFan, on the other hand, is NOT a PR, and I wouldn't be surprised if he totally failed to crumb anything.

Crumbing your targets is especially important for protective roles, so that, in the event you are killed, people can maybe figure stuff out.

ACFAN.. did you crumb anything?

@ hewitt.. this

IS

a boring game. I

HAD

lost hope, and ac1983

IS

caught scum.

[camn]

Oh yeah, I crumbed it here, too... I was a jailkeeper in that game:

I also loved this BSG theme game we played recently... it was awesome.

Plus, go ahead and read my distancing myself from the role of JK.
I was a little insane about it.. at that time I was still in hiding-my-identity mode.

The lack of NKs is almost certainly due to strong play by the Doc/JK.

Knowing the JK's targets would simply give us a list of 1-3 people who MAY or MAY NOT be scum.
It is absolutely not the right thing to do.
JK, DO NOT CLAIM!

JK.. Keep doing what you do.

and it is essential, just in case the JK is a newb, that my advice be out there for him to read.

[camn]

WIFOM.

I figured that the scum would think I was, and target someone else.

THEN.. since I had ALMOST targeted KMD, but DIDN'T because I didn't think scum would target him twice in a row... .. I decided to go with Spyrex twice in a row. Not logical, I know.. but that's why I did it.

[camn]

The fact that you don't understand it is part of WHY I had lost hope.

Trust me, Spyrex understands. Maybe he will explain it to you.

(ps.. if you are town, spy.. sorry for all this. I couldn't take it anymore! )

[camn]

It may be wifom, camn, but it's important to look back at what everyone claims their night actions were and see how they interact with our doc.

Why did you think the scum would 'figure you were' going to keep Maad and not play it safe by keeping him? seems like a pretty big risk to take.

By WIFOM.. I mean that WIFOM is the reason I did it. I was WIFOM-ing the scum.
And I was right. They did not, in fact, target maad. Either night. The WIFOM was actually true.

TONIGHT they will target him.
He will be targeting me, and I will try and guess who they are sending to do the kill... in order to save HIM.

[camn]

@ VP.. I am thinking AC, Ztife , and one of Heweitt/Zwet right now.(preview edit.. Zwet, then)


@ Acfan:

I am the real jailkeeper, you got what you wanted, a JK claim so now your scumbuddies can get rid of me, now please die.

If you really thought I was scum, and that this is what I wanted, why would you do it? Why would you counterclaim if you think this?

[camn]

WOW. WOW. and WOW. That really scares me. The fact that you just said they did not, in fact, target maad really leads me to believe that everything you just said was pre-meditated and planned out. Of course, if you were scum you could not send in the nightkill on maadneet and totally claim that.

Explain this.

N2 it is clear the scum targeted KMD.
N3 they targeted Spyrex. (actually, now that I write this, I guess spy could have been the one trying to Kill!)
So I take it back.. N3 they MAY have targeted Maad, and sent Spy to do it.

[camn]

Aha! major camn scumslip.

I don't slip as scum.
Plus, I am town.

Everyone.. the fact that

ZWET

is pushing my lynch should be proof enough that I am town

[camn]

Indeed.

AS far as I can tell right now, it is:

ac1983fan(3) - Ztife, camn, VP Baltar
camn(3) – Kreriov, ac1983fan, zwetschenwasser
(9 alive, 5 to lynch)

I imagine that Spyrex is with us...but hewitt could easily be scum.
Maadnet!, Kreriov! We need your opinions on this.

Mod: Prod Maadnet, pls?

The other two will check in, I hope.

Hewitt.. If you are scum, vote for me. If you are town, vote for AC.
Whoever dies today, we are going to have a lot of clarity tomorrow.

[camn]

What is there to explain?

I have no idea what they did

and frankly, your explanation of what must've gone down (if you're telling the truth) does not make sense to me.

re: this.

Hewitt. It is time to get Precise.

You DO have an idea what they did. For instance.. you KNOW who the scum went after N2. KMD. That is how he ended up dead. This was right after Maad's claim.

THUS, we know that they DID NOT target Maad!

That is what I meant when I said "they didn't target Maad"

We all have evidence as to who they targeted.

I admit, I was a littel rash in assuming that they targeted Spy N3.. so I take that back. But n2 is clear, right?.

[camn]

Who said that?

[camn]

Zwet bumped you off that list.
Anyway, you have always been on my radar. Questioning my claim is NOT scummy.

Your decisions here will be telling, though.

[camn]

ac1983fan(4) - Ztife, camn, VP Baltar, Spyrex
camn(3) – Kreriov, ac1983fan, zwetschenwasser
(9 alive, 5 to lynch)

Thank you Spyrex.
That is L-1, acfan. If you are town, true-claim or die.

Maadnet? Are you here? Feel free to hammer.
I am counting on your protection tonight. I will try and guess which scum they will send after you.

Hewitt, you can hammer, too.. but I would rather be sure that Maad checks in before you do.........

[camn]

Whats so funny?

I would like to be sure Maadnet is on the same page as the me before night falls....

[camn]

Hammering your scumbuddy is against your playstyle.

[camn]

I have never seen you hammer scum.

[camn]

You are SO scum.

Maadnet!
Protect me tonight!

[camn]

If I can stop them one more time, we have a good shot.

[camn]

Fencesitting to the very last, huh?

[camn]

Why should we know that?

[camn]

I jailed Ztife.

I am willing to lynch either him or Zwet.

Zwet, Ztife? Anything to say?

And I will never join Mith's Minions.

[camn]

+1 on VP.

Lets not get rash here.

IF Maadnet followed the plan.. then either:

a) The mafia risked me Jailing maadnet and targeted me....
b) Scum targeted Ztife (UNLIKELY)
c) Ztife is scum
d) Scum no-killed.

Considering I believe ANY sane scum would either have targeted Maadnet of Myself, I think it was either a) or c).


If we lynch Ztife and he flips scum, I can Jail Zwet Tonight, and confirm his alignment.
On the otherhand, we did just earn ourselves a little breathing room, and a Zwet lynch is a worthwhile lynch most days........

and @Kreriov... don't start slinging crap on Spy. If he is scum, then we are going to lose.

[camn]

I agree.

ZWET!

That is L-2... with VERY willing voters.

Claim or die.

[camn]

@Camn - Why shouldn't I suspect SpyreX? If he is scum, we will lose because... why, exactly?.

YOu can suspect him, just don't sling crap at him.

We will lose because I don't suspect him at all. Not even a little. And I don't think Balthar does either. And nobody else is a good enough player to beat him.

SO, Build a case if you must, and it better be REALLY good, becuase you die before he does.

[camn]

Vote Ztife

Zwet is almost "too scummy to be scum"
Plus I am practically convinced on Ztife. I Jailed him because I saw him as scum, not a target.
PLUS.... I accidentally forgot to put in my jail-target until pretty late. I bet Ztife put in his early on, and spaced out re-checking this thread.

He is scum.

In another note, I want apologies from everyone who criticized my Dej-AC bandwagon-switch gambit. (that means you, too, Spy!)

I totally caught scum, and none of you were with me. Catty sons of bitches

This gambit has almost convinced me of Ac1983's being scum.

I liked your last post Ac.

Especially the part where you claim scum.

Given there are actually scum reading this game.....
.......why didn't any of them follow me over to an ac1983 wagon?
In fact, once I left the Dejkha wagon... MORE people jumped on it, and I got nothing on ac1983.

I know one reasonable answer.

AC1983 is caught scum.

[camn]

ha ha, you drunk.

[camn]

Any sane scum would have targeted Maadnet! So as to clear a path to me!

[camn]

I mis-vigged Zwet in a recently completed game.... And I would do it again.

But I like Ztife now. Spyrex has already said it all.

[camn]

Hypothetically......

Its 6:2 right now.

If we MISLYNCH Z, then I continue to play WIFOM with the scum.
If they manage to get a kill in (which I put at, maybe, 50% odds), then we are at 4:2 with a VERY small suspect pool.

I will take those odds.

Someone hammer, and DELETE THE WONDER regarding Ztife. I am going to think he is scum until we find out for sure. I reckon he is, which puts us at 4:1, maybe 5:1 tomorrow?

Maad.. keep with the plan, brother! You protect me, and I will try and protect you!
The scum shouldn't have let Maadnet live so long! Who knew?

Unless something changes DRASTICALLY... we will be lynching, in order:
Ztife
Zwet
Keriov or Hewitt
VP
Spyrex
maadnet
camn

Tomorrow, if EVERYTHING goes against us, it will be Lylo, and I am sure that me, VP and Spyrex will be block voting Zwet.

If, against ALL POSSIBLE ODDS, the scum are actually Hewitt and Keriov.. then you win, my friends. The game is yours.

But they aren't.

The scum are Ztife and Zwet.

[camn]

Well, since we are killing Zwet tomorrow, that is good.

[camn]

Mafia is about what you CAN do, not what you SHOULD do.

And I am pretty sure that I CAN dictate the rest of this game Not because I am a PR, but because I am confirmed town, I have nightkill protection, and I have 3 obvtown allies. You will find that even the most vanilla townie has a

LOT

of clout with those 3 attributes.

That said.. would you care to show me the flaw in the plan?
I admit that if VP or Spy are scum, we will lose.
Also if you AND kreiov are scum.. we lose.

But that cannot be avoided. Too many people are TOO scummy for us to have an auto-win.

But go ahead.. show me the flaw in my reasoning. Present a better plan. I am a rather reasonable girl, even when I am fully in the driver's seat, which I am right now.

[camn]

Unless something changes DRASTICALLY... we will be lynching, in order:
Ztife
Zwet
Keriov or Hewitt
VP
Spyrex
maadnet
camn

It's not dictation, Its a prediction.

Ztife: Spyrex said it all.
Zwet: antics last night
You Two: both probly town, but if the Z's flip town, it must be YOU!
VP, Spy, Maad.. they are town. But if we get down this far, it is because the world has reversed on its axis.

[camn]

This whole conversation is academic. Maadnet is with us, and if he ever looks at this, he will immediately hammer Ztife.
Or, one of us will hammer Zwet when we get tired of screwing around.
Or, one of Zwet-scum or Ztife-scum will self hammer.

Now, on to a mafia-theory discussion...

Hewitt, are you really under the impression that

only

the mafia manipulate, lie, and build alliances? I LOVE lying as town. I also LOVE manipulating scum into doing certain things. Like this:

Hey Scum! I am not going to Jail Maadnet tonight! He is a wide open target!

Now they have to decide if I am telling the truth or not. It is WONDERFUL!

[camn]

wow!

Zwet is clear. I jailed him last night!

And maad is still alive! The game is afoot!

[camn]

i like Kreriov's strategic thinking.... Which inclines me to think town on him.

That really leaves Hewitt.
His nonsense yesterday didn't help, either.

[camn]

camn - JK. No CC. Confirmed.

Maadneet - DOc. No CC. Confirmed.

zwetschenwasser - Confirmed by Camn last night.

Kreriov - unconfirmed

SpyreX - unconfirmed.. but town.

hewitt - unconfirmed

5:1. 3 confirmed. Doc and JK still in play.

I like it.

We have this game on lock now.
The scum made a terrible error last night by not killing Maadnet, and it lost the game for them.
They must not have realized that they were playing for all the marbles

Thus, I believe Hewitt is the last scum.

Spyrex wouldn't have made that mistake.

So.. Today we lynch Hewitt and tonight, if I have to, I Jail Kreiov.

If we are wrong on both counts and scum finally kill Maadnet, that leaves us with myself, Zwet and Kreriov, all alive and confirmed and ready to kill Spyrex. But seriously, for Spyrex to have made this kind of play as scum is unthinkable.

VOTE HEWITT

Just cause I want him dead. I am perfectly willing to sub Kreriov in for this plan... but it would please me to lynch Hewitt, if only for resisting the Ztife wagon yesterday.

And Scum.. if you want advice on why you failed last night...I would be happy to tell you.

This game is over, You might as well give up now.

[camn]

This

is

the fun part!

[camn]

Hewitt!

Any last words?

[camn]

hahahaha!

Good game everyone!
<camn high-fives Zazie>
Thank you for your insane story, and for hosting this game for us!

In truth, this should have been the Mafia's game.
They got unlucky on their night choices, i think!

[camn]

I'll also note that when you voted Ztife because the possibility of him bing JK'd as scum was more likely than being JK'd as a targeted townie, that was actually wrong. It was less likely. So if I'm correct it was actually your less than desirable math skills that lynched scum. Allow me to explain:

If I remember correctly, at the time 9 people were left. The chances of him being town is already more likely due to town outnumbering scum 7-2, but the chances of him being the one of the two to send in the kill made it even less likely. I'm pretty sure that's how it goes anyway. Just thought that was a little funny =/

God, you are annoying even in wrap-up!

9 people. 2 confirmed town. 2 scum. VP is doing the math, and knows he is town. that is 6 unknowns, from VP's perspective.

BY CHANCE

.. the odds of Ztife being scum-sending-in-kill... 1:6=16.6%
The odds of Ztife being TARGETED TOWN = 1:7=14.3%

This, of course, discounts the fact that NO ONE is talking about random chance. Random number generators were not playing at that time.
Next time you want to bring a math argument, pls show your work!

PS.. I would like to say, "you too, Zwet!". I am glad We didn't policy-lynch you though.....! Plus I appreciate that you thought I had it in me to try suck a maneuver as scum! I am flattered.

[camn]

Odds of Ztife being town=odds of Ztife being targeted town

This is where your proof fails. The odds of being town= 7/9 ...the odds of being TARGETED = 1/7 (NOT EQUAL.)

God, I would lynch you again right now.

You are officially on my grudge list.
Don't join my games if you want to live.
I love grudge-kills more than I love winning.

[camn]

I was referring to camn's policy vigging me in medieval mafia.

Ha ha. You WERE a GIANT distraction in that game! I considered it a lynch.

Camn/Spy, did this remind you of Mini 672 at all? The division of the town, the counter claims, the scum being the lurkers watching the town tear itself apart... The only difference is that the town came back to win.

It kind of did...Except obviously the players were a lot different. God how

furious

would Porkens have been if he were here???

I'll also note that when you voted Ztife because the possibility of him bing JK'd as scum was more likely than being JK'd as a

targeted

townie, that was actually wrong.

Ok, like I said the odds of him being town are greater than the odds of him being scum.

You can't even get your story right after the game is over! With townies like you, who needs scum?

[camn]

I'll never tell!

[camn]

Hey now!

I have to say, hewitt, as far as your Day game goes... you were pretty good!
You were relatively low on my suspect list.. and if you had been more lucky at night you mightof/couldve pulled it off!

[camn]

Naw, you guys.. the only Failure here is dejkha at math

[camn]

I have no hard feelings. What's wrong with laughing at your expense? I didn't insult you. I was just saying you made a mistake which I found funny.

God I Totally Agree. Lynching scum and winning the game was a monster mistake. God you suck, VP! How dare you help the town win! You should just be combative and illogical and get lynched for it!

[camn]

Or anyone!

KMD would have probably destroyed you guys, too. I think he was a pretty good choice to kill........not that you could anticipate getting basically ONE kill all game!

I loved your drunk post, BTW.