Mafia 17: The Old Pond - Game over!

[Dasquian]

/confirm! *cloak cloak* <- Japanese frog (sorry)

[Dasquian]

Randomizer doesn't like massive.

vote massive

!

[Dasquian]

Haiku knowledge isn't exactly a big secret - it's 5/7/5 syllables usually with a seasonal reference in the last line. Also since the haiku on the front page was just an entertaining haiku about a haiku I didn't think anything more of it than Leo being funny. So I don't disagree with Wacky's conclusion in the slightest - he kinda jumped to it a bit, but I didn't think there was anything odd there.

*shrugs and waits for everyone to notice the game has started*

[Dasquian]

I agree that Macros' attack on UT seemed a little... grasping. But I don't think either of them are vote-worthy. I'd rather

vote Saberkitty

for not posting anything yet - and if she turns out to be strangely stone-like, we can take another look at Macros' mafia-collusion theory.

[Dasquian]

Am I in the right pond? Cos there doesn't seem to be much mafia going on here... or am I just being impatient? (still getting used to the pace of this site, so apologies if I am!)

[Dasquian]

I'm not on the leading bandwagon because, AFAICT it was started because Untrod Tripod made a vote without an accompanying post, and the subsequent suggestions of a mafia vote-swap to throw suspicion. That's fine - I understand the case against UT, and the backlash against Macros. It's just a bit worrying that we're now at deadline with one of those bandwagons and not much else.

I'd rather lynch Saberkitty because she hasn't posted

anything

this game, and Macros' argument that UT is voting for SK to confuse later voting analysis holds just as well by getting rid of SK, with the added bonus of getting rid of a quieter player. More than that, I feel we should be tossing around a few more arguments and votes before bringing day 1 to a close else we're not going to have too much to go on tomorrow.

[Dasquian]

Fair points both. I'll leave my vote where it is at the moment, but take a review of the thread before deadline time.

[Dasquian]

So if I've done my counting, SK has the most votes with 3? And it's 5 to lynch at the soon-arriving deadline? That definitely means I'm keeping my vote there so that we may actually get a lynch. I wish I had some pearls of wisdom to share from a reread of the thread, but I've only got a bit of general suspicion of UT, DP, Wacky and mathcam (I throw my net wide ).

UT for generally poor defense, although I think he's mostly been a victim of circumstances (as per my earlier posts)
DP and mathcam for erratic changes of opinion (and voting).
Wacky for using strange gambits - which always end up putting me on edge

[Dasquian]

Why vote for SaberKitty? Sure, she hasn't posted anything yet and that's why she was the last-hour bandwagon when we got deadlined, but we're not under that pressure anymore. For that reason, and your (slighty) erratic voting yesterday,

vote Dragon Phoenix

.

Although if SK doesn't talk to us soon I will probably vote for her myself [/hypocrite]

[Dasquian]

As much as I'd like to keep voting DP,

unvote DP

- although I feel he's acting a bit scummy (erratic voting today and yesterday), I sort of agree with the sentiment of routing quiet players. We're not going to find any stones when half the frogs are too afraid to kwa now, are we?

Vote Diotima

[Dasquian]

Also still here... and still voting Diotima for lack of anywhere better to put my vote.

[Dasquian]

Well... I'll go with Yggdrasil I guess. I don't see why it's a better bandwagon than Diotima's though, at least he's here *shrugs*.

Unvote Diotima, vote Yggdrasil

[Dasquian]

Ditto. I could try to rephrase that, but I'd be making exactly the same points anyway.

[Dasquian]

I thought the first one was just describing a haiku. I mean, a haiku

is

long in its middle and shorter in its end. Second one did seem to be about the crane-death, and the last one seemed to me to be a haiku about bamboo... in winter ('cos it's strong, and has a hollow centre).

Haikus in mafia
A union conceived in hell
But who should we lynch?

Reread time!

[Dasquian]

A reread of the thread, and I'm little the wiser. I've got my shortlist down to massive (for, IMO, too much attention on the haikus), Corsato (bandwagon-jumping for bandwagon-jumping) and mathcam (taking on board Werebear's logic). I'm not that suspicious of Darkblade (why is he suspicious?), and I think we could do with some replacements for Diotima and Untrod Tripod.

I'm going to

vote massive

. As well as being suspicious of him for focussing heavily on the haikus which, to me, never seemed anything more than cosmetic (mostly because this game appears to have a very "vanilla" ethos), I found Corsato's vote on Darkblade suspicious in its brevity and timing - it was right after DB dropped the second vote on massive, so looked like a fellow scum trying to start an alternative bandwagon - it appears to have worked, too

[Dasquian]

So what you're saying, Dasquian, is that both Corsato and I are scum?

Well, when two people on my List appear to be helping each other out, that feels like a decent enough reason for a vote. We could lurker-vote instead, but I feel like it's a bit of a cop-out.

[Dasquian]

massive: I've already been suspicious of you for reasons others have stated. Then, as a bandwagon builds up on you (well, 2 votes, but it looked like it was going places), Corsato (and mathcam, I guess) support your Darkblade bandwagon for a reason I thought was less-than-great.

It's not so much that you're scum if Corsato is - it's you who's suspicious. It's that Corsato's probably scum if you are, and given that I was already a bit suspicious of you then lynching you seems a good idea to me.

[Dasquian]

Silence at the pond,
Frogs lurking, hiding or gone.
A winter's cold dawn.

[Dasquian]

For my part, it's not that I want to keep players like Diotima around, it's just that I don't actually think she's lurking - I think she's totally gone As such she needs replacing or something. We could lynch her, but what would it tell us?

[Dasquian]

As much as I'd like to vote off UT for complete inactivity, should we not remember that on day 1, he posted his "bah" post when we weren't in twilight (but we thought we were), suggesting his probable innocence? I know it's not that conclusive, but it does rather suggest that he's no stone.

On the other hand I hate nothing more than someone whose attitude is "pfft, no ideas, see you in three weeks for my next post", so meh. I'm not voting him yet, in any case.

[Dasquian]

It sure is. Can we get a replacement for UT please, since he seems to be happy modding his own games in Little Italy while totally ignoring this one?

I'm not going to vote him though. I'd really like to, but I think he's innocent

[Dasquian]

I really don't see why, now UT's been replaced, there's any cause to be voting for him. He can't hope to defend UT's actions, and tbh it's doubtful UT was scum anyway (I hear your reasoning DP, I just don't agree with it ).

[Dasquian]

The problem with that is that SK presumably picked the person she thought was least likely to be mafia and most likely to be killed during the night, so unless you know how SK gets things

wrong

, then we haven't got too many leads

[Dasquian]

I know I was being a little quiet at the end of yesterday - the main reason for this was because we seemed to stop looking for scum and just start voting for anyone who wasn't posting up to scratch, and I think that that strategy is going to take straight to a dead-end in the long-run. It's a lot less of an issue now that we have a whole bunch of replacements, though (thanks guys).

Anyway, I thought the bandwagon on UT/Nanook was pointless and said as much (Mar01, Mar08), and when that one petered out FD became the target (mathcam, Mar11). I don't have any big defense for not posting the next week (day ended Mar18) - I was a bit fed up with the day and busy IRL, but everyone on the massive bandwagon was shifting to the FD one, and his apathetic defense wasn't really inspiring me to comment either way. My bad, I'll try to stay more involved.

Anyway, new day - I'm not going to vote massive straight away, but he's still top of my list. I want to analyse the voting from the end of yesterday and take a look at DP's posts too.

[Dasquian]

You're conveniently forgetting that UT was pretty much confirmed back on day 1, when he miscounted his votes and did his "Bah" post. Since Wacky (who was SK) did the misleading extra vote, we can rule out a mafia gambit to solidify his innocence. That, and the fact that it doesn't come across as UT's style anyway.

So when I said I couldn't justify voting for his inactivity, I meant just that - I was fine voting for SK and Diotima, but not fine voting for UT who I suspected was innocent. If I didn't think he was innocent, I'd have voted him. And I couldn't understand why, when the entire bandwagon was to get rid of an inactive player, people kept voting when Nanook replaced him. It made no sense - there was no other justification to the bandwagon than lynching a lurker.

[Dasquian]

OK. What's the semi-scummy play by Nanook/UT then? Because what I saw was a bandwagon on a lurker which inexplicably continued when he got replaced with someone active.

If there was actually a

reason

to have bandwagonned Nanook after he replaced UT compared to the reasonably (admittedly not conclusive) good reason

not

to, please do share.

[Dasquian]

I think "rabid" is stretching it a bit

I just looked - that "ninth" vote by Wacky came AFTER the "bah" post.

*stares* So it was. I read Ygg's post on the following page and got confused UT's bah post was after No Idea's

confirm

vote, which means I've been operating under a false assumption. Gah.

The point about bandwagonning Nanook for the sake of bandwagonning is fair enough, but I didn't recognise that for what it was at the time - it looked like people trying to force Nanook to explain UT's actions as though he had some kind of amazing explanation, which I couldn't understand the purpose of.

A longer post and a vote when I get home, hopefully.

[Dasquian]

Well, last monday I said I'd try to make a post when I got home, which is now long overdue. Sorry guys - I got swamped with work (well, work and getting drunk, which I'm afraid takes precedence ). However, deadlines have been met and hangovers have been suffered so I'm back with you.

But I'm not voting right yet. I would vote for Darkblade, but I'm not dropping the lynching vote on him after being a out of the loop for a week. I'm still suspicious of massive, but DB posting once in over a month and that one being of questionable townie-ness is a far better case IMO. If he still hasn't posted in a couple of days and we're still going, I'm happy to place the last vote.

[Dasquian]

*twiddles his thumbs*

[Dasquian]

I'm still here, with less net access and thread-scouring time than I'd like for another week or so. Some thoughts:

- massive getting killed doesn't make much sense assuming a "lynch the unlynchable players" strategy, so it's probably worth considering his interactions more closely.
- I didn't like Kerplunk's case against mathcam as it seems a little flimsy, but I'm not particularly suspicious of him for any other reasons.
- there may be something in WB's vote counts, but I'm not going to support a bandwagon that uses it as its primary argument.

I need to read back and check to see if I can find why massive might've gotten killed. No vote for now but I'll construct a proper case soon.

[Dasquian]

Still here, but in the throes of packing - I'll be back with some Insight (hopefully) when I get back home.

[Dasquian]

Sorry for being massively absent - I got hit by a triple whammy of going back to work and feeling less able to browse 600+ posts of thread than I thought I would, having a house guest for a few days, and a minor family emergency. As such, I've done no re-read.

For my suspicions though, the only one I'm half-happy stating that I'm suspicious of is Corsato, and that's for his voting around the time of the massive/Darkblade bandwagon. Werebear, DP and mathcam all seem to be the centre of attention and going at each other's throats, leading me to suspect there's at least one and quite possibly two scum of those three, but I want to put more time into reading their arguments against each other before making a call on that.

No one else really features in my scum-o-meter, though it's possibly they've just managed to slip my not-so-beady gaze.

For now though,

vote Corsato

, and can we have a vote-count please?

[Dasquian]

Well, I'm sticking with Corsato too. I've tried to wade through the thread but haven't found anything close to conclusive, but Corsato seems scummiest to me. It's mostly just gut feeling, and the support of massive's vote on the Darkblade bandwagon. That and his recent posts haven't done much to throw my gut feeling

I'd be happy switching my vote to DP to get a lynch today if that's where the votes go though - I had a lot of suspicion of him earlier on in the game where he was posting and voting erratically, and I could believe that if he's scum he was being a little less cautious then.

[Dasquian]

Sorry - I am here, and I do keep reading the thread and going, "must make a post" (as you can see by my rapid response ). Unfortunately my time has been limited and will be over the long weekend (visiting the parents) so I'll try to summarise my thoughts now:

- Not entirely surprised Corsato was scum, but can't see any obvious connections off-hand.
- Still believe Nanook is innocent for the whole UT thing right in Day 1.
- Actually most suspicious of big kahunia and bigbenwd for staying out of most of the arguments and attention (though I appreciate this applies to me too).

I promise I'll make the effort to make a full post ASAP.

[Dasquian]

Well, if you check the Queue I'd posted 20 minutes before your first post, so I was online - I've been putting off posting until I could do a proper sit-down and make a nice long post, and because the pace of the game has been slow I haven't been in a huge hurry either. I didn't realise I was at "mod-prod" point though, sorry

[Dasquian]

Right, I'm sorry I've not been posting as much recently, but I've had a reread and here's what I think:

big_kahunia - jangling lots of bells, and managing to fly under the radar quite adeptly. I'll be the first to admit that I've been quiet but big kahunia's actually been posting, but like the post on this page, not actually saying anything. In fact he's posted twice today and both of them have been "empty" posts - "woohoo, we got a scum", and "here's who's alive and a half-hearted musing".

Dragon Phoenix - I've been suspicious of him on and off throughout the game. He's seemed to go in spurts of being very rational with the occasional dischordant back-track or weird vote that I didn't understand.

NanookTheWolf - I've assumed that he's probably innocent from day 1 and I've not seen much to shake that but I don't want him to ride to victory on that assumption if he's scum, so I'm still keeping an eye on him. But he's low down on my list.

Bigbenwd - ben is unfortunately the sort of person I, in my arrogance, am liable to grossly underestimate as player due to his posting style. So I'm expecting him to slip up big if he's mafia when actually that's probably not fair at all. Still, I do think that he's escaped a fair amount of attention by not prominently arguing against anyone until today, which deserves a little more attention at least.

Werebear - There's a fair amount of scummy postings by Werebear, but nothing conclusive, nor could I see any obvious ties to Corsato (But then again, that doesn't count for as much seeing as I'd expect Werebear to have played it well). Reasonably high on my list.

Mathcam - mathcam's been flying high in my radar and tugging on my bell for most of the game which actually doesn't count against him at all; I'm led to believe that this is his normal playing style. Again I think I am getting caught up in the fact that he's an experienced player and therefore I expect Miracle Mafia Powers if he's scum at the expense of any theories I may have.


Anyway, my current points of suspicion:

a) I don't like the way bigbenwd and mathcam have interacted today. They've both voted and unvoted each other in a very short period, and yesterday ben was suggesting that mathcam and Corsato were scum together. This would be consistent with either ben being innocent and correct about mathcam, or both ben and mathcam being scum together and doing a big ole' distancing act.

b) I think if I'm gonna get accused of lurking, then big kahunia ought to be given a big long hard look for posting complete fluff in game terms

c) Both Werebear and DP can be accused of keeping a reasonable distance from voting Corsato even if there weren't any obvious connections. Also, like ben and mathcam, they appear to be taking snipes at each other in a half-hearted fashion (WB moreso than DP).

I'm going to follow WB with a

vote big_kahunia

from reasoning (b). Though I suspect mathcam/ben a little more, this is a vote that, if it has the desired effect of rousing bk into action and posting his thoughts and suspicions, will give us a fair deal more to go on.

[Dasquian]

There's seven of us, so you just dropped the third of four.

[Dasquian]

I wish I had a usual style to point at, but unfortunately I haven't played many games over here yet

To answer your earlier question DP, my (fairly confident) guess is that Nanook was killed simply for being unlikely to be lynched given both mathcam and I vocally ranked him as being probably-innocent. Furthermore, I'm surprised you thought this was odd if you'd just done a reread, particularly since you then go on to fos me, further justifying why Nanook might've been killed and not me.

FOS: DP

[Dasquian]

I assumed that since your FOS came three hours after a "I need to re-read the thread" comment, that it was from re-reading the thread

[Dasquian]

I don't share that feeling, because I'd have to be sure that ben was scum, and if I was I'd be voting for him already.

I'm more suspicious (well, and paranoid) that two out of your first group are the scum. Of them, DP currently looks most scummy but you're ranking way up there too. I can't help but worry that the purpose your above post is precisely because you and one of mathcam/DP are scum.

More thoughts later, when I can stomach the idea of a full reread

[Dasquian]

I'm not quite ready to vote yet.

And I am going to assume that ben is just trying to wind me up

[Dasquian]

OK, here we go. Thanks for waiting

bigbenwd: Has voted DP. Currently thinks the mafia is probably DP and Werebear, but has been shifting around a lot in his suspicions - at one point listing me highest on his list, and more recently ranking me lowest. Has had more interaction with mathcam, trading votes and unvotes. Was more insistent than most about lynching Corsato though.

Dragon Phoenix: Says he's ready to vote mathcam, and is very confident that the mafia is mathcam and bigbenwd, though he was more accusatory of Werebear earlier in the game. I still didn't like his logic for FOSing me earlier in the day. Voted Corsato when deadlined, but switched his vote back to Werebear when the deadline was retracted.

mathcam: Currently planning to vote me, with ben as second guess, then Werebear. Has recently had some "banter" with ben (see above) which are allegedly too obvious for them to both be scum. Seemed to defend Corsato somewhat.

Werebear: Has voted mathcam, and is confident that DP is innocent. Used (what I thought at least was) dodgy logic trying to separate the town into two groups with a scum in each. Didn't vote for Corsato.


I also took a look over Corsato's posts, to see if I could see anything damning in them. As expected, there wasn't anything particularly concrete, though I got the impression that he was hoping to get DP lynched in a way that scum-buddies wouldn't, making me less happy about voting DP. I also got a similar, but less strong vibe, about his votes for ben.

His behaviour towards mathcam is more interesting though - there are a couple of times when he registers suspicion of mathcam without really following it up, and a few restrained words of defense here and there too. mathcam also vaguely defended Corsato when his fate was still up in the air, and was spending that day putting suspicion onto ben and DP. Today he's suggesting going for me for no reason other than not posting as much (which is true - and I apologise, but I've tried to make my posts count ).

So I'm going to

vote mathcam

, just leaving the question of who his scum buddy is. I'm guessing it's Werebear - although his banter with ben was suspicious it just doesn't make as much sense. OTOH if WB is his partner, then it explains why he hasn't put much (if any) attention on him, and also why WB was keen to suggest that only one of himself, DP and cam are scum.

[Dasquian]

I'm gonna wait for Leonidas to post, I have a good feeling about our lynch

[Dasquian]

Yay *dances*

And guys, I'm really sorry about being a big lurker-head... I hate myself for doing it, but I was certain that every post I made was going to be my downfall. If it's any consolation, I spent most of the game petrified that everyone was going to turn around and kick me in the pond faster than you can say "Zen" for it.

And thanks muchly Leo, 'twas great to have the opportunity to play in a game of mafia at its purest!

[Dasquian]

So I guess the question I am left with is:

Was Corsato a sacrifice?

I can't speak for Werebear, but from my POV: not intentionally

I had already tried to tie massive and Corsato together as scum earlier in the game to no great success (massive was looking very funny at me for the suggestion, and to put it bluntly, I ph34red him ), so that procluded me from suddenly and inconsistently defending Corsato. And in any case, in a game when we know that voting patterns are a major way to get caught out, trying to slow down his lynch wagon would've been a very bad plan.

Kerplunk and massive I think were closest to the truth in the mid-game. Kerplunk in particular was very very scary when he named us all backed up with voting patterns

[Dasquian]

Wow, triple winkie. I really have to cut down on my smilie addiction.

[Dasquian]

I was in a similar predicament. You'd announced that you would vote mathcam, but were waiting on me. If I seemed too eager to place the 2nd vote on cam expecting you to place the third, you might realise you were being set up and vote me straight back (hence me throwing a lot of suspicion on WB in that post too)... so I was trying to make it look like I had done enough of a reread to not come across as a grinning imbecile nudging you to drop that final vote

Just one question: what stopped you from trying to follow Ben's lead vote on me?

I was sorely, sorely tempted, and indeed had a post ready when I saw Werebear online... but when I was ready to post, he was gone, and I didn't want to risk him not coming back before ben had returned and maybe withdrawn his vote. And, full credit to you, I found it very hard to write a post that justified a vote on you that was in any way convincing.

And getting a townie to drop the last vote is much more stylish anyway

[Dasquian]

So what would've happened with Wacky if we hadn't have killed him? Your blurb suggested that he'd become a normal townie with knowledge of one stone, or was that just flavour 'cos he was dying anyway?