/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[Shabba]

Wait.
My first post got shot down because you thought all I did was ask questions, which you thought was scummy:

charter wrote:
"I add Shabba to my list of suspects for that post because #1 is scummy as hell and because she asks for four people's opinions on wagons but has given no opinion on anyone herself."

but now, you're saying that I'm scummy because I'm now giving my opinion, but not asking enough questions?

[charter]

The #1 is in reference to the first question you ask in 215. I forgot about that post when I said you weren't scumhunting, so I was wrong, I take that back (however, you should follow up on them). When I say take a stance, I mean vote someone or do something that actually shows what you think about someone. Naming the top two suspects and not actually committing to one looks really scummy to the rest of us, especially when those two seem unlikely to both be scum.

[Herodotus]

@BridgesAndBaloons: Could you comment on a wider variety of the players?

[Claus]

Hello!

I'm a bit too tired to post today, but I really would like to read and comment on the recent developments. So would you guys please avoid hammering BaB in the next 24 hours or so?

BaB, just in case you are quicklynched, could you give us a list of the 5 scummiest players in the game so far? Thanks!

See you tomorrow!

Yos, answering your question - I think that staying back and "listening" without contributing, for the sake of "gathering information" is scummy if you never return that information you supposedly got back to the town - and it doesn't really seem that you will. It is a great excuse for scum not to contribute. "Oh, no, I'm not talking because... yes, I'm observing, yes! hehehe". All of this counts double coming from you, who I see as contributing a lot as town, and "sits back and observes" a lot as scum.

I see you have posted a bit in the last few pages, so I may change my opinion when I come to read them tomorrow.

[mith]

Vote Count:

11 to lynch.

BridgesAndBaloons: 9 (charter, ekiM, inHimshallibe, Kmd4390, Ojanen, roflcopter, SerialClergyman, Thesp, Xylthixlm)
elvis_knits: 3 (BridgesAndBaloons, Claus, zu_Faul)
ekiM: 2 (populartajo, VP Baltar)
alexhans: 1 (iamausername)
Claus: 1 (alexhans)
iamausername: 1 (Herodotus)
Kmd4390: 1 (elvis_knits)
Shabba: 1 (Yosarian2)

Not Voting: 1 (Shabba)

[zu_Faul]

I am not sold on BAB's townieness, but I don't think she deserves the spotlight she is currently getting.

Why not?

Because there are players who are actually doing scummy things.

---

Shabba seems more inexperienced as opposed to scummy. Got to keep in mind for the next days, but I'd give her a chance to make her behaviour better.

Xyl's vote and accusations hop around too much for my taste.

Herodotus' lurker hunt is not yet a good idea.

BAB plays pro-townish; the initial accusations were not bad, but I have not yet seen further indication of his scumminess. Players who make a scummy thing and then disapp; ared completely should rather be persecuted. ekiM for example.[/hr]

[elvis_knits]

Charter,

I think BaB is scummy, mainly because of posts 100, 102, 155 and 245 (angry vibes)...First, I thought that BaB was bussing Xyl...until Xyl voted for him, so there goes that theory. Post 251 confused me...big time.

I just don't agree with Elvis_Knits's logic, throughout. The arguments seem weak or diversionary, like posts 81, 94 (which I read as an overreaction), 104 (tone and tedium), and 172 (again, I don't see where the argument is going or what kind of weight it holds)

After rereading, I don't get a scummy vibe from Yosarian2...i especially liked post 240...

Post 245: good post

iamusername: what does ITP stand for?

My top suspects right now are BridgesandBalloons and Elvis_Knits, in that order.
Bridges: flustered and waffley
Elvis: tone and overreacting.
I'm not sure which one is worse.

unvote

There's a problem here...

First you said post 245 by bridges gave you "angry vibes" and is one of the reasons you think bridges is scum.

Then you say "245: Good Post"

This doesn't make sense. Are you using 245 as a reason to think bridges is scum, but then also agreeing with it and using it as a reason to think I'm scum?

Also if Bridges is your top suspect, why aren't you voting him?

[elvis_knits]

This is the way I see the game. I tried to put reasons where I felt I hadn't already explained myself ad nauseum (like with kmd/bridges). Some of the prob/town or town people I don't have that much of a reason, just the absence of anything scummy or I have no problem with them, so I didn't really put anything by their names. If there are specific questions on anyone, I will be happy to elaborate.

SCUMMY:

kmd
Bridges
iamausername - see my post 227
shabba - disagrees with herself over 245, failure to vote top suspect, bridges

Neutral/doubts:

zufaul - seems to stop progress for no reason (slowing attacks on bridges, shabba, discouraging herodotus's lurker hunt, reprimanding xyl for too much vote hopping... these all impede the progress of a game. Pressuring people gives us better reads, so what zu is doing is bad).
herdotus - some weasely moments
ekiM - some attention on him led to recent lurking
Xyl - not liking all his reasons for votes

Complete neutral:

alexhans - V/LA
SerialClergyman - I have no memory of what this person has done

Neutral/lean town:

Claus
inHim
VPBaltar
Thesp
tajo

Town:

Charter
Ojanen
roflcopter
Yos

[elvis_knits]

Oops, I see Shabba meant 247 instead of 245, so I guess scratch that reason...

But she still failed to vote her top suspect. That reason remains.

[Shabba]

Ooooh, Charter, you're right! (p.s. I appreciate the help.) I hadn't followed up on what I had asked.... Here's what I found:
After my post where I ask people questions, (215), Thesp didn't answer me, and neither did Ojanen. Nobody told me what ITP meant, and here's what happened with Xyl:
So, I ask him why he isn't feeling scum from BaB. He didn't answer me directly, but soonafter he did post (263) and agreed with Yos2 and changed his vote to BaB. THEN, he quoted one of my posts, but not the one where I asked him the question, and says he'd vote me...this is just after you said you wanted to vote me soooo bad. So, in short, he didn't answer in detail why he voted for BaB, he just quoted Yos and said he agreed. I don't know if that is scummy or not. Hmmm.

Elvis, the reason why I didn't actually vote yet is because right now there are just two more needed to lynch. If I vote BaB and they're innocent, then some scummy person hops on and hammers them, right? This is my first forum mafia experience and I don't want to start it out being wrong and lynching an innocent person. I'm trying to be overly cautious.

[Thesp]

i get the feeling kmd/bridges found themselves in a 4 person scumgroup, assumed that the sample role pms would simply state as much and therefore presented the information. upon discovering that the sample pms actually account for up to five scum, they are both now struggling to come up with reasons why they assumed 4, with such charming excuses as "i thought there were only 16 players." really? you haven't been paying attention to the more than a month long game placement process and announcement which very clearly indicated you had been placed in a 20 person game with only people who you were interested in playing with, or at the very least were not adverse to playing with? i don't buy it.

You think both saw each other's response and backed eash other up?

I find myself increasingly distrustful of Xylthixlm.

Why didn't anyone say this sooner? Like why didn't KMD say this sooner when I proved serious and voted him for this?? WTF.

I didn't say anything because I didn't want to speak for kmd3490. (His response is consistent with what I had thought he was originally communicating.)

I'm not thinking Kmd's slip was a probable legitimate slip after reading all the stuff but FoS: Kmd for the reaction.

Which reaction?

Happy birthday, inHimshallibe!

shabba's apparent lack of forum mafia experience gives me pause.

besides, a shabba wagon would take the wind out of the bridgewagon's sails, and that would be a real bummer since we should be lynching him pronto.

QFT - it extends beyond forum mafia as well - Shabba is still learning the nuances of the game. I agree on pushing, I don't think there's strong indicators of anything either way yet.

As far as Shabba is concerned, there are multiple players who are lurking a lot harder. Does anyone even remember that there are players in this game with the usernames "SerialClergyman" and "iamausername"?

vote: iamausername

While you are correct about this, your deflection of the BridgesAndBaloons wagon is noted.

This is my first forum mafia experience and I don't want to start it out being wrong and lynching an innocent person. I'm trying to be overly cautious.

Don't be afraid to be wrong. Heck, I've even been wrong once or twice before. (Read that as: many, many times.) At some point, you have to give it your best guess, and find out if you're right or wrong. Don't give in to analysis paralysis! (AP will be the topic of my next essay on mafia play.)


I still <3 the BridgesAndBaloons wagon and support getting a claim from her before we string her up.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, answering your question - I think that staying back and "listening" without contributing, for the sake of "gathering information" is scummy if you never return that information you supposedly got back to the town - and it doesn't really seem that you will.

Sure, I will.

I thought it was fairly obvious what I was talking about, but let me spell it out; if either elvis or KMD is scum, we get a ton in information from how that unfolded.

For example, if KMD is scum, then I would think it very likely that at least one of his scumbuddies was here:

...
elvis_knits: 5 (BridgesAndBaloons, Claus, Herodotus, Kmd4390, zu_Faul)

Considering that wagon was primarally "elvis is scummy for attacking KMD", I would competly expect KMD's hypothetical scum buddies to be going after Elvis for that.

It is a great excuse for scum not to contribute. "Oh, no, I'm not talking because... yes, I'm observing, yes! hehehe". All of this counts double coming from you, who I see as contributing a lot as town, and "sits back and observes" a lot as scum.

(shurg) I was contributing, I thought. I just wasn't talking about the Elvis/KMD/B&B three-way fight much, because I didn't really agree with any of those arguments, but at the same time didn't want to defend any of the three of them.

[roflcopter]

extreme cautiousness and fear of the mislynch seems like a perfectly natural response to one's first game of forum mafia. i'm not seeing shabba's skittishness as scummy.

meanwhile, qft thesp's point re: herodotus. this late in the bridge wagon his vote really sticks out as an attempted counterwagon to save bridges and nothing else. you can't really expect to have a lurkerwagon go anywhere when we've already got a legitimate wagon practically at the bursting point.

You think both saw each other's response and backed eash other up?

yes. slip ups look more like natural reactions if multiple people profess to having the same reaction. in this case, i think bridges was trying to save kmd's patootie by saying he had the same initial idea.

and paying attention during the signup process or not, everyone looks at the first post of the game, everyone should know how many players there are. a lot of players (stupidly) don't read all the rules and sample roles thoroughly, as we've now seen since these scum didn't know how many scum were possible on a scumteam, but everyone at least looks at the player list.

[VP Baltar]

First thing first: Happy birthday, inHimshallibe!

If I were to join one of the big wagons, it would probably be the Xyl one, but I'm in no rush at the moment.

Why are you even worried about joining "one of the big wagons"? Shouldn't you just be voting for whoever you think is most scummy at this point? It's not like we have an approaching deadline.

charter is town. elvis is town. people need to stop voting for elvis. that wagon is full of scum and sheep.

Based on what? I'm aware of your tendency to make statements like this early in the game, and you are often right, but I'm not seeing these two this early in the game. I'd appreciate a little more explanation.

Really? "4 scum plus a traitor" was supposed to be sarcastic? I didn't get that at all. Has that been what others have been assuming all along?

It seemed to me like he was probably just being kind of rude because you were pushing him about his number of scum statement. I find it a bit ridiculous to assume that a player as good as kmd would out the number of his scum team in the opening moments of the game. I almost never put any stock in "slips", however.

Your phrasing is putting the cart ahead of the horse. My reason for not commenting on everything is not scum-motivated. I prefer to focus on the things that I think really matter. At this point, there are more things worth paying attention to.

It's not that I expect you to comment on everything (I certainly don't), but I just don't like the preemptive 'Imma gonna lurk' vibe from that post.

Does anyone see this as overplayed?

Meh. Seems a bit null for alex to me.

I add Shabba to my list of suspects for that post because #1 is scummy as hell and because she asks for four people's opinions on wagons but has given no opinion on anyone herself.

^I tend to agree with this assessment of that particular post.

Repeating a simple word over and over may be a vice from me being ESL.

Ok.

I just want to reiterate the fact that you're voting me for something that's not "necessarily scummy, but it's questionable."

I'm not sure what your problem with this is. Seems to me like he is saying it has the potential to be a scummy action.

Some of this BnB stuff is becoming a bit muddled for me as I'm going along here. This is the usual setback I find with larger games and lots of competent players, a million lines of questioning happening that lose focus. I can already tell this is going to be a long game.

Shabba suspicions have some grounds, but I agree with whoever (I think zu_faul) said that she may just be noob town since this is her first forum mafia game. More posts from her to analyze would be best, imo.

Considering that wagon was primarally "elvis is scummy for attacking KMD", I would competly expect KMD's hypothetical scum buddies to be going after Elvis for that.

An interesting point, but only to be filed away for later methinks.

________________

tl,dr

Bridges is a reasonable enough wagon for D1, though I would hope we can put the brakes on a little bit until some of the more background players (ekiM, iamausername, SerialClergyman, etc) weigh in and answer some questions.

That being said, Bridges needs to claim in his next post before someone comes in with judo-quickhammer action.

[Xylthixlm]

SerialClergyman - I have no memory of what this person has done

I remember that he random voted me in my first post for something related to another ongoing game.... but no memory of anything else.

[mith]

Mod Note:

iamausername and SerialClergyman have been prodded.

[iamausername]

@IAUN - so you don't like the Xyl wagon. What about BaB, E_K and Kmd?

KMD wagon is totally bogus, the "there are 4 scum" is just an extension of the "these people are scum" which is a legit way to get out of random voting by acting surer of things than one has any actual reason to be.

I'm not sure that elvis being overzealous about the slip is actually scum-motivated though, I can believe that she honestly thinks it was a slip. I'm much more suspicious of rofl buying the supposed slip as a slip, because I'm pretty sure he pulls that opening gambit all the time.

BaB wagon is well deserved for this:

Originally my thinking was that E_k seems like a more legitimate vote, but if I made the vote this early, it wouldn't have as much merit because it's so early, and I wanted to make this vote when it had more merit.

which is difficult to interpret as anything other than "elvis didn't have a ready-formed wagon for me to jump onto".

ITP I am not voting for Xyl.

Why not?

I liked my vote where it was, alex saying "we must be careful not to post fluff", and then posting some really obvious fluff was scummier than anything Xyl had done at that time.

@iamausername:
Other than announcing that you didn't vote for Xyl in your last post, do you have any opinions on anyone?

At the time of that post, not particularly. Now, yes.

He's encouraging alex to setup speculate

No. Asking what the point of saying "I have some setup speculation, but I'm not going to actually post it because setup speculation is bad" is =/= "Hey alex, you should post that setup speculation!"

iamusername: what does ITP stand for?

In this post.

As far as Shabba is concerned, there are multiple players who are lurking a lot harder. Does anyone even remember that there are players in this game with the usernames "SerialClergyman" and "iamausername"?

True dat.

I don't have internet at home right now, and the site went down right in the middle of my last visit to the internet cafe, thus preventing my planned catch-up post on friday. I will have a connection back sometime in the next few days, but until then, yes, I'll be pretty lurky. Nothing I can do about that.

Unvote, Vote: roflcopter

, but I totally support a BaB claim.

[Yosarian2]

First thing first: Happy birthday, inHimshallibe!

If I were to join one of the big wagons, it would probably be the Xyl one, but I'm in no rush at the moment.

Why are you even worried about joining "one of the big wagons"? Shouldn't you just be voting for whoever you think is most scummy at this point? It's not like we have an approaching deadline.

Meh. THe bigger a wagon is, the closer it is to a lynch, the better a reason you need to join it, IMHO. At the time, I didn't have enough reason to join any of the big wagons, although I was indicating which one I would join if it came close to deadline.

Anyway, it's since changed. I think the most likely scenerio here is that B&B is scum and Xyl is town, for reasons I explained yesterday.

Bridges and ballons: I would highly reccomend both answering my question and, if you wish to claim, to do that in your next post, and to not take too long before you make that next post.

Tag fixed. - Mod

[charter]

I am not sold on BAB's townieness, but I don't think she deserves the spotlight she is currently getting.

Why not?

Because there are players who are actually doing scummy things.

Can you tell me which players you think these are?

BaB wagon is well deserved for this:

Unvote, Vote: roflcopter, but I totally support a BaB claim.

rofl is one of the people pushing hardest against BAB, so how can you think the BAB wagon is deserved and want a claim from him AND vote for rofl? Why are you voting for him? This really doesn't make a bit of sense to me, it's like you're trying to join the BAB wagon, but you aren't actually doing it.

Thesp, who is your number two suspect and why?

[BridgesAndBaloons]

page two of lynch all lurkers

page one of mafia 93

appeal to page number is a horrible, horrible excuse for anything

I agree. I'm not using it as an excuse.

I am not using appeal to page number to defend myself, I was using it to support why I don't think the E_k wagon or Xyl wagon will continue and turn into a lynch. So, that's why I don't consider those votes as trying as hard as one can to get lynched, because it's so early and lynches don't happen

that

early.

Now, you provided some interesting examples that sort of changes my mind, but after reading (I only read the first game) I see it was sort of an unusual situation -- Zwet who said something incredibly scummy and also threatened to lurk (super scummy because it was LAL mafia and lurking gave mafia extra NKs), and then threatened to self hammer. Anyways do you understand? I'm not using apeal to page number to defend myself, I'm using it to explain why I don't think actions that occur early in the day can really constitute "trying to lynch as hard as you can."

So,

Rofl:

please respond directly to this statement and tell me you understand what I'm saying.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

It was not merely that you voted him on page "x." This is the post that made me think you and xyl are prob not scum buddies:
[ . . .]
If however, you lynch Player B and he flips scum, and then you accuse Player A of bussing, you are screwing yourself hardcore. You are not only lynching a town player and a good one who has already lynched you scum, but you are creating a paranoid environment where other players can't trust each other, and where nobody can find scum without being accused of bussing.

You know what, I disagree with your idea, but now we're just pedantically arguing theory and that's kind of not helpful.

I'm curious: have you lost any games because you assumed someone was town after they bussed their partner?

[BridgesAndBaloons]

@BridgesAndBaloons: Could you comment on a wider variety of the players?

I'd love to but I'm spending all my time defending a case I still don't understand.

Hello!

I'm a bit too tired to post today, but I really would like to read and comment on the recent developments. So would you guys please avoid hammering BaB in the next 24 hours or so?

BaB, just in case you are quicklynched, could you give us a list of the 5 scummiest players in the game so far? Thanks!

Hm, there's probably at least one or two scum who are subtly joining the wagon on me. I'm not sure about which person it is, I need to think about this.

I'll get back to you asap.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Claim:

Vanilla Townie

Okay, before you'll lynch me I have a couple of things I'd like to see happen

• Give me time to properly defend the cases on me.
• Look into lurkers so we have more information on them going into the next day
• Give me time to finalize my list of scummy players

I'm saying all this so that we can have something to work on for tomorrow. Of course while I'd prefer not to be lynched, if I AM going to be lynched, then I want to generate as much information as possible.

Deadline is September 1

. Can you give me until August 28 at least? This seems fair. Town has nothing to lose from keeping me alive for a couple more weeks. If I turn up scum, just ignore everything I've said, OR use everything I've said to find scum partners.


This entire post sounds like a resignation that I'm being lynched, but I'm not necessarily giving up. Obviously I am going to defend myself, but if I learn that that will be impossible, I'll just focus on finding scum.

[roflcopter]

I'm much more suspicious of rofl buying the supposed slip as a slip, because I'm pretty sure he pulls that opening gambit all the time.

uh, what? what the hell gambit are you talking about?

page two of lynch all lurkers

page one of mafia 93

appeal to page number is a horrible, horrible excuse for anything

I agree. I'm not using it as an excuse.

I am not using appeal to page number to defend myself, I was using it to support why I don't think the E_k wagon or Xyl wagon will continue and turn into a lynch. So, that's why I don't consider those votes as trying as hard as one can to get lynched, because it's so early and lynches don't happen

that

early.

Now, you provided some interesting examples that sort of changes my mind, but after reading (I only read the first game) I see it was sort of an unusual situation -- Zwet who said something incredibly scummy and also threatened to lurk (super scummy because it was LAL mafia and lurking gave mafia extra NKs), and then threatened to self hammer. Anyways do you understand? I'm not using apeal to page number to defend myself, I'm using it to explain why I don't think actions that occur early in the day can really constitute "trying to lynch as hard as you can."

So,

Rofl:

please respond directly to this statement and tell me you understand what I'm saying.

can we just look for a second at what you said when you brought up page numbers in the first place?

Wait. Do you think day 1 vote before page 5 constitutes me "trying very hard to lynch one another?"

Do you

really

think that?

you are, very obviously, using the page number and nothing more to argue that we should essentially disregard what you did and draw no conclusions whatsoever about your relationship with xyl. i have provided examples of people trying as hard as they can to lynch on pages 1 and 2, and more could probably be provided, so your argument holds no merit whatsoever. just because you say that something happening before page 5 of a large game means it should be ignored doesn't mean i'm going to ignore it.

as for zwet being a special case, how scummy does one have to be in order to be a special case meriting a serious vote before page five that you intend to follow through to a lynch? this seems like an extremely arbitrary boundary, one that you've set up simply as a convenience so you can try to make everyone ignore the implications of you pushing a wagon on xyl in the early game.

It was not merely that you voted him on page "x." This is the post that made me think you and xyl are prob not scum buddies:
[ . . .]
If however, you lynch Player B and he flips scum, and then you accuse Player A of bussing, you are screwing yourself hardcore. You are not only lynching a town player and a good one who has already lynched you scum, but you are creating a paranoid environment where other players can't trust each other, and where nobody can find scum without being accused of bussing.

You know what, I disagree with your idea, but now we're just pedantically arguing theory and that's kind of not helpful.

I'm curious: have you lost any games because you assumed someone was town after they bussed their partner?

stop. this isn't about arguing theory, this is about the motivation

you

had to argue the theory in the first place.

lets look at the three possibilities here:
1 - you're town. you don't know xyl's alignment
2 - you're scum. you know xyl isn't
3 - you're scum. so is xyl

in case 3, you would keep your mouth shut and let everyone ride along with elvis' theory that you two can't be scum together. in case 1, you have no reason to argue against this theory because, not being scum yourself, you know that you

can't be scum with xyl

. only in case 2 do you have any motivation whatsoever to refute the idea that bridges and xyl can not be scum partners.

and what happened? you vehemently tried to (and continue to try to) refute the idea that you and xyl can't be scumpartners. i give you option 2, scum bridges and town xyl. thanks for playing.

[Kmd4390]

Iam, why Rofl?

Bridge, Rofl didn't say you were using AtPN to defend yourself. He said it's a bad excuse for anything. That means it's bad logic to say that EK and Xyl won't be lynched because their wagons were too early.

Saw the claim. I'm probably going to take flak for this, but I don't see scum fakeclaiming vanilla near a lynch on Day 1.

Unvote, Vote EK

Does anyone else get the vibe from Yos's posts that he is overexplaining himself and doesn't seem to be playing up to his normal level? Just something I've noticed. Not sure why.

New scumteam: EK, ekiM, Inhim, Yos, Xyl.