Open 122 - Near Vanilla (Game over)

[Ztife]

Nice flavour zazie =)

Welcome camn! Now i hope I won't be distracted and biased because there is a girl in this game...

Now that we know that maad is doc (or most likely anyway), it would seem that mafia tried to target acfan on N1, or JK targeted the scum on N1. This should be good info the JK...

Camn, seeing what you posted, you're probably pro-emplynch on D1. Might you elaborate more on what you thought of the emp lynch and how the mafia might/might not have bandwagon him?

[Kmd4390]

I see that I'm allowed a bah post. No information though. So I won't give any. I'm just posting to say that I'm dead and allowed to post. That's it. Content-free. So nobody from any alignment can possibly take anything from this post that will help them or anyone else in this game. That's why it's a bah post with no information. I guess that's the whole purpose. To say that you are dead and to wish your team luck. And I was town in this game, so I am going to wish the town luck. I support the town. That being said, GO TOWN! May all town-aligned players serve their purpose and win this game. Good luck without me. Make the dead me proud. And once again, GO TOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, I'll die now. No more posting from me after this. I'll be in the ground just rotting and being eaten by animals. That's my body at least. Spiritually, I will always be with you. Well, those of you who are aligned with the town. Not the scum. They can die. I hope.

Ok, seriously, I'm done.

Go town.

[Kreriov]

Wow, this game just gets worse and worse.

And Camn, are you kidding me?

ANd now, christ! A brand-new green newb does something brilliant.. and you guys lynch him for it.
Mufasa, I salute you.
If you hadn't gotten counterclaimed...... you could have drawn the nightkill easily. That was your plan, right? Get killed, taking one for the town, and get out of this insane game? Hmph.

Really? He OUTED OUR DOC and you are making excuses for him? First we have deal with Empking, then Mufasa, and now you want us to believe Mufasa's brilliant plan for claiming to be the doc was to get nightkilled? Come on.

And how about this

And now, poor KMD. We were on the same side for once.... and you are already dead

or this

So far it makes me want to claw my eyes out.

or this

A little stream-of-consciousness, please forgive me.. . but I couldn't read it all without wanting to die.

Could you POSSIBLY be any more blatant about trying to establish yourself as a solid townie without a single bit of proof or by any actual actions?

As for the guy you replaced, well, talk about lurking. Until he completely stopped posting, his posting could be the the definition of trying appear like he was participating but not really participating.

Vote: Camn

As for everyone else, does anyone have any idea as to why Madneet is still alive?

Quote tags fixed. Kreriov, you have to use " instead of ' for using quote tags

[dejkha]

Damn. Well, that's 2 out of 3 I was wrong about. *prepares for gloating from kmd at the end of the game*

Even though I'm sure VP is scum due to my awesome gut, I'll

Vote: Zwet

instead since I have actual evidence on him.

Camn, I hope you intend to post more, otherwise I agree with Krev on all of what he said. Especially the "outed our doc part". I cannot believe how you are trying to praise him for what he did. He did one of the most stupid things I've seen in the game and it more than likely just lost us the game.

They probably didn't kill Maad because they know he almost never posts so they'd rather spend their NK on someone more useful to town.

[VP Baltar]

Either the scum didn't target him because it would be too obvious or the jailkeeper protected him.

Krer, if you weren't voting Camn who would your second and third suspects be?

[dejkha]

If the jailkeep protected him, scum wouldn't have known and I don't think they're notified when it happens, so they wouldn't have gotten a NK.

[Kreriov]

I have to go with Baltar on this one. I missed that the JK both protects and roleblocks.

VP, if I were not voting for Camn, my 2nd and 3rd suspects would be dejkha and SpyreX. SpyreX really seems to be willing to vote for either mufasa or madneet, doesn't really matter which. Pretty much the same for Dejkha.

[camn]

why would a townie intentionally out a Doc?

In fact, seriously, HOW would a townie out a doc?

Claiming Doc is for 2 logical purposes, and 2 only.

A) scum trying to find the real doc
B) town trying to draw a nightkill

In EITHER scenario, the real doc should stay silent.

Mufasa flipped town, so barring insanity, it was option b.
Anyone care to talk about the logic I just put forth?

Now @keirlov: no comments on my FOS of you? Just a crapcase and a vote? Hm.

@maadnet: why did you claim?

[VP Baltar]

They probably didn't kill Maad because they know he almost never posts so they'd rather spend their NK on someone more useful to town.

This is ridiculous. My guess is that the scum feared maad would be saved by the JK and so they didn't want to take the chance and went for the next most town person.

As much as you guys seem to hate the idea of claiming doc (or any protown power role), Camn is correct. There are instances in which it is a good play to make for a VT. Whether it was the right move for mufasa to make at that time is debatable, but all in all its not scummy of camn to say it may have been a good thing. Regardless, we are where we are and we know that maad is the doc.

We still have one protection role, so I don't think the town is screwed altogether.

Krer, could you expand a bit on your thoughts on Dej and Spyrex during the lynch yesterday.

[hewitt]

why would a townie intentionally out a Doc?

In fact, seriously, HOW would a townie out a doc?

Claiming Doc is for 2 logical purposes, and 2 only.

A) scum trying to find the real doc
B) town trying to draw a nightkill

In EITHER scenario, the real doc should stay silent.

Mufasa flipped town, so barring insanity, it was option b.
Anyone care to talk about the logic I just put forth?

Now @keirlov: no comments on my FOS of you? Just a crapcase and a vote? Hm.

@maadnet: why did you claim?

Yeah okay option B would've worked out great and all except for the fact that maadneet counterclaimed. Doesn't matter if you think it was pro-town or not it did not work. In fact it royally backfired (although I guess not too royally since maadneet was not nightkilled, which is a little bit odd but if he's the real doc then that's good).

[camn]

@ Balthar: Thank you, sir, and PS: I loved the ending.
I also loved this BSG theme game we played recently... it was awesome.

And please, all.. my apologies. I pledge a fresh start. Although I felt like executing St. Valentine on first read.. I think we can do better.

No more negativity from me! This is my promise.

Open question: Is Kreriov's OMGUS case scummy? Or just rookie emotions?
I think the fact that he didn't mention my FOS leans it more toward scummy..... but I seek your opinions.

preview edit:
@ Hewitt : it was maadnet that misplayed, though, you understand. Despite dejkha's 767, he claimed. This was not Mufasa's problem.
And for everyone thinking we even NEED a doc in a near vanilla.. you are mistaken. Docs aren't that useful.

[SpyreX]

VP, if I were not voting for Camn, my 2nd and 3rd suspects would be dejkha and SpyreX. SpyreX really seems to be willing to vote for either mufasa or madneet, doesn't really matter which. Pretty much the same for Dejkha.

Well, considering the fact I didn't put "a VT would claim doc, forcing a counterclaim in an open setup because thats soo awesome" yes I was willing to vote for either of them because, get this, one of them

should have been scum

.

And to paint that as a simple either or.. wow.

[VP Baltar]

@camn--Haha, you know I thought about creating a thread in general discussion just to talk about the ending. I actually read the BSG mini, and I wish I would have been in it! We should do another one.

*returns to game*

I think the OMGUS could be scummy too, but I felt that Kreriov or Dej should have been the lynch yesterday until the whole doc thing came up (please refer to my large cases on them when I first replaced). Both of them essentially said my cases were crap and therefore didn't merit much of a response. I pursued Krer more and had things clarified a bit (that doesn't mean that I think he is town). Had maad not counterclaimed I would have still wanted one of them to swing.

I keep going back and forth on the scum vs. newb question with Krer. I think I would still be for his lynch today, but I need to do a reread of the lynch and some of our interactions to be sure.

[Kreriov]

Um, do you want to reconsider your post there SpyreX? Lets see, I say I suspect you because it seems to me you really didn't care which got lynched, just that one did. Your defense is I was willing to vote for either of them because one should have been scum? To everyone else, have you REALLY thought of the implications of a townie falsely claiming to be scum? SpyreX, as scum you would KNOW that neither of the two were scum, so OF COURSE you would be willing to vote for either. That's exactly the point. You voted and shifted your voted and kept going to whom it looked like it would be easier to lynch. You didn't seem to really be trying to sort anything else out. Basically, I think I see motive and reason for your actions, specifically that you are scum. I could be wrong, those are my thoughts though.

And sorry Camn, but, again, just stop now. I love how you just throw out OMAGUS as if people cannot read. If nothing else, the long and detailed grilling I have received from Baltar is ample evidence that I do not lightly place my vote or he would have mine now and with good reason. I vote for you for a reason and the reason is your first post in game stinks. Your entire post is designed to try to elicit sympathy and show empathy with the town and nothing else. Even your FOS is just weak. Lets see, FOS for wagon analyzing? Excuse me? On Day 2 there were exactly 3 concrete data points. The course of the vote on Empking, Empking's affiliation, and the fact that there was no night kill. What exactly am I supposed to analyze, tea leaves? And now you want try and cast Mufasa's idiotic action as some type of gambit instead of rank stupidity? The single biggest asset any townie has going for them is the simple truth. Mufasa wasted that asset and you try to praise him for it.

As for Baltar, well, isn't isn't it so nice of you to continue to try and be the arbiter from on high of who might be scummy or not. You mis-characterize and belittle people to try and make your arguments more powerful. You say things like 'both of them essentially said my cases were crap and there did not merit much of a response'. Again, um, did you miss the part where so many people are tired of the constant back and forth between us PRECISELY because I try answer every question, even ones I feel are designed to try and obfuscate others action, as completely as I can?

Just realize that I really am not writing any of this for you, because it is nor for you to decide. After all, really, you say I am scum or a new, and that is all? No, you do not get to decide that. You seem like a fairly smart guy, one who is well aware that once you state that there are only two choices, if not challenged, it gets into peoples subconscious and if you repeat it enough it almost becomes fact. That's ok though, because by just pointing this out people now know they have more than 2 choices. Just like my not being afraid to state my opinions and point out when you seem to be oblivious to them just makes them stand out all the more. Of course, this is not the first time you have done this, doubt it will be the last. Just do not get caught up in your own little world and fail to actually try to analyze actual facts.

[VP Baltar]

The way I feel about it Krer is that you are new or you are scum. That's my opinion and I will state it. Everyone else is free to form whatever opinion they like and I don't much care if they agree with me or not.


I will fully admit that you at least attempted to answer my questions on day 2, and that is a pro-town thing to do. I definitely don't want to get into that whole war of the words again. People can read it if they want; I think we both stated our opinions quite clearly. However, there was the initial posts from both you and dej that ignored a lot of what i said because you didn't agree with it. Those are what I was referencing.

Regarding your case on camn, do you think a player making one post in a game is a valid enough point to lynch them?

[hewitt]

Okay so I'm going to do my little analysis thing like I did for the last lynch so everybody knows where my head is at. Just to clarify this time, who I think is scum is the three most likely in my mind. I am not clearing anybody else from being scum and I have like five or six people who I had to weigh back and forth and decide but I'm picking the three most likely because that's what we have.

ON TL
Who I believe is town.

maadneet- IF, he is the doctor. Then obviously he is town. I don't know though that exchange was just really bizarre and confusing. Not to mention the fact that he was so flighty D1 and even D2 until counterclaiming. If he had not counterclaimed doctor and had mufasa not flipped vanilla townie then he would for sure be on my scum list.

dejkha- I don't know I just feel as if his intentions are good even though his slapstick arguments are annoying. I don't see any reason to believe that he's scum at this point.

Kreviov- I flipped back and forth on this one just like after D1. Both days if I had to pick a fourth scum it would be him. Really long posts but mostly filled with fluff. Here's the best example I can find of what I'm talking about...

Actually, I have answered this and it remains the same. I found Mufasa and Zrtife's votes to be suspicious, particularly Mufasa. I found Madneet and Zwets actions post lynch to be suspicious. That is the info. I continue to dislike your 'bungled' characterization. Why was it bungled? Simply because he turned out to be town? By that definition, sure. However, the first lynch in almost every game is a townie basically because the first lynch is a guess. From that lynch you gain hard facts. Specifically, the victims alignment. You also have voting records. You continue to belittle and dismiss all this information by continually hammering at me and dejkha. I don't mind that, actually, other than the fact that you seem to be ignoring others who, in my opinion, have done (or not done in the case of lurkers) suspicious things. It is almost like you attack me simply because I have actual posting history for you to dissect. THAT is just one reason why I say you are deflecting. I try to answer legit questions and try to bring up legit concerns about real actions and you continually dismiss them.

Read the second and third sentences of the paragraph, then read how he never follows up those...

Who I believe is scum.

Spyrex- Okay so I read the whole time he was in this game and I simply could not find a single post that I really found to be helpful in any way, shape, or form. I feel like he just slided by on D2 and his wishy-washiness on whether to lynch mufasa or maadneet without giving defining reason to either bothers me.

zwets- I agree with dejkha on this one actually for reasons he has stated. This doesn't feel like your typical game to me based on previous/current games going on right now with you and it bothers me, a lot.

OFF TL
Who I believe is town.

Ztife- I think he's pretty helpful and pretty insightful. I'm getting a good pro-town vibe from him and I can't really find any fault with thim.

VP- Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm well he's very helpful in my opinion. But he also kind of scares me. I feel like he's a little bit too all-knowing or something. Forms great opinions, great observations, I don't know though. I only have a strange gut feeling on this one but my head is telling me town.

ac1983- Little bit of back and forth on this one, definitely on the undecided list but kind of the lesser of the scummys I am thinking about right now. The constant oh I'm here but I'm not really posting content until someone drags it out of me bothers me.

Who I believe is scum.

camn- I'm sorry to say that you've carried over hohum's scumminess on with you because it's not really fair to judge on the player you've replaced but I simply cannot ignore the fact that he was so scummy in my opinion. You've done little to convince me otherwise and I do find it a little bothering that you're defending mufasa so much. I think you may be trying to start condemning those who lynched mufasa and are building up to it when I think it was a logical lynch considering the situation. My brain and my gut is telling me to not like you right now.

With all that said I'm going to...

Vote: Spyrex

For reasons stated.

[Kreriov]

Sorry to post again so soon, but I just can't get over Camn and now Baltar somehow think Mufasa false claiming to be doc was good or could have been good. At least Baltar says it debatable. It is debatable and should be debated. So here is my position. It was flat stupid for the following reasons:

It is day 2 and we had only lost one townie at that point. The chances of the doc getting night killed at random should Mufasa get lynched are 1 in 7. In fact, had Madneet not CCd and we had lynched some other townie thinking Mufasa really was the doc, the odds would probably be 1 in 6 the mafia get a power role given that we accept Baltar's surmise that lynching the 'doc' would be so obvious that the JK would protect him. Now lets factor in that it is day 2 and a night kill had already been avoided. The town is definitely ahead at this point. Even though we do not know who the doc protected or who the JK roleblocked night one, we can hope at some point that this info will come out. So, what is madneet to do when Mufasa false claims? Somehow divine that Mufasa is really trying to set himself up to be NKd? Or, knowing he is the doctor, reasonably assume that Mufasa is a scum trying to get off the hook for another day? I just do not see how anyone can think that Mufasa was trying some brilliant ploy and actually defend that position, but feel free to try. So far the best I have seen are statements that, well, I can see trying something like sometime, but in this case it probably wasn't such a good idea. AND THATS THE POINT. I personally think this was either Mufasa's selfish attempt to remain in the game or, perhaps, an attempt at revenge on the town because he was pissed off at being lynched. Does it really matter other than trying to figure out why in the hell Camn would want to put herself out there by backing such a stupid action?

[hewitt]

Well if camn believes that then she should defend it. Personally, I do not think it was smart on mufasa's part I do not believe he did it to save the town's doctor. How did his previous actions during that game suggest he was even pro-town? I think it was a selfish decision to attempt to remain in a game he obviously did not even want to be involved in.

[VP Baltar]

I agree that it was a stupid action for mufasa to falseclaim at that time. I was saying that there are times where it is a valid move (Albert B. Rampage seems to be the master of this move to catch scum).

However, I think camn was making more of an observation and it's not really worth chastising her over. Hewitt brings up a good point about camn's defense potentially being used to falsely attack people on the wagon...though pointing it out now makes it an invalid move for camn to make. Personally I don't think she's worth a vote at this point. She's not cleared by any means, but I think it would be best to find the scum who actually have a posting history in this game.

[SpyreX]

Um, do you want to reconsider your post there SpyreX? Lets see, I say I suspect you because it seems to me you really didn't care which got lynched, just that one did. Your defense is I was willing to vote for either of them because one should have been scum? To everyone else, have you REALLY thought of the implications of a townie falsely claiming to be scum? SpyreX, as scum you would KNOW that neither of the two were scum, so OF COURSE you would be willing to vote for either. That's exactly the point. You voted and shifted your voted and kept going to whom it looked like it would be easier to lynch. You didn't seem to really be trying to sort anything else out. Basically, I think I see motive and reason for your actions, specifically that you are scum. I could be wrong, those are my thoughts though.

...ok, lets take a look back at what happened.

Mufasa gets almost hung, doesn't claim, tries to hammer himself, fails, claims doc.

I unvote barring a CC. I then, because no CC was incoming, vote for Maadanet who was ALSO being a terrible power-lurker.

Maad then comes in and, get this, claims doc.

As both had been pushing up the wagon I looked and:

Haha, that was easy enough. Maad definitely didn't post anywhere else.

Between Mu's rationale shifts AND the fact he tried to power hammer HIMSELF as the damn doctor.

Vote: Musafa

Thats where its sticking for today.

Because, get this: in that situation

a vanilla town lying in an attempt at self-preservation

didn't enter into my thought process because it was retarded. Its an open setup, there is absolutely no reason to believe in a "claim/couterclaim" setup

BOTH

parties were actually town. One of them should have been scum - so, yes, it WAS an either or but not "I dont care who was lynched" - Mu had been scummier of the two (and in a sense I was right because he wasn't the damn doctor).

I can't believe I have to explain this. At least I'm only explaining it to you right... OHH GOD MY EYES

Spyrex- Okay so I read the whole time he was in this game and I simply could not find a single post that I really found to be helpful in any way, shape, or form. I feel like he just slided by on D2 and his wishy-washiness on whether to lynch mufasa or maadneet without giving defining reason to either bothers me.

See above. Its not rocket science nor my fault we had a VT decide to go kamikaze in a ball of failing glory.

I slid by day 2? Really? I have no words.

[hewitt]

Yeah, I do think you slid by D2 and I don't think you really contributed anything although you posted frequently.

[SpyreX]

... I need examples because as it sits I have no clue what you're talking about nor any way to discuss it in a meaningful manner.

@Dej:

How about that secret information. It amount to anything or we just gonna dream the impossible dream more.

[Kreriov]

Once again Baltar, you are asking a loaded question.

Regarding your case on camn, do you think a player making one post in a game is a valid enough point to lynch them?

For one, its not just one post. You sort of left out the part where it was the one post PLUS hohum's past actions. So the answer would be no. Second, a single vote when it will take 5 votes to lynch does not a lynch make. Or am I not allowed to move my vote now?

Anyway, I will agree it doesn't really matter whether Mufasa was trying some brilliant ploy or even if Camn believes he was trying to pull off some brilliant ploy. The reason I take issue with her 'observation' as you so easily dismiss it is because I believe she is using it along with her sympathy with the towns so called plight as an attempt to try and appear to be the helpful townie replacement.

Posting history is nice, but as a replacement yourself, you should realize you come with baggage. My question would be, why the hell did you vote for madneet when he CCd mufasa?

[hewitt]

That is exactly the point Spyrex, I can't find anything that was helpful.

[camn]

However, I think camn was making more of an observation and it's not really worth chastising her over. Hewitt brings up a good point about camn's defense potentially being used to falsely attack people on the wagon...though pointing it out now makes it an invalid move for camn to make. Personally I don't think she's worth a vote at this point. She's not cleared by any means, but I think it would be best to find the scum who actually have a posting history in this game.

Except that the wagon on Mefusa was just, IMO. Once couterclaimed, you had to assume he was scum.
He just should have never been counterclaimed. That is where the fail was.

But it isn't worth talking about. It iwas an observation. My attempt at improving the level of play around here.

Now, for grins:

I think it was a selfish decision to attempt to remain in a game he obviously did not even want to be involved in.

Logical? Why try and stay in a game you don't want to stay in?

Does it really matter other than trying to figure out why in the hell Camn would want to put herself out there by backing such a stupid action?

Because it wasn't stupid. It was brilliant. Once you understand the difference, you will begin to improve. a 100% of vanilla Nightkill > 1/4 chance of a PowerRole Nightkill. Luckily KMD is a good enough player to draw the kill.

+1 on Spyrex's call for Dej-info. YOu did seem like you had something to say yesterday!