NY 174: Oldy Mafia 2 (Game Over)

[Porochaz]

vote glork

Weasel Mafia.

[Porochaz]

and snakes and ladders.

[Porochaz]

Not finding anything that Tigris did as scummy. MafiaSSK's response though is plain wrong, surely we are looking for reactions and what people do in response to the wagon, what information are you looking for if noone deviates from the wagon? It's a good basis to start with

unvote, vote MafiaSSK

[Porochaz]

Im going to be LA for the weekend.

[Porochaz]

Hello, drunk and in love with this aujron correct thing

now akk can undersdrand me.

Pppppppppp <- these are letter p's

[Porochaz]

Hi all,

My granny died today.

Am going to try and stay in the game, as A. I want to and B. it would suck massively if I wasn't since I looked to start it. But at the same time, I am going to play it by ear.

I hope thats ok and I hope not to disrupt things to much.

[Porochaz]

I agree with PJ's thoughts on MafiaSSK. It's a similar tell to the one I caught UT with in the last Oldy, though it's not as strong here. I also think Yos has decent points against VitR, though I'll withhold judgement on him until I see a response. In addition to those, the one person who stood out to me was chamber:

Yeaaah. I'm going to be less confident this game just because people have old styles, but that screams scum to me.

This to me is the scummiest post of the game so far. It's incredibly severe in its wording for page 2 ("screams scum") and at the same time cushioned by the "reduced confidence". He's preemptively giving himself an out on the grounds that people are hard to read. VitR challenged him on this and he defended his position on two occasions, and yet he dropped her completely to join the Seol bandwagon for reasons unknown (Tigris was at 6, Seol at 3).

vote: chamber

In other news, I found Tigris' response to my question to be reasonable and she looks decently town to me. Same goes for PJ and Yos and, to a lesser degree, StD.

Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure ABR is pulling reads out of his ass:

People I'm willing to lynch:

Petrolumjelly
Glork
LoudMouthLee

People I think are town:

DGB
VitaminR
farside22

DGB and farside town reads look particularly far-fetched.

I really hate this post (and the one after). I am not sure a lack of reasoning, especially from chamber is worthy of a vote. Particularly because I don't see a huge reason not to change at that point? 128 and 129 look very superficial, I don't see them as actual reasons for them being scum.

[Porochaz]

And in regards to CES, why should I not take his posts at face value? Or be able to analyze them for what they say? Where is the bright line drawn where I can analyze posts at their own value? 6 posts? 500+ word posts?

This made me laugh, would read again.

Seriously though, not sure what you are doing but your over analysing quite majorly. To an extent where I find it scummy. Im also not sure your last paragraph in 173 and your play so far match.

(Also weasel mafia is a long ago game that I am still "upset" about, thanks to Glork single handedly getting me mislynched - for those that are wondering)

[Porochaz]

Yeah Im not exactly in the mood for big huge posts but Ill try and keep up to date and post a little often.

[Porochaz]

I'm lurking.

Stop being an asshole.

[Porochaz]

I really hate this post (and the one after). I am not sure a lack of reasoning, especially from chamber is worthy of a vote. Particularly because I don't see a huge reason not to change at that point? 128 and 129 look very superficial, I don't see them as actual reasons for them being scum.

My issue with chamber has nothing to do with lack of reasoning. Please explain in more detail why you find those posts superficial. Apparently these are the only posts that stood out to you apart from MafiaSSK stuff in these first 12 pages. To call your scumhunting effort underwhelming would be an understatement.

I struggle to explain things like this. Like I know you explained why you thought it was scummy, but its more you gaining reasons from chambers wording rather than the thought process behind it. It seems too easy.

[Porochaz]

Funeral is on Saturday, I will be away from Thurday until at least then if not longer. I will try and look over stuff in the interim.

A lot of this is outwith my control, but I am sorry Im not currently able to give this game my full attention. If it carries on much longer I will replace out, but having never done so once in my history at mafiascum, its something I am loathed to do.

[Porochaz]

You keep calling Nat the VI wagon this game, but he wasn't. Nat was never going to get lynched for those votes, they were just forcing him to participate or replace out. The VI wagon this game has been an is on MafiaSSK.

I have kinda forgotten what has happened in this game, so I am due yet another reread, however I don't believe this is very fair, in that, personally at least, I am not voting him for VI reasons. I think the points I had against him were legitimate, albeit weak, ones. I do, and still wonder whether my initial reasoning was due to Seol's post just before it. I do find the latter half of 173, with the over-analysis, particularly the last paragraph.

Im 90% sure I've played with SSK before but not for a long time...

[Porochaz]

I feel cruel but

VOTE: Porochaz

Sorry mate

The game is the game

I can't complain. I realise its more a content vote than anything else, which has obviously been affected by my personal problems. But even before than I have struggled to get a hook on the game.

Im hoping that I can come up with a fresh perspective tonight when I reread or on Sunday when I return.

[Porochaz]

I don't get the Porochaz read, though. Why is he scum?

The combination of RL excuses and the posting style prior to said excuses smell of scum avoiding the game.

I was okay with your vote until this post. Im not really sure what you are trying to achieve with your vote.

Im also going to believe that "RL excuses" was just a poor choice of words.

[Porochaz]

So I am properly reading now and writing proper notes, which is something I haven't done in ages. I am at work atm, so shouldn't even be on site, so I'll post these later (Ive only done 3 pages worth anyway). However the main thing I've been looking at is the way Tigris made her vote, whilst her defence of her vote is valid, the way she made it was purely manufactured and she said as much. Whilst, I disagreed and still do with what SSK said initially in post 45, he does have a point about it just being another completely random RVS vote. In regards to my other point again ssk's overanalysing, I'll relook at it when I get to it, however for now...

unvote

[Porochaz]

Left my notes at work. However I explained my main points from the first 5 pages. Whilst I don't agree with some of what he says, I get M-SSKs points especially when he clarifies, Tigris on the other hand on reread has a very manufactured vote, sitting on this, Im not sure its very scummy. Post 42 is just meh, in that she explained that she was trying to get more info, but because she explained why, it doesn't work. It doesn't have enough behind it to give any info. I can't see a scummy reason why she would do this... It confuses me as I can see an inexperienced player doing this as a way of responding to pressure, but I don't view her as an inexperienced player.

Other thoughts,

Chamber would tell me that I can't read him, but from my point of view, he is playing to his town meta. But thats mainly from F2F mafia.

ABR is also playing to his town meta, from what I remember his town and scum game are completely different.

Farside made a terrible vote on chamber.

Yos is playing games which I don't particularly like. I remember him as a straight forward chap as town.

I disagree with Sottys 102 (apart from the ABR line) in its entirety.

There was a question I had for GC but for the life of me I have forgotten what it was.

[Porochaz]

In that you were asking VitR to guess the reason why you were voting him. My memory of you would be to be fairly "to the point" with your suspicions.

[Porochaz]

This is going to be annoyingly formatted, sorry.

Pages 6 - 10, quickly

This game was devised as oldy mafia, not respected mafia. There are people, myself included, who would be considered weak or "non noteworthy" in this game, but that wasn't the aim of this game. It's a peeve that has gone through this section of the game. Describing anyone as a weak player is insulting.

My initial point was against the case I made against CTD. I'm not changing my opinion on this one. I feel the posts 128 and 129, gave reasons which were not scummy and the voting pattern weird. The reasons themselves were only "he did this" and I am not sure there was any thought as to why chamber would use certain language if he is scum.

136 - Shanbas town, his playstyle is lighthearted, again its f2f meta, but this is my townmeta for him (although I want him to post more, because it makes me happy)

144 - Sotty makes another post I dislike, its WIFOM-y and I feel incorrect, I am not sure you can really garner much info from people attacking who they think is big player and who isn't.

@Sotty, Do you have any recent experience playing with SSK?

156 - This is one of the SSK posts that striked me as off, the CES case is not good. He has the basis of a point, but it's not a good one. But he has tried to fill in the gaps here and made a few jumps to make a case, it really isn't a good post. Furthermore, CES's playstyle in the quotes posted are not indicative of his alignment.

159 - Weasel Mafia was a joke.

162 - Seol/VitR - talking about "easy targets". I hate this phrasing. I'm not sure a town mindset would be describing players as easy targets. Maybe unless it was describing scum going after players, but he is talking about strong players.

179 - LML didn't answer the question. Which was my note about it. But its in the next section and has already been addressed, so I will get to it next time. In relation to this I have no experience of LMLs meta at all. If someone could help me in this regard it would be useful.

202 - Nats play was pretty prickish, but his Seol vote was bad beyond this. I hate that kind of sheeping.

208 is an interesting post from GC especially in regards to undo. I'm not sure how undo could have missed GC's reasoning for agreeing with Yos's case on VitR. In any case, GC is correct that undo is highlighting something that is not correct.

241 - I don't get Sotty's insistence on pushing GC's comparison between herself and VitR. It's lasted way to long as a point anyway and Im pretty sure its been explained to death.

244 - Is the first pjelly post I don't particularly like. The pushing of the weak player question, I am unsure why this is relevant to the game in hand. (again, there is some of my own insecurities coming into play here). I don't like his interaction with Glork, 3a means nothing and 3c is overly aggressive and unhelpful.

I do however agree with his stance on SSK in regards to CES, but that is explained above.

7. Is a bit naff to be honest, the FOS came a bit out of nowhere. But I see in the next section its retracted so meh.

248 - OMGUS. really?

This is the most I am going to be able to do for now. As I will be busy with the funeral and will be in no mood to be on site. I am back on Sunday but obviously I might not be back until slightly later as I reckon it's going to be tough.

Thanks for all your support by the way, it's been tough.

Back to the game, the problem I see with this way of writing notes is that I've got little bits of scumminess from a lot of players and I haven't been able to refine that into something more substantial. I have a lot of suspicions so far but not enough for me to feel good about placing a vote. That said Im guessing that will change more as I read the last 8 pages... (+/- the 10 or so pages you add in the interim)

[Porochaz]

As its almost one, Im not going to get back on the PBPA until I get some sleep (and possibly/after during work - depending on if they found my notes on the first five pages), however I do want to respond to yos

In that you were asking VitR to guess the reason why you were voting him. My memory of you would be to be fairly "to the point" with your suspicions.

So you're suspicious of me because I was stirring shit up and trying to create pressure and get reactions during a time when most of the rest of the town was still just random voting? That seems like a strange reaction on your part, especially for you to bring up now. Isn't trying to get reactions like what I was trying to do with vitR obviously helpful to the town at that stage of the game?

Firstly, its one point. I haven't developed a case on you, just something that interested me early on. I wasn't ever going to vote you for it, particularly when there is a number of people that are more interesting than you at the stage Im at. (like Sotty, Tigris, MSSK etc) Look the way I see it, it doesn't matter the way you format it to get the reactions however the way you did it, is not what I expect from you. The way you tried to get reactions is by making VitR make a case on himself? I'm not sure how that works?

The reason I bring it up now is because Im bringing everything up now. My gameplay works on getting a hook and digging in with it, I play better when that happens. This is what I am trying to do currently.

What interests me now, is you decided to make a thing out of it, more of a thing than I was ever going to make (unless you suddenly become uber scummy in the next 10 pages, which I doubt judging by the votecount) and you acknowledged it when I expected you to ignore it (which lets face it, most other players have). Which is all a lot more interesting to me than the initial point itself.

[Porochaz]

@Porochaz, is there any reason that I shouldn't think that you're spewing some superficial reaction to the game now that you've got some votes on you? I know that you're busy and have other things on your mind, but you've got enough experience at mafia that there's no way you should have expected a post by post analysis to give you a concerted read on players which is what you should really be interested in if you're town and trying to find scum. Right now I'm seeing effort to show effort, but I'm not seeing town who cares about the game.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I explained this a bit in the yos post. I work best with a hook. I don't disagree that it might not be the best way to work, but when I am in a position where I am unable to get into the game for a variety of reasons, making notes by using a PBPA and then consolidating that by user, seems as good a way as any to try and at least be able to make a concious effort to try and start conversations off as a start (like, for instance the one with yos) and if I can find something or someone who is consistently scummy then I think it is a worthwhile activity. I want to be involved and I want to be able to make informed decisions which I don't think I currently can do.

I don't particularly care about your vote, I do think it's premature, without a fair basis but at the same time, all you have made me want to do is prove you wrong, your reason is for lack of content then later posting content for contents sake. I feel as Sotty says, damned if I do, damned if I don't here. I mean your votes fair if I don't do anything beyond post these notes or don't join in conversations afterwards. But I am not finished yet. I think it would be more foolish of me to try and give opinions on subjects I have no full knowledge of than trying to reground myself within this game.

[Porochaz]

Phew Pages 11 to 15 done.

251 - 254. This was a weird one, between ABR and VitR. I like both of them, however this exchange was weird for me, like they were collectively deciding who to vote for.

255 Was a interesting yos post. So much so that I actually went and looked up undos iso. He really hasn't posted anything of value.

258 Basically I wanted a proper read off of him of other players, after yos's post and I didn't get it. I don't really have any clue at what he is thinking this game and he isn't making any effort to correct that. (more on this later)

278, I don't mind 278 I think its fair enough, but 280 afterwards was shite. He defends himself by attacking other players for being on weak wagons, but doesn't defend himself. Its very much a "yeah... but these guys did it too!" approach.

291 GC reiterates the question to LML he asked in 179.

297 Petroleumjelly has pushed the strong/weak thing for too long. It's getting nowhere, I mean, his point I get, but its time to move on... I would like a more general picture of his outlook on the game as I am struggling to see past his SSK suspicions (apart from the Glrok point)

298 Undo makes another post with little suspicions, at this point in the game, I'd be happy to vote undo. He needs to start making some reads.

302 I'm really not sure LML answered Green Crayons question. Im interested in his current suspicions of SSK, which is what GC asked in the initial question and I still dont have an answer to what is a relatively simple question!

305 Im not sure what to think anymore. All the votes and FoS's are extremely weak. It feels like pulling teeth trying to get a straight answer out of him.

308/309 ABRs recent posting is making me rethink my stance...

316 was a good post from VitR, has consolidated my townread on him.

319 LML reiterated the weak reasoning, I don't particularly have a problem voting for him at this stage.

332 SSK reappears, he disappeared fairly conveniently

341 undo asks an already answered question to UT, quite clearly already answered as well. In fact all of 341 is as scummy as hell, and whats more there is still no damn reads from him.

371 (and 4) was yet another poor vote from LML, talks about VI wagons (nat, which is total bullshit) and opportunistic early wagons... bleh, it just seems so arbitrary.

That was more productive. 2 clear scumreads in LML and undo.As of page 15, happy to vote either, but will finish reading before casting a vote.

[Porochaz]

I will say, I have also expressed suspicion on LML, but have yet to finish my reading. I plan to do a large chunk (if not all of it) just now.

[Porochaz]

Page 16

At the risk of not writing anything down the whole page, yos has given me major town vibes this section. (especially this page) he has posted things as I've thought them which makes it annoying for me on my reread. Post 399 by LML makes me no happier with him. The only other thing of note was Save the Dragons point on Zor replacing in. He would have read the thread at the very least on a neutral ground so to put too much focus on his rereads, is meh.

As an aside, cause I've just thought of it now. (ie. its not in my notes) there was no posting from SSK or undo in this section. As such a lot of my notes are based on LML (as I believe others are as well). I worry about it, even though undo announce his v/la, because Im pretty certain my vote will go on LML at this point (spoilers). However, I should be aware that just cause I have no notes on those two, doesn't mean there shouldn't be notes on those 2 especially since I find them suspicious. (and CTD)

UT as well, but then hes playing similarly to his meta in the game I just played with him and he hasn't done anything that has me worried...

Page 17, its worth noting that in regards to me at least the spreadsheet has an error. Im not sure about anyone else. As others have said, this is quite an obvious replacement to any scumhunting. It seems very easy, and I believe it's what LML is doing, to use it to have an easy well of information to make baseless cases and use it to go "look the spreadsheet tells me so". At this point in the game, you could probably twist anything out of that spreadsheet and call it a reason for voting.

Sotty is a pain for me. No offence. I have a gut scum read on you, a lot of your early posts striked me as off, and it was a post on page 17, (I didnt write down many post numbers in this section) that made me go "there are a lot of good points in here". My gut is usually wrong, I've learned not to listen to it in recent games. But I am struggling to get beyond the initial "here's a scum post" mindset. 411/412 were the posts, it's very clear your thought processes are in the scumhunting mindset.

PJ made post 417, and looking back on it now, hes not coming to the conclusion I came to but we are on the same lines, but Im noticing a hypocrisy with LML that he has voted both Tigris and StD (and FoS'ed SSK) with his stance on the Nat policy wagon. I don't really get his impetus for those votes. Especially because his latter play has been more about this analysis than actually scumhunting. 371 where he states vote reads are more important than tell reads day 1 doesn't match his earlier play.

I think that came out garbled...

Page 18,
GC's point on Zorblags question being a loaded one is a good point. I'm not happy with page 19's response either. He knows he has been called out on what was a blatantly scummy question and goes more on the attack, 460 is a particularly bad post. There are better ways of seeing if someone is paying attention. What is the town motivation in asking that question the way he did?

428, Glorks post, makes me sad as well. Because I disagree with a lot of it. I don't know how he got almost a 180 on my reads at this present moment... whereas yos's 434 sums up my feelings perfectly in regards to LML

My point in 442 against yos, whilst I think fair, is null and void at this point, considering yos has been playing exactly how I expect him to for the past few pages. I do still think the fact that he made a bigger deal of it than necessary but had I read the whole thread I wouldnt have made the point, I guess it highlights a problem with reading the way I am.

Page 19, LML's point 1 is simply wrong. Others have said it. However he

must

know its wrong, a large amount of votes wouldn't be lynching votes, context in regards to votes is everything and especially this early on, negating that is so bad. However, I've spent so much time on this already.

Hey, it's Booky. Missed you. <3

Also highlights I've forgotten seol was in this game.

Unfortunately Booky, seems to have missed the case on LML. It's not the VCA thats particularly scummy, its the of combining that with anything else and the conclusions he comes to. (I think UT said similar.

Page 20, Im not sure if its because Im not as engaged as usual but there isn't much here. I can't pin down any thoughts on PJ, the way he structures his posts should be ideal for me, but I struggle to make sense of them at times, but as such 485 is pushing me towards town with him. Im starting to see the thoughts behind what he is writing down, which makes me happy.

[Porochaz]

To me at least ABR is way more aggressive as scum. As town, he usually stays with the short one liners, not really getting overly involved but still at least contributing a little. The last game I see we played together: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
where he is playing similarly.

[Porochaz]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game

Posting this for future post.

[Porochaz]

Im trying to do this quickly as its 1.30am,

MSSK made a terrible reentry into the game and then replaces out, go figure. He has lurked for ages as well so Im not sure. Bleh.

510, Booky, I don't understand this post and I took a long time reading it. I initially read it as you think LML is town because Glork thinks so. I read it now as Glork is the only other person to make a similar point. Basically I don't understand what Glork has to do with it. (also its an outdated point, but I've typed it already)

513 amused me, Glork, despite defending LML, will lurkervote SSK, even though that would make him look uberscummy in LML's eyes.

The reason why SSK's replace out is so bad is because I really wanted an answer to pjs 518's question 1 about daytalk. It's a slip from SSK is I ever saw one. But hey, at least we got a response from LML. What its got to do with him, I don't know, but I am grateful.

page 22, pj seems increasingly pissed, and undo made a post I don't hate. yay.

page 23, booky makes a post by post (which I hope mine aren't as messy, but I know they are) which seems to go out of its way to implicate pj. 560.

page 24,not uninteresting but nothing worth commenting on

page 25 however was scummy. We will start with LML. Hence the link above. From my perspective normal games have become way too rigid with their roles in recent times. I remember a golden age of milk and honey where we were free to put busdrivers in our normals, one thing that is allowed and is considered normal is an encryptor. Furthermore, whats the motivation to answer this question in the first place?

Question 3 as well, the reason SSK got not heat recently, was because he wasn't around recently. So your basically giving him a free pass for disappearing when he was a suspect. That's good to know.

Let's move on to undo. I don't really know what to say, making a point against someone for their disposition is weak, not null but weak. But hey, your other points were okay on Booky. I mean your mathcam case was full of cut up sentences and twisted words, but your bookie case was okay.

Furthermore, (for it's my word of the day) you claim this is your better case, yet you go the other way because it has more momentum. Why? Are you not feeling strong enough in your convictions to push this new case? Fancy just sheeping and staying under the radar instead.

You know guys, this isn't a game where you are trying to top one anothers scumminess.

Other things on this page include Booky's AtE. Which makes me sad, because it only makes her scummier. And Mathcam wanted a good info lynch. Which i find scummy, but heaven forbid do I not want to get into another, information vs trying to find scum argument.

LML and undo are the two best votes here by far. I am not sure which way is better. SSK is third, although I want to read more on mathcam.

Almost done...

[Porochaz]

Forgot to say, congratulations on finally having an opinion undo!

[Porochaz]

Right Im shattered (posting last night at 1/2am) so apologies for this truncated thing.

The last section.

Page 26.

Bookys suspicions seem to be all the people who have some suspicions against them.

I also want to here Sottys case on Booky, because I've floated back over to the Sotty is scummy side. There hasn't been much pro-activeness on your end. I don't feel and with the accusations that you aren't reading the game, I want proof that you are.

Page 27.
The Green Crayons case in 653 was fun. Im not sure where rolefishing came from there.

I also don't understand why at no point during the Encryptor conversation, you didn't spend some time doing your research? The normal game has evolved over time, Im not sure why you thought it was going to be run a certain way...

657, MafiaSSK was lurking, how do you make a case against someone who isn't there? Your wasting your breath by doing so. Apart from anything else, there has been a lot of other things going on.

Furthermore your statement on LML doesn't make sense.

Rereading LML, I can't say that I've found anything unusually scummy from him.

I will say that his posting style has always left me feeling a little uncomfortable, but I'm pretty sure that this has happened as both town and scum. I will note that out of my entire read, there was no instances in which I marked him down with a particularly pro-town vote.

He'd probably be in my top-5-scummiest.

These aren't consistent.

661, feels like desperation from LML, passing the buck to CTD.

Page 28

In regards to ABR, I haven't played with him in years, Im going based on a memory. He does feel to be holding back a bit at the moment though.

Page 29, Glorks CES vote is a bit useless, especially since CES hasn't played outwith the meta I have of him. Im struggling with you Glork, because I don't think I've agreed with much of what you have said this game.

Page 30, my only note is about DGB. There is a difference between making short, concise posts and coasting along.

[Porochaz]

So I think if people have been reading my PBPA my scum suspects are pretty obvious. SSK and mathcam seem to be getting a free pass for lurking at the right time. I am not okay with that. Im also not okay with some of mathcams thoughts later on. Undo has been particularly bad but I look forward into getting myself stuck into that one tomorrow. At this point, because he just beat undo in the scumminess title race, and its supremely obvious that we have stalled over the last 10 pages. Certainly it has felt more strained the last 10 pages. Things about LML's play dont really add up. The excel spreadsheet, the VI wagons, the Encryptor...

vote LML

[Porochaz]

More Untrod Tripod votes please.

Glad you are posting effectively.

[Porochaz]

Let me answer a question with a question, (for now, I am leaving work) can you tell me in each of those situations where you legitimately scumhunted?

Because all of these look like excuses for scumhunting. The VCA removes context from the votes, the VI wagon wasn't ever going to end in a lynch, it was a clear content push and the encryptor talk is I think you mildly defending SSK. Im not even really sure where to start with that one.

[Porochaz]

More Untrod Tripod votes please.

Glad you are posting effectively.

Why, is my style opaque? Am I hard to understand? Do I look like I have a hidden agenda? Are my reads equivocal?

Am I asking all the right questions?...

Your reads mean nothing. Actually. You haven't given me enough to go on to determine your alignment therefore you post "lynch ut" or "DGB is town" mean absolutely nothing to me, why would I have any reason to follow you?

[Porochaz]

I can do LML, but why are we not doing Bookitty, STD?

This is the only post that gives me bad vibes from a quick skim of his iso. That and his posting style, which he did in a recent game I played with him where he was town.

There are a number of wagons that are better and let's face it, your iso wouldn't feed a starving camel either.

[Porochaz]

Djelibeybi? I do not know what this is?

[Porochaz]

I'm also worried that confirmation bias is a large factor in my suspicion of bookitty, but it's hard to internally audit for that.

Glrok's handling of the 'slip' feels most natural of those that posted around that time and seemed to switch because of it, to me anyway.

How incomprehensible was this post for others?

Out of the people to switch after the slip Glork's switch seemed the most okay.

[Porochaz]

So lets take a look at the lead up to LML's lynch...

Page 30 is where DGB changed her vote to UT.

"ISO him and find your own reasons"

A few days from deadline this is not really a good line to take. Either make your case and vote or move onto one of the better wagons. I don't even know what this is... she doesn't stop there either. Like a little annoying bird tweeting "vote UT" repetitively but without going further. She is actively trying to be useless. Then she changes her vote to KK who isn't a good vote, but has just had a vote put on him by Glork, interestingly LML changes his vote straight after. All 3 within the hour. (1 hour and 2 minutes) It looks really very much like a last ditch attempt to change the tide. Especially considering there is no reason whatsoever to be voting KK at this stage.

Then there is Glork, someone I've been uncomfortable with for a long time now. Although admittedly not necessarily scummy, there has been very little I've agreed with in his posts. Especially around the LML VCA discussion. There is also what seems to me a lot of needless over-defending and again their is wagon avoidance here. He joins the 11th hour KK wagon. After catching the "slip" the vote is still put on at great reluctance.

And finally Sotty, who despite having suspected LML all day doesn't ever vote for him and when he scum slips, suddenly turns town.

DGB is a difficult one, because she does have a unique style of playing, but there is only so many times I can go "yeah but it's the way she plays". Glork, on the otherhand, Im going "this isn't the way he plays... ever" and there are aspects of his play I find disturbing. I genuinely see a link between Glork and DGB as well. In day 1 and 2. The problem I am having is that it seems to obvious. Sotty is scummy too. Undo and mathcam as well from the previous day... I still really want to make my case on undo and will do, he seems to have been really far under the radar for a while and his posts when he was active haven't exactly thrilled me.

Anyway thats where I am. Glorks post 927 amused me a bit since he was one of the people voting KK.

meh, it's obvious but let's go with it.

vote DGB

Interchangeable with Glork.

[Porochaz]

I also think Glork needs a closer look. He's not impressed me so far and he stayed from LML almost all of the day, including with some really bad votes on CES and KK towards the end of the day.

Willing to look at glork too, the entire way the Freudian slip played out didn't ring true to me at all. Everyone's seen town make that (or very similar) mistakes.

Bookitty's looks the worst, and LML seemed hesitant to pursue that wagon all of day 1.

I meant this post *sweat*.

Sorry, was posted as a flyby to my other post.

You think Glork is worth further investigation because of the way he handled the slip but Bookie was worse for reasons.

[Porochaz]

I'll be waiting...

[Porochaz]

The mouse ran up the clock.
The clock struck one. The mouse ran down.

So you're not going to claim, but are you going to imply (i.e., essentially claim) you are a Doc(tor).

I would not suggest anybody give opinions on his claim, as doing so will only help scum hunt for power. Votes, please -- we have very little time.

The mouse ran up the clock.
The clock struck one. The mouse ran down.

When I see a riddle or a puzzle, my brain shuts down.

So you're not going to claim, but are you going to imply (i.e., essentially claim) you are a Doc(tor).

I would not suggest anybody give opinions on his claim, as doing so will only help scum hunt for power. Votes, please -- we have very little time.

We can still elect Untrod Tripod for TOWN MAYOR!!!

Looks like I raised someones ire.

Anyway I am unable to make as full a post as I like because work but considering pj explicitly stated what LML was doing in

the very next post

and you referenced it and pj's reply

2 posts later!

Even without knowing the rhyme - which you know, you could have looked up, but I'll accept you didn't - you can't miss it, it was in a post you directly replied to!!!

[Porochaz]

3 post later but still, same point.

[Porochaz]

considering pj explicitly stated what LML was doing in the very next post and you referenced it and pj's reply 2 posts later!

It made no sense to me, scum.

Do you know when things don't make sense to me, I ask!

Did it not occur to you to ask where PJ got the doc fakeclaim from?

I mean from someone who doesn't understand the rhyme, surely that would be the first thing you would ask?

[Porochaz]

Hey, it shows you noticed the damn thing.

Want to get your story straight DGB?

[Porochaz]

So you're not going to claim, but are you going to imply (i.e., essentially claim) you are a Doc(tor).

I would not suggest anybody give opinions on his claim, as doing so will only help scum hunt for power. Votes, please -- we have very little time.

Just going to quote that whole post where PJ states there was a fakeclaim of doctor and then suggests not to give opinions.

I mean I've quoted it before, so Im repeating myself, but I do so for the reason that he told you exactly what happened.

And yes, he does say "don't give opinions" but there is a difference between "opinion" and "explanation"...

So anyway...

Onto your 5 buddies question.

Let me start off by saying, a game of this size, 5 buddies is a bit ridiculous - 4 if we include LML. I've already stated you and Glork seem to be quite good together and I've also expressed suspicion on undo, mathcam and Sotty. Which by the way, if we are going in to your "case" against me goes against your claims that I am being wishy-washy, but alas, thats for a different post.

[Porochaz]

I will give you an easier question,

Can you list 5 things you have done that have helped the town in any way?

[Porochaz]

Holy crap its been a shitty day and mafia is the last thing on my mind but...

Do you really think DGB is scum because she didn't look up a nursery rhyme?

Please don't make me sad asking awful questions... in no way do I think DGB is scum for not knowing a nursery rhyme, I think I made that clear. PJ extracted the information out of the post before DGB posted.

Not much interesting has happened in the interim. GC's case is a good one but then that might be my bias due to already thinking he is scum coming into play.

That does not suitably convey how ludicrous it was that you thought you would reveal your cop suspicion.

ABR is so obvious, Sherlock. I didn't "reveal" anything.

Also you're scum with a guilty on you so.

Yet you didn't see the fakeclaim that you quoted and the person saying "oh, thats a fakeclaim" that you also quoted.

how has undos post not gotten more criticism?

I haven't posted yet, but you could have done.

I find it underwhelming, I don't particularly want to go through the stats because I get the feeling they are arbitrary and won't tell me fuck all and after all of that, there is still no fucking reads from our perennial fence sitter.

Anyway, Im going to try and do the undo case tonight. At this present moment in time, I care more about lynching DGBscum but hell, undo is awful at the moment and someone needs to grab him by the balls.

[Porochaz]

Edit to clarify GC's case on Glork.

[Porochaz]

I kinda wandered down a parallel alley to my point. The point

[Porochaz]

Did I ever mention how much I hate the submit button being before the preview one? Many times. Ok.

The point I was trying to make was that PJ already interpreted it and had made the point of the fakeclaim which DGB then responded to, which was scummy. The rhyme is really neither here nor there.

[Porochaz]

So the case on undo -

I'd almost call it active lurking, he has been playing deliberately under the radar this whole game.

He makes no reads whatsoever. Even when he is posting "scumhunting" posts as he did recently, there was no reads there.
There isn't really any follow up to his questions, some like the question to GC in 203 or the question to UT in 341. The questions themselves aren't really designed to be scumhunting, with most of them, there is no opinion to back anything up, no reasons as to why the question was asked.
There is a lot of fence sitting generally.

When he finally does give reads (on page 22 onwards) he never follows them up... he plonks them down and move on.

He does make an extremely weak case on Bookie (post 602), based on her nervous disposition. Basically at this point, he's looking for an excuse. In the same post an equally bad case on mathcam where he quotes things out of context and twists things to make a case out of what is basically nothing. Mathcam calls him on it. In the end the decision of who to vote for does not lay in who he finds scummier (mathcam) but who has more "momentum" (ie. parking the vote)

His posts in day 2, (all 3 of them) are looking at peoples interaction with LML, a topic which has already been drunk dry. His new "insightful" analysis, doesn't add anything knew, gives townreads without giving any scumreads and arbitrarily gives them points for I'm not sure what? Anyway, it's fluff for the sake of fluff, at this point I couldn't give a rats ass about points and stuff, I just want straight reads, I want him to bloody well vote, get into a dialogue. etc.

---

I am disappointed with this case, I thought I had a lot more to put into it. Still, it's difficult to do that when I can't go "I disagree with the way he interacted with player X" because he didn't meaningfully interact with them. Or "I found that vote scummy because..." because he hasn't put down any meaningful votes. Or "His analysis is way off base" because he hasn't made any meaningful analysis.

[Porochaz]

I am disappointed with this case, I thought I had a lot more to put into it. Still, it's difficult to do that when I can't go "I disagree with the way he interacted with player X" because he didn't meaningfully interact with them. Or "I found that vote scummy because..." because he hasn't put down any meaningful votes. Or "His analysis is way off base" because he hasn't made any meaningful analysis.

I’m not going to apologize for my playstyle. If you find me difficult to read, try harder.

Well, basically, you don't have a playstyle. 51 pages and 28 posts void of content and empty questions is not a playstyle. Its flying under the radar and it's scummy and any deviations you have made from this are, guess what? even more scummy.

[Porochaz]

I don't get all the undo hate at all. When I display posts by user: undo, I see a lot of contributions. And I lol'd at

I’m not going to apologize for my playstyle. If you find me difficult to read, try harder.

In general, I hate this "surface reading" argument as a scumtell. I don't think undo's doing it, and when people do, I attribute it more to laziness than scumminess.

Can you give me a few examples of where he has contributed?

[Porochaz]

Can you give me a few examples of where he has contributed?

Just look at his posts. His third post of the game was a contribution. I don't know what you're expecting. If you're really serious about this, maybe you could do a comparison of how much you've contributed to how much he has.

I'm not particularly pro-undo, but I'm definitely anti-this-argument.

I can't say my content has been all that great, I admit that, but I do believe that as soon as I was able I was giving reads and hopefully, now some of you have a pretty decent read on me. I don't think that with undo.

Look, I think we're not going to agree here and as I think the DGB case is a better one to pursue at the moment this is a bit fruitless. It also gives undo more time to either make more posts like his last analysis post that admittedly wasn't that bad or more time to keep playing under the radar. Which I will be happy to bring up again and again... etc.

[Porochaz]

Yeah, okay. DGB, I think has done too much to not be scum, but an undo wagon still makes me happy.

vote undo

[Porochaz]

13 units of cider, sitting on a wall,
13 units of cider, sitting on a wall,
Thats not enough, to make Prozac fall.
So he will drink more and then post for you all.

[Porochaz]

17.2 units of cider, sitting on a wall...

[Porochaz]

15.2 actually. Maths is hard.

[Porochaz]

I had a point but its 4.30am and as you can imagine, Im quite drunk (although soberer than I thought I would be) so I will need to get sober Prozac to mention it tomorrow.

This useful post has come from drunkprozacinc.

[Porochaz]

Not very well atm. Ill try and make a proper post tomorrow.

[Porochaz]

I got bored during that reread and it wasn't the most in depth rereading of all time, I'll try and go back over it at some point. MBL Im not sure you are going to get that mathcam read any time soon, I haven't felt overly bad things about him in a while. ABR might be more interesting now, seeing as beyond old playstyle Im not remembering why I thought he was town. But...

The big issue for me here is, I don't see the big deal in DGB's analysis post. I don't think it's indicative of alignment and I certainly don't think it forgives her past transgressions. Her case on PJ isn't very good, and neither is the wagon that followed. I don't think I know any of your reasons for going for it beyond it being the new "flavour of the week". However I do agree with DGB that the people on the sidelines gauging opinion first, not exactly a town reaction there.

So let me be clear, I won't be voting PJ. My read on him is not the best, I struggle with him, that is my problem however and not his. What I do note though is that I don't have anything outstanding on him and with a fuckton of better votes - undo, glork, DGB, not only do I see little reason to change my vote, I worry about those who have.

[Porochaz]

I don't think I know any of your reasons for going for it beyond it being the new "flavour of the week".

Just another clarification, because my English is not very good, being from the UK and all... Im talking to the wagon after rather than DGB herself.

[Porochaz]

Oh, thats interesting, Glork, DGB and ABR are the ones who voted. Taking undo out of the equation thats the three next biggest wagons. Also 3 of my 4 scum suspects.

And UT, who has done virtually nothing interesting this whole game.

[Porochaz]

Hey Glork, DGB, if LML were still here the wagon deflection close to deadline would just be like old times!

[Porochaz]

unvote vote DGB

[Porochaz]

Page 61...

bleh.

unvote vote glork

[Porochaz]

GC, that was a truly awful case.

[Porochaz]

Im quite happy to look at CES (and others) tomorrow. ABR as well. At this point I've made my feelings clear as to who I am happy to vote for. Will stick with that until deadline.

[Porochaz]

Well, lets make it a realistic thing.

vote DGB

[Porochaz]

aaaaaaaaand we're splitting the wagons again

good work team! this can't possibly fail!

I am waiting for you to you know, contribute. That way you can have a justification for your whining.

[Porochaz]

Yos putting Poro in the obv town slot reminds me:

@Poro

Yesterday at deadline you weren't active in thread, but invited me to play skype mafia. Why weren't you active in thread?

Because I was playing skype mafia.

I did check the thread before deadline but lynch had been reached.

[Porochaz]

As I said before, I want to look at some different players today. I have a short list of people I need to look at.

Also now Glork has flipped town I need to look at DGB again.

However I have spent 25 of the last 48 hours at my workplace and I need to see my bed or I might cry a bit.

[Porochaz]

Apologies, work has been crazy the last few days, 12 hour shifts and Im going to be away at the weekend. I'll try and pop a proper post tonight, (and on the trains there and back if I have internet).

[Porochaz]

Ok so it appears that I didn't get this done, which sucks, so let me go through a summary of where Im at, and hopefully the internet on the train is working tomorrow.

So, my thoughts are mainly centred around DGB and her Glork interactions. The points against her are still there, the cop thing, the UT case, the KK switch late day 1. Im not going to deny that Glork being town weakens my case on her slightly, but I think there are still issues there. I'm interested (but also very likely going to be quickly bored) by the scumputer posts, its never really something I understood, but I seem to remember it being flawed. Whats more completely subjective, whilst throwing thousands of numbers out to hide that fact. Especially since this marks a huge change in posting style from DGB. Anyway, Im going into her posts today with scepticism.

ABR is the other person mainly in my thoughts. He has come off really badly the last couple of days, and I think my initial read on him was wrong. There are a few things off hand I noticed, when I questioned my read before, 1498, I noticed that he mentions me (the only time in the game thus far) in 1556 trying to gauge others opinions on me. Which felt really weird, but whilst I don't have the time right now, I saw him do it again with someone else. However there is more than that here. I need to get off the pot here and actually try and work out why I feel really badly about him, and why he seems to have wormed his way into some sort of townie position when he hasn't done anything, as far as I can see, to warrant it.

VitaminR/CES, are third, VitaminR because I get the feeling every single time someone makes a case on CES it is VitaminR who responds, to the extent that I don't think CES has ever really gone on the defensive at all or even answered to any suspicions of himself. Which as I have played with CES a relatively large amount myself, isn't overly unusual but I am still waiting for that "CES" moment, where you make some insight or something, that is worth something. It's frustrating that you haven't done things yet (things being undefined) and I do get the feeling you are deliberately taking a back seat.

That is where I am with my main thoughts. More reading needs to be done.

[Porochaz]

Had a guy talk my ear off on the train for 3 hours about how noone wants to hire him (I can guarantee it's attitude) The only time I did have was to look at ABR briefly. Im not sure how I feel still, he pushes heavily without much in the way of content, and reflecting Im not sure how scummy that it. However his interaction with DGB are cause for concern day 2. Because I don't really understand what was going on, but it feels weird. (the cop "claim" etc.) Their back and forth whether each of them is scummy or not...

[Porochaz]

I finished my last large in 68 pages.

chamber, Sotty, Porochaz, I have no idea what their stances are off the top of my head.

You should read my posts.

[Porochaz]

You know, I've been getting accused of 'buddying' chamber/CES since Day 1. What would you do if you thought you knew two players well and had strong reasons to think each of them town? Defending them is the

pro-town

thing to do.

If anyone thinks I'm getting something out of this, they're wrong. Neither chamber or CES is ever going to think any better of me for defending them. Both of them will tell you that they almost never definitively read me as town. They're both way too wary of my scumplay.

I'd like to think I know CES at least somewhat. I'm not sure he has done anything remotely townie.

[Porochaz]

To be honest I know your opinion on CES but at some point he is going to actually have to start speaking for himself.

[Porochaz]

Do both kills feel remarkably odd to anyone else? They are very very safe.

UT smells of vig gun powder.

Thanks vig. You did your job.

Badly? UT was town...

[Porochaz]

Mathcam comes in, decides to leave vote on CES at first. Then moves over to the BooKitty wagon. He then tries to argue that BooKitty's resignation post was probably scum motivated. He tries to imply that the BooKitty wagon would be especally informative somehow, but when I questioned him about this, he didn't seem to have a good answer for how.

This quote by Yosarian also supports my mathcam-Bookitty theory.

Yosarian, back me up on this

, and tell me why VitaminR deliberately making posts that don't attract attention to him isn't scummy, why his defense of mathcam isn't scummy, and more importantly, why does his votes produce little more than a fizzing sound of a balloon losing air?

PJ, undo, help me

, so that I can help my case, and get some scums lynched.

My strongest town read besides the masons, is Green Crayons.

GC, what do you have to say about my theories?

I finally worked out what has pissed me off about your play. You keep looking for approval for things. You did it in regards tome, you did it at least once before that , and you are doing it here in every single one of these posts. Why do you need so much approval/

In case your interested in my thoughts on your theories, they weren't really up to much.

[Porochaz]

UT wasn't a policy lynch, not unless you are going to look at people like chamber, CES, undo, sotty and hell, myself as well.

[Porochaz]

Falling asleep again. Hope Sotty posts something interesting between page 78 and wherever this ends up.

[Porochaz]

The ABR votes around page 80 (where I am at) are bad, I mean his votes, not votes on him. He goes from being super aggressive and tunnel visioned to being careless with his vote.

Then there is DGB, who I have decided is scum independent of Glork. You took advantage of him. The more Im reading the more I am realising the scumputer in this game is yet another fluffy thing, just in long form for once. Im not even sure it matches with your reads. The UT argument is a good one.

Chamber and CES are really frustrating me and it makes me a sad panda. I'd quite happily vote them right now, if I thought it would get them to produce an ounce of something useful...

[Porochaz]

See, I don't know your read on DGB at all, like one second I think you think she is town, the next scum. Can you explain the evolution of the read on her because I just don't get it?

Also it appears that my internet has decided to pack itself in, so Im hijacking a neighbours.

[Porochaz]

Have you considered her scum all game?

[Porochaz]

Scummy yes, scum, not every moment of the game, no.

Hmm, my thoughts of your inconsistencies with DGB are not as big as I thought. I am not particularly happy that you decided to take her analysis "deal" as golden. (before the scumputer) However you do seem to think she is scummy after a certain point, and haven't moved yourself from that position but your theories on vitr, mathcam and bookie made me think you had abandoned your suspicions on DGB.

I have noticed in this reread though that the opposite is true in that DGB's read on ABR seems to vary massively.

Anyway, at page 80, I was thinking there was no good reason why I wasn't voting DGB.

There is a lot of aspects of her play that don't add up well, which I have discussed previously. Things like the scumputer and the analysis post seem to only appear when she has suspicion mounting against her and judging by her initial vote on mathcam and her lack of suspicion on sotty she doesn't have much faith in the results herself.

[Porochaz]

bleh,

vote dgb

[Porochaz]

At this point, I've not seen any good reason to move my vote off of DGB onto whatever wagon of the moment there is.

[Porochaz]

Tell me then, why are you voting Sotty?

[Porochaz]

Without using the words

"Scumputer" or "mathcam"

and the phrase

"told me so"

[Porochaz]

Lets think about this one for a few seconds hmmm?

[Porochaz]

I was voting you, have no impulse to change. Voting sotty now is pretty bad, even for you.

[Porochaz]

Jesus sometimes the stupidity is so massive that I wonder if its me.

[Porochaz]

Urgh, could the people still voting sotty read the last number of posts again.

[Porochaz]

And of course she's a mason, just as I said, and chamber is still voting for her. Congratulations chamber, and mathcam, you outted a mason. PJ, you did a horrible job of defending Sotty and made it obvious that she was a mason with a defense that didn't make any sense and convinced me that you didn't know what the heck you were talking about because I've been playing with Sotty for as long as you have and knew that you were lying about your meta defense on her. Now if we can put that aside, we can focus on lynching Yosarian.

Really? Your going to take the high ground here? I mean he's not exactly subtle, and in case anyone didn't pick up on

the claimed mason saying he was sure someone was town

I also not so subtlety put it out there.

Anyway, just to deflate that balloon of yours, here is the collection of posts you made after pj's post before you changed your vote.

I also

strongly

urge the players voting Sotty7 to move their votes now. I do not claim to be confident somebody is Town lightly. This is not me just thinking Sotty7 is

probably

Town -- I am

sure

she is Town.

LEGGO SOTTY BWANWAGON

Lets think about this one for a few seconds hmmm?

No, we're at deadline. Vote for DGB, Sotty, or Yosarian. I think DGB is town, but other people don't, so there are your choices.

Wow they really are scumming it up to defend Sotty. We'll lynch them one by one after she flips scum. PJ will thank us for it.

"Your cause", mathcam? This is your case. Your cause. We've taken it up because it's strong.

PJ you’re off your rocker. First of all, there can’t be 6 scum left. Second of all, the Sotty bandwagon can’t be made up of mostly scum. That would be atrocious strategy. The Sotty bandwagon isn’t a counter-wagon to save a scumbuddy. It emerged naturally and organically following rigorous debate, discussion and consensus, among an active body of players. I was voting VitaminR, mathcam was reading the game, DGB was using her system, VitaminR was defending his friends and family, Spyrex was reading the game, yet we ALL ARRIVED AT THE SAME CONCLUSION. Granted, there may be one in the group bussing, or there may not be, but it’s a good bandwagon.

Unless, you, PJ, will go into more specificity and detail about why you think Sotty’s play runs parallel to your experience with her in another game, so that we can debunk your careless naiveté, you’re not giving us any reason to believe you or argue against you. Yosarian blindly sheeping you and praising your skill at reading players -which I respectfully disagree with- makes him definite scum.

[Porochaz]

ABR lynch would be fine with me at this point. The throwing shit to see what sticks routine has gotten old.

[Porochaz]

@Porochaz

Notice how my approach involved 1) defusing the Sotty bandwagon, 2) actively moving players on Sotty’s bandwagon to a new player that hasn’t seen pressure and 3) keeping Sotty in a suspicious position that would decrease her likelihood of being NK’d.

Let’s compare that with your approach of sitting on your hand and see who is more effective.

Thats all very well and good except you are still voting her and advocating her lynch over others. I mean I quoted a number of posts, I even missed one!

Mathcam expresses my exact thoughts quite eloquently. I think that had Sotty reacted in one of the pro-town ways that mathcam suggested, I may have been swayed, but by POE, her reaction, and the resistance to her bandwagon by her buddies and the masons, I’m resolute in my decision to see her flip today.

Also how does this, which to me but apparently very few others was blatantly obvious, prevent a nightkill? -

Maybe Sotty is a mason with undo and PJ lol. I doubt it though. In any case, the Yosarian bandwagon has the potential to go through. We need your help though.

[Porochaz]

Ah ok, I guess that makes you townie then

[Porochaz]

The absence of Yosarian in those wagons is noted.

Noted indeed, and YOU should be voting for

Cogito Ergo Sum
chamber
Save the Dragons
MafiaSSK/mathcam > except that mathcam is town.
DGB

[Porochaz]

Ugh, didn't see that mason claim coming.

Yeah, you never see them coming.

When do you plan on doing... something?

[Porochaz]

I've already stated why I think VitR is scum -- and why he's the lynch of the day. Go read that post and be persuaded.

So... when are you going to do... something?

Just to clarify I mean something useful today.

[Porochaz]

EVERYBODY LOOK AT THIS AND WHO DO YOU WANT TO LYNCH??? MAKE UP YOUR MINDS

Look at all those big wagons where we can eliminate a lot of townies.

Seol/Bookitty (9) --

Sotty7, Shanba,

Cogito Ergo Sum, chamber,

Untrod Tripod,

Save the Dragons,

petroleumjelly,

MafiaSSK/mathcam,

undo

DrippingGoofball (7) --

Untrod Tripod,

OGML/Tigris/Kublai Khan,

Sotty7,

Save the Dragons, Porochaz,

CrashTextDummie,

Albert B. Rampage
MafiaSSK/mathcam (7) --

CrashTextDummie

, Cogito Ergo Sum, Seol/Bookitty,

Untrod Tripod, DrippingGoofball, Sotty7, Glork

MafiaSSK/mathcam (6) -- OGML/Tigris/Kublai Khan,

petroleumjelly

, Seol/Bookitty, Porochaz,

CrashTextDummie, undo

DrippingGoofball

(6) -- Save the Dragons,

petroleumjelly

, mathcam, Porochaz,

Sotty7, CrashTextDummie

Bookittytown: should be totally convinced CESscum.
CEStown: should be totally convinced Bookittyscum.
STDtown: should be voting Porochaz/mathcam/OGML but mostly Porochaz.
Porochaztown: should be voting mathcam/STD/OGML but mostly OGML.
OGMLtown: should be voting STD/Bookitty/Porochaz but mostly Porochaz.
mathcamtown: should be voting STD/CES/Porochaz but mostly STD.

I thought you had realised that since the scumputer put a mason up the top of the list, it wasn't really worth listening to.

That and your scum, so the numbers are scewed anyway.

[Porochaz]

DGB is the only decent option in that votecount. CES is playing differently to my (f2f) meta on him, which worries me, but it's different from both his town and scum meta. Like PJ I would prefer to lynch players who are actually scummy. There is a lot of crap throughout the whole game for DGB, not just page 3.

[Porochaz]

Poro, DGB, thoughts on VitaminR?

The defence of CES has been a problem for me. The fact that he is now backing out of that somewhat also has me worried, I find he has undermined himself. However at this point he might be damned either way in this regard.

I wouldn't be comfortable lynching him today however, there are better more viable options here.

[Porochaz]

Due to being blind in one eye I have tomorrow off yay so I'll be around.

Tonight is deadline.

[Porochaz]

DGB is the only decent option in that votecount. CES is playing differently to my (f2f) meta on him, which worries me, but it's different from both his town and scum meta. Like PJ I would prefer to lynch players who are actually scummy. There is a lot of crap throughout the whole game for DGB, not just page 3.

Wait - you think that out of CES, VitaminR, Yosarian, OGML and DGB, the only scum is DGB? Are you serious?

Not at all...

Out of the 5, I think 2 of them are town. Out of the other 3, 2 are mildly scummy and the final one has a neon sign that can be seen from space saying scum. I am voting that one.

[Porochaz]

I haven't seen you doing anything that would make me think you are town, "outting the cop", the fact that you have replaced any scumhunting whatsoever with flawed maths, your whole behaivour around LML, the UT case... tell me DGB why should I be finding you town? You can't just keep telling me you are town, you need to give me evidence!

[Porochaz]

EVERYBODY LOOK AT THIS AND WHO DO YOU WANT TO LYNCH??? MAKE UP YOUR MINDS

Look at all those big wagons where we can eliminate a lot of townies.

Seol/Bookitty (9) --

Sotty7, Shanba,

Cogito Ergo Sum, chamber,

Untrod Tripod,

Save the Dragons,

petroleumjelly,

MafiaSSK/mathcam,

undo

DrippingGoofball (7) --

Untrod Tripod,

OGML/Tigris/Kublai Khan,

Sotty7,

Save the Dragons, Porochaz,

CrashTextDummie,

Albert B. Rampage
MafiaSSK/mathcam (7) --

CrashTextDummie

, Cogito Ergo Sum, Seol/Bookitty,

Untrod Tripod, DrippingGoofball, Sotty7, Glork

MafiaSSK/mathcam (6) -- OGML/Tigris/Kublai Khan,

petroleumjelly

, Seol/Bookitty, Porochaz,

CrashTextDummie, undo

DrippingGoofball

(6) -- Save the Dragons,

petroleumjelly

, mathcam, Porochaz,

Sotty7, CrashTextDummie

Bookittytown: should be totally convinced CESscum.
CEStown: should be totally convinced Bookittyscum.
STDtown: should be voting Porochaz/mathcam/OGML but mostly Porochaz.
Porochaztown: should be voting mathcam/STD/OGML but mostly OGML.
OGMLtown: should be voting STD/Bookitty/Porochaz but mostly Porochaz.
mathcamtown: should be voting STD/CES/Porochaz but mostly STD.

I thought you had realised that since the scumputer put a mason up the top of the list, it wasn't really worth listening to.

Also your name is in green, which if you were truly going to do this for the towns benefit you wouldn't have it as, either as scum or town.

Also I think we discussed in this game, the past oldy game, and Im sure its not the only times, why the scumputer was not really useful. Wagon distribution may be interesting to look at, but to rely on it. Meh.

I do however, think you are right though. I do need to move beyond my suspicion of you (and ABR). But at the same time, I don't want to distract myself when I think you are a sure thing.

[Porochaz]

Here's who I am leaning scum on:

UT

, Mathcam, STD,

Sotty

Here's who I have strong scum feelings for:

PJ

I'm pretty sure mathcam is town, which leaves STD from the above list.

And I ran the scumputer with Sotty7 as town:

96 Save the Dragons
92 Albert B. Rampage
63 Cogito Ergo Sum
51 MafiaSSK/mathcam
49 Porochaz
48 Seol/Bookitty
43 VitaminR
42 Tigris/KublaiKhan
39 Green Crayons

29 Yosarian2

18 chamber
18 MrBuddyLee

@mathcam: you really need to re-visit your STD read.

Like how do I take your scumputer seriously when you are voting the weakest out of the current wagons according to this?

[Porochaz]

Also your name is in green, which if you were truly going to do this for the towns benefit you wouldn't have it as, either as scum or town.

I always put my name in green. I am looking for scum with all the information that I know, including my own alignment.

Make your own scumputer and make your own calculations. All the data is there. Put me in black, put yourself in green or red LOL. Draw your own conclusion.

I put the scumputer out in public, but it is MY scum-finding app.

Fine, lets say your town for the moment, why would I (or anyone else) follow your scumputer results then?

[Porochaz]

Yeah, so lets make the right choice this time, hmmm?

vote DGB

I plan to go over other players today, I've said enough about DGB. But I need it to be clear, this is whats going to happen today.

[Porochaz]

Are you kidding me, GC? You're scum too then. You said you would re-examine OGML today, where did that go?

You guys are killing me. The only one that makes such dumb decisions is Porochaz, the rest of you are scum.

Do you know my problem with you is that your either town and blind, or you are scum, and I keep going back and forth. It's a pain in the ass, because if my memory serves me well, you are an awesome scumhunter when you want to be, or you could be a spamming moron who can't make a case to save his life. Guess which one you are this game?

Do me and yourself a favour, write down why you think DGB is town. You don't have to post it (although it would be useful for me to understand a perspective I am completely unable to see) then reread her iso. Is there anything there that makes sense to you here? If she was town, why would she try and out you as a cop? Why would her analysis posts be lacking in content? Why would she not follow her own scumputer?! I really don't understand why people aren't seeing this?

[Porochaz]

Are you kidding me, GC? You're scum too then. You said you would re-examine OGML today, where did that go?

You guys are killing me. The only one that makes such dumb decisions is Porochaz, the rest of you are scum.

Do you know my problem with you is that your either town and blind, or you are scum, and I keep going back and forth. It's a pain in the ass, because if my memory serves me well, you are an awesome scumhunter when you want to be, or you could be a spamming moron who can't make a case to save his life. Guess which one you are this game?

Do me and yourself a favour, write down why you think DGB is town. You don't have to post it (although it would be useful for me to understand a perspective I am completely unable to see) then reread her iso. Is there anything there that makes sense to you here? If she was town, why would she try and out you as a cop? Why would her analysis posts be lacking in content? Why would she not follow her own scumputer?! I really don't understand why people aren't seeing this?

I've played with DGB a great many times. She doesn't usually put this much effort when she's scum.

The cop thing is a bad joke to get a reaction and only makes sense in her mind. But on day 1, we're all making up reasons to vote for someone or think that we see some subtle clue to an alignment, most of which stems from our own arrogance.

The scumputer, she does as town or as scum, and might get more accurate later in the game. There's no reason to follow it blindly with this many players left alive.

DGB is town.

I'll be honest, Im not seeing the effort.

Sure I'm seeing the effort when she is pressured, but thats a different thing.

The cop thing wasn't day 1? Also even if what you say is true, to me, how can I not put that as a point against her?

And in regards, to the scumputer? Then whats the point?

Further more, why would she push others to follow it more closely?

These aren't really questions for you, by the way. Im just trying to show you that this townread of yours is not correct. Or at the very least, it's not something I can get on board with.

[Porochaz]

No, Im voting someone different from you for valid reasons and it annoys you.

Just like you not being able to even comprehend my case makes me frustrated or think you are scum.

[Porochaz]

I don't know, ABR, if she was town, I'd be looking over the game again, because a lot of my reads would be wrong, if scum then I'd be starting with you, expanding out to probably chamber next. CES wouldn't figure, my reread of him yesterday didn't unearth much, as I've already said, he didn't play the way he usually does as town or scum.

As for my current reads, as I've already stated, I need to look at this game from a different non DGB stand point because I feel through necessity I've had to focus on her. Your defence of DGB has not been good, your play yesterday was blindingly terrible and felt very much like "throw shit to see what sticks". My reads are that MBL, OGML and yos are town. MBL because he seems to have fashioned his own route through this game and seems to be scumhunting very well, OGML and yos because a lot of what they have said throughout this game has matched what I have thought and felt. I hated chambers case on me, because I felt it was lazy, something I've felt of his play overall this game. For someone who I deem to be a good player, I am yet to see something that makes me go "he's town". However, I am aware there are things like the case on yos, that I am not on top of that I need to read over.

[Porochaz]

That's pretty easy to fake

Is it? Is it easy to fake? It's a lot of effin work is what it is.

Lulz.

[Porochaz]

Basically there are currently two trains of thought, one in which DGB and ABR and others have STD as scum, and another where I and OGML and others think DGB is scum. There has been a lot of arguing, a lot of deadline lynches, etc. At this point if you want a balanced view, your going to have to read the last day or two.

[Porochaz]

Juls, please do not go on what ABR has said, he certainly does not speak for all of us.

[Porochaz]

Would you stop talking and bang already?

But in the meantime, maybe explaining the reasons STD is scum, and not just saying it, might help me understand why you are going after him. I'm saying this to both you and DGB. Outwith the scumputer, I know that argument, and I find it dull.

[Porochaz]

Yosarian has a lot of gall to be criticizing DGB or me after the disastrous chaos he manufactured yesterday. Really.

Really?! We're blaming yos for that one?

[Porochaz]

Yosarian has a lot of gall to be criticizing DGB or me after the disastrous chaos he manufactured yesterday. Really.

Really?! We're blaming yos for that one?

I'm trying to determine any motivation for this comment

other

than attempting to buddying Yos, but missing the mark because of the very apparent reason chamber just pointed out.

Well from my point of view the chaos yesterday was purely and only to do with ABR spamming the shit out of the thread, nothing to do with yos.

[Porochaz]

If there is ONE scum, though, who would that scum be? It's not likely Bookitty... she's being wagoned! It's not likely mathcam... he's being wagoned!

Who is left???

STD

.

Well, or you. You were also on that bookitty wagon.

At this point, I'm really thinking that either you or STD is scum, but I'm not certain which one of you it is.

It's interesting that you should point this out 15 minutes before Porochaz shows up, only for him to ignore all the trouble I've gone through to force your hands into bus'ing STD. You guys have daytalk?

I haven't I just havent had the time to look at it in depth yet. I appreciate the effort, when I am not travelling I will look at it more.

[Porochaz]

I'm thinking STD-OGML-Green Crayons-VitaminR. Tell me what you think.

GC is on my backburner. I don't want to distract myself from the STD lynch.

Defscums

STD
OGML

Maybes

Yosarian
one of Bookitty/mathcam?
GC? Poro?

I don't like how Porochaz asked me for explanations about STD, that I graciously answered, then he ignored it all, took the time to respond to something else, and when asked about it, answered that he doesn't have time to respond to my STD case that I made especially for him. Suddenly he brings up that he's travelling. What's up with that? It sounds to me like he's a dedicated lurkerscum.

GC went from a solid town read for me, to acting bizarre. If STD flips scum, GC might be suffering from scum frustration with the game state. We'll see.

Bookitty is keeping a low profile, I'd like to see more of her. mathcam is dropping a mixed bag of town and scum tells. His "association-puter" seemed legit yesterday (even if he dismissed STD as town to lynch CES), but today's version seems really sketchy, and he didn't answer my question about it. He' currently voting STD... but in his recent post, he's positioning himself to switch his vote to me... quite a sudden turnaround.

Yosarian is a BIG maybe.

Two things.

1. Did mathcam make the cut because me made a suspicion about you?

and 2. Give me a fucking break.

Reading into a case takes a lot more effort than replying to a couple of simple comments. I made 1 post in the interim, 1 about ABR blaming issues that in my view he caused on someone else, that took all the effort of looking at his post, and posting 1 line.

I will look into your case that you seem to have lovingly made from your sweat and tears but please be aware that I am going to take my time with it and give it the attention it deserves. I will get to it, but in my time, not yours.

[Porochaz]

That paragraph that reads "reading into a case..." is bad english because I initially thought I had made 2 posts. The other was repeating what I said in the post above.

If it makes you happy, (which at this point Im doubting) Im heading home and then instead of relaxing, I'll get onto my computer and look at your post.

[Porochaz]

Outwith the scumputer, I know that argument, and I find it dull.

Let me try.

You obviously know that ABR and chamber are town. I don't recall how you feel about mathcam. It doesn't really matter for my explanation.

Actually I don't think I've said once either of them are town, I think the most I've said is I'm going back and forth on ABR.

Do you believe that Bookitty, mathcam, and STD are all town??? Maybe you do since I'm pretty much your only suspect.

Mathcam yes, but he is frustrating. Bookie feels like she hasn't posted in forever, I would like her to do more, it's a null read. STD I need to read into more, but for now at least yes I think he is town.

If you do think they are all town, that means that you think we have wagons on townies (according to the above assumption) that are made of all townies. TWICE!!! Do you believe this is possible? In all my years of playing scum, I have never witnessed a large wagon like these that didn't have at least one buddy on it. One buddy, minimum. If these players are town, I'd expect more scum on them, especially with LML dead day 1.

If there is ONE scum, though, who would that scum be? It's not likely Bookitty... she's being wagoned! It's not likely mathcam... he's being wagoned!

Who is left???

STD

.

I see that STD is the only one on both wagons. You may have a sorta point here, but its making assumptions where I don't have your faith that one or both chamber/ABR are town, it's wagon distribution and we are still assuming that - one of the wagonees isn't scum, that unlikely as it may seem there isn't scum on one of these wagons and that you have put yourself in green again... I concede though, you have a minor point here.

Riding vote #4 on Bookitty (after 3 townies voted her), and riding vote #7 on mathcam (after at least 5 townies are on it).

Let's stay true to the facts as known to the game. vote 7 on mathcam after 3 townies voted him.

From chambertown's, Bookittytown's, and mathcamtown's perspectives... the smartest option is to lynch STD.

Unless

one of these is scum (chamber is town, though), and lynching STD blows their paper-thin cover. Mathcam especially, since keeping STD alive covers him up from two things (1) the scumputer and (2) that list from LML, except that mathcam is the one that brought it up so I'm not super worried.

STD, if he were town, should be trying his best trying to lynch one of Bookitty or mathcam. From his perspective, these players top the list as potential scum. But nooooooooo! STD is not town, he's not looking at these wagons from a town perspective, and he'd rather get rid of me instead because at night the scum are cornered into eliminating masons rather than their enemies.

Lulz Im enjoying you trying to explain the scumputer without making it supremely obvious. The problem I have here, is that I don't particularly like looking at wagon distribution as the sole reason for voting and lynching someone. I may have been unfair in calling you lazy but for the same reason as LML, the scumputer and mining the data out of it has taken the place of scumhunting. Which makes me sad for one, I don't know it's in the spirit of the game but it also makes me suspect you, because your numbers in this game have been wrong (see sotty) and at the very least that shows that you shouldn't be putting as much trust in them as you are (never mind anyone else) and conversely, there have been times when you have downright ignored it. Without anything else to go on in recent times, I'm not sure what else to think.

From my point of view, I can see why if you are making all these assumptions about the players around you. ie, the ones who seem to hang on to your every word are town, those that express suspicion are not, and you are interpreting the wagon distribution in the way you are, I can see why you are voting STD. I still think it's a weak vote, however at least it matches up with your data. Which is more than can be said for the mathcam vote, or the OGML one. Or the Sotty one, but that one more because

you were

the scumputer was wrong.

[Porochaz]

Please keep posting and reading. People are interested in your opinions and it would be useful to have one confirmed town in the game that is actually, you know, confirmed giving opinions.

[Porochaz]

@Poro

, wtfman? Your world just got rocked by your top suspect being the doctor and the guy you trusted for two months being scum. And all you post since daybreak is:

Please keep posting and reading (Julz). People are interested in your opinions and it would be useful to have one confirmed town in the game that is actually, you know, confirmed giving opinions.

Your thoughts on STD/DGB and related fallout please.

I am in a difficult position at the moment, I won't deny that my interactions with DGB made me tunnelled, I did try a little with ABR who was also the major poster. But it is obvious that in regards to DGB at least, I was very wrong. There needs to be some more content from myself in regards to other players, and I need to address other issues in regards to this game. I'm not posting when I need to because, well it's a daunting task. I'll be honest, my focus was on DGB that I kind of drowned everything else out. I know there was a whole yosarian thing, but don't ask me to explain the specifics of it because I won't be able to tell you.

I got the impression that a lot of it was ABR causing chaos, and starting wagons and lighting fires just for the sake of it and my choice was to ignore it all and focus on the one person I was sure about.

Which is an issue now because I was completely wrong about everything. In my scenario of this game, STD was town. He had to be. His early game posts seemed to come from a town place. He was vocally against LML, he had been a pretty ardent supporter of the DGB wagon. His thought processes to me were clearer to see than some (one of my towntells) and it matched some of my own. Even when he was being run up I was thinking that we were making a lot of assumptions based on iffy maths. I couldn't see a reason to vote him.

So yeah, I don't have much to say right now, cause I don't really know what to say. I will have something to say, but its going to take some serious rereading for me to be able to get a grip on this game.

[Porochaz]

Reading Day 3. As it's 80 pages it might take me a bit.

[Porochaz]

Looks like I added day 2 and 3 together.

[Porochaz]

I am up to page 90, there are a few things Im noticing, one, I am still finding it hard to drown DGB, two, there is still the weird DGB/ABR relationship, three, the masons need to contribute more, sotty because when she does, its usually useful and undo because well, what the hell has he done? 4, the yos and vitr discussion is slightly more interesting, its one in which yos's focus on the masons comes off badly for him, 5, MBL and GC are still obvtown

[Porochaz]

I skipped a chunk as I realised a lot of the stuff I was going over was irrelevant now. If someone disagrees and wants my opinion on something then you can link it.

The last 10 pages of Day 3 was my primary reading for today. (so far) Now I don't think anyone comes out of that chunk of pie looking good. I mean seriously, people should look at the end of day 3. I mean look at ABR's voting in those 10 pages alone, someone, anyone, (not ABR) tell me thats town voting? Its not just him though, look at all the mad scrambling and chaos and people tripping over one another.

[Porochaz]

OK, maybe I wouldn't vote Porochaz without doing at least a reread on his ISO.

Please, don't stretch yourself...

[Porochaz]

25 pages left to read, and yep, Im going after ABR, when he has decided to follow DGB, he has been like her lap dog, when he hasn't he's been throwing piles of shit to see what sticks. He finds scum in anyone who disagrees with his opinions and really, someone else tell me, what has he done other than make half assed stances that he has changed a couple of pages (if that) later? He sews discord around you all and you let him.

vote abr

[Porochaz]

Right, so my vote on ABR wasn't the best. But think about it, basically everyone who has posted has said the same thing about me about everyone. Am I really the only person in this game who is going to try and have some independent thought here? I mean it's ironic considering my stance on DGB, but ABR is not confirmed town. He is anything but. But hell, this isn't an ABR is scum post. This is a looking at everyone else post. Is yos's 180 really that town? Regardless of my alignment. What about CDB, it's very easy for him to come in with new perspective. Does anyone want to tell me what Bookie has done recently? or SpyreX? mathcam has been a bit like an annoying fly this game, "poro hasn't done anything townie" "I don't get this prozac love, etc" but when it comes down to it has he posted any decent case? appears he is coasting along a bit, GC as well, will go out of his way to say anything is scummy, but again what actual scum hunting is he doing. Im not sure I could win in regards to anything I do. The masons have been useless as well, but congratulations Juls on actually being someone who might actually add something to this game.

Which actually makes me realise, thats why you think ABR is town. He is doing something. Yay for riding ABR's coattails everyone. I certainly don't think he is town, there is a lot of throwing shit to see what sticks, but then I have disagreed with him more than most, and well thats what ABR views as scum so bye bye me. It's just a shame he changes his opinion so often, it has become blatantly obvious some of you aren't really thinking about things. People should look into that when I die and hey easy scum win for you ABR, well done.

I mean from my point of view its been tough today. My reads have been wrong and my lynch is almost certainly on the cards, despite the case being PoE sand my lurking, it means no defence really, and I am struggling to continue a reread when anything I say is going to be pointless, GC's response proved that to me. It's unfortunate that I proposed the idea just before a turbulent time in my life. This week I resigned from my job, to go back to uni and I said goodbye to some people I doubt I'll see again, and right now I am on a train to yet another interview. Excuses, I've made a lot of them this game. It might have been wise to replace out, but at 150 pages, it's not very fair.

[Porochaz]

Que GC "Well, 3813 looks like scum trying..."

[Porochaz]

At the moment its not troubles, Im going back to uni to do what I want, and I am leaving a dead end job for it. As are the people who I said goodbye to.We are all on to better things.

Anyway back to this game. I have been active in my last couple of games, so bleh. DGB distracted me way too much. I'd be tempted to do a day 4 read, which maybe I should do anyway. But at the same time, I am trying to work out how much faith you would put into it tomorrow.

Edit: @ABR, how has she helped play recently, at all? In any way shape or form?

[Porochaz]

You are right I guess.

unvote

Let's play it your way then. I'll have to find some space on your coat-tails though. From your p.o.v. I should be voting CDB or mathcam, correct?

[Porochaz]

Interesting line yos is taking. Im not even sure why he is pursuing it. ABR, why do you think he is town?

mathcams recent post is most interesting, if you want my help in joining a wagon, ABR, then I would start there.

[Porochaz]

@Poro

, can you please explain your townread of VitR, if that's how you still feel about him?

I don't really have a townread on him, never had. His defence of CES was always weird and feels bad still now that he is gone, as I say, I've kinda let him slip by the wayside while I focused on DGB

[Porochaz]

Also, I just read Poro's ISO and I'm pretty null on him based on his words. But I really couldn't come up with a compelling argument based on his posts that he's town. He doesn't seem to be trying to have it both ways on anything.. he's very straightforward about how he thinks, even if a lot of his "reasoning" can get nonspecific at times. That's about as positive as I can get.. he really has been super lazy since DGB flipped. I'd have expected more effort from town that gave a shit.

meh meh meh

@Poro

, can you please explain your townread of VitR, if that's how you still feel about him?

Also, why do your opinions of GC range between "obvtown" and "what actual scum hunting is he doing"?

Has your read of Boo changed since two weeks ago when you made her "null"?

I also can't find your opinion of chamber since you called his case on you "lazy" 2-3 weeks ago.

One reason for us to find you scummy is that:

My reads have been wrong and my lynch is almost certainly on the cards, despite the case being PoE sand my lurking, it means no defence really, and I am struggling to continue a reread when anything I say is going to be pointless

If you were town, you'd know that your words could potentially be taken seriously after you're lynched, meaning any work you did right now WOULDN'T be pointless.

Sorry I stopped reading after the first question. The GC scumhunting quote was in relation to me, I was splarfing out stuff. I am still leaning town on him, but in that post I was listing things that were maybe worth looking into rather than things I found overly scummy.

In regards to Bookie, I don't really have an opinion of her, again, never had. Im not sure the relevance of the super town points she got early on in regards to LML, and I fail to see much to continue calling her town since. That said I don't really have anything to call her scum either. But this is my major frustration with this game. People are happy to just pass people off as town for historic information.

Chambers case on me, was lurking and the fact I wanted to play skype mafia on a deadline day rather than watch the thread, both are points that I wouldn't deny, (beyond the fact that I was in the thread before deadline hit, but the lynch had happened) I find his interactions in this game verge on frequent but minimal, but that could be style. I found his opinion on DGB quite interesting a lot of the time, unable to read her effectively, but at times willing to follow her blindly and at other times voting her.

Im quite happy to catch up, as I say there is quite a few things that Im interested in following up on. Yos's 180 and his insistence that he had more of a role on the STD wagon than he did. Again, his towniness for me stemmed from the closeness of his views to mine. However as STD showed I can't really be using that as an excuse.

[Porochaz]

You know I did notice that before I posted, and I wondered if anyone was going to be petty enough to mention it. Seems I was wrong.

[Porochaz]

Well, his posts today don't make me feel too bad for voting him.

vote yos

Will try and do some more rereading in the next 40 minutes before I go to bed though.

[Porochaz]

Well, his posts today don't make me feel too bad for voting him.

vote yos

Will try and do some more rereading in the next 40 minutes before I go to bed though.

[Porochaz]

Not much I can do with work being so busy. Im already staying up late to read something. Im also pretty much okay with day 5. Your entry to the game has been good, CDB's has been underwhelming, not really added much and has gone into lurkerdom. Yos's interactions with scums has been by far the most interesting thing. Mathcam warrants a reread, his post strike me as weird. However will do that tomorrow.

[Porochaz]

Reading pages 124 and 125 again, yos in retrospect has an awful couple of pages, trying to get DGB to convince him she is town. He's tumbling over himself, the line of questioning (along with "the trap") is weird.

It's also the only thing I've noted up until that point beyond thing VitaminR is more town due to his yos posts and things I am putting in a big pile called "ABR's scum pile but people are happy to ignore". His adamant OGML read is the thing that I want an update on most, however I believe ABR has stated he already finds him scum still.

[Porochaz]

Defscums
STD
OGML

Maybes
Yosarian
one of Bookitty/mathcam?
GC? Poro?

I have VitaminR as scummy and Bookitty as town.

Do you still hold this opinion ABR? If so, why?

[Porochaz]

Not a fan of GC's willingness to go with two easy wagons (DGB and StD). Feels the most slippery out of the people voting for either today.

You have been more under my radar than most in this game. Which is saying something. Beyond your yos posts Im not really sure where you are within the rest of the game. How are you feeling in regards to GC now?

[Porochaz]

Ok, well looking outwith that post, outwith today, mathcam has been the only player (give or take a shitty case from chamber) who has been consistently suspicious of me and pushing at me to have more suspicion. His post is a pile of crap, granted, but Im not sure you can legitamitely draw any conclusions from it. Furthermore, I honestly can't fully tell what conclusions you did reach beyond my own assumptions because your post was garbled.

[Porochaz]

Ill be doing my isos today at work/after work depending on how busy it gets.

[Porochaz]

So lets start with CDB and all.

Also let me be clear. I want to vote ABR over all others.

Tigris didn't do much in this game, her vote on MafiaSSK was not the best but in the end, she didn't do anything overly scummy.

Kublai is pretty scummy though, he takes ages to reread, and despite repeated promises of content it amounts to what is a lazy vote on LML, there is minor questioning on his excel sheet but really its all pretty superficial.

Day 2 KK's case on DGB is also pretty superficial, a vote based on a question is for pressure sure, but it keeps being followed up with side comments and no actual case. In fact there is no actual reasoning behind any of his posts, he finds the mathcam wagon bad, I mean even his glork case in 1371 is really off.

Do you think scum wanted LML lynched, Bookitty lynched, or a no-lynch?

At what point in time are you asking? Scum-wants changed as the situation grew dire for them.

My question was in response to this comment of yours:

I don't think the attempt was to lynch. I think it was an attempt to create another option to further divide/demoralize the town and create possibility of no lynch.

So basically, I'm asking: do you really feel all three remaining players (MBL, Glork, DGB) from the KK-wagon were voting you to demoralize the town? I can understand "divide"--yes, offering you as an alternative was an invitation to step off other wagons. Of the three of us, only DGB showed a willingness to no-lynch.

I'll break my question down:
1) Do you really think my voting you yesterday and keeping that vote there until deadline-day was designed to result in a no-lynch?
2) Do you think Glork's switch to you 16 hours before deadline was designed to result in no-lynch?
3) Do you believe DGB found both LML and Bookitty too townish to vote for yesterday, or is that implausible?
4) Are you pretty sure that Bookitty is scum? Because if she's town, wouldn't it make more sense for one or more of scum-Glork, scum-DGB and scum-MBL to push for her lynch at 9-3 or 9-5 Bookitty instead of no-lynching or risking an LML lynch?

1. It's a possibility.
2. It's a possibility.
3. It wasn't implausible. When DrippingGoofball said a no lynch was preferred, I tried to ascertain how LoudmouthLee was so town in her view. She didn't answer until Day 2 started, so that answer is weak.
4. There is risk to pushing a competing wagon close to deadline. Maybe they hadn't laid down the proper groundwork for a BooKitty push. But.... It's really, really easy to push a competing wagon on me because I had mostly prod-dodged since replacing in. So it's super easy to shoot a vote on me with a rallying cry of "hey this guy didn't do much and jumped on a wagon towards the end of the day with no case" and maybe it catches on.

Examining those that voted me, only Glork fits that profile. You and DrippingGoofball both expressed early suspicion of the BooKitty slot while Glork declared it super-town. Glork voted me with the reason of "this guy didn't post enough, therefore scum". Plus Glork offered to hammer anyone else immediately after voting LML.

Shit.. Glork is fucking scum.

vote: Glork

So looking at it, and his interactions overall with DGB, it all just seems very lazy, no actual scumhunting going on. The LML and DGB cases were non entities, the Glork case as seen above was well, MBL's case. Yeah...

We move on to OGML, who votes DGB even before he finishes day 1 of his reread. I mean at the time it didn't bother me, because you know, DGB was pretty scummy but to be sure enough of a vote before a mass of content is really bad. I mean it's difficult because a lot of OGML's reads matched my own, apart from yos really, but Im not sure what his angle was on that. It worries me that he tries to determine scumteams long before he has read the whole game.

Once again his cases come with no context, nothing behind the votes, reasons are lazy and don't mean much, the VitaminR vote seems especially bad when there are other options, and from that point I thought he had a number of larger scumreads (DGB, who was a viable vote at the time, chamber) Rereading it appears the CES buddying was for the vote. I guess I can't say much against that, cause I also felt it was a scumtell, however I don't agree that it is worth a lynch. Also the way he made the case was weird, never did he confront Vitr but he went round the houses, through yos then questioning dgb about him.

His arguments against chamber however to me seem worth a vote, however that never happens. His reads were similar to mind but there is no context to why he thought the way he did.

In the latter part of his stint he gets very emotional, which actually may be his playstyle from my vague memories, but he uses it to deflect ABR's questioning of him about STD.

CDB hasn't done very much scummy, but considering his past two predecessors he needed to come in and make a decent reread/post, which he has not done. I am also not a fan of CDB building cases on scum iso's rather than reading the context around it.

I'll be interested to see his posts tomorrow.

[Porochaz]

mathcam, ABR and looking at the last few pages to come.

[Porochaz]

Its 11.30pm, Im going to do this quicker...

mathcam, really do not like the information lynch on bookie early on. Then when questioned by yos (633) he doesn't exactly know what information he would actually get out of it. Not particularly happy with the way mathcam had ABR as pretty sure to be scum then moved him closer to town but had to point it out to us. (1666)

Then there is the whole cam-scumputer, which has striked me as odd, considering his stance against DGB and her scumputer. Especially because this seems to be based on his opinion more than anything else and is presentic scientifically. This is reinforced with his sotty talk straight after.

I mean the biggest problem I have had with mathcam has been his case on me. I mean A. for similar reasons as the case on sotty, also it has felt he has been trying to pick away at me from time to time. He kinda leaves the odd Prozac mention here and there, but never goes after me or engages me. For most of the game there has been nothing for me to respond to in terms of mathcam and his suspicions, which surely is a bit odd over an extended period of time. It feels like he has been waiting for me to do something stupid or maintain my lack of posting to attack me when I'm at my weakest. Surely if he has suspicions of me, he should have pushed it a lot earlier, especially when others were not noticing me as much.

Unlike the CDB et al, mathcam for the large part (excepting me) has been explanitory in his cases, yet I don't like the way his reads have evolved over time. I mean look at his early Bookie and ABR suspicions, I mean, it's okay to change your mind but there is no referencing that that is the case, it kind of just drops. Furthermore, his reads on LML (town) and STD (virtually non existent)

More recently, his case against me is still minimal, and he keeps referring to it, like it gives him some townpoints for some reason. However at the deciding moment he drops me and goes for yos. Especially with 24 hours to deadline, still.

Thats the mathcam case.

ABR is something that needs to wait until I have more time. I may look into other players but as for the two of my 3 main suspects, I have now done what I wanted to do.

[Porochaz]

I have tried but a lot of people completely disagree with me. I hope to go back over my case and convince more of you but at the same time I can choose to focus on ABR, which worked so well for me in the past with others, or I can look for others as well.

[Porochaz]

I am travelling and have left my charger by accident. I was going to be la anyway but beyond small, short posts (im posting from my 3ds) im not able to do anything until monday evening.

[Porochaz]

It feels, mathcam, that you are looking for an excuse more than anything. I've made my case on CDB, others have expressed suspicion and made there cases. I deliberately didn't vote so that he could post, but at what point do we start getting ridiculous. I came back and saw the thread a few hours after 4096 was posted. Thats 13 posts in 2 days, it's time to stop prolonging this day any longer.

vote CDB

[Porochaz]

Boo: That was a joke.

It feels, mathcam, that you are looking for an excuse more than anything. I've made my case on CDB, others have expressed suspicion and made there cases. I deliberately didn't vote so that he could post, but at what point do we start getting ridiculous. I came back and saw the thread a few hours after 4096 was posted. Thats 13 posts in 2 days, it's time to stop prolonging this day any longer.

vote CDB

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're looking to take credit for contributing to the attack against CDB? 'cuz what I get from rereading that post is you wanting to vote for ABR, and coming up with this killer anti-CDB argument:

CDB hasn't done very much scummy

Okay, I cherry-picked a little, but still. And now you wait until there's almost precisely zero hope of CDB escaping the wagon, and you eagerly hop on.

I'll hammer CDB in the morning if he hasn't claimed or contributed by then. Poro-CDB scumpair has promise.

Let me be clear, Im not taking credit for a big giant case or something revolutionary, I look through his iso, and I came up with this post about his past behaivour. Yes, I have been absolutely emphatically clear that I would rather be going for an ABR lynch here, but there are numerous reasons why I am not.

Furthermore, "cherry-picked a little"? You mean a lot right? Because you quoted that little bit of the whole post completely out of context.

I mean lets start by the fact that this slot has had more reincarnations that doctor who. Just because I say CDB hasn't done very much doesn't mean Im referring to his other incarnations and also I then go on to say that CDB's lack of contribution is an issue in itself on the basis of his previous incarnations. (Not to mention the one other point I make against him.)

Here is the post (below) for reference. Because I want it out there for people to see, I am not claiming to have done anything revolutionary with this post but I think if your going to start cutting and pasting my posts like a three year old with scissors, then I should be able to post the whole damn thing.

Also, "eagerly hopped on" if I was going to do that, I would have hammered! I waited days (partially through little choice, although I had access yesterday) before I decided to vote. He had a chance to make a case or vote, as did all of you.

So lets start with CDB and all.

Also let me be clear. I want to vote ABR over all others.

Tigris didn't do much in this game, her vote on MafiaSSK was not the best but in the end, she didn't do anything overly scummy.

Kublai is pretty scummy though, he takes ages to reread, and despite repeated promises of content it amounts to what is a lazy vote on LML, there is minor questioning on his excel sheet but really its all pretty superficial.

Day 2 KK's case on DGB is also pretty superficial, a vote based on a question is for pressure sure, but it keeps being followed up with side comments and no actual case. In fact there is no actual reasoning behind any of his posts, he finds the mathcam wagon bad, I mean even his glork case in 1371 is really off.

Do you think scum wanted LML lynched, Bookitty lynched, or a no-lynch?

At what point in time are you asking? Scum-wants changed as the situation grew dire for them.

My question was in response to this comment of yours:

I don't think the attempt was to lynch. I think it was an attempt to create another option to further divide/demoralize the town and create possibility of no lynch.

So basically, I'm asking: do you really feel all three remaining players (MBL, Glork, DGB) from the KK-wagon were voting you to demoralize the town? I can understand "divide"--yes, offering you as an alternative was an invitation to step off other wagons. Of the three of us, only DGB showed a willingness to no-lynch.

I'll break my question down:
1) Do you really think my voting you yesterday and keeping that vote there until deadline-day was designed to result in a no-lynch?
2) Do you think Glork's switch to you 16 hours before deadline was designed to result in no-lynch?
3) Do you believe DGB found both LML and Bookitty too townish to vote for yesterday, or is that implausible?
4) Are you pretty sure that Bookitty is scum? Because if she's town, wouldn't it make more sense for one or more of scum-Glork, scum-DGB and scum-MBL to push for her lynch at 9-3 or 9-5 Bookitty instead of no-lynching or risking an LML lynch?

1. It's a possibility.
2. It's a possibility.
3. It wasn't implausible. When DrippingGoofball said a no lynch was preferred, I tried to ascertain how LoudmouthLee was so town in her view. She didn't answer until Day 2 started, so that answer is weak.
4. There is risk to pushing a competing wagon close to deadline. Maybe they hadn't laid down the proper groundwork for a BooKitty push. But.... It's really, really easy to push a competing wagon on me because I had mostly prod-dodged since replacing in. So it's super easy to shoot a vote on me with a rallying cry of "hey this guy didn't do much and jumped on a wagon towards the end of the day with no case" and maybe it catches on.

Examining those that voted me, only Glork fits that profile. You and DrippingGoofball both expressed early suspicion of the BooKitty slot while Glork declared it super-town. Glork voted me with the reason of "this guy didn't post enough, therefore scum". Plus Glork offered to hammer anyone else immediately after voting LML.

Shit.. Glork is fucking scum.

vote: Glork

So looking at it, and his interactions overall with DGB, it all just seems very lazy, no actual scumhunting going on. The LML and DGB cases were non entities, the Glork case as seen above was well, MBL's case. Yeah...

We move on to OGML, who votes DGB even before he finishes day 1 of his reread. I mean at the time it didn't bother me, because you know, DGB was pretty scummy but to be sure enough of a vote before a mass of content is really bad. I mean it's difficult because a lot of OGML's reads matched my own, apart from yos really, but Im not sure what his angle was on that. It worries me that he tries to determine scumteams long before he has read the whole game.

Once again his cases come with no context, nothing behind the votes, reasons are lazy and don't mean much, the VitaminR vote seems especially bad when there are other options, and from that point I thought he had a number of larger scumreads (DGB, who was a viable vote at the time, chamber) Rereading it appears the CES buddying was for the vote. I guess I can't say much against that, cause I also felt it was a scumtell, however I don't agree that it is worth a lynch. Also the way he made the case was weird, never did he confront Vitr but he went round the houses, through yos then questioning dgb about him.

His arguments against chamber however to me seem worth a vote, however that never happens. His reads were similar to mind but there is no context to why he thought the way he did.

In the latter part of his stint he gets very emotional, which actually may be his playstyle from my vague memories, but he uses it to deflect ABR's questioning of him about STD.

CDB hasn't done very much scummy, but considering his past two predecessors he needed to come in and make a decent reread/post, which he has not done. I am also not a fan of CDB building cases on scum iso's rather than reading the context around it.

I'll be interested to see his posts tomorrow.

[Porochaz]

So my thoughts have been centred around post STD and I see that mathcam is probably the best lynch for today, see my post earlier, 4072, then there is the misquoting of me done in 4138, which I

[Porochaz]

Why the hell do we have the submit button first in line... Its always been a pain in the ass...

...which I won't requote.

However, at this point, I feel that its now or never for ABR, I want people to tell me how he is town. Because what I am seeing, and am fairly sure has happened in the past with ABR. (I'll see if I can dig up the game) Is that he is a fairly strong powerful voice and is able to lead town to an extent. He latched on to DGB, but ever since STD has been lynched and she has been NK'ed not one single one of his decisions has helped town at all. The only thing I see covering him, is that he got in with DGB at the right time, and has used that to maintain his townieness.

[Porochaz]

I will say that it's hard to get too much information from his in-game choices, as he relentlessly jumps on almost every bandwagon he can get ahold of, and then vigorously asserts rretroactively that he knew what was going on all along (hence my snide comment toward him at the start of the day).

It was a phrase I deleted in the end from my last post, because I've used it so many times before, but "throwing shit to see what sticks" is what I've been saying about ABR for an age. I have also found annoyance with his confidence at knowing what has been going on, when to me he seems to be the master of chaos.

What I can't understand however is why when this has been his whole schtick why that makes him town? Yes, he's "been frustrated" but for what, the day or so he is on that particular wagon before he jumps on to the next?

[Porochaz]

vote ABR

[Porochaz]

First proper teaching day of uni today and Ive been in lectures all day. I'm beat. I have a day ¨off¨ tomorrow so my ABR post will be done in the morning

[Porochaz]

Ok so my case on ABR,

In regards to LML, ABR does this weird thing, he states an initial suspicion of LML in 88 with a "serious vote" and reiterates his suspicion in 213 but as soon as the wagon starts building, he has moved on to pjelly (248) for what is a reason that I don't really buy. But here is the thing, between 212 and 248 there are a number of posts in support of the LML wagon, which put LML up to 5 votes from the 3 at 212. Why at this point would you drop off the wagon you were pushing? Especially because all it took was a little resistance from VitR, (who was also one of the original people on the LML wagon) for you to go back onto it only 6 posts later. It only takes until 308, (and another LML vote from GC) to move back on to PJelly and start calling LML town.

Now, in between times he is pushing hard (or as hard as ABR's one liners get) for a LML lynch, so why is he so desperate to get off LML whenever he has a chance? I mean let's forget that we now have the knowledge that PJ was town? I reckon, that we have a bussing scum member who is looking to try and derail that wagon, its interesting later on that the pjelly wagon that he is so desperate (when he isn't voting lml) for people to jump on to, gets both STD and LML as members. Making it the largest wagon over LML and Seol/Bookie, whom he also seems to be unusually angry about.

The rest of day 1 turns into a bit of a joke for ABR, he's trying to make sure that one time "Kill LML" doesn't get lynched and Bookie doesn't get lynched, furthermore, PJ doesn't seem to be going places, so it is off to CES. As an out of the blue suspicion. Interesting fact. CES was town as well.

Let's move on to day 2 - post 883

Bookitty (7) -- Sotty7, Shanba, Cogito Ergo Sum, chamber, mathcam, undo, CrashTextDummie

We need to lynch from this player pool.

Vote: mathcam

Let's do a DGB and take a closer look at that wagon shall we?

Bookitty (7) -- Sotty7-mason, Shanba-cop, Cogito Ergo Sum-town, chamber, mathcam, undo-mason, CrashTextDummie-town

This all sounds fair, and whats more, sans Shanba who was already dead, ABR-town wouldn't know any of the alignments. Except we now know that this was a town lead wagon, which ABR-scum would know. A point reinforced by the fact that he chose the wagon at a weird point, it's not the wagons peak because that was 9 as of votecounts, so it's missing UT and Save the Dragons and it's not the end of the day, which had the wagon at 6. So why choose the Bookie wagon at this point in time? Unless it's to ignore the fact StD was on there? and why focus on this specifically? I mean he has been fairly vocal about his hate of this wagon so far, with the knowledge we have now, it's interesting that he hasn't come back to this now - unless of course, it puts suspicion of the fact that Bookie might be scum after all.

We still have 2 unknowns on there, chamber and mathcam, who he votes. Then unvotes, and moves to UT (not on the wagon, he posted). Then back to mathcam again.

Then he moves to DGB, which I find funny, just because of his stance on LML and his reasonings for voting her.

I start out the day by voting mathcam, then he votes for me with flimsy half-baked characterizations, and then accuses me of OMGUS. He's caught. Lynch him.

Replace mathcam with DrippingGoofball and you with me and I'm wondering why you aren't voting DrippingGoofball instead of distracting from it.

It appears that you were right.

Unvote mathcam, vote DGB

She's too quick to abandon the previous bandwagon to add herself to mine. She's scum.

It is essentially OMGUS, which I've touched on before in regards to myself, it's a recurring theme, that people come on to ABR's radar when they express suspicion of him.

Anyway after that, it takes a while for him even to mention mathcam really again, however he does go through what we now know to be 3 confirmed townies, before he does get back to mathcam again but only begrudgingly after others get on mathcam. Why the hesitance if he was one of your main suspects anyway? Feels to me as if someone is trying to fit in.

That's it for now, I need some dinner.

Oh also, I'm VT.

[Porochaz]

At the end of day 2, we see that he mainly goes against Vitamin R (look at post 1600 for the start of that), but never really does very much about it, his case is weak, see 1611 for details, the main point is that VitaminR is speaking from a scum perspective. There isn't actually any thought there, but it is a safe place to put a vote to be out of the way. Votes town Glork.

Day 3, his votes become a mess so bear with me, he goes back to his safe VitR vote, he alternates between that and his slightly more interesting mathcam vote for a while, he also places suspicion on Bookie at the same time but doesn't really do anything about it. If he was voting it would be at complete contrast to his day 1 behaviour but seeing as she didn't gain a vote at all out of it, when ABR is so vote happy well...

A reasonless vote then goes onto Sotty as soon as ABR's big suspect also votes Sotty. Why? Bandwagoning. With his scumread. Does that sound town?

I'll jump ahead to the vote on Bookie now. Because that was also pretty baseless (and lets face it, not going to happen), it makes no sense either.

I'll save you the trouble.

Bookitty is third towniest in DGB's list. I'm third scummiest. I'm town, so if DGB's system is worth a penny, that points to Bookitty scum.

For those that are interested. The vote lasts 7 hours.

Then he votes DGB. Which to be honest, Im avoiding, because I ain't got time for that.

Then there is the whole Sotty mason thing. You know the one where PJ very unsubtley hints that she is a mason, ABR ploughs on anyway. Then ABR suddenly thinks "maybe she's a mason". I mean it's not like 3 other people

including the confirmed mason

are already suggesting this. But hey, it means ABR can fall back on this post in future right, even though he is one of the major proponents of the wagon. And he does just that, 2431 (and again at 2495). 94 to 98, someone tell me that ABR's actions in any of that come from someone who is town. If your going to do one thing with my case, look at that!

I'm never going to vote CES. I'll die before I vote for CES. Yosarian is not going to get away with this.

I'm not voting mathcam because I'm not convinced that he's scum. I think that all (but maybe one?) of your remaining scum will be found among {MBL, UT, STD, CES, VitR}

Glork, this is for you buddy.

Unvote, vote CES

This amused me, but it highlights a point. Understandably reads change particularly day to day, but maybe with the exception of MBL, has ABR maintained an opinion on anyone? All I can see, and it gets worse the more you get into the game, is just a lot of changing reads like someone who has no idea what to think because quite simply he isn't.

Im trying to get through this quickly so day 4 in a nutshell, starts buddying up to DGB, makes this declaration -

I also believe Bookitty is completely town.

I'm greatly vindicated for defending DGB against conftown all game. It feels great.

Unvote, vote DGB

Sorry DGB. Chamber doesn't want you to live.

Unvote Yosarian, vote DGB

OGML, seems like there won't be any Yosarian wagons today.

I start out the day by voting mathcam, then he votes for me with flimsy half-baked characterizations, and then accuses me of OMGUS. He's caught. Lynch him.

Replace mathcam with DrippingGoofball and you with me and I'm wondering why you aren't voting DrippingGoofball instead of distracting from it.

It appears that you were right.

Unvote mathcam, vote DGB

She's too quick to abandon the previous bandwagon to add herself to mine. She's scum.

Day 5, after spending a lot of time going over who might be scum, abr abandons that, takes a more active role then lynches yos, town. However, he's still desperately trying to just fire himself around make himself what has effectively been unlynchable. He voted 14 times in day 5, for 5 different people. That's ridiculous! Thats not scumhunting, thats just voting for the sheer hell of it. It might give the appearance of scumhunting, but in the end, you've lynch 2 scum, you've had 4 previous days, surely at this point you have enough of an idea of what to do next? Or your pushing a little harder on potential suspects.

Day 6, he basically leads the town to a CDB lynch, also town.

And finally, day 7, I make a case, he doesn't do anything about it, but pushes the Mathcam lynch one step further. Despite the fact that even if he has decided to ignore me completely, we are still waiting for MBL for the massclaim. What's the town motivation for doing that right now?

Thats the case. We can't let ABR keep running this town. You guys need to be active in this. Please vote ABR. Or at least, tell me why I'm wrong. But I know I am not, and I am glad you have given me the time to tell you why.

Bookitty is next, I will do it in the next few days if there is time.

[Porochaz]

I can't tell if poro's big post is faked or just disconnected. Either way I'm not a fan.

Did you even read it?

[Porochaz]

Vote ABR.

[Porochaz]

Poro's post can be flushed down the toilet with the rest of his rancid comments.

That wasn't an entirely unexpected response to my post.

It also doesn't make you any less scummy.

[Porochaz]

This needs to get a kick up the ass.

There are a few things we need to get straight.

1. MBL for whatever reason is not here. Do we get him replaced? I don't particularly want him to be but at this point the game is stalling without him, how much more the game will stall with a replacement is also a problem.

2. Because of 1 we have all the information we are going to get from the massclaim. We need to move on.

3. People need to vote now. I recommend ABR, I have a case which he has poorly responded to. People, ie, chamber, spyreX, undo, bookie, vitaminR need to be doing something, whether thats agreeing with me, agreeing with ABR on mathcam or something else, can we get on with it? Hell if you want to pull my case to pieces (SpyreX, Im looking at you) do so.

It sucks that we are near the end of the game, and it seems like everyone with the exception of mathcam has decided to stop playing.

[Porochaz]

For me, ABR appears to me to be scum, but that's obvious, the case has been made and I'll stick to that. I hope MBL, once claimed, gets a chance to go through it. Going through the case I think there is a good chance that Bookie is scum along with him. The third one is more tough, I want to say SpyreX, but I get the feeling thats because he has been relatively antagonistic towards me for what I feel is little reasoning. However I want to hear more from chamber and VitR, because I can't remember there contributions to the game. But my suspicions on them aren't related to my case.

[Porochaz]

How is that funny or interesting in any way?

[Porochaz]

Your points don't add up. My case has very little to do with the masons.

[Porochaz]

I haven't been though. I'm not even doing that now.

Of course you are going to leave me alive, especially at night, I was following you up until today, and whats more it's a lot easier to go after CDB who isn't posting than to go after me.

That said I don't even believe you looked at my case.

And actually I was wrong about my case having little to do with the masons. (by the way I did look, PJ appears to see you as scummy, and Juls had you at neutral in her reads list.

You did out sotty in what was a really terrible set of posts. Incidentally, for the others, it was the one thing I asked if you were going to do anything with my case. 94 to 98, please read and tell me why you still think ABR is town (if you do).

[Porochaz]

Having read the points again, I think the scenarios mathcam is pointing to are unlikely (6 scum with the town power seems unbalanced, and I don't remember ever seeing a scum-vig, and I would argue (despite the wiki looking like it disagrees) that it isn't normal.

ABR going for the massclaim so readily, but still wanting a mathcam lynch, despite him being the main proponent of the massclaim is odd.

Do I think you should claim? No. Beyond mathcams points which I find unlikely, I think the benefit of the confirmed town is of greater use later than today.

[Porochaz]

Can you not have input now, today, rather than asking us to wait for an extra week?

I think the only two you would even have to weigh in on are mathcam and me, so can't you just do that before you go?

And you missed ABR?

[Porochaz]

I mean, I didn't really consent to this massclaim.

If I'm the vig, I really don't want to get NKed tonight for claiming, so I should claim vanilla.

If I'm vanilla, I want to get NKed tonight, so I should claim vig.

Boo, Poro, VitR, undo, Spy, do you guys want me to claim? And do you want me to claim truthfully?

It's not easy to answer that question given that we don't know your role. I say you do what you think will be best for town. That said, with that hesitation, it seems less likely that you're a VT.

@Everyone: What are your stances on chamber? Is he solidtown for anyone of you?

He is not, but at this point it would take some research and someone to convince me he is a better choice than ABR or Bookie for me to go for it.

[Porochaz]

unvote, vote Bookitty

ABR next.

[Porochaz]

Do you subscribe to mathcam's arguments against Bookitty, Porochaz? Do you have any other reason to vote her?

Meanwhile, who's actually

against

lynching VitR?

If you read my case on ABR, you will notice that Bookie features a lot.

[Porochaz]

Hey ABR, your posts are missing a vote for Bookie. Please rectify.

[Porochaz]

Porochaz is stubborn and dull, and wouldn't know scum if it sat on his nose, but he might actually be town.

He's voting Boo. He suspects mathcam. He agreed with you on OGML. Why are you criticizing him for having the same suspects you have?

Because I suspect him most of all.

Seriously has noone read my case.

[Porochaz]

Unvote, vote VitaminR

Noones voting VitR today, please revise.

[Porochaz]

mathcam voted Bookitty too easily. He's scum with VitaminR and Bookitty will be re-evaluated after they are both lynched.

Translation: Minor Reason found for not voting buddy. Vote someone else.

Cool.

vote ABR

[Porochaz]

mathcam voted Bookitty too easily. He's scum with VitaminR and Bookitty will be re-evaluated after they are both lynched.

Translation: Minor Reason found for not voting buddy. Vote someone else.

Cool.

vote ABR

Translation: Thin reason found for not voting for buddy. Vote for main tunnel again.

So let me get this straight. You both think that the other is scum with BooKitty, but neither of you are voting BooKitty? It seems like there's a particularly easy compromise there....

Pretty happy to vote either at this stage, however I'm currently try to work out a way to make people read my case, the link between ABR and Bookie is there.

[Porochaz]

Thanks Bookie, I didn't even realise.

Onto the game, and god that feels like an awful vote by mathcam.

My feelings on VitR are not great but not near a lynching capacity. I really, really hate the way Bookie brought this case up in a burst of activity as well (yet no vote). There is something really weird going on, especially because ABR is already voting him. It feels so opportunistic as well, this case being brought up when vitr is gone.

vote bookie

[Porochaz]

I was pretty clear I was happy with either. What I am not happy with is this wagon, the way it came about and who is on it.

[Porochaz]

@Porochaz:

If I were actually scum with ABR, do you really think I would have supported him so strongly throughout the game? Would I have made it so easy to do paint-by-numbers connections between us? I could sort of see it if you were saying I was scum buddying up to ABR, but scum together? Really?

God, thank you I was dying for my daily dose of WIFOM. Either way, both options state your scum.

Like I said, I'll vote VitaminR as a compromise. I'm not giving up my first suspicion to move a vote onto someone who isn't here to defend themselves until I think it's the only way to get a lynch.

Sounds town... but hey you carry on getting others to vote for you.

[Porochaz]

My case on Bookie boils down to her being linked to ABR and the fact that she has done absolutely fuck all memorable since day 2.

[Porochaz]

Im on LA at the moment because my first school placement, though I hate the other two wagons, the eagerness from my two suspects voting VitR, and then mathcam... meh, he doesn't fit into my scumteam. Honestly Bookie is the best option.

[Porochaz]

I don't particularly want a mathcam lynch, but I have placement tomorrow and Im going to bed and my Bookitty lynch isn't going to go through without a case, which I simply am not able to make with the placement kicking my ass so much. But we do need a lynch today so...

vote mathcam

Sorry bud, but between you and the others interactions about VitaminR, you are the better option.

[Porochaz]

The fact that people are still listening to ABR after yet another crap lynch is laughable.

So lets try this again.

vote Bookitty

Your turn, ABR.

[Porochaz]

vote MBL

[Porochaz]

Chamber = obvscum.

[Porochaz]

It was a confusion for us until we realised that it was just easier to kill undo, that said, the VitR vigclaim came out of left field, don't think he was on any of our lists.

[Porochaz]

I texted Fenchurch, to tell Patrick, but I think they were in the same place we were in last year, which had no internet, so might take him a while to get back to us.

[Porochaz]

Im glad I didnt have to write that Bookie case... I appreciate the startings of the ABR case, Bookie, so much.

[Porochaz]

I really, really did not want to hammer mathcam, but I got confused with GMT and BST (its BST now, but Patrick was working on GMT) and there seemed to be enough folk floating around to change the course of the lynch last second and felt I needed to keep control. Maybe I was a bit too sensitive in that regard but I had thought I had done enough work against Bookie and SpyreX enough against me to make sure that it was okay if I was lynched.

[Porochaz]

To be fair ABR, your voting patterns were so changable and fast, whenever you voted for me, or one of my scumbuddies, I tried my very best not to react because I knew within a couple of days at most, that vote would not be on me anymore. There is something to be said about the votes being stuck on people but you were at the opposite end of the spectrum, as a threat to scum, you simply weren't. I'm pretty sure the day we lynched STD, someone called out the scum correctly but the pairings being listed off were changing so rapidly. There was many a time I would see this process ongoing and I just didn't post because I knew if I kept my head down for that moment then more than likely you wouldn't settle on voting me.

[Porochaz]

I'm going to completely disagree with you ABR, I am holding back a little, I mean DGB played a frustrating game and I got overly angry with her. even after it was clear we were going to kill her. But by the end some of her plays made sense. (but pre-emptive apology to DGB, whilst I don't take everything back, I possibly was a little too harsh) ABR however, Im pretty sure I would have played the same way with you, up until the point I gave up and started sheeping you because I knew there was no way you were going to lynch me if I buddied up to you.

I mean I'm not going to defend some aspects of my play, a lot of real life shit came my way, but also at times it made sense for me strategically to stay in the background. However by the end I had a clear plan and I think I did well to complete it.

What we (or I) found was that you did all the work for us. You went after Yos, CDB, mathcam, vitR to an extent all on your own. You kept pushing the wrong people, and you kept shit voting all over the place. It made it very easy for town to lack direction or purpose, especially because you posted so much that at times the thread became just you, (or just DGB). I have seen it before, where you have done that and I remember it going well for town once, and it completely screwing town over another. After DGB died, you became basically the leader of the town, and as much as you may call me a dick for saying it the lynches after that were primarily you. As I say towards the end, it was easier for me to stay in the background because you were being bullheaded enough to think you were right and shut down the others who thought you were wrong.

Furthermore, yeah, it looked like me and bookie, were the favourites at the end. That said, Im pretty sure that that wouldn't have stuck. But even if it had, in lylo, you vote for who you think is confirmed. Ultimately it was that decision that lost you the game.

[Porochaz]

When I say complete it, I didn't. But Bookie wrote out a first draft of an ABR case for me, which I then expanded and edited. I wonder if more people would have paid attention to it if I had made it a whole lot shorter. I was surprised when I saw the Bookie-ABR lynch. In her first draft, Bookie alluded to it and I expanded into it (reluctantly but she encouraged me to) I would have made the Bookie case today, but a lot shorter and more concise. The primary aim for me today was to get Bookie lynched. (providing we didn't have an opportunity to synch up and lynch a townie) ABR had a weird thing which I don't know if he even realised he was doing, where he didn't follow through anytime he voted Bookie, but always gave very poor reasoning to unvote or change his vote. (but then you possibly could say he was like that with anyone, Im not sure, I was focusing on more specifics) Then use it to prove ABR scum. I mean, it was a clunky plan, and probably wouldnt have worked as intended but I reckon it could have pushed us to the win.

I may be wrong in my assessment here, but I genuinely found ABR scummy as hell. Now obviously, I found this more than most. But noone could have found him as townie as he is claiming?

[Porochaz]

Triple post.

Patrick, I was complaining about the scum power earlier on. I take it back, completely. Even without the synch up, it was so extremely useful.

[Porochaz]

I got PoE'd a lot. But considering I almost certainly should have been lynched straight after StD and was preparing for it. Then again the next day etc. etc. Now that's not to say, I wouldnt have been lynched now. I think the way it was going one of me and Bookie would have been lynched. However, since your opinion was, by the end, worth absolutely no weight what so ever because your voting was just so changeable, the only way it would have gone through is by someone like chamber or VitaminR or MBL actively pushing it, and all 3 of them would have done more thought than a simple PoE.

[Porochaz]

I don't particularly want to be nasty here, but you are pushing my buttons, because you are being quite rude to other players of the game, but your play was truly awful ABR. I attribute the scum win to you. I think every player played a mixed bag of a game, but ultimately what lead to the scum win, the later lynches, the outing of the masons, that whole last day, was you. And you can be arrogant about it all you like, the fact is that you played poorly, and more importantly, your sportsmanship was also incredibly poor.

[Porochaz]

The masons were tough to surmount early on, but it helped they were outed. Not sure how helpful the vanilla cop would have been if still alive...I'm not familiar with that role so I don't know what Goon comes up as.

VT, considering 4 of us were goons, it would have been mostly negative utility I feel.