New York 181 -- Game Over

[Drixx]

I'm getting caught up on the thread. I'll try and post something cogent (or failing that, at least entertaining and/or amusing) this afternoon.

[Drixx]

also i will divine if elusive is town or not very early on starting with this:

elusive are you scum?

I'm town, yay.


However, this leads me into RVS Questions for Town (Scum Plz Do Not Answer So We Know Who U R)
1. Which do you like being more? Town or scum?
2. What is your second favoritest color?
3. Are you scum?
4. What is your spirit animal?
5. What are your favorite scum hunting strategies and how do they work?

Oh and bonus question for like the Truly Amazing:

Who is the most dangerous player (for either alignment) in this game's player list and why?

1. Scum. I learn more and improve my play much more when I'm scum and I know what's going on. Being townie is more challenging and confusing, and even in some ways more exciting. It's close but scum.
2. Grey
3. Nope
4. The quiz says Butterfly. Awkward.
5. If I explained them, then they would have even less chance of working than they already do.

Bonus: I haven't played with many folks in this game yet, so objectively I'd have to say myself. Mostly because my experience is limited to a ton of games with a relatively small playgroup, and it isn't translating well to here, and also because I generally get scumread in every game ever, despite very infrequently actually being scum.

Oh, klingoncelt are you into Harry Potter and HP fan fiction and specifically HPMOR? Your response about the spirit animal is what made me think of this line of questioning.

Not aimed at me, but yes very much. Today's two chapters were enjoyable, although I'm getting irritated at EY for the short cliffhanger chapters. Also a little creeped out by the repeated references to naked children in the last couple chapters.

Have you read BWP by DeadWoodPecker?

Meta is only one scumhunting tool and I wouldn't put stock in it too much but IMO it is very helpful in reading people, especially if you've played with them in a game before.

Wake-The color you used for me is good. I like the bold red. Thanks

Do you find meta to be reliable? Isn't it by nature easy to manipulate for anyone who is self aware at all? -- For example, I don't want it to be immediately obvious what my alignment is, so I've made a conscious effort to approach each game here differently than any other games temporally close.

Basically the main take-away is that I'm one of the best Mafia players to have ever lived. I'm full-on town, by the way, and I say that with 100% certainty. I'm so confident that I'm going to town-claim right now. With that being said, I am almost certain that SilverWolf is scum. This is just based on my gut reaction here. But the day is young so let's see how it goes.

~ DW

You are absolutely, positively 100% incorrect and your 3 post so far are scummy as shit.

Yeah let's see how 100% incorrect I am when you flip scum.

~ DW

Considering you are absolutely wrong about me and have posted nothing of value, I'll take your words for what they are worth which is absolutely nothing.

This struck me as a fairly contrived exchange. In light of some later posts surrounding SilverWolf, this feels a lot like DeltaWave making a subtle play for town cred later on. When I first bumped into this, it looked a lot like distancing, but I have a hard time believing SilverWolf is scum after the more recent posts. That's the sort of thing you just don't fake because it could only possibly help just the one time and then nobody would ever trust you again.

I think elusive is a much easier target then you House and Egg is going for her pretty strong and Flubber to a lesser extent. Just something to take note of. I don't think her quiz is that useful and is a distraction but she doesn't seem all that scummy for it. I'd be interested to see what ika says about it since he knows her.

The quiz is a tried and true way to get folks talking early on. I wouldn't really take a third party's statement over my own read on someone. Elusive seems to have moved beyond the quiz in the last few pages, and it seems to have had its intended effect.

1) What charisma? I mean, I feel like she's playing more to the scum meta you are desribing than the town one so if you are still townreading her, you're doing a shitty job of describing her meta.

2) ok, neither one will probably happen then which is fine

1) then vote her and lynch her. look i suck with describing it and you haev no incentive to go read games so we are just reaching an impass.

It struck me as a bit odd that Egg is scumreading Elusive based upon his understanding of ika's description of meta. How reliable can a read of a description of a read of a meta really be?

There's also a little WK here by ika, but I don't recall seeing this carried on afterward. I tend to be a little protective of folks I bring into forum mafia games myself, so I'm not reading too much into this atm.

[OFF]
I'm breaking the 3-sentence rule now for this, but pleeeease, Silverwolf and House, don't escalate that! Throwing pigeon poop at each other neither helps solving the game nor making the atmosphere better.
This is a f-cking game and it's sure that everyone wants to win. Even if we're mis-reading each other many times. Weren't misreads happen, the whole Mafia would be pointless, wouldn't it? Sometimes we kick aß, sometimes our aß gets kicked. Deal with it.
[ON]

I think silver wolfs town from her reactions in this convo alone. I don't think she has the heart to fake a emotional response like that.

I

think that klingons probably the sk. She seems to have gotten wrapped up about it and by pushing the sk label on silver I think she thinks it's actually her attempt distancing herself from the role in the future.

THAT!

If I were the SK do you really think I'd tell you how I play as the SK?
Wolf does this whenever anyone votes for her. Every. time.
No one has her permission to vote for her ever, especially when she's scum, or a tantrum will ensue. It gets old.

Wait-oh, this has just burnt my scum-o-meter into ashes. I'm unsure whether she's Mafia or SK but she must be scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Klingonette

I read this exactly the same way as it was unfolding. Assuming Klingoncelt is SK makes a bunch of that back and forth make way more sense. Accordingly:

Unvote

VOTE: Klingoncelt


Someone asked about how I saw things with fresh eyes in a really long post that I didn't want to try and dig through to just answer the part directed at me. First reaction is something along the lines of "Holy crap that was a lot of posts to catch up on" paired up with "Wow I totally feel out of my depth here". I don't understand why Wake was/is being hounded so much for RVS votes, especially if the prior announcement of intended change to playstyle exists as claimed. The attempt to wagon him for it feels contrived to me. I haven't played with any of the involved parties before, so this kind of gets filed in the notes to be revisited later in light of firm information.


Scum reads: Klingoncelt and Egg are both pretty firm into reading scummy to me.
Town reads: Elusive and Ika both seem pretty firm town. I think SilverWolf is probably town just based upon the long term downsides to faking an outburst like that. House and Wake are slight town reads for me atm.

[Drixx]

Drixx, I liked your post and reasoning. TY for questions thingy (I was the one to ask for fresh perspective.) ABR is right though. klingoncelt seems to have a thing for speaking without thinking which makes her look scummier than she is + some girl trouble there is what I see. Then there's dragonspawn who {redacted} but people vouch that this is not his scum play.

People I'd be fine seeing lynched today:
Texcat - who's response to my questions were less then acceptable. Is that the best you can do?
Flubber - overreactions and being esoteric or unclear without purpose
Shiro - "My gifs are distacting you from realizing how little I've been saying"
freeko - Not sure on this one but didn't like that post out of the gate. Needs pressure.
Egg - "I'm like a like reactive like player like srsly"

I can empathize with someone who says things the wrong way and gets scumread for it. I'd like to see what Klingon has to say before I re-evaluate. I'm not prepared to simply dismiss a read because someone has been town and misread in the past. Past games have no bearing on the (presumably randomized) roles and alignments of this game.

Did you catch my sidebar concerning HPMOR? I asked a question back at you there.

[Drixx]

@elusive, OT

Spoiler:

I am on ff.net, but I haven't posted anything as of yet. I've actually been working on a story for a couple years now. I'm not sure of the etiquette here for sending PMs and such, but you seem to have a fairly strong interest in the area, and that's something in common. I've been trying to get a good (brutally honest, preferably) beta for awhile now to start cleaning up what I've written so it can start going up.

As far as HPMOR goes, the story is finished and being rapidly posted. The final chapter goes up on March 14th (Pi day).

Drop me a line if you like and we can stop polluting this mafia game with OT stuff.

I suggest we set our current scumreads on the more active players aside momentarily and poke some of the folks who seem to be kind of skating by on the bare minimum. I'd hate to tunnel in on not-really-slips by engaged townies and let the scum team quietly advance without committing anything to the game.

@ABR - Apart from past games (which have no direct impact on alignment this game), do you have any reason to be against Klingon or Dragon wagons? Things that happened in prior games aren't really strong reasons to decide anything in this game. If you have some thoughts contrary to the way some of us have read them (particularly Klingoncelt as far as I'm concerned), I'd love to read them.

@Shiro - You seem to be kind of dropping in very carefully. I remember your images more than your posts, and I suspect if not for the images, I wouldn't really remember much of any presence at all from you.

[Drixx]

What's with the chain posting? Totally over the top and reinforces the read. The false terms of endearment are wearing thin too. Call me "hunny" or some shit like that at your own risk.

[Drixx]

@mod

: Please either mod kill or force replace KlingonCelt for her personal attacks against SilverWolf. She has made posts that have zero bearing on the game and flat out break site guidelines.

This. 1000x this. If I had any say, it would be a lengthy ban from all games. The line is so far behind her at this point that it would take an orbital satellite to see it. There's no place for badgering someone and antagonizing and going that nasty crazy on them.

[Drixx]

@elusive but it is just two gif D: Thought true I haven't done anything substantial in the game

As for everything that happened the last few pages I don't really feel any of the two as lying tbh and lynching Kc just for the drama that happened is unreasonable. I kind of get where some people come from but I really think at least 1 person in her wagon is scum jumping on an easy choice hiding it behind policy lynch for the drama.

It is a real shame though I wanted to play with SW a full game after that newbie I replaced in shame :/

You're right. You haven't really put anything substantial into the game, which is why I poked you. You did put something of substance into this particular post though. Who is it on the wagon that jumped on using the drama as cover? Is there even anyone on the wagon that wasn't there prior to that blow up? The only thing I see about policy lynch in the thread is Ika saying, during the drama, that Klingon had moved from a scum read to a policy lynch because of her behavior and that he wouldn't be moving his vote (and all the ensuing response to it). His vote didn't originate because of the drama though.

Why are you trying to scare people away from voting for Klingon?

Just checked everyone voting her. Everyone has presented/or sheeped reason to think she is scum sk/mafia why was this called a policy lynch?

ISO Ika and you'll see where he reacted to the unfolding drama by noting that he had changed to considering KC a policy lynch and wouldn't be moving his vote.

Just checked everyone voting her. Everyone has presented/or sheeped reason to think she is scum sk/mafia why was this called a policy lynch?

What reason other than not seeing how town SW was is there? DId I miss anything?

Do you really agree there is enough stuff to make KC look like scum over other people?

You haven't made any real accusation or case against anyone. There's actually some pretty compelling reasons to believe KC slipped hard as SK. You're asking someone if he really agrees that there's enough to make KC look like scum ahead of other people while you haven't pointed out anyone else as having anything to make them look scummy.

I notice that I am confused.

@Egg - I'm fairly new here and my experience thus far has taught me to treat folks who appear to be trying to get by without saying much with heavy suspicion. My years of playing offsite have also taught me to despise heavy inactivity/lurkishness. I come from 48 hour day phases, so having

weeks

to interact is certainly an adjustment. One of the best things about it is that even if I am really convinced someone is scum (as I was and remain with Klingon before that drama exploded all over the thread), I can set that aside and see where it goes and still put pressure on folks who are lurking. I dunno what you found manipulative about that, but maybe the viewpoint from my perspective will help? For whatever it's worth, there are others besides the two I poked that I would want to pressure, but I didn't think just spraying a single post at a ton of people would be all that productive. There's still days and days left to run down other folks who are skating along without really participating.

As for Klingoncelt and why she's scummy, you seem to have skipped over the part where she slipped all over herself and basically broadcasted she was the SK. The later attempt to deflect that onto another player and then mask it all with drama seems to have worked to some extent, as a couple people are behaving as if all the votes on Klingon came after the dramasplosion and are thus suspect.

That brings me to another thought: Despite the fact that all (nearly all? I need to check again to be sure) of the votes on Klingon are from before the drama really got going, we have a couple people who are posting from a position of seemingly being convinced that Klingon is town and thus spraying out indictments against anyone for voting on Klingon with the claims that such votes are opportunistic because of the drama and thus scummy. This feels like a slip to me. It could also, I suppose, be a bit of reverse psychology? Either way, something feels super wrong with people trying to scare folks off and/or away from the Klingon wagon by making the false assertion that the only reason anyone is voting Klingon is the drama providing an easy cover.

[Drixx]

Looking for guilty consciences Ika?

[Drixx]

also drixx i have other reasons for suspecting you but it cant be said atm

Fair enough. As a fair warning, I get scumread pretty much always. I played mafia previously in the community forum at the Diablo incgamers site. Feel free to go look if you find meta helpful. As for your observation about how people play in their roles ... I sort agree. I think a lot of people have a tendency to fall into familiar ruts. I personally try and change things up and experiment. If I just did the same thing every game, then forum mafia would have long ago stopped being entertaining to me.


@Egg - I think you have a case of you reading more into what I said than was there. I am pretty sure that we've caught one scum, although with the WKing going on her behalf I am now wondering if the SK slip was as obvious as it seemed. You tell me:

Post #453 - Klingoncelt is clearly talking about SK and how she likes SK and how she plays SK. She also mentioned SK as her favorite role when answering Elusive's mini quiz, fwiw.
Post #631 - Klingoncelt tries to deflect to Ika as origin of SK "theory" and "slips" by somehow not knowing the open setup? This seemed temporally inconsistent with the earlier SK talk from a couple of days earlier.

Post #631 is the interesting one to me. I originally read that as an SK slip, but with the White Knighting going on, I have to wonder if that's a fake slip all around. The proximate reactions to that post in the thread were mostly people feeling like that almost certainly wasn't an intentional "slip", which is pretty much exactly what you would want from making a post like that as scum.

[Drixx]

That whole exchange fits the Ika I know. A little bit of a "did the matrix just have a glitch?" moment there.

[Drixx]

With Silverwolf's departure a policy lynch is no longer warranted, because an essential element required to keep that specific conflict going has unfortunately left.

Running off a quality player makes the policy lynch all that more important because such shit behavior should not be tolerated regardless of alignment.

+1

They were both in the wrong, and both of them need to be gone. Until that sort of crap is met with absolute intolerance, people will keep doing it. Nobody should be harassed and bullied in a forum mafia game.

[Drixx]

V/LA request for a day or so. In the E.R. Observation area pending a stress test.

[Drixx]

V/LA request for a day or so. In the E.R. Observation area pending a stress test.

Hope you're fine!

Thanks. I didn't get any sleep due to the frequency of blood draws and such. The downside was the discomfort from all the stuff they did. The upside is that they looked at my heart and arteries and everything looks fantastic (my family has a history of heart trouble at comparatively young ages). They also ruled out blood clots. Better safe than sorry given my genetic predispositions, and intense pain and tightness in the left arm and chest along with heartburn without any apparent cause is def. cause for concern. The best part is they actually imaged the heart and arteries and I'm in super good shape for my age.

I'm not liking the lack of explanation for Garmr votes, in particular Flubber and ABR.

I explained it when I laid down my vote.

No, you didn't and I'm going to sleep and re-evaluate, but going to go ahead and

FOS

you now. Your last couple days of posts are increasingly scummy.

[Drixx]

How can it be opportunistic? It's a third vote. The votes on klingon are opportunistic as hell.

If the third vote (and by extension the first two votes) can't be opportunistic, then how can

all

the votes on klingon be opportunistic? Oh, that's because you're still carrying the false narrative that the only reason people voted on KC was after she revealed what sort of human being she is.

Freeko is still scum. I think he can be vigged tonight.

Oh, really? I didn't think someone could get me to move my vote, but you somehow managed it. Congratulations:

unvote

VOTE: Albert B. Rampage

[Drixx]

How can it be opportunistic? It's a third vote. The votes on klingon are opportunistic as hell.

And Scummy.

I'm pretty sick of your play this game. Your play comes across as a desperate cry for attention, especially the multiple posts in a row that say nothing but just draw more attention to you. Your play is also offensive and unpleasant. It's not my place to question the mods, and you somehow got left unbanned and unpunished for the crap you've already put in the thread, but you keep on referring back to and bringing back up your terrible behavior (and hers) in order to pretend like the only reason anyone is voting you is because that happened.

News flash: All but one of the votes on you were there before you two decided to melt down in front of the entire game (and presumably some outside spectators as well). You were scummy before and your attempts to smear anyone voting for you by suggesting the votes are motivated only by some sort of loyalty to someone else is just about the scummiest thing I've seen in many years playing this game.

I was ready to move on and evaluate how you played once this mess was past, but it is clear that your strategy is to keep bringing it up so that it never passes, and provides you the ability to (dishonestly) claim anyone who votes for you has non-game reasons for doing so. It is now best for the game that you be lynched, as you will just continue to be a problem for the game until that happens.

Also, since you know very well that a bunch of votes were on you before that drama you freely instigated and carried out, you are also a

liar

for suggesting that your wagon is just people voting you for the drama.

Therefore, Lynch All Liars dictates you should be lynched. Your play is a cancer in this game and needs to be cut out. You don't seem willing to drop it; and in fact you seem very happy that it's there for you to keep bringing up as a smokescreen. Therefore, we cannot move on while you remain. Therefore in addition to LAL, you are policy lynch because the gamestate will continue to be harmed until you are gone.

Unvote

VOTE: KlingonCelt

I would like to note that my vote for KC was originally on well before the drama started, that I gave her a chance to stop with this crap, and that it will now stay on her until she's gone.

[Drixx]

@mod - I'm back from my brush with the hospital and all is well. Thanks for marking me V/LA, especially since my phone didn't do the bold tags for some reason when I posted.

[Drixx]

Sorry T S O. Feel free to peruse my off site games. I don't believe that I have

ever

seen a situation like this. I've certainly never been in a situation where it felt like an individual player was keeping something this unpleasant alive simply to act as a distraction. I'd like to be clear that my stance is strictly because KC is manipulating and leveraging a situation she fully and knowingly not only contributed to, but also intentionally made worse and "upped the ante" over and over until it drove another player out of the game. If it had been allowed to die, or if at least KC didn't continue to post almost exclusively about it and trying to use it to her advantage, I'd have been happy to move on.

[Drixx]

Sorry NS. I've dropped you a PM.

[Drixx]

[Drixx]

The lynch should be Albert B Rampage as far as I am concerned. The whole case against him can be seen by isolating his posts. There is exactly zero content aside from a few OMGUS arguments against me that are based on no manner of merit whatsoever.

I think it boils down to since he already knows who his partners are, there is not even the smallest effort put into scumhunting on his part.

He just went V/LA for a day or two, so perhaps you could take the time to make a case? You say it's super obvious in ISO. I had a scum read on him already so I am likely biased to buy what you're saying. Putting an actual case together might get others to seriously evaluate him?

[Drixx]

Can someone explain why the Klingonette wagon is scummy? Why should we townread that slot at all?

I'm not one of the people who said it was scummy, but I've been paying attention. The basic argument that's being put forward is this:

1.) The votes are opportunistic because of the conflict that the slot was involved in.
1a.) Point #1 implies that the votes were made after the conflict
2.) Non game-centric reasons are by definition scummy

The problem with the argument is that all of the votes, except yours, were in place before said situation occurred. It was a specious argument with no merit. If you ISO me, you can see reference to the two posts that drew attention to the slot being scummy. I would argue that a lot of what happened since reinforces that read. I'm personally a little confused by folks asserting that the slot isn't scummy at all. I've read it in ISO a couple times and I don't see anything in there that indicates townie motivation.

[Drixx]

My issue is that there is no case. The only points I've seen are that she might be SK.

May I paraphrase you for a moment?

"My issue is there is no case. I've seen several points making a case that the slot is scum."

You don't see anything even remotely contradictory in your position? Why are you chainsaw defending that slot so hard? If you see some evidence in the play from the slot that it's not scum, please point it out. Please don't waste our time by saying "I don't think the things you guys think are scummy are scummy" ... arguing that our reads are off isn't really evidence of anything. Point out where that slot has actually tried to progress the town wincon, because I've read it both when I replaced in and in ISO since, and I don't see it.

[Drixx]

You haven't even responded to my post pointing out the two places where she appears to have SK slipped. You claim you don't know where the slip is and you claim to have read the game closely enough to get a town read on the slot, and yet you somehow missed several people pointing out the slips, including my post which gave you precise post numbers to look at?

The reason I've stayed on the slot with my vote instead of swapping to the arguably more scummy ABR slot is twofold:

1.) I want to see the slot replacement handle the situation with the pressure still on.
2.) ABR has just gone V/LA and so putting pressure on him to reply is about as useless an idea as I can think of.

As for the few folks who seem to be hard White Knighting the slot ... that's certainly a reason to re-evaluate the slot and see if it reads as mafia scum instead of SK scum.

[Drixx]

If you replace into a slot where everyone has moved on from the things which they found scummy, simply because a replacement is pending, are you going to be anywhere near as motivated as you would be if you were the defacto lynch choice for the day? That value of ensuring the replacement has to commit to the game and put themselves there isn't nothing.

[Drixx]

That was a bit of an odd exchange. I take it you two have a history?

[Drixx]

Part of good play is to realize when you should and shouldn't respond to something that mentions you. I am going to go ahead and say that I probably would have responded if you had targeted me with that though davesaz. It's easy to say after the fact that you meant it to read other people, but you could just as easily have accused him of being scummy for not addressing it at all.

A contra example would be what Egg has been doing with his "reads" on me for awhile now. His read on my slot was fine until I started pointing out things in his play that didn't make sense, and then lo and behold he started scum reading me. He's basically doing a more subtle version of OMGUS with his posts and his avoidance of responding to me or trying to get me to respond to him.

What you posted RE: Aneninen looked a lot like you wanted to see how he would respond, at least to me. And for the record, I'm not trying to defend Aneninen or his play; I've seen some things that read as town motivated and some things that don't out of him. I am not really commenting on him at all, other than to say that you seem to be trying to play it both ways and I'm not sure that's a great approach. If you are gonna scum read the guy whether he responds or not, that's not really scumhunting. If you actually are trying to get reads on other people, it should probably be a little more clear than it was, because I didn't see that.

My thoughts, for whatever they're worth.

[Drixx]

Perhaps it wasn't so much subtle as just not very strong. When I'm questioning someone and they don't respond directly but start scum reading me, I view that as a subtle form of OMGUS. Of course, I spent years playing with a fairly limited pool of people, so the variation on behavior wasn't exactly endless.

Thank you for replying and helping make my point to davesaz though. I was clearly poking you for a response and you obliged.

[Drixx]

I think I tend to be less outright questions and more interacting with things people say, pointing out flaws or counterpoints, and seeing how folks react. It's a sorting mechanism for me to figure out who appears to be paying real attention to the game vs. coasting. It's also useful in another way that I'd rather not just spit out in case it isn't super obvious to all of you already.

[Drixx]

I have "pings" right now an if I told them, that would change certain players' forthcoming posts. Is that clear?

I don't see why you should have anything to be worried about.

If you're Town, why wouldn't you be sharing your honest views without fear of criticism or change?

You should be voicing your concerns sooner rather than later.

If he points out what he's looking for, then whomever he's trying to get a read on will be aware of what he's evaluating and act accordingly. This is like Mafia 100 level theory, isn't it? Don't tell the scum how you are trying to trip them up.

The only case where I'd prefer someone completely open up on their thoughts is if the day is in danger of wrapping up and it could be their last chance. In that case, it's always better for the town and scum to know than for the town not to know and scum maybe knows. Scum has the information advantage, and so in general we should be as open about what we're seeing/thinking as possible. This applies to little traps and snares we set in the course of a day

after

they have been responded to by the intended parties, unless the day is in danger of wrapping up imminently, and then the information is more useful than any marginal potential trip up holding it close might cause.

In shorter terms: Anen seems to be trying to get me or someone else to respond to something and has asked everyone else to butt out until he gets what he's after. If he still won't talk about it at that point, then we should feel free to read something about him into the situation. Until then, all you guys are doing is screwing with something he's doing for no real reason that I can see.

[Drixx]

Apologies for my part in it T S O. For whatever it's worth, I was attempting to steer everyone away from bringing it up over and over again just before the force replace. I apologize if my posts trying to get it out of the thread contributed to how you feel. I hope we can play in another game unmarred. Good luck mate.

[Drixx]

People who rely on VCA as a strong tool for finding scum tend to jump to conclusions Garmr. I have no idea why people insist on applying a large scale probabilistic observation to individual cases. The context and timing of events is much more useful for finding scum than VCA, especially if the scum know about VCA and feed in results that are indistinguishable from random.

As for ABR ... I've gotten a scum vibe off of him for awhile now. Now that he's back it may be a good time to push him a bit and see?

For the moment, I'm waiting to see if ARS settles down and does a thorough analysis of the game or if we're gonna get this hyper rush to judgment indefinitely. Hard to gauge a fresh replace in who has 1500 posts to catch up on.

[Drixx]

Need to catch up. I'm just trying to avoid a prod before it happens

Such a nice Beetlejuice! Especially since you'd been not even

near

to a prod before that post.

VOTE: Dragonspawn

You're just upset that I called you on your bad reads

This is a really good example of what Anen is calling the "regardless of" card. No matter what he says or does, a couple people are interpreting it as scummy.

There's two ways to approach evaluating evidence. One of them is hilariously wrong (but most people do it all the time) and the other has a much better chance of being right.

1.) You form no opinion and let the evidence guide you. If the evidence says X, I want to believe X. If the evidence says Not X, I want to believe Not X.

2.) You form an opinion and look for evidence you can make fit said opinion.


Why is this obvious thing worth my time to mention? By definition, scum have to do #2 all the time. If you are able to evaluate things objectively, you'll have a much better chance to catch them doing it.

[Drixx]

I think that it only works as a tool in context, which is essentially what you both have said. Once you have a context, some confirmed information and you can view events through that lens and use VCA to sort and prioritize, it becomes a helpful tool.

I just cringe every time I see someone base their entire read on it. ARS looked at one vote count and jumped to a series of conclusions, which is what made me cringe.

[Drixx]

Wake or House would be excellent lynches today. I think we should focus on those two.

Works for me, I hate playing town.

Why? I understand liking the scum side of things (see my response to Elusive's RVS questions), but playing this game you're gonna be town way more often than scum. There's not anything about the challenge of town play that you enjoy? I personally enjoy the challenge and puzzle of it all, even if it's sometimes frustrating as all get out. Just this first day in this game there is already so much to evaluate and figure out, and we don't seem all that close to the end yet ... and this is an open setup!

I know this is mostly non game relevant but I like to get to know folks I play with and that comment struck me as sort of odd given that you will be town around 2-3x as often as you'll be scum on the long term. It also seems counter-intuitive to me for someone to enjoy scum but be apathetic as town. That would quickly result in you being pretty easy to identify when scum came up, as you would be pretty hard pressed to hide your enthusiasm if the gap is so wide.

I'll totally understand if you'd rather wait to answer until after the game, or even not at all. You don't know me or owe me the answer to questions about your personal motives and such.

[Drixx]

You haven's struck me as particularly apathetic so far this game. I generally also discount meta as anything more than a weak sorting tool because it's just too easy to manipulate, but I suppose I ought to check out your games and see if I can see a difference between this game and your prior scum and town games. Kinda sucks though that town doesn't entertain you. I find the tension and anxiousness, especially at endgame, to be pretty appealing. Trying to solve the puzzle with scum actively working to mislead me and my fellow townies being in the same position as me is always a fresh experience each time. The variables and such are always different so it is essentially infinitely new each time.

Day 1 in the dark is ... considerably less fun. Coming up on 1600 posts and counting already. Doing a re-read after we get confirmed info is gonna be brutal.

[Drixx]

Wake or House would be excellent lynches today. I think we should focus on those two.

They are practically the same personality, I can't tell the difference. Stern logical types, serious about scumhunting, both want to be doctors.

I latched onto Wake. Then shortly afterward, House jumped in and said that freeko is "scum as fuck"...but then immediately voted me. When I call him out on this inconsistent behavior, he backpedaled instantly and voted freeko after only a handful of posts. I'm calling it now, Wake and House are scum. House tried clumsily to defend Wake but then backed off once he realized it made no sense.

Now Wake himself is pretty scummy too. We've been in this game for two weeks and the only votes he's made were RVS votes at the start of the game (literally his first two posts.) It's not like he's inactive. I haven't done the math but quickly glancing at the "activity overview" for this game, he's slightly more active than average. Yet all he's doing is making generic comments without taking a stand. He's clearly trying to keep his head down while more dramatic fights are breaking out.

Lynch either of them today but I would prefer Wake.

I know you are not dumb. And I'm not saying you're dumb.

I will say that I have been saying for some time that I am also very busy with work, and cannot get into the game nearly as deeply as other players are. And what you've failed (or refused) to read is that reserving my vote is part of my meta. I'll ease into this game as I am able, and if I have to put myself on indefinite LA then I will. As for the dramatic fights, they're nothing but stupid noise and I don't care for them. They're a distraction and few listen to me when I say ignore it and focus on the game itself. I want to start generating focused reads: I am currently in another 5-day work marathon. If you think that makes me suspicious, then I can't really help you on that.

This is really disingenuous. You have been active enough to read and make posts. Claiming that your work is keeping you from engaging while you are engaging in a "safe" way doesn't make sense. Either you have enough time to read and evaluate or you don't. If you don't and that isn't likely to change in the near future, the best thing you can do is replace out,

especially

if you're being honest and you will end up a mislynch if your wagon gains momentum. It doesn't seem to me that we will learn a whole lot if you stay in the game and continue to give so little contribution and end up a mislynch as a result. I didn't think your RVS was anything to consider scummy, but even with the benefit of the doubt I gave you since you claimed to have announced an impending change of style, I'm starting to get pinged by your posts.

It feels a lot like you're mailing this in, if you get the expression. What you're saying doesn't really line up with how frequently you have posted. Something isn't adding up.

FOS

@ Wake.

[Drixx]

Elusive, I'm with you on pursuing inactives. In my experience so far, I've found that any general statement doesn't seem to really bother them. Do you have a couple in mind you'd like to poke first? I'm sure we can ISO and find something (or a lack of anything) to ask them about.

[Drixx]

I go where the momentum shifts.

Wow. That's like blatantly scummy. Why on earth would you adopt this as a strategy, and why would you say so?

[Drixx]

VOTE: Flubbernugget

There's a wagon I could get on and ride into the sunset.

If PL's weren't frowned upon, I'd be up for stringing him up every game based on his avatar alone.

But it is, so I'll assume you have some other reason.

Care to share?

Sure, House:
1. Had an overreaction at least two times in thread
2. Makes really reasonable sounding points at times but not enough of them
3. His wagon confirms some things towards TSO\SW\davesaz slots
4. He used "tumblrwhore" as if it were a negative thing when he wishes

Mostly he should talk more. Voting people does wonders for there talking abilities

Oh, P.S. I hate policy lynches.

1.) Can you link to them? Flubber doesn't stick in my memory, but we're almost 1700 posts in, so that's not necessarily indicative of him at all.
2.) There are a lot of people who aren't really doing anything. Why do you prefer to push Flubber over people who are flaunting a prod dodge no content play style? If low activity is your problem, Flubb strikes me as

far

from the worst offender.
3.) What would you learn about TSO / SW / Davesaz if he were to flip town? What about scum? (I'm interested in your thinking/theorycrafting here. I am still a n00b on site, so this is more for my learning than anything else).
4.) Was that in reference to that one slot who has posted a few gifs and almost nothing else? Shiiro or something?

If you want people to talk more, why are you going after someone who's actually posting fairly frequently compared to the least active several? (Again, curious why you picked someone who is average activity instead of lurking).

I do not frown upon PL. Or voting lurkers. There isn't much that I outright frown upon.

Finally something I can agree with you on. I usually keep a rating of player activity (I updated every day when I played 48 hour days, I've adjusted to like twice a day phase here) from 5 (super active and engaged) down to 1 (lurking so hard will be force replaced), and I have kept track of where scum tend to fall over the years. I don't have a huge amount of data yet for this site, but so far scum tend to fall mostly in 2 (lurking as a strategy, no danger of being replaced) and 4 (above average activity, but not so active as to dominate the game and draw attention or risk slips more than necessary).

I despise Category 4 and 5 lurkers. Category 4 is worse than 5 because those players tend to be left alive by scum (or be scum), and they are problematic at end game.

Does this board have a rule about avatars?

Not that I'm aware of. Having a unique avatar is helpful for other people though. It's very easy to associate posts with people's avatars. Wake and House having similar avatars is a bit frustrating this game, for example.

[Drixx]

EBWOP - My

FoS

at ABR just slimmed down to a

Fingernail of Suspicion

. For a bit there you were really pinging my scumdar and confusing me. I'm glad to see a productive impulse that makes sense.

[Drixx]

Does this board have a rule about avatars?

Not that I'm aware of. Having a unique avatar is helpful for other people though. It's very easy to associate posts with people's avatars. Wake and House having similar avatars is a bit frustrating this game, for example.

Anybody that is legitimately frustrated by perceived similarities between our avatars (Wake's and mine) seriously needs to get their eyes checked.

The only similarity is the character in the avatar, but even that is not similar if you're paying any attention at all. And for those who aren't paying attention, let them be frustrated.

I'm not getting any younger and I very much enjoyed the show. It's not like they're exact, it's just that I immediately recognize the character and have to do a double take to differentiate and remember which is which. It's a very small bit frustrating. I'm not like super upset or irritated or anything.

[Drixx]

Very nice looking avatar Saint. Why did you vote ABR? There was much more scummy vibes from him before ... now that he's moving towards looking townie you vote. What did you see?

[Drixx]

Is it safe to let out our breath now and continue on? Things feel like they're getting back to normalish.

[Drixx]

If we're gonna lynch based upon someone posting but not putting anything at all productive into the game, we should go after Shiiro or Tex. It's possible that Garmr is scum, but why would scum be active and intentionally avoid putting content into the game? That seems like a really good way to get caught. Am I allowed to site Occam's Razor? Because it totally would cause me to conclude that someone who is both lurking

and

putting little to no actual content in the game is much more likely to be scum than someone who is active.

[Drixx]

Wow, someone was scummy enough to get me to move my vote. I suppose only 2 of us pressuring the slot wasn't going to get the replacement to take it very seriously. That's a shame because I'm still pretty sure that slot is SK.

Unvote

The suspense... it's killing you right?

I'm gonna ....

vote for ...

VOTE: DeltaWave

Wins the award for scummiest day 1 post ever.

[Drixx]

That's an odd reply from someone who wanted everyone to vote someone before he got a chance to put together what he's said in a couple posts is a thorough content laden post. Wanting to silence someone is what got you my vote, in case you missed that. Care to comment?

[Drixx]

Wake ... it's not that I don't read you scummy. In fact, I kind of do. It just has been light scum and I'm not gonna bandwagon onto a vote I'm not convinced of unless I have to.

Let me be REALLY clear. If this post you're making isn't persuasive and impressive ... you aren't winning any points.

[Drixx]

@Drixx, maybe we shouldn't run wagons on anyone because we'd be "silencing" them. This is just the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen playing mafia.

You can't have it both ways. You're specifically pushing a wagon on him because he hasn't posted what he says he's made significant work on drafting and is coming soon. Why do you want us all to hop on before we see that draft? That really strikes me as super shady. I'll be voting Wake if this post of his isn't really good.

[Drixx]

If we're gonna lynch based upon someone posting but not putting anything at all productive into the game, we should go after Shiiro or Tex.

But why Drixx? Why? ;~;
Seriosly though what has flubber done that makes his lynch less favourable to mine and Tex in your eyes?

Yo drix you didn't answer that

Take a look at your ISO an then Flubber's, and try to tell me

honestly

that you've contributed more to the game and put more of yourself there for us to read than Flubber.

Nuff said, I think. Be careful what you wish for.

[Drixx]

So once Wake posts his epic analysis (which will probably be 40% self-aggrandizement, 35% talking about how he's sooo busy, and 25% limp-wristed and barely committal opinion), can we all agree that we're going to kill him off when we're down to the wire on time?

What wake's post looks like will determine whether or not I think he deserves another day phase (when presumably he'll get less busy). I've currently got 3 tiers of folks I'd be willing to vote:

1.) Shiiro, Texcat - Both for coasting and having some posts in the ISO that just feel "off" to me. I tend to look very unfavorably upon coasting as a strategy, so I get it if others don't feel as strong about these two as me. That said, I've seen scum coast into end game WAY too many times.

2.) House, DeltaWave, Wake, KC slot - There are pretty decent scum cases for each of these. Wake can drop himself out of my focus today if this coming big post does a couple things I'm looking for. Obviously, I'm not going to tell him what he needs to do to satisfy me ahead of time. Someone remind me if I forget to say so afterward please.

3.) Everyone else - It would take a solid scum case, but I am not ruling anyone out. I don't have a strong "I'm certain he/she/it's town" read on anyone yet.

[Drixx]

2) Why are we continuing to try to wagon new people?
. Holy Cow, we have enough wagons already. stahp.

Notice that how much I get wagoned is proportional to the pressure I put on wake.

Yeah, no. You don't get to try and wiggle out of that incredibly scummy play you made. Nobody put a gun to your head and made you post that we should lynch someone before he has a chance to address the main criticism of his play and make a substantive post. You keep hammering about how Wake has made posts and hinting that he's therefore

lying

about being busy. You do realize it's super easy to just make a quick post right? That can be done in a spare minute or two. Wading through nearly 2k posts and making cases? That takes considerable time and effort. Therefore, Wake hasn't actually said anything that doesn't line up with his play, despite your implications.

You, on the other hand, wanted to get the day over and him lynched before he had time to make this post. That just isn't a town play. Period. Your refusal to address how scummy your play was and attempts to deflect against anyone who points it out isn't making you look any better. If you're town, get off the defensive kick and explain what you were thinking, because right now you just keep reinforcing the scum read.

[Drixx]

I noted that I found DeltaWave scummy at least once some days ago Shiro. Please explain to me how #1840 and #1842 by DeltaWave are in any way remotely townie. They are outright demands that everyone vote Wake, before Wake has had a chance to post something he said he was working on. Why would a townie not want to see that post? If Wake is scum then that's more information for us later. If Wake is town, that post should come across as authentic and provide useful information. Either way, there's no reason to try and lynch Wake before he posts it.

Explain to me where my thoughts are wrong about this. I'm pretty darned sure that they're not though. As I said earlier, I'm gonna be looking for a couple specific things I'd expect from a town player when Wake's post comes. If he doesn't satisfy me, I'll probably vote him. He's not the scummiest read from today, but he is on the scum side of the spectrum and I'd rather lynch someone I think might be scum (Wake) instead of someone that I've read as very town all game (House) and the case against whom I still don't think makes sense.

[Drixx]

It didn't even occur to DeltaWave to say that he didn't mean to lynch Wake right away, but rather to put pressure on him to get the post done ASAP. If DeltaWave had responded in that fashion, it would have instantly nullified me reading his push for people to pile on as being scummy. I pushed him specifically to see if it was just poor phrasing on his part. I didn't expect him to grant the premise that he wanted Wake lynched before Wake could post the coming case against Texcat, and yet that's exactly what DeltaWave did.

It seems to me that if I hadn't pressed him about it, everyone else was likely to believe he meant what a townie would mean with those posts; i.e. that we should put pressure on Wake via votes to get him to finish the post and not leave us scrambling to decide the lynch super late.

It only looks like a bad scum play in hindsight. If I had said nothing and people had just gone with the flow, it's possible we may have lynched Wake before he makes that post. If Wake is a probable lynch target for today, doesn't it make sense to let him make the promised post first, no matter how he ends up flipping? Scum can only hurt their teammates with posts, even when they're attempting to interject WIFOM, and if we just read him poorly because he's busy and he flips town, we have his thoughts on most probable scum to look at.

There's no outcome where killing him before he posts is a good plan. What has me pretty focused on Delta right now is the fact that he didn't even try and make the town argument for his actions. It's looks like it never even occurred to him.

Tell me where my analysis is flawed, if you see anything wrong with it.

[Drixx]

@Elusive - Why are you buying the BS Delta is selling? My questioning and making a case against DeltaWave is simply because what he did was really scummy, and when he had a chance to respond and give a townie motivation for his play, he accepted my assertion that he wanted Wake dead before Wake could make the post. Me pushing Delta for a scummy move has nothing to do with anyone except Delta. Read my last few posts in ISO and you'll see where I'm watching for a couple specific things in Wake's forthcoming post. If that post doesn't meet those things I'm looking for, it will significantly boost Wake's scumminess in my eyes. Offense against one player does not constitute defense of another. If I had a strong feeling that Wake was town, I'd defend him as such.

Where I

will

defend Wake is on the RL front. Decades ago when I sustained my SCI, my mother went back to school and became an R.N., and the amount of work and hours along the way were absolutely astounding. After a couple decades as first a children's oncology nurse and then a surgical nurse, she went back to school and got two Master's degrees and became a Nurse Practitioner/Public Health Nurse and she runs a department in a top 5 hospital for that particular specialty in the country now. The amount of hours she has worked over the last 30 or so years in that field would astound you. If Wake is working on making his way into that field, he probably is super busy.

I can't believe you don't realize that there's a difference between taking a couple minutes to make a post vs. taking an hour or more evaluating someone in ISO and in context to be thorough. It will be one thing if Wake doesn't come through with the post he's got in draft at the moment, or if said post is underwhelming, etc... but you seem eager to prosecute him before the fact. If your sole criticism of Wake is that he hasn't yet contributed a lot of substance, then why aren't you going after the fairly substantial list of people who have contributed even less? I don't think any of them have let us know they're preparing a substantial post at the moment, so theoretically, they are gonna be even further behind pretty soon here.


I think that I just disagree on a fundamental level with singling out people for not doing something they say is in progress and will be in the game soon, when there are loads of other people who could be singled out for the same thing, and aren't being held to the same scrutiny. Inconsistent standards in reading people bother me, because town has no motivation to hold different people to different standards. If something is scummy from one player, that same something should be scummy for all players, right?

[Drixx]

@Drixx to me it seemed like paranoia tbh
You analysis is pretty narrow cause it lacks a reason a scum motive behind the attack

There are plausible scum motives, and you and Elusive are proving the point that it only looks like it would be bad scum play in hindsight because I noticed it and pressured Elusive.

The only viable scum reason delta might have is if he is scum with text and he suddenly went oh shit I need to get wake lynched ASAP before he uncover her. Which to me seems really improbable cause it is such a bad ide.
As town that is a bit paranoid of wake I can delta acting as he did.

In other new house still ignores me ;~;

The

only

motive? I don't presume to think that I can think of everything that might motivate someone. What I do know is that the town motive I can think of never came out of Delta, and it should have been as simple as "No, that was poorly worded and/or you misunderstood. I wanted to put pressure on Wake so he doesn't drag his feet." or something similar. This has a lot more to do with how Delta responded after I pressured him than the original scummy move. His response makes the original action look more scummy.

p.edit:Drixx Do you really find the notion of someone being paranoid that wake isn't as busy as he says?
Like I said I agree delta post were bad the thing is the only only scum motive I see is so bad I cannot see why someone would do it. Paranoid town at least makes a little bit of sense.
I do not think anyone would actually go through and quick quick lynch wake asap cause delta said so. It just too bad as scum

I think it's generally a bad idea to assume someone is lying about RL.


@Shiro RE #1912 - I'm all for pressing inactives/coasters, and I think the last read I gave on Elusive was town leaning. I didn't aim my comment about holding everyone to the same standards specifically at Elusive.


@all - I'm not immune to tunneling. If you have some reason that you read DeltaWave as town or think that I'm misreading his reaction here, please set me straight. Otherwise, I feel like his response just doesn't jive with being townie. This is a pretty classic scenario of scum getting caught trying to push an opportunistic wagon I think. It lines up a lot with how scum generally think and behave. A lot of people have expressed a willingness to lynch Wake, so that's a wagon scum generally feel they can push without too much attention. The only reason Delta got my attention was the timing and way he pushed with those two posts. He kept my attention by failing to respond to my pressure in a townie way.

Again ... if I'm misreading his response, show me where. So far all I see is people questioning whether scum would make the initial play. Nobody seems willing to defend Delta's responses nor make a case for him being town. Even if you disagree that the original play was scummy, there's still the responses to explain. Absence of obvious scum motive is not evidence for an absence of possible scum motive. How many of us perfectly read scum motives so well, when it comes right down to it? If any of us were

that

good, we'd already have the scum team identified.

[Drixx]

You just slipped back into the null category for me Shiro. Why weren't you interacting and giving your actual thoughts and speculations before now?

More of invested and interested Shiro please!

[Drixx]

Delta ... at least be honest with yourself mate. Quite a few of us have expressed willingness to vote for Wake. I freely admit that I was expecting you to reaction

considerably

different from the way you did to my vote and questioning, and that reaction has got me tunneled on you a bit. Here we are the next day and no Wake post though ...

[Drixx]

Elusive, not for nothing, but I asked you to make a case that Delta is

town

already. You made some odd post about how you didn't think scum would make the play that he did. You didn't address his totally over the top scummy follow ups, nor did you address my point that since the only two people to respond to me felt like scum wouldn't make that play, it is actually not an obvious bad play at all, but rather looks just like normal scum opportunism.

Not a small amount of people have voiced a willingness to vote Wake. It's not like Wake is a hard wagon to get rolling, despite Delta's protests about how many votes are

currently

on him.

So this time, I'm going to ask you to do something

harder

. Explain away Delta's scummy behaviour in his (non)response to my push,

and

make a logical, objective, rational case that Delta is town, using

only his posts

. I don't care what your opinion is about what scum might or might not do. A 2nd game mafia player can tell you that scum do unpredictable things, so your skepticism is worse than useless. You say Elusive is

obvtown

so this should be a ridiculously easy exercise for you.


@Wake - Where's that post? I'm all about arguing for people to be treated fairly, but you're stretching my patience.

[Drixx]

EBWOP - Last sentence of 3rd paragraph should say "You say DeltaWave is

obvtown

so this should be a ridiculously easy exercise for you."

*sigh*

[Drixx]

I'm noting your patience thins as the wagon speeds up for possible associatives.

If we lynch house today, wake is flashwagoned unless his first post is the read he promised. That gives him at least three days to construct his read. Fair compromise?

Or perhaps it's way less sinister than all of that. Read my ISO ... it's not like I just suddenly decided I thought Wake was a candidate to lynch just now. I don't like it when people gain my sympathy by talking about RL stuff, promise that they are significantly progressed in an important post, and then disappear out of the thread for the better part of a day, conveniently disappearing right around the time I am voicing the opinion that we should let said person have his say before we decide. I'm sitting here holding the idiot bag at the moment, and time is ticking away.

[Drixx]

So Elusive ignores my post because it's uncomfortable for her and she would have to actually give an explanation for the WK on Delta? I recall some earlier reference to play on other sites (and Ika's White Knighting on her behalf). I expect experienced players to respond to the hard questions. This chainsaw defense of Delta while ignoring the request for actual rational reasoning is starting to make me think I really did stumble onto something more than a townie slip on DeltaWave.

[Drixx]

What's up with people who can't put forth the effort to make a logical argument? I've practically begged people to pick apart my reasoning, and all I get is willful ignorance (Elusive) and bullshit like what Nik just posted. I've been transparently open and asking for someone to pick apart my logic, and yet the "best" response I get is Nik calling me scum?

If you guys don't have time to play the game at a deeper level than "My indigestion says X is scum and Y is town", then replace out already. It's insulting to those of us spending time and practically begging you all to get involved. If you can show me where my logic went wrong, then please do so. Otherwise, you're just cluttering the thread with more uselessness.

[Drixx]

As per rule 24: Bah! I didn't read rule 27.

Removed extraneous quotes. ~~NS