/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)
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ekiM Mafia Scum
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ekiM Mafia Scum
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ekiM Mafia Scum
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ekiM Mafia Scum
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ekiM Mafia Scum
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Um, the "1 in 5 players in a 20 player game is probably scum" thing was a joke. The relevant part of that post was the vote. Serious reaching going on here.
Elvis saying scum wouldn't start RVS bandwagons on one another is a bit silly. Describing it as "pushing for their buddies lynch" is sillier.
Kmd, why'd you name me as a buddy to Elvis then not mention me ever again?
VP Baltar, why'd you wait for Xyl to vote me before voting me? You'd already seen the post that offended you so.
Claus, what are you smoking? RVS bandwagon vote with joke attached = problematic?
Xyl seems to be not contributing whatsoever but posting frequently and people seem happy to let him. Is it a town tell then?
unvote; vote: BridgesandBalloonsStrange behavior.-
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ekiM Mafia Scum
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ekiM Mafia Scum
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ekiM Mafia Scum
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ekiM Mafia Scum
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Got 13 pages to catch up. Addressing suspicions on me first.
My posts:
Answer to question, random vote.ekiM wrote:
I don't have any.Thesp wrote:ekiM, who's one of your scumbuddies?
You don't like random voting, Thesp?
vote: Elvis_Knits
Wanted vote for Xyl because:ekiM wrote:I am deeply concerned by the continued absence of inHimshallibe, Kmd4390, Ojanen, populartajo, and Shabba. I'd wager there's at least one scum amongst those five players.
unvote; Vote Xyltylxym.- He was actively non-participartory. At that point he had made six posts, none of which contained anything good. He ignored Charter's questions.
- I wanted to move out of the RVS.
Clarifications, questions, and a vote.ekiM wrote:Um, the "1 in 5 players in a 20 player game is probably scum" thing was a joke. The relevant part of that post was the vote. Serious reaching going on here.
Elvis saying scum wouldn't start RVS bandwagons on one another is a bit silly. Describing it as "pushing for their buddies lynch" is sillier.
Kmd, why'd you name me as a buddy to Elvis then not mention me ever again?
VP Baltar, why'd you wait for Xyl to vote me before voting me? You'd already seen the post that offended you so.
Claus, what are you smoking? RVS bandwagon vote with joke attached = problematic?
Xyl seems to be not contributing whatsoever but posting frequently and people seem happy to let him. Is it a town tell then?
unvote; vote: BridgesandBalloonsStrange behavior.
I voted for B&B because:
- "After reading the first post, I thought there were 4 mafia + (optional) traitor too. The fact that E_k didn't come to the same conclusion as me is weird." --> Would be a BIG misreading. Nonsense to say that reading correctly is weird/suspicious. Reaching?
- Not voting Elvis, his big suspect, in 100. Didn't see townie motivation.
- Voting in 102 after KMD prodding. Felt unnatural.
Response to Elvis's clarification.ekiM wrote:Hmm, that's stronger than I remembered. Still not very likely to lead to a lynch though, right?
... and that's it. Ask any further questions.
Responses to questions/comments aimed at me (excuse repetition):
If there's nothing I want to actually comment on, sure.Tajo wrote:I dont remember you joking very much in our games together. Do you usually joke with accusations?
It's an ironic expression of my frustration at the lack of material to work with at that point in the game. There were comic undertones, but it was not very humorous. Perhaps it'd have been better to describe it as "non-serious" or "not in earnest", rather than as "a joke". I doubt it made anyone laugh.VP Baltar wrote:
I'm a bit slow, explain what was funny about it.ekiM wrote:Um, the "1 in 5 players in a 20 player game is probably scum" thing was a joke.
Did you think I intended it to be taken in earnest?VP Baltar wrote:
I had done a reread before the post where I voted you. It stuck out to me on that reread.ekiM wrote:VP Baltar, why'd you wait for Xyl to vote me before voting me? You'd already seen the post that offended you so.
See above for my reasons.KMD wrote:ekiM-Here are his posts. 1, confirm. 2, some shit about tree stumps. 3, says he doesn't have any scumbuddies and random votes. 4, lurker callout. Wagers that there is a scum on the list. Wagons Xyl, who is not on the list. So basically, I don't like that he hadn't added anything when he called out lurkers or that he gave a list that he thought included scum and voted off the list without giving a better reason.
Do you think I intended my comment on the lurkers to be taken in earnest?Xyl wrote:I assumed Kmd was being a sarcastic prick. Which is weird because I'm usually quite skeptical of 'jokes' (see: ekiM). Hmm.
See above.Herodotus wrote:Saying that "at least one of these five players is scum" isn't very meaningful, though of course the odds suggest he's probably right. (For comparison, I think that with 4 scum among 20, a random selection of just three people has a 51% chance of containing scum.) Other than that, I haven't paid much attention to him until now.
After review in ISO:
His calling others out for lurking in 3 was premature, especially given that he wasn't megaposting himself.
"Strange behavior" is a poor reason for placing a vote. (Temporarily) unexplained votes are occasionally okay, but when you give a reason, you should be able to say why you think it is an indicator of scumminess. So, ekim, was BaB's strangeness scum-motivated or a scum-tell?
No, I was V/LA. Any actual questions, ask them.zu_Faul wrote:players who make a scummy thing and then disapp; ared completely should rather be persecuted. ekiM for example
No, I was V/LA.Elvis wrote:ekiM - some attention on him led to recent lurking
No, I am not.B&B wrote:hen I left EkIm w/o a * or crossed out because he is VLA recently, but he is sort of a lurker
Do you think I intended my comment on the lurkers to be taken in earnest? Please enumerate why you would vote for me.Claus wrote:Vote: Yos - I would also be happy voting Thesp or Ekim
Do you mean "stop. this isn't about arguing theory, this is about the motivation you had to argue the theory in the first place."? What would it mean for this to "be a valid scumtell"? Can you rephrase your question?Ojanen wrote:@zu Faul, ekiM, alexhans:
Do you think the paragraph under the last quote in roflcopter 298 is a valid scumtell?
I was only active for the early part of the game, and I was not lurking.B&B wrote:Ekim:
Oh, I meant to take him off the lurker list. . . Well, I shouldn't have meant to do that, becuase after I looked at him, he's lurker scum.
In post 82 he silently jumps on the biggest bandwagon (Xyl and fifth vote)
In post 142 he hops off of Xyl after I become the biggest wagon
I think he is lurkerscum.
Are we anywhere near deadline? I think it's only been about a week since the game started... Anyway, you will hear more from me. I was V/LA.zu_Faul wrote:PS: While I am against waiting on a lynch just because we can, I'd love to hear more from iamusername, serialclergyman and especially ekiM before deadline.
You elide the timeframe. For the Xyl vote most people's contribution to the game was posting things like "I hate cats".Claus wrote:Ekim jumped on the two major bandwagons (5th and 6th vote), without a case and without commenting on anything else in the game.
It is untrue that I commented on nothing else in the game. The post were I voted B&B contains at least five comments on the game. They may not be brilliantly insightful, but they are there. If you mean to say my comments weren't especially deep, say that. Don't lie and say I commented on nothing else.
You assume I voted without reason when, if I recall correctly, you earlier said you have no problem with people temporarily withholding their vote reasons. Why the change of heart in this case?
No, I have been V/LA for most of the game. For the period where I was around, I was at least as active as the median player. I have not lurked.Claus wrote:The reasons for finding Ekim scummy are pretty straightforward. Ikem has lurked during most of the game, and still, managed to hop on the two biggest wagons: Xyl, on post 82 (5th vote), and BaB, on post 142 (6th vote).
I didn't follow up because I was V/LA. Yes, you're right. Does this have a point?Claus wrote:On his Xyl vote, he also waved his hand at 5 players, calling them lurking scum. Which he cleared as a joke. On his BaB vote (his next vote after the Xyl vote), he makes a bunch of light questions to players, and doesn't follow up in any of those questions (although he does go V/LA 24 hours later).
A bunch of people have pushed on me, including yourself. Are you arguing that you, Xyl, and VP Baltar are scum going for a righteous mislynch?Claus wrote:Hopping on big bandwagons without contributing to the game is a pretty textbook scumtell, and the fact that very few people are pushing Ekim for it is another signal of scummyness: If he was town, I can see scum making a case on him early and go for a "righteous myslinch".
Tajo, Claus, Xyl, VP, Herodotus, Zu_Faul, KMD, B&B have all expressed serious suspicion of me. That's 8/19 other players, almost half. How many players should be pushing me, exactly?
:badposting:
The case on me is crap, though.Claus wrote:It is in your meta. Your scum meta. Specially when you don't really take your lurker vote seriously, and avoid discussing the game like you were doing earlier today. E.g. I think Town-Yos would be all over Ekim by now.
Also, it mostly amounts to "ekiM is lurking", even though that's untrue. So you're saying that Yos should not be voting for a lurker, he should be pursuing someone else some people think is a lurker but actually isn't. What?
Fair dos.Elvis wrote:Ekim - I was mildly suspicious of him because he seemed to disappear once people voted him. I didn't think their reasons were that strong, but the fact that he sort of disappeared made me raise my eyebrows a bit. Now it looks like he was VLA, so I can't blame him for that. It is all basically null to me, but if you or other people see something you don't like, I think it is absolutely worth it to question him, especially since I don't have a read one way or the other.
Question, who said this: "I love it when people play with their cards open in the table. Of course, giving reasons would be even better, but I settle for knowing who each player suspects, whatever the reason."?Claus wrote:So you don't mind that Ekim jumped without reasons/pushing on the Xyl and BB wagon?
I'm not a lurker.B&B wrote:oh yeah, I forgot when I looked at the lurkers, I found Ekim was scum
Why not?Herodotus wrote:The fact that he hopped on both of the biggest wagons with virtually no explanation is not pro-town.
See above.Shabba wrote:Regarding Ekim: I agree with you. In 182, Ekim pointed the finger at 5 ppl, then voted someone else. I think that's scummy. If it isn't, maybe he can explain why now that he's back from V/LA.
You think Claus's "not enough people are pushing ekiM" line of thought is valid? Could you explain it to me?Thesp wrote:I fully support the Ekim pressure, for this and other reasons.
Which other reasons?
Well, I've wrapped up my responses, which has taken far too long. I'm going to sunbathe and read Snow Crash. I'll be back to comment on the rest of the game later.zu_Faul wrote:I've already stated I am suspicious of ekiM. If he does not return with some pro-townish posts, I'll vote him (note: this has nothing to do with the point in time when he returns, but with the content of hi posts when he returns).-
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ekiM Mafia Scum
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ekiM Mafia Scum
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I'll look at that when I re-read and respond then, should be soon.Ojanen wrote:
I meant the whole thing from that sentence you quoted until the end of that post. Basically that whole idea, the same thing Yos is stating as the major reason for his vote. I meant by my question whether you find BaB to be scummy because of that point.ekiM wrote:
Do you mean "stop. this isn't about arguing theory, this is about the motivation you had to argue the theory in the first place."? What would it mean for this to "be a valid scumtell"? Can you rephrase your questionOjanen wrote:@zu Faul, ekiM, alexhans:
Do you think the paragraph under the last quote in roflcopter 298 is a valid scumtell?
I'll comment more in a few hours.-
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ekiM Mafia Scum
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Page 7
Charter asks B&B to address the votes on him. B&B says there is no case. Says Elvis is ignoring the case on her. The interesting here is how B&B avoids the points against him. Why did he hold back his vote in 100? Why did he put it on in 102 after a prod? He doesn't answer these concerns. He doesn't even acknowledge them. He acts like the only part is where he says "The Xyl wagon will continue without me". He's ignoring legitimate questions about his play.
Charter says as much, B&B waffles.
Claus in 157 makes a case on Elvis that makes no sense to me. Bandwagoning on someone is fine. Calling it malicious is absurd. Elvis's attack on KMD simply isn't OMGUS.
He means Chosen. You were in that, too.Tajo wrote:Claus, I actually have a different meta from Mikescum. Can you point me to that game?
Tajo says Elvis wagon is bad, asks if anyone will join him on it. Votes me. What?
Xyl says B&B doesn't feel scum, calls out lurkers. Xyl is playing in a minimalist style. Is this usual? Is it acceptable?
164--166 is hardcore :goodposting: from Elvis.
Herodotus against B&B wagon, Thesp for.
Page 8
Yos 175 continues voting Shabba, says the wagon he'd join would be the Xyl one. Nobody was voting Xyl. Not paying attention? Why?
zu_Faul 184 is going with the flow. Says his vote for Elvis is in the right place, and yet he's less certain of Elvis-scum. Also he likes all current bandwagons. This is no contribution at all.
B&B 187--188 still dismissing the case on him. Not good.
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Ojanen's 208 is good. Elvis wagon bad, B&B wagon good. I agree.
... 209 Xyl votes Ojanen without reasons.
B&B STILL just dismissing the wagon.
zu_Faul still saying not much and dismissing the B&B wagon.
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B&B 235, 237, 245 are just.... awful. Pretty sure he's scum. Worst thing: trying to discredit the Xyl+B&B not scum together line. What is the townie motivation?
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zu_Faul still not saying much, defending B&B quietly.
Shabba is inexperienced town.
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zu_Faul 280 is horrific. Says spotlight should be on players doing scummy things. Names Shabba as inexperienced not scum. Says Xyl is moving too much. Says Herod shouldn't lurker hunt. Says I'm scummy for being V/LA. Says B&B initial accusations were not bad. And yet we shouldn't be pressuring B&B? What? Why on Earth not?
B&B gets pressed for a claim at L-2. I thought this was premature but I see people were holding back their votes through caution.
IAUN comes back after being prodded. I actually forgot he was in the game. Also SerialClergyMan. V/LA? Or hardcore lurking.
IAUN supports B&B wagon and claim. No idea why he votes roflcopter.
294--297, B&B claims vanilla townie. Says he still doesn't understand the case on him. It was laid out pretty clearly. Claus asked him for top five scummy players, he responded with: "there's probably at least one or two scum who are subtly joining the wagon on me. I'm not sure about which person it is, I need to think about this.", which is spectacularly useless.
Now, he asks for time to defend himself and name scummy players before being hammered. OK. 28th of August?! No.
I was pretty convinced B&B was scum, vanilla claim does nothing to dissuade my vote.
KMD unvotes because B&B claimed vanilla. Major red flag here. What claim wouldn't you unvote for, then? Pushes the next biggest wagon, Elvis. Bad bad bad.
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B&B goes on a lurker hunt. What the heck? You should be defending yourself or naming a scumlist. This is terrible.
Ojanen unvotes too. Seems to be asking for time though, not calling B&B town. Not so bad.
Yos votes B&B. Good.
B&B says Yos is scummy for voting him. No.
Claus says he will not take the time to try and defuse the wagon on B&B because B&B is not helping himself. Ask for a list of scummy players. Scatterguns "Vote: Yos - I would also be happy voting Thesp or Ekim. I would not mind a Xyl, E_K or SerialClergy wagon.". This is precisely an attempt to defuse the B&B wagon, and the targets don't make any sense to me. Bad.
Elvis is on B&B. Good.
IAUN on B&B good.
Baltar avoids commenting on much.
It was said that Xyl + B&B scum together is unlikely. Scum-B&B has much more motivation to undermine this than town-B&B does, so I do think it's a scumtell, yes.Ojanen wrote:Do you think the paragraph under the last quote in roflcopter 298 is a valid scumtell?
B&B is terrible all over this page.
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B&B makes another lurker list. I really don't know what to say at this point. This guy needs to die.
363 zu_faul says stalling the game is a bad idea. He also says his usual scum hunting tactic is to slow down the game. The fuck?
Thesp says Herod is a B&B prtner, Herod wants to lynch Thesp?
Herod says a wagon on me would be good. Well, if it can defuse the B&B wagon...
Yes.Elvis wrote: As scum, have you ever claimed vanilla?
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Claus is very disappointed in B&B, still trying to start other wagons.
B&B is finally actually posting some of what he was asked for days ago. Sadly it's no good.
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wagon on me bad, b&b defence bad. lynch b&b. Mind is kind of frazzled so I'm stopping now and posting this monstrosity of a post un-edited. more later.
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TL;DR: B&B is scum and needs to die. zu_faul has posted way too little and weak and defended B&B. Attempts to deflect the B&B wagon now are terrible (KMD, Claus, Xyl(?), Herod). I find it funny how several people can suddenly get the idea together to vote me _before_ I have time to respond to everything that was said.
Well, that took a while. I'm pretty exhausted, website is still loading damnably slowly. It will probably take me a couple more re-reads to be totally up to speed but I am going to be all over this game, it's very interesting. Latersss.-
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ekiM Mafia Scum
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So you think I'm a dolt? You've never played with me before...Xylthixlm wrote:
Yes.ekiM wrote:
Do you think I intended my comment on the lurkers to be taken in earnest?Xyl wrote:I assumed Kmd was being a sarcastic prick. Which is weird because I'm usually quite skeptical of 'jokes' (see: ekiM). Hmm.-
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ekiM Mafia Scum
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How?zu_Faul wrote:
Gogogo team misrepresentation.ekiM wrote:363 zu_faul says stalling the game is a bad idea. He also says his usual scum hunting tactic is to slow down the game. The fuck?
Jokes like "my cat made me do it"? Or?Xylthixlm wrote:
As I said, I am usually quite skeptical of 'jokes'.ekiM wrote:
So you think I'm a dolt? You've never played with me before...Xylthixlm wrote:
Yes.ekiM wrote:
Do you think I intended my comment on the lurkers to be taken in earnest?Xyl wrote:I assumed Kmd was being a sarcastic prick. Which is weird because I'm usually quite skeptical of 'jokes' (see: ekiM). Hmm.
"Deeply concerned" is pretty obviously sarcasm. I don't understand how I could be earnestly putting forward the claim that there's likely some scum in a group of 5.VP Baltar wrote:Frankly, yes I did. I saw very little to indicate that you were being sarcastic or something like that.
People asked me the same things again and again. I didn't want to ignore them, so the answers were repetitive.VP Baltar wrote:While ekiM continues to underwhelm me (his 'Do you think I was serious? x 50' post made me want to gouge my eyes out)
I don't know what "in finding that agreed thought a scumtell" means. Clarify?Ojanen wrote:I wanna reread some when I have time later today (several of my tentative scumreads just flipped town), but I note one thing that feels insincere to me.
I asked ekiM yesterday whether he thought the thing about BaB saying he didn't like the reasoning behind Elvis' thought process about BaB+Xyl being mafia together was scummy.
(I referred to roflcopter 298 in the question.
The response I got was
Why he was among the people I asked it from?ekiM wrote:It was said that Xyl + B&B scum together is unlikely. Scum-B&B has much more motivation to undermine this than town-B&B does, so I do think it's a scumtell, yes.
His own opinion at the time was:
Agreeing with BaB that Elvis' idea was silly, but later not batting an eyelash in finding that agreed thought a scumtell feels scummy to me.ekiM wrote:Elvis saying scum wouldn't start RVS bandwagons on one another is a bit silly. Describing it as "pushing for their buddies lynch" is sillier.
I know the difference is in who has what motivation to say it, but the thought process still just feels alien to honest scumhunting.
I also don't know what your problem with what I said it. I thought Elvis was overblowing what she was saying. I agreed that it was reasonable to question the motivation for B&B devoting so much effort to attacking a line of thought that only harmed him if he was scum. And?
You've said nothing at all here on Day 1, though... that's more than just "less attention", that's active neglect.SerialClergyman wrote:Y'ello.
My apologies for my lack of input into the game. You'll notice that of my 4 active games, 2 are getting a lot of attention and 2 aren't. That's a direct result of how late the game has gone on - I naturally post more towards the end of a game than in the early stages and it's just been massively exacerbated by an extremely important RL issue
How so?Elvis wrote:This is a good point... ekiM's answers don't match up here.
How is it good?Yosarian2 wrote:Also, I would agree that eikM looks pretty scummy at the moment. I thought he was scummy yesterday, and Ojanen's argument is good as well; I'd definatly like to hear a response from him ASAP.
I'm not being facetious here, I don't actually understand what point he is making. Why is it insincere to agree an argument isn't very strong but still be skeptical of the motivation of someone trying to undermine it?
You said "...why are you trying to argue agains the "bridges and xyl probably aren't scum together" argument here? I don't understand what you'e trying to accomplish, bridges.". I agree with that. I also don't think what Elvis said was particularly strong.
Good question. With 5 flips I think I need a full re-read which might take a while. I've answered questions directed at me, so comments, analysis, and vote --> later.VP Baltar wrote:ekiM, what are your feelings on who the scum are today given that most of your scumhunting yesterday centered around who was trying to "deflect the B&B wagon"?
It would be nice if the memory thing didn't keep stopping me view pages.-
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ekiM Mafia Scum
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I don't see how it could be interpreted seriously. It's obvious that 1 scum out of 5 isn't better than average, and I didn't vote for any of them. I don't see the hypothetical train of thought where someone makes that post intending the first paragraph to be seen as serious scumhunting. Repeating "I'M SKEPTICAL OF JOKES!!!" doesn't explain how you impute scummy motives to that post.Xylthixlm wrote:
Jokes that have a possibility of being interpreted seriously. I won't take someone's word that they "only meant it as a joke".ekiM wrote:Jokes like "my cat made me do it"? Or?
I first said your idea was silly, then when I was asked if it's a scumtell to disagree with an idea that only damages you as scum I said yes. That's because it is. It's irrelevant what the idea is.elvis_knits wrote:First quote you say my idea is silly (my idea that Xyl and BaB can't be scum together). This is similar to how BaB felt about my idea.
Second quote you say that BaB's dislike of my statement is a scumtell. Which seems strange since you had already agreed with BaB and called my idea silly.
I would expect that if you thought my idea was silly, you wouldn't see BaB's disagreement with me as a scum tell. You would see BaB's disagreement with me as prefectly natural, since it is similar to how you think.
See, first you said my idea was silly, and then when BaB disagreed with my idea you used it as a reason to vote him. It seems like a contradiction.
Patience.Elvis wrote:ekiM -- Who do you think is scum? I have no idea who you are suspicious of.
Awesome, another sane person. Am I meant to warn you off buddying up to me now?iamausername wrote:Everyone who can't see how ekiM's "one of these five is scum" post is obviously not serious, does it help if I point out that in that same post, he says he is "deeply concerned" about these five players lurkingless than 24 hours into the game?
. . .
I don't think it's contradictory for ekiM to disagree with the reasons for finding Xyl and BaB to be unlikely scum together, but still find it scummy for BaB to attack the idea that he is not scum with Xyl.
He already addressed it in post 553 which you quoted from. See above.elvis_knits wrote:
No, your point was valid, but I'm not sure that is the whole reason people are suspicious of him. As I pointed out, I am not suspicious of him for the point you defended against. So, basically, I find it strange for you to defend him on the much lesser charge, while ignoring any of the other points against him. It sort of suggests that you think he's not scum because of that one argument, while from my POV, the issue is much bigger than just the point you defended against. Reminds me of this: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... om_Fallacyiamausername wrote:Do you think my defence of ekiM was invalid?
What do you think of my argument against ekiM? Post 543 is most of it I think.
OK.Zu_Faul wrote:It is easy. "Stalling" means waiting for a lynch just because deadline has not run out yet. What I do to scum hunt is jsut slowing down the wagon. Those are two strictly different things.a
Do you think making "terrible points" is scummy? Why?Zu_Faul wrote:Scum are SerialClergyman and ekiM. ekiM makes terrible points now to compensate for his lack of making points yesterday.
Shrug, I was pretty sure B&B was scum and not lynching him post-claim would've been a big mistake. So I did my catchup from that perspective.Ojanen wrote:So, been meaning to answer Mike for a while.
His catch up post (iso 11) feels somehow overly confidently anti-bridges to me
There's no contradiction.Ojanen wrote:Feels like slinging whatever sticks from other people's arguments, which is accentuated by the fact that I feel like I did catch him with a contradiction in thought process earlier.
Sigh. A scum tell is an action that a scum player is more likely to take than a town player in the same situation.Ojanen wrote:Mike, you asked for clarification from me, I think elvis already pretty much gave it.
Nope, nope. BaB wasn't somehow devoting himself to a huge effort to attack that line. He was getting attacked for why he mentioned it in the first place, and then he was defending and explaining his thoughts.ekiM wrote:I also don't know what your problem with what I said it. I thought Elvis was overblowing what she was saying. I agreed that it was reasonable to question the motivation for B&B devoting so much effort to attacking a line of thought that only harmed him if he was scum. And?
Considering your similar minded early spontaneous comment ("Elvis saying scum wouldn't start RVS bandwagons on one another is a bit silly. Describing it as "pushing for their buddies lynch" is sillier.") it's just hard for me to see this suspicion as sincere from you.
Same thing is highlighted also here:
ekiM wrote:Page 10
B&B 235, 237, 245 are just.... awful. Pretty sure he's scum. Worst thing: trying to discredit the Xyl+B&B not scum together line. What is the townie motivation?
You asked me if [trying to undermine a line of thought that only damages you if you are scum] is a scumtell. A scum player is much more motivated to do so than a town player, so it is a scum tell.
It's irrelevant what I thought of the original line of thought.
I posted the reasons for my vote at the top of 463. I didn't post them when I made the vote because I wanted to know what B&B would defend against if voted without a reason; what he considered scummy about his own actions. Then I went V/LA.Ojanen wrote:ekiM, was there a specific reason for you to not post reasoning on why you originally voted Bridges?
People don't like having questions ignored so I searched for my name and answered everything, just to be sure.Ojanen wrote:When he's out of V/LA, the answering of the same questions to different people 50 times seems unnecessary, don't understand the motivation.
What's the motivation for this complaint?
You have my sympathy.Ojanen wrote:I'm not fully caught up and need to answer Yos and inspect several people, but don't have the time right now.-
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What's the motivation for this question?SerialClergyman wrote:Xyl - if you had to confirm a couple of players as town, who would you choose?
So you no longer think he's pro-town because he voted you?Zu_Faul wrote:I had a pro-town read on iamusername before his voting. Going to overthink this, as it was weird (see above).-
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Kmd4390 wrote:
Um. Wow. Just wow. My argument was "scum never claim vanilla"? Really?!? Could have sworn I used specifics from the setup of this game like the fact that several of the same power role may exist, so a counterclaim wouldn't mean one is scum, and scum would have been dumb to claim vanilla when facing a Day 1 lynch. The only exception is if someone bussed so hard that the lynch had to happen for that person to gain town points. This is why Bridge was so obvtown after he claimed vanilla.Yosarian2 wrote: That was the only reason KMD gave at the time, and that was the reason he defended for the rest of day 1 (with fairly absurd and easily disprovable statements he kept repeating, like "scum never claim vanilla" and such.)
You switched your vote to him and he soon after claimed vanilla. You unvoted. What claim wouldKmd4390 wrote:
I unvoted because I was pretty sure he was town.ekiM wrote:Vote: KMD
KMD, did you think there was any chance of the BAB wagon derailing yesterday? If not, why did you unvote?nothave caused you to unvote?
Did you think there was any chance of the BAB wagon derailing?
If you were sure he was town, shouldn't you have been arguing pretty hard for people to also unvote him? I count two relevant posts after you unvoted.-
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I looked back at Yos' post again and it was actually a "TL;DR" summary for Xyl. Here it is:SerialClergyman wrote:Do you see something disengenuous in only putting forward one part of the reasons someone is voting you irregardless of whether it was the inital reason or not?
"TL;DR. B&B voted me because I think you're not his scumbuddy, which, again, probably means he's scum and you're town. He also generally continued to act like a scum trapped in a corner while not actually responding to any of the points made against him."
This is Yos' interpretation. He wasn't claiming to be objective, so he was not lacking in candor. I can see why BAB felt Yos was being unfair, but I don't think Yos was being dishonest. His view was that BAB primarily or only voted for reason X. It was also his view that BAB was acting like trapped scum. He said what his views were. Shrug.
Use 'regardless', not 'irregardless'.
zu_Faul wrote:I said "(see above)". If you had read above that, you would have seen what I found strange about the way he voted. It was that he said he'd like to vote me, someone else also found me scummy, and THEN he voted me, without me making a post in the meantime. So what changed his opinion?
So he was too afraid to vote you until one other person, who is under heavy suspicion, also voiced some suspicion of you? That's your theory?zu_Faul wrote:First accusing me. Then voting me, without me making a post in the mean time? Why not vote me in the first post? It seems like you only waited for some reassurance (which you got). Seems like a scum move to me.
elvis_knits wrote:
NO. This is horrible and lazy. You can't even tell me anyone you are suspicious of? Seriously??ekiM wrote:
Patience.Elvis wrote:ekiM -- Who do you think is scum? I have no idea who you are suspicious of.
You are just lucky that serialclergyman is so scummy...zu_Faul wrote:Posts like what you just did are what I meant with "terrible posts". You jump at shadows (like just now, you accuse me of OMGUS, when I explain the reason for my "suspicion" in the same post) (and don't you dare say that there was not an implicit accusation in your question)(and you already did it yesterday), and, like e_k just said, you try to not have an opinion.-
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alexhans/PookyTheMagicalBear- Has done nothing whatsoever so far this game. Whoops.
charter- I liked his action yesterday. I think his questions were good and he seemed to be trying to genuinely figure things out. He was very focussed on BAB, hmm. He attacked zu_Faul for defending BAB, which seems more likely from someone unaware of BAB's alignment.
ekiM- I dunno about this guy, he attached a non-serious comment to a RVS-ending BW vote. Why would anyone but scum do that? He also thinks scumtells should mostly be about motivations. What's the motivation for thinking that?
He also seems to be really behind on this game. Yesterday he seemed pretty sure BAB was scum, so why can't he instantly re-adjust and re-evaluate a 25 page game within a couple of days of the thread re-opening for day 2? Shouldn't take more than twenty minutes of thinking, right? It's not like anyone else has been less than hyperactive today.
If he doesn't explain his thoughts on other players soon, I might have to vote for him.
elvis_knits- Headstrong town, probably.
iamausername- This guy is definitely talking a lot of sense.
Kmd4390- Yeah, I don't like that unvote yesterday. If you unvote for vanilla, does that mean you lynch investigative roles? I don't get it.
If you're sure someone is townie, you should be working your ass off to derail their wagon. He... didn't. Of course if he's scum and unvoted then he's off the wagon when a townie was lynched.
Ojanen- I'm nonplussed by her attacks on me, but she feels like she's trying.
populartajo- Hasn't actually said much this game. Doing his old "I'll do it tomorrow" routine. I don't really know what he thinks, most of his substantive posts have been catchups.
roflcopter- town?
SerialClergyman- I can live with his lurking yesterday. I don't really like the wallposts, I didn't get too much out of them. Too early to call, but he's not hitting my badzones.
Thesp- Kind of sitting in the background most of yesterday I feel, but always making good posts. What does he think right now?
VP Baltar- His fixation with me yesterday while I was V/LA seemed like a major cop-out. He didn't comment much on BAB wagon until right at the end.
Xylthixlm- zwet alt? I don't like the huge number of one liners that don't really say anything. Got off the BAB wagon but didn't try and derail it. What does that achieve?
Yosarian2- Dunno yet, but these wall post arguments mostly seem quite pointless.
zu_Faul- Painfully enough, I think this guy is a townie. Scum usually make better arguments.
Suspect
KMD
VP Baltar
Xyl
Need to participate more
Pooky
Tajo
Thesp-
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I'm not accusing him. I'm wondering why some people (you, Ojanen, Vp Baltar, Zu, ...) have major rabies over not knowing whom I suspect, and yet no interest whatsoever in several other players in the same situation.elvis_knits wrote:
I wonder why you accused people of not accusing Pooky rather than just accusing pooky yourself.ekiM wrote:I wonder why nobody is bothered that they don't know what PookyTheMagicalBear's suspicions are?-
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OK, then! Glad we straightened that out.zu_Faul wrote:
I reread. Apparently, his vote was just a pressure vote. I seem to have confused his post with SerialClergyman's or something. I am sorry.ekiM wrote:zu_Faul wrote:I said "(see above)". If you had read above that, you would have seen what I found strange about the way he voted. It was that he said he'd like to vote me, someone else also found me scummy, and THEN he voted me, without me making a post in the meantime. So what changed his opinion?
So he was too afraid to vote you until one other person, who is under heavy suspicion, also voiced some suspicion of you? That's your theory?zu_Faul wrote:First accusing me. Then voting me, without me making a post in the mean time? Why not vote me in the first post? It seems like you only waited for some reassurance (which you got). Seems like a scum move to me.
Pro-town read on iamusername restored, obv.
It's a tiny violin. Possibly the smallest in the world.Zu wrote:I don't get what you want to say with the picture.-
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Pooky hasn't made a single contribution so far. This doesn't bother you at all. Him making you laugh isn't really a mitigating factor.Elvis wrote:Pooky replaced in overnight. He hasn't made great contributions yet, but I tend to give him a little more leeway than someone who has been in the game from the beginning and still given nothing/very little. Plus, he made me laugh when he poked at kmd's "solid logic."
Yet over here, in the blue corner, you are FILLED WITH RAGE that you don't know whom I suspect, a couple of days after the thread re-opened.
Who are Pooky's main suspects?Elvis wrote:ekiM, who are the "several other players in the same situation"?
Who are Tajo's main suspects?
Who are Thesp's main suspects?
(By the way, you might want to read post 622.)
No, but it does make you a hypocrite to be extremely animated about not knowing my suspicons when you've given no indication that you care at all that other people are exactly the same. Right?Elvis wrote:Also, whining that other people have made the same scummy moves as you, does not make me think you're any less scummy.
It's playing just for you! And Elvis. Obv.zu_Faul wrote:
But what does itekiM wrote:
It's a tiny violin. Possibly the smallest in the world.Zu wrote:I don't get what you want to say with the picture.mean.-
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It annoys me that she was so deeply concerned over what my suspicions were when she clearly didn't know what yours were, and didn't care.populartajo wrote:
Mike, what is the point of this post? You just posted that Elvis was prob headstrong town so why are you blaming her for something that I am supposedly doing?ekiM wrote:
LOL! How can you not get this? I am asking if YOU know who they suspect. You say you do, but you can't take three seconds to type who that is? How strange!elvis_knits wrote:And if you want to know who tajo and thesp suspect, feel free to iso them. I am not doing your homework for you.
The point is you've QUITE CLEARLY just gone back and looked at their one substantive post from today and dredged whatever you can find from that. It's incredibly obvious. You DID NOT know what their suspicions were when I asked you. So get off MY jock about taking two days to re-read a 25 page thread and decide who is suspicious. Thanks!elvis_knits wrote:
You are seriously getting obnoxious.ekiM wrote:
LOL! How can you not get this? I am asking if YOU know who they suspect. You say you do, but you can't take three seconds to type who that is? How strange!elvis_knits wrote:And if you want to know who tajo and thesp suspect, feel free to iso them. I am not doing your homework for you.
Tajo seems to suspect kmd most. Some suspicion on Yos, serial. Thinks Xyl is strange. Thinks rofl and me are prob town. Likes Ojanen.
Thesp seems to be suspicious of VP, Serial, ekim. He thinks both me and kmd are town.
WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THAT?-
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Suuure.populartajo wrote:
Can you expand your reads on these players? I think I get the kmd case but what about xyl and baltar? Also lol tiniest violin.Mike wrote:Suspect
KMD
VP Baltar
Xyl
First of all, both of them jumped all over me for saying "1 out of 5 people is probably scum", and I have serious trouble understanding why they made such a big deal of it. I've yet to see any explanation for how a scum player would be more motivated to post that than a town player.
VP especially left his vote on me for all of Day 1 while I was conveniently V/LA, meaning he didn't have to commit himself to much else. Read him in iso and he really doesn't commit to much at all textually.
In VP's arguments with iamausername, VP comes out looking bad to me. Read them.
Xyl seems to be sitting back and making random comments and flicking his vote around arbitrarily. His thought process is opaque to me, and I'm not sure why that should be so.
Maybe there was more that I can't remember off the top of my head. Oh, can I say 'gut'? Gut!-
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Hey, I didn't say I was good at this game.
Why did you park your vote on me for the entire day yesterday? "I'm happy with my vote until ekiM answers my questions" while I'm V/LA accomplishes... what? Avoiding accountability for being involved in wagons?
And I'm still yet to see someone explain to me what that "initial pressure" was motivated by.-
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No, but I would expect that you would see something more scummy in a whole day than "he said 1 in 5 people are scum". I don't see what it accomplishes to keep your vote where it isn't doing anything when you could be commiting to something and pressuring your suspects.VP Baltar wrote:So when someone declares V/LA a player should immediately remove their vote because there is clearly no purpose of it being there?
What did keeping your vote on me while I was away accomplish?
Asking questions isn't exactly committing yourself to anything.VP Baltar wrote:Also, I like how you are trying to paint me in broad strokes as someone who just voted you and went silent yesterday even though I commented on most of the current events and was actively questioning several players (iamausername, Herodotus were amongst the fore). Since you spent so much time reading my iso, I would have thought this would stick out to you.
Still waiting. Especially good would be explaining how saying "1 of 5 lurkers is scum" in the RVS is more vote-worthy than anything else you saw all day.ekiM wrote:And I'm still yet to see someone explain to me what that "initial pressure" was motivated by.-
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So, I was in a bad mood on Thursday. Sorry for being a dick.
Also sorry for upcoming megaposting.
I've not said you didn't comment on anything. That's a strawman that you've put up then repeatedly eviscerated. Well done.VP Baltar wrote:
To let you know I found your comment seriously scummy. It clearly worked since you've taken so much offense to it. Also, while you were gone were some of my largest posts of the day. How does that fit with your not commenting on stuff argument?ekiM wrote:What did keeping your vote on me while I was away accomplish?
What I have said was that you didn't commit to very much. Especially in terms of your own suspicions and your feelings on the bandwagons of the day. And your vote, of course.
Let's look at this in detail, then. Everything you said about iamausername, all of Day 1:VP Baltar wrote:
I think my suspicions were plenty clear from the types of questions I was asking. Should have also been clear when I said I'd eat a whole hat if iamausername is not scum. Doesn't that impress you?Asking questions isn't exactly committing yourself to anything.
VP Baltar 288 wrote:Bridges is a reasonable enough wagon for D1, though I would hope we can put the brakes on a little bit until some of the more background players (ekiM, iamausername, SerialClergyman, etc) weigh in and answer some questions.VP Baltar 330 wrote:Also, if iamausername is not scum I'll eat my hat (see photo).VP Baltar wrote:
Possibly, but BnB's alignment needs to be known before it's worth speculating on that. His vote on rofl after stating the scumminess of BnB was weird, and now the quick switchback at very mild questioning is strange enough for me to think he is potential scum.Xylthixlm wrote:
Do you think iamausername is bussing?VP Baltar wrote:
ekiM remains scummy to me until he comes back and provides some answers to the questions I put. I think BnB is a decent lynch, which also has the potential to provide some information. zu_Faul and Shabba have shown minor tinges of scumminess, but I wouldn't say I have a great read on either as yet.Xyl wrote:Who else is scummy?VP Baltar wrote:
I'm comfortable with my ekiM vote until he addresses the points made against him.BnB wrote:I'm confused why he isn't voting iamusername if he said that
Then in your last catch up post (490) you don't even mention iam.VP Baltar wrote:
Just because you didn't actually vote doesn't mean you weren't saying you were going to. In fact, you spent most of the post building up to it and then dropped the rofl vote. Now, maybe you were indeed waiting for a claim before voting or maybe you were just hesitant about looking scummy so close to the hammer. I think that is where I am interpreting your rofl vote differently. I mean, if what you are saying is true, why spend so much time stating your intent to vote BnB? Why wouldn't you condense it down and say something like 'I support the BnB wagon, but I think we need to hear a claim first'? Seems to me like you were telegraphing your punches.iamausername wrote:It's not a 'switchback', since I wasn't voting BaB before
You said directly that iamausername was scum, without giving any reasons. And you didn't vote for him. You can easily give this up later if you feel like it.
When you give a reason, the only thing you seem to have is that he was supported a BAB claim without voting for him immediately, which seems utterly innocuous to me. Supporting a claim is obviously support the wagon/lynch, too.
Here's the interesting bit:
So your main suspects were myself, for making a facetious post, and iamausername for supporting BAB claim without voting him yet. I note that both of those are awful, awful reasons to suspect someone.VP Baltar wrote:
ekiM remains scummy to me until he comes back and provides some answers to the questions I put. I think BnB is a decent lynch, which also has the potential to provide some information. zu_Faul and Shabba have shown minor tinges of scumminess, but I wouldn't say I have a great read on either as yet.Xyl wrote:Who else is scummy?
You think the BAB lynch is decent, but don't comment on how scummy you actually find him. He's claimed vanilla so of course it's a decent lynch. Is he actually scummy to you? You don't tell us. And you hedge with "might provide information".
And you have "minor tinges without a great read" on two very easy targets.
So what's that:
2 * Actual suspicions, both for awful reasons.
1* Support lynch without assessing scumminess.
2 * "Minor twinges" on easy targets.
Yeah, I'm not impressed.
Ahhh, here's some "suspicions" you had elsewhere that day:
So you're a bit muddled about BAB but it's still a reasonable wagon. Shabba is suspicious, unless she isn't, in which case never mind.VP Baltar wrote:Some of this BnB stuff is becoming a bit muddled for me as I'm going along here. This is the usual setback I find with larger games and lots of competent players, a million lines of questioning happening that lose focus. I can already tell this is going to be a long game.
Shabba suspicions have some grounds, but I agree with whoever (I think zu_faul) said that she may just be noob town since this is her first forum mafia game. More posts from her to analyze would be best, imo.
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Bridges is a reasonable enough wagon for D1, though I would hope we can put the brakes on a little bit until some of the more background players (ekiM, iamausername, SerialClergyman, etc) weigh in and answer some questions.
Then your last D1 post:
The zu and alex "suspicions" are just naming two lurkish players. The Herodotus one is super ambivalent.VP Baltar wrote:I agree with this. It is this sort of background feel about zu that sticks out to me as scummy. Honestly, until some of the more recent pages he was basically non-present to me.
Other thoughts: I am still really torn over Herodotus. There are moments when he asks some ok questions, and then there are certain things (slowly sliding in favor of BaB wagon) that stink of scum.
WTF is alex? You'd think if he was so worried about people hammering he might put some hitch in his giddy-up and post something. I've never know alex to be a lurker, so this disturbs me.
So yeah. I do think you were undercommital yesterday.
So explain how it was scummy. IE what the hell is the scum motivation for posting it that a townie doesn't have? How many times do I have to ask?VP Baltar wrote:
You know, no matter how many times you try to play it down I continue to disagree. I don't care that you said "deeply concerned" or that your said 50 times that you couldn't possibly have been serious. It is still a comment that irked me and didn't strike me as the usual RVS joking.ekiM wrote:Still waiting. Especially good would be explaining how saying "1 of 5 lurkers is scum" in the RVS is more vote-worthy than anything else you saw all day.
Yes, because it's impossible to make a facetious comment in the same post as a serious vote.VP Baltar wrote:I don't see how you are saying that it was an RVS comment considering you implied your bandwagoning Xyl vote in that same post to be serious.
Well I think forcing people to keep their vote on a serious target imposes some accountability. If you allow people to keep their vote in a null holding zone all day they can get away with vaguely voicing suspicions that don't actually mean much when examined closely. It's certainly POSSIBLE to just write what your suspicions are without voting, but if you don't vote its easier to hide that you don't have real suspicions.Xylthixlm wrote:
What harm did it do?ekiM wrote:What did keeping your vote on me while I was away accomplish?
Look at what I highlight above, do you think VP was being a bit wishy washy and limited on his suspicions yesterday?
Your complaint about me answering every question is fluff. Sorry, but it is.Ojanen wrote:
Fluff is not productive. Slight taste of pointless pleasing attempt.ekiM wrote:People don't like having questions ignored so I searched for my name and answered everything, just to be sure.
What's the motivation for this complaint?
OK. I don't think it's a contradiction. I did overblow what I said there.Ojanen wrote:Re: the thing you don't think is a contradiction. It's actually more clear in your catch up.
When you agree with the original thought, I just don't like at all how you have a problem with seeing a townie motivation. BaB was not tryng to discredit anything out of the blue there, he was getting attacked because of the original thought.ekiM wrote:Page 10
B&B 235, 237, 245 are just.... awful. Pretty sure he's scum. Worst thing: trying to discredit the Xyl+B&B not scum together line. What is the townie motivation?
Seems like we're gonna have to settle to "Isn't! Is too!" here though.
MASSIVe dodge here.Kmd4390 wrote:Shit! Just lost my whole post. Ok, doing this the ghetto way. ekiM is scum. I basically just agreed with Rofl and voted.Vote ekiM. Serial wagon makes no sense. People are beating a dead horse about my unvote on Bridge by saying I distanced from the wagon when Iexpectedto take heat, but I didn't want to lynch someone who I thought was town.
And Tajo, Medeival is my only completed game with TownYos.
First of all, I love the way you don't think the facetious comment is even worth mentioning now, but yesterday it was worth your vote all day.VP Baltar wrote:
Here's why I think ekiM is scummy in brief:Xyl wrote:What's the tl;dr case on ekiM? Something to do with his interactions with elvis, or what?
- His scum hunting Day 1 was largely non-existent. When he did finally get around to calling people scum, it almost entirely hinged on BnB being scum.
- He has used IIoA and unnecessary repetition to pad some of his posts and seem busier than he really is.
- Oj points out a pretty strong contradiction from him here
- After 27 pages of play, the best suspicions he is able to come up with are as follows:
Notice how all of these are still related to the BnB wagon, and in your particular case he is actually blaming you for not trying to derail it. Funny for someone who would have called you scum for doing that yesterday.ekiM wrote:Kmd4390- Yeah, I don't like that unvote yesterday. If you unvote for vanilla, does that mean you lynch investigative roles? I don't get it.
If you're sure someone is townie, you should be working your ass off to derail their wagon. He... didn't. Of course if he's scum and unvoted then he's off the wagon when a townie was lynched.
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VP Baltar- His fixation with me yesterday while I was V/LA seemed like a major cop-out. He didn't comment much on BAB wagon until right at the end.
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Xylthixlm- zwet alt? I don't like the huge number of one liners that don't really say anything. Got off the BAB wagon but didn't try and derail it. What does that achieve?
- Need I say more?
Responses:
- My scum hunting when I was V/LA was non-existant, yes. Well done. When I came back and decided BAB was scum, I based the rest of my suspicions on that, yes. How gauche. Now, how is either of those scummy?
- Nope.
- It's not a contradiction.
- How strange that the biggest event of yesterday should inform my suspicions for today. Seriously, what is the point of compalining about that?
You do have a point on Xyl though. He actually unvoted to allow BAB time, not to spare him. So ignore that part.
Anyway I updated my suspicions on you a bit now I'm back in the game and swinging! Woo!
- Well, the first of those is stupid and not scummy. The second and third aren't true. And the fourth, well, I wasn't fully caught up on the game. Not much to this case, IMO.
Baltar's case is garbage. Try saying which bits you agree with, and why. Don't just coast. You are definitely staying too much in the background this game, popping up to make occasional comments, but not really getting involved.Tajo wrote:ekiM - baltar case feels good. meta arguments, i dont think ive ever seen miketown being so humurous. his last elvis debate feels forced and i agree that his reads lack substance, something off in what Ive seen of mike in other games.
You've seen me as scum as often as town. Is mikescum so "humorous"? Really, I don't get this meta point. Do you think this is a good point?
Elvis spat was unfortunate.
You've mostly played with me in small games where I don't fall behind. Reads are harder in a game this size. Also I was out of the game for a week and failed to hit the ground running on return.
OK, that was retarded. But why is it scummy?zu_Faul wrote:ekiM looked really scummy on page 26, with all the "tell me who they find scummy." thing. What does it have to do with anything if player A can't tell from the top of her head who player B and C find suspicious? Scumminess has nothing to do with player A's memory.
o_0Kmd4390 wrote:
Hmm. This is a bit of a... swing vote? If BM is scum, here's a connection. If Spy is scum, Vi is very likely town.Vi wrote:Unvote: Battle Mage(L-3)
Vote: SpyreX
Did you suspect me before I voted for you? I forget. Also, you "lost" the post where you explain your vote for me. Why not summarize the reasons now.Kmd4390 wrote:I think we are more likely to hit scum in ekiM than Yos.
How can I demonstrate something that is obviously true? If an argument only damages X if they are scum, they are more likely to argue against it if they are scum. Then, by Bayes, if they argue against it they are more likely to be scum, that is, it's a scumtell.Thesp wrote:
You haven't demonstrated this at all. (I also disagree with your conclusion.)Ekim wrote:Sigh. A scum tell is an action that a scum player is more likely to take than a town player in the same situation.
You asked me if [trying to undermine a line of thought that only damages you if you are scum] is a scumtell. A scum player is much more motivated to do so than a town player, so it is a scum tell.
Unless you disagree that someone is more likely to argue against an argument that hurts them than one that doesn't, that's all just math.
No, I was pissed off that Elvis called me horrible and lazy when i was working my arse off to catch up.Thesp wrote:
Are you bothered by it?Ekim wrote:I wonder why nobody is bothered that they don't know what PookyTheMagicalBear's suspicions are?-
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My facetious comment wasVP Baltar wrote:
To let you know I found your [facetious "1 in 5 are scum] comment seriously scummy. It clearly worked since you've taken so much offense to it.ekiM wrote:What did keeping your vote on me while I was away accomplish?seriously scummyand worth keeping Baltar's vote on me for almost all of D1.
My facetious comment wasVP Baltar wrote:This may have been a jumping off point for why I first started watching ekiM closer, but it is most certainly not one of the reasons why I want him lynched. Look back at the points I made against him if you want to know why I think he's scum (which you have chosen to ignore for this insignificant BS).insignificant BSandis most certainly not one of the reasons why Baltar wants me lynched.
Odd.-
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unvote; Vote VP Baltar
Why I am voting for VP Baltar
- He voted me for making a facetious comment towards the start of the day, and left that vote there for the entire day. He was happy to leave his vote there until I "answered his questions". Well, his one question: Explain how that facetious comment was funny. He left the vote there because that comment was "seriously scummy".
- Contra the above, VP has totally failed to explain at any point how that comment was scummy, and is now not interested in discussing it. It is, after all, insignificant bullshit.
- With his vote safely planted on a V/LAer, his commitments to suspicions yesterday were distinctly underwhelming. See post 765.
- Avoiding clear comment or involvement with any of the wagons yesterday. Especially the vaguely saying BAB wagon/lynch was good, without reasons.
- Declared iamausername scum then didn't seem very interested in explaining why or questioning him.
- Sudden revived interest in me today when I make myself look like an ass and an easy target with my Elvis spasm.
- Garbage case. I think he just thinks I'm an easy target.
- Accusing anyone who defends me of chainsawing.
- Interactions with iamausername all of today are just off.
KMD
Please explain:
- Which claims would NOT have prompted an unvote from you yesterday.
- Why you barely tried to detail the BAB wagon after unvoting.
- At what point you became suspicious of me.
- Why you are voting for me.
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Please. You somehow found that commentVP Baltar wrote:Wow, finding a comment seriously scummy as a jumping off point to keep an eye on you, but later finding it to be less significant than numerous other scummy actions you have made must be some kind of contradiction!
I mean, the word seriously is in there!
More scummy arguments over semantics to ignore the actual points against you please!soscummy that it was your biggest suspicion all of day one (which is utterly ridiculous, btw). You've never explained that. Now you don't even want people to think about it.
I already responded to your whole case! More unwarranted sarcasm, please!!! Maybe if you use lots of exclamation marks people will think that you're onto something!!!!!!!!Vp Baltar wrote:More scummy arguments over semantics to ignore the actual points against you please!-
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So on page 31 VP goes from no votes to L-1. I don't have any problem with any of the votes except Elvis for jumping off pretty sharpish and giving waffly reasons in 786.
VP's AtE in 780 and unrequested vanilla claim don't impress me much.
I don't know why he voted rofl, but it's inconsequential. Asking for a claim is clearly supporting a wagon, and pretending otherwise is perverse.VP Baltar wrote:ekiM today writes wrote:When you give a reason [regarding finding iam scummy yesterday], the only thing you seem to have is that he was supported a BAB claim without voting for him immediately, which seems utterly innocuous to me. Supporting a claim is obviously support the wagon/lynch, too.
Not sure on the need to mention it if it's so innocuous to you. I gave a reason awhile back why a hypo-scum IAAUN might do that, but that was of course stupid and not scumhunting in your eyes.ekiM yesterday wrote wrote:IAUN supports B&B wagon and claim. No idea why he votes roflcopter.
Huge misrep. Not moving your vote around at all on day 1 for a terrible reason is scummy. Doubly so when those suspicions you put across apart from your vote are terrible.VP Baltar wrote:
Translation: Not moving your vote around is scummy. Response: I disagree.ekiM wrote:He voted me for making a facetious comment towards the start of the day, and left that vote there for the entire day. He was happy to leave his vote there until I "answered his questions". Well, his one question: Explain how that facetious comment was funny. He left the vote there because that comment was "seriously scummy".
So what's the hypo-scum thought process here? "I better make it look like I'm scumhunting, so I'll name some lurkers, even though it's only 24 hours into the game"? That's just plain DUMB.VP Baltar wrote:
Throwing out blanket suspicion and then later saying it was a joke when called out is scummy to me.ekiM wrote:Contra the above, VP has totally failed to explain at any point how that comment was scummy, and is now not interested in discussing it. It is, after all, insignificant bullshit.
I still don't understand why you have trouble interpreting it that way. It's not at all difficult.VP Baltar wrote:The reason I pointed out yourseriousvote on Xyl is that I don't see how you expect people to interpret one part as a joke and another as serious when you give no real indication of that in the post.
How is that a "so"?VP Baltar wrote:You seem quite capable of being sarcastic when you want, so I don't see that particular post in that way.
This is part ofVp Baltar wrote:The reason I said it's insignificant now is that I pointed out several more important reasons why you are scummy, but you seem to be trying to strawman my case into this one point. That's what I don't like about it.mycase againstyou. It might be insignificant to your current case on me, but that's irrelevant to whether it was bad of you to keep your vote on me all day one for a ridiculous reason.
So you agree you weren't scumhunting hard yesterday.VP Baltar wrote:
I don't agree, but whatever. I can't change your mind if that's your opinion. I think I was plenty clear on where I stood even if I was being lazy and not scumhunting hardekiM wrote:With his vote safely planted on a V/LAer, his commitments to suspicions yesterday were distinctly underwhelming. See post 765.
You voted for himVP Baltar wrote:
I put him at L-1. If that's not involvement I don't know what is. I was clear in why I voted him as well. I never claimed that I was contributing heavily to the case, just that I agreed with some of the points people were making. If you dont' like it, so be itekiM wrote:Avoiding clear comment or involvement with any of the wagons yesterday. Especially the vaguely saying BAB wagon/lynch was good, without reasons.the second time around, when he had been claimed for ages and people were clamoring for his hammer. You put him at L-1 when he was 100% guaranteed to be the lynch, right at the end of the day. That is NOT involvement in the wagon. Don't try and elide that and make it sound like you were on it earlirer.
I'm talking about before that vote, obviously. You're pretending not to understand that. Up until the L-1 vote when BAB was already a dead man walking you were super wishy washy on his wagon. "I'm a bit confused but I guess it's an OK wagon". etc.
And Ojanen. Had to walk that back when you realized how absurd it was though, eh?VP Baltar wrote:
I believe iam was the only person I actually accused of this. Still believe it's trueekiM wrote:Accusing anyone who defends me of chainsawing.
OK, I have looked at my iso from day 1. Look at the timeframe of my posts. Post 2 is a random vote in the RVS. Post 3 is the Xyl bandwagon as we leave RVS. Post 4-5 I vote for B&B and scumhunt. Then I am V/LA. When I'm back, I only have time to respond to people in post 8, then catch up in 9-11. Then the day is over. I was barely caught up at this point and post 11 is my first thoughts during my read through. Maybe it's not the best scumhunting ever, but I had 13 pages to catch up on.VP Baltar wrote:
You know very well I wasn't referring to you being V/LA. I implore people to look at your posts in iso. You vote BaB on like page six as his wagon is gaining significant backing. Then when you come back the only scumhunting you really do is to say that anyone trying to stop his wagon is his buddy. Like I said before, my play wasn't exactly great yesterday, but you saying it's bad is the height of hypocrisy.ekiM wrote:My scum hunting when I was V/LA was non-existant, yes. Well done. When I came back and decided BAB was scum, I based the rest of my suspicions on that, yes. How gauche. Now, how is either of those scummy?
I don't see, at all, how my scumhunting was "non-existant".
You were active all of yesterday and your scumhunting was terrible, and your main suspicions were ludicrous. Accusing me of hypocrisy doesn't help that.
No, I'm saying if people were convinced he was town they should have been derailing the wagon, not unvoting then mostly ignoring it. Misrep again.VP Baltar wrote:
It's the way you are doing it that is scummy. He flipped town and now you are arguing that the people who weren't as gung-ho about his lynch as you are the most scummy for that. If anything, your fixation on him yesterday and all things related looks scummy to meekiM wrote:How strange that the biggest event of yesterday should inform my suspicions for today. Seriously, what is the point of compalining about that?
Don't respond to a quote by pasting bold stuff inside of the quote. It's impossible to read, and even harder to respond to.
He put him at L-1elvis_knits wrote:
I think that VP could be accused of not using his vote enough yesterday, but I don't think it's fair to say he didn't comment. Also, I didn't remember VP put BaB at L-1, which makes him seem a little better in my eyes, since he did eventually start using his vote. Mike doesn't seem to mention this, which is a bad ommision.VP Baltar wrote:[*]Avoiding clear comment or involvement with any of the wagons yesterday. Especially the vaguely saying BAB wagon/lynch was good, without reasons.
I put him at L-1. If that's not involvement I don't know what is. I was clear in why I voted him as well. I never claimed that I was contributing heavily to the case, just that I agreed with some of the points people were making. If you dont' like it, so be it
Overall, I like VP's answers in his last post and it brought some things to my attention, like that he put BaB at L-1, which I didn't remember. That makes him more proactive than I remember him, and more proactive than ekiM is saying he was.
vote ekiMsince he has the most votes of the people I suspect, and I think that he was unfair in some of his points on VP.the second time around, when BAB had already been claimed for ages and people were asking for him to be hammered. BAB was dead meat. It's hardly putting yourself out there to make that vote. What I was referring to was him not commenting seriously on wagons whilst they were ongoing. The omission here is VP's, by making it sound like he put BAB at L-1 pre-claim. He was NOT being proactive wrt the BAB wagon. Putting BAB at L-1 right at the end of the day doesn't mean squat, and VP pretending it does is bad.
For an example, here's a wishy washy comment from VP about the BAB wagon earlier that I find troublesome
"Some of this BnB stuff is becoming a bit muddled for me as I'm going along here. This is the usual setback I find with larger games and lots of competent players, a million lines of questioning happening that lose focus. I can already tell this is going to be a long game.
...
Bridges is a reasonable enough wagon for D1, though I would hope we can put the brakes on a little bit until some of the more background players (ekiM, iamausername, SerialClergyman, etc) weigh in and answer some questions."
-You must have thought about this in some detail, so you should be able to tell me which claims scum might make; and which ones don't merit an unvote.Kmd4390 wrote:
-I don't know. I've already explained over and over again why scum wouldn't have claimed vanilla.ekiM wrote:KMD
Please explain:
- Which claims would NOT have prompted an unvote from you yesterday.
- Why you barely tried to detail the BAB wagon after unvoting.
- At what point you became suspicious of me.
- Why you are voting for me.
-V/LA
-first couple of pages
-I think you are scum.
-k.
-And that's been persistant, or piqued by something else recently?
-Why?
Charter you said my wagon was clearly scum-driven. You seem to think VP is town. You've barely mentioned or suspected KMD, or Ojanen, or Tajo. Who did you have in mind?
I seriously do not understand rofl saying that anyone voting for Yos is scummy. This requires explanation.-
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Which bit don't you understand? Why unnecessary claims are anti-town, or why nobody was going to quickhammer you without asking for a claim?VP Baltar wrote:
Of course I was frustrated. There were shitty points being made imo and I was practically lynched before I even had a chance to respond. That's just utterly ridiculous to me. Also, wtf is scummy or bad about claiming at L-1? Especially when it takes a page for me to get there. I didn't know there were protocals in place that said I had to wait until I was prompted to claim.ekiM wrote:VP's AtE in 780 and unrequested vanilla claim don't impress me much.
Unnecessary claims are anti-town because they allow scum to find power roles more easily.
Nobody was going to quickhammer you because it's very anti-town to quickhammer without hearing a claim.
I noted it because I didn't know why he made the vote. It's irrelevant to your argument that he was somehow equivocating on whether he supported the BAB wagon. He wasn't.VP Baltar wrote:
And yet, you didn't address what I said. Why would you even bring it up yesterday if it was so inconsequential to you?ekiM wrote:I don't know why he voted rofl, but it's inconsequential. Asking for a claim is clearly supporting a wagon, and pretending otherwise is perverse.
Note that I said "IAUN supports B&B wagon and claim." ...
And yet, you didn't address what I said. Transalting "keeping your vote on someone for anVP Baltar wrote:
Oh, so now the case has expanded into all of my suspicions were "terrible". I guess I was indeed misrepping yourekiM wrote:Huge misrep. Not moving your vote around at all on day 1 for a terrible reason is scummy. Doubly so when those suspicions you put across apart from your vote are terrible.gross exaggerationcase.entire day onefor something from the end of the RVS" as "not moving your vote around" is dishonest.
And, yes, I do think that all of the suspicions you gave yesterday were weakly suppoted. Your response was "that's your opinion". So that's an impasse.
Oh?VP Baltar wrote:
Even if you believe I said she was chainsawing (which I did not make any serious accusation of), you stated that I was "accusing anyone who defends [you] of chainsawing", which is once again an example of the blatant exaggeration you have been taking in your entire "case" against me.ekiM wrote:And Ojanen. Had to walk that back when you realized how absurd it was though, eh?
So this wasn't a serious accusation?VP Baltar wrote:
Maybe you're his buddy. For how much you talk about him being scummy (a considerable amount more than me), you seem at ease with slipping off that wagon after it has now gained some steam.Oj wrote:Also, if I'm sensing tides, why detract from Mike wagon now.
When you say that my scumhunting was non-existant, that's exaggeration and inaccurate.VP Baltar wrote:You can call my attacks bad if you'd like, but at least I'm not going out of my way to blatantly pad my arguments with inaccurate crap. You may be too full of yourself to admit when you're wrong, but I am not.
When you "translate" a complaint about leaving your vote on one person for an entire day one as "not moving your vote is scummy", that's inaccurate. When you respond to me pointing that out with something irrelevant, that's refusing to admit that you're wrong.
When you accuse me of exaggerating when I'm not, that's inaccurate.
When you pretend you didn't accuse Ojanen of being scummy for detracting from my wagon, that's refusing to admit you're wrong.
...
Yeah.
Since when does using an assumption mean something is not scumhunting? Do you actually believe this or are you just being as contrary as possible?VP Baltar wrote:
So, accusing tons of people on the unproven premise that BaB was scum is actually scumhunting to you?ekiM wrote:I don't see, at all, how my scumhunting was "non-existant".
I have acknowledged a bunch of times that that post was my first notes, written mostly assuming BAB is scum. If I had more time before day ended I would've done more. Keep repeating yourself endlessly if you like.VP Baltar wrote:I don't understand your point that you had to catch up on 13 pages and that is why your scumhunting was bad. I would think that having tons of material plus the hindsight of where the game was at during that time would give you plenty of opportunity for scumhunting. Personally, some of the best scumhunting I ever do is when I replace into games because I have time to look over things carefully and assess my accusations outside of the moment when they are happening.
Look at your catch-up post in hindsight. Pretty much all of it is written with the pre-conceived notion that BaB is scum. It doesn't even look like you are actually catching up so much as a "let me do a iioa for a BaB lynch" mega post.
I haven't ignored what you've said... you've just quoted and responded to my response! Which took me a long time to write because I had to extract what I was quoting. I'm just asking you not to use an incredibly annoying way of posting that makes a lot of work for anyone who wants to quote you. You don't have to comply, but it would be nice.VP Baltar wrote:ekiM wrote:Don't respond to a quote by pasting bold stuff inside of the quote. It's impossible to read, and even harder to respond to.
That's no reason to ignore what I said, nor do I care that you don't like it. Now respond.-
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Also.Yosarian2 wrote:
...SerialClergyman wrote: Vp had his wagon grow dramatically yet he lived despite claiming vanilla,
he claimed what?
(re-reads)
You're right, I missed that.VP Baller wrote:When I flip vanilla
VP, why the hell would you do that? You do realize claiming vanilla is just an inherently anti-town act, right?-
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Hey Elvis, when you wrote this were you aware VP made that vote in the third last post in the game, when BAB's lynch was inevitable (not earlier, pre-claim)? If so, how was that proactive?elvis_knits wrote:
I think that VP could be accused of not using his vote enough yesterday, but I don't think it's fair to say he didn't comment. Also, I didn't remember VP put BaB at L-1, which makes him seem a little better in my eyes, since he did eventually start using his vote. Mike doesn't seem to mention this, which is a bad ommision.VP Baltar wrote: [*]Avoiding clear comment or involvement with any of the wagons yesterday. Especially the vaguely saying BAB wagon/lynch was good, without reasons.
I put him at L-1. If that's not involvement I don't know what is. I was clear in why I voted him as well. I never claimed that I was contributing heavily to the case, just that I agreed with some of the points people were making. If you dont' like it, so be it
Overall, I like VP's answers in his last post and it brought some things to my attention, like that he put BaB at L-1, which I didn't remember. That makes him more proactive than I remember him, and more proactive than ekiM is saying he was.
vote ekiMsince he has the most votes of the people I suspect, and I think that he was unfair in some of his points on VP.-
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Nobody was going to hammer him without asking for a claim. Throwing out a claim the second you get to L-1 is just bad play.elvis_knits wrote:
And how was claiming at L-1 unneccesary?ekiM wrote:I didn't say that, though. I said unnecessary claims are anti-town.
It's not useless semantics. Anti-town and scummy are not the same thing. It's possible to make an anti-town move like that if you're ignorant of why it's bad. He asked why it was bad. I told him.elvis_knits wrote:And are you trying to tell me that you were saying VP was anti town but not scummy for that? Useless semantics! Why would you even bring it up if you don't think it's scummy, since you are voting the guy as scum?-
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Nobody was going to hammer you without asking for a claim. Nobody in this game is a zwet.VP Baltar wrote:
Well that is some nice WIFOM, but a wagon that goes from practically nothing to L-1 that quickly doesn't give me much confidence that people are being reasonable and are going to wait for a claim before lynching me.ekiM wrote:Nobody was going to quickhammer you because it's very anti-town to quickhammer without hearing a claim.
Also, what's the relevence of WIFOM?
Again, you claimed that he was equivocating on whether he would support the BAB wagon or not. He wasn't. The rofl vote was kind of useless but irrelevant to that point.VP Baltar wrote:
I pointed it out not to support my point, which is independent from your comments, but rather to show that your confirmation bias against me is so strong that you are willing to ignore your own noting of it yesterday. You may not see it in the same light as I do, but it must have at least registered to you for it to be noted. However, when I say I think it could potentially have scummy motivation you are basically saying that I'm being irrational. Those stances don't agree for me.ekiM wrote:I noted it because I didn't know why he made the vote. It's irrelevant to your argument that he was somehow equivocating on whether he supported the BAB wagon. He wasn't.
And you can't pretend I agreed with you. I noted:
"IAUN supports B&B wagon and claim. No idea why he votes roflcopter."
I explicitly noted that he supported the wagon. So saying that I somehow agreed with you that he was equivocating is just perverse.
Why cut that from what you quote, btw?
So it was a serious accusation. So don't pretend otherwise.VP Baltar wrote:
I admitted to being emotional in my response after I had some time to sleep and approach it in a more reasonable way. Oj and I were having a heated debate and it wasn't a fair accusation for me to make. I did not "chainsaw anyone who defended you", as I am quite certain there are others who didn't agree with me. That is why I am saying it is an exaggeration.ekiM wrote:So this wasn't a serious accusation?
Name those other people defending me then. I don't remember any. You accused both IAUN and Ojanen of being scum for defending me.
So you never try and see who is working to derail a wagon until the lynch has gone through? I literally don't know what your point is here or if you think anyone should take it seriously.VP Baltar wrote:
You weren't looking for any scummy behaviour at all. That's not scumhunting. All you were saying was 'this person attempts to stop BaB wagon. That is bad.'ekiM wrote:]Since when does using an assumption mean something is not scumhunting? Do you actually believe this or are you just being as contrary as possible?
How is that actually scumhunting, but me questioning people on their statements and independent behavior is not?
BAB was scummy and had claimed vanilla. I decided I wasn't going to support any other lynch that day. How is making that decision then re-reading based upon it scummy?VP Baltar wrote:
So, even though you hadn't read the 13 pages you went into it "assuming BaB is scum"? That's what I'm saying, that's not scumhunting, that's looking for the convenient lynch.ekiM wrote:I have acknowledged a bunch of times that that post was my first notes, written mostly assuming BAB is scum. If I had more time before day ended I would've done more. Keep repeating yourself endlessly if you like.-
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He should've answered the points against him. You would still have unvoted if he hadn't have claimed, I'm guessing. Unless an eighth person decided they were ready for a lynch and asked for a claim, he wasn't in immediate danger of being lynched and shouldn't have claimed.elvis_knits wrote:
So what are you saying he was supposed to have done? Wait until someone ask for a claim and then claim? What is the point of that? Everyone knows that when they get close to a lynch, that is their chance to claim. I see nothing wrong with a player taking it into their own hands to claim without being asked if they are close to a lynch.ekiM wrote:
Nobody was going to hammer him without asking for a claim. Throwing out a claim the second you get to L-1 is just bad play.elvis_knits wrote:
And how was claiming at L-1 unneccesary?ekiM wrote:I didn't say that, though. I said unnecessary claims are anti-town.
It's just not good play to claim as soon as possible. Claiming should be the last resort when someone is seriously threatening to hammer.
No. Anti-town is things that damage the town's chances of winning. Scummy is things that a player is more likely or motivated to do if they're scum.elvis_knits wrote:
First of all, I think that anti-town and scummy are more or less the same thing. The only difference is if you're town and playing scummy, you're being anti-town.ekiM wrote:
It's not useless semantics. Anti-town and scummy are not the same thing. It's possible to make an anti-town move like that if you're ignorant of why it's bad. He asked why it was bad. I told him.elvis_knits wrote:And are you trying to tell me that you were saying VP was anti town but not scummy for that? Useless semantics! Why would you even bring it up if you don't think it's scummy, since you are voting the guy as scum?
Shrug. I described his claim as unnecessary when I said it didn't impress me. He asked what was wrong with it. I explained what's wrong with it. Enough people don't know this theory that it's not a strong point. Obviously if there was some strong reason to believe he was feigning ignorance that would be something worth raising, but I got nothing along those lines.elvis_knits wrote:I don't see how a scummy person could be anti-town but not scummy, like their anti-town behavior has nothing to do with their allignment when it happens to be scum?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you think VP is scum, you should be assuming that all his anti-town actions are motivated by his allignment, and scummy.-
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1) I'm not hiding behind Yos. You went ballistic at me describing it as bad, so I pointed out Yos holds the same position. Unless you think Yos and Xyl are both lying about this theoretical point?elvis_knits wrote:I really do not like ekiM 1)Hiding behind Yos arguments in 909; or 2)Backpedaling and making semantical arguments that what VP did was anti-town but not scummy.
2) I haven't backpedalled.
How is that a contradiction? A weak scum tell is still a scum tell. And, according to youelvis_knits wrote:I do not like Yos piling on here. He admits himself that this is not a reliable scum tell but is using it as a point against VP. Contradiction much?
"if you think VP is scum, you should be assuming that all his anti-town actions are motivated by his allignment, and scummy."
So you're unhappy when Yos did use it as a point, and unhappy when I didn't. Huh?
VP's decision to claim for no good reason was his own.VP Baltar wrote:I do not like Xyl forcing the situation that led to claim by putting VP L-1 without giving any reason for doing so, and now saying how horrible VP's claim was. Xyl, I blame you for VP's claim (not entirely, but more than average), and I think it's scummy for you to moan how horrible his claim was.
If someone puts someone to L-1 it's presumably because they think that person would be a good lynch. What other reasons might they give?
I'm struggling to believe you're serious here. You're talking like I literally started reading from page 8 without looking at anything else, which is just silly. First of all I skimmed what I missed, saw that BAB was real scummy and had claimed vanilla,so when I started to look back in more depth I worked from the assumption that he was scum, becauseVP Baltar wrote:
Because you are not objectively looking to find who is scummy. How the hell can you determine when you are 13 pages behind if your initial read of BaB is accurate?ekiM wrote:BAB was scummy and had claimed vanilla. I decided I wasn't going to support any other lynch that day. How is making that decision then re-reading based upon it scummy?
I would like those people on my wagon to tell me if you think the above behavior is more likely to come from town or scum.that's what I thought.
Well, you're just wrong. Sorry. It is absolutely NOT best to have that information out there.VP Baltr wrote:re: I don't care what Yos, Xyl and ekiM believe the "town" play is in that situation, if I'm at L-1 and it looks like I am highly likely to head for a lynch I am going to claim whether someone asks me or not. It's best to have that information out there and the argument that it is scummy is flat out BS.
-So you don't have any idea what PRs scum might claim, but you were sure they wouldn't claim vanilla?Kmd4390 wrote:
-Actually, I didn't.ekiM wrote:-You must have thought about this in some detail, so you should be able to tell me which claims scum might make; and which ones don't merit an unvote.
-k.
-And that's been persistant, or piqued by something else recently?
-Why?
----
-persistent.
-Mostly gut.
-So I'm your number one suspect, but you've not made a comment on my play or asked me a question since very early day 1? The reason for your suspicion is 'gut'?
How does that point to Xyl being scum?charter wrote:
If this isn't a confession of Xyl being scum, I don't know what is. He just gives up on Yos (he hasn't made any point either, by the way) to hop back on VP.Xylthixlm wrote:Fine, I guess I've made my point
unvote, vote VP Baltar
Don't forget that Yos is scum
Charter you said then that my wagon was clearly scum-driven. You think VP is town. You've barely mentioned or suspected KMD, or Ojanen, or Tajo. Who did you have in mind when you said that? Why did you not pursue them?charter wrote:VP is clearly town. I think I was wrong about ekiM before. Everyone I am suspicious of is voting for VP for terrible or nonexistent reasons and isn't even looking at ekiM. At all.
Could you summarise which points against me you think are valid? You haven't really commented on my play whatsoever, yet you've gone from thinking my wagon is scum driven, to me being part of your hypo-scumteam. This strikes me as odd.charter wrote: As for the ekiM, too many people are preferring VP (and at times for terrible reasons) over ekiM, I really don't see a reason so many people are ignoring ekiM either, so it looks to me like they are trying to save him.
Lol. What is with this "anyone who says anything I disagree with proves they are scum" line? Do you really believe that? Cause you seem to have pulled it out quite often.elvis_knits wrote:Serial shows he is scum:
SerialClergyman wrote:In fact, while I'm rummaging around.. Replace BAB with VP and see if it's the same thought process
Elvis' philosophy seems to have changed dramatically on D2.elvis_knits wrote:Claus, I'd like a scum list too but I'm not going to beg for it and I'm not going to wait 12 days for it. I also think there's no reason why BAB shouldn't be kept close to a lynch in meantime. A vanilla claim from a scummy person should cement their lynch, honestly. I mean, if you're not lynching a vanilla, who would you go through with the lynch on? Keep the claimed vanilla, kill the claimed doc? Because we think scum would fake a power role? That is backwards thinking.
This should be our thinking:
1)BAB is scummy
2)BAB claimed vanilla
3)BAB is either vanilla or scum.
4)If we lynch BAB, we either lynch scum or vanilla, therefore little damage to town, or huge advantage. As a bonus, no power roles have to claim today.X
elvis wrote:I agree that a vanilla claim should not save a person. That is not why the VP wagon is bad. It's because it almost lynched him in one page, and because all the other top suspects are on the lynch!
If someone hammers without asking for a claim they are very, very likely to be scum (or zwet). You should ABSOLUTELY be happy to trade your vanilla self for revealing someone to be scum.VP Baltar wrote:
So if people are going to follow through with my lynch they at least know I'm not a power role. I really don't understand the argument 'don't claim unless prompted'. What would you have proposed should have happened, I kept quiet while people followed through with lynching me and then have me potentially come up a power role? How is that benefiting the town?IAAUN wrote:How [is giving claim information useful]?
Huh?VP Baltar wrote:
So most of your reason for thinking him town is because of a one game meta? Have you ever seen him as scum? How do you know his play isn't similar regardless of alignment?SC wrote:A good part of why I have a townread on Xyl is that his behaviour is actually very similar to a game I just played with him as town here.
People: X is scum for acting in ABC ways.
SC: But X acted in ABC ways in another game as town, so how does that make him scum?
VP: Maybe he acts that way as scum and as town.
*Bzzt*.
You voted me for being unfair to VP in that argument, but actually I was right and VP misleadingly cited his end-of-day L-1 vote to try and show he was proactively involved in the BAB wagon, when he really was not. It doesn't bother you at all that he pretty much flat-out misled you? Hmm.elvis_knits wrote:
I wasn't aware of that exactly when I made that post. But I don't feel like doing a whole reread of VP at this point when it's obvious that his wagon is bad. The 1-page almost lynch is not normal. Xyl giving no reason for putting VP L-1 is not normal. ekiM and serial and username, all top suspects for me being on the lynch and staying on the lynch... all these things make me think the wagon is BAD. So I don't feel like wasting my time doing a reread of VP at this point.ekiM 910 wrote:
Hey Elvis, when you wrote this were you aware VP made that vote in the third last post in the game, when BAB's lynch was inevitable (not earlier, pre-claim)? If so, how was that proactive?elvis_knits wrote:
I think that VP could be accused of not using his vote enough yesterday, but I don't think it's fair to say he didn't comment. Also, I didn't remember VP put BaB at L-1, which makes him seem a little better in my eyes, since he did eventually start using his vote. Mike doesn't seem to mention this, which is a bad ommision.VP Baltar wrote: [*]Avoiding clear comment or involvement with any of the wagons yesterday. Especially the vaguely saying BAB wagon/lynch was good, without reasons.
I put him at L-1. If that's not involvement I don't know what is. I was clear in why I voted him as well. I never claimed that I was contributing heavily to the case, just that I agreed with some of the points people were making. If you dont' like it, so be it
Overall, I like VP's answers in his last post and it brought some things to my attention, like that he put BaB at L-1, which I didn't remember. That makes him more proactive than I remember him, and more proactive than ekiM is saying he was.
vote ekiMsince he has the most votes of the people I suspect, and I think that he was unfair in some of his points on VP.
"I think that VP could be accused of not using his vote enough yesterday, but I don't think it's fair to say he didn't comment. Also, I didn't remember VP put BaB at L-1, which makes him seem a little better in my eyes, since he did eventually start using his vote." -At the very end of the day! This is not practive involvement in the wagon! He is citing it like it was!
"Mike doesn't seem to mention this, which is a bad ommision." -I don't mention it because it was right at the end of the day---it was NOT proactive involvement. It's NOT a bad omission by me --- it 's a bad omission by HIM when he cites it as if it were in the middle of the day when it was right at the very end.
Overall, I like VP's answers in his last post and it brought some things to my attention, like that he put BaB at L-1, which I didn't remember. That makes him more proactive than I remember him, and more proactive than ekiM is saying he was.-No it doesn't! It was in no way proactive! Him citing it as if it was is dishonest!
-vote ekiMsince he has the most votes of the people I suspect, and I think that he was unfair in some of his points on VP.The "unfair point" you keep referring to is saying he wasn't proactive at all on the BAB wagon --- and I wasn't being unfair at all there!
None of this bothers you at all??? Really?
Yes, it's annoying to have people keep asking you to do something you're already working on. I hear that.elvis_knits wrote:
I WAS.iamausername wrote:P.S.
iamausername wrote:
ELVIS. DO THIS.Ojanen wrote:elvis. I want you to stop ignoring the thing presented directly to you in at least 910, 792, 799 and say why you would think Baltar was anyhow townishly involved with the BAB vote.
The speed doesn't bother me because I think everyone who joined is likely town.elvis_knits wrote:I want to ask you serial, and everyone else still on the VP wagon:
Didn't the speed of the wagon worry you?
Do you often see a wagon build on scum that fast?
I don't often see wagons onanyonebuild that fast. In fact I've never seen a wagon build that fast, on town or scum. So why am I supposed to conclude that fast wagons are inevitably scum driven? Saying that a fast wagon exonerates the wagonee just seems like a massive fallacy to me.
AtE. Like, woah. Maybe they've listened to your arguments and found them wanting? Is that conceivable?VP Baltar wrote:What is annoying me slightly in this game is that people seem so resigned to my lynch that they are not even listening to the arguments I'm making, especially when it comes to ekiM.
It's a bad point. That's all. I came back, I skimmed the thread, I decided BAB was scum. How is that scummy?VP Baltar wrote:Do you think I'm being honestly unreasonable when I pointed out that him approaching the game yesterday with the preconceived notion of BaB being scum is in itself scummy?
What the fuck? Read what you just wrote again, please.VP Baltar wrote:
No, it does not if you play the same way as scum. A one game meta where you were town does nothing to counteract that fact.Xyl wrote:Oh? It negates any "but he wouldn't play this way as town" arguments.-
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This is so... fail. I just... what.VP Baltar wrote:
No, it does not if you play the same way as scum. A one game meta where you were town does nothing to counteract that fact.Xyl wrote:Oh? It negates any "but he wouldn't play this way as town" arguments.
"He wouldn't play this way as town!"
"He played that way as town before..."
"So what?"
Like... wow. How can this be a good faith argument?-
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elvis_knits wrote:Claiming at L-1 is not scummy. End of story.
I stopped reading the post after this. I don't see how ekiM can be anything other than scum if he's trying to say VP is scum for claiming at L-1.elvis_knits wrote:I wasn't aware of that exactly when I made that post. But I don't feel like doing a whole reread of VP at this point when it's obvious that his wagon is bad. The 1-page almost lynch is not normal. Xyl giving no reason for putting VP L-1 is not normal. ekiM and serial and username, all top suspects for me being on the lynch and staying on the lynch... all these things make me think the wagon is BAD. So I don't feel like wasting my time doing a reread of VP at this point.
It's a pattern. The second one is especially bad. I said VP wasn't actively involved or commenting strongly on wagons. VP says "I put BAB on L-1! If that isn't involvement, what is?". You say "Good point, he was being proactive, and ekiM omitted that". This was just wrong. That vote was at the very end of the day, and was in no way proactive. This is pointed out to you many times. When you finally acknowledge this, you don't seem bothered, and don't want to talk about it all. It's weird.elvis_knits wrote:If you make posts that long, which ekiM has done continually throughout the game, I think it should be autolynch.
I get the feeling you know your arguments for VP being town don't stand up to scrutiny, so you aren't scrutinizing them. The question then is whether this is because you are scum with him, or because you're town and not willing to back down now.-
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That bit was overdetailed I think. I said everything I said there in one paragraph of 1020.Xylthixlm wrote:
I dunno, I think I agreed with everything in that post.elvis_knits wrote:If you make posts that long, which ekiM has done continually throughout the game, I think it should be autolynch.
I might have skimmed some bits in the middle where he switched to using italics though.-
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VP Baltar wrote:
If people (apart from IAAUN) actually responded to what I was saying instead of going, "LYNCH BALTAR RAWR!!!!!", I might be inclined to believe it.ekiM wrote:Maybe they've listened to your arguments and found them wanting? Is that conceivable?
From where I'm sitting, I'm town, your arguments against me are not good, and I rebut them all. I don't know that everyone else needs to rebut them too, especially if they think you're scummy.
Again, this is simply an awfully weak point. Maybe that's why nobody is bothering with it. Sorry, I guess?VP Baltar wrote:
Bull. My point is that when you came back you saw BaB was headed toward a lynch and simply reread the game with the preconception that he was scum. That is scummy. Remember when you said this:ekiM wrote:I came back, I skimmed the thread, I decided BAB was scum.
Then I said this:ekiM wrote:BAB was scummy and had claimed vanilla. I decided I wasn't going to support any other lynch that day. How is making that decision then re-reading based upon it scummy?
And the number of replies I received to that was zero, iirc. That is what i'm saying about people being lazy and simply resigning to my lynch without listening to a word I am saying.VPB wrote:Because you are not objectively looking to find who is scummy. How the hell can you determine when you are 13 pages behind if your initial read of BaB is accurate?
I would like those people on my wagon to tell me if you think the above behavior is more likely to come from town or scum.
Once more, from the top: I came back. I skimmed the thread. I saw BAB was real scummy and also headed for a lynch. I decided BAB was likely to flip scum. I re-read in detail from that perspective.
Tell me what's wrong with any of that. Tell me how it is in any way scummy to do that.-
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