Mafia 17: The Old Pond - Game over!

[mathcam]

confirmorama.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, we could just look around and see which of us looks like a crane...

Cam

[mathcam]

I feel like Leo wouldn't have put a clue in there....I think it was probably just included for ambiene, but who knows?

~~ Is tempted to vote for Mathcam because "he's alive so he must be evil"~~

Yeah, I was waiting for someone to bring it up. Maybe that curse only belongs to minis?

Now, on to dicussing Thoth's avatar...

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, I think Diotima put forth the best argument so far:

Vote: Darkblade

Cam

[mathcam]

Though I'm intrigued by DP's attack on Macros, I think the attack on Untrod seems more legitimate. If for no other reason than Macros seems very sure.

Vote: Macros

Cam

[mathcam]

I agree with massive, and if Diotima doesn't stop writing 3 instead of "e", he'll be my choice for tomorrow's target.

Cam

[mathcam]

Though I'm intrigued by DP's attack on Macros, I think the attack on Untrod seems more legitimate. If for no other reason than Macros seems very sure.

Vote: Macros

Cam

Hmm, am I reading this wrong, or did you say that macros' attack on untrod was more believable to you than the attack on him, and then vote for him yourself?

Yup, I meant to vote for Untrod. My bad.

Unvote: Macros, Vote: Untrod Tripod

.

And I missed Diotima's post about the broken keyboard. Never mind the threat in my last post then. Sorry about that.

Cam

[mathcam]

A thought, Diotima: Just highlight and use Control+C to copy an "e" to the clipboard and then a Control+V to paste it each time. Or copy one from the character map. Or everyone post a lot more so that I have something to do other than think of ways for Diotima to get e's into his posts.

Cam

[mathcam]

What exactly WAS up with DP back there?

Especially the immediate backing-down.

Cam

[mathcam]

[quote]First bandwagon leader is lynched if more than 50% of majority[/quote[

I'm not sure I understand. Isn't

anyone

lynched if they have more than 50% of the majority, regardless of whether they led a bandwagon?

Dasquian, while there is of course some truth to your complaints about slowness, note that you yourself are not on the leading bandwagon. This in itself is not a bad thing, but it does mean that you have the responsibility of trying to convince us to leave the bandwagon for what you think is a better candidate.

Cam

[mathcam]

It's actually Untrod's silence that is compelling my vote to stay there. Where's the empassioned defense? Or at least a vehement outlash at his attackers? I'm not sure he's said

anything

but unvote and roll his eyes at us. To me, this is a sign of scum. As for SaberKitty, I don't think she's lurking, I think she's inactive. She'd be better replaced than killed, but chances are she'll pop back into this game at some point.

And as for tomorrow, we'll have plenty of stuff to talk about. Namely, whatever Untrod turns out to be will have serious implications about the guilt or innocence of several other players in the game. we'll have to look at SaberKitty, Macros, maybe DP, etc., based on this result.

Cam

[mathcam]

...and plus, he's obnoxious, so I'll have more fun if he's not around.

Cam

[mathcam]

If Untrod's a townie, how would this be considered a stilly townie screwup, wacky? Though it's possible it's a clever mafia ploy, it now seems more likely to me that he was telling the truth. I can't say I'm sad to see him go (aforementioned obnoxiousness), but I still would have unvoted if I were here. I'm going to be looking Wacky's way tomorrow.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, when he turns out not to be scum, we'll see now, won't we?

Cam

[mathcam]

Wait, so he's still alive? How bizarre.

Unvote: Untrod Tripod

for the time being.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, I don't mean to offend Untrod Tripod, but based on what I know about him, I doubt he actually checked the number of votes on him before he posted his last post. I think he probably thought he was dead, and felt like getting in a last post taking a jab at us before departing. And at the same time, Wacky's post made me extremely suspicious of him. Hence the unvote.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, I think he's a townie, and still won't be terribly sorry to see him go. It's not like I'm retracting that claim. But I still realize that if I feel he's innocent, which I do, then it's in my best interest as a townie not to lynch him.

Cam

[mathcam]

Does everyone else actually think Untrod Tripod is the kind of player who would spend time counting the number of votes on him, realize he was short, and then try to convince everyone that he wasa townie by faking an obnoxious "I told you so" goodbye? I sure don't, and honestly, I don't think most of you do either. I think it's just easier to leave your votes on Untrod than to actually bother thinking if he's really evil and then finding someone else to go after. Maybe I can at least make that last part easier.

Vote: Wacky

.

Cam

[mathcam]

I'm in a hurry, so I'll just drop in to say

"Nanny nanny poo poo" at Wacky for figuring him out yeserday,

and

"Nanny nanny poo poo" at the mafia for now reducing the probable nightly kill count by 1/2 by hitting the SK.



Cam

[mathcam]

Of course it could be a mafia ploy. Anything

could

be a mafia ploy. I don't think this is true in this case. I still think Untrod is likely a townie.

We're in pretty good shape here if we think that there were three stones to start with, but we've still got a lot of work. I haven't worked this out, but we probably have to make something like 3 out of 6 lynches correctly.

Unfortunately, there's little to be gained from the voting yesterday, as no one but Wacky knew who he was.

Cam

[mathcam]

I saved an innocent, for crying out loud! Okay, so he's not a confirmed innocent, but again I'd bet money on it.

Cam

[mathcam]

Exactly, I said I would, and then when it turned out I could, I did. I had full intent of all of these actions, so I'm not sure what it was you think I did accidentally. You think I, as mafia, went out of my way to save someone all the while bringing heaps of attention on myself. I think not.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, I'm flattered that you think I'm capably of the biggest most elaborately conceived ploy of all, but wouldn't probability seem to suggest the other vote is more likely?

Cam

[mathcam]

Well now, I'm confused. I thought the elaborate mafia ploy I was that I was mafia and came to the defense of the innocent Untrod Tripod and "saved" him to make myself appear innocent. This is at least plausible.

I agree with massive and Darkblade that the elaborate mafia ploy of me saying "Let me stick up for my about-to-be-lynched" fellow mafia UT is extremely unlikely (not to mention unelaborate).

But now that everyone's backing off me, maybe I should just of shut up. Oh well.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, I guess I'll follow Dp for now:

Vote: Corsato

Cam

[mathcam]

I hopped on the bandwagon in order to welcome any non-me bandwagon, which was unfortunately the only other bandwagon going at the time, and not one I was too keen on joining. That, and I believed DP's claim that Corsato was lurking.

Cam

[mathcam]

You should've checked mathcam, you of all people should know that you shouldn't follow someone blindly.

Well I totally agree, but my main motivation for blindly following was the non-me factor, not because I felt it was that important to go after lurkers, whether or not you were actually lurking. Yet I can't help but feel I'm digging myself a deeper hole here....

Cam

[mathcam]

DP has an excuse, because he has to post haikus...

Unless I'm missing something, DP is posting haikus every time solely out of his own volition. The front post is pretty clear about all the roles in this game.

Cam

[mathcam]

Okay, well the Ygg bandwagon was more appealing to me than the FD bandwagon in the first place, and

then

he goes on to vote me, making my decision that much easier.

Unvote: Corsato, Vote: Yggdrasil

Cam

[mathcam]

I mostly agree with massive, but even if he didn't claim, allowing a player a "last defense" post is often helpful.

Cam

[mathcam]

Yussirree Bob.

Cam

[mathcam]

Now

I'm

starting to become curious as to whether or not these haikus contain any information....


Cam

[mathcam]

Well, it doesn't necessarily have to reveal who evil is, especially not in the form of a player's username. I doubt the mod would put

that

much info in them. Still, they seem non-random.

Cam

[mathcam]

Hm, good point, SK. You're probably right.

On another note, Diotima's only posted 5 times in this game....

So I

Vote:Diotima

talks more.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, I'm not sure how to respond to Werebear's attack, mostly because everything he seems to say in there is pretty solid. Except for the part about me being scum. But if enough people agree, I can probably walk through decision by decision and what I was thinking at each time. But then again, if you buy his argument now, you'll probably buy it then, too.

As for my suspicions, I'm torn between Massive and Darkblade right now. I'll go with

Vote: Darkblade

for now.

Cam

[mathcam]

Now I

know

I've spent too much time on this site. Macros' posts are starting to make

sense

to me (at least gramatically).

Reading back, I do find massive's reactions to be the most suspicious. He argued somewhat vehemently that he didn't think there was any info in the haikus, and then when SK agreed by postulating her theory that the haikus just symbolized the death scenes, he argued against

that

as well. Unfortunately, I can't see how thiat has any relevance if it is indeed true that the death scenes have no information contained within. Why would a mafia fight to confuse the haiku issue if there was no gain to be had from it?

Nonetheless, he did act a little weird and it's stronger than the Darblade bandwagon (but just by a little), so

Unvote: Darkblade, Vote: Massive

Cam

[mathcam]

Okay, maybe not argued, but you still seemed to be leaning in that direction...

The only person still alive that even REMOTELY could be hinted by the first haiku is Corsato (if he were Haiku, his name would be longer in the middle - it's short - and shorter at the end - it's tall). It's a stretch, but interesting that he's the one who's trying to gloss over the possibility that the haikus mean something.

Well, I've looked for some kind of code in them ... the only thing I noticed was that the last two have ended with "in winter". Codebreaking ain't my strong point though.

Cam

[mathcam]

Okay, a misinterpretation, then. How I would argue there were no meanings in the haiku is by saying "Well, I certainly can't find them." But a) You're not me (except possibly according to Macros ), and b) You have posted several times in other places that you do think there might be a meaning.

But it also doesn't mean your not scum. I'll leave my vote for now, with an eye to change it if something better comes along.

Cam

[mathcam]

Oh, I meant Totem. Wow, that's ironic.

Cam

[mathcam]

As is my characteristic wishy-washy style, I'm now leaning the other way:

Unvote: Massive, Vote: Darkblade

That last post rang of non-scumminess to me.

Cam

[mathcam]

Not that I feel that strongly about Darkblade, but he's been pretty quiet too. No need to start a

new

bandwagon when we've already got a perfectly good one going.

Cam

[mathcam]

I wonder what sound Kerplunk would make if we push him into the pond.

I still have UT down as probably innocent in my book.

Cam

[mathcam]

This is true, and I mean no offense to UT, but this

is[/u] UT we're talking about, not a seasoned mafia veteran trying to make a subtle and clever maneuver that will go down in the history books.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, I still think UT is not suspicious, and that Darkblade is. I feel I should have something in addition to comment, but apparently this is simply not to be.

On, and hear hear for vanilla games, DP! Cops are for sucks.

Cam

[mathcam]

What were you planning on waiting for?

Cam

[mathcam]

Hmm. I just used this nifry new "View all posts by" option to skim through Darkblade's posts in the game. Unfortunately, none of them stuck out as scummy. I think I'll have to go re-read and see if I thought one of them was scummy in regards to posts surrounding his.

Cam

[mathcam]

Yup, despite having misinterpreted Massive the first time around, I've reread and I find it more likely that massive is scum than Darkblade, and certainly more likely that Massive is scum that NanookTheWolf.

Unvote: Darkblade, Vote: Massive

Cam

[mathcam]

Hey, flip-flopping is my style of play. I did not know that fact, though it's a nice little piece of trivia. I remain convinced that Nanook is innocent, and it will probably take mod revelation of his role upon death to convince me otherwise.

But all in all, you're right. Leading a counter-bandwagon to someone solely because I find them more suspicious than the current bandwagon is really only a justifiable strategy if we have a deadline. And we don't, so

Unvote: Massive

.

I agree there is only one doc.

Cam

[mathcam]

Vote: Flying Dutchman

for not having posted in 18 days.

Cam

[mathcam]

Wooee is this game lagging. The post at the top of this page was over a week ago.

My vote will stay.

Cam

[mathcam]

I'm a little confused...did SK die because she targeted a stone, or because they targeted her? Or both? Maybe we could look back and see who SK was most likely to target last night.

Cam

[mathcam]

That was basically my question as well, Corsato. That's why I wonder if "both" isn't the right answer to my stated question.

Cam

[mathcam]

It's pretty unusual for a protectee to be notified, and given the relative vanilla-ness of this game, I strongly doubt this would be any exception.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, I didn't redo a full read-through, but I read through yesterday and the one person I suspect SaberKitty might have targeted above all others is DP. They're both old-school players and seem to know each other reasonably well,

plus

DP's doing a pretty jood of job lying under the rader with his haiku posts, as if to make us wonder "Why would a mafia post solely in haikus?" I too had listed him under my "probably innocent" list until I started thinking that DP is good enough player to try something like this even when he's scum.

It's not a lot as far as arguments go, but it's my best stab right now.

Vote: Dragon Phoenix

Cam

[mathcam]

Looks fine to me, WB. Corsato?

Cam

[mathcam]

I'm currently not suspicious of either Massive

or

Dasquian. No one but Werebear (and probably DP) seem to have noted my post explaining my vote for DP. What does anyone else think?

Cam

[mathcam]

For what it's worth, I was basing my "Saberkitty and DP seem to know each other" on the fact that you included her as a role in DP7. I am becoming less and less suspicious of you, however, as other seem to rise to the forefront. I'll

Unvote: DP

for now, and hopefully have some amazing insight to share with you in the near future.

Cam

[mathcam]

I had no idea Ben was still in this game (or, rather, in it again). Lurk much, Ben?

Vote: BigBenWD

Cam

[mathcam]

I'm not sure the argument against Corsato is all that strong...but maybe there's something to it. I'm going to keep my vote on ben, as his play (or lack thereof) is highly unusual for him. Though I'm beginning to suspect he's just forgotten.

I

do

think kerplunk has made a good find in that Darkblade quote. If either Darkblade or Massive is revealed to be scum, I think we should take a good long look at the other. Showing that mock indecision is hard to resist when you're scum.

Cam

[mathcam]

Okay, ben's not lurking any more, and I wasn't all that suspicious of him in the first place.

Vote: darkblade

. That's 4 out of 6 needed.

Cam

[mathcam]

Mathcam would know that pro-town players ofen have more than one suspect and don't always vote their prime subject because well, mathcam does it all the time (see Holy Grail endgame with mathcam's long standing hunch that NS was scum.

Well, no one else (or at least very few others) agreed with me. There's no point letting your vote go to waste on someone who can't be lynched anyways.

But the "evidence" against Darkblade sure is rather flimsy. I'll have to

Unvote: darkblade

and think about this some more.

Cam

[mathcam]

Mathcam, it is the same situation int his game.

I was scum in that game, remember?

Let's do this:

Vote: Darkblade

Cam

[mathcam]

Why the hell would anyone kill massive? There were sure enough people suspicious of him to make it worth leaving him around. Odd, very odd.

Cam

[mathcam]

I'm sure I've done it before both as scum and as town, kerplunk.

But in any case, your two points against me are:

1) I was on the Darkblade bandwagon, and
2) I got off the Darkblade bandwagon.

It doesn't seem like you should be allowed to be suspicious of me for both.

Cam

[mathcam]

Yeah, I understood, and I even accept and agree with your reasoning for being suspicious of the bandwagonners. In fact, I share your suspicion. I just happen to be on the receiving end of the suspicion in this case, so I will defend myself.

Gut feeling tells me

you're

innocent, however....so if I'm to agree, I'll have to look in the diretion of WW, DP, Corsato, or Ben. (I think DP's away for a week)

Cam

[mathcam]

Hm. I did mean Nanook, and I have no idea how WW got in that list.

Cam

[mathcam]

I find it pretty likely that there was scum voting for scum at some point of this game, so I'm not sure how valid this is. Or am I missing something?

Cam

[mathcam]

Heh. I've voted for everyone except Dasquian. I guess I'll have to resist the temptation to finish off the list because I don't really find him that suspicious

and

he's not implicated by Werebear's list.

And speaking of making accusations and then not voting based on them...

look at mathcam on those bandwagons, 1,2,and 4

Vote: BigBenWD

Cam

[mathcam]

Okay, I misunderstood your list. But yeah, my attempted point earlier was much more eloquently stated by Werebear above. But I guess it really comes down to playing styles. I would say experienced players are moer willing to vote for their comrades than less experienced players, so it's a pretty tough call in general.

And now I'm wondering if Ben has some other motive, like killing me or something.

Cam

[mathcam]

Okay....do you have anything

else

to contribute?

Cam

[mathcam]

Yup, I like my Ben vote, and DP's slowly inching his way up to second.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, DP and dasquian didn't get spots in your list.

Cam

[mathcam]

Okay, partly done re-reading, and the only new comment I have is that I doubt a scummy bigbenwd would be pushing so hard for a specific individual lynch (namely, in this case, myself), so I'll

Unvote: BigBenWD

I'm also less suspicious of Corsato than I was at the start of the reread, which leaves me with my best guess:

Vote: DP

Cam

[mathcam]

Sigh, I'm just not sure. The one thing that sticks out now is that DP's usually not this adamant about any particular vote, at least not that I can remember.

Unvote, Vote: DP

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, that was amusing, wasn't it?

Unvote: DP, Vote: Werebear

Cam

[mathcam]

Hm? My post above was saying "I don't feel like I remember DP being this adamant about votes in particular. That doesn't seem like scum behavior to me, and maybe he's picking up a read on Werebear that I'm missing. Thus, I will unvote DP and follow DP's vote on Werebear."

Sorry if there was too much subtext to that. Terse? All but one post on this page is a 1- or 2-liner.

Cam

[mathcam]

As does mine. I'm not sure what to say to you, kahunia, except you're wrong. And I'm still convinced UT (now Nanook) is innocent. Perhaps wrong, but still convinced.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, if nothing else, we'll start learning a lot of information as soon as we finally hit a scum here. I'm slightly concerned that DP, Werebear, Corsato, and I are all suspicious of each other, and Kerplunk, Dasquian, Ben, kahunia (and, I suppose, Nanook) are flying under the radar, when it's almost certainly true that at least one of them is scum.

Unvote: Werebear

. I think both the DP and the Corsato bandwagons look more appealing to me. However, I find voting in this situation to be dangerous for me. With various people or groups of people suspecting me, if I vote for someone who turns out to be innocent, it will only reinforce some people's ideas that I'm scum with the other people on that bandwagon. Hm.

Cam

[mathcam]

Despite that not really being a sentence...

Well, top 5 out of 9 really isn't that bad, when you think about it. I agree that trying to lynch scum is important, but so is not appearing scum-like, regardless of actual alleigance. But you have a point, and if I had a strong feeling one way or another on who was scum, I would be voting for them.

Cam

[mathcam]

Okay, I've re-read the last ten pages so far, and I'll get to the whole thing later. Topics:

a) Ben. Let me save you the trouble of re-reading, Ben. You posted repeatedly yesterday that you thought Corsato and I were scum together. That you now claim to be unsure seems somewhat disingenuous.

FOS: Ben

for false naivety.

b) Me. Yeah, scummy Corsato was claiming that he thought me to be innocent. What can I say? He was right, and frankly, I think he made valid arguments in my defense.

b) DP and Werebear. I'm still more suspicious of DP than of Werebear, in particular DP's line "I'm betting on Werebear, Nanook and mathcam as well. I'll happily lead or follow a bandwagon on any of these three." Not that there's anything suspicious about being wrong, but he happened to pick 2 of 3 people I'm almost positive are innocent, and managed to leave off the one person we now know to be scum.

c) Kahunia:

If we lynch Corsato or Dragon Phoenix, it is a big mistake.

Essentially the same reasoning as DP above. Not that there's anything really suspicious about being wrong, but it does catch one's eye on a re-read.

Cam

[mathcam]

Not that I've been the most active player myself recently, but maybe we could get a mod prod on Dasquian?

Cam

[mathcam]

Wow, 11 minutes between a call for de-lurking and an actual de-lurking. Hmmm.

Cam

[mathcam]

Idunno, but I've been waiting some time for someone else to pick up some scum vibes from Ben.

Vote: BigBenWD

Cam

[mathcam]

No, "Finally someone agrees with me that he's scummy. Me voting for him by myself wasn't doing much good earlier, so now that I've got some support, my vote might actually do something."

Cam

[mathcam]

Hm. Having re-read through all your posts, I no longer find you extremely suspicious. You're at the same level of scumminess as you always are to me, so you're probably fine. In particular, the tone of your posts makes me think Ben and Corsato were not co-mafia together. And without any SKs, that means Ben's pro-town, at least enough for an unvote for now.

Unvote: BigBenWD

I'm not sure who of Werebear and DP to suspect right now, which leaves me with Dasquian and Kahunia. Dasquian is a bug lurker-head, but Kahunia made strong defensive statements with respect to Corsato yesterday. It's close.

Cam

[mathcam]

I'm reasonably happy with lynching Kahunia.

Cam

[mathcam]

Why would the scum eliminate Nanook, who has been on the scum radar of some of us (certainly mine), and leave Dasquian alone? Dasquian has received little attention in terms of accusations I think.

Well I sure though Nanook was innocent, and I feel like other people agreed with me. Dasquian

did

start to pick up some attention at the end of yesterday, but mostly because we hadn't yet talked about him.

Right now I'm positive, absolutely positive that either DP or mathcam is scum. And whoever it is, they're leaving myself and the other one alive to point fingers at today, on what might be the last day.

While I agree in principle, I think

whoever

is scum is leaving the three of us alive so that we continue to point fingers at each other. On the other hand, if the scum is Ben and Dasquian, I think I'll have to punch myself in the head.

Cam

[mathcam]

I think my leading candidate is DP right now. On top of all the previous suspicion, the "I wonder why Nanook was killed?" question just seemed a little too falsely naive for my liking.

Cam

[mathcam]

You've got to be kidding. Me and Ben? I don't think Ben is foolhardy enough to spend the entire game attacking his teammate.

Cam

[mathcam]

Heh. Fine, fine. But you're still wrong.

Cam

[mathcam]

Okay, in the middle of a read-through. Thoughts so far:

- I've found a lot of little things that made me more suspicious of DP. This might be because subcounsciously I think that DP is scum so I'm looking more closely at all of his posts.
- The one semi-major thing is that in the midst of DP's lurker hunts on day 2 (I think it was 2), he never mentioned the MAJOR lurking of No Idea (now Werebear), even though at the time, he hadn't posted in the last 2 weeks. In that time, however, he did temporarily vote for Corsato and for Diotima (now Ben).
- I'm finding Ben less and less suspicious, more because I don't think he's a mafia with any of DP, Werebear, or myself. Thus I think that the most likely pairing of Ben as a mafia is Ben and Dasquian. This is possible, of course, but almost everyone left in the game seems to think this is somewhat unlikely.

When I finish my reread, I'll probably be able to say something with more confidence, but I'm still leaning toward DP, and if I had to pick a partner, it would be either WB or Das.

Cam

[mathcam]

I think Dasquian's my best guess. From my point of view, here are the possible partnerships:

Das-Ben (quite possible)
Das-Bear (possible)
DP-Das (possible)
Ben-Bear (somewhat unlikely)
DP-Ben (somewhat unlikely)
DP-Bear (pretty unlikely)

The list is in order of which pairs I find most scummiest to least, based on all the comments I've made to myself while finishing this reread. None of these calls were easy, though...for just about every partnership I found little bits that made me less and suspicious of the partnership and little bits that made me more suspicious.

This was less true for any partnership involving Das, though this is quite likely due to his relative lack of participation as to anything about him in particular.

I feel I should also mention that I finished this last read through while trying as hard as I could to think to myself that DP was not scum, and it was pretty effective. Effective enough that I'm not too suspicious of him any more, but again, perhaps this is the subtle pull of predisposed beliefs. Sigh...stupid brain.

In conclusion, if my vote's going anywhere in the near future, it will probably head over to Das.

Cam

[mathcam]

Oh, you silly people. Bah.

Cam

[mathcam]

I'm quite positive town lost because there's now 2 scum out of 4 people. That's going to be pretty tough to get one of them lynched.

Well, Ben, at least we knew each other to be innocent. Now we can make fun of the non-scum that got me lynched.

Cam

[mathcam]

Me? Lie?

Cam

[mathcam]

It's not like Ben didn't top the chart of my most-likely-pairs thing, so I guess I can't be too indignant.

Cam

[mathcam]

Well, If you don't expect me to be scum, don't lynch me.

To the contrary, now we know that when we don't expect you to be scum, you

are

scum. Expect more reasonless bandwagonning from here on out.

Cam

[mathcam]

I don't know if I've said this before about Nanook, but I think she's an excellent player.

This is a joke, right?

Cam